July 3, 2025 • 56 mins
For three medieval Iberian queens, grief - and the way they expressed it - had immense and far-reaching consequences. This week, Danièle speaks with Núria Silleras-Fernández about what grief and widowhood were "supposed" to look like, how grief and madness were thought to be intertwined with love, and how the grieving women in the famous Isabella the Catholic’s family shaped the history of Spain and Portugal.
Listen to this podcast ad-free on Patreon - go to https://www.patreon.com/medievalists
Listen to this podcast ad-free on Patreon - go to https://www.patreon.com/medievalists
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and ninety
seven of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Sabalski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. Grief is something that affects
all of us differently, but when you're in the public eye,
everyone has an opinion about how you should be expressing it,
and this is as true of the Middle Ages as
(00:36):
it is today. For three medieval queens, in particular, expressing
grief the right way had immense and far reaching consequences.
This week, I spoke with doctor Nuria Sierras Fernandez about
grief and the quote unquote madness of three Iberian queens.
Nuria is professor of Spanish and Portuguese at the University
(00:56):
of Colorado, Boulder and the author of several works on
Iberian women, including Power, piety and Patronage in Late Medieval Queenship,
Maria de Luna and Chariots of Ladies, Francesque Ischimenez, and
the court culture of Medieval and early modern Iberia. Her
new book is the Politics of Emotion, Love, Grief and
(01:17):
Madness in Medieval and Early Modern Iberia. Our conversation on
what grief and widowhood were supposed to look like for queens,
how grief and madness were thought to be intertwined with
true love, and how the grief of the women in
the famous Isabella the Catholics family shape the history of
Spain is coming up right after this. Well, thank you
(01:41):
Nuria for joining me to talk about these queens of Iberia.
It's so nice to meet. We finally made it happen
getting together to talk about these queens. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Thank you very much for having met in your podcast.
I am very happy to be with all of you today.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay, started at the beginning and ask you what made
you decide that this was a topic that needs to
be talked about, queens and their grief. What made you
decide that we need to study this closely?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, several things. As you know, it takes a long
time to write a book. You had to research a
book and then you had to write a book. So
it took me a long time. But when I was
like researching it and writing it, it was during the pandemic,
and during the pandemic, the covined nineteen pandemic, grief became
very important because we were all driving, we were breaving
(02:32):
because we lost people we loved. We were dreaming because
we lost our life as we knew it. We were
like love it tried that house our houses, and we
were all like sad and angry, and in a way
we were grieving. And then it was very difficult for
many people, particularly originally from Spain, even though I am
(02:56):
a professor at the University of Colorado, Boulder and Pain.
During the pandemic, particularly at the beginning, it was very
difficult for people to do anything. Basically, it was not
like in the US that we have more freedom to live,
have houses. And for example, I have friends who lost
(03:16):
their parents and they couldn't even go to their burial.
It was just illegal. And talking to my friends that
were telling me, this is just so hard and so
sad because I couldn't say goodbye, we couldn't gathered, I
couldn't see my cibilians. And then, you know, I have
already been thinking about grieving for a long time, and
I was thinking this is interesting because it's true. You know,
(03:38):
ritual helps us to feel better because we grieve in community,
and all the practices that we do help us to
move forward, and it's very difficult to move forward if
you cannot visualize death in a way, and if you
had to be just inside your house, your apartment. So
(03:59):
I was thinking about all of this when I was
writing my book. I am a medievalist, and I was thinking, oh,
I know three Iberian queens that had problems with grief,
and they have never ever been studied together, and they
have never been studied from the point of view of grief.
(04:21):
You know, one of the math is very famous because
she was known as the mad because it was mad.
And then some people knew that she had a grandmother
who also suffered from grief. But when I discovered that
one I had also an eldest sister who also suffered
from grief, I was thinking, I see a pattern here.
(04:43):
You know, people were struggling with grief and with mental
health issues, and it's very important that we discuss these
things so people know how in the past they also
had problems with grief and emotions and suffering.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yes, it was a sense of what things were like
in Iberia around grief in general at this time before
we get into the queens themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Okay, so in the Middle Ages and the early Modern period,
which it changes in grief. So during the whole Middle Ages.
The Church tried to control grief because in a way,
Christianity thought that those who were grieving a lot were
not obeying God's will. They were not following God's will
(05:29):
because after all, its song and died was because God
decided to take them with him or to send them
to hell, whatever. So in a way it was like
it was all about God. So for a few centuries,
the Church try to legislate how to grief, what was appropriate,
(05:50):
what was inappropriate. For example, they were trying to move
beyond the model from antiquity where people were like pulling
their you're under hair and they were scratching their faces,
all that performance of grief that was very physical. They
tried to control that. And the same thing happened in
(06:12):
the crown. The crown also tried to control grief. Following
the church ideals, you had to control your emotions while grieving.
So there were things that you could do and things
that you were not expected to do, to the point
that in theory a priest was not supposed to enter
a house if he was like listening or seeing people
(06:35):
behaving in ways that were fully inappropriate. That said, it
took the Church many centuries to control that because when
you know, when people were like suffering really intensely, it
was very difficult for them to control the old ways.
But in the sixteenth century, in the sixteenth century, you
(06:56):
see that little, very little control and restraint, see it.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yes, it's interesting when you think about it that way,
where we think of grief as being something healthy, something
that you should be going through, and I think nowadays
people are starting to say, let those feelings out rather
than restraining them. And so it's interesting to have a
look back at this moment in history where people are
trying to hold it in because I think that this
(07:21):
is super important to what you're talking about in the book. Okay,
so we need to get into the Queen's So give
us a sense of what time period we are in,
first of all, and what things look like in the
Iberian Peninsula because some of this relates to politics. So
tell us a little bit about what things are like
then and there.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Well, it just because I understudying grief in connection with love,
because the idea was that those who love are of
those who grief, because unless you really love someone, you
are not going to be suffering as much. So and
this is part of the problem. So I understudy in
three queens things that are all related to the most
(08:03):
important queen of the Iberian Peninsula, Isabel the Catholic. Isabelle
the first of Castile married Fernando the Second of Aragon,
and they got known as the Catholic Monarchs. These two
are very important in world history because they were the
ones who unified dynastically Spain. They were the ones who
(08:27):
conquered the last Muslim kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula and Granada.
They were the ones who created the Inquisition. They were
the ones who spelled the Jews from the kingdoms. And
they were also the ones who sent Columbus to India,
(08:47):
but as you well know, he ended up in the Caribbean.
So they started in a way, you know, the colonization,
the conquest and exploitation of the Americans. So they are
very important in Spanish history. So Isabel the Catholic and
Fernando Isabel had a mother. Her mother was Isabelle of Portugal.
(09:08):
Her mother is one of those people who suffered from
intense grief. Isabel the Catholic and Fernando had four daughters
and a son. So I am studying two of their daughters,
their eldest daughter also named Isabelle, and then also Juanna.
One of the problems is that all of them were
named Isabelle, because the monarchy is all about continuity, so
(09:32):
you had to show, you know, that continuity and a
way of showing it is true names. So in fourteen
ninety two was when they spelled the Jews and they
say Columbus to the Americas. In fourteen eighty was when
the Inquisition started. So with isabel the Catholics, mom we
(09:53):
are in the mid fifteenth century, and with Juana, who
was one of the daughters of Isabelle the Catholic, we
are already in the sixteenth century because she died an
old lady, So yeah, fitting in sixteenth century mostly.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Right, Okay, So we're going to start with the grandmother
of the story, Isabella of Portugal. So at this moment
we're still looking to unite different Iberian kingdoms, but it
hasn't happened yet. So Isabella of Portugal, she has a
marriage that seems fairly successful, but then her husband dies
(10:28):
and she maybe we should mention before we get to
her husband dying, that she's had some issues with depression
what we would call depression before, so give us a
sense of what's going on with Isabella Portugal.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Well, one of the problems that we have when studying
the past is the vocabulary. Yeah, because of course they
didn't they didn't have the word depression. They didn't have
the war was far from depression. So I had to
be careful in the book because even though I say
and I explained that we have a different terminology, and
I try to use the terminology from the period, it's
(11:03):
also important that we acknowledge that if a historical source
says that a lady had a baby and all the
sudden she was super sad. You didn't want to live
her room, everything was like dark, and you know, this
is probably what we nowadays called depression. She had the
baby and she felt terrible, and they call it melancholy,
(11:27):
but you know, they were aware of the fact that
she was sad for no reason. And this happened to
Isabelle and nowadays apparently because as you well know, psychiatry
and psychology keeps evolving and changing. But when I was
doing research, I was trying to also understand how we
(11:47):
see these problems nowadays, because sometimes it's helpful and in
a way when you study the past, you learned about
the present because all of a sudden you realize, so
how do we understand this problems nowadays? And nowadays we
are more understanding with mental health and we want to
help people, which is good. But I was reading that
(12:10):
women who suffer from postpartum depression have more chances of
developing depression later on in life. It doesn't have to happen,
but it might happen to you, and I think that
this is what happened to Isabelle's mother, Isabella of Portugal,
when her husband died again. She was really sad, very well.
(12:31):
We drawn she then want to participate in corereativities and
she moved to another balance and at the beginning, I
have the feeling that she was happy to be away
from the royal court because she was more independent. Her
mother moved from Portugal to be with her, which shows
me that she was not doing well, because it's very
(12:53):
weird that your mom in the Middle Ages in the
fifteenth century moves in with you.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes, yeah, her mom came to support her, which is
very sweet to see this happening because it was so
unusual for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And she was a widow so I
guess that she thought, my daughter needs me. She's a
widow now she has like two small children. I had
to go there. So it was very sweet and they
were together until the mom died. So I think that
that's actually beautiful. So Isabelda Catholic. As a child, she
was living with her mom, with her grandmother and with
(13:28):
her brothers.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, well, poor Isabella Portugal. She had a hard time
in her widowhood, not just because she was probably prone
to depression anyway, which I think you're probably right about,
although it's so hard to tell from the source. Yes,
but her husband before he died, made sure she was
going to be lonely, right.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, this was very typical in the fifteenth century, but
later on, no, it totally changed, which is very interesting
to discover this change. In the Middle Ages, kings wanted
their wife not to have any other partners after they
were gone. So the idea was, I am going to
give you enough money and of power. You are going
to be in charge of for children, but you are
(14:11):
never going to have another partner. You are going to
be changed and you are going to be my widow.
So and this was the idea. This change with the
Hubsmore family because they had such a huge empire that
you know, they needed their women to remarry and you
see it all the time. It was a big change.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So yeah, yes, well, I mean she would have lost
her power, which I don't think she was super interested in,
like you were saying. I think she was happy to
be away from court. But it also stapilated. She would
lose her children and that was probably going to be
a bigger incentive for staying chaste as a widow.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah. Yeah, it was very common in general for women.
The idea was, you know you are going to remarry,
you are going to lose the children. Yeah, very common. Yeah,
so that's why it was easier not to do with you,
particularly class women here.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So how do people regard this from the outside, where
they like, this is totally appropriate for her to be
sad for a really long time. How do people view
is a Belletle of Portugal and her grief?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
The problem is that we have sources, but not too many,
and for it we have like chronicles, and all the
chronicles mentioned that when her husband died, she was very
sad and she didn't recover. It's true that that is
like a chronicle that insinoids. At at some point she
was visited by the king and his men and one
of them tried to rape her, or you know, he
(15:41):
attended against her chastity, which is what it means that
she was sexually assaulted somehow because they were less descriptive
than nowadays, and that that made her even worse. So
we only have those sources. But what we know for
sure is that she was always away, And what we
know for sure is that her daughter, isabel the cathl
(16:04):
like when she became the princess and then the queen,
she busied her mother, but her mother never left that palace.
So I think that she was not doing well, honestly,
because otherwise, you know, she would have been incorporated into
the family more and this she was not.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
This is basically all we really know of her story,
that she was secluded, that she stayed secluded. But it's
important to have her as an anchor point because the
other two queens that you're talking about are her granddaughters.
So Isabella Portugal had Isabelle the Catholic as her daughter,
intensely powerful, famous woman, and then Isabel the Catholic had
(16:45):
a few daughters. As you're saying, one of them, for
people who need to anchor themselves in history might know
that Tutor is better. One of her daughters is Catherine Amaricon,
So we're gonna be talking about Catherine's sisters now. So yes,
having this grandmother who is famously grieving for a long
time is in the background of the stories that we're
about to tell. So it's important for you to have
(17:06):
brothers into the book to anchor us in there. But
now let's turn to the daughters of Isabel the Catholic.
One of them, of course has to be another Isabel,
So tell us what happens with Isabel of Aragon.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So it's Abella of Aragon was the eldest daughter of
isabela Catholic and Fernando. Okay, so what is important also
what the grand mother is that it uncursed the book,
as you were saying, but it was in the memory
of the contemporaries. So everybody that saw how her granddaughters
(17:42):
were behaving also thought about the grandmother who died a
very old lady, so she was alive for a long time.
So she had two daughters. Isabella of Aragon was married
into Portugal. She moved to Portugal at the beginning when
she was like a child, because it was like a
hostage of peace. So she was living in Portugal for
(18:04):
a while, and then she went back to Castilla with
her parents, and then eventually she was married to a Fonso,
Prince of Portugal, the heir of the crown of Portugal.
So she had a very important role because Castile and
Portugal have been a war and in a way, this
marriage was like the solution to the political problems. So
(18:27):
even though it was an arranged marriage, because if you
were a princess or a prince in that time period,
you didn't really choose your partner. I mean, your parents
married you because they had political needs. So even though
the marriage was like a range, apparently they were very
happy together. I mean, this can't happen. I mean you can't,
(18:49):
I guess, fall in love with your husband afterwards necessatinly before.
So it's a very sad story because you know they
were mad for eight months and the prince fell from
his horse and died. How many people fell from horses
in the Middle Ages. I had to say, the poor
(19:10):
boy died he was only sixteen, while she was like
five years old. And then the Portuguese had a way
of grieving. That was very intense. Not only Isabell of
Aragon the wife who was like devastated, the parents of
the prince, the court, the kingdom. I had to say
(19:33):
that the situation was particularly bad because Prince Alfonso Portugal
was an only child, so it was like a personal
tragedy but also a political tragedy because they needed to
find a successor to ensure the peaceful transition of power.
So that's why everybody was like very excited and very sad.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well, and as you're saying that he is, Tridio fell apart,
so not only a disaster for Portugal, but a disaster
for the Iberian peninsula. That everyone was thinking, well, we've
united Castile in Arragona, we're gonna unite with Portugal at
least in terms of peace. And now this has fallen
apart as well. So what does it say in the
records that is about dead and her grief when her
(20:20):
really young husband died.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, all the sources mentioned that she ate very lited,
She got very very skinny. It was like a sort
of like Holli and Aleksa in a way. I mean,
she didn't like to eat much. So many sources mentioned
that she was too skinny. Then she was wearing very
(20:43):
simple clothing, not the type of clothes that a royal
woman should be wearing. Then she got her head. She
had very beautiful and blonde hair like her mom. She
got her hair. She didn't want to look or a
beautiful or appeeling. She was a sort of like martyr
(21:03):
of love in a way. She was performing grief in
a very public way. She was like crying a lot.
She was sleeping on the floor, but endly she didn't
even want to sleep like on a bit. So she
was very very sad, very sad. And she was not
the only one, but yeah, she was very sad.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Do you feel, looking at what you've studied in terms
of grief in the Iberian Peninsula, that she followed the
Portuguese and her method of grieving or did she follow
sort of her own Castilian way of doing it or arogonies.
I guess she could have been influenced by both of
her parents. What sort of pattern of grief was she following?
And do you think this was intentional or just sort
(21:44):
of coming from within her?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think that she was following the Portuguese way, because
you know, the Portuguese court was more willing to express
grief in a very physical way. So I think that
she was performing like Portuguese princess and that's it. I
think that her grief was very genuine, and such sadness
(22:11):
was very genuine.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, well, it's important because we were trying to establish
the patterns, right, So I wanted to ask that question
to see if she was expressing this in a way
that you feel was coming from her, or if this
was a role that she was playing. And it's funny
because it looks like the daughters of Isabel the Catholic
don't care as much about politics as she does. So
(22:33):
this is a question I wanted to ask about. Because
Isabel Portugal no longer needs to perform as a Princess
of Portugal. Necessarily she could just go home, So I
wanted to ask about what you thought about her own grief.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, yeah, I honestly think that she let herself go
more because she was in Portugal, because for example, her
grandmother or her sister Juana didn't behave like she did.
They were wearing more discrets in their sophery, they weren't
as public. But even when she went back to Castill,
(23:09):
we have sources mentioned in that she ate very little,
that she was very sleeve. So yeah, I think that
she was not doing great even when she moved back
home when it was obvious that she was not pregnant.
She was sent back home because her parents needed Isabel.
The problem was that Isabel was the second in the
(23:32):
line of succession of both crowns. Because Isabel had a
brother named jan a boy and he was inheriting everything,
but she was the second in the line of succession,
so they wanted her back because her parents understood that
she needed to recover, compose herself, and marry again.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
M hm. So she goes back to Castile and that's
what she does. She's given some time to compose herself
and then eventually her parents are like, well, you need
to marry somebody else. But she really drags her.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Feet, right, Yeah, she doesn't want to get married again.
She doesn't want to and for a while, I honestly
think that her parents were trying to support her because
they were seeing that she was not doing well. It's
very difficult to find the sources, so I am pissing
like letters and small things here and there, and I
(24:26):
have found like a small mentions to Isabel and her
unwillingness to get married in like letters and chronicles. So no,
she didn't want to, but her parents asked her to
do so. And what is more important, the new heir
of the crown of Portugal was a fonce uncle and cousin, Manuel,
(24:47):
Manuel the First of Portugal and Manuel the First of Portugal,
who knew Isabel well because he was a Portuguese and
he was living in the Portuguese court, wanted to marry
Isabel Why because she was the second in the line
of succession to the crowns of Aragon and Castille. And
when the catholicings offered him another daughter, Maria, she said, no, no, no, no,
(25:12):
I want to marry Isabelle. And probably, you know, I
don't know, maybe he liked her. I mean, I don't know,
but I think that the fact that she was inheriting
potentially was what made her so appealing to Manuel.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, it makes all the sense in the world when
we think about the fact that the peace treaty disappeared
with the death of Alphonso, so it needs to be repaired.
It makes the most sense in terms of politics. Everybody
is thinking in terms of what's best for their kingdoms
rather than necessarily what's best for this woman, and so
(25:47):
she drives a hard bargain, right. And this is really
interesting because this has huge repercussions politically and in terms
of the actual human lives involved. So Isabelle says, okay
of merry Manuel on one condition.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And the condition is I want him to spell all
the heretics from Portugal, all the heretics. And this is
a very contentious point because you know, sometimes a scholars
who study minorities, they say, no, the Catholic kings wanted
to spell the Jews from Portugal. But it's way more
(26:24):
complicated than that, and at least the Catholic kings are
very clear about that we are not asking for this.
It is our daughter. And I think that the scholars
have to give more credit to Isabelle because she was
a woman with a lot of agency. She was a princess.
She was you know, she was like in front of
(26:45):
of that stills. It was a princess of Portugal and
she was about to marry the king of Portugal, so
you know, she had a lot of power at that point.
And she was the daughter of Isabelle the Catholic. She
knew what a woman could do because her mother was
bruling Castill, so I mean she knew that women were
(27:08):
able to be politically efficient and active and powerful, So
this is very sad. She imagined herself as a sort
of Christian princess, and she thought that God had punished
her before taking a Fonso away because the kingdom of
(27:28):
herself they were not pious enough. So yeah, it's very sad.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, well it makes sense, Like I'm disagreeing with all
the points that you've made in the book and are,
but it makes somebody who is being raised by two
of the most religious monarchs in all of history and
feeling like she's been punished by having her young husband
taken from her, like it totally makes sense that this
(27:54):
would be something that she would be asking for from
her new husband to maybe please God and maybe just
sort of slow the process down, because expelling all the
hairtaics from a kingdom take some work, takes some time.
So maybe she just really didn't want to get married
and thought this would be a good way of delaying it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and the Catholic monas even wrote to and were
telling him you can send the Muslims back to Castill.
Another going we don't mind the Muslims. So yeah, it's
very you know, like it's very strange, But I honestly
think that it's Avail's conception of Christianity became very radical
(28:34):
at that point.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So what was the fallout in Portugal? Who ended up
being expelled in the end.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So this is a very difficult question to answer, because
you know, the Jews were spelled well those who didn't combat.
Convers was an option, okay, convers was an option. But
in theory, the Jews were sent away, many of them
were forced to leave, and then by heretics. She also
(29:04):
meant some judaiss so all Jews who had converted to
Pedestianity but were practicing Judaism in secret and were prosecuted
by the Inquisition in Castilla and Aragon had moved to
Portugal to avoid more pain. So those ones were also
(29:24):
supposed to leave, and then in theory also the Muslims.
But it is not clear how many lived and what happened.
But you know, she was very inclusive in her exclusion.
She wanted everybody out.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, so a very destructive condition, but it's met. It's
met by her future husband, and she goes to Portugal
and she marries. But even after all this destruction, it
does not last, right.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
But it almost worked, it almost ways because there as
Manuel was anticipating, because Manuel spent some time as a
child in Castille and he knew you know, Isabelle, Fernando
and all the children.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
One was kind of like a week prince. You know,
his health was not very good. So eventually the poor
boy died when he was like nineteen, and then Isabelle
actually heerited, so you know, in a way he was right.
His wife inherited Aragon and Castille and they had a child.
(30:36):
But isabel who was sick. All the sources say he
was very sleim. You know, she was not ready to
wear a child, so she died as a consequence of
giving birth to a prince Miguel, and Miguel later on
died when he was three years old. But they had
to say that Manuel at that point was really tired
(30:57):
of Isabelle. I resumed because as soon as she died,
he left the baby with Isabelle and Fernando and he
went back to Portugal. He needed to deal with Portugal.
He had been in Castile for a long time, so
he just left.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, sort of surprising after all the efforts. But I
mean there are people's personalities involut here as well, right,
They're not just little dolls that will marry end up
happily ever after. And I mean this is certainly the
case with Isabelle's sister Juana, who we need to talk
about because.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Wow, what a story. I mean, not every medieval woman's
life is easy, but Juana seems especially difficult. So how
was about Juana?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Buana was not supposed to inherit. The Crown of Castile
needed the ground of Aragon because she was like the
third one in the line of succession, so she was
not supposed to inherit. But her brother Juan died, her
sister isabel died, her nephew Miguel died, and finally she inherited. Okay,
(32:07):
So because she was not supposed to inherit, her parents
sent her far away. She married Philip, the Archduke Art
Duke Philip. So she was in Flanders, she was in
the Low countries, she was importantly, she was in all
those lands. She was like in Europe. She was not
supposed to be heard it. She was very far away.
(32:29):
So her brother Juan had married Margaret of Austria, who
was Philip's sister. It was like a doubel marriage, a
Doubel alliance, and she was not supposed to inherit, but
she did. These things happened in Lious.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
So she's married far away and she brings people with her.
But her husband, Philip has no tolerance for her heritage, right,
He's just he's just absolutely cruel. And it starts really
early in their doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, And I like the objective that you are. You see,
like Druel, I really think that he was cruel, honestly,
and I think that he was an abusive husband. And
of course this is like a modern terminology because in
the Middle Ages, you know, in the late fifteenth century
and in the early sixteenth century, like husbands were able
to get away with a lot. But even in that period,
(33:25):
Juana's parents and his Spanish ambassadors were pretty scandalized about
the relationship that Juana had with her husband. He in theory,
had the right to impose himself on Juana, but to
a point, particularly after Juana became the heiress of the crowns,
(33:48):
because her mother is al Catholic, she will become queen
because Fernando in Castille was only king consort, and Philip
in Castile and in Aragon he will have been in concert,
not keen.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yes, well that's the thing. She was still a princess.
She should have been treated much better than she was.
And so when we're talking about like this is beyond
even medieval norms. We're talking about Juana being separated from
her friends and attendants. We're talking about her being locked
in a room until she can behave herself in a
way that he thinks is okay. Meanwhile, what he thinks
(34:26):
is okay is parading his mistresses in front of her,
disrespecting her. So, poor Juana has had a terrible marriage.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yes, yes, with drawing the marital death, even saying I
am not going to busit you and sleep with you
unless you start of behaving in a way that they
considered appropriate. She was cruel. He was a cruel hus one, honestly, Yeah,
it was.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yes, yes, absolutely. The two of them end up in
Castile for a while, and poor Juana when her husband
goes back, she still wants to go with him. She's
fighting with her mother about it, just just having the
worst time.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, Well, the problem is that you know when she
became the edge of the kingdoms. When her sister Isabel died,
her parents called her in because the idea was, Okay,
now you need to be sworn by the courts and
your husband two and you had to become a queen
in training. And I had to say that all the
(35:26):
things that we were discussing, all the very very bad
episodes happened after that trip, that trip to be shorn
as it happened a bit later. So when they came
the first time in fifteen oh two, fifteen or three,
they were bad, but not that bad. And the problem
was that Isabel wanted Wanta was staying still because now
(35:49):
she had responsibilities beyond being a mother and a wife.
And surprisingly she didn't want to stay. As you were saying,
she was fighting with her mother alone at that point.
Her dad was her wage. She was in Aragon because
there was a war with France and he was in Aragon.
So Isabel was already sick and Juana, who was with
(36:13):
her her husband left for Flanders. And yeah, they were
fighting all the time, and this completely undermine her reputation
in the Stine. This was her problem, you know, because
Isabel couldn't understand why she wanted to leave. Fernando couldn't
understand why she had to leave. The other courts couldn't
understand it. Then for them it didn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yes, why wouldn't want to rule Castile? Castile is great,
like you should stay and rule it at least after
her mother passes, which hasn't happened yet. But this is
actually a crucial moment, because I think it's this moment
where Isabel starts sitting, I don't know if I can
leave Castile in the hands of this daughter of mine.
So she writes in her will. I think she wrote
(36:59):
her pretty early where she was saying that Fernando will
take over Castile if Fuana is unable or unwilling to
do this right, and this becomes a real difficulty for
Juanna from then on. Have I got that right?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yes, totally? And she repeats that twice in her testament.
And Nisabeth de Catholic was like a very powerful woman.
She understood politics and powers, and she wrote that twice, okay,
to clarify, And she was also really worried because she
didn't want Philip to take over Castile. That's what she
(37:36):
was saying. If my daughter is unable or unwilling, then
my husband Fernando only then, But because if she is
willing and she's able, she should do it. Yeah, So
she gives her like an option. But what she wants
to do she wants to bar Philip from ruling. Not Juanna,
(37:58):
not her husband, but Philip. She doesn't like Philip.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, and so she tries her best. And I really
admire that, I really admire the foresight like this woman.
For all that I don't agree with her politics, she
was formidable for sure. So eventually Isabelle does die when
it does inherit, and so her husband Philip and her
dad Fernando are now in a struggle for power.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
What happens, Yes, in a struggle for powered And I
think that both of them sort of agree that Guana
was not a good candidate, unfortunately, so for different reasons.
Fernando because he was like just to ruling Castile along
with Aragon and he wanted to keep going. And Philip
(38:44):
because he never liked his wife. Yeah, and it was
a good moment for him to finally take COVID and surprisingly,
and this is very interesting, the Castilian nobility didn't like Fernando,
you know, because now we think about Castilla an a
goona's being in Spain, but not in the Middle Ages.
(39:04):
They were two different kingdoms. He was like a foreigner,
even though he was you know, he's an Fernando with
like even those you say we're from the same family.
He was a foreigner, interestingly enough, and he was a
foreigner with a lot of power. And they thought that
young Philip would be much easier to manipulate, and they
(39:27):
were supporting him, and he was like closer to the
crown because he was like the father of the new
air Charles the Feast, and it's true, he was a
fad of all the children theana and he had.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
It's terrible because you really don't want Philip to win anything,
and here he is, and he's in control, or at
least almost in control. He's fighting for control over another
kingdom that belongs to his wife. He's been absolutely terrible
to you. This is not a moment in that story
that I enjoy. Oh oh, it's no, no, no. So
(40:03):
Philip doesn't last that long. Fortunately for me, because I'm
not his biggest friend, he doesn't last that long. But
even then, Juanna doesn't get her rights as clean even
though she's kicking and screaming for them at some points, right.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah, but really, yes, you know, she was like
really disappointed about the situation. But you know, Philip was
really good at keeping her like isolated with the cures
that she was pregnant and that she was not feeling well.
So she was kept like a way. And even Fernando
wasn't able to see his daughter, to visit his daughter
(40:39):
because she was like in costanly you know. So in
the end, and when he saw that he didn't have
the support of the nobility, he signed an agreement with
Philip and he left, He left for his kin dumbs.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah, it's just I hope that people read your book
so that they could get all the details out. Yeah,
so I get to but I just want to called
one of the math and what does this have to
do with grief? Is she really mourning this husband, he's
been terrible to her? Why does she get this reputation?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Okay, so she gets a reputation later on. And there
are like many paintings from the nineteenth century, There are poems,
there are plays, There are like movies that transformed Juanna
into again a market of love and grief, so but
her reputation, I mean she she was also part of
(41:31):
the problem. So okay. Finally, what happened was that her
husband Philip, when he achieved everything that he wanted, Guana
was like set aside. He wanted to be clerk kill incompetent.
But the courts didn't agree. The court thought that Guana
was fine. She was not mad. Basically, maybe she had
(41:53):
some issues, but she was not mad. Anyway, She's acting
as king of Castile. But very soon, a few months later,
he died. He was keen for like seven or eight months.
I mean, it was a very very brief frame. He
died all of a sudden. Apparently he was playing ball
(42:13):
with a few friends. He had eaten a big meal
and then he drank a glass of water, and then
he started having a high fever and he was sick
for a few days, and then he died. Some sourcers
claim that he was poisoned, but I don't know. He
(42:35):
was seriously disliked by some people, but we are never
going to know. But it is true that some sources
claim that he had been poisoned because he was like
doing great. He was playing ball, you know, and all
of a sudden. He was very ill. Okay, So this
should have been Juana's moment because her father, Juana's father, Fernando,
(42:58):
was in Naples. That of Naples was also part of
the Crown of Aragon, so he was in Naples. Her son,
the future Charles the Emperor, was a child, you know,
he was a very young child, completely unable to rule.
Her father in law, Maximilian, was also ruling the empire.
(43:18):
I mean he was busy, Okay. So it was truly
her moment to rally and then start ruling because it
was finally, in a way, it was like free from
all those male supervisors who were constantly controlling her actions.
And to some extent she did that. She started trying
(43:41):
to control the situation. For example, she tried to get
rid of Philips Fleming's advisors who were occupying very important positions.
She tried to settle a few things. It's true, but
she was also very melancholic. She was very sad, She
was very detached. All the advices were saying, we need
(44:05):
to keep doing things, and she was very withdrawn. I
honestly think that she was suffering from what nowadays we
call complicated grief and complicated grief is something that is
similar to depression, and I honestly think that she was
(44:27):
suffering from that, because all the sources mentioned that she
was intelligent, her mind was working, but she was completely withdrawn.
She was not interested in doing a lot of things.
She was as why did you write to your father
to tell him this? And that, well, I do it? Yeah,
I don't know. She was not active enough, okay, and
(44:51):
then she did something that was seen as highly inappropriate.
The inappropriate thing that she did was that instead of
doing what she was expected to do, which is to say,
to start ruling, to inpoce herself. Her husband Philip had
been provisionally buried at a monastery, but in his will
(45:13):
he said that he wanted to be buried in Grandava
like Isabel the Catholic, and also Fernando was supposed to
be buried in Granalda, and he said that in his
last will and testament. And then Juana thought, okay, I
am going to take him to Branalda. And you may think, well,
(45:33):
this is not that crazy. Well it is a bit
crazy because it was as inappropriate because it was already buried,
and the idea is okay, maybe in a couple of years,
we take his remains to Granada, but not one personally.
A few friars, you know, you make like a procession,
and that's it. But Juana, on top of everything, was pregnant,
(45:55):
and pregnant ladies, particularly the pregnant ladies. The Queen of
Castile is not supposed to be traveling because it's not
it was not seen as good for a woman. It
was not very comfortable at the beginning of the sixteenth
century to travel while pregnant. It's not even comfortable nowdays.
Com but every time that I was flying in while
(46:18):
pregnant is uncomfortable. So she was pregnant, she wanted to
do it, and she did that. And because she was pregnant,
and because she took a lot of people with her,
she was going really, really slowly, and by the time
she was stopped, she had been carrying the body for
two years and four months and she never made it
(46:40):
to Granada.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
It's yeah, that's unbelievable, unbelievable. And one of the things
that you mentioned in the book as well is that
they started the journey before, as you were judging at now,
like decomposition had finished. So they're taking a corpse that
is actively decomposing, which is just not something they were
doing at that time. There's a reason why they waited,
(47:02):
and so she's exposing herself to all of this stuff
that at the time people were like, it's the bad Miasthmas.
They're going to have a problem with you, your health,
you're pregnancy. So this does seem extreme. And more than
two years following the casket and never getting there, that
does sound extreme.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yes, yeah, because apparentdly she was getting more and more sick. Well,
she eventually had her baby, of course, but apparently she
was getting secret. She wasn't changing her clothes, she wasn't
cleaning up, she wasn't eating well. She was bad. Towards
the end, she was bad. So her father came back
(47:42):
to Castile, and when they met at the beginning, he thought, okay,
if she wants to do that. She didn't want to
upset her because she wasn't queen of Castile, so he thought, okay,
just keep going and I take care of Castilla. I
want to take care of the kingdoms. And eventually the
people from Perentourage contacted him and they told him this
(48:05):
cannot keep going. She's very sick and at that point
is when Fernando decided to send her to the palace
for the seas, and that was it for Juana Juana,
like her grandmother in a palace there.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah, yes, but even more than her grandmother. She was
such a prisoner in some ways that they were saying
that she couldn't be trusted with anything. They didn't even
tell her when her father died. They just isolated her
and put her aside, which is again so shocking when
she is the Queen of Castile. Her story is so.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Unbelievable because she was not crazy. M This is the point.
I honestly think that she was sofering from a still
in depression, but she was not crazy. That's why eventually
she was feeling bettered and she was saying, okay, so
now what Yeah, and that's why she needed to be
(49:05):
just there. Because of that why her husband and later
her son couldn't rule, so they thought, you know, we're
going to leave her there, and eventually she was a prisoner,
so that I am sure that impacted her mental health.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yes, I mean, how many times in history have inconvenient
women been called crazy and just locked away And this
is just a huge example of this. When she should
have had all the power in the world to be released,
and she just never did, not in her marriage.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
And not later.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Oh there's so much more to say about Juana and
about these other Isabells, but we do need to wrap
up because this is you know, we are talking for
longer than usual.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
But I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
This is such a great discussion.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
So I have to.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Ask you, in looking at grief and these women, is
there one thing that you want to leave people with
after having studied them in women in grieving, is there
one thing that you want to say to people who
are listening about studying these women at this time and
understanding them.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Okay, And I want people to remember that emotions, even
though we tend to think that the emotions are universal
and many emotions are universal, they are so profoundly cultural,
and they are also gendered. And women were seen as
extra emotional and that was a problem for them, particularly
(50:29):
they were women who were very powerful, because even Isabel
the Catholic have problems with griefs. Towards the end of
her life, she was very sad because her son died,
her daughter died, their grandson died, and Juana, she was
very worried about Guana. So Isabelle had been working on
(50:50):
that huge project still and all the Suddens, she was like,
worried about the future. So I want people to remember
that women have been considered always extreme emotional, and that
has been a strategy to deprive them from their power
and to consider them less. So I want them to
(51:12):
remember that that emotions and cultural, that they change over time,
and that women many times were considered emotional for all
the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I think that is a great place to end that
because I think it is so true, and I'm hoping
that people will use your book as an example of
how to pull these things apart, even when the sources
are scarce. So thank you so much, Nuria. I really
enjoyed your book, and thank you for coming on and
talking to us about this.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Thank you, Danielle, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
To find out more about Nuria's work, you can visit
her faculty page at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Her
new book is The Politics of Emotion, Love, Grief, and
Madness in Medieval and Early Modern Hyperia. Before we go,
here's Peter from medievalis dot Net to tell us what's
on the website.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
What's going on, Peter, Hey, Well, later this week I
am flying across the Atlantic and heading to the International
Medieval Congress in Leeds, England.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
It's going to be such a great time, so envious.
You're going to see all of our favorite people.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Give me awesome, and it's like a pilgrimage right for
all medievalsts. I don't have too much to do while
I'm there, but I am hosting a special talk with
Steve Temple, a friend Ofmdievalist dot.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yes and friend of the podcast. That's going to be awesome.
What's Steve going to be talking about with you?
Speaker 3 (52:32):
Yeah, he's just putting the finishing touches on a new
book that'll be have this fall, about the templars and assassins. Awesome,
So he's picking these obscure topics to write about.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
I don't know if you could call the assassins obscure,
after you know, Assassin's Creed became such a best seller.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
If you know, maybe there's some popular interest in a topic. Well,
we'll see who comes.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, Well, I'm always interested in Steve's take on the templar,
so I'm sure that's going to be an awesome session.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
So I'm doing doing that, otherwise I will be traveling
the wilds of England and enjoying many medieval topics.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Awesome, And you're going to be sending reports.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Back to us.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Yeah, check out our social media. I'll try to be
pretty active on it.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
On the website, we have this really interesting piece by
Daniel Morris, and he's not a medieval historian per se,
but he's actually an AI data specialist at Reddit, and
so what he was doing was he was exploring the
letters of Margaret Paston. Paston Letters are the kind of
very famous fifteenth century collection a lot of people look
(53:35):
at social history. We wanted to find out what was
the authentic voice of Margaret. Since she couldn't rate herself,
she had to have ascribed to transcribe it, which usually
were her sons. But he wanted to take a look
and see how various words were done, you know, like
switching from different pronouns, was she using what were her
(53:56):
son's actually putting in? And some nice data and analysis there.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Well, that is a tricky not to untangle. So I
think there's going to be lots of people interested in
finding out what the methodology for that was indeed.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Indeed, so yeah, feel free to check that out. We
just got that out this last weekend, and I am
looking forward to some other pieces from medieval historians that
are just writing for us, telling us about their research.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Well, I mean there's always new stuff that's appearing, plus
all the back catalog of articles, because I'm sure people
will find things that they haven't read on medievalis dot net.
So even while you're away, there's going to be plenty
to read on their website.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
Right, we will still be putting out new content even
while I'm flying away.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
You got to keep the gears turning because the world
needs more medieval information coming out.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Indeed, indeed, Well.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Save travels, Peter, and we will talk to you when
you get back.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Thank you to all of you for the many ways
you've supported this podcast for almost three hundred episodes, whether
that's by sharing your favorites, sharing my books, letting the
ads roll on through, or especially becoming members on patreon
dot com. In celebration of the upcoming three hundredth episode,
everyone on Patreon is welcome to get on the episode
(55:14):
three hundred thread and ask me anything about history, about podcasting,
or about my deep and abiding love for Sirgooing. I'll
answer all your questions on episode three hundred. All you
need to do is to be a member of the
Patreon community at patreon dot com slash Medievalists, So go
ahead ask me anything, and while you're at it, if
(55:35):
you'd like to kick in a dollar or two to
keep the lights on here at the medieval Podcast, I'll
be eternally grateful for everything from Iberian Queen's two Siberian scenes.
Follow Medievalist dot Net on Instagram at medievalist net or
blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle Sabalski
across social media at five in Medievalist or five minute Medievalist,
(55:59):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is Beyond the Warriors by gie Frog. Thanks
for listening, and have yourself a wonderful day.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and ninety
seven of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Sabalski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. Grief is something that affects
all of us differently, but when you're in the public eye,
everyone has an opinion about how you should be expressing it,
and this is as true of the Middle Ages as
(00:36):
it is today. For three medieval queens, in particular, expressing
grief the right way had immense and far reaching consequences.
This week, I spoke with doctor Nuria Sierras Fernandez about
grief and the quote unquote madness of three Iberian queens.
Nuria is professor of Spanish and Portuguese at the University
(00:56):
of Colorado, Boulder and the author of several works on
Iberian women, including Power, piety and Patronage in Late Medieval Queenship,
Maria de Luna and Chariots of Ladies, Francesque Ischimenez, and
the court culture of Medieval and early modern Iberia. Her
new book is the Politics of Emotion, Love, Grief and
(01:17):
Madness in Medieval and Early Modern Iberia. Our conversation on
what grief and widowhood were supposed to look like for queens,
how grief and madness were thought to be intertwined with
true love, and how the grief of the women in
the famous Isabella the Catholics family shape the history of
Spain is coming up right after this. Well, thank you
(01:41):
Nuria for joining me to talk about these queens of Iberia.
It's so nice to meet. We finally made it happen
getting together to talk about these queens. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Thank you very much for having met in your podcast.
I am very happy to be with all of you today.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay, started at the beginning and ask you what made
you decide that this was a topic that needs to
be talked about, queens and their grief. What made you
decide that we need to study this closely?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, several things. As you know, it takes a long
time to write a book. You had to research a
book and then you had to write a book. So
it took me a long time. But when I was
like researching it and writing it, it was during the pandemic,
and during the pandemic, the covined nineteen pandemic, grief became
very important because we were all driving, we were breaving
(02:32):
because we lost people we loved. We were dreaming because
we lost our life as we knew it. We were
like love it tried that house our houses, and we
were all like sad and angry, and in a way
we were grieving. And then it was very difficult for
many people, particularly originally from Spain, even though I am
(02:56):
a professor at the University of Colorado, Boulder and Pain.
During the pandemic, particularly at the beginning, it was very
difficult for people to do anything. Basically, it was not
like in the US that we have more freedom to live,
have houses. And for example, I have friends who lost
(03:16):
their parents and they couldn't even go to their burial.
It was just illegal. And talking to my friends that
were telling me, this is just so hard and so
sad because I couldn't say goodbye, we couldn't gathered, I
couldn't see my cibilians. And then, you know, I have
already been thinking about grieving for a long time, and
I was thinking this is interesting because it's true. You know,
(03:38):
ritual helps us to feel better because we grieve in community,
and all the practices that we do help us to
move forward, and it's very difficult to move forward if
you cannot visualize death in a way, and if you
had to be just inside your house, your apartment. So
(03:59):
I was thinking about all of this when I was
writing my book. I am a medievalist, and I was thinking, oh,
I know three Iberian queens that had problems with grief,
and they have never ever been studied together, and they
have never been studied from the point of view of grief.
(04:21):
You know, one of the math is very famous because
she was known as the mad because it was mad.
And then some people knew that she had a grandmother
who also suffered from grief. But when I discovered that
one I had also an eldest sister who also suffered
from grief, I was thinking, I see a pattern here.
(04:43):
You know, people were struggling with grief and with mental
health issues, and it's very important that we discuss these
things so people know how in the past they also
had problems with grief and emotions and suffering.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yes, it was a sense of what things were like
in Iberia around grief in general at this time before
we get into the queens themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Okay, so in the Middle Ages and the early Modern period,
which it changes in grief. So during the whole Middle Ages.
The Church tried to control grief because in a way,
Christianity thought that those who were grieving a lot were
not obeying God's will. They were not following God's will
(05:29):
because after all, its song and died was because God
decided to take them with him or to send them
to hell, whatever. So in a way it was like
it was all about God. So for a few centuries,
the Church try to legislate how to grief, what was appropriate,
(05:50):
what was inappropriate. For example, they were trying to move
beyond the model from antiquity where people were like pulling
their you're under hair and they were scratching their faces,
all that performance of grief that was very physical. They
tried to control that. And the same thing happened in
(06:12):
the crown. The crown also tried to control grief. Following
the church ideals, you had to control your emotions while grieving.
So there were things that you could do and things
that you were not expected to do, to the point
that in theory a priest was not supposed to enter
a house if he was like listening or seeing people
(06:35):
behaving in ways that were fully inappropriate. That said, it
took the Church many centuries to control that because when
you know, when people were like suffering really intensely, it
was very difficult for them to control the old ways.
But in the sixteenth century, in the sixteenth century, you
(06:56):
see that little, very little control and restraint, see it.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yes, it's interesting when you think about it that way,
where we think of grief as being something healthy, something
that you should be going through, and I think nowadays
people are starting to say, let those feelings out rather
than restraining them. And so it's interesting to have a
look back at this moment in history where people are
trying to hold it in because I think that this
(07:21):
is super important to what you're talking about in the book. Okay,
so we need to get into the Queen's So give
us a sense of what time period we are in,
first of all, and what things look like in the
Iberian Peninsula because some of this relates to politics. So
tell us a little bit about what things are like
then and there.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Well, it just because I understudying grief in connection with love,
because the idea was that those who love are of
those who grief, because unless you really love someone, you
are not going to be suffering as much. So and
this is part of the problem. So I understudy in
three queens things that are all related to the most
(08:03):
important queen of the Iberian Peninsula, Isabel the Catholic. Isabelle
the first of Castile married Fernando the Second of Aragon,
and they got known as the Catholic Monarchs. These two
are very important in world history because they were the
ones who unified dynastically Spain. They were the ones who
(08:27):
conquered the last Muslim kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula and Granada.
They were the ones who created the Inquisition. They were
the ones who spelled the Jews from the kingdoms. And
they were also the ones who sent Columbus to India,
(08:47):
but as you well know, he ended up in the Caribbean.
So they started in a way, you know, the colonization,
the conquest and exploitation of the Americans. So they are
very important in Spanish history. So Isabel the Catholic and
Fernando Isabel had a mother. Her mother was Isabelle of Portugal.
(09:08):
Her mother is one of those people who suffered from
intense grief. Isabel the Catholic and Fernando had four daughters
and a son. So I am studying two of their daughters,
their eldest daughter also named Isabelle, and then also Juanna.
One of the problems is that all of them were
named Isabelle, because the monarchy is all about continuity, so
(09:32):
you had to show, you know, that continuity and a
way of showing it is true names. So in fourteen
ninety two was when they spelled the Jews and they
say Columbus to the Americas. In fourteen eighty was when
the Inquisition started. So with isabel the Catholics, mom we
(09:53):
are in the mid fifteenth century, and with Juana, who
was one of the daughters of Isabelle the Catholic, we
are already in the sixteenth century because she died an
old lady, So yeah, fitting in sixteenth century mostly.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Right, Okay, So we're going to start with the grandmother
of the story, Isabella of Portugal. So at this moment
we're still looking to unite different Iberian kingdoms, but it
hasn't happened yet. So Isabella of Portugal, she has a
marriage that seems fairly successful, but then her husband dies
(10:28):
and she maybe we should mention before we get to
her husband dying, that she's had some issues with depression
what we would call depression before, so give us a
sense of what's going on with Isabella Portugal.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Well, one of the problems that we have when studying
the past is the vocabulary. Yeah, because of course they
didn't they didn't have the word depression. They didn't have
the war was far from depression. So I had to
be careful in the book because even though I say
and I explained that we have a different terminology, and
I try to use the terminology from the period, it's
(11:03):
also important that we acknowledge that if a historical source
says that a lady had a baby and all the
sudden she was super sad. You didn't want to live
her room, everything was like dark, and you know, this
is probably what we nowadays called depression. She had the
baby and she felt terrible, and they call it melancholy,
(11:27):
but you know, they were aware of the fact that
she was sad for no reason. And this happened to
Isabelle and nowadays apparently because as you well know, psychiatry
and psychology keeps evolving and changing. But when I was
doing research, I was trying to also understand how we
(11:47):
see these problems nowadays, because sometimes it's helpful and in
a way when you study the past, you learned about
the present because all of a sudden you realize, so
how do we understand this problems nowadays? And nowadays we
are more understanding with mental health and we want to
help people, which is good. But I was reading that
(12:10):
women who suffer from postpartum depression have more chances of
developing depression later on in life. It doesn't have to happen,
but it might happen to you, and I think that
this is what happened to Isabelle's mother, Isabella of Portugal,
when her husband died again. She was really sad, very well.
(12:31):
We drawn she then want to participate in corereativities and
she moved to another balance and at the beginning, I
have the feeling that she was happy to be away
from the royal court because she was more independent. Her
mother moved from Portugal to be with her, which shows
me that she was not doing well, because it's very
(12:53):
weird that your mom in the Middle Ages in the
fifteenth century moves in with you.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes, yeah, her mom came to support her, which is
very sweet to see this happening because it was so
unusual for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And she was a widow so I
guess that she thought, my daughter needs me. She's a
widow now she has like two small children. I had
to go there. So it was very sweet and they
were together until the mom died. So I think that
that's actually beautiful. So Isabelda Catholic. As a child, she
was living with her mom, with her grandmother and with
(13:28):
her brothers.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, well, poor Isabella Portugal. She had a hard time
in her widowhood, not just because she was probably prone
to depression anyway, which I think you're probably right about,
although it's so hard to tell from the source. Yes,
but her husband before he died, made sure she was
going to be lonely, right.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, this was very typical in the fifteenth century, but
later on, no, it totally changed, which is very interesting
to discover this change. In the Middle Ages, kings wanted
their wife not to have any other partners after they
were gone. So the idea was, I am going to
give you enough money and of power. You are going
to be in charge of for children, but you are
(14:11):
never going to have another partner. You are going to
be changed and you are going to be my widow.
So and this was the idea. This change with the
Hubsmore family because they had such a huge empire that
you know, they needed their women to remarry and you
see it all the time. It was a big change.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So yeah, yes, well, I mean she would have lost
her power, which I don't think she was super interested in,
like you were saying. I think she was happy to
be away from court. But it also stapilated. She would
lose her children and that was probably going to be
a bigger incentive for staying chaste as a widow.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah. Yeah, it was very common in general for women.
The idea was, you know you are going to remarry,
you are going to lose the children. Yeah, very common. Yeah,
so that's why it was easier not to do with you,
particularly class women here.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So how do people regard this from the outside, where
they like, this is totally appropriate for her to be
sad for a really long time. How do people view
is a Belletle of Portugal and her grief?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
The problem is that we have sources, but not too many,
and for it we have like chronicles, and all the
chronicles mentioned that when her husband died, she was very
sad and she didn't recover. It's true that that is
like a chronicle that insinoids. At at some point she
was visited by the king and his men and one
of them tried to rape her, or you know, he
(15:41):
attended against her chastity, which is what it means that
she was sexually assaulted somehow because they were less descriptive
than nowadays, and that that made her even worse. So
we only have those sources. But what we know for
sure is that she was always away, And what we
know for sure is that her daughter, isabel the cathl
(16:04):
like when she became the princess and then the queen,
she busied her mother, but her mother never left that palace.
So I think that she was not doing well, honestly,
because otherwise, you know, she would have been incorporated into
the family more and this she was not.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
This is basically all we really know of her story,
that she was secluded, that she stayed secluded. But it's
important to have her as an anchor point because the
other two queens that you're talking about are her granddaughters.
So Isabella Portugal had Isabelle the Catholic as her daughter,
intensely powerful, famous woman, and then Isabel the Catholic had
(16:45):
a few daughters. As you're saying, one of them, for
people who need to anchor themselves in history might know
that Tutor is better. One of her daughters is Catherine Amaricon,
So we're gonna be talking about Catherine's sisters now. So yes,
having this grandmother who is famously grieving for a long
time is in the background of the stories that we're
about to tell. So it's important for you to have
(17:06):
brothers into the book to anchor us in there. But
now let's turn to the daughters of Isabel the Catholic.
One of them, of course has to be another Isabel,
So tell us what happens with Isabel of Aragon.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So it's Abella of Aragon was the eldest daughter of
isabela Catholic and Fernando. Okay, so what is important also
what the grand mother is that it uncursed the book,
as you were saying, but it was in the memory
of the contemporaries. So everybody that saw how her granddaughters
(17:42):
were behaving also thought about the grandmother who died a
very old lady, so she was alive for a long time.
So she had two daughters. Isabella of Aragon was married
into Portugal. She moved to Portugal at the beginning when
she was like a child, because it was like a
hostage of peace. So she was living in Portugal for
(18:04):
a while, and then she went back to Castilla with
her parents, and then eventually she was married to a Fonso,
Prince of Portugal, the heir of the crown of Portugal.
So she had a very important role because Castile and
Portugal have been a war and in a way, this
marriage was like the solution to the political problems. So
(18:27):
even though it was an arranged marriage, because if you
were a princess or a prince in that time period,
you didn't really choose your partner. I mean, your parents
married you because they had political needs. So even though
the marriage was like a range, apparently they were very
happy together. I mean, this can't happen. I mean you can't,
(18:49):
I guess, fall in love with your husband afterwards necessatinly before.
So it's a very sad story because you know they
were mad for eight months and the prince fell from
his horse and died. How many people fell from horses
in the Middle Ages. I had to say, the poor
(19:10):
boy died he was only sixteen, while she was like
five years old. And then the Portuguese had a way
of grieving. That was very intense. Not only Isabell of
Aragon the wife who was like devastated, the parents of
the prince, the court, the kingdom. I had to say
(19:33):
that the situation was particularly bad because Prince Alfonso Portugal
was an only child, so it was like a personal
tragedy but also a political tragedy because they needed to
find a successor to ensure the peaceful transition of power.
So that's why everybody was like very excited and very sad.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well, and as you're saying that he is, Tridio fell apart,
so not only a disaster for Portugal, but a disaster
for the Iberian peninsula. That everyone was thinking, well, we've
united Castile in Arragona, we're gonna unite with Portugal at
least in terms of peace. And now this has fallen
apart as well. So what does it say in the
records that is about dead and her grief when her
(20:20):
really young husband died.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, all the sources mentioned that she ate very lited,
She got very very skinny. It was like a sort
of like Holli and Aleksa in a way. I mean,
she didn't like to eat much. So many sources mentioned
that she was too skinny. Then she was wearing very
(20:43):
simple clothing, not the type of clothes that a royal
woman should be wearing. Then she got her head. She
had very beautiful and blonde hair like her mom. She
got her hair. She didn't want to look or a
beautiful or appeeling. She was a sort of like martyr
(21:03):
of love in a way. She was performing grief in
a very public way. She was like crying a lot.
She was sleeping on the floor, but endly she didn't
even want to sleep like on a bit. So she
was very very sad, very sad. And she was not
the only one, but yeah, she was very sad.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Do you feel, looking at what you've studied in terms
of grief in the Iberian Peninsula, that she followed the
Portuguese and her method of grieving or did she follow
sort of her own Castilian way of doing it or arogonies.
I guess she could have been influenced by both of
her parents. What sort of pattern of grief was she following?
And do you think this was intentional or just sort
(21:44):
of coming from within her?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think that she was following the Portuguese way, because
you know, the Portuguese court was more willing to express
grief in a very physical way. So I think that
she was performing like Portuguese princess and that's it. I
think that her grief was very genuine, and such sadness
(22:11):
was very genuine.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, well, it's important because we were trying to establish
the patterns, right, So I wanted to ask that question
to see if she was expressing this in a way
that you feel was coming from her, or if this
was a role that she was playing. And it's funny
because it looks like the daughters of Isabel the Catholic
don't care as much about politics as she does. So
(22:33):
this is a question I wanted to ask about. Because
Isabel Portugal no longer needs to perform as a Princess
of Portugal. Necessarily she could just go home, So I
wanted to ask about what you thought about her own grief.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, yeah, I honestly think that she let herself go
more because she was in Portugal, because for example, her
grandmother or her sister Juana didn't behave like she did.
They were wearing more discrets in their sophery, they weren't
as public. But even when she went back to Castill,
(23:09):
we have sources mentioned in that she ate very little,
that she was very sleeve. So yeah, I think that
she was not doing great even when she moved back
home when it was obvious that she was not pregnant.
She was sent back home because her parents needed Isabel.
The problem was that Isabel was the second in the
(23:32):
line of succession of both crowns. Because Isabel had a
brother named jan a boy and he was inheriting everything,
but she was the second in the line of succession,
so they wanted her back because her parents understood that
she needed to recover, compose herself, and marry again.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
M hm. So she goes back to Castile and that's
what she does. She's given some time to compose herself
and then eventually her parents are like, well, you need
to marry somebody else. But she really drags her.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Feet, right, Yeah, she doesn't want to get married again.
She doesn't want to and for a while, I honestly
think that her parents were trying to support her because
they were seeing that she was not doing well. It's
very difficult to find the sources, so I am pissing
like letters and small things here and there, and I
(24:26):
have found like a small mentions to Isabel and her
unwillingness to get married in like letters and chronicles. So no,
she didn't want to, but her parents asked her to
do so. And what is more important, the new heir
of the crown of Portugal was a fonce uncle and cousin, Manuel,
(24:47):
Manuel the First of Portugal and Manuel the First of Portugal,
who knew Isabel well because he was a Portuguese and
he was living in the Portuguese court, wanted to marry
Isabel Why because she was the second in the line
of succession to the crowns of Aragon and Castille. And
when the catholicings offered him another daughter, Maria, she said, no, no, no, no,
(25:12):
I want to marry Isabelle. And probably, you know, I
don't know, maybe he liked her. I mean, I don't know,
but I think that the fact that she was inheriting
potentially was what made her so appealing to Manuel.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, it makes all the sense in the world when
we think about the fact that the peace treaty disappeared
with the death of Alphonso, so it needs to be repaired.
It makes the most sense in terms of politics. Everybody
is thinking in terms of what's best for their kingdoms
rather than necessarily what's best for this woman, and so
(25:47):
she drives a hard bargain, right. And this is really
interesting because this has huge repercussions politically and in terms
of the actual human lives involved. So Isabelle says, okay
of merry Manuel on one condition.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And the condition is I want him to spell all
the heretics from Portugal, all the heretics. And this is
a very contentious point because you know, sometimes a scholars
who study minorities, they say, no, the Catholic kings wanted
to spell the Jews from Portugal. But it's way more
(26:24):
complicated than that, and at least the Catholic kings are
very clear about that we are not asking for this.
It is our daughter. And I think that the scholars
have to give more credit to Isabelle because she was
a woman with a lot of agency. She was a princess.
She was you know, she was like in front of
(26:45):
of that stills. It was a princess of Portugal and
she was about to marry the king of Portugal, so
you know, she had a lot of power at that point.
And she was the daughter of Isabelle the Catholic. She
knew what a woman could do because her mother was
bruling Castill, so I mean she knew that women were
(27:08):
able to be politically efficient and active and powerful, So
this is very sad. She imagined herself as a sort
of Christian princess, and she thought that God had punished
her before taking a Fonso away because the kingdom of
(27:28):
herself they were not pious enough. So yeah, it's very sad.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, well it makes sense, Like I'm disagreeing with all
the points that you've made in the book and are,
but it makes somebody who is being raised by two
of the most religious monarchs in all of history and
feeling like she's been punished by having her young husband
taken from her, like it totally makes sense that this
(27:54):
would be something that she would be asking for from
her new husband to maybe please God and maybe just
sort of slow the process down, because expelling all the
hairtaics from a kingdom take some work, takes some time.
So maybe she just really didn't want to get married
and thought this would be a good way of delaying it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and the Catholic monas even wrote to and were
telling him you can send the Muslims back to Castill.
Another going we don't mind the Muslims. So yeah, it's
very you know, like it's very strange, But I honestly
think that it's Avail's conception of Christianity became very radical
(28:34):
at that point.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So what was the fallout in Portugal? Who ended up
being expelled in the end.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So this is a very difficult question to answer, because
you know, the Jews were spelled well those who didn't combat.
Convers was an option, okay, convers was an option. But
in theory, the Jews were sent away, many of them
were forced to leave, and then by heretics. She also
(29:04):
meant some judaiss so all Jews who had converted to
Pedestianity but were practicing Judaism in secret and were prosecuted
by the Inquisition in Castilla and Aragon had moved to
Portugal to avoid more pain. So those ones were also
(29:24):
supposed to leave, and then in theory also the Muslims.
But it is not clear how many lived and what happened.
But you know, she was very inclusive in her exclusion.
She wanted everybody out.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, so a very destructive condition, but it's met. It's
met by her future husband, and she goes to Portugal
and she marries. But even after all this destruction, it
does not last, right.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
But it almost worked, it almost ways because there as
Manuel was anticipating, because Manuel spent some time as a
child in Castille and he knew you know, Isabelle, Fernando
and all the children.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
One was kind of like a week prince. You know,
his health was not very good. So eventually the poor
boy died when he was like nineteen, and then Isabelle
actually heerited, so you know, in a way he was right.
His wife inherited Aragon and Castille and they had a child.
(30:36):
But isabel who was sick. All the sources say he
was very sleim. You know, she was not ready to
wear a child, so she died as a consequence of
giving birth to a prince Miguel, and Miguel later on
died when he was three years old. But they had
to say that Manuel at that point was really tired
(30:57):
of Isabelle. I resumed because as soon as she died,
he left the baby with Isabelle and Fernando and he
went back to Portugal. He needed to deal with Portugal.
He had been in Castile for a long time, so
he just left.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, sort of surprising after all the efforts. But I
mean there are people's personalities involut here as well, right,
They're not just little dolls that will marry end up
happily ever after. And I mean this is certainly the
case with Isabelle's sister Juana, who we need to talk
about because.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Wow, what a story. I mean, not every medieval woman's
life is easy, but Juana seems especially difficult. So how
was about Juana?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Buana was not supposed to inherit. The Crown of Castile
needed the ground of Aragon because she was like the
third one in the line of succession, so she was
not supposed to inherit. But her brother Juan died, her
sister isabel died, her nephew Miguel died, and finally she inherited. Okay,
(32:07):
So because she was not supposed to inherit, her parents
sent her far away. She married Philip, the Archduke Art
Duke Philip. So she was in Flanders, she was in
the Low countries, she was importantly, she was in all
those lands. She was like in Europe. She was not
supposed to be heard it. She was very far away.
(32:29):
So her brother Juan had married Margaret of Austria, who
was Philip's sister. It was like a doubel marriage, a
Doubel alliance, and she was not supposed to inherit, but
she did. These things happened in Lious.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
So she's married far away and she brings people with her.
But her husband, Philip has no tolerance for her heritage, right,
He's just he's just absolutely cruel. And it starts really
early in their doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, And I like the objective that you are. You see,
like Druel, I really think that he was cruel, honestly,
and I think that he was an abusive husband. And
of course this is like a modern terminology because in
the Middle Ages, you know, in the late fifteenth century
and in the early sixteenth century, like husbands were able
to get away with a lot. But even in that period,
(33:25):
Juana's parents and his Spanish ambassadors were pretty scandalized about
the relationship that Juana had with her husband. He in theory,
had the right to impose himself on Juana, but to
a point, particularly after Juana became the heiress of the crowns,
(33:48):
because her mother is al Catholic, she will become queen
because Fernando in Castille was only king consort, and Philip
in Castile and in Aragon he will have been in concert,
not keen.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yes, well that's the thing. She was still a princess.
She should have been treated much better than she was.
And so when we're talking about like this is beyond
even medieval norms. We're talking about Juana being separated from
her friends and attendants. We're talking about her being locked
in a room until she can behave herself in a
way that he thinks is okay. Meanwhile, what he thinks
(34:26):
is okay is parading his mistresses in front of her,
disrespecting her. So, poor Juana has had a terrible marriage.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yes, yes, with drawing the marital death, even saying I
am not going to busit you and sleep with you
unless you start of behaving in a way that they
considered appropriate. She was cruel. He was a cruel hus one, honestly, Yeah,
it was.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yes, yes, absolutely. The two of them end up in
Castile for a while, and poor Juana when her husband
goes back, she still wants to go with him. She's
fighting with her mother about it, just just having the
worst time.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, Well, the problem is that you know when she
became the edge of the kingdoms. When her sister Isabel died,
her parents called her in because the idea was, Okay,
now you need to be sworn by the courts and
your husband two and you had to become a queen
in training. And I had to say that all the
(35:26):
things that we were discussing, all the very very bad
episodes happened after that trip, that trip to be shorn
as it happened a bit later. So when they came
the first time in fifteen oh two, fifteen or three,
they were bad, but not that bad. And the problem
was that Isabel wanted Wanta was staying still because now
(35:49):
she had responsibilities beyond being a mother and a wife.
And surprisingly she didn't want to stay. As you were saying,
she was fighting with her mother alone at that point.
Her dad was her wage. She was in Aragon because
there was a war with France and he was in Aragon.
So Isabel was already sick and Juana, who was with
(36:13):
her her husband left for Flanders. And yeah, they were
fighting all the time, and this completely undermine her reputation
in the Stine. This was her problem, you know, because
Isabel couldn't understand why she wanted to leave. Fernando couldn't
understand why she had to leave. The other courts couldn't
understand it. Then for them it didn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yes, why wouldn't want to rule Castile? Castile is great,
like you should stay and rule it at least after
her mother passes, which hasn't happened yet. But this is
actually a crucial moment, because I think it's this moment
where Isabel starts sitting, I don't know if I can
leave Castile in the hands of this daughter of mine.
So she writes in her will. I think she wrote
(36:59):
her pretty early where she was saying that Fernando will
take over Castile if Fuana is unable or unwilling to
do this right, and this becomes a real difficulty for
Juanna from then on. Have I got that right?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yes, totally? And she repeats that twice in her testament.
And Nisabeth de Catholic was like a very powerful woman.
She understood politics and powers, and she wrote that twice, okay,
to clarify, And she was also really worried because she
didn't want Philip to take over Castile. That's what she
(37:36):
was saying. If my daughter is unable or unwilling, then
my husband Fernando only then, But because if she is
willing and she's able, she should do it. Yeah, So
she gives her like an option. But what she wants
to do she wants to bar Philip from ruling. Not Juanna,
(37:58):
not her husband, but Philip. She doesn't like Philip.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, and so she tries her best. And I really
admire that, I really admire the foresight like this woman.
For all that I don't agree with her politics, she
was formidable for sure. So eventually Isabelle does die when
it does inherit, and so her husband Philip and her
dad Fernando are now in a struggle for power.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
What happens, Yes, in a struggle for powered And I
think that both of them sort of agree that Guana
was not a good candidate, unfortunately, so for different reasons.
Fernando because he was like just to ruling Castile along
with Aragon and he wanted to keep going. And Philip
(38:44):
because he never liked his wife. Yeah, and it was
a good moment for him to finally take COVID and surprisingly,
and this is very interesting, the Castilian nobility didn't like Fernando,
you know, because now we think about Castilla an a
goona's being in Spain, but not in the Middle Ages.
(39:04):
They were two different kingdoms. He was like a foreigner,
even though he was you know, he's an Fernando with
like even those you say we're from the same family.
He was a foreigner, interestingly enough, and he was a
foreigner with a lot of power. And they thought that
young Philip would be much easier to manipulate, and they
(39:27):
were supporting him, and he was like closer to the
crown because he was like the father of the new
air Charles the Feast, and it's true, he was a
fad of all the children theana and he had.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
It's terrible because you really don't want Philip to win anything,
and here he is, and he's in control, or at
least almost in control. He's fighting for control over another
kingdom that belongs to his wife. He's been absolutely terrible
to you. This is not a moment in that story
that I enjoy. Oh oh, it's no, no, no. So
(40:03):
Philip doesn't last that long. Fortunately for me, because I'm
not his biggest friend, he doesn't last that long. But
even then, Juanna doesn't get her rights as clean even
though she's kicking and screaming for them at some points, right.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah, but really, yes, you know, she was like
really disappointed about the situation. But you know, Philip was
really good at keeping her like isolated with the cures
that she was pregnant and that she was not feeling well.
So she was kept like a way. And even Fernando
wasn't able to see his daughter, to visit his daughter
(40:39):
because she was like in costanly you know. So in
the end, and when he saw that he didn't have
the support of the nobility, he signed an agreement with
Philip and he left, He left for his kin dumbs.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah, it's just I hope that people read your book
so that they could get all the details out. Yeah,
so I get to but I just want to called
one of the math and what does this have to
do with grief? Is she really mourning this husband, he's
been terrible to her? Why does she get this reputation?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Okay, so she gets a reputation later on. And there
are like many paintings from the nineteenth century, There are poems,
there are plays, There are like movies that transformed Juanna
into again a market of love and grief, so but
her reputation, I mean she she was also part of
(41:31):
the problem. So okay. Finally, what happened was that her
husband Philip, when he achieved everything that he wanted, Guana
was like set aside. He wanted to be clerk kill incompetent.
But the courts didn't agree. The court thought that Guana
was fine. She was not mad. Basically, maybe she had
(41:53):
some issues, but she was not mad. Anyway, She's acting
as king of Castile. But very soon, a few months later,
he died. He was keen for like seven or eight months.
I mean, it was a very very brief frame. He
died all of a sudden. Apparently he was playing ball
(42:13):
with a few friends. He had eaten a big meal
and then he drank a glass of water, and then
he started having a high fever and he was sick
for a few days, and then he died. Some sourcers
claim that he was poisoned, but I don't know. He
(42:35):
was seriously disliked by some people, but we are never
going to know. But it is true that some sources
claim that he had been poisoned because he was like
doing great. He was playing ball, you know, and all
of a sudden. He was very ill. Okay, So this
should have been Juana's moment because her father, Juana's father, Fernando,
(42:58):
was in Naples. That of Naples was also part of
the Crown of Aragon, so he was in Naples. Her son,
the future Charles the Emperor, was a child, you know,
he was a very young child, completely unable to rule.
Her father in law, Maximilian, was also ruling the empire.
(43:18):
I mean he was busy, Okay. So it was truly
her moment to rally and then start ruling because it
was finally, in a way, it was like free from
all those male supervisors who were constantly controlling her actions.
And to some extent she did that. She started trying
(43:41):
to control the situation. For example, she tried to get
rid of Philips Fleming's advisors who were occupying very important positions.
She tried to settle a few things. It's true, but
she was also very melancholic. She was very sad, She
was very detached. All the advices were saying, we need
(44:05):
to keep doing things, and she was very withdrawn. I
honestly think that she was suffering from what nowadays we
call complicated grief and complicated grief is something that is
similar to depression, and I honestly think that she was
(44:27):
suffering from that, because all the sources mentioned that she
was intelligent, her mind was working, but she was completely withdrawn.
She was not interested in doing a lot of things.
She was as why did you write to your father
to tell him this? And that, well, I do it? Yeah,
I don't know. She was not active enough, okay, and
(44:51):
then she did something that was seen as highly inappropriate.
The inappropriate thing that she did was that instead of
doing what she was expected to do, which is to say,
to start ruling, to inpoce herself. Her husband Philip had
been provisionally buried at a monastery, but in his will
(45:13):
he said that he wanted to be buried in Grandava
like Isabel the Catholic, and also Fernando was supposed to
be buried in Granalda, and he said that in his
last will and testament. And then Juana thought, okay, I
am going to take him to Branalda. And you may think, well,
(45:33):
this is not that crazy. Well it is a bit
crazy because it was as inappropriate because it was already buried,
and the idea is okay, maybe in a couple of years,
we take his remains to Granada, but not one personally.
A few friars, you know, you make like a procession,
and that's it. But Juana, on top of everything, was pregnant,
(45:55):
and pregnant ladies, particularly the pregnant ladies. The Queen of
Castile is not supposed to be traveling because it's not
it was not seen as good for a woman. It
was not very comfortable at the beginning of the sixteenth
century to travel while pregnant. It's not even comfortable nowdays.
Com but every time that I was flying in while
(46:18):
pregnant is uncomfortable. So she was pregnant, she wanted to
do it, and she did that. And because she was pregnant,
and because she took a lot of people with her,
she was going really, really slowly, and by the time
she was stopped, she had been carrying the body for
two years and four months and she never made it
(46:40):
to Granada.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
It's yeah, that's unbelievable, unbelievable. And one of the things
that you mentioned in the book as well is that
they started the journey before, as you were judging at now,
like decomposition had finished. So they're taking a corpse that
is actively decomposing, which is just not something they were
doing at that time. There's a reason why they waited,
(47:02):
and so she's exposing herself to all of this stuff
that at the time people were like, it's the bad Miasthmas.
They're going to have a problem with you, your health,
you're pregnancy. So this does seem extreme. And more than
two years following the casket and never getting there, that
does sound extreme.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yes, yeah, because apparentdly she was getting more and more sick. Well,
she eventually had her baby, of course, but apparently she
was getting secret. She wasn't changing her clothes, she wasn't
cleaning up, she wasn't eating well. She was bad. Towards
the end, she was bad. So her father came back
(47:42):
to Castile, and when they met at the beginning, he thought, okay,
if she wants to do that. She didn't want to
upset her because she wasn't queen of Castile, so he thought, okay,
just keep going and I take care of Castilla. I
want to take care of the kingdoms. And eventually the
people from Perentourage contacted him and they told him this
(48:05):
cannot keep going. She's very sick and at that point
is when Fernando decided to send her to the palace
for the seas, and that was it for Juana Juana,
like her grandmother in a palace there.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah, yes, but even more than her grandmother. She was
such a prisoner in some ways that they were saying
that she couldn't be trusted with anything. They didn't even
tell her when her father died. They just isolated her
and put her aside, which is again so shocking when
she is the Queen of Castile. Her story is so.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Unbelievable because she was not crazy. M This is the point.
I honestly think that she was sofering from a still
in depression, but she was not crazy. That's why eventually
she was feeling bettered and she was saying, okay, so
now what Yeah, and that's why she needed to be
(49:05):
just there. Because of that why her husband and later
her son couldn't rule, so they thought, you know, we're
going to leave her there, and eventually she was a prisoner,
so that I am sure that impacted her mental health.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yes, I mean, how many times in history have inconvenient
women been called crazy and just locked away And this
is just a huge example of this. When she should
have had all the power in the world to be released,
and she just never did, not in her marriage.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
And not later.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Oh there's so much more to say about Juana and
about these other Isabells, but we do need to wrap
up because this is you know, we are talking for
longer than usual.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
But I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
This is such a great discussion.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
So I have to.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Ask you, in looking at grief and these women, is
there one thing that you want to leave people with
after having studied them in women in grieving, is there
one thing that you want to say to people who
are listening about studying these women at this time and
understanding them.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Okay, And I want people to remember that emotions, even
though we tend to think that the emotions are universal
and many emotions are universal, they are so profoundly cultural,
and they are also gendered. And women were seen as
extra emotional and that was a problem for them, particularly
(50:29):
they were women who were very powerful, because even Isabel
the Catholic have problems with griefs. Towards the end of
her life, she was very sad because her son died,
her daughter died, their grandson died, and Juana, she was
very worried about Guana. So Isabelle had been working on
(50:50):
that huge project still and all the Suddens, she was like,
worried about the future. So I want people to remember
that women have been considered always extreme emotional, and that
has been a strategy to deprive them from their power
and to consider them less. So I want them to
(51:12):
remember that that emotions and cultural, that they change over time,
and that women many times were considered emotional for all
the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I think that is a great place to end that
because I think it is so true, and I'm hoping
that people will use your book as an example of
how to pull these things apart, even when the sources
are scarce. So thank you so much, Nuria. I really
enjoyed your book, and thank you for coming on and
talking to us about this.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Thank you, Danielle, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
To find out more about Nuria's work, you can visit
her faculty page at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Her
new book is The Politics of Emotion, Love, Grief, and
Madness in Medieval and Early Modern Hyperia. Before we go,
here's Peter from medievalis dot Net to tell us what's
on the website.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
What's going on, Peter, Hey, Well, later this week I
am flying across the Atlantic and heading to the International
Medieval Congress in Leeds, England.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
It's going to be such a great time, so envious.
You're going to see all of our favorite people.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Give me awesome, and it's like a pilgrimage right for
all medievalsts. I don't have too much to do while
I'm there, but I am hosting a special talk with
Steve Temple, a friend Ofmdievalist dot.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yes and friend of the podcast. That's going to be awesome.
What's Steve going to be talking about with you?
Speaker 3 (52:32):
Yeah, he's just putting the finishing touches on a new
book that'll be have this fall, about the templars and assassins. Awesome,
So he's picking these obscure topics to write about.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
I don't know if you could call the assassins obscure,
after you know, Assassin's Creed became such a best seller.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
If you know, maybe there's some popular interest in a topic. Well,
we'll see who comes.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, Well, I'm always interested in Steve's take on the templar,
so I'm sure that's going to be an awesome session.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
So I'm doing doing that, otherwise I will be traveling
the wilds of England and enjoying many medieval topics.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Awesome, And you're going to be sending reports.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Back to us.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Yeah, check out our social media. I'll try to be
pretty active on it.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
On the website, we have this really interesting piece by
Daniel Morris, and he's not a medieval historian per se,
but he's actually an AI data specialist at Reddit, and
so what he was doing was he was exploring the
letters of Margaret Paston. Paston Letters are the kind of
very famous fifteenth century collection a lot of people look
(53:35):
at social history. We wanted to find out what was
the authentic voice of Margaret. Since she couldn't rate herself,
she had to have ascribed to transcribe it, which usually
were her sons. But he wanted to take a look
and see how various words were done, you know, like
switching from different pronouns, was she using what were her
(53:56):
son's actually putting in? And some nice data and analysis there.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Well, that is a tricky not to untangle. So I
think there's going to be lots of people interested in
finding out what the methodology for that was indeed.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Indeed, so yeah, feel free to check that out. We
just got that out this last weekend, and I am
looking forward to some other pieces from medieval historians that
are just writing for us, telling us about their research.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Well, I mean there's always new stuff that's appearing, plus
all the back catalog of articles, because I'm sure people
will find things that they haven't read on medievalis dot net.
So even while you're away, there's going to be plenty
to read on their website.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
Right, we will still be putting out new content even
while I'm flying away.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
You got to keep the gears turning because the world
needs more medieval information coming out.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Indeed, indeed, Well.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Save travels, Peter, and we will talk to you when
you get back.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Thank you to all of you for the many ways
you've supported this podcast for almost three hundred episodes, whether
that's by sharing your favorites, sharing my books, letting the
ads roll on through, or especially becoming members on patreon
dot com. In celebration of the upcoming three hundredth episode,
everyone on Patreon is welcome to get on the episode
(55:14):
three hundred thread and ask me anything about history, about podcasting,
or about my deep and abiding love for Sirgooing. I'll
answer all your questions on episode three hundred. All you
need to do is to be a member of the
Patreon community at patreon dot com slash Medievalists, So go
ahead ask me anything, and while you're at it, if
(55:35):
you'd like to kick in a dollar or two to
keep the lights on here at the medieval Podcast, I'll
be eternally grateful for everything from Iberian Queen's two Siberian scenes.
Follow Medievalist dot Net on Instagram at medievalist net or
blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find me Danielle Sabalski
across social media at five in Medievalist or five minute Medievalist,
(55:59):
and you can find my books at all your favorite bookstores.
Our music is Beyond the Warriors by gie Frog. Thanks
for listening, and have yourself a wonderful day.
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!