April 30, 2025 • 54 mins
When we look back to medieval Europe, there are a handful legendary figures who stand out above the rest. Richard the Lionheart. Charlemagne. El Cid. And Frederick Barbarossa. A powerful emperor, focused crusader, and stubborn supporter in the middle of a papal schism, Barbarossa certainly made waves in the twelfth century, and left a lasting impression. This week, Danièle speaks with Graham Loud about how Barbarossa came to power, how he managed to reign supreme in both Germany and Italy despite some bumps along the way, and why he’s sometimes revered as a once and future king in Germany.
Listen to this episode ad-free at https://www.patreon.com/medievalists
Listen to this episode ad-free at https://www.patreon.com/medievalists
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and eighty
eight of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Zabowski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. When we look back to
medieval Europe, there are a handful of legendary figures who
stand out above the rest Richard the Lionheart, Charlemagne el
Sid and for the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick Barbarossa, a
(00:38):
powerful emperor, focused crusader, and stubborn supporter in the middle
of a papal schism. Barbarossa certainly made waves in the
twelfth century and left a lasting impression. This week I
spoke with doctor Graham Loud about Frederick Barbarossa. Graham is
Professor Emeritis and both the former director of the Institute
from Medieval Studies and head of the School of History
(01:01):
at the University of Leeds. He's the author of many
books on medieval Germany and Italy, including The Society of
Norman Italy, The Crusade of Frederick Barbarossa, and the Social
World of the Abbey of Cava circa ten twenty to
thirteen hundred. His new book is simply called Frederick Barbarossa.
(01:21):
Our conversation on how Barbarosa came to power, how he
managed to reign supreme in both Germany and Italy despite
some bumps along the way, and why he sometimes revered
as a once in future king in Germany is coming
up right after this. Well, welcome to talk about Frederick Barbarossa.
(01:42):
I haven't really talked about him very much on this podcast,
even with almost three hundred episodes under my belt, so
it's about time. Welcome, Thank you. So when we're talking
about Frederick barbaros we're talking about a whole empire that
he's about to inherit. Can you set the scene for
us when are we talking about and what sort of
(02:03):
territory is involved.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, what we call the Empire or what later became
known as the Holy Roman Empire, effectively comprises the kingdoms
of Germany and Italy. When once talking about Germany in
the Middle Ages, you have to imagine a space which
is slightly different to Germany today. It included most of
what we'd now call Belgium and Holland, Switzerland, Austria, and
(02:32):
the king of Italy was essentially the kingdom of Northern Italy.
Barbarossa himself became King of Germany in eleven fifty two,
succeeding his uncle Corner of the Third, and he was
crowned emperor in eleven fifty five, and he had a
very long reign. He was king for thirty eight years
(02:56):
and he died in eleven ninety whi part of the
Third Crusade. So it's probably about the longest reign of
any German monarch throughout the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And this is pretty spectacular because when he comes to
the imperial throne he's already twenty nine, so people might
have been thinking this might not be a hugely long rain.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes. I mean one of his achievements, if you can
call it that is he outlived virtually all his contemporaries.
I mean he's actually by the time he was crowned
emperor he was thirty two, but he lived to be
probably sixty seven sixty eight, which by the standards of
the Middle Ages was a very long time.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, and he was able to well not achieve everything
he wanted to achieve. So maybe we need to get
into the things that he wanted to achieve, because as
you've said, this is a huge geographical area that he
inherits or when he takes the imperial throne. I think
that maybe we could get into how he takes it,
but he really starts to look at the edges of
(04:05):
the Empire, especially the Italian states city states, trying to
get them more involved in being part of the imperial project.
So maybe we can get into how he became the
emperor in the first place, because that wasn't a foregone conclusion,
and then look at some of his projects.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
No, not at all, And indeed, to quit the how
he actually became King of Germany. Whilst a fairly murky story,
Frederick and his advisors naturally claimed that he succeeded his uncle.
This was his uncle's wish, and you know, it was
(04:44):
all a perfectly normal process. In fact, that looks to
be quite untrue. His uncle left a son, but that
son was only a relatively small child. It looks as
though Conrad, just before his death, was intending to hold
a council where he would designate his son as king
(05:08):
as effectively his successor, but he died before he could
do that, and Frederick moved very fast to secure his
own election as King of Germany and then his coronation,
which happened only three days after his election at Frankfurt.
He's an Arkham, which is quite a long way away
(05:28):
being crowned. It all looks very hasty and effectively. Therefore
it's a usurpation. Admittedly, he made provision for his nephew.
I think that was probably part of the deal that
his nephew would become Duke of Swabia, that he would
be given a ladded endowment, he would have an honorable
position within the nobility of the kingdom. It's not quite
(05:50):
like Richard third, but he still took over the throne
when his predecessor had not intended this. Now having done so,
he spends a lot of his reign being concerned with Italy,
as you said, But I would take issue with these
slightly because Italy isn't really a peripheral part of the Empire.
(06:13):
Italy to the medieval rulers is just as much part
of their dominions as Germany is. The whole question about
the emperor's Italian policy was rather confused in the nineteenth century,
when there were debates among German historians about whether the
medieval emperor's preoccupation with Italy was distorting the future of
(06:35):
the Reich. But that sort of terminology tells us much
more about political debates in the age of Bismarck than
it does about the Middle Ages. Frederick was, however, very
conscious of the fact that his immediate predecessors had not
been in Italy very much. Indeed, Conrad in the fourteen
(06:56):
years he was king hadn't been to Italy at all,
and before that, the emperor's visits over about half a
century had been few and far between, and fairly rapid,
and generally only concerned with going to Rome to receive
their imperial coronation. And in what was essentially a power vacuum,
(07:17):
the Italian cities had started to become more and more independent.
They developed their own machinery of government, they developed communes
sworn associations of the leading citizens to govern themselves, and
they'd more or less gone on quite happily without worrying
too much about the emperor. But Frederick felt he had
(07:39):
to do something about this. It's very much a case
of use it or lose it. But also, I mean,
if he could rule over Italy effectively, he could actually
ensure a considerable income from Italy, because Italy was economically
more advanced in Germany. There are more towns, there's more
trade for the ruler to exploit this through jews on trade,
(08:04):
levies on the town profits of justice, and bringing this
in in cash where it's interesting that quite a lot
of the emperor's income from his states in Germany is
still in kind rather than cash. So there are material
reasons as well as the obvious wish not to forego
(08:25):
any of his rights and powers as ruler. And he
did spend a great deal time in Italy. I mean
he made six expeditions to Italy during his reign, two
three of which were really quite extended, I mean particularly
eleven fifty eight sixty two and again at eleven seventy
four to a loven seventy eight. So he spent a
(08:47):
long time in Italy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I wanted to ask you, as part of this we
were talking about the practicalities of it and also inheriting
the rights as an emperor, how much do you think
that consolidating power in Italy had to do with his
perhaps personal wanting and identity that is Roman, Because this
is when the Roman Empire starts to sort of recede
(09:10):
from much of Europe. It's being taken over by this
idea of what the German and Italian states are still
continuing to call the Roman Empire. So how much do
you think of this as Frederick wanting to continue being
thought of, at least in his own mind, maybe as
being part of this heritage of romanness.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's a very good question, and it's actually quite a
difficult one, because I think we've got separate Frederick himself
may have believed and the picture we are presented by
some of his advisors, particularly in the biography written of
him by his uncle, Bishop Otto of Freisa. Though Otto
(09:50):
died before he could complete this, but he and his
secretary Rajewen wrote this biography which covers the first eight
years of the run, and that is a lot of
Roman in it. But of course, what a highly educated
bishop may have thought about being Roman, and what a
ruler who, whatever his intelligence, couldn't, for example, read maybe
(10:14):
another matter. But certainly, I mean Frederick was probably conscious
the fact that he was the successor to the Roman Empress.
He ruled over not all, but a substantial part of
what had once been the Western Roman Empire, and he
certainly is very concerned with what contemporaries call the honor imperi,
(10:37):
literally the honor of the Empire. But I think we
should take this as reputation. Perhaps it's a difficult word
to translate that he does not want to diminish the
rights which belonged to the emperor, not just for his
own sake, but for his success as well.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, he ended up having quite a lot of sons,
which was useful to him leader in life. I'm thinking
about his work in Italy or his attempts to really
consolidate that power in Italy being fueled by his territories
in Germany. So how did the people around him in
the German areas feel about this moving into Italy and
(11:17):
really consolidating power there, because that is still a geographic
long way to go, it is.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Indeed, But of course it was traditional for there to
be expeditions to Italy. Every previous ruler for two centuries
bar Corner of the Third had gone to Rome to
receive imperial coronation. Of course, they don't go alone, they
go with an army, so it wasn't unusual. Of course,
(11:43):
German princess and nobles could often be given possessions in
Italy or given positions in Italy to begin with. At least,
there's really it was a big involvement in the expeditions
to Italy. The second expedition of eleven fifty was huge.
There's over fifty major figures from Germany were involved, princes
(12:09):
and major nobles. Later on there are rather fewer, But
I think that's when the economic pressure of continual service
in Italy starts to hit home, and we do have
occasional complaints about the burden of this. We're told right
at the end of the reign that Archbishop Christian of Minz,
(12:31):
who was archbishop who died in eleven eighty three, who
for much of the eleven seventies and eighties was Frederick
barbaross lieutenant in Italy when he wasn't there, had bankrupted
his archbishopric by continually being in Italy with gained his
own army. I don't think it's necessarily that German princes
(12:53):
and counts didn't want to serve in Italy, but I
think by the eleven seventies they were starting to feel
the burden of this because they were going to Italy
a lot more on the Barbarossa than they had been
under his predecessors.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes, and it wasn't always successful. In fact, in the
end it ended up being very unsuccessful in Italy, which
I would think would stir up some bad feelings back
in the German lands.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well, I don't know about bad feelings, possibly disappointment, But yes,
you're right that in the end, Barbaross's Italian policy unraveled
fairly spectacularly, and far from imposing his authority on the
Lombard cities, he had to do a deal with them,
and that was after he'd suffered a fairly major military
(13:43):
defeat at the Battle of Lenaro in eleven seventy six.
But of course the question of the relations with the
Italian cities was complicated by a Barbarossa's relationship with the papers.
That's a rather tangled story.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well I want to get to that. Maybe I can
get there sort of indirectly. And you mentioned his real
reliance on a certain archbishop. And if we look through
the story as you have laid it out in your book,
there are so many archbishops who are right there getting
onto the battlefield just about. They are part of the expedition.
They are supplying soldiers and money in order to make
(14:23):
this all work. So can we talk for a minute
about how the archbishops, these powerful archbishops are supporting Frederick
and what his sort of reciprocal agreement with them is,
because this is sort of what makes the papacy a
little bit uncomfortable, at least partly well.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
The German Church had certain very sense unusual characteristics. Most
of the German bishop brics and archbishoprics were very wealthy.
They had extensive laws, and on those lanes they had
military followers. When we think of and archbishops, you shouldn't
(15:05):
be thinking so much of unworldly religious figures. These people
were aristocrats. The German Church is very aristocratic. These are
the younger sons or younger brothers of counts or territorial lords.
They may be brought up as churchmen, but they're very
conscious of their aristocratic descent, and when they're in office,
(15:32):
they're very very powerful. And the emperors relied a lot
on their churchmen. I mean, you can't not use territorial
princes for your rule, particularly as in Germany, when there's
no real structure of government. In our terms, the king
(15:53):
has an administration which rules its own lands, but he's
not of an administration which rules over his kingdom, unlike
say the rulers of England at this period, or the
Kingdom of Sicily, where they are developing an actual royal
administration which rules their kingdom. That's not there in Germany.
The emperor has to rely on the great landowners, and
(16:16):
that includes the clerics, the bishop's archbishops, and the abbots
of the major monasteries. And we should see most of
these products as pretty worldly figures. And Archbishop Christian of Minz,
whom I've mentioned, was more notable as a warrior than
a churchman. I think. One not very admiring contemporary remarked
(16:39):
that he was a devotee of Mars rather than Saint Martin.
And he was alleged once to have killed I think
it was nine men personally with his mace in a
battle in Italy. Whether or not that's true, we can't
be certain, but it certainly does suggest a man of
(17:02):
notable piety and gentleness. But these people's interests were very
much working with the emperor. Yes, the emperor relies on
their support, but at the same time, individual preluts did
not want to get on the wrong side of the
Emperor because he could be a very bad enemy.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He's a very stubborn and persistent enemy, and this happens
when there ends up being a paper skism. But the
last thing I want to get at when we're talking
about bishops and archbishops is Fredick was very much about
holding on to the right to appoint these people, right.
This was something that he really wanted to make sure
that he didn't let go of in terms of power.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, the appointment of preluts is quite a sticky issue
in that in theory these should, of course, by canon
law have been elected by their cathedral chapters without interference.
But that theory, of course, in practice there was quite
(18:03):
a lot of interference, particularly because an earlier treaty with
the Papercy in eleven twenty two, while it had in
theory guaranteed freedom of election, had in practice said that
the emperor could intervene if there was a dispute, and
also that elections could happen at the Imperial Court. Now
(18:25):
there are just over forty bishoprics and archbishoprics in Germany.
At this period, probably some of the less important and
more peripheral bishoprics were allowed of free election, but the
wealthy ones, the archbishoprics, and some of the key bishoprics
(18:46):
in South Germany. The emperor does in practice keep a
very close control over the choice, and a lot of
the time, for example, the clerics who write his documents,
particularly the chancellors. The head of his writing, was almost
inevitably rewarded by being given a bishopric.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yes, yes, that's part. You have a quote in here saying,
please appoint my chancellor. I will consider it basically a
personal favor, and things will go really well for you
if you disappoint this chancellor. It doesn't seem to be
an option at all. This is very much a directive.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
The thing he doesn't actually say, and that's the communication
to the Chapter of Cologne in eleven sixty seven. But
what is implied He doesn't say, if you don't appoint
the person I want, then you're in trouble. Yes, you're
in really big trouble.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yes, not subtle. And so he's already got sort of
prickly relationships with the Greater Church in Rome because they're
not a big fan of this, because, as you say,
kenon Law says it should be the church that picks
the bishops. So things are already prickly. And then there
is a schism. Can you tell us what happens with
the schism?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah? Well, although certainly I have no doubt at Rome
they didn't approve of too much of sort of royal
interference of bishoprics, but in practice they knew they had
to put up with that, providing the bishops appointed were
at least sort of reasonably respectable and weren't obvious sinners.
They were prepared to put up with that, not least
(20:18):
because there had been this treacy in eleven twenty two,
which had done a deal which allowed the Emperor some powers,
though not as much as he'd exercised before. The system
comes for rather different reason. It's simply a disputed election
within the College of Cardinals. In eleven fifty nine, when
(20:38):
Adria and the Fourth died, the College of Cardinals split.
One group of cardinals elected one cardinal's pope, another group
elected another one as pope. Both claimed to be the
drag Pope, but it happened that one was somebody who'd
already got on the wrong side of Frederic Barbarossa, the
papal Chancellor or Land of whom Barbarossa didn't like, and
(21:03):
the other candidate, Cardinal Octavian, was a long time alive Barbarosss,
So although his Barbaross' first say right we'll hold the
Church council. The Church council decide who the rightful pope is.
And I'm calling this council in northern Italy in three
(21:24):
months time. Rolando Bandinelli. Pope Alexander the Third, as he
calls himself, says, no, you've no right to do this.
This is a matter for the church layman. Shouldn't interfere
in anyway. I'm the legitimate pope. This is none of
your business. Cardinal Octavian Victor the Fourth says, oh, I'll
turn up at the council and I' present my case.
(21:46):
So guess which one the council decided was the legitimate pope.
The problem was that although for the most part Germany
in Italy supported Victor the Fourth, nobody else did, and
every other kingdom in Europe France, England, Spanish kingdoms, Sicily,
(22:06):
Jerusalem all came down for Alexander the Third, who seemed
to have run a much better diplomatic campaign than Barbarossa
and his pope did, And to be fair, Alexander the
Third had rather more cardinals on his side than Victor
the Fourth did. Although the canon law of the election
(22:27):
was at this point not really established, it was still
believed that under God's guidance, the cardinals would miraculously all
decide on who the best man was to choose his pope.
But nobody had yet laid down what they'd do, and
they couldn't agree. And it was only later, on eleven
seventy nine, right at the end of his long pontificate,
(22:49):
the Alexander the Third laid down a clear rule for
when a pope is actually elected, which is when he
had the support of two thirds of the cardinals, or
to stall a rule today. And indeed we will see
in a few weeks time whoever Pope France's successor will be,
he will have to secure the support of two thirds
(23:11):
of the cardinals in the conc live.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yes, I imagine when people are listening to this, at
least at the time we're recording, they haven't had the
conclave yet, so people are probably thinking about the current
decision that's being made. Plus the movie that is actually
quite excellent about the conclave. So Barbarossa, he has bad
blood with the pope that everyone else likes Alexander, And
(23:33):
this lasts way way beyond reason in that when the
antipope will call the antipope. For clarity, I suppose when
he dies, another one is elected, and Barbarossa continues to
support antipopes against even what the people in his own
empire really want. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yes, I mean Victor the fourth did have some support.
It's not a majority Christen, but he's generally supported in
Germany and over quite a lot of northern Italy, which
at that stage is still reasonably quiescent and reasonably ready
to accept Barbaross's orders. His successors have less and less support,
(24:18):
And I think had Barbarossa been wise, and had he
not been so clearly emotionally invested and feeling that his
prestige required him to support his pope, he probably would
have been wise to bail out. After the death of
Victor the fourth and eleven sixty four, and certainly after
(24:38):
the death of the second anti pope in eleven sixty eight.
And it was that alex Land of the third was
being entirely unreasonable. He wanted to be recognized as the
legitimate pope. But it's notable, despite this very long dispute,
he never tried to invalidate Barbaross's right to be ruler.
(25:00):
One hundred years before, when there's been a major row
between Gregory the seventh and the Amprehendry of the Fourth.
Gregory had eventually proclaimed that Henry the fourth was deposed
as a disobedient ruler. Alexander the third doesn't do that,
and it's pretty clear that from eleven sixty nine onwards
he's putting out peace feelers and his supporters, with his encouragement,
(25:24):
are talking to Barbaross's court and saying, can we do
a deal? And it seems to be largely Barbaross's obstinacy
which prevents them doing a deal. And in the end
it was almost certainly the German bishops who persuaded it. Look,
this has gone on too long. The current anti pope
(25:45):
has got very little support. You really have to give
in on this one, which he eventually does, but only
in eleven seventy seventh. So if Barbarossa has a fourth ruler,
he's very very obstot.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Well, this is a very interesting part of his psychology,
if we can call it that, or get close to that.
In that One of the things that you mentioned in
your book is amongst the bishops and the princes, they
kind of agree amongst themselves that they're going to agree
with Frederick publicly, especially about this papal a schism, and
maybe work quietly towards peace, but not to say it
(26:24):
out loud, because this is a bad idea. Do I
have that right?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yes? I mean the obvious danger of those who'd actually
stood out publicly for Alexander. The third was that in
the end they tended to lose their seas, and I
don't think these German bishops wished to lose their positions.
It was much more a matter of saying to the Emperor,
don't you think it'd be a good idea if you
(26:49):
did a deal on this one. You can see that,
you can see why they did this, and you have
to see their point. But there was a case because
in eleven sixty far four or five, the Archbishop of
miz Conrad of Littelsbach did come out publicly for Alexander
and fled from Germany to Alexander's corps, and Frederick basically
(27:12):
declared him to pose, said right, he's resigned, we'll have
another archbishop. So that was quite a sort of red
flag to other bishops saying don't stop out a line.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yes, well, it's a smart policy, especially if you feel
like you might be able to accomplish things quietly even
if you can't do it publicly. And I think this
is something that we see sort of throughout history, but
it's definitely something that you pulled out when it comes
to this particular reign. So maybe it's time to talk
about his policy when it comes to the princes, because
(27:44):
this is one of the things that you mentioned in
the book as being sort of significant within Frederick's reign
and then in the time afterwards, where he doesn't work
to consolidate power in the terms that we were talking
about before, like England and Ci where there is a
sort of a centralization of power. Here, there are still
a lot of well I'm calling them princes, but nobles
(28:07):
that have their own sort of distinct power, and this
is something that Frederick sort of leaves alone and in
some ways fragments further by creating new duchies, by creating
new nobles. So tell us a little bit about how
this works with the German nobility at this point.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, an obvious point to make about Germany is it's
a very very big kingdom. I mean, one of the
points about England Sicily, I mean, there are all sorts
of complex reasons. We can't go into now why they
develop precocious royal administrations, but one of the points is
they're both relatively small. England was reasonably coherent long tradition
(28:48):
of fairly centralized rulership. Germany had always been decentralized. Back
in say the tenth eleventh century, there's a small number
of dutchess what we might call principalities. They're not the
personal possession of the dukes, but they were rather the
(29:08):
royal vice regents ruling over them. But increasingly the major families,
the sort of twelve or fifteen major families in Germany
started building up their own private possessions. This is still
going on in Barbarossa's reign, but it's probably the dominant
feature of German society in the late eleventh, twelfth early
(29:33):
thirteenth century, the consolidation of these local power blocks by
big and important families like the Little Spark, the Velfs
and the Chaffron. Barbarossa's own family who build up a
huge power block in southwest Germany. And the emperor's rule
in many ways is quite hands off all he wants,
(29:56):
and it's particularly the case of Barbarossa because he's in
Italy for so much of the time. I mean, over
a sort of twenty five years of the reign, Frederick
spent about fourteen years in Italy. What his major concern
is there's no trouble in Germany. He doesn't want there
to be conflict between the different princes because that would
(30:17):
prevent him going to Italy or would call him back
if he was in Italy, and that would prevent the
German aristocrats contributing troops to his army and helping him
in Italy. So basically he's trying to keep the big
wigs happy, and in a way that's not too difficult.
I mean, his major role as ruler is to mediate
(30:39):
between disputes and generally to arrange that if there are
disputes between princes, there's a compromise which keeps everybody happy
or as many people happy as possible. And he's quite
good at that. I mean, for all his possible failings
as a diplomat in dealing with the papacy or in Italy,
(31:00):
he actually does know how to manipulate the German princes.
What he's also doing in Germany is building up his
own family's resources, particularly in the later part of his reign,
there's no doubt. I mean he was. He had far
more power, far greater lands, far more castles, far more
(31:21):
vassals than any other aristocrat in Germany by the eleven ases.
And of course, if you've got extensive lands, that means
not just wealth but military power. Admittedly they're mainly in
central and southern Germany, but Barbarossa at the height of
his own probably controlled two hundred castles. The next most
(31:44):
powerful prince in Germany, Henry the Lion, who was Duke
of Saxony and Bavaria, had maybe fifty and Henry the
Lion eventually has a nasty fall. So after eleven eighty,
if there wasn't anybody as powerful as that.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Maybe it's we're taking a second to tell everybody what
happens with Henry the Lyon, because this is a name
that will have come up for people who are more
familiar with English history, perhaps because Henry the Lyon marries
into the Royal House of England. So what happens with
Henry the Lion. He's not the most tactful diplomat, and
we're talking about tactful diplomat, he's not one of them.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
No. I mean, Henry the Lyon was doing just what
a lot of other leading aristocrats were doing, building up
his own power and sources. But he seems to have
been both very good at this and very ruthless. And
he's good at making enemies. He's also very powerful and
very well connected. As you say, he's married the daughter
(32:45):
of King Henry the Second of England. When he went
on Pilgrims Truso eleven seventy two. At least according to
the one surviving account of that we have, which was
written by somebody from Saxony, the design Ti Emperor treated
him virtually is an equal, as indeed did the Turkish
Sultan of Asia Minor. And you can't help getting the
(33:08):
impression that Henry the Lyon got a bit too big
for his boots. There's a fair bit of hubris there,
and he made more and more enemies, and eventually his
enemies ganged up on him. Now they tried this several
times during the round, but Barbarossa had always protected him.
Remember Henry the Lams, Barbaross's cousin. He'd also played quite
(33:31):
a big part in helping in Barbaross's seizure of the throne.
At eleven fifty two, but relations cooled between them. I
think Barossa became aware that Henry the Lion was getting
very powerful and getting pretensions. But also he refused to
help Barbarossa in Italy in the eleven seventies, and Barbarossa
(33:54):
needed help in Italy in the eleven seventies, and it
all went horribly wrong, So I think why there the
Empress asked to hold a grudge. Secondly, Henry was alienated
from the Emperor because there was a dispute about succession
to Barbaross's cousin and Henry's uncle, Duke Valf the sixth.
(34:16):
He was the other leading member of the same the
Wealth family. Valf the sixth only son died in Italy
and the question was who was going to inherit. Henry
the Lyon clearly thought he was, but Barbarossa managed to
buy dint of basically a lot of bribery, managed to
persuade Wealth the sixth to make him and his sons
(34:37):
his heir, which clearly annoyed Henry the Lyon considerably. So
by eleven eighty relations between the two are pretty cool,
and when at eleven eighty Henry the Lyon's enemies, which
is just about anybody who had lands around his, headed
by the archbishops of Cologne and Magdeburgh, wanted to fight,
(34:58):
though barbaross so effectively said, go on and do it.
And Henry the land has declared an outlaw. You've declared
deprived of all the land. Health's imperial thiefs and of
his duchess and other people were appointed to them, and
the Duchess of Bavaria and Saxony were both split from
(35:19):
the impred That's quite clever, because of course you don't
have somebody with quite the same powers Henry of the
Lon had. It also rewards one or two people who
had been conspicuously loyal to notably or to Vittle Spark,
who becomes the new Duke of Bavaria, who was one
of Barbaross's closest associates as far as we can see,
(35:40):
probably one of his closest friends. But Barbarossa didn't profit
directly from the fall of Henry of the Lon. He
doesn't get any new land. The lands all redistributed, but
to several people, not to one. So the effect is
to create more princess aristocrats who are directly dependent on
the nobody else, which probably helps the Emperor. He didn't
(36:04):
want somebody quite as sort of powerful and quite as
ambitious and quite as arrogant as Henry the larm.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I guess it takes one to know one.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, probably, But Henry the land does seem to have
been spectacularly tactless. His father, who seems to be very similar,
have the nickname Henry the Proud. I think it could
applied just as well to Henry the Lyon in the end.
I mean, he was allowed to keep his personal freehold
lands in Brunswick, but nothing else.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
This is still amazing tightrope walking for the Emperor, because
in other situations and other places where you have a
class with a noble, it goes very badly. But Henry
the Lyon seems to accept what's happening to him. He
doesn't rally troops, he doesn't bring in his allies from
other places. It sort of settles out pretty well considering
(37:01):
how badly it could go.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
He didn't have many allies, I mean, he'd had one
or two before, but it's notable when he fell out
with the Emperor, with the other nobility of North Germany,
his allies tended to desert him and get on the
winning side. He was allied by marriage with the King
of Denmark, who married one of his daughters. But when
(37:25):
Barbarossa takes a personal role in the campaign against Saxony,
the King of Denmark changes sides and helps Barbarosso similarly,
several of Henry, the lions, leading nobles and Saxony change sides,
and in a couple of cases there seems to be
after they had had a dispute with Henry about who
(37:46):
actually got various prisoners who'd been taken and their ransoms.
Henry said no, they're mine, and so at least a
couple of his leading counts then deserted him and went
over to Abarossa. There is a moral there.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I think it's got to be pride go with before
a fall.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Absolutely all monarchs, some medieval monarchs some extent, have this
type rope. I mean, even for say a King of England.
If you fall out with the noble, you want to
fall out with only one or two of them, not
too many, which just where for example, one hundred and
fifty years later, up the second goes wrong, he alienates
(38:28):
nearly everyone.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yes, there's that moral lesson again. So things are settled out,
they're going okay in the Empire. And then there is
news from Jerusalem, because we do need to get to
what happens to Frederick in the end. So there's news
from Jerusalem. What happens next.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Well, fast forwarding now through eleven eighty seven, and in
eleven eighty seven, Saladin, the Sultan of Egypt and Damascus,
conquered or invaded and conquered most of the Kingdom of
Jerusalem and annihilated the army of the Kingdom of Jerism
at the Battle of Hateen, And in October eleven eighty
seven he took Jerusalem City, the Holy City of Christendom.
(39:09):
This was clearly a tremendous shock to Western Europe. I
think in part because the kings of Jerusalem and their
nobles had been sending appeals for help for at least
a generations, saying, oh, we're in desperate trouble. The kingdoms
were set was surrounded by enemies. We need help immediately.
But not much had happened. They'd generally been okay. They
(39:33):
had one or two minor setbacks, but the king ra
Jews was still that and suddenly it was swept away
in the matter of a few weeks, and the loss
of Jerusalem really does concentrate mines the Nadieval West. I
mean Barbarossa had still been arguing with the popes in
the mid eleven eighties, particularly after eleven eighty five with
(39:55):
the election of the former Archbishop of Milan as Pope
Urban the Third. Relations were really quite poor. But as
soon as the news of the clubs of the Holy
Land comes they forget about that. That doesn't matter. And
remember Barbarossa had already been a crusader once, he'd been
on the Second Crusade eleven forty seven, eight before he'd
(40:16):
become king, when he'd been effectively the second in command
of the German contingent, led by his uncle Connell of
the Third. Of course, the Second Crusade hasn't been a
great success, in fact, it had been something for shambles.
But he had been before, and of course he'd also
had an object lesson of how not to conduct a crusade.
(40:36):
And as soon as the news of the fall of
the Holy Land became clear, the pope start trial lists
the king's the German Emperor, the King of France, the
King of England. In a new crusade, and barbaross was
clearly receptive. We know he went to meet the King
of France in December eleven eighty seven, and while we
(40:59):
don't have a record of war, they discussed. I can't
help thinking the crusade was front and center. And he
took the cross in May eleven eighty eight and gathered
a very large army set off a year later. But
this wasn't that there was a lot of delay. It
was the year was spent organizing the army, finding the money,
(41:21):
persuading people to join up, and making sure that the
people who did join were suitable. One of the things
we're told is that Barbaros sends some people home because
they're basically they're not warriors. They don't have the resources,
they don't have the military skill. He wants this to
be a military expedition and not one with a huge
(41:44):
trail of camp followers, a second crusade. You know, these
people have got to be fed, so if they haven't
got any military value, you don't want them there. And
he set off on crusade in May eleven eighty nine
by the land route through the Balkans near Constantinople, across
the Dardanelles and then through Asia Minor, and one of
(42:08):
the things he'd been doing during the year of preparation
was intensive diplomatic activity to try and ensure that he
actually had free passage. So he sends envoys to the
Byzantine Emperor, to the Turkish Sultan, to the King of Hungary,
to various princess and the Balkans, aim say I'm coming
(42:29):
through with my army. I won't do any harm, but
please ensure that markets are available so my men can
buy supplies. And to the Christians anyways, saying we're going
to Jerusalem. This is a good thing. By letting me through,
your contribute to the welfare of Christendom. Well, it works
a bit. There is a lot of trouble with the
(42:50):
Byzantine Emperor, who was clearly not particularly keen on having
a large foreign army marching through his kingdom, and was
of course always potential dispute between the Emperor Constantinople and
the German Emperor over who really was the Roman Emperor,
because both of them thought they could only be one
and it's me. In the end, after a fair bit
(43:14):
of skirmishing and Barbaross's country living off the land in
the southern Balkans for quite a long time. He persuaded
emperors at the second of Constantinople to allow him passage
across the Bosporus and provide ships and provide markets in
Western Asia Minor. He got into Central Asia Minor, into
Turkish territory, having been negotiating with the sultan earlier, but
(43:39):
then discovered that he was getting attacked. The Germans clearly
thought this was treacherally. In fact, I think it was
simply the Turkish Sultan's power was so weak that he
couldn't control his followers and couldn't control the various nomadic
tribes who had moved into Central Asia Minor. But anyway,
the Germans fight the way through the pretty effectively. They
(44:02):
get to solicitine Armenia friendly territory Christian territory. And then
on tenth of June eleven ninety, as the army was
crossing a river, Frederic Barbaros had drowned either he fell
off his horse, as one account, as he was crossing
the river, and remember he was sixty seven sixty eight
(44:25):
or the count I rather like. He got across the river,
they stopped for lunch. It's a very hot day, so
he went to off a swim after lunch and then drowned.
You take a choice. But after that his second son,
his second in command, Frederic Dukeswebia, took command, brought the
army to Antioch Christian territory northern Syria, and then it
(44:49):
was destroyed by an epidemic. So in the end it
didn't contribute a great deal, though it was hardly Barbarossa's fault.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Well, considering he wasn't around anymore, I don't think he
can take that.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
The epidemic was well, it was one of the problems
medieval armies had when you've got inadequate sanitation. They'd be
clearly been on short Russians for a very long time,
go through Asia Minor. We don't know quite what it was,
but my guess probably be disantry.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yes, it's likely, isn't it. So as we come to
the end here, Frederick has drowned. He didn't make the
in roles he wanted to in the Holy Land, and
that could also be said about Italy. And then he
didn't consolidate power in the way that people often admire
when it comes to rulers in history, right, making that
(45:37):
empire really surrounding one person, unifying, and yet Frederick Barbarossa
is considered one of Germany's best, one of the best
Holy Roman emperors. Ever. What do you think contributes to
his reputation? Why do people love him? He's almost a
once in future king sometimes in consideration of him. So
what do you think makes him such a legendary figure
(45:59):
in his region?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, I'd see Barbarossa's a rather paradoxical figure. I mean,
on surface, at the end of his reign, he was
still very very powerful. He's undisputed emperor, ruled Germany. In Italy,
the princes do what he says. He's still very much
in control in Germany, and although he'd had to do
(46:23):
a deal with the Lombard Cities, he had actually recovered
a certain amount of ground in Italy. Having decided that
he couldn't conquer the Lombard cities, he did actually try
and schmooze them. He was actually much more successful at that,
and he was still very much in control of Tuscany
in central Italy. So superficially he's very very powerful, and
(46:46):
of course dying on crusade fighting for Christendom, it looks
pretty good that's the way a great emperor probably might
have wanted to go out. And I mean his management
of the crusade shows he's actually pretty good compared with
the hash Connor of the Third had made it. Of
the second Crusade, Barbarossa had really learnt the lessons. His
(47:08):
army is better disciplined, there's far few and non combatants.
His diplomacy is much more effective, and he keeps his
eye on the ball and keeps sort of heading for
the Holy Land. So superficially you could pretty good. His son,
eldest son, Henry, was already designated king. He succeeds without trouble.
(47:32):
Henry was married to the heirest of the Kingdom of Sicily.
He eventually acquires the Kingdom of Sicily. It all looks
very good in the short term. Now, I would argue
in the long term, the seeds of the collapse of
the Empire were already sown. And it's particularly in Germany,
where it's the princes who were consolidating their local authority
(47:52):
in a way that the emperor wasn't. And in the
early thirteenth century, imperial power in Germany arshly declines, and
it's made worse by the fact that Barbaross's grandson, for
it at the second, was an absentee for most of
his reign. The future in Germany lay with the princess,
(48:12):
and by the late Middle Ages you have the German
kings who are very much first among equals and no
more really ruled, but don't reign and only very occasionally
actually get to go to Rome to be crowned emperor,
and Germany fragments and fragments. Meanwhile, the cities of northern
(48:35):
Italy become more and more independent, and some of them,
like Milan and Florence, start to build up not just
a territory immediately around the city, but a sort of
state with lots of subordinate cities. And all this was
going on without the nominal rule of the emperor being
in a position to intervene. So in the long run,
I think Barbarosss reign did see a really crucial stage
(48:58):
in the hemorrhagey of imperial power, but it wasn't apparent
at the time, and you know, to Romantics in the
nineteenth century he seemed like a great ruler, and so
when finally Germany was reunited in eighteen seventy and they
were looking for sort of role model. It's Barbarossa. And
(49:19):
of course that's shown in some of the public monuments Villamine, Germany,
the Kefoisa Mountain, there's the great statue of Kaiser Filhelm
first Alice Foot the statue of Barbarassa. You can't make
the linkage much clearer than that.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yes, well, I think that from listening to us speak
about Frederick, I think people will have a better idea
of what this actual person was like, well he actually accomplished,
rather than the romantic idea that gets passed down to us.
So I'm hoping people will read your book, find out
more about him and dig into this historical character because
(49:56):
he is a fascinating person to learn about. So thank
you so much for coming on the podcast and telling
us all about him.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Well, thank you very much, Donald, I very much destoryed it.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
To find out more about Graham's work, you can visit
his faculty page at the University of Leeds. His new
book is Frederick Barbarossa. Before we go, here's Peter from
Medievalist Net to tell us what's on the website. What's up, Peter?
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Hey, Hey, So have you ever wondered what it felt
like to be hit by a lance from a night
on horseback.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I haven't wondered that. Actually, I figure it's going to
hurt a lot, and I don't really want to spend
the time imagining how much it's going to hurt.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
Why do you ask, Well, since you don't want to
do experimental archaeology, we have to turn to physics. And
this is really fun journal from physics students at the
University of Leicester. They have great, great topics that they
can't look into science fiction stuff and fantasy, and they
sometimes delve into the medieval. So they actually calculated what
(50:57):
the energy output is hit by a night on a
horseback coming down with the lance. All right, The calculations,
which are a lot, come down to fifty three kilojewles
of energy being transferred.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That sounds like a lot, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
It's the equivalent of being hit by a Honda Civic
going about thirty kilometers per hour.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
You want to have good armor and good padding underneath
that armor if you're gonna get hit by that lance.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yeah. Yeah. They also show you know why it always
breaks the lance, or it usually breaks the lance, because
that's more energy than they wood can take.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Mm hm, and now we can really appreciate that they're
not falling off every single time. Like that takes some
serious abstract I think.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
I think. So it's good on those nights. Hmm. So
we have that plus this piece about hygiene. And you
know we always say that, you know, you know, Middle
Ages wasn't the greatest for hygiene, right do.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
We always say that or who always says that kids, Well, not.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Be quite that true, but you know, sometimes it is
all right. But if you lived in Kordoba, the kind
of the city now and ois between the tenth and
thirteenth century, man, you had a really good sewage system.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Really Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
They took their hygiene very seriously and they developed like
a really intricate set of like underground sewers. They did
all sorts of things to keep their city clean, and
according to the authors of that studies like Europe wouldn't
see a system like that effective until the twentieth century. Wow, awesome,
So good on the people at Cordoba.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, seriously, that is what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
So we have that plus much more control, including how
to destroy your economy.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Like you big of some ways.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Yeah. So it was by a person named Alfonso the Learned.
He may not be as learned as he set out
to be.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
That definitely sounds worth a read. Well. Thank you Peter
for stopping by and tell us all about what's on
the website. Thanks, as always, a massive thanks to each
and every one of you whose support makes this podcast happen,
whether it's by letting the ads play, through, telling your
friends about your favorite episodes, or becoming a patron on
patreon dot com. Without you, none of this would be possible,
(53:18):
so thank you. To find out more about the perks
of being a patron, or to become one yourself, please
visit patreon dot com slash Medievalists for everything from Frederick
to Warwick. Follow Medievalist on net, on Instagram at medievalist net,
or blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle
Sebowski across social media at fiven Medievalist or five Minute Medievalist,
(53:43):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is Beyond the Warriors by Geefrog. Thanks for
listening and have yourself a fantastic day.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and eighty
eight of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Zabowski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. When we look back to
medieval Europe, there are a handful of legendary figures who
stand out above the rest Richard the Lionheart, Charlemagne el
Sid and for the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick Barbarossa, a
(00:38):
powerful emperor, focused crusader, and stubborn supporter in the middle
of a papal schism. Barbarossa certainly made waves in the
twelfth century and left a lasting impression. This week I
spoke with doctor Graham Loud about Frederick Barbarossa. Graham is
Professor Emeritis and both the former director of the Institute
from Medieval Studies and head of the School of History
(01:01):
at the University of Leeds. He's the author of many
books on medieval Germany and Italy, including The Society of
Norman Italy, The Crusade of Frederick Barbarossa, and the Social
World of the Abbey of Cava circa ten twenty to
thirteen hundred. His new book is simply called Frederick Barbarossa.
(01:21):
Our conversation on how Barbarosa came to power, how he
managed to reign supreme in both Germany and Italy despite
some bumps along the way, and why he sometimes revered
as a once in future king in Germany is coming
up right after this. Well, welcome to talk about Frederick Barbarossa.
(01:42):
I haven't really talked about him very much on this podcast,
even with almost three hundred episodes under my belt, so
it's about time. Welcome, Thank you. So when we're talking
about Frederick barbaros we're talking about a whole empire that
he's about to inherit. Can you set the scene for
us when are we talking about and what sort of
(02:03):
territory is involved.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, what we call the Empire or what later became
known as the Holy Roman Empire, effectively comprises the kingdoms
of Germany and Italy. When once talking about Germany in
the Middle Ages, you have to imagine a space which
is slightly different to Germany today. It included most of
what we'd now call Belgium and Holland, Switzerland, Austria, and
(02:32):
the king of Italy was essentially the kingdom of Northern Italy.
Barbarossa himself became King of Germany in eleven fifty two,
succeeding his uncle Corner of the Third, and he was
crowned emperor in eleven fifty five, and he had a
very long reign. He was king for thirty eight years
(02:56):
and he died in eleven ninety whi part of the
Third Crusade. So it's probably about the longest reign of
any German monarch throughout the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And this is pretty spectacular because when he comes to
the imperial throne he's already twenty nine, so people might
have been thinking this might not be a hugely long rain.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes. I mean one of his achievements, if you can
call it that is he outlived virtually all his contemporaries.
I mean he's actually by the time he was crowned
emperor he was thirty two, but he lived to be
probably sixty seven sixty eight, which by the standards of
the Middle Ages was a very long time.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, and he was able to well not achieve everything
he wanted to achieve. So maybe we need to get
into the things that he wanted to achieve, because as
you've said, this is a huge geographical area that he
inherits or when he takes the imperial throne. I think
that maybe we could get into how he takes it,
but he really starts to look at the edges of
(04:05):
the Empire, especially the Italian states city states, trying to
get them more involved in being part of the imperial project.
So maybe we can get into how he became the
emperor in the first place, because that wasn't a foregone conclusion,
and then look at some of his projects.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
No, not at all, And indeed, to quit the how
he actually became King of Germany. Whilst a fairly murky story,
Frederick and his advisors naturally claimed that he succeeded his uncle.
This was his uncle's wish, and you know, it was
(04:44):
all a perfectly normal process. In fact, that looks to
be quite untrue. His uncle left a son, but that
son was only a relatively small child. It looks as
though Conrad, just before his death, was intending to hold
a council where he would designate his son as king
(05:08):
as effectively his successor, but he died before he could
do that, and Frederick moved very fast to secure his
own election as King of Germany and then his coronation,
which happened only three days after his election at Frankfurt.
He's an Arkham, which is quite a long way away
(05:28):
being crowned. It all looks very hasty and effectively. Therefore
it's a usurpation. Admittedly, he made provision for his nephew.
I think that was probably part of the deal that
his nephew would become Duke of Swabia, that he would
be given a ladded endowment, he would have an honorable
position within the nobility of the kingdom. It's not quite
(05:50):
like Richard third, but he still took over the throne
when his predecessor had not intended this. Now having done so,
he spends a lot of his reign being concerned with Italy,
as you said, But I would take issue with these
slightly because Italy isn't really a peripheral part of the Empire.
(06:13):
Italy to the medieval rulers is just as much part
of their dominions as Germany is. The whole question about
the emperor's Italian policy was rather confused in the nineteenth century,
when there were debates among German historians about whether the
medieval emperor's preoccupation with Italy was distorting the future of
(06:35):
the Reich. But that sort of terminology tells us much
more about political debates in the age of Bismarck than
it does about the Middle Ages. Frederick was, however, very
conscious of the fact that his immediate predecessors had not
been in Italy very much. Indeed, Conrad in the fourteen
(06:56):
years he was king hadn't been to Italy at all,
and before that, the emperor's visits over about half a
century had been few and far between, and fairly rapid,
and generally only concerned with going to Rome to receive
their imperial coronation. And in what was essentially a power vacuum,
(07:17):
the Italian cities had started to become more and more independent.
They developed their own machinery of government, they developed communes
sworn associations of the leading citizens to govern themselves, and
they'd more or less gone on quite happily without worrying
too much about the emperor. But Frederick felt he had
(07:39):
to do something about this. It's very much a case
of use it or lose it. But also, I mean,
if he could rule over Italy effectively, he could actually
ensure a considerable income from Italy, because Italy was economically
more advanced in Germany. There are more towns, there's more
trade for the ruler to exploit this through jews on trade,
(08:04):
levies on the town profits of justice, and bringing this
in in cash where it's interesting that quite a lot
of the emperor's income from his states in Germany is
still in kind rather than cash. So there are material
reasons as well as the obvious wish not to forego
(08:25):
any of his rights and powers as ruler. And he
did spend a great deal time in Italy. I mean
he made six expeditions to Italy during his reign, two
three of which were really quite extended, I mean particularly
eleven fifty eight sixty two and again at eleven seventy
four to a loven seventy eight. So he spent a
(08:47):
long time in Italy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I wanted to ask you, as part of this we
were talking about the practicalities of it and also inheriting
the rights as an emperor, how much do you think
that consolidating power in Italy had to do with his
perhaps personal wanting and identity that is Roman, Because this
is when the Roman Empire starts to sort of recede
(09:10):
from much of Europe. It's being taken over by this
idea of what the German and Italian states are still
continuing to call the Roman Empire. So how much do
you think of this as Frederick wanting to continue being
thought of, at least in his own mind, maybe as
being part of this heritage of romanness.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's a very good question, and it's actually quite a
difficult one, because I think we've got separate Frederick himself
may have believed and the picture we are presented by
some of his advisors, particularly in the biography written of
him by his uncle, Bishop Otto of Freisa. Though Otto
(09:50):
died before he could complete this, but he and his
secretary Rajewen wrote this biography which covers the first eight
years of the run, and that is a lot of
Roman in it. But of course, what a highly educated
bishop may have thought about being Roman, and what a
ruler who, whatever his intelligence, couldn't, for example, read maybe
(10:14):
another matter. But certainly, I mean Frederick was probably conscious
the fact that he was the successor to the Roman Empress.
He ruled over not all, but a substantial part of
what had once been the Western Roman Empire, and he
certainly is very concerned with what contemporaries call the honor imperi,
(10:37):
literally the honor of the Empire. But I think we
should take this as reputation. Perhaps it's a difficult word
to translate that he does not want to diminish the
rights which belonged to the emperor, not just for his
own sake, but for his success as well.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, he ended up having quite a lot of sons,
which was useful to him leader in life. I'm thinking
about his work in Italy or his attempts to really
consolidate that power in Italy being fueled by his territories
in Germany. So how did the people around him in
the German areas feel about this moving into Italy and
(11:17):
really consolidating power there, because that is still a geographic
long way to go, it is.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Indeed, But of course it was traditional for there to
be expeditions to Italy. Every previous ruler for two centuries
bar Corner of the Third had gone to Rome to
receive imperial coronation. Of course, they don't go alone, they
go with an army, so it wasn't unusual. Of course,
(11:43):
German princess and nobles could often be given possessions in
Italy or given positions in Italy to begin with. At least,
there's really it was a big involvement in the expeditions
to Italy. The second expedition of eleven fifty was huge.
There's over fifty major figures from Germany were involved, princes
(12:09):
and major nobles. Later on there are rather fewer, But
I think that's when the economic pressure of continual service
in Italy starts to hit home, and we do have
occasional complaints about the burden of this. We're told right
at the end of the reign that Archbishop Christian of Minz,
(12:31):
who was archbishop who died in eleven eighty three, who
for much of the eleven seventies and eighties was Frederick
barbaross lieutenant in Italy when he wasn't there, had bankrupted
his archbishopric by continually being in Italy with gained his
own army. I don't think it's necessarily that German princes
(12:53):
and counts didn't want to serve in Italy, but I
think by the eleven seventies they were starting to feel
the burden of this because they were going to Italy
a lot more on the Barbarossa than they had been
under his predecessors.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes, and it wasn't always successful. In fact, in the
end it ended up being very unsuccessful in Italy, which
I would think would stir up some bad feelings back
in the German lands.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well, I don't know about bad feelings, possibly disappointment, But yes,
you're right that in the end, Barbaross's Italian policy unraveled
fairly spectacularly, and far from imposing his authority on the
Lombard cities, he had to do a deal with them,
and that was after he'd suffered a fairly major military
(13:43):
defeat at the Battle of Lenaro in eleven seventy six.
But of course the question of the relations with the
Italian cities was complicated by a Barbarossa's relationship with the papers.
That's a rather tangled story.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well I want to get to that. Maybe I can
get there sort of indirectly. And you mentioned his real
reliance on a certain archbishop. And if we look through
the story as you have laid it out in your book,
there are so many archbishops who are right there getting
onto the battlefield just about. They are part of the expedition.
They are supplying soldiers and money in order to make
(14:23):
this all work. So can we talk for a minute
about how the archbishops, these powerful archbishops are supporting Frederick
and what his sort of reciprocal agreement with them is,
because this is sort of what makes the papacy a
little bit uncomfortable, at least partly well.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
The German Church had certain very sense unusual characteristics. Most
of the German bishop brics and archbishoprics were very wealthy.
They had extensive laws, and on those lanes they had
military followers. When we think of and archbishops, you shouldn't
(15:05):
be thinking so much of unworldly religious figures. These people
were aristocrats. The German Church is very aristocratic. These are
the younger sons or younger brothers of counts or territorial lords.
They may be brought up as churchmen, but they're very
conscious of their aristocratic descent, and when they're in office,
(15:32):
they're very very powerful. And the emperors relied a lot
on their churchmen. I mean, you can't not use territorial
princes for your rule, particularly as in Germany, when there's
no real structure of government. In our terms, the king
(15:53):
has an administration which rules its own lands, but he's
not of an administration which rules over his kingdom, unlike
say the rulers of England at this period, or the
Kingdom of Sicily, where they are developing an actual royal
administration which rules their kingdom. That's not there in Germany.
The emperor has to rely on the great landowners, and
(16:16):
that includes the clerics, the bishop's archbishops, and the abbots
of the major monasteries. And we should see most of
these products as pretty worldly figures. And Archbishop Christian of Minz,
whom I've mentioned, was more notable as a warrior than
a churchman. I think. One not very admiring contemporary remarked
(16:39):
that he was a devotee of Mars rather than Saint Martin.
And he was alleged once to have killed I think
it was nine men personally with his mace in a
battle in Italy. Whether or not that's true, we can't
be certain, but it certainly does suggest a man of
(17:02):
notable piety and gentleness. But these people's interests were very
much working with the emperor. Yes, the emperor relies on
their support, but at the same time, individual preluts did
not want to get on the wrong side of the
Emperor because he could be a very bad enemy.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He's a very stubborn and persistent enemy, and this happens
when there ends up being a paper skism. But the
last thing I want to get at when we're talking
about bishops and archbishops is Fredick was very much about
holding on to the right to appoint these people, right.
This was something that he really wanted to make sure
that he didn't let go of in terms of power.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, the appointment of preluts is quite a sticky issue
in that in theory these should, of course, by canon
law have been elected by their cathedral chapters without interference.
But that theory, of course, in practice there was quite
(18:03):
a lot of interference, particularly because an earlier treaty with
the Papercy in eleven twenty two, while it had in
theory guaranteed freedom of election, had in practice said that
the emperor could intervene if there was a dispute, and
also that elections could happen at the Imperial Court. Now
(18:25):
there are just over forty bishoprics and archbishoprics in Germany.
At this period, probably some of the less important and
more peripheral bishoprics were allowed of free election, but the
wealthy ones, the archbishoprics, and some of the key bishoprics
(18:46):
in South Germany. The emperor does in practice keep a
very close control over the choice, and a lot of
the time, for example, the clerics who write his documents,
particularly the chancellors. The head of his writing, was almost
inevitably rewarded by being given a bishopric.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yes, yes, that's part. You have a quote in here saying,
please appoint my chancellor. I will consider it basically a
personal favor, and things will go really well for you
if you disappoint this chancellor. It doesn't seem to be
an option at all. This is very much a directive.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
The thing he doesn't actually say, and that's the communication
to the Chapter of Cologne in eleven sixty seven. But
what is implied He doesn't say, if you don't appoint
the person I want, then you're in trouble. Yes, you're
in really big trouble.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yes, not subtle. And so he's already got sort of
prickly relationships with the Greater Church in Rome because they're
not a big fan of this, because, as you say,
kenon Law says it should be the church that picks
the bishops. So things are already prickly. And then there
is a schism. Can you tell us what happens with
the schism?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah? Well, although certainly I have no doubt at Rome
they didn't approve of too much of sort of royal
interference of bishoprics, but in practice they knew they had
to put up with that, providing the bishops appointed were
at least sort of reasonably respectable and weren't obvious sinners.
They were prepared to put up with that, not least
(20:18):
because there had been this treacy in eleven twenty two,
which had done a deal which allowed the Emperor some powers,
though not as much as he'd exercised before. The system
comes for rather different reason. It's simply a disputed election
within the College of Cardinals. In eleven fifty nine, when
(20:38):
Adria and the Fourth died, the College of Cardinals split.
One group of cardinals elected one cardinal's pope, another group
elected another one as pope. Both claimed to be the
drag Pope, but it happened that one was somebody who'd
already got on the wrong side of Frederic Barbarossa, the
papal Chancellor or Land of whom Barbarossa didn't like, and
(21:03):
the other candidate, Cardinal Octavian, was a long time alive Barbarosss,
So although his Barbaross' first say right we'll hold the
Church council. The Church council decide who the rightful pope is.
And I'm calling this council in northern Italy in three
(21:24):
months time. Rolando Bandinelli. Pope Alexander the Third, as he
calls himself, says, no, you've no right to do this.
This is a matter for the church layman. Shouldn't interfere
in anyway. I'm the legitimate pope. This is none of
your business. Cardinal Octavian Victor the Fourth says, oh, I'll
turn up at the council and I' present my case.
(21:46):
So guess which one the council decided was the legitimate pope.
The problem was that although for the most part Germany
in Italy supported Victor the Fourth, nobody else did, and
every other kingdom in Europe France, England, Spanish kingdoms, Sicily,
(22:06):
Jerusalem all came down for Alexander the Third, who seemed
to have run a much better diplomatic campaign than Barbarossa
and his pope did, And to be fair, Alexander the
Third had rather more cardinals on his side than Victor
the Fourth did. Although the canon law of the election
(22:27):
was at this point not really established, it was still
believed that under God's guidance, the cardinals would miraculously all
decide on who the best man was to choose his pope.
But nobody had yet laid down what they'd do, and
they couldn't agree. And it was only later, on eleven
seventy nine, right at the end of his long pontificate,
(22:49):
the Alexander the Third laid down a clear rule for
when a pope is actually elected, which is when he
had the support of two thirds of the cardinals, or
to stall a rule today. And indeed we will see
in a few weeks time whoever Pope France's successor will be,
he will have to secure the support of two thirds
(23:11):
of the cardinals in the conc live.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yes, I imagine when people are listening to this, at
least at the time we're recording, they haven't had the
conclave yet, so people are probably thinking about the current
decision that's being made. Plus the movie that is actually
quite excellent about the conclave. So Barbarossa, he has bad
blood with the pope that everyone else likes Alexander, And
(23:33):
this lasts way way beyond reason in that when the
antipope will call the antipope. For clarity, I suppose when
he dies, another one is elected, and Barbarossa continues to
support antipopes against even what the people in his own
empire really want. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yes, I mean Victor the fourth did have some support.
It's not a majority Christen, but he's generally supported in
Germany and over quite a lot of northern Italy, which
at that stage is still reasonably quiescent and reasonably ready
to accept Barbaross's orders. His successors have less and less support,
(24:18):
And I think had Barbarossa been wise, and had he
not been so clearly emotionally invested and feeling that his
prestige required him to support his pope, he probably would
have been wise to bail out. After the death of
Victor the fourth and eleven sixty four, and certainly after
(24:38):
the death of the second anti pope in eleven sixty eight.
And it was that alex Land of the third was
being entirely unreasonable. He wanted to be recognized as the
legitimate pope. But it's notable, despite this very long dispute,
he never tried to invalidate Barbaross's right to be ruler.
(25:00):
One hundred years before, when there's been a major row
between Gregory the seventh and the Amprehendry of the Fourth.
Gregory had eventually proclaimed that Henry the fourth was deposed
as a disobedient ruler. Alexander the third doesn't do that,
and it's pretty clear that from eleven sixty nine onwards
he's putting out peace feelers and his supporters, with his encouragement,
(25:24):
are talking to Barbaross's court and saying, can we do
a deal? And it seems to be largely Barbaross's obstinacy
which prevents them doing a deal. And in the end
it was almost certainly the German bishops who persuaded it. Look,
this has gone on too long. The current anti pope
(25:45):
has got very little support. You really have to give
in on this one, which he eventually does, but only
in eleven seventy seventh. So if Barbarossa has a fourth ruler,
he's very very obstot.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Well, this is a very interesting part of his psychology,
if we can call it that, or get close to that.
In that One of the things that you mentioned in
your book is amongst the bishops and the princes, they
kind of agree amongst themselves that they're going to agree
with Frederick publicly, especially about this papal a schism, and
maybe work quietly towards peace, but not to say it
(26:24):
out loud, because this is a bad idea. Do I
have that right?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yes? I mean the obvious danger of those who'd actually
stood out publicly for Alexander. The third was that in
the end they tended to lose their seas, and I
don't think these German bishops wished to lose their positions.
It was much more a matter of saying to the Emperor,
don't you think it'd be a good idea if you
(26:49):
did a deal on this one. You can see that,
you can see why they did this, and you have
to see their point. But there was a case because
in eleven sixty far four or five, the Archbishop of
miz Conrad of Littelsbach did come out publicly for Alexander
and fled from Germany to Alexander's corps, and Frederick basically
(27:12):
declared him to pose, said right, he's resigned, we'll have
another archbishop. So that was quite a sort of red
flag to other bishops saying don't stop out a line.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yes, well, it's a smart policy, especially if you feel
like you might be able to accomplish things quietly even
if you can't do it publicly. And I think this
is something that we see sort of throughout history, but
it's definitely something that you pulled out when it comes
to this particular reign. So maybe it's time to talk
about his policy when it comes to the princes, because
(27:44):
this is one of the things that you mentioned in
the book as being sort of significant within Frederick's reign
and then in the time afterwards, where he doesn't work
to consolidate power in the terms that we were talking
about before, like England and Ci where there is a
sort of a centralization of power. Here, there are still
a lot of well I'm calling them princes, but nobles
(28:07):
that have their own sort of distinct power, and this
is something that Frederick sort of leaves alone and in
some ways fragments further by creating new duchies, by creating
new nobles. So tell us a little bit about how
this works with the German nobility at this point.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, an obvious point to make about Germany is it's
a very very big kingdom. I mean, one of the
points about England Sicily, I mean, there are all sorts
of complex reasons. We can't go into now why they
develop precocious royal administrations, but one of the points is
they're both relatively small. England was reasonably coherent long tradition
(28:48):
of fairly centralized rulership. Germany had always been decentralized. Back
in say the tenth eleventh century, there's a small number
of dutchess what we might call principalities. They're not the
personal possession of the dukes, but they were rather the
(29:08):
royal vice regents ruling over them. But increasingly the major families,
the sort of twelve or fifteen major families in Germany
started building up their own private possessions. This is still
going on in Barbarossa's reign, but it's probably the dominant
feature of German society in the late eleventh, twelfth early
(29:33):
thirteenth century, the consolidation of these local power blocks by
big and important families like the Little Spark, the Velfs
and the Chaffron. Barbarossa's own family who build up a
huge power block in southwest Germany. And the emperor's rule
in many ways is quite hands off all he wants,
(29:56):
and it's particularly the case of Barbarossa because he's in
Italy for so much of the time. I mean, over
a sort of twenty five years of the reign, Frederick
spent about fourteen years in Italy. What his major concern
is there's no trouble in Germany. He doesn't want there
to be conflict between the different princes because that would
(30:17):
prevent him going to Italy or would call him back
if he was in Italy, and that would prevent the
German aristocrats contributing troops to his army and helping him
in Italy. So basically he's trying to keep the big
wigs happy, and in a way that's not too difficult.
I mean, his major role as ruler is to mediate
(30:39):
between disputes and generally to arrange that if there are
disputes between princes, there's a compromise which keeps everybody happy
or as many people happy as possible. And he's quite
good at that. I mean, for all his possible failings
as a diplomat in dealing with the papacy or in Italy,
(31:00):
he actually does know how to manipulate the German princes.
What he's also doing in Germany is building up his
own family's resources, particularly in the later part of his reign,
there's no doubt. I mean he was. He had far
more power, far greater lands, far more castles, far more
(31:21):
vassals than any other aristocrat in Germany by the eleven ases.
And of course, if you've got extensive lands, that means
not just wealth but military power. Admittedly they're mainly in
central and southern Germany, but Barbarossa at the height of
his own probably controlled two hundred castles. The next most
(31:44):
powerful prince in Germany, Henry the Lion, who was Duke
of Saxony and Bavaria, had maybe fifty and Henry the
Lion eventually has a nasty fall. So after eleven eighty,
if there wasn't anybody as powerful as that.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Maybe it's we're taking a second to tell everybody what
happens with Henry the Lyon, because this is a name
that will have come up for people who are more
familiar with English history, perhaps because Henry the Lyon marries
into the Royal House of England. So what happens with
Henry the Lion. He's not the most tactful diplomat, and
we're talking about tactful diplomat, he's not one of them.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
No. I mean, Henry the Lyon was doing just what
a lot of other leading aristocrats were doing, building up
his own power and sources. But he seems to have
been both very good at this and very ruthless. And
he's good at making enemies. He's also very powerful and
very well connected. As you say, he's married the daughter
(32:45):
of King Henry the Second of England. When he went
on Pilgrims Truso eleven seventy two. At least according to
the one surviving account of that we have, which was
written by somebody from Saxony, the design Ti Emperor treated
him virtually is an equal, as indeed did the Turkish
Sultan of Asia Minor. And you can't help getting the
(33:08):
impression that Henry the Lyon got a bit too big
for his boots. There's a fair bit of hubris there,
and he made more and more enemies, and eventually his
enemies ganged up on him. Now they tried this several
times during the round, but Barbarossa had always protected him.
Remember Henry the Lams, Barbaross's cousin. He'd also played quite
(33:31):
a big part in helping in Barbaross's seizure of the throne.
At eleven fifty two, but relations cooled between them. I
think Barossa became aware that Henry the Lion was getting
very powerful and getting pretensions. But also he refused to
help Barbarossa in Italy in the eleven seventies, and Barbarossa
(33:54):
needed help in Italy in the eleven seventies, and it
all went horribly wrong, So I think why there the
Empress asked to hold a grudge. Secondly, Henry was alienated
from the Emperor because there was a dispute about succession
to Barbaross's cousin and Henry's uncle, Duke Valf the sixth.
(34:16):
He was the other leading member of the same the
Wealth family. Valf the sixth only son died in Italy
and the question was who was going to inherit. Henry
the Lyon clearly thought he was, but Barbarossa managed to
buy dint of basically a lot of bribery, managed to
persuade Wealth the sixth to make him and his sons
(34:37):
his heir, which clearly annoyed Henry the Lyon considerably. So
by eleven eighty relations between the two are pretty cool,
and when at eleven eighty Henry the Lyon's enemies, which
is just about anybody who had lands around his, headed
by the archbishops of Cologne and Magdeburgh, wanted to fight,
(34:58):
though barbaross so effectively said, go on and do it.
And Henry the land has declared an outlaw. You've declared
deprived of all the land. Health's imperial thiefs and of
his duchess and other people were appointed to them, and
the Duchess of Bavaria and Saxony were both split from
(35:19):
the impred That's quite clever, because of course you don't
have somebody with quite the same powers Henry of the
Lon had. It also rewards one or two people who
had been conspicuously loyal to notably or to Vittle Spark,
who becomes the new Duke of Bavaria, who was one
of Barbaross's closest associates as far as we can see,
(35:40):
probably one of his closest friends. But Barbarossa didn't profit
directly from the fall of Henry of the Lon. He
doesn't get any new land. The lands all redistributed, but
to several people, not to one. So the effect is
to create more princess aristocrats who are directly dependent on
the nobody else, which probably helps the Emperor. He didn't
(36:04):
want somebody quite as sort of powerful and quite as
ambitious and quite as arrogant as Henry the larm.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I guess it takes one to know one.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, probably, But Henry the land does seem to have
been spectacularly tactless. His father, who seems to be very similar,
have the nickname Henry the Proud. I think it could
applied just as well to Henry the Lyon in the end.
I mean, he was allowed to keep his personal freehold
lands in Brunswick, but nothing else.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
This is still amazing tightrope walking for the Emperor, because
in other situations and other places where you have a
class with a noble, it goes very badly. But Henry
the Lyon seems to accept what's happening to him. He
doesn't rally troops, he doesn't bring in his allies from
other places. It sort of settles out pretty well considering
(37:01):
how badly it could go.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
He didn't have many allies, I mean, he'd had one
or two before, but it's notable when he fell out
with the Emperor, with the other nobility of North Germany,
his allies tended to desert him and get on the
winning side. He was allied by marriage with the King
of Denmark, who married one of his daughters. But when
(37:25):
Barbarossa takes a personal role in the campaign against Saxony,
the King of Denmark changes sides and helps Barbarosso similarly,
several of Henry, the lions, leading nobles and Saxony change sides,
and in a couple of cases there seems to be
after they had had a dispute with Henry about who
(37:46):
actually got various prisoners who'd been taken and their ransoms.
Henry said no, they're mine, and so at least a
couple of his leading counts then deserted him and went
over to Abarossa. There is a moral there.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I think it's got to be pride go with before
a fall.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Absolutely all monarchs, some medieval monarchs some extent, have this
type rope. I mean, even for say a King of England.
If you fall out with the noble, you want to
fall out with only one or two of them, not
too many, which just where for example, one hundred and
fifty years later, up the second goes wrong, he alienates
(38:28):
nearly everyone.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yes, there's that moral lesson again. So things are settled out,
they're going okay in the Empire. And then there is
news from Jerusalem, because we do need to get to
what happens to Frederick in the end. So there's news
from Jerusalem. What happens next.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Well, fast forwarding now through eleven eighty seven, and in
eleven eighty seven, Saladin, the Sultan of Egypt and Damascus,
conquered or invaded and conquered most of the Kingdom of
Jerusalem and annihilated the army of the Kingdom of Jerism
at the Battle of Hateen, And in October eleven eighty
seven he took Jerusalem City, the Holy City of Christendom.
(39:09):
This was clearly a tremendous shock to Western Europe. I
think in part because the kings of Jerusalem and their
nobles had been sending appeals for help for at least
a generations, saying, oh, we're in desperate trouble. The kingdoms
were set was surrounded by enemies. We need help immediately.
But not much had happened. They'd generally been okay. They
(39:33):
had one or two minor setbacks, but the king ra
Jews was still that and suddenly it was swept away
in the matter of a few weeks, and the loss
of Jerusalem really does concentrate mines the Nadieval West. I
mean Barbarossa had still been arguing with the popes in
the mid eleven eighties, particularly after eleven eighty five with
(39:55):
the election of the former Archbishop of Milan as Pope
Urban the Third. Relations were really quite poor. But as
soon as the news of the clubs of the Holy
Land comes they forget about that. That doesn't matter. And
remember Barbarossa had already been a crusader once, he'd been
on the Second Crusade eleven forty seven, eight before he'd
(40:16):
become king, when he'd been effectively the second in command
of the German contingent, led by his uncle Connell of
the Third. Of course, the Second Crusade hasn't been a
great success, in fact, it had been something for shambles.
But he had been before, and of course he'd also
had an object lesson of how not to conduct a crusade.
(40:36):
And as soon as the news of the fall of
the Holy Land became clear, the pope start trial lists
the king's the German Emperor, the King of France, the
King of England. In a new crusade, and barbaross was
clearly receptive. We know he went to meet the King
of France in December eleven eighty seven, and while we
(40:59):
don't have a record of war, they discussed. I can't
help thinking the crusade was front and center. And he
took the cross in May eleven eighty eight and gathered
a very large army set off a year later. But
this wasn't that there was a lot of delay. It
was the year was spent organizing the army, finding the money,
(41:21):
persuading people to join up, and making sure that the
people who did join were suitable. One of the things
we're told is that Barbaros sends some people home because
they're basically they're not warriors. They don't have the resources,
they don't have the military skill. He wants this to
be a military expedition and not one with a huge
(41:44):
trail of camp followers, a second crusade. You know, these
people have got to be fed, so if they haven't
got any military value, you don't want them there. And
he set off on crusade in May eleven eighty nine
by the land route through the Balkans near Constantinople, across
the Dardanelles and then through Asia Minor, and one of
(42:08):
the things he'd been doing during the year of preparation
was intensive diplomatic activity to try and ensure that he
actually had free passage. So he sends envoys to the
Byzantine Emperor, to the Turkish Sultan, to the King of Hungary,
to various princess and the Balkans, aim say I'm coming
(42:29):
through with my army. I won't do any harm, but
please ensure that markets are available so my men can
buy supplies. And to the Christians anyways, saying we're going
to Jerusalem. This is a good thing. By letting me through,
your contribute to the welfare of Christendom. Well, it works
a bit. There is a lot of trouble with the
(42:50):
Byzantine Emperor, who was clearly not particularly keen on having
a large foreign army marching through his kingdom, and was
of course always potential dispute between the Emperor Constantinople and
the German Emperor over who really was the Roman Emperor,
because both of them thought they could only be one
and it's me. In the end, after a fair bit
(43:14):
of skirmishing and Barbaross's country living off the land in
the southern Balkans for quite a long time. He persuaded
emperors at the second of Constantinople to allow him passage
across the Bosporus and provide ships and provide markets in
Western Asia Minor. He got into Central Asia Minor, into
Turkish territory, having been negotiating with the sultan earlier, but
(43:39):
then discovered that he was getting attacked. The Germans clearly
thought this was treacherally. In fact, I think it was
simply the Turkish Sultan's power was so weak that he
couldn't control his followers and couldn't control the various nomadic
tribes who had moved into Central Asia Minor. But anyway,
the Germans fight the way through the pretty effectively. They
(44:02):
get to solicitine Armenia friendly territory Christian territory. And then
on tenth of June eleven ninety, as the army was
crossing a river, Frederic Barbaros had drowned either he fell
off his horse, as one account, as he was crossing
the river, and remember he was sixty seven sixty eight
(44:25):
or the count I rather like. He got across the river,
they stopped for lunch. It's a very hot day, so
he went to off a swim after lunch and then drowned.
You take a choice. But after that his second son,
his second in command, Frederic Dukeswebia, took command, brought the
army to Antioch Christian territory northern Syria, and then it
(44:49):
was destroyed by an epidemic. So in the end it
didn't contribute a great deal, though it was hardly Barbarossa's fault.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Well, considering he wasn't around anymore, I don't think he
can take that.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
The epidemic was well, it was one of the problems
medieval armies had when you've got inadequate sanitation. They'd be
clearly been on short Russians for a very long time,
go through Asia Minor. We don't know quite what it was,
but my guess probably be disantry.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yes, it's likely, isn't it. So as we come to
the end here, Frederick has drowned. He didn't make the
in roles he wanted to in the Holy Land, and
that could also be said about Italy. And then he
didn't consolidate power in the way that people often admire
when it comes to rulers in history, right, making that
(45:37):
empire really surrounding one person, unifying, and yet Frederick Barbarossa
is considered one of Germany's best, one of the best
Holy Roman emperors. Ever. What do you think contributes to
his reputation? Why do people love him? He's almost a
once in future king sometimes in consideration of him. So
what do you think makes him such a legendary figure
(45:59):
in his region?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, I'd see Barbarossa's a rather paradoxical figure. I mean,
on surface, at the end of his reign, he was
still very very powerful. He's undisputed emperor, ruled Germany. In Italy,
the princes do what he says. He's still very much
in control in Germany, and although he'd had to do
(46:23):
a deal with the Lombard Cities, he had actually recovered
a certain amount of ground in Italy. Having decided that
he couldn't conquer the Lombard cities, he did actually try
and schmooze them. He was actually much more successful at that,
and he was still very much in control of Tuscany
in central Italy. So superficially he's very very powerful, and
(46:46):
of course dying on crusade fighting for Christendom, it looks
pretty good that's the way a great emperor probably might
have wanted to go out. And I mean his management
of the crusade shows he's actually pretty good compared with
the hash Connor of the Third had made it. Of
the second Crusade, Barbarossa had really learnt the lessons. His
(47:08):
army is better disciplined, there's far few and non combatants.
His diplomacy is much more effective, and he keeps his
eye on the ball and keeps sort of heading for
the Holy Land. So superficially you could pretty good. His son,
eldest son, Henry, was already designated king. He succeeds without trouble.
(47:32):
Henry was married to the heirest of the Kingdom of Sicily.
He eventually acquires the Kingdom of Sicily. It all looks
very good in the short term. Now, I would argue
in the long term, the seeds of the collapse of
the Empire were already sown. And it's particularly in Germany,
where it's the princes who were consolidating their local authority
(47:52):
in a way that the emperor wasn't. And in the
early thirteenth century, imperial power in Germany arshly declines, and
it's made worse by the fact that Barbaross's grandson, for
it at the second, was an absentee for most of
his reign. The future in Germany lay with the princess,
(48:12):
and by the late Middle Ages you have the German
kings who are very much first among equals and no
more really ruled, but don't reign and only very occasionally
actually get to go to Rome to be crowned emperor,
and Germany fragments and fragments. Meanwhile, the cities of northern
(48:35):
Italy become more and more independent, and some of them,
like Milan and Florence, start to build up not just
a territory immediately around the city, but a sort of
state with lots of subordinate cities. And all this was
going on without the nominal rule of the emperor being
in a position to intervene. So in the long run,
I think Barbarosss reign did see a really crucial stage
(48:58):
in the hemorrhagey of imperial power, but it wasn't apparent
at the time, and you know, to Romantics in the
nineteenth century he seemed like a great ruler, and so
when finally Germany was reunited in eighteen seventy and they
were looking for sort of role model. It's Barbarossa. And
(49:19):
of course that's shown in some of the public monuments Villamine, Germany,
the Kefoisa Mountain, there's the great statue of Kaiser Filhelm
first Alice Foot the statue of Barbarassa. You can't make
the linkage much clearer than that.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yes, well, I think that from listening to us speak
about Frederick, I think people will have a better idea
of what this actual person was like, well he actually accomplished,
rather than the romantic idea that gets passed down to us.
So I'm hoping people will read your book, find out
more about him and dig into this historical character because
(49:56):
he is a fascinating person to learn about. So thank
you so much for coming on the podcast and telling
us all about him.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Well, thank you very much, Donald, I very much destoryed it.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
To find out more about Graham's work, you can visit
his faculty page at the University of Leeds. His new
book is Frederick Barbarossa. Before we go, here's Peter from
Medievalist Net to tell us what's on the website. What's up, Peter?
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Hey, Hey, So have you ever wondered what it felt
like to be hit by a lance from a night
on horseback.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I haven't wondered that. Actually, I figure it's going to
hurt a lot, and I don't really want to spend
the time imagining how much it's going to hurt.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
Why do you ask, Well, since you don't want to
do experimental archaeology, we have to turn to physics. And
this is really fun journal from physics students at the
University of Leicester. They have great, great topics that they
can't look into science fiction stuff and fantasy, and they
sometimes delve into the medieval. So they actually calculated what
(50:57):
the energy output is hit by a night on a
horseback coming down with the lance. All right, The calculations,
which are a lot, come down to fifty three kilojewles
of energy being transferred.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That sounds like a lot, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
It's the equivalent of being hit by a Honda Civic
going about thirty kilometers per hour.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
You want to have good armor and good padding underneath
that armor if you're gonna get hit by that lance.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yeah. Yeah. They also show you know why it always
breaks the lance, or it usually breaks the lance, because
that's more energy than they wood can take.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Mm hm, and now we can really appreciate that they're
not falling off every single time. Like that takes some
serious abstract I think.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
I think. So it's good on those nights. Hmm. So
we have that plus this piece about hygiene. And you
know we always say that, you know, you know, Middle
Ages wasn't the greatest for hygiene, right do.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
We always say that or who always says that kids, Well, not.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Be quite that true, but you know, sometimes it is
all right. But if you lived in Kordoba, the kind
of the city now and ois between the tenth and
thirteenth century, man, you had a really good sewage system.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Really Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
They took their hygiene very seriously and they developed like
a really intricate set of like underground sewers. They did
all sorts of things to keep their city clean, and
according to the authors of that studies like Europe wouldn't
see a system like that effective until the twentieth century. Wow, awesome,
So good on the people at Cordoba.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, seriously, that is what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
So we have that plus much more control, including how
to destroy your economy.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Like you big of some ways.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Yeah. So it was by a person named Alfonso the Learned.
He may not be as learned as he set out
to be.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
That definitely sounds worth a read. Well. Thank you Peter
for stopping by and tell us all about what's on
the website. Thanks, as always, a massive thanks to each
and every one of you whose support makes this podcast happen,
whether it's by letting the ads play, through, telling your
friends about your favorite episodes, or becoming a patron on
patreon dot com. Without you, none of this would be possible,
(53:18):
so thank you. To find out more about the perks
of being a patron, or to become one yourself, please
visit patreon dot com slash Medievalists for everything from Frederick
to Warwick. Follow Medievalist on net, on Instagram at medievalist net,
or blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle
Sebowski across social media at fiven Medievalist or five Minute Medievalist,
(53:43):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is Beyond the Warriors by Geefrog. Thanks for
listening and have yourself a fantastic day.
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!