August 28, 2025 • 50 mins
When the power of an entire kingdom rests in the hands of just one man, it’s both incredibly valuable and incredibly dangerous to be that man’s bestie - and the legacies of royal favourites tend to retain the taint of contemporary snark. So, maybe it’s about time we take a second look. This week, Danièle speaks with James Ross about the life of Robert de Vere - the infamous bff of King Richard II - his impact on the kingdom, and why it’s always worth taking a second look at the facts.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everyone, and welcome to episode three oh four of
the Medieval podcast. I'm your host Danielle Sebolski. When the
power of an entire kingdom rests in the hands of
(00:22):
just one man, it's both incredibly valuable and incredibly dangerous
to be that man's bestie. Lavished with gifts, lands, and power,
Medieval royal favorites rarely made it to old age without
incurring the animosity of rivals for the king's affection, often
with deadly consequences, and the legacies of royal favorites tend
(00:44):
to retain that taint of contemporary snark. So maybe it's
time we take a second, less jaundiced look at royal favorites,
starting with today's episode. This week, I spoke with doctor
James Ross about the life of Robert de Vere, the
infamous eff of King Richard the Second. James is a
reader in late medieval history at the University of Winchester
(01:06):
and the author of several books, including John Devere thirteenth,
Earl of Oxford fourteen forty two to fifteen thirteen, The
Foremost Man in the Kingdom and Henry the sixth a Good,
simple and Innocent Man. His new book is Robert de Vere,
Earl of Oxford and Duke of Ireland thirteen sixty two
(01:26):
to thirteen ninety two, The Rise and Fall of a
Royal Favorite. Our conversation on what we know about Robert
de Vere, his impact on Richard the Second and the
English Kingdom, and why it's always worth taking a second
look at the facts is coming up right after this. Well,
welcome James to talk about Robert de Vere. This is
(01:48):
so exciting for me because this is a guy that
seems pivotal to history, and yet we don't know all
that much about him, or I didn't before I read
your book. So thank you for coming on and telling
us about.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Robert de Vere.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you very much for asking me.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, so before we can understand who this guy is,
we need to know when and where we are, because
he's attached to the court of Richard the Second, which
king is Richard the Second.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So Richard the Second is king from thirteen seventy seven
to thirteen ninety nine, the end of the fourteenth century.
He's the grandson of Edward the Third, the great victor
of the first part of the One Hundred Years War.
But Richard inherits as a young man. He's only ten
years old when he becomes king, and he inherits the
(02:34):
throne at a time when England's actually not in a
great place. The one hundred Years War is now not
going nearly as well as it had done under the
glory years of his grandfather, and his early years are
a real struggle to try and reassert royal authority. That
coincides also his early years with the peasants' revolts, so
there's pressure from below. Economic conditions and not as good
(02:56):
as they had been earlier, so it's a difficult period
in which to in which to start becoming king, and
the troubles continue throughout his reign. He's of course eventually
deposed and quietly murdered in fourteen hundred. So it's a
tough reign and a tough time to be king.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, and it's never easy coming to the throne when
you're ten years old. Not speaking from experience, but I
imagine it's not very easy to do that.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
No, a lot of royal minorities, there are problems that
are created there, and often kings who really struggle to
sort of assert their personal authority once they've become older.
Richard interestingly tries very early, even as an early teenager,
he's trying to push his authority and that doesn't go
to herbly well, as we may get into later.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes, well, I was speaking to Helen Caster when her
book came though, The Eagle in the Heart where she's
looking at Richard the second and Henry the fourth, and
one of the things that she mentions that's probably relevant
to the way that Richard sees himself as we start
to introduce him here on this podcast, is that people
have told him he's great, that he's the Savior, he's
going to be the best, and so you can see
(04:00):
him playing with power early on because that's what he's
been told he is meant for.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah. Absolutely. I would also say actually, early on he
does have some successes. He shows great personal bravery during
the Presents of Aorltron Thirsty and eighty one, aged about fourteen.
I think that sets in his mind the fact that
he's a great king who's going to do great things,
and it's never quite as good after that in some respect.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yes, Okay, so we're going to be talking more about
Richard as we talk about Robert, because their faiths are
intertwined in a lot of ways. So let's switch over
to Robert for a second. Where does he come from,
where's his family? What's he all about?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So he's the eldest son of the Earl of Oxford,
so he's born into the aristocracy. He's born to also,
like Richard, to inherit a title his family. They're based
in East Anglia, in Essex and Suffolk. They're a very
long established family. They've been Earls of Oxford since the
eleven forties. Not the wealthiest noble family, nor have they
(05:02):
been enormously politically prominent, but they're perhaps wealthier than people
have realized. And the couple of generations before so Robert's
father and grandfather brilliant military records. They fought to all
the big battles in the first part of the One
Hundred Years War really successfully. So there are family, in
some respects actually on the up, but not at quite
(05:23):
the same level as the most prominent and most wealthy nobility.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well a good start, right, He's got a title behind him.
His uncle you mentioned is already at the royal courts,
already making.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Waves there in subtle waves.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
But he's there, and so this is a good place
for somebody to start out live.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, it's a good inheritance. His uncle, as you mentioned,
very close to the Black Prince, Richard the Second's father,
the heir to the throne until he predeceases ever by
a year. The issue for Robert is, of course, his
father dies when he's nine, so he becomes a ward
of the crown. Obviously a personal tragedy, but actually that
does also give him another advantage. He's growing up at court,
(06:06):
he very early, quite early on, he's married to the
first granddaughter, Philippa Decusi, so he's got a good moutal
link with the royal family. He probably knows Richard from
quite early on, from sort of thirteen seventy six, eighty
and seventy seven onwards, so that the two of them
go up in close proximity to each other. Robert's about
(06:27):
five years older than rich the Second, but there's another
good advantage there and in sort of good connections at court.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, and I hadn't realized before reading your book that
Robert's father had also died when he was young, and
so this might be something that the two of them
bonded over. Like we have to remember as we're talking
about these big royal figures that they're also human beings,
started off as boys who had a bit of trauma
in the background, and maybe this is something that connected
them early on. But yeah, this wedding that he has
(06:56):
to the granddaughter of the Great King Edward the third,
this is this is great for him, And I want
to spend a second emphasizing how great this is for
him because eventually that doesn't go so well.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
No, absolutely, and I mean, as we will talk about
it a bit later, that that marriage goes horribly wrong,
but it is you know, it's a great advantage early
on that linked to the royal family. I think he
spends a lot of time going up at court with
Philippa and his mother in law, who's over the third daughter,
Princess Isabella. Philippo's an airess. She's not a hugely wealthy
erres but she brings lands to the family, which is
(07:29):
also a really important aspect of this. So it's a
great marriage. But again it's arranged for Robert. Robert isn't
going out and seeking a royal bride. He's only fourteen
when this marriage is effectively imposed on him. But there
are enormous advantages, or they should have been as far
as Robert's concern.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yes, and I think it's important that we established that
we spend this time establishing that Robert's place at the
court is completely normal. This is something that you really
get at in the book, because later he's going to
be accused of all sorts of things, but right now,
it's just a normal place for a normal noble guy.
He gets married to a great woman or a child
at this point, he gets into a great marriage, is
(08:08):
what I'm trying to say, And everything seems to be
just a totally normal start for somebody of his rank.
And then one last thing that I wanted to imagine
is that when you've looked into the peasants revolt as well,
his family seems to be well regarded enough that they're
not really targeted by the peasants as well. So this
family is really well regarded at least at the start.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yes, and I think that's absolutely right. I mean, there's
only ten to fifteen earls in England. He's born to
this extremely high rank. He would be absolutely naturally at court,
a natural advisor of the crown. All the nobility sow
themselves as the natural counselors. He can come to court.
He's hereditary Lord Great Chamberlain, which means he's one of
(08:51):
the senior partly ceremonial but partly slightly more than ceremonial
officials at the royal court. Even if you haven't become
a controversial figure, he would been around at court a
great deal. He would have been a natural advisor of
the king. As I said the family, I would say
on the way up, if they're doing a good job.
They don't seem to be unpopular or particularly harsh landlords,
(09:12):
and they're not targeted in the peasants revolt. Robert's actually
on campaign in France when the revolt breaks out, so
he's not a contributory factor, or perhaps even in his
absence he's contributing fact because perhaps had he been there
and might have helped calm aspects of the revolt down
in his region.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So when do you find Richard and Robert spending more
time together? When do they start to be a pair
of people that people are like, Okay, these guys are closed,
they're besties. Where do you start to see that In
the records you can.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Place them at certain points together from early in the
reign and probably before Richard becomes king. But the point
at which I think you can really date a close
friendship is the dramatic events of the Peasants Revolt in
thirteen eighty one. Richard's in the tower for some of this.
He's really worried for his personal safety. He as a
fourteen year old boy. He has to go and negotiate
(10:04):
with these groups of angry ordinary people. And as far
as we can tell, Robert was with him throughout all
of this, and perhaps more so than anyone else, And
speculatively you can see the fourteen year old boy sort
of leaning on the nineteen year old Robert de Vere
for advice, for support, and I think Robert helps him
(10:24):
throughout all of this. That's where I would date at
the start of a really close friendship. And from there
on you can see Robert being at court a bit more.
You begin to start seeing grants and patronage to him,
not enormous amounts, and again perhaps we'll touch on that
a little bit later, but I think from that point
onwards there's a close friendship.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yes, I don't think you can overemphasize that moment in
the Peasants Revolt where Richard has to go out and
confront the crowds. This is just such an important moment
in his life, and so reading your book and seeing
that Robert was there with him during these traumatic few days,
I think that really speaks greatly to what their relationship
(11:04):
will become later. And then something else that you mentioned
in your book that I think is relevant is that
there are a few people of that age at the
court at this time. So Richard is meant to be
surrounded by people at a certain rank, and there's only
a few of those people that are teenagers at this point,
and so you know, you're naturally going to gravitate to
your peers. I think, so this is an important moment
(11:26):
to sort of see maybe the seeds of their friendship
really starting.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, And I think boys being boys
not you know that if there was a series of
teenage boys, that not all of them are going to
get on. And actually two of those people of equivalent
age end up turning against Richard and Robert in thirteen
eighty seven and they become two of the Lord's repellants
who fight Richard. So those sort of personal tensions, it's
very hard to really get an insight into that sometimes,
(11:51):
but there's this little group and they don't all get on,
but Robert and Richard do. And I think it is
definitely obvious from that point in first and eighty one on.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, So, as you say, we're in thirteen eighty one
and then their friendship starts to grow, Richard starts to
get more power.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Tell us a little bit about how this evolves.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Richard from that point in thirty and eighty one onwards,
has in his head, I think, proved himself as a king,
and actually most of the political nation begin to accept
he's almost old enough. He begins to exercise a little
bit of power. He gets married the year afterward, another
sort of big life cycle events, and increasingly he begins
to get control over the resources of his crown and
(12:31):
begins to make decisions, and you begin to see Roberts
at court. You begin to see Richard granting a little
bit of patronage to Robert, confirming some grants, and the
beginning of a rise for Robert in some respects natural
nobleman though he is, he's increasingly perhaps important in that
(12:52):
group around Richard.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, this is important because, as you're saying, and this
is a huge part of your book, you're saying this
is an there are a meteoric rise. This is just
little trickles here and there. And this is sort of
counter to what the narrative has been that Robert was
immediately just sort of thrown gifts, that gifts are always
falling into his that and that's not the sense that
you got from the records, right.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No, there are a number of small ish grants in
those first few years, from sort of thirty eighty two
to about summer of thirty and eighty five. None of
them on their own are politically objectionable. They're mainly grants
in areas where Debiro already holds lands, none of them
of enormous sort of financial value. The Crown is financially
(13:36):
really strapped at this time, and I suspect they're not
enormously popular simply because there's not a lot to go around.
And perhaps Robert's getting a little bit more than others,
though by no means vastly more. But it's also fair
to set at this point half of Robert's ancestral lands
were in the hands of his mother, so he's a
little bit more strapped for cash than he would otherwise
(13:58):
normally have been. Also a sense of an expectation that
Philippa will have some support from the crown as the
granddaughter of Ever the third. It's almost natural that there
will be a certain amount of patronage coming to Robert,
but it's absolutely not meteoric. And you can also flip
it around to say that although Robert's involved at court
(14:20):
and is clearly in the King's presence a lot, there
is very very little evidence that he abuses his position there.
I think there was something like eight grants that you
can see him signing or ceiling as the king's chamberlain.
That's eighteen four or five years. It's hardly sort of
a vice like grasp on patronage, which is how one
or two who Serians have sort of put it. There
(14:40):
aren't lots of grants to his servants or friends. He
doesn't seem to be abusing his position around the king
in any obvious way, and certainly not as obviously as
perhaps some of the other notorious royal favorites early in
the century Peters Gaveston or Q. Despenser in the second sign,
there's no kind of equivalent for that.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So we mentioned that he is a chamberlain. Tell us
a little bit about what his job actually is so
that we can compare it to what people are accusing
him of starting at this moment and maybe a bit later,
what's what's his job?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So chamberlain is the role is really to control access
to the king's chamber to some extent of his private chambers.
It's it's more than a doorkeeper, but it's that kind
of aspect or that kind of type of role. There
are two chamblains. There's the King's Chamberlain, he's a household official,
and then there's the Great Chamberlain, who's the role is
(15:34):
more ceremonial, but when he's actually present at court, the
Great Chamberlain outranks the King's Chamberlain, and I think you know,
to some extent. When he is at court, the Great
Champlain takes on aspects of that role. So this is
important because a lot of the politics around role favorites
is about the favorites being accused of controlling access to
the king, not letting people get to the king, or
(15:57):
taking bribes to let people in, or because they can
be always with the king whispering in his ear and
not allowing other people to influence him. So there's a
lot of politics around controlling access and again I mentioned
other royal favorites like hud Spencer. He's the king's chamberlain.
Controlling accesses is important to Robert de Vere is present
(16:20):
at Richard's court. He's clearly got this role, but there's
not a not really any obvious evidence of him really
abusing it and manipulating it in the way I think
that he's accused of doing, or popularly thought of doing.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes, well, it seems like a position where you're very
exposed anyway that if people are going to come, they're
going to come for you, because you are the person
who ostensibly is in control of who the king sees.
And it makes sense to me that you'd put somebody
that you really like and get along with in that position.
And so again Robert Devere's position, it is hereditary, as
(16:57):
you're saying, so like this is something that he's been
born to do. He's in this position, and then all
of a sudden his head is way above the parap
it So it seems like there's a tipping point where
things go from this is just a normal relationship to
where people start to get really upset by it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So what do you think is the tipping point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
There are I think two tipping points. One we'll come
on to a little bit later, and that's his personal life,
and we've touched on Philip A. De Acuci a little
bit earlier. That's one. The political one is the autumn
of fourteen eighty five when Robert is given an extraordinary
grant of the Lordship of Ireland control over effectively all
(17:38):
the Crown's rights and possessions in Ireland. And that is
the point when Robert goes from to some extent, an
understandabook career that's been keeping with his rank, to something
that's a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Do you think that this is all that strange? Like
I know that people at the moment are looking at
this as being not very cool that he's been given
this position. But given the fact that Richard doesn't have
an air, is this really a strange appointment?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I don't think it's that strange an appointment In some respects,
what I think Richard is doing here is something that's
quite innovative, quite different. The English lordship in Ireland's been
under pressure for decades from native Irish, from Scottish interference
earlier in the fourteenth century, but the English haven't really
(18:27):
done anything. There's occasionally bigger expeditions, but most of the
time a lieutenant is sent out with inadequate resources to
try and just hold the fort. What Richard is doing
here is giving one man the power to try and
do something different. Richard promises him lots of money. Robert
undertakes to have one and a half thousand troops there
for several years, the kind of power and resources that
(18:50):
could make a difference, that could really turn the tide.
And a lot of historians have tended to look at
this as giving Robert. I'm going to quote Tuck. I
think it is this shadows and trappings of power. I
think actually it's a genuine attempt to sort out a problem.
Robert is someone Richard trusts. He doesn't have interests in Ireland.
(19:11):
But actually maybe that's a good thing. He's someone who
can stand apart from the problem had doesn't already isn't
mixed up in it. The fact that this grant never
quite works is for external reasons, I think, rather than
the fact it was flawed or just about image and
the trappings of power. So it's a fairly extraordinary grant.
But I think I can see the logic in it.
(19:33):
I can see what Richard, I think, is trying to do.
He's also, it should be pointed out, taking advice from
Irish lords. There's a delegation in Westminster that autumn and
they're talking to the king about this, and I think
it's not just Richard going, oh, here's a bright idea.
I think he's taking advice on this, and what they're
saying is send a lord to Ireland with lots of
(19:55):
power to be able to do something and turn the tide.
And I think that's what Richard does. It's not seen
that way by historians. A lot of contemporaries, fairly soon
afterwards criticize it for all sorts of reasons, but I
do think it's worth taking quite seriously as a piece
of governmental policy rather than a grant to a favorite.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yes, well, this is the whole reason that you're on
this podcast because of these detailed looks that you take
into this, where other people have just kind of passed
over it as being what the people have said, the
chroniclers have said is probably true, must be true. So
I appreciate the way that you're looking at this. So
let's just finish that out. How does it go in Ireland.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Well, a whole string of problems. Firstly, Richard doesn't have
the money, or rather Parliament won't grant him the money initially,
and that means Robert's absolutely hamstrung in terms of financing
the troops he's meant to send over. There's trickles of
money earlier on. Eventually he's granted a large ransom, but
(20:56):
that doesn't start paying off until nearly two years later
from the time of the grant, so Robert really struggles
to get the financial resources. There are troops sent over.
There's about eight hundred troops sent over in the spring
of thirteen eighty six. Robert never goes to Ireland. And
that's the other reason A lot of historians have could
have criticized the grant. But the reason I think he
(21:18):
doesn't go to Ireland is that thirteen eighty six, when
there's evidence he is preparing to go, England is under
the greatest threat of invasion for decades. There's a massive
French fleet being arranged, and from the spring onwards, the
as a whole series of orders about defending the country,
and I suspect Robert thinks I can't go. It may
even be Riches as you can't go. I need you here.
(21:39):
I need you to defend the east coast, which is
where a lot of his lands are. In the summer
of thirteen eighty six, he's serving with seven or eight
hundred troops in the southeast when the French are expected,
So he never gets to go, but there's evidence of
him making decisions about Irish administration and government. He does
get involved. He delegates quite a lot to the people
(22:01):
on the ground, but he has involvement, and I think
in different circumstances he would have gone, and he would
have given it a good shot in trying to make
this reality. He doesn't actually get that opportunity. But that's
really I think for external reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
For people who haven't heard about this French invasion or
planned invasion, it comes to nothing because of weather. So
if you haven't heard of it, that's why. But then
things start to go south for Roberts again in thirteen
eighty six ish because personal reasons.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
What happens, so it's the most extraordinary story. In the
summer of thirteen and eighty six, he employs several of
his servants to abduct one of the queen's ladies of
the Chamber called Agnes Lancrona. She's almost certainly of Bohemian
or German origin, came over with Queen Anne of Bohemia,
(22:56):
so his servants abducted her. After that, he initiates divorce
proceedings in the court at Rome. Divorce in middle age
is very hard to get. There are very few reasons
that you can divorce anybody. But he's accused of fabricating
evidence to ensure that the divorce is passed, which it is,
and then he remarries Agnes formally at some point in
(23:19):
thirty eighty seven. But this is scandalous. He's disparaged ever
the third's granddaughter, her uncle's seventh, whom are Richard's critics
seem to be outraged by this. Understandably, he treats Philippa
pretty shoddily. There's a very small grant to cover some expenses.
It's a scandalous event that all the commentators pick up
(23:43):
on this. It almost certainly makes Robert personally really unpopular.
If it had been unpopular politically perhaps before this, he's
now personally persona on grata amongst a considerable group of
the nobility and others who think this is really unacceptable behavior,
and you know, it is pretty shoddy treatment of his wife.
(24:04):
Why he divorces her, we don't really know. There's no
children after a few years of marriage, but Philip is
only twenty at this stage. There's there's plenty of time.
At least one of the chronicles says he just grew
to detest her. And I think we can see this
either as you know, the breakdown of a relationship, and
it is an arranged marriage. You know, these things do happen.
The other thing is that actually he may just have
(24:26):
completely fallen for Agnes. We must assume, my thing, given
how politically stupid this is to do that he's doing
it because he's you know, he's infatuated with Agnes. There's
no other good explanation. So it's a very personal set
of for circumstances. But of course it does play into
the political and his unpopularity. It also allows all the
(24:50):
chroniclers something else to write very critically about here, and
I think I should probably should have mentioned earlier. Almost
all the source material for Robert Bert in the Chronicles,
it's really hostile. It's all written afterwards fall, it's all vitriolic.
A lot of it sort of rewritten in even nastier
ways a little bit later. So you have to sort
through this material and try and sort the weak from
(25:12):
the chaf if you like.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, well maybe it's worth mentioning that he's disliked by
the English chroniclers. The French chroniclers think he's all right,
except for the fact that he's just dumped the daughter
of one of their war heroes, which is not a
great movie either. But you mentioned that what Robert does
is he abducts Angnes. So do we have a sense
that this is voluntary on.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Her part or what?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Because this is such a fraught word when we're talking
about the Middle Ages, So what's your sense of this.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It's really hard to know. There are enormous social advantages
for Agness in this. She's about to be married, she's
going to become a duchess, become extremely wealthy, huge social elevation.
The abduction might be because the queen isn't terribly keen
on this, doesn't want to lose one of her ladies
and Robert needs to it that way. Equally, it could
(26:04):
be a far more unpleasant, nonvoluntary abduction, And it's really
really hard to know at this book. None of the
chroniclers suggest that it's nonvoluntary, but the fact that there
are people who later have to seek a pardon for
an abduction, and abduction is the word that It's very
hard to really know, but you're right there, there is
(26:26):
that's certainly that possibility that it's nonvoluntary.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yes, because sometimes you have to stage in abduction. This
is a moment where women don't have a lot of
power and she can't exactly say I'd like to leave
the court, you know, so you could make an arrangement
like that. But I wanted to ask you this question
because it could have gone either way. We really want
to know. We'll probably never know.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
No, I'm afraid we probably won't.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, I wanted to take a moment and really think
about this. It's not only because the divorce of the
nument with Philippa is such a big moment for him
politically personally, but also because one of the accusations that
gets flung at Robert de vere in the century since,
although not really at the time, was that he's in
a relationship with Richard himself. So let's talk about that
(27:11):
for a second. Where's this coming from. What do you
think is going on here.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
There's one chronicler who is the most hostile, Thomas Wilson,
who makes a specific allegation, well, it's not that specific
of Richard and Robert sharing and the phrasing translation is
obscene familiarities. It's the only specific allegation that one or
two other chroniclers who use a little bit of that
(27:36):
kind of language, but not terribly specifically about Robert and Richard.
Obviously at that time, it's an allegation that could be
very damaging that, you know, the Society's religious moral code
absolutely condemns homosexuality. It's an allegation that's quite easy to
make them quite hard to disprove, but it's certainly a possibility,
(27:58):
and there's no reason there couldn't have been an a
sexual relationship between the two. My sense is that actually
it's a close friendship rather than a physical relationship. We've
just talked about what appears to be a genuine infatuation
by Robert with Agnes. Richard and Queen Anne seem to
have a very happy marriage. There's plenty of evidence of
(28:20):
Queen Anne trying to have children, this evidence of her
seeking sort of medicine to help with his kind of things.
Richard's totally distraught when she dies in thirty ninety four.
So my sense of this is that Robert and Richard
get on very well, there's a very close friendship, and
it's probably not more than that, but it's a possibility.
(28:40):
As I say, it's also interesting that that very few
commentators really throw that kind of allegation directly at the
two of them. Even Thomas Watsingham in the same sentence
he mentions, I've seen familiarities. He also says that Rob
Devier kept us hold over Richard by black magic. You know,
he's throwing mud and hoping some of it's is my
(29:01):
feeling with this, but as I say, it's not absolutely
impossible by any means.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yes, well, I'm wondering. I wanted to ask you this question.
Do you think that this sort of shading of their
relationship is the long shadow of Pierce Gaveston from Edward
the Seconds reigning? Do you think that without that relationship
earlier in the fourteenth century between Pierce Gaveston and Edward
the Second, do you think that they would even have
(29:26):
thrown this sort of allegation Robert's way.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
There's less contemporary allegations about Peers and over the second
one is perhaps we sometimes think you have to be
quite careful vocalizing those kind of allegations sometimes even in
the reign of Ever with the third who is of
course over the second son, you be careful with what
you're saying. It is, however, one of those allegations that
does crop up, not just in England but across Europe. Actually.
(29:50):
It's one of the hallmarks of a royal favorite, is
this sort of potential of a physical relationship with a
ruler that allows you to influence, into some extent dominate
in a way that you shouldn't. It can apply to
female favorites as well. King's mistresses. Alice Perers in a
decade before is being accused of controlling Edward throughout physical
(30:11):
relationship that she has with him. There might well be
an echo of Piers Gaveston and probably Hugh Dispenser as
well in that, But again that those comparisons are not
specifically made at the time, and there's perhaps less of
the sense of this being accurate with Robert devere perhaps
then earlier.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, well, it's easy to make up stories when everyone
is dead right. You know, you can just say whatever
you want at that point. Yeah, I wanted to ask
that question because these two are always paired together. Not always,
but when people are talking about the Kings of England,
Richard and Edward are paired together, and one of the
things that people will throw at them is these favorites,
(30:53):
and often there is a question of their sexuality, although
I think that you've really gotten into that well for us.
So thirteen eighty seven, the divorce enument happens. By thirteen
eighty eight, everything has gone wrong. What happens.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So this is where it's not in part, it's not
really about Robert. This is the breakdown of Richard's kingship
or Richard's government. He comes under enormous criticism for the
conduct of the war, for his conduct of government. Part
of that is around this perception that Richard's been dominated
by Robert, but also Michael Delapool, the Chancellor, and various others.
(31:32):
And in the Parliament of thirty eighty six, most of
Richard's control of government is taken away from him. It's
given to a commission to exercise government, and Richard finds
this an outrage leaves Westminster travels around the country quite
clearly seeking support, looking for backing to sort of reverse
these decisions that have gone against him, and he also
(31:53):
undertakes a number of provocative actions. He consults a set
of judges who say that all of these things illegal
than anyone who commits this is potentially a traitor, which
is of course fighting talk. And by November thirteen eighty seven,
several key figures, including the future Henry Bolingbrook, the future
Henry the Fourth, but also the King's uncle Thomas of Woodstock,
(32:16):
Duke of Gloucester, they're up in arms against Richard. Robert
de vere is the key figure for Richard. None of
the other people around Richard, like Michael Delapool, attempt military action,
but Robert does. Robert's been made Justice of Chester, which
is the crown sort of leading area to sort of
recruit troops. Robert heads off to Chester, raises an army,
(32:39):
and comes south, intending to meet up with the King
and the King's sort of household troops. But Richard's opponents,
known as the Lord of Penant, they know he's coming
and they effectively trap him in Oxfordshire and maneuver him
into an extremely difficult military position, and what we know
is the Battle of Raycock Bridge, it's will be a
(33:00):
series of skirmishes. Robert's trying to take his Cheshire troops
through these and trying to sort of not get drawn
into a battle. He probably far The reconstructions of that
day show he probably sort of scrapes his way through
maybe even two skirmishes, and then gets caught by a third.
The rependants had destroyed the bridge over the River Thames
(33:20):
that he's attempting to use, and then his army disintegrates.
Robert apparently strips off his armor and swims the Thames
on a December evening, which frankly sounds extremely chilly, but
gets away, presumably shivering, and manages to escape heads briefly
to meet the King at Winds and has a final
(33:43):
chat with him and Richard. Richard hasn't left windsor possibly London,
not quite sure. Richard hasn't attempted to join up with Robert,
and I suspect regrets that because had the King been
at Roundcot Bridge almost certainly the result would have been different.
But Robert has this final, sort of last desperate chat
with his friend and flees into exile.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
And he's in exile for a few years. In the meantime,
everyone is talking about him behind his back. There's a parliament,
and everyone just blackens his name. So what did they
throw at Robert de Vere?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
More than anything else, they throw accusations of treason at him.
And this is one of the issues with royal favorites.
You have to accuse them of a crime for which
the penalty is death, and that's really only treason. Financial corruption,
or even a physical relationship with the king. Those are
not capital crimes. Only treason will do. But of course
(34:39):
it's incredibly difficult to accuse someone like rober de Vere
of treason. He's worked with the king, he's fought for
the king, he's not been conspiring with a foreign enemy,
although those accusations are made up and thrown at him.
And in the end, even with this very sympathetic parliament,
there are a whole series of charges of treason that
are dismissed because it's just too ridiculous. He is, in
the end found give of treason, as are a number
(35:02):
of the court circle around Richard, and his goods and
his lands are forfeited, and it means, at least for
a while, Richard's going to have to do without Robert,
and Robert's going to have to stay in exile. There
is an attempt in thirty ninety two by Richard to
try and bring him back, to try and get that reversed,
and there's quite a lot of opposition still in thirteen
(35:22):
ninety two to any sort of return. There's a lot
of accusations of treason. There are also accusations about Robert
enriching himself and controlling the king and all of those
kind of things, but they're not crimes in quite the
same way. So it's one of those very difficult things
getting rid of of a royal favorite.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, it's especially difficult because Richard's just gone off into
the countryside and had judges tell him that anything that
basically hurts his feelings is treason. So then when this
parliament happens, they have to very deliberately not do that,
go back to add the Third's ideas about what is
treason and why isn't and then all of a sudden,
it's very hard to prove, as you're saying, But they
(36:03):
do prove it in the end, as we all knew
they would, because that was the total intent of this
Parliament in the first place.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, But and you're quite right that the thirteen
to fifty two statue to trees and there, but the
third's great statue it basically says anything that's trees and
is killing the king or plotting to kill him, and
conspiring with a foreign enemy. And quite obviously Robert de
vere hasn't done any of those things. So it's a
very hard legal problem to get over. It's a political
answer to a legal problem.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
So what happens to Robert in exile? We don't really
look at people's exile all that often. It's usually they
go off, usually to France, they hang out for a while.
What do we know about Robert in these years?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
So Roberts crosses the channel and he makes his way
to the French courts. He's actually accepted there quite well.
He's welcomed. Richards had quite good relations over the last
year or two with the French court. They've been beginning
to move towards a peace tree. Richard's almost certainly writing
letters to the King of France saying please welcome my friend.
(37:06):
And he's received there very well. He's there probably for
about a year. There's positive comments on his prowess at jousting.
He seems to get on quite well with a lot
of people around the court. His problem is that one
of the great lords around the French court is his
father in law, the Lord de Couci, whose daughter Robert
(37:26):
has divorced and disparaged. And the main source for this,
which is the Great Chronicle of Froissar, says that in
the end, Lord de Coucy sort of made it Paris
so unwelcoming for Robert that he feels he needs to leave.
He asks the king for help to find somewhere to
go into exile, and the King of France writes to
his aunt, and he heads off to Brabant in what
(37:48):
is now Belgium, and settles down in Leuven. Apparently has
a townhouse and rents a castle nearby. There's evidence that
he's got plenty of money coming in. He'd been granted
a really well through ransom, which was beginning to pay
dividends in thirty eighty seven. That ransom had been to
finance his lordship in Ireland. But actually he's still able
to collect it even though he's in exile, so he's
(38:09):
got probably quite a lot of money. And he settles
down there. His mother comes over to visit him at
some point in thirteen eighty nine. We don't know whether
Agnes was with him or whether she remained in England,
but he's there for about three years, and then in
the autumn of thirteen ninety two, h just thirty, he dies,
and we again we don't really know why. One chronicle
(38:33):
says a short sickness, another one says he was killed
in a boar hunt. I suspect sickness is a little
bit more likely, but yeah, it's something of an anticlimax
almost that that thirty ninety two, he just dies of
natural causes. A career like that, you almost expect a
brutal execution or something like that. But no, he dies
of natural causes in exile.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yes, well, I've been spending a lot of time with
Charles the Six lately, and so for people who have
been the same to that stuff, Charles is fully in
control of all of his senses at this point during
Robert's time in France, and so he's able to help
him and also celebrate him as being a great tournament.
But yeah, I suppose you do have a short illness
after your gourd by a wild boar. Maybe, But yeah,
(39:17):
you do want this to be sort of a spectacular
and given the fact that everyone in England has talked
about this guy like he's public Enemy number one, you
expect there to be some sort of fantastic finish to this.
But he just dies, probably of illness. This is just
the way it goes in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, and it's worth again contrasting with the appalling ends
of Pier Gamerston who's beheaded, of hughter Spenser who is
carved to bits in the marketplace in thirty and twenty six. Robert, Yeah,
you would expect, and many favorites come to these horrible ends,
but Roberts, because he's in exile, has a certain degree
of safety. In the end. It's the medieval germ that
(39:59):
gets him.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yes, well, it makes me wonder a little bit because,
foreshadowing to a few years later, which we don't need
to get into for this podcast, Richard exiles his cousin
who is one of the appellants who is involved in
chasing down his favorite Robert, just before.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Thirteen eighty eight.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
And I know that exile is something that has done
a lot in the Middle Ages, but do you think
that maybe there is a little bit of a sting
put in Richard's exile of Henry. Given that he's exiled
his best friend, you think that there's something personal in
there as well.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
I suspect there's quite a bit of personal animosity that
thirteen ninety seven, Richard turns on most of the former repellents,
executes and exiles several of them. At this point, his cousin,
Henry bolding Brook has switched sides. But I think thirty
ninety seven there's a great deal of that is revenge
for what happened earlier. Why he waits so long, There's
(40:58):
different questions about that, but I think there's a great
deal that's going on in Richard's head that says, I
want to get back at the people who humiliated me
as king, who caused my best friends to present to exile,
who executed a string of other advisors, his former boyhood tutors,
Simon Burley and others. So that whole incident, I think
(41:18):
is really driving what happens in those last two years
of Richard's reign, and ultimately, of course, leads to Richard's
own downfall.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yes, I'm simplifying it way too much. This is such
an interesting reign in general, and so for people who
want to learn more about Richard's feelings and his revenge.
He's just fascinating. And you can even start with Shakespeare
if you like, because that is a beautiful play Richard
the Second Right. So now that we know more about Robert,
I'm going to ask you the question now that I
would normally ask at the beginning, and that is why
(41:49):
Robert de Vere Why are we interested in him? Because
he is somebody that was universally hated by English chroniclers.
So it took a lot of work to find this
person underneath all that was it that caught your imagination.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
So I've actually I've worked on the divine family more generally.
That was the subject of my doctoral thesis, and I've
studied mainly the fifteenth century family. Robert de Vi. I
did some early work on and thought he's a really
interesting figure. In the end, I didn't sort of he
didn't become part of my thesis, and I came back
to him, and he's fascinating on a lot of levels.
(42:25):
I like taking on hostile source material and seeing how
you can take a different sort of slant to it.
I liked trying to use other evidence to create a
more rounded picture and what I tried to do, as
I say, coming from the position of studying the family,
is put Robert back as a great member of the
late medie vulnerability, which I think is often forgotten with him.
He's always seen as sort of this upstart, and he
(42:48):
does get social promotion. He's made a Marcus and then
a duke, but he's naturally a great nobleman and courtier
in the way that almost none of those other favorites are.
As we mentioned, he gets lumped in with Aberson and Spenser.
He's an earl, He's someone of a far higher social
status than any of the other favorites. So I thought
a reevaluation is perhaps what really struck me with this.
(43:11):
I hope the book isn't a whitewash. You know, Robert
de vere is in many ways probably not a terribly
attractive character. Certainly, his treatment of Philippa is pretty unpleasant.
He may well have been one of those sort of
obnoxious people at court who was always making snide jokes
or something. I don't know. There are aspects of his
career that where he clearly doesn't quite get it right.
(43:33):
But I do also think he's someone where just having
another look at him and taking some of that hostile
source material out of it creates a much more round
and interesting figure, and I hope sheds a different sort
of perspective on Richard's On Richard's thirteen eighties, and it's
not just about his misdistribution of patronage. That there's a
faction that they're trying to do things. They're trying to govern,
(43:53):
they're trying to sort out Ireland, they're trying to rule
despite some of the great difficulties of the Hundred Year
War or lack of parliamentary taxation, and some pretty vitriotic
critics really really early on of Richard's style of government.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, this is the type of book that I love
to look at because I do think that it's very
easy to just cast people who are supporting characters, perhaps
around kings, as just being flat or two dimensional, or
maybe taking the chroniclers at face value, and that's not
necessarily fair to the people who we're living at this time,
because we all know that chroniclers are a bit gossipy,
(44:31):
a bit spicy about people, and maybe we need to
look at these more carefully. So thank you so much
for coming on and telling us more about this person
who is fascinating and needed a second look. Thank you
so much James for being here.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Well, thank you very much. It's been lovely in discussing him.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
To find out more about James's work, you can visit
his faculty page at the University of Winchester. His new
book is Robert de vere Earl of Oxford and Duke
of Ireland thirteen sixty two to thirteen ninety two, The
Rise and Fall of a Royal Favorite. Before we go,
here's Peter from medievalis dot Net to tell us what's
on the website.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
What's up, Peter?
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Hey, Hey, So if you're looking for a castle to visit,
you can now go to Norwich Castle in eastern England.
All right, Yeah, it's reopened effort. It's it had a
two year project a for restoration, rebilitation and it's all
done up on the inside with a lot of digital projections,
recreations of artwork, some costumed performers inside, so very family friendly.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
That sounds awesome.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I'm one of the persons that prefer like a really ruined.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Castle, one that's just stones.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Indeed, no roofs at all.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So I mean there's a lot that are good like that, like,
I'm thinking about Rochester Castle, which unless they've changed it
in the last twenty five years. When I saw it first,
there was no floors, like a hundred foot drop, which
was awesome.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
I had it. I love that too, And so we
have a piece about what they did there and information
on how to visit. Plus we have a piece on
Francesco Guiccardini. He's a very famous Florentine statesman and ambassador
from the early sixteenth century. He wrote up quite a
lot of stuff, so he's one of those like Renaissance writers.
(46:15):
But I found out he did these political maxims advice
that he kind of gave to himself, and I think
it was for his family, but eventually it all got
published and I found it reading through it. It's a
nice bit of political advice, even for today. He's a
very shrewd guy, so you kind of think of princes,
you can think of presidents, all right. My favorite one
(46:38):
is this one. If you were involved in important affairs
or seeking power, you must always hide your failures and
exaggerate your successes. It is a form of swim link
and very much against my nature. But since your fate
more often depends upon the opinion of others rather than
on the facts. It is a good idea to create
the impression that things are going well. The opposite reputation
(47:02):
will be harmful to you.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So I love how he's like, this is against my nature,
but I'm totally doing it all the time.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Anyway.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
I can imagine that politicians will be astounded at this
because none of them would think like that. But maybe
they should.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
M Yeah, this is when we say la plu sa change. Right,
but you have one more thing that is a lot
more positive to tell us about, right.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Indeed. Indeed, we're doing a back to school sale on
our think if It courses. It's been a good summer
of getting some courses out, but we're really going hard
in September with the six courses between now and October first,
including yours.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, I'm starting September twelfth, and I'm going to go
for five weeks and tell people about the fourteenth century,
which is the best century of course.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
Indeed. Indeed, so you can take Danielle's course or one
of the others, or in factories take them all.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yeah, and what's the sale.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Is fifteen percent off any of these courses. Anyone's we're offering,
and all you have to use is coupon code. Back
to School all one word when you go on Medieval
Studies dot thinkific dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
All right, back to school, looking forward to it, and
I'm looking forward to opening the digital classroom.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It's gonna be awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Well, thank you Peter for stopping by and telling us
what's on the website.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
We're coming to the end of my mini series, This
Is History presents The Glass King, and this week it's
all about how a Queen's got to do What a
queen's got to do? Well, that and some pretty history
altering violence. So business as usual in early fifteenth century Paris.
Head over to This Is History to get yourself caught
up before next week's finale, when we find out what
(48:45):
happens to King Charles and the Kingdom of France. Thank you,
as always to all of you for supporting my work,
either on this podcast or The Glass King by listening, sharing,
letting me ads play through, or becoming on patreon dot com.
Patrons have a special place in my heart because without you,
(49:05):
none of this would be possible. To find out more
or to become a patron, please visit Patreon dot com
slash Medievalists for everything from royal favors to medieval flavors.
Follow medievalist dot net on Instagram at medievalist net or
blue sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle Sabowski
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(49:30):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is by Christian Overton. Thanks for listening. Have
yourself an amazing day.
Hi everyone, and welcome to episode three oh four of
the Medieval podcast. I'm your host Danielle Sebolski. When the
power of an entire kingdom rests in the hands of
(00:22):
just one man, it's both incredibly valuable and incredibly dangerous
to be that man's bestie. Lavished with gifts, lands, and power,
Medieval royal favorites rarely made it to old age without
incurring the animosity of rivals for the king's affection, often
with deadly consequences, and the legacies of royal favorites tend
(00:44):
to retain that taint of contemporary snark. So maybe it's
time we take a second, less jaundiced look at royal favorites,
starting with today's episode. This week, I spoke with doctor
James Ross about the life of Robert de Vere, the
infamous eff of King Richard the Second. James is a
reader in late medieval history at the University of Winchester
(01:06):
and the author of several books, including John Devere thirteenth,
Earl of Oxford fourteen forty two to fifteen thirteen, The
Foremost Man in the Kingdom and Henry the sixth a Good,
simple and Innocent Man. His new book is Robert de Vere,
Earl of Oxford and Duke of Ireland thirteen sixty two
(01:26):
to thirteen ninety two, The Rise and Fall of a
Royal Favorite. Our conversation on what we know about Robert
de Vere, his impact on Richard the Second and the
English Kingdom, and why it's always worth taking a second
look at the facts is coming up right after this. Well,
welcome James to talk about Robert de Vere. This is
(01:48):
so exciting for me because this is a guy that
seems pivotal to history, and yet we don't know all
that much about him, or I didn't before I read
your book. So thank you for coming on and telling
us about.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Robert de Vere.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you very much for asking me.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, so before we can understand who this guy is,
we need to know when and where we are, because
he's attached to the court of Richard the Second, which
king is Richard the Second.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So Richard the Second is king from thirteen seventy seven
to thirteen ninety nine, the end of the fourteenth century.
He's the grandson of Edward the Third, the great victor
of the first part of the One Hundred Years War.
But Richard inherits as a young man. He's only ten
years old when he becomes king, and he inherits the
(02:34):
throne at a time when England's actually not in a
great place. The one hundred Years War is now not
going nearly as well as it had done under the
glory years of his grandfather, and his early years are
a real struggle to try and reassert royal authority. That
coincides also his early years with the peasants' revolts, so
there's pressure from below. Economic conditions and not as good
(02:56):
as they had been earlier, so it's a difficult period
in which to in which to start becoming king, and
the troubles continue throughout his reign. He's of course eventually
deposed and quietly murdered in fourteen hundred. So it's a
tough reign and a tough time to be king.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, and it's never easy coming to the throne when
you're ten years old. Not speaking from experience, but I
imagine it's not very easy to do that.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
No, a lot of royal minorities, there are problems that
are created there, and often kings who really struggle to
sort of assert their personal authority once they've become older.
Richard interestingly tries very early, even as an early teenager,
he's trying to push his authority and that doesn't go
to herbly well, as we may get into later.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes, well, I was speaking to Helen Caster when her
book came though, The Eagle in the Heart where she's
looking at Richard the second and Henry the fourth, and
one of the things that she mentions that's probably relevant
to the way that Richard sees himself as we start
to introduce him here on this podcast, is that people
have told him he's great, that he's the Savior, he's
going to be the best, and so you can see
(04:00):
him playing with power early on because that's what he's
been told he is meant for.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah. Absolutely. I would also say actually, early on he
does have some successes. He shows great personal bravery during
the Presents of Aorltron Thirsty and eighty one, aged about fourteen.
I think that sets in his mind the fact that
he's a great king who's going to do great things,
and it's never quite as good after that in some respect.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yes, Okay, so we're going to be talking more about
Richard as we talk about Robert, because their faiths are
intertwined in a lot of ways. So let's switch over
to Robert for a second. Where does he come from,
where's his family? What's he all about?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So he's the eldest son of the Earl of Oxford,
so he's born into the aristocracy. He's born to also,
like Richard, to inherit a title his family. They're based
in East Anglia, in Essex and Suffolk. They're a very
long established family. They've been Earls of Oxford since the
eleven forties. Not the wealthiest noble family, nor have they
(05:02):
been enormously politically prominent, but they're perhaps wealthier than people
have realized. And the couple of generations before so Robert's
father and grandfather brilliant military records. They fought to all
the big battles in the first part of the One
Hundred Years War really successfully. So there are family, in
some respects actually on the up, but not at quite
(05:23):
the same level as the most prominent and most wealthy nobility.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well a good start, right, He's got a title behind him.
His uncle you mentioned is already at the royal courts,
already making.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Waves there in subtle waves.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
But he's there, and so this is a good place
for somebody to start out live.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, it's a good inheritance. His uncle, as you mentioned,
very close to the Black Prince, Richard the Second's father,
the heir to the throne until he predeceases ever by
a year. The issue for Robert is, of course, his
father dies when he's nine, so he becomes a ward
of the crown. Obviously a personal tragedy, but actually that
does also give him another advantage. He's growing up at court,
(06:06):
he very early, quite early on, he's married to the
first granddaughter, Philippa Decusi, so he's got a good moutal
link with the royal family. He probably knows Richard from
quite early on, from sort of thirteen seventy six, eighty
and seventy seven onwards, so that the two of them
go up in close proximity to each other. Robert's about
(06:27):
five years older than rich the Second, but there's another
good advantage there and in sort of good connections at court.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, and I hadn't realized before reading your book that
Robert's father had also died when he was young, and
so this might be something that the two of them
bonded over. Like we have to remember as we're talking
about these big royal figures that they're also human beings,
started off as boys who had a bit of trauma
in the background, and maybe this is something that connected
them early on. But yeah, this wedding that he has
(06:56):
to the granddaughter of the Great King Edward the third,
this is this is great for him, And I want
to spend a second emphasizing how great this is for
him because eventually that doesn't go so well.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
No, absolutely, and I mean, as we will talk about
it a bit later, that that marriage goes horribly wrong,
but it is you know, it's a great advantage early
on that linked to the royal family. I think he
spends a lot of time going up at court with
Philippa and his mother in law, who's over the third daughter,
Princess Isabella. Philippo's an airess. She's not a hugely wealthy
erres but she brings lands to the family, which is
(07:29):
also a really important aspect of this. So it's a
great marriage. But again it's arranged for Robert. Robert isn't
going out and seeking a royal bride. He's only fourteen
when this marriage is effectively imposed on him. But there
are enormous advantages, or they should have been as far
as Robert's concern.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yes, and I think it's important that we established that
we spend this time establishing that Robert's place at the
court is completely normal. This is something that you really
get at in the book, because later he's going to
be accused of all sorts of things, but right now,
it's just a normal place for a normal noble guy.
He gets married to a great woman or a child
at this point, he gets into a great marriage, is
(08:08):
what I'm trying to say, And everything seems to be
just a totally normal start for somebody of his rank.
And then one last thing that I wanted to imagine
is that when you've looked into the peasants revolt as well,
his family seems to be well regarded enough that they're
not really targeted by the peasants as well. So this
family is really well regarded at least at the start.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yes, and I think that's absolutely right. I mean, there's
only ten to fifteen earls in England. He's born to
this extremely high rank. He would be absolutely naturally at court,
a natural advisor of the crown. All the nobility sow
themselves as the natural counselors. He can come to court.
He's hereditary Lord Great Chamberlain, which means he's one of
(08:51):
the senior partly ceremonial but partly slightly more than ceremonial
officials at the royal court. Even if you haven't become
a controversial figure, he would been around at court a
great deal. He would have been a natural advisor of
the king. As I said the family, I would say
on the way up, if they're doing a good job.
They don't seem to be unpopular or particularly harsh landlords,
(09:12):
and they're not targeted in the peasants revolt. Robert's actually
on campaign in France when the revolt breaks out, so
he's not a contributory factor, or perhaps even in his
absence he's contributing fact because perhaps had he been there
and might have helped calm aspects of the revolt down
in his region.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So when do you find Richard and Robert spending more
time together? When do they start to be a pair
of people that people are like, Okay, these guys are closed,
they're besties. Where do you start to see that In
the records you can.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Place them at certain points together from early in the
reign and probably before Richard becomes king. But the point
at which I think you can really date a close
friendship is the dramatic events of the Peasants Revolt in
thirteen eighty one. Richard's in the tower for some of this.
He's really worried for his personal safety. He as a
fourteen year old boy. He has to go and negotiate
(10:04):
with these groups of angry ordinary people. And as far
as we can tell, Robert was with him throughout all
of this, and perhaps more so than anyone else, And
speculatively you can see the fourteen year old boy sort
of leaning on the nineteen year old Robert de Vere
for advice, for support, and I think Robert helps him
(10:24):
throughout all of this. That's where I would date at
the start of a really close friendship. And from there
on you can see Robert being at court a bit more.
You begin to start seeing grants and patronage to him,
not enormous amounts, and again perhaps we'll touch on that
a little bit later, but I think from that point
onwards there's a close friendship.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yes, I don't think you can overemphasize that moment in
the Peasants Revolt where Richard has to go out and
confront the crowds. This is just such an important moment
in his life, and so reading your book and seeing
that Robert was there with him during these traumatic few days,
I think that really speaks greatly to what their relationship
(11:04):
will become later. And then something else that you mentioned
in your book that I think is relevant is that
there are a few people of that age at the
court at this time. So Richard is meant to be
surrounded by people at a certain rank, and there's only
a few of those people that are teenagers at this point,
and so you know, you're naturally going to gravitate to
your peers. I think, so this is an important moment
(11:26):
to sort of see maybe the seeds of their friendship
really starting.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, And I think boys being boys
not you know that if there was a series of
teenage boys, that not all of them are going to
get on. And actually two of those people of equivalent
age end up turning against Richard and Robert in thirteen
eighty seven and they become two of the Lord's repellants
who fight Richard. So those sort of personal tensions, it's
very hard to really get an insight into that sometimes,
(11:51):
but there's this little group and they don't all get on,
but Robert and Richard do. And I think it is
definitely obvious from that point in first and eighty one on.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, So, as you say, we're in thirteen eighty one
and then their friendship starts to grow, Richard starts to
get more power.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Tell us a little bit about how this evolves.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Richard from that point in thirty and eighty one onwards,
has in his head, I think, proved himself as a king,
and actually most of the political nation begin to accept
he's almost old enough. He begins to exercise a little
bit of power. He gets married the year afterward, another
sort of big life cycle events, and increasingly he begins
to get control over the resources of his crown and
(12:31):
begins to make decisions, and you begin to see Roberts
at court. You begin to see Richard granting a little
bit of patronage to Robert, confirming some grants, and the
beginning of a rise for Robert in some respects natural
nobleman though he is, he's increasingly perhaps important in that
(12:52):
group around Richard.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, this is important because, as you're saying, and this
is a huge part of your book, you're saying this
is an there are a meteoric rise. This is just
little trickles here and there. And this is sort of
counter to what the narrative has been that Robert was
immediately just sort of thrown gifts, that gifts are always
falling into his that and that's not the sense that
you got from the records, right.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No, there are a number of small ish grants in
those first few years, from sort of thirty eighty two
to about summer of thirty and eighty five. None of
them on their own are politically objectionable. They're mainly grants
in areas where Debiro already holds lands, none of them
of enormous sort of financial value. The Crown is financially
(13:36):
really strapped at this time, and I suspect they're not
enormously popular simply because there's not a lot to go around.
And perhaps Robert's getting a little bit more than others,
though by no means vastly more. But it's also fair
to set at this point half of Robert's ancestral lands
were in the hands of his mother, so he's a
little bit more strapped for cash than he would otherwise
(13:58):
normally have been. Also a sense of an expectation that
Philippa will have some support from the crown as the
granddaughter of Ever the third. It's almost natural that there
will be a certain amount of patronage coming to Robert,
but it's absolutely not meteoric. And you can also flip
it around to say that although Robert's involved at court
(14:20):
and is clearly in the King's presence a lot, there
is very very little evidence that he abuses his position there.
I think there was something like eight grants that you
can see him signing or ceiling as the king's chamberlain.
That's eighteen four or five years. It's hardly sort of
a vice like grasp on patronage, which is how one
or two who Serians have sort of put it. There
(14:40):
aren't lots of grants to his servants or friends. He
doesn't seem to be abusing his position around the king
in any obvious way, and certainly not as obviously as
perhaps some of the other notorious royal favorites early in
the century Peters Gaveston or Q. Despenser in the second sign,
there's no kind of equivalent for that.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So we mentioned that he is a chamberlain. Tell us
a little bit about what his job actually is so
that we can compare it to what people are accusing
him of starting at this moment and maybe a bit later,
what's what's his job?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So chamberlain is the role is really to control access
to the king's chamber to some extent of his private chambers.
It's it's more than a doorkeeper, but it's that kind
of aspect or that kind of type of role. There
are two chamblains. There's the King's Chamberlain, he's a household official,
and then there's the Great Chamberlain, who's the role is
(15:34):
more ceremonial, but when he's actually present at court, the
Great Chamberlain outranks the King's Chamberlain, and I think you know,
to some extent. When he is at court, the Great
Champlain takes on aspects of that role. So this is
important because a lot of the politics around role favorites
is about the favorites being accused of controlling access to
the king, not letting people get to the king, or
(15:57):
taking bribes to let people in, or because they can
be always with the king whispering in his ear and
not allowing other people to influence him. So there's a
lot of politics around controlling access and again I mentioned
other royal favorites like hud Spencer. He's the king's chamberlain.
Controlling accesses is important to Robert de Vere is present
(16:20):
at Richard's court. He's clearly got this role, but there's
not a not really any obvious evidence of him really
abusing it and manipulating it in the way I think
that he's accused of doing, or popularly thought of doing.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes, well, it seems like a position where you're very
exposed anyway that if people are going to come, they're
going to come for you, because you are the person
who ostensibly is in control of who the king sees.
And it makes sense to me that you'd put somebody
that you really like and get along with in that position.
And so again Robert Devere's position, it is hereditary, as
(16:57):
you're saying, so like this is something that he's been
born to do. He's in this position, and then all
of a sudden his head is way above the parap
it So it seems like there's a tipping point where
things go from this is just a normal relationship to
where people start to get really upset by it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So what do you think is the tipping point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
There are I think two tipping points. One we'll come
on to a little bit later, and that's his personal life,
and we've touched on Philip A. De Acuci a little
bit earlier. That's one. The political one is the autumn
of fourteen eighty five when Robert is given an extraordinary
grant of the Lordship of Ireland control over effectively all
(17:38):
the Crown's rights and possessions in Ireland. And that is
the point when Robert goes from to some extent, an
understandabook career that's been keeping with his rank, to something
that's a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Do you think that this is all that strange? Like
I know that people at the moment are looking at
this as being not very cool that he's been given
this position. But given the fact that Richard doesn't have
an air, is this really a strange appointment?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I don't think it's that strange an appointment In some respects,
what I think Richard is doing here is something that's
quite innovative, quite different. The English lordship in Ireland's been
under pressure for decades from native Irish, from Scottish interference
earlier in the fourteenth century, but the English haven't really
(18:27):
done anything. There's occasionally bigger expeditions, but most of the
time a lieutenant is sent out with inadequate resources to
try and just hold the fort. What Richard is doing
here is giving one man the power to try and
do something different. Richard promises him lots of money. Robert
undertakes to have one and a half thousand troops there
for several years, the kind of power and resources that
(18:50):
could make a difference, that could really turn the tide.
And a lot of historians have tended to look at
this as giving Robert. I'm going to quote Tuck. I
think it is this shadows and trappings of power. I
think actually it's a genuine attempt to sort out a problem.
Robert is someone Richard trusts. He doesn't have interests in Ireland.
(19:11):
But actually maybe that's a good thing. He's someone who
can stand apart from the problem had doesn't already isn't
mixed up in it. The fact that this grant never
quite works is for external reasons, I think, rather than
the fact it was flawed or just about image and
the trappings of power. So it's a fairly extraordinary grant.
But I think I can see the logic in it.
(19:33):
I can see what Richard, I think, is trying to do.
He's also, it should be pointed out, taking advice from
Irish lords. There's a delegation in Westminster that autumn and
they're talking to the king about this, and I think
it's not just Richard going, oh, here's a bright idea.
I think he's taking advice on this, and what they're
saying is send a lord to Ireland with lots of
(19:55):
power to be able to do something and turn the tide.
And I think that's what Richard does. It's not seen
that way by historians. A lot of contemporaries, fairly soon
afterwards criticize it for all sorts of reasons, but I
do think it's worth taking quite seriously as a piece
of governmental policy rather than a grant to a favorite.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yes, well, this is the whole reason that you're on
this podcast because of these detailed looks that you take
into this, where other people have just kind of passed
over it as being what the people have said, the
chroniclers have said is probably true, must be true. So
I appreciate the way that you're looking at this. So
let's just finish that out. How does it go in Ireland.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Well, a whole string of problems. Firstly, Richard doesn't have
the money, or rather Parliament won't grant him the money initially,
and that means Robert's absolutely hamstrung in terms of financing
the troops he's meant to send over. There's trickles of
money earlier on. Eventually he's granted a large ransom, but
(20:56):
that doesn't start paying off until nearly two years later
from the time of the grant, so Robert really struggles
to get the financial resources. There are troops sent over.
There's about eight hundred troops sent over in the spring
of thirteen eighty six. Robert never goes to Ireland. And
that's the other reason A lot of historians have could
have criticized the grant. But the reason I think he
(21:18):
doesn't go to Ireland is that thirteen eighty six, when
there's evidence he is preparing to go, England is under
the greatest threat of invasion for decades. There's a massive
French fleet being arranged, and from the spring onwards, the
as a whole series of orders about defending the country,
and I suspect Robert thinks I can't go. It may
even be Riches as you can't go. I need you here.
(21:39):
I need you to defend the east coast, which is
where a lot of his lands are. In the summer
of thirteen eighty six, he's serving with seven or eight
hundred troops in the southeast when the French are expected,
So he never gets to go, but there's evidence of
him making decisions about Irish administration and government. He does
get involved. He delegates quite a lot to the people
(22:01):
on the ground, but he has involvement, and I think
in different circumstances he would have gone, and he would
have given it a good shot in trying to make
this reality. He doesn't actually get that opportunity. But that's
really I think for external reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
For people who haven't heard about this French invasion or
planned invasion, it comes to nothing because of weather. So
if you haven't heard of it, that's why. But then
things start to go south for Roberts again in thirteen
eighty six ish because personal reasons.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
What happens, so it's the most extraordinary story. In the
summer of thirteen and eighty six, he employs several of
his servants to abduct one of the queen's ladies of
the Chamber called Agnes Lancrona. She's almost certainly of Bohemian
or German origin, came over with Queen Anne of Bohemia,
(22:56):
so his servants abducted her. After that, he initiates divorce
proceedings in the court at Rome. Divorce in middle age
is very hard to get. There are very few reasons
that you can divorce anybody. But he's accused of fabricating
evidence to ensure that the divorce is passed, which it is,
and then he remarries Agnes formally at some point in
(23:19):
thirty eighty seven. But this is scandalous. He's disparaged ever
the third's granddaughter, her uncle's seventh, whom are Richard's critics
seem to be outraged by this. Understandably, he treats Philippa
pretty shoddily. There's a very small grant to cover some expenses.
It's a scandalous event that all the commentators pick up
(23:43):
on this. It almost certainly makes Robert personally really unpopular.
If it had been unpopular politically perhaps before this, he's
now personally persona on grata amongst a considerable group of
the nobility and others who think this is really unacceptable behavior,
and you know, it is pretty shoddy treatment of his wife.
(24:04):
Why he divorces her, we don't really know. There's no
children after a few years of marriage, but Philip is
only twenty at this stage. There's there's plenty of time.
At least one of the chronicles says he just grew
to detest her. And I think we can see this
either as you know, the breakdown of a relationship, and
it is an arranged marriage. You know, these things do happen.
The other thing is that actually he may just have
(24:26):
completely fallen for Agnes. We must assume, my thing, given
how politically stupid this is to do that he's doing
it because he's you know, he's infatuated with Agnes. There's
no other good explanation. So it's a very personal set
of for circumstances. But of course it does play into
the political and his unpopularity. It also allows all the
(24:50):
chroniclers something else to write very critically about here, and
I think I should probably should have mentioned earlier. Almost
all the source material for Robert Bert in the Chronicles,
it's really hostile. It's all written afterwards fall, it's all vitriolic.
A lot of it sort of rewritten in even nastier
ways a little bit later. So you have to sort
through this material and try and sort the weak from
(25:12):
the chaf if you like.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, well maybe it's worth mentioning that he's disliked by
the English chroniclers. The French chroniclers think he's all right,
except for the fact that he's just dumped the daughter
of one of their war heroes, which is not a
great movie either. But you mentioned that what Robert does
is he abducts Angnes. So do we have a sense
that this is voluntary on.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Her part or what?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Because this is such a fraught word when we're talking
about the Middle Ages, So what's your sense of this.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It's really hard to know. There are enormous social advantages
for Agness in this. She's about to be married, she's
going to become a duchess, become extremely wealthy, huge social elevation.
The abduction might be because the queen isn't terribly keen
on this, doesn't want to lose one of her ladies
and Robert needs to it that way. Equally, it could
(26:04):
be a far more unpleasant, nonvoluntary abduction, And it's really
really hard to know at this book. None of the
chroniclers suggest that it's nonvoluntary, but the fact that there
are people who later have to seek a pardon for
an abduction, and abduction is the word that It's very
hard to really know, but you're right there, there is
(26:26):
that's certainly that possibility that it's nonvoluntary.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yes, because sometimes you have to stage in abduction. This
is a moment where women don't have a lot of
power and she can't exactly say I'd like to leave
the court, you know, so you could make an arrangement
like that. But I wanted to ask you this question
because it could have gone either way. We really want
to know. We'll probably never know.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
No, I'm afraid we probably won't.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, I wanted to take a moment and really think
about this. It's not only because the divorce of the
nument with Philippa is such a big moment for him
politically personally, but also because one of the accusations that
gets flung at Robert de vere in the century since,
although not really at the time, was that he's in
a relationship with Richard himself. So let's talk about that
(27:11):
for a second. Where's this coming from. What do you
think is going on here.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
There's one chronicler who is the most hostile, Thomas Wilson,
who makes a specific allegation, well, it's not that specific
of Richard and Robert sharing and the phrasing translation is
obscene familiarities. It's the only specific allegation that one or
two other chroniclers who use a little bit of that
(27:36):
kind of language, but not terribly specifically about Robert and Richard.
Obviously at that time, it's an allegation that could be
very damaging that, you know, the Society's religious moral code
absolutely condemns homosexuality. It's an allegation that's quite easy to
make them quite hard to disprove, but it's certainly a possibility,
(27:58):
and there's no reason there couldn't have been an a
sexual relationship between the two. My sense is that actually
it's a close friendship rather than a physical relationship. We've
just talked about what appears to be a genuine infatuation
by Robert with Agnes. Richard and Queen Anne seem to
have a very happy marriage. There's plenty of evidence of
(28:20):
Queen Anne trying to have children, this evidence of her
seeking sort of medicine to help with his kind of things.
Richard's totally distraught when she dies in thirty ninety four.
So my sense of this is that Robert and Richard
get on very well, there's a very close friendship, and
it's probably not more than that, but it's a possibility.
(28:40):
As I say, it's also interesting that that very few
commentators really throw that kind of allegation directly at the
two of them. Even Thomas Watsingham in the same sentence
he mentions, I've seen familiarities. He also says that Rob
Devier kept us hold over Richard by black magic. You know,
he's throwing mud and hoping some of it's is my
(29:01):
feeling with this, but as I say, it's not absolutely
impossible by any means.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yes, well, I'm wondering. I wanted to ask you this question.
Do you think that this sort of shading of their
relationship is the long shadow of Pierce Gaveston from Edward
the Seconds reigning? Do you think that without that relationship
earlier in the fourteenth century between Pierce Gaveston and Edward
the Second, do you think that they would even have
(29:26):
thrown this sort of allegation Robert's way.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
There's less contemporary allegations about Peers and over the second
one is perhaps we sometimes think you have to be
quite careful vocalizing those kind of allegations sometimes even in
the reign of Ever with the third who is of
course over the second son, you be careful with what
you're saying. It is, however, one of those allegations that
does crop up, not just in England but across Europe. Actually.
(29:50):
It's one of the hallmarks of a royal favorite, is
this sort of potential of a physical relationship with a
ruler that allows you to influence, into some extent dominate
in a way that you shouldn't. It can apply to
female favorites as well. King's mistresses. Alice Perers in a
decade before is being accused of controlling Edward throughout physical
(30:11):
relationship that she has with him. There might well be
an echo of Piers Gaveston and probably Hugh Dispenser as
well in that, But again that those comparisons are not
specifically made at the time, and there's perhaps less of
the sense of this being accurate with Robert devere perhaps
then earlier.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, well, it's easy to make up stories when everyone
is dead right. You know, you can just say whatever
you want at that point. Yeah, I wanted to ask
that question because these two are always paired together. Not always,
but when people are talking about the Kings of England,
Richard and Edward are paired together, and one of the
things that people will throw at them is these favorites,
(30:53):
and often there is a question of their sexuality, although
I think that you've really gotten into that well for us.
So thirteen eighty seven, the divorce enument happens. By thirteen
eighty eight, everything has gone wrong. What happens.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So this is where it's not in part, it's not
really about Robert. This is the breakdown of Richard's kingship
or Richard's government. He comes under enormous criticism for the
conduct of the war, for his conduct of government. Part
of that is around this perception that Richard's been dominated
by Robert, but also Michael Delapool, the Chancellor, and various others.
(31:32):
And in the Parliament of thirty eighty six, most of
Richard's control of government is taken away from him. It's
given to a commission to exercise government, and Richard finds
this an outrage leaves Westminster travels around the country quite
clearly seeking support, looking for backing to sort of reverse
these decisions that have gone against him, and he also
(31:53):
undertakes a number of provocative actions. He consults a set
of judges who say that all of these things illegal
than anyone who commits this is potentially a traitor, which
is of course fighting talk. And by November thirteen eighty seven,
several key figures, including the future Henry Bolingbrook, the future
Henry the Fourth, but also the King's uncle Thomas of Woodstock,
(32:16):
Duke of Gloucester, they're up in arms against Richard. Robert
de vere is the key figure for Richard. None of
the other people around Richard, like Michael Delapool, attempt military action,
but Robert does. Robert's been made Justice of Chester, which
is the crown sort of leading area to sort of
recruit troops. Robert heads off to Chester, raises an army,
(32:39):
and comes south, intending to meet up with the King
and the King's sort of household troops. But Richard's opponents,
known as the Lord of Penant, they know he's coming
and they effectively trap him in Oxfordshire and maneuver him
into an extremely difficult military position, and what we know
is the Battle of Raycock Bridge, it's will be a
(33:00):
series of skirmishes. Robert's trying to take his Cheshire troops
through these and trying to sort of not get drawn
into a battle. He probably far The reconstructions of that
day show he probably sort of scrapes his way through
maybe even two skirmishes, and then gets caught by a third.
The rependants had destroyed the bridge over the River Thames
(33:20):
that he's attempting to use, and then his army disintegrates.
Robert apparently strips off his armor and swims the Thames
on a December evening, which frankly sounds extremely chilly, but
gets away, presumably shivering, and manages to escape heads briefly
to meet the King at Winds and has a final
(33:43):
chat with him and Richard. Richard hasn't left windsor possibly London,
not quite sure. Richard hasn't attempted to join up with Robert,
and I suspect regrets that because had the King been
at Roundcot Bridge almost certainly the result would have been different.
But Robert has this final, sort of last desperate chat
with his friend and flees into exile.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
And he's in exile for a few years. In the meantime,
everyone is talking about him behind his back. There's a parliament,
and everyone just blackens his name. So what did they
throw at Robert de Vere?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
More than anything else, they throw accusations of treason at him.
And this is one of the issues with royal favorites.
You have to accuse them of a crime for which
the penalty is death, and that's really only treason. Financial corruption,
or even a physical relationship with the king. Those are
not capital crimes. Only treason will do. But of course
(34:39):
it's incredibly difficult to accuse someone like rober de Vere
of treason. He's worked with the king, he's fought for
the king, he's not been conspiring with a foreign enemy,
although those accusations are made up and thrown at him.
And in the end, even with this very sympathetic parliament,
there are a whole series of charges of treason that
are dismissed because it's just too ridiculous. He is, in
the end found give of treason, as are a number
(35:02):
of the court circle around Richard, and his goods and
his lands are forfeited, and it means, at least for
a while, Richard's going to have to do without Robert,
and Robert's going to have to stay in exile. There
is an attempt in thirty ninety two by Richard to
try and bring him back, to try and get that reversed,
and there's quite a lot of opposition still in thirteen
(35:22):
ninety two to any sort of return. There's a lot
of accusations of treason. There are also accusations about Robert
enriching himself and controlling the king and all of those
kind of things, but they're not crimes in quite the
same way. So it's one of those very difficult things
getting rid of of a royal favorite.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, it's especially difficult because Richard's just gone off into
the countryside and had judges tell him that anything that
basically hurts his feelings is treason. So then when this
parliament happens, they have to very deliberately not do that,
go back to add the Third's ideas about what is
treason and why isn't and then all of a sudden,
it's very hard to prove, as you're saying, But they
(36:03):
do prove it in the end, as we all knew
they would, because that was the total intent of this
Parliament in the first place.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, But and you're quite right that the thirteen
to fifty two statue to trees and there, but the
third's great statue it basically says anything that's trees and
is killing the king or plotting to kill him, and
conspiring with a foreign enemy. And quite obviously Robert de
vere hasn't done any of those things. So it's a
very hard legal problem to get over. It's a political
answer to a legal problem.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
So what happens to Robert in exile? We don't really
look at people's exile all that often. It's usually they
go off, usually to France, they hang out for a while.
What do we know about Robert in these years?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
So Roberts crosses the channel and he makes his way
to the French courts. He's actually accepted there quite well.
He's welcomed. Richards had quite good relations over the last
year or two with the French court. They've been beginning
to move towards a peace tree. Richard's almost certainly writing
letters to the King of France saying please welcome my friend.
(37:06):
And he's received there very well. He's there probably for
about a year. There's positive comments on his prowess at jousting.
He seems to get on quite well with a lot
of people around the court. His problem is that one
of the great lords around the French court is his
father in law, the Lord de Couci, whose daughter Robert
(37:26):
has divorced and disparaged. And the main source for this,
which is the Great Chronicle of Froissar, says that in
the end, Lord de Coucy sort of made it Paris
so unwelcoming for Robert that he feels he needs to leave.
He asks the king for help to find somewhere to
go into exile, and the King of France writes to
his aunt, and he heads off to Brabant in what
(37:48):
is now Belgium, and settles down in Leuven. Apparently has
a townhouse and rents a castle nearby. There's evidence that
he's got plenty of money coming in. He'd been granted
a really well through ransom, which was beginning to pay
dividends in thirty eighty seven. That ransom had been to
finance his lordship in Ireland. But actually he's still able
to collect it even though he's in exile, so he's
(38:09):
got probably quite a lot of money. And he settles
down there. His mother comes over to visit him at
some point in thirteen eighty nine. We don't know whether
Agnes was with him or whether she remained in England,
but he's there for about three years, and then in
the autumn of thirteen ninety two, h just thirty, he dies,
and we again we don't really know why. One chronicle
(38:33):
says a short sickness, another one says he was killed
in a boar hunt. I suspect sickness is a little
bit more likely, but yeah, it's something of an anticlimax
almost that that thirty ninety two, he just dies of
natural causes. A career like that, you almost expect a
brutal execution or something like that. But no, he dies
of natural causes in exile.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yes, well, I've been spending a lot of time with
Charles the Six lately, and so for people who have
been the same to that stuff, Charles is fully in
control of all of his senses at this point during
Robert's time in France, and so he's able to help
him and also celebrate him as being a great tournament.
But yeah, I suppose you do have a short illness
after your gourd by a wild boar. Maybe, But yeah,
(39:17):
you do want this to be sort of a spectacular
and given the fact that everyone in England has talked
about this guy like he's public Enemy number one, you
expect there to be some sort of fantastic finish to this.
But he just dies, probably of illness. This is just
the way it goes in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, and it's worth again contrasting with the appalling ends
of Pier Gamerston who's beheaded, of hughter Spenser who is
carved to bits in the marketplace in thirty and twenty six. Robert, Yeah,
you would expect, and many favorites come to these horrible ends,
but Roberts, because he's in exile, has a certain degree
of safety. In the end. It's the medieval germ that
(39:59):
gets him.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yes, well, it makes me wonder a little bit because,
foreshadowing to a few years later, which we don't need
to get into for this podcast, Richard exiles his cousin
who is one of the appellants who is involved in
chasing down his favorite Robert, just before.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Thirteen eighty eight.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
And I know that exile is something that has done
a lot in the Middle Ages, but do you think
that maybe there is a little bit of a sting
put in Richard's exile of Henry. Given that he's exiled
his best friend, you think that there's something personal in
there as well.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
I suspect there's quite a bit of personal animosity that
thirteen ninety seven, Richard turns on most of the former repellents,
executes and exiles several of them. At this point, his cousin,
Henry bolding Brook has switched sides. But I think thirty
ninety seven there's a great deal of that is revenge
for what happened earlier. Why he waits so long, There's
(40:58):
different questions about that, but I think there's a great
deal that's going on in Richard's head that says, I
want to get back at the people who humiliated me
as king, who caused my best friends to present to exile,
who executed a string of other advisors, his former boyhood tutors,
Simon Burley and others. So that whole incident, I think
(41:18):
is really driving what happens in those last two years
of Richard's reign, and ultimately, of course, leads to Richard's
own downfall.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yes, I'm simplifying it way too much. This is such
an interesting reign in general, and so for people who
want to learn more about Richard's feelings and his revenge.
He's just fascinating. And you can even start with Shakespeare
if you like, because that is a beautiful play Richard
the Second Right. So now that we know more about Robert,
I'm going to ask you the question now that I
would normally ask at the beginning, and that is why
(41:49):
Robert de Vere Why are we interested in him? Because
he is somebody that was universally hated by English chroniclers.
So it took a lot of work to find this
person underneath all that was it that caught your imagination.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
So I've actually I've worked on the divine family more generally.
That was the subject of my doctoral thesis, and I've
studied mainly the fifteenth century family. Robert de Vi. I
did some early work on and thought he's a really
interesting figure. In the end, I didn't sort of he
didn't become part of my thesis, and I came back
to him, and he's fascinating on a lot of levels.
(42:25):
I like taking on hostile source material and seeing how
you can take a different sort of slant to it.
I liked trying to use other evidence to create a
more rounded picture and what I tried to do, as
I say, coming from the position of studying the family,
is put Robert back as a great member of the
late medie vulnerability, which I think is often forgotten with him.
He's always seen as sort of this upstart, and he
(42:48):
does get social promotion. He's made a Marcus and then
a duke, but he's naturally a great nobleman and courtier
in the way that almost none of those other favorites are.
As we mentioned, he gets lumped in with Aberson and Spenser.
He's an earl, He's someone of a far higher social
status than any of the other favorites. So I thought
a reevaluation is perhaps what really struck me with this.
(43:11):
I hope the book isn't a whitewash. You know, Robert
de vere is in many ways probably not a terribly
attractive character. Certainly, his treatment of Philippa is pretty unpleasant.
He may well have been one of those sort of
obnoxious people at court who was always making snide jokes
or something. I don't know. There are aspects of his
career that where he clearly doesn't quite get it right.
(43:33):
But I do also think he's someone where just having
another look at him and taking some of that hostile
source material out of it creates a much more round
and interesting figure, and I hope sheds a different sort
of perspective on Richard's On Richard's thirteen eighties, and it's
not just about his misdistribution of patronage. That there's a
faction that they're trying to do things. They're trying to govern,
(43:53):
they're trying to sort out Ireland, they're trying to rule
despite some of the great difficulties of the Hundred Year
War or lack of parliamentary taxation, and some pretty vitriotic
critics really really early on of Richard's style of government.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, this is the type of book that I love
to look at because I do think that it's very
easy to just cast people who are supporting characters, perhaps
around kings, as just being flat or two dimensional, or
maybe taking the chroniclers at face value, and that's not
necessarily fair to the people who we're living at this time,
because we all know that chroniclers are a bit gossipy,
(44:31):
a bit spicy about people, and maybe we need to
look at these more carefully. So thank you so much
for coming on and telling us more about this person
who is fascinating and needed a second look. Thank you
so much James for being here.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Well, thank you very much. It's been lovely in discussing him.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
To find out more about James's work, you can visit
his faculty page at the University of Winchester. His new
book is Robert de vere Earl of Oxford and Duke
of Ireland thirteen sixty two to thirteen ninety two, The
Rise and Fall of a Royal Favorite. Before we go,
here's Peter from medievalis dot Net to tell us what's
on the website.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
What's up, Peter?
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Hey, Hey, So if you're looking for a castle to visit,
you can now go to Norwich Castle in eastern England.
All right, Yeah, it's reopened effort. It's it had a
two year project a for restoration, rebilitation and it's all
done up on the inside with a lot of digital projections,
recreations of artwork, some costumed performers inside, so very family friendly.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
That sounds awesome.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I'm one of the persons that prefer like a really ruined.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Castle, one that's just stones.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Indeed, no roofs at all.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So I mean there's a lot that are good like that, like,
I'm thinking about Rochester Castle, which unless they've changed it
in the last twenty five years. When I saw it first,
there was no floors, like a hundred foot drop, which
was awesome.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
I had it. I love that too, And so we
have a piece about what they did there and information
on how to visit. Plus we have a piece on
Francesco Guiccardini. He's a very famous Florentine statesman and ambassador
from the early sixteenth century. He wrote up quite a
lot of stuff, so he's one of those like Renaissance writers.
(46:15):
But I found out he did these political maxims advice
that he kind of gave to himself, and I think
it was for his family, but eventually it all got
published and I found it reading through it. It's a
nice bit of political advice, even for today. He's a
very shrewd guy, so you kind of think of princes,
you can think of presidents, all right. My favorite one
(46:38):
is this one. If you were involved in important affairs
or seeking power, you must always hide your failures and
exaggerate your successes. It is a form of swim link
and very much against my nature. But since your fate
more often depends upon the opinion of others rather than
on the facts. It is a good idea to create
the impression that things are going well. The opposite reputation
(47:02):
will be harmful to you.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So I love how he's like, this is against my nature,
but I'm totally doing it all the time.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Anyway.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
I can imagine that politicians will be astounded at this
because none of them would think like that. But maybe
they should.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
M Yeah, this is when we say la plu sa change. Right,
but you have one more thing that is a lot
more positive to tell us about, right.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Indeed. Indeed, we're doing a back to school sale on
our think if It courses. It's been a good summer
of getting some courses out, but we're really going hard
in September with the six courses between now and October first,
including yours.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, I'm starting September twelfth, and I'm going to go
for five weeks and tell people about the fourteenth century,
which is the best century of course.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
Indeed. Indeed, so you can take Danielle's course or one
of the others, or in factories take them all.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yeah, and what's the sale.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Is fifteen percent off any of these courses. Anyone's we're offering,
and all you have to use is coupon code. Back
to School all one word when you go on Medieval
Studies dot thinkific dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
All right, back to school, looking forward to it, and
I'm looking forward to opening the digital classroom.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It's gonna be awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Well, thank you Peter for stopping by and telling us
what's on the website.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
We're coming to the end of my mini series, This
Is History presents The Glass King, and this week it's
all about how a Queen's got to do What a
queen's got to do? Well, that and some pretty history
altering violence. So business as usual in early fifteenth century Paris.
Head over to This Is History to get yourself caught
up before next week's finale, when we find out what
(48:45):
happens to King Charles and the Kingdom of France. Thank you,
as always to all of you for supporting my work,
either on this podcast or The Glass King by listening, sharing,
letting me ads play through, or becoming on patreon dot com.
Patrons have a special place in my heart because without you,
(49:05):
none of this would be possible. To find out more
or to become a patron, please visit Patreon dot com
slash Medievalists for everything from royal favors to medieval flavors.
Follow medievalist dot net on Instagram at medievalist net or
blue sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle Sabowski
across social media at five min Medievalist or five minute Medievalist,
(49:30):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is by Christian Overton. Thanks for listening. Have
yourself an amazing day.
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