May 8, 2025 • 48 mins
To get a fuller picture of medieval queenship, it's time to head to the heart of Scandinavia to learn about the lives of the lesser-known medieval women who found themselves - intentionally or unintentionally - ruling a kingdom. This week, Danièle speaks with Caroline Wilhelmsson about the royal women of Sweden, how they became queens, and how they exercised their power.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and eighty
nine of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Sebolski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. One of the major aims
of this podcast is not just to go over the
well known and well beloved figures of medieval history, although
that is always a great time, but it's also to
bring attention to those people who have tended to be
(00:37):
on the sidelines of historical narratives that have come down
to us through the centuries. It seems to me that
the better we can understand these people and to try
to get close to their lived experiences, the better we
can understand the period as a whole. So for this episode,
we're heading to a kingdom nestled in the heart of
Scandinavia to learn about the lives of its early queens.
(00:58):
This week, I spoke with doctor Carolineville Thumpson about the
royal women of Sweden. Caroline is an assistant curator at
the Tower of London, where she works on the history
and development of the Waterloo be Barracks and the Royal
Fusilier Museum. Her medieval work focuses on the politics of
early Sweden, including her new book The Queens and Royal
Women of Sweden Zarka nine seventy two thirteen thirty Their Lives,
(01:22):
Power and Legacy. Our conversation on how a woman became
a queen in Sweden, how she exercised her power, and
how the role of queenship changed over time is coming
up right after this. Well, welcome Caroline to talk about
the royal women of Sweden. You're a trailblazer in this
(01:42):
field and I am so happy to have you on
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So In your book you mentioned that like nobody has
talked about these royal women in Sweden and either Swedish
or English. What's happening here.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What's happening is that women have traditionally been seen as
kind of secondary accessories to kingship and to male power
in general. You do see them in scholarship where they're
just like mentioned, you know, you'll get one mind, if
you're lucky, maybe a footnote, and it's usually as part
of a biography or a chapter or a bigger piece
(02:17):
about a man. It's not, you know, focusing on that
particular woman. My book was quite a bit of a
novelty in that I decided to focus on these women
and to actually dig a bit deeper into their lives,
into their biographies as far as feasible, because of course
there's quite a few of them for whom we have
no precise information, not because you know, it's so old.
(02:39):
So I did reuse a lot of existing scholarship and
existing information. It's more about compiling it in just one
place and really putting the emphasis on these women. And
I would say though that you know, I'm part of
a new generation of scholars. It's becoming more and more
common to talk about women. I mean, the book was
published as part of a series focuses on royal women
(03:02):
all over the world and throughout history. So while my
book was a first in that particular, very niche field
of Swedish queens, it is very much part of a
much bigger trend kind of all over academia.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
At the moment, yes, and before we turned on the microphones,
we were talking about this is part of the series
that Matthew Firth is part of. Some people who were
interested in that episode in January, this is part of
the same series covering royal women, and I think it's
such an important series and both of you had lots
of challenges putting together these biographies, in part because of
(03:39):
the nature of the sources and what things were like
in Sweden at the beginning of the period that you're studying.
So can you give us a sense of what it's
like for just royalty in Sweden at this time, because
it's not as easy to trace as people might think.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Right, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
The book starts in the tenth century to like bang
on the middle of the Viking Age, and so Sweden
is not really a thing yet. It's definitely not a
state that really doesn't come into play before like the
sixteenth century, or it's not in my realm. It not
my field at all. It's not a kingdom either. It's
not just one unit. It's a bunch of different petty kingdoms.
(04:20):
That's what we call. Some people used to use the
word tribes. That's that's not really a thing anymore. But
that gives you an idea of these kind of smaller
groups with the chief with a local sort of elite.
I don't want to use the word aristocracy because it's
not quite the system yet. So all of these people
kind of coexist in this context. So they do have
(04:43):
quite a lot of things in common in terms of culture,
in terms of language. You know, obviously they're using the
same weapons, they kind of have the same technology, so
you know that that will be the vikings you're thinking
of when you're watching TV or whatever, but they are
actually quite irrelated. In Sweden, you have a lot of
very dense forests, I mean still today, but it would
even worse back then. Communication routes and networks are not
(05:07):
that well developed yet, and so you don't have central
kingship like you do in other places in Europe. You
can't compare with like England or France or any of
these places, and so that makes it a bit complicated
already to kind of define what is a king, right,
so are we just talking about like a local chief
(05:27):
or are we talking about like dynasty or like, you know,
how does it work? And then obviously what is a
queen because it's even less well defined. And at that time,
warriors men usually have plenty of partners, concubines, possibly legal
wives as well, several wives. Because we don't have Christianity yet,
(05:49):
it's not in Sweden, it's not a thing yet. We've
heard of missionaries. We kind of know the concept, but
Christianity doesn't really spread in earnest before like the twelve
century something like that. It's really quite late, even compared
to Denmark and Norway. So the Vinkings obviously had lots
of contacts with the rest of Europe, so they are
aware of what is happening outside of Scannavia, how things
(06:13):
are being run, the aristocracy, all these things. They know that,
but obviously they're still kind of existing in their own
little prehistoric system, if you want to use the word
prehistoric as in pre written sources, which is how we
use it in Sweden. And so you've got a weird
mix of kind of like archaic practices and the beginning
(06:34):
of like continental customs coming in. So it's a mess basically,
as you might gather from me trying to explain this situation.
I knew when I decided to start in the tenth century.
I knew that the first part of the book was
going to be a little bit pragmatic from that perspective,
but I did want to tackle all the issue because
(06:55):
the whole point is that a lot of people have
avoided the issue because it is messy. So we've got
a massive gap in our knowledge and in scholarship for
that period because people in general kind of prefer to
deal with the twelfth century onwards because that's when we
start having really more elaborate written sources and records of
all kinds. So, yeah, what we have in terms of
(07:17):
sources for that period, so we do have plenty of
records written from outside of Sweden, so a lot of clerics,
a lot of priests, amongst you know, the kind of
the people who wrote basically at the time from Germany,
mainly writing about what they are seeing and hearing about Sweden.
Usually these people never went to Sweden, so they start
(07:40):
writing about like cyclops and stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Like that, and it's like, yeah, he definitely didn't go.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
These sources, obviously are most of the sources we've got
for that period, but they're also very interesting because they
kind of tell us how Sweden was seen from a
continental perspective and how they fit within that European context
and political context. So it is very important. But in
terms of indigen sources, we've got very few. So we've
got rainstones, which are pretty much useless when it comes
(08:09):
to queen ship because they don't really talk about queens,
very useful for talking about women, in general though, so
they're still very valuable sorts for gender studies, but I
didn't use them as much as I would have wanted
to as part of the book.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And then it's just archaeology really.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yes, So how does someone get to be a king
at this point because it's not the same sort of
linear way that people are doing this later. And then
how does someone get to be a queen? Based on
the sketchy sources that we have from the earliest time,
what does it look like GE's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
In terms of becoming a king? You get chosen, so
it's elective, and it's actually the monarchy's wooden is elective
for quite a few centuries. After that you only get
into the you know, linear succession kind of from the
fourteenth century onward. But that to me evil thing in general,
like in a lot of different countries, it's actually elective,
(09:04):
and I think a lot of people kind of forget
about that being the son of a king did not
mean that you were going to inherit the throne, you know,
those kind of things that you see in the sagas.
That's the theme that comes back quite a lot. You've
got to prove yourself you've got to prove that you
are a good leader. So you've got all these different
criteria kind of changing a little bit depending on you know,
what period we're looking at and what area. But you know,
(09:26):
you've got to be brave and you've got to be stronger.
You need to have lots of women around you to
prove that you're the best, and this kind of stuff.
In Sweden we do have quite an emphasis as well
on land ownership, but I mean it kind of feeds
into that idea that you've got to be the strongest anyway.
It's either physical or economical, but basically it's kind of
(09:47):
always the idea you need to have more resources than
your neighbor, and I mean, obviously there's a reason for
that as well, right It does mean that you can
protect your village or whatever better as.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, so we do get a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
In many cases, we're not too sure where these people
actually came from, but it usually is like long lines
off warriors, so it's kind of always the same. And
you usually have like religious connotations as well, so they're
always claiming some vague godly ancestry or trying to pull
these kind of strings just to kind of reaffirm their
claim to power. And as you progress through history though
(10:22):
and through the book, you start seeing more and more
an emphasis on politics, political power, economic power, religious power
as well. It kind of gets more and more continental
from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Basically, it follows.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
The decline of the vicinage as well, raiding and all
these things. It kind of starts getting out of fashion
in like the eleventh century or something like that. People
say ten sixty six. It's not quite true, obviously, it's
quite obviousally it keeps going for a while. But yeah,
so that's how you become a king. And then as
to how do you become a queen, well, usually you
get kidnapped. Basically, that's what we see in the sources.
(10:58):
We suppose, of course that's some So of these unions
were more peaceful, but that's not the ones you're going
to talk about in the sources, for obvious reasons. You're
going to talk about the stuff that makes you look
very strong or that makes you look very bad, like oh,
that guy, he kidnapped so many women. And it's written
by a get from Germany, so you're not actually sure whether.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
It's true or not.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But so usually women are chosen from the ranks of
your enemies because it's a way of striking an alliance. Basically, Yeah,
women are just used as diplomatic tools. Yes, absolutely, it's
great and that's usually what happens. And every time you've
got a battle, like a really big one, you'll get
another woman and this kind of you know, just carry
something like that. And we don't know how they choose
(11:37):
which one is the main wife. Probably has to do
with ancestry, you know, which one is the highest in
terms of social status, simple as that. I would like
to think that sometimes they didn't really fall in love,
but I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So, yes, I'm with you there, like you're hoping. You're
hoping that it's not all grim and tragic, but it's
not like a gad. But you're mentioning in the book
that you can have several wives as you're saying, or
concubines or however we want to define this, which is
very difficult to do at this moment. And there isn't
a hierarchy in terms of their children except ye possibly
(12:16):
possibly and maybe later. This has to do with the
religious wedding or social status. But this is not quite unique,
but it is special to Sweden and that there doesn't
seem to be the same type of hierarchy as there
is in other cultures that have this many concubines and wives.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, that is very interesting. It are
people that have been talking to kind of spontaneously. Compare
with China, for example, that is like so stratified with
that concubine that is kind of the head of that
household and that one is doing this. You don't seem
to have that in Sweden, at least it doesn't appear
in the sources. And it very much looks like if
(12:53):
you are a child of a chief, then that's it.
We're one of his kids, and then you know, you
kind of have the same rights as everybody else. It's
true that it is very much linked to what we
define as a union as well, because in the twelfth
century and for most of the eleventh century, we don't
have any evidence that they actually got married as in
(13:14):
what marriage is in canon law, like you know, the
kind of religious Christian marriage. It's not really a thing.
And I mean that's not unique to Sweden. We've got
the same in Anglo Saxon, England. You know, they do
have their own systems of unions, but we're not too
sure how that worked, so it could very well be
that all these different unions were seen as equal. And
then when it comes to choosing like your favorite son
(13:36):
or whatever, it might be like, well, your mom was
of higher status, or your mom was cleverer, or you know,
this kind of criteria. But it's not set in stone,
definitely not, which makes it very messy then, because so
many things can happens, so many things, so many combinations,
and that's what we see throughout the early medieval period
really brothers in fighting. I mean, that's that's quite common everywhere,
(13:59):
to be honest, because everyone could really hope to become
the next leader. It does well, you do, adopting situations
all fairly unique, and Sweden, being so late in adopting
Christianity and continental standards compared to the rest of Northern
Europe is quite unique in that regard. Then we actually
(14:20):
have sources, you know, talking about these systems of kinship
and everything, so it's quite quite an interesting situation really.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
And when time starts to pass and Sweden starts to
adopt Christianity more broadly, and there starts to be like
weddings in the legal science, the can in law sense
like you're talking about. They are still reaching across to
other places. So maybe not kidnapping as much, even though
that still seems to be a thing, but reaching out
to other countries to find queens. And one of the
(14:52):
things that you mentioned in the book is like this
foreignness is almost legitimizing in itself, right, can you tell
us about how that works?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So there is research being done on this, not by me,
so it's a very exciting field of study. Yeah, you
always have that idea that having a foreign queen is
actually a very good thing.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So when you.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Look at like the tenth century, it seems to be
more of a religious thing. I mean, obviously all these
places were far away with hard to reach you know,
like of course the Vikings were very good sailors and everything,
but it was still a trick to go to Poland
or Russia or whatever, And there was that having a
woman from such a far away place kind of gave
(15:31):
a bit of a godly character to someone. Basically it's like,
oh what a lad, but like ten times and obviously
these people look a little bit different. They speak a
language that is something I'm not talking at all about
in the book, because you know, there is a word limit.
But these women come back, they're not dressed exactly the same,
they look a bit different, they speak a different language.
It's impressive to these people who actually believe in the
(15:53):
gods and everything. It's quite something. So it seems that
we've got some mythological ideas and concepts kind of getting
mixed into the reality there. And it's also a way
for the king to kind of keep a distance with
his subjects by not choosing someone who's two clothes. It's like,
I'm a little bit different, we are different, We're not
(16:14):
quite like you. And that's actually something that you get
with the aristocracy later on, you know, kind of keeping
it within the cast. So that's for the tenth century
then later on. So most of the queens in that
book are actually foreign queens, which is maybe not that
unique in terms of if you look at Europe in general,
but it's quite pronounced in Sweden still because it really
(16:36):
is most of them, and that is for political reasons
and diplomatic reasons and economic ones. Because Sweden was so
far behind in terms of things like their agricultural system
of these kind of things. They were really quite late,
partly because they were kind of far away from everyone
and because of the climate.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And all these things.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know, So marrying women from these countries which are
much more developed is a great thing because then you
can basically just appropriate their wealth and their success and
their pedigrees and all of that. So it is prestigious
and it's kind of a way of saying, hey, look,
I am very much part of Europe and European aristocracy.
(17:13):
You know, we're popular abroad and this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, it's interesting because it is a bit of a
contrast to the rest of Europe, where sometimes foreign queens
they're not looked at as being all that worthy because
they're different. Like there's more of a xenophobic aspect to
the people are looking at these queens. And in Sweden,
at least the examples that you have here, it's more
like this is a great status symbol to have a
(17:37):
queen from somewhere else, and so that is something special
to Sweden, it seems.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Absolutely, I mean, if you're looking at queens at the
same time, like in Front and in England, many of
them were properly bullied and rejected by the subjects because
they're precisely not from here, and we're being led and
ruled by someone who's not even from here, whereas in
Sweden it's completely different because these Swedish leaders, the male leaders,
(18:04):
are kind of like it's a nascent aristocracy. They don't
really have big names in their family lines or anything,
you know. They literally just look on guys who manage
to get power, and they need these women to kind
of justify their being in power and legitimize their line.
But that in turn gives a lot of power to
these women because then they know that without them, the
(18:28):
guys can't do anything. And I think that's the theme
that kind of runs through the entire book really, that
quite a lot of these women actually had a lot
of power without doing anything by virtue of having a
big name. It's quite obvious, especially when you get to
the cirteenth century with you know, all these women who
come from Holstein for example, or Megaberg, which are really big,
(18:50):
powerful dynasties at the time. You don't mess with them,
you know. And if you're married to a daughter of Allstein,
you've got to stay.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
In your line.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Is her daddy is much more powerful than the whole
Sweden combined and you don't want to anger him. And
I do think Daddy is quite unique to Sweden, and
also because the legal system supports it as well. The
legal system in Sweden is quite generous towards women, especially
if you compare with Norway, which is right next door,
and it's a completely different ballgame. Different factors just lead
(19:22):
to Swedish women just having more power in general.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
It's one of those strange situations. But the example that
popped into my head is Roman gladiators, right where they're
super powerful in terms of their social cachet, but at
the same time they don't have a lot of power.
So it's one of those examples from history or from
human species exactly where you have somebody who is really
powerful and also not at the same time. So it's
(19:47):
an interesting combination of factors. I think this idea of
being a super powerful, super pedigreed queen at the same
time people barely remember your name in the sources, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Mean, it's terrible remember their names and now wrote the book.
But yeah, no, you're right, and I do think it's
quite representative of the whole the Middle Asian in general.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
It's a lot of posturing, isn't.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It precisely because the state is not crystallized yet. You
don't have those big administrations yet, so there's.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
It's quite fluid still, and there's quite a lot of
movements between the different social classes as well. Actually, because
it's elective, and it's not just kingshit that is elective.
You also have like all the lower ranks and low
speakers and these kind of people, local people, local things.
All of that is elective, So you do have quite
a lot of movement between these different classes and everything.
(20:40):
So yes, you could very much be a really big
thing one day and then the next you're gone. And
I think they were really acutely aware of that as well.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
One of the other things I think is unique, or
it seems unique to me, and maybe it's not, but
it seems to have been fairly unique to Sweden in
that nobody really cared if these women had had many
children or many marriages beforehand, that didn't disqualify them from queenship,
where when you see other countries at the same time,
they're like, we get this patrol happening at three years
(21:12):
old to make sure that this woman has no other
husbands right, she is reserved for this king, whereas in
your research you see that there's women who've been married
to like three different kings and they have children all
over the place. Tell us a little bit about this
and the attitudes towards women who have been widowed or
even divorced and becoming queen again.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I would say it's got a lot to do with
Christianity because all these ideas about virginity and all that.
Of course, there is a political reason for it, as
you say, we need to make sure that it's definitely
his maybe, but you also have these religious reasons for
wanting women to be pure and all that. And because
Sweden is so late in adopting these kind of new
(21:53):
codes and this new worldview, it does take quite a
while before it becomes a really important factor using a wife.
So the three year old thing, you start seeing that
in the fourteenth century, and the very last woman that
I'm talking about in the book was promised when she
was like one something like that, and by the time
she was then she had had two different fiances or whatever.
(22:16):
I don't even remember. It was disgusting, but yeah, it's
true that throughout the previous centuries it just doesn't matter
whether you've had kids. If anything, it's a good thing
because you know, it shows that you can have kids
and that you can survive childbirth, which is, you know,
actually quite a big thing. If you've had five kids,
probably you can have a six to one. And the
fact that you are older doesn't seem to be a
(22:37):
problem either, because basically they're so desperate. Let's face it,
these guys were absolutely desperate because they didn't have any
claim to anything really, and they just want women who
have experience of ruling and you know, who can actually
speak for themselves. It's quite important diplomatically and everything. So
it's actually seen it's quite a good thing if that
woman has experience. And yeah, we do have a few examples,
(22:59):
like you Healed, for example, who was married a bunch
of times to different.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Kings from different places.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
She's very much a career queen. What I call career
queen because some of them kind of fell into that
and clearly didn't really want it or didn't care. But
she's looking for it. You know, she loses the first
husband and she goes to get another one and another one,
and you know, at this point.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's a choice. She's actually choosing because.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
By the end of it, she's like forty something and
she's still looking for power and dispositions, and so it's
basically a job. And I think that's how many of
them saw it, you know, as a job. So from
that perspective, they were quite ahead of that time actually
in a way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, a certain understanding of what they bring to the table, right,
like a certain confidence in the fact that their pedigree
is worth something. They've been around Europe enough to understand
that they have this political experience that's going to be
so important, so you know, good for her to marry
I think three different kings.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, And I mean, let's face it, most of these
women who are like in their thirties and one may
have been her fifties if the sources are correct, they're
not going to get married to the up and coming
fifteen year old prince, right. They are towards the end
of their career and of their lives, generally speaking for
the Middle Ages. So it's also a way for them
(24:21):
to stay relevant and to still enjoy your very nice
lifestyle and everything. And so as I said, all these
Swedish men, many of them came from kind of obscurity like,
for example, Zverka the first not too sure where he
comes from, and he's a really big king and it
became a really big dynasty, but not too sure how
he made it. And so these guys can't possibly dream
(24:42):
of marrying an up and coming twenty year od princess
from Holstein like they wouldn't look at them, absolutely wouldn't.
So it's very beneficial for everyone. And I think that's
quite an important point here actually, that a lot of
these unions were beneficial for the women as well, at
least in the first part of the book. And once
these Swedish men have established themselves their names and their
(25:03):
dynasties and they've got power and they start having castles
and everything and lots of land, then they can start
getting peakier. And that's when you start seeing women get
younger and younger, and basically the last one, yeah, she
was a baby.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Yeah. Well.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
One of the things that I think maybe part of
this as well, is that there isn't that established tradition
of having places for women to go in that like
if you're a widowed queen and lots of other places,
you end up being an UNRII right, You end up
in a convent. But they don't have a huge number
of convents in Sweden at this moment either, so you
could pick again one, but it might be beneficial to just
(25:38):
stay out of the convent, depending on your personality and
what's available.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I mean, most of them do end up dying in
the convent, but like, really towards the end, I'm trying
to think of any example of anyone who just called
it quits really quick, but I don't think so. Yeah,
I think, you know, the convent was like really the
retirement bit the very very end, and yeah, you didn't
have many of them, so usually you just died in
the convents you had founded, basically, But yeah, I do
(26:05):
think the whole culture of staying in a nunnery and everything. Obviously,
elsewhere in Europe it had been the thing for quite
a long time. Obviously monasticism was much more developed and
had been for hundreds of years. In Sweden. Basically, you
don't really have monastic institutions until the Cistercians show.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Up in the twelfth century. It's so late.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I mean, I really do want to emphasize that it
is super late compared to the rest of Europe. We're
like four hundred years behind, which does kind of lead
to some really odd situations by contemporary standards. But yeah,
women seem to have remained very active, and we do
have examples like Hedwig of Wolstein, who seems to be
(26:45):
still active in politics or at least in the management
of her grandson's affairs or something until she dies basically,
and she dies very old actually, And that's just based
on the sources we've got surviving, and most of them
for Sweden not gone, so it could be that a
lot more of this woman were actually working behind the
scenes and we just have no idea.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Well, one of the things that I wouldn't have realized
before reading your book is that there are two royal
archives of all sorts of information and they both burned
in two different cities.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah. Yeah, it's two hundred years apart or so.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, And that's why a lot of people don't like
doing early medievals with the history, because we're kind of
always reusing the exact same sources, because you know, you
can't just invent a source that doesn't exist anymore. But
what I tragedy, I know, right, you know, Yeah, for
our listeners, that's the first fire is that today castle
(27:43):
in Stockholm that just goes up in flames with everything
in it, and then the copies in Turku in Finland,
the big fire in Turkey which kind of destroyed the city,
and yep, that's that's where we are. And that's also
why we have to rely so much on foreign sources,
things that were kept elsewhere, simple as that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Well, that's not like you're like, let's keep that archive
in Finland, it'll be safe safe they.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, I mean, I do think it's quite it's quite
a common thing for archaves to burn down. But yeah,
there was a lot of papers at once twice, so
that's why our knowledge is very patchy as well. And
I'm and don't know illusions. I don't think there's much
more to find about these queens than what I've got
in the book, because it's based on what lots of
people have done before and what I've done for like
(28:29):
a couple of years my own research. You'd be hard
pressed to find a lot of great news stuff in
Swedish sources. If there's anything else, it's going to be abroad.
And there is like a lot of potential for further
research in places like Poland, well, Ukraine, is a bit
complicated at the moment for all these reasons. But before
the war there were people starting to look into those
(28:50):
archaves as well, which have not been very well studied.
So yeah, I mean there is potential to find exciting
stuff elsewhere, but in Sweden not so much.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, one Kese example is the first example that you
have in the book. The first queen that you can
find might be several people might oh yeah, real, might
not be, so tell us about.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Saying it to Roda, which is one of the most
famous medieval queens in Sweden, because of all these really
cool stories about her and how she slapt all afterguress On,
and how she didn't care what anyone thought, and she
was burning down buildings and killing suitors because she didn't
want to be bothered, and you're talking to them, and
all of the sources we've got talking about cigarette or
(29:36):
later by at least a couple of hundred years, and
they're all contradictionary. So she must have existed, as in
obviously Eric the Victorious had a wife. We know that
he's considered the first historically accurate or a tested at
least king of Sweden. He obviously had a wife. The
sources tell us that is secred. So yeah, sure, from
(29:59):
that perspective, she existed. Now, who was she exactly? Everyone
seems to agree she was Polish. The different sources do
agree that she came from the east, that she was
related to Mishko of Poland. Now was she a daughter,
was she a sister? That is not too clear, but
it seems to be, you know, from that family. What
(30:20):
did she actually do during her life? How many people
did she actually kiell? Was she really that nasty? Hmm,
that's a bit up in the air. We do have
some fairly close sources from the early eleventh century, so
it's fairly close because she's tenth century being rather neutral
about her, you know, saying, yeah, okay, she had a
man of her own, but you know, it's not that bad.
(30:42):
It's more in the thirteenth century that she gets that
reputation of being really horrible. And obviously by that point
everyone is Christian, and obviously she was a pagan. And
you know, if you want to discredit pagan people and
pagan ideas, you're going to either emphasize the bad stuff
that people did or actually invented completely. So if you're
(31:03):
reading Hamslingler or the Sagas. You'll see lots of horrible
things about SIGRed. We don't know if it's true. We
have no evidence for it. I personally doubt that she
could go around killing kings and people like that without
any consequences. I do think someone would have eventually stopped her.
That's just my own personal opinion. But she is absolutely fantastic.
(31:25):
She's really fun to study, partly because it's so complicated
and it kind of goes in all directions and you
can really have fun with the theories, but also because
she really became a symbol of what a pagan woman is,
what a Viking woman is, even though she wasn't a
Viking per se, but you know, she's from that time period,
and she's been used as a character in novels, in poems,
(31:47):
in art. And I think she's also very fit for
the modern age because a lot of the things that
she's accused of in the sources, we would just think
it's quite normal today, you know, like being allowed to
say I know to a man, or you know, being
allowed to defend your beliefs or your religion, all these
kind of things. So funnily enough, even though she's the
(32:08):
earliest queen, she's the most relevant one I think to
today's women.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It's funny because what you're saying is that the way
that she's relevant to us is the way that she
was totally vilified by the monks writing about her, which
is funny because if they're coming up with just ideas
to make her sound bad like to us, we're like, well,
that sounds pretty good to me, and it's going totally
against what their mission was, which was to make you
(32:33):
really hate her.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Literally, that's it's quite funny, isn't it. And I do
think throughout history that's part of the reason why she's
always been so popular, because you know, people were not
that stupid, you know, they could also read through what
the monks were you know, it's not just us reading
through what the monks were writing. I think it's quite
important to remember that our ancestors also had brains and
(32:55):
they also could understand propaganda. But yeah, I know, she's
quite a fun character, and she's very enigmatic like everyone
else really at that time, and she does seem to
have been very strong, So yeah, she's a fun one.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, speaking of queens and monks, one of the things
that you mentioned that sort of in some ways consolidates
the power of these queens, is that they invite monks
and they start to found monasteries. So can you tell
us a little bit about how that developed.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
So basically throughout Europe, it's not just Sweden, you usually
have quite a strong relationship between monastic institutions and just
religious institutions in general, churches and all that, and the aristocracy.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So basically it's a.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Beneficial relationship, right the local landowners will give you land
to build your church on your monastery or whatever, and
give you protection from raiders or whatever, and in exchange
you'll get the political support from that institution from the monks.
And obviously, in fully Christinized countries until very recently, the
(34:01):
clergy had a lot of power and you know a
lot of clouds, you know, so if you are being
supported officially by that abbey or whatever, it is very prestigious.
So we start seeing that develop in the twelfth century basically,
like it starts in the very very last few years
of the eleventh century, and it seems to be a women, yeah,
(34:21):
who completely like kicks out the trend again. These are
women who come from Norway, mainly at that time, and
they have seen that happen monasticism spreading elsewhere in Europe.
They know how it works, they've witnessed it, they've witnessed
the power of having good relationships with the clergy. So
it very much seems to be yeah, like women who
(34:43):
actually brought in the monks, we've got that in the
sources revealed. In particular, was very active in that regard,
and they seem to be the one kind of serving
as a link between the lecan strong men and the
clergy and the people as well, kind of working as
intercessors in a way and smoothing relationships and everything. And
(35:03):
that made them extremely important, and that becomes a defining
feature of queenship in Sweden. Queens are expected, or you know,
noble women in general are expected to support ecclesiastical institutions.
So they usually have a favorite one, either one that
they actually found it themselves, or one that is local
(35:25):
to them, or the one where they were educated or
this kind of stuff, you know. But usually you give
them money or land or this kind of stuff which
you can't take back. By the way, it's usually not
a perpetual gift. It's kind of more of a loan.
That's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yes, we get that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
In the twelfth century, we do get a couple of
legal cases that are quite interesting where they're kind of like, hey,
remember it, we were just learning you the land and
we want it back, so.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Can you please leave? And it's like, no, we're not leaving.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
And eventually the monks had to leave and start a
new new monastery. So that is quite an important connerstone
really of the development of the Swedish state and aristocracy
and all that, and the church really does start playing
a very important role in Swedish politics from the mid
twelfth century onwards, so much that you really can't understand
(36:15):
how Sweden became a kingdom without understanding what's going on
behind the scenes with the church and the pope and
all of that. But I think that's quite That's probably
quite true of a lot of different countries. It's just
very clear in Sweden because they didn't have a native
aristocracy in the same way as other continental countries inherited
the Roman system, so the Church kind of had a
bit more room to play with because there was kind
(36:37):
of nothing, you know, when they arrived. I don't really
quite like saying that because of course, Sweden had its
own elite, its own social classes and everything, but it
was a lot less developed than elsewhere, so they had
a lot more room to navigate that landscape and kind
of you know, install themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Really, one of the things that you mentioned in the
book is that this is the perfect role for women
because they are being told that they're supposed to be
intercessors and bring things together, and so this is tailor
made and probably great for everyone where they're like, well,
she can do it, she can be our intercessor, and
then we can all keep our reputations intact, we can
(37:15):
save face if things start to.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Go so no, absolutely, And obviously there's a link here
with the idea that the virgin Mary is the middle
person between Jesus and people and between God and people.
That's an idea that really starts spreading during that period
in the Middle Ages. And I think there's that kind
of universal thing that women are not seen as threatening,
(37:38):
you know, compared to men. They're not going around with
the big sword that kind of stuff, so obviously they're
actually more approachable. They're expected to be women, or at
least maternal figures, so you know, kind of easier to
talk to, which is also why it seems to be
such a big deal when we've got a queen that
is not particularly nice, like the wife of Saint Eric, Christina,
who doesn't seem to be well per the standards of
(38:00):
the time, doesn't seem to be particularly nice person. Basically,
all she did was stand her ground and say, hey,
this is my land. I should be able to keep it.
But she seems to have been pretty horrible about it though,
in the way she went about it. And I mean
it's fair, it's fine. You know. Not all women are nice,
and no point in pretending that we're all angels. Some
of them in the book really seem to have been horrible.
(38:21):
That's fine, But that's also why it's such a big
deal when that happens, because it really flies in the
face of social expectations, like with cigarette in a way,
how dare you have an opinion and actually voice it,
you know. But yeah, no, it is a really good
role and again it's quite beneficial for them. It makes
them very important and very useful and relevant. You know,
(38:42):
it's important for women to play a role, otherwise you
end up in those situations where it's like, oh, she
can't have kids anymore, I'm just going to get her
and take another one. It's not quite the case here,
because these women nurture these relationships with these monasteries and
nunneries over their entire lifetimes. You need them as diplomatic intercessors.
(39:03):
So yeah, it is a very important role in medieval society.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, make yourself so important that you can't.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Be put aside. Literally, Yeah, it's absorry.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Well.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I was thinking about the nasty women in this book, right,
and the one that speaks to me is Marta, who
with her husband they get captured and then they take
some pretty brutal revenge later and people are like, hey,
wait a second, why is she involved in this? This
is not very maternal at all.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, both sides did really horrible things in that situation.
Don't want to spoil the book because it's kind of fun,
but yeah, it's basically like, oh, you kept mean a dungeon,
I'm going to keep in the dungeon. I'm going to
throw it with a key. And it's just that over
like the course of fifteen years, and I mean it
does have a really treading canding, but I mean these
things were happening behind the scenes. Anyway, it's all about
(39:53):
how you present, right. We know that they weren't all
super nice people, and we know they still very brittle,
but it was a big deal at the time and
in the chronicles and everything, because obviously, now you've got Christianity,
you're supposed to be gracious, you're supposed to be nice.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You're not supposed to.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Murder people, by the way, and they're just openly doing it.
And it was a very public feud with the Dukes,
between the Dukes and a king and his wife murder
and again, I think it's that kind of clash between
public image and what's actually happening, because Murtha's wedding was
all about like, oh look, I'm super nice, I'm going
to freezom prisoners and everything, and then she's just murdering
(40:32):
and plotting her way to power. Then it really ends
badly anyway. But I do think it's just about like
pr you know, it's just pr and being confronted with reality,
and reality is that it was still a very brutal time,
you know. Yeah, and religious was more of a political
tool than a I mean, I'm sure some people are
obviously believed, but we know thanks to literally the rest
(40:55):
of history until today that you know, a lot of
politics have to do. It's just And so was she
really that bad of a person? Well, you know an
if one. I she did a lot of bad stuff.
A lot of bad stuff was done to her. And
also all we know of her is through chronicles written
by friends of her enemies, so we've got to take
(41:16):
it with a pinch of salt.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
That makes a difference. Well, yeah, as we wrap up,
I need to ask you.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Do you have a favorite? Is it Sigrid?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Who's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So I have two favorites, very first and very last.
So yeah, Cigarett is amazing just because she's everyone and
nobody at the same time, so you could kind of
project so many things onto her, which is what people did.
And also she's so I mean, she's just so cool
and it's the Viking age. Everyone loves the Vikings, right,
let's fix it. No, I really do like Cigared And
(41:48):
also because you've got all that kind of dynamics with
Poland and all the rating and everything, and it's still
the time when they're like exploring Europe and everything, so
you've got that going on in the background, so it's
really nice. I do like in Gaboy, the Duchess, the
very last one because her life was quite tragic. That's
the one who was promised when she was like one,
(42:09):
and then again when she was three. And she gets
married very very young, and he's very old compared to her.
She's like twelve and he's thirty or whatever. And then
he dies quite early as well, and she ends up
a widow with two young kids at like seventeen.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It's just just really.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Horrible, and somehow she ends up being the regent for
both Norway and Sweden at seventeen.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
She's just insane and it.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Goes pretty badly as well, because obviously she's seventeen, so
she makes lots of really stupid decisions. Let's face it,
it's like canceling that for like an entire city or something.
What do you think is going to happen? Like, of
course it's going to backfire. But obviously she's got all
these people around her who are giving her conflicting advice
and trying to control her and manipult her. And what
(42:57):
is great with her as well is that because we
are about point in the fourteenth century, we actually have
a fair amount of information about her, and not just
from Swedish sources, which, as we said, kind of all
burned down, but also from Norwegian sources because of course
she was regient there as well. And you can kind
of see how that woman's life developed from being a
child when she died fairly all and all the life
(43:20):
phases and stages she went through and everything, and it's
quite tragic, but it's just so interesting. But you've got
to read the entire book to get to her life.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
It's worth it. It's worth reading the entire books to get
to her because you have so much great research in here,
and again, this is a gap that needed to be filled.
So thank you so much for writing the book so
that we can all learn from it, and thank you
for coming on the podcast and telling us all about
Sweden's royal women.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
To find out more about Caroline's work, you can check
out her profile on LinkedIn. Her new book is The
Queens and Royal Women of Sweden nine seventy two thirteen
thirty Their Lives, Power and Legacy. Before we go, here's
Peter from Medievalist dot net to tell us what's on
the website. And Peter, you're a little bit echoy today
(44:13):
for an interesting reason. Why are you a little bit
echoey today?
Speaker 4 (44:16):
Indeed? Indeed, well, one of our social media people, Onyx,
has decided to give birth to three kittens and has
decided to use the recording studio we have.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, congratulations Peter on your three new kittens.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm sure Onyx will
be back at work very soon, and we'll put the
three kittens at work too.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
You give her a decent matt leave. Come on, now,
a cat matt leave. That's how it works, right, yep, yep.
But in the meantime, you are still getting some stuff
done for the website. What's happening.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
So one of the things I like to research is
like the nitty gritty of medieval sources. And this week
we did a report on a recent study of the
Anglo Saxon Chronicle. So historian Tom License took a close
look at the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, especially between the years
ten sixty two to sixty six, this kind of an
important period. So what he found was that the chronicles
(45:11):
got edited. The versions that we have got edited kind
of selectively in the years after, and they're all done
in a way that actually would make Harold Godwinson look
better for his claim to the English throne.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Oh, that is shocking, shocking, editing history in the aftermath
of events.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Indeed, indeed, so it was a pretty cool article. It's
important to look at the silences in the chronicles, especially
this one, because they really do leave out a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
When people will have to check that one out. What
else have you got for us?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
So a new pope about to be picked. We're doing
a lot of medieval papacy stuff, and so we have
our list of the top ten antipopes.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Well, we were just talking about antipopes last week. We
were talking about Frederick Barbarosas. So I wonder if the
anti popes from that period are going to end up
on your list.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
A couple do, A couple do. So there's all plenty
of an anti pope out there.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
So having fun, excellent. And as we're recording this, everyone
is gearing up for the biggest medieval conference in North
America right indeed.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
The International Congress on Medieval Studies Kalamazoo as we call it.
And it's not too late for people to attend, especially
if you want attend. Virtually you can sign up and
I know the sessions will get recorded so that even
if you don't want to attend live, you can see
them for like the rest of the month.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yes, excellent, it's a good option. For a lot of
us who are staying home this year, we can still
attend virtually. I think both of us are going to
be doing that right.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Indeed, indeed it'd be fine.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
So for the people who are listening to this right
at the beginning of the conference, we will see you there.
And thanks for stopping by, Peter and telling us what's
on the website.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
With all the many podcasts out there on the airwaves today,
I have to say that it's especially meaningful to me
that you and I get to spend this time to
nerding out about the Middle Ages every week. It's your
support that makes this possible, So thank you for letting
those ads roll through, for sharing your favorite episodes, and
for becoming patrons on patreon dot com. This week, there
(47:13):
are over seventy open access articles representing the latest news
and medieval studies listed just for patrons, as well as
much much more. To get in on all the sweet
medieval action, please visit patreon dot com slash Medievalists for
everything from Swedes to beadfollowmievalist dot Net on Instagram at
(47:34):
medievalist net or blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find
me Danielle Sabalski across social media at five in Medievalists
or five minute Medievalist, and you can find my books
at all your favorite bookstores. Our music is Beyond the
Warriors by Geefrog. Thanks for listening and have yourself an
(47:55):
amazing day
Hi everyone, and welcome to episode two hundred and eighty
nine of the Medieval Podcast. I'm Danielle Sebolski, also known
as the five Minute Medievalist. One of the major aims
of this podcast is not just to go over the
well known and well beloved figures of medieval history, although
that is always a great time, but it's also to
bring attention to those people who have tended to be
(00:37):
on the sidelines of historical narratives that have come down
to us through the centuries. It seems to me that
the better we can understand these people and to try
to get close to their lived experiences, the better we
can understand the period as a whole. So for this episode,
we're heading to a kingdom nestled in the heart of
Scandinavia to learn about the lives of its early queens.
(00:58):
This week, I spoke with doctor Carolineville Thumpson about the
royal women of Sweden. Caroline is an assistant curator at
the Tower of London, where she works on the history
and development of the Waterloo be Barracks and the Royal
Fusilier Museum. Her medieval work focuses on the politics of
early Sweden, including her new book The Queens and Royal
Women of Sweden Zarka nine seventy two thirteen thirty Their Lives,
(01:22):
Power and Legacy. Our conversation on how a woman became
a queen in Sweden, how she exercised her power, and
how the role of queenship changed over time is coming
up right after this. Well, welcome Caroline to talk about
the royal women of Sweden. You're a trailblazer in this
(01:42):
field and I am so happy to have you on
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So In your book you mentioned that like nobody has
talked about these royal women in Sweden and either Swedish
or English. What's happening here.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What's happening is that women have traditionally been seen as
kind of secondary accessories to kingship and to male power
in general. You do see them in scholarship where they're
just like mentioned, you know, you'll get one mind, if
you're lucky, maybe a footnote, and it's usually as part
of a biography or a chapter or a bigger piece
(02:17):
about a man. It's not, you know, focusing on that
particular woman. My book was quite a bit of a
novelty in that I decided to focus on these women
and to actually dig a bit deeper into their lives,
into their biographies as far as feasible, because of course
there's quite a few of them for whom we have
no precise information, not because you know, it's so old.
(02:39):
So I did reuse a lot of existing scholarship and
existing information. It's more about compiling it in just one
place and really putting the emphasis on these women. And
I would say though that you know, I'm part of
a new generation of scholars. It's becoming more and more
common to talk about women. I mean, the book was
published as part of a series focuses on royal women
(03:02):
all over the world and throughout history. So while my
book was a first in that particular, very niche field
of Swedish queens, it is very much part of a
much bigger trend kind of all over academia.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
At the moment, yes, and before we turned on the microphones,
we were talking about this is part of the series
that Matthew Firth is part of. Some people who were
interested in that episode in January, this is part of
the same series covering royal women, and I think it's
such an important series and both of you had lots
of challenges putting together these biographies, in part because of
(03:39):
the nature of the sources and what things were like
in Sweden at the beginning of the period that you're studying.
So can you give us a sense of what it's
like for just royalty in Sweden at this time, because
it's not as easy to trace as people might think.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Right, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
The book starts in the tenth century to like bang
on the middle of the Viking Age, and so Sweden
is not really a thing yet. It's definitely not a
state that really doesn't come into play before like the
sixteenth century, or it's not in my realm. It not
my field at all. It's not a kingdom either. It's
not just one unit. It's a bunch of different petty kingdoms.
(04:20):
That's what we call. Some people used to use the
word tribes. That's that's not really a thing anymore. But
that gives you an idea of these kind of smaller
groups with the chief with a local sort of elite.
I don't want to use the word aristocracy because it's
not quite the system yet. So all of these people
kind of coexist in this context. So they do have
(04:43):
quite a lot of things in common in terms of culture,
in terms of language. You know, obviously they're using the
same weapons, they kind of have the same technology, so
you know that that will be the vikings you're thinking
of when you're watching TV or whatever, but they are
actually quite irrelated. In Sweden, you have a lot of
very dense forests, I mean still today, but it would
even worse back then. Communication routes and networks are not
(05:07):
that well developed yet, and so you don't have central
kingship like you do in other places in Europe. You
can't compare with like England or France or any of
these places, and so that makes it a bit complicated
already to kind of define what is a king, right,
so are we just talking about like a local chief
(05:27):
or are we talking about like dynasty or like, you know,
how does it work? And then obviously what is a
queen because it's even less well defined. And at that time,
warriors men usually have plenty of partners, concubines, possibly legal
wives as well, several wives. Because we don't have Christianity yet,
(05:49):
it's not in Sweden, it's not a thing yet. We've
heard of missionaries. We kind of know the concept, but
Christianity doesn't really spread in earnest before like the twelve
century something like that. It's really quite late, even compared
to Denmark and Norway. So the Vinkings obviously had lots
of contacts with the rest of Europe, so they are
aware of what is happening outside of Scannavia, how things
(06:13):
are being run, the aristocracy, all these things. They know that,
but obviously they're still kind of existing in their own
little prehistoric system, if you want to use the word
prehistoric as in pre written sources, which is how we
use it in Sweden. And so you've got a weird
mix of kind of like archaic practices and the beginning
(06:34):
of like continental customs coming in. So it's a mess basically,
as you might gather from me trying to explain this situation.
I knew when I decided to start in the tenth century.
I knew that the first part of the book was
going to be a little bit pragmatic from that perspective,
but I did want to tackle all the issue because
(06:55):
the whole point is that a lot of people have
avoided the issue because it is messy. So we've got
a massive gap in our knowledge and in scholarship for
that period because people in general kind of prefer to
deal with the twelfth century onwards because that's when we
start having really more elaborate written sources and records of
all kinds. So, yeah, what we have in terms of
(07:17):
sources for that period, so we do have plenty of
records written from outside of Sweden, so a lot of clerics,
a lot of priests, amongst you know, the kind of
the people who wrote basically at the time from Germany,
mainly writing about what they are seeing and hearing about Sweden.
Usually these people never went to Sweden, so they start
(07:40):
writing about like cyclops and stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Like that, and it's like, yeah, he definitely didn't go.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
These sources, obviously are most of the sources we've got
for that period, but they're also very interesting because they
kind of tell us how Sweden was seen from a
continental perspective and how they fit within that European context
and political context. So it is very important. But in
terms of indigen sources, we've got very few. So we've
got rainstones, which are pretty much useless when it comes
(08:09):
to queen ship because they don't really talk about queens,
very useful for talking about women, in general though, so
they're still very valuable sorts for gender studies, but I
didn't use them as much as I would have wanted
to as part of the book.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And then it's just archaeology really.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yes, So how does someone get to be a king
at this point because it's not the same sort of
linear way that people are doing this later. And then
how does someone get to be a queen? Based on
the sketchy sources that we have from the earliest time,
what does it look like GE's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
In terms of becoming a king? You get chosen, so
it's elective, and it's actually the monarchy's wooden is elective
for quite a few centuries. After that you only get
into the you know, linear succession kind of from the
fourteenth century onward. But that to me evil thing in general,
like in a lot of different countries, it's actually elective,
(09:04):
and I think a lot of people kind of forget
about that being the son of a king did not
mean that you were going to inherit the throne, you know,
those kind of things that you see in the sagas.
That's the theme that comes back quite a lot. You've
got to prove yourself you've got to prove that you
are a good leader. So you've got all these different
criteria kind of changing a little bit depending on you know,
what period we're looking at and what area. But you know,
(09:26):
you've got to be brave and you've got to be stronger.
You need to have lots of women around you to
prove that you're the best, and this kind of stuff.
In Sweden we do have quite an emphasis as well
on land ownership, but I mean it kind of feeds
into that idea that you've got to be the strongest anyway.
It's either physical or economical, but basically it's kind of
(09:47):
always the idea you need to have more resources than
your neighbor, and I mean, obviously there's a reason for
that as well, right It does mean that you can
protect your village or whatever better as.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, so we do get a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
In many cases, we're not too sure where these people
actually came from, but it usually is like long lines
off warriors, so it's kind of always the same. And
you usually have like religious connotations as well, so they're
always claiming some vague godly ancestry or trying to pull
these kind of strings just to kind of reaffirm their
claim to power. And as you progress through history though
(10:22):
and through the book, you start seeing more and more
an emphasis on politics, political power, economic power, religious power
as well. It kind of gets more and more continental
from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Basically, it follows.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
The decline of the vicinage as well, raiding and all
these things. It kind of starts getting out of fashion
in like the eleventh century or something like that. People
say ten sixty six. It's not quite true, obviously, it's
quite obviousally it keeps going for a while. But yeah,
so that's how you become a king. And then as
to how do you become a queen, well, usually you
get kidnapped. Basically, that's what we see in the sources.
(10:58):
We suppose, of course that's some So of these unions
were more peaceful, but that's not the ones you're going
to talk about in the sources, for obvious reasons. You're
going to talk about the stuff that makes you look
very strong or that makes you look very bad, like oh,
that guy, he kidnapped so many women. And it's written
by a get from Germany, so you're not actually sure whether.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
It's true or not.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But so usually women are chosen from the ranks of
your enemies because it's a way of striking an alliance. Basically, Yeah,
women are just used as diplomatic tools. Yes, absolutely, it's
great and that's usually what happens. And every time you've
got a battle, like a really big one, you'll get
another woman and this kind of you know, just carry
something like that. And we don't know how they choose
(11:37):
which one is the main wife. Probably has to do
with ancestry, you know, which one is the highest in
terms of social status, simple as that. I would like
to think that sometimes they didn't really fall in love,
but I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So, yes, I'm with you there, like you're hoping. You're
hoping that it's not all grim and tragic, but it's
not like a gad. But you're mentioning in the book
that you can have several wives as you're saying, or
concubines or however we want to define this, which is
very difficult to do at this moment. And there isn't
a hierarchy in terms of their children except ye possibly
(12:16):
possibly and maybe later. This has to do with the
religious wedding or social status. But this is not quite unique,
but it is special to Sweden and that there doesn't
seem to be the same type of hierarchy as there
is in other cultures that have this many concubines and wives.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, that is very interesting. It are
people that have been talking to kind of spontaneously. Compare
with China, for example, that is like so stratified with
that concubine that is kind of the head of that
household and that one is doing this. You don't seem
to have that in Sweden, at least it doesn't appear
in the sources. And it very much looks like if
(12:53):
you are a child of a chief, then that's it.
We're one of his kids, and then you know, you
kind of have the same rights as everybody else. It's
true that it is very much linked to what we
define as a union as well, because in the twelfth
century and for most of the eleventh century, we don't
have any evidence that they actually got married as in
(13:14):
what marriage is in canon law, like you know, the
kind of religious Christian marriage. It's not really a thing.
And I mean that's not unique to Sweden. We've got
the same in Anglo Saxon, England. You know, they do
have their own systems of unions, but we're not too
sure how that worked, so it could very well be
that all these different unions were seen as equal. And
then when it comes to choosing like your favorite son
(13:36):
or whatever, it might be like, well, your mom was
of higher status, or your mom was cleverer, or you know,
this kind of criteria. But it's not set in stone,
definitely not, which makes it very messy then, because so
many things can happens, so many things, so many combinations,
and that's what we see throughout the early medieval period
really brothers in fighting. I mean, that's that's quite common everywhere,
(13:59):
to be honest, because everyone could really hope to become
the next leader. It does well, you do, adopting situations
all fairly unique, and Sweden, being so late in adopting
Christianity and continental standards compared to the rest of Northern
Europe is quite unique in that regard. Then we actually
(14:20):
have sources, you know, talking about these systems of kinship
and everything, so it's quite quite an interesting situation really.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
And when time starts to pass and Sweden starts to
adopt Christianity more broadly, and there starts to be like
weddings in the legal science, the can in law sense
like you're talking about. They are still reaching across to
other places. So maybe not kidnapping as much, even though
that still seems to be a thing, but reaching out
to other countries to find queens. And one of the
(14:52):
things that you mentioned in the book is like this
foreignness is almost legitimizing in itself, right, can you tell
us about how that works?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So there is research being done on this, not by me,
so it's a very exciting field of study. Yeah, you
always have that idea that having a foreign queen is
actually a very good thing.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So when you.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Look at like the tenth century, it seems to be
more of a religious thing. I mean, obviously all these
places were far away with hard to reach you know,
like of course the Vikings were very good sailors and everything,
but it was still a trick to go to Poland
or Russia or whatever, And there was that having a
woman from such a far away place kind of gave
(15:31):
a bit of a godly character to someone. Basically it's like,
oh what a lad, but like ten times and obviously
these people look a little bit different. They speak a
language that is something I'm not talking at all about
in the book, because you know, there is a word limit.
But these women come back, they're not dressed exactly the same,
they look a bit different, they speak a different language.
It's impressive to these people who actually believe in the
(15:53):
gods and everything. It's quite something. So it seems that
we've got some mythological ideas and concepts kind of getting
mixed into the reality there. And it's also a way
for the king to kind of keep a distance with
his subjects by not choosing someone who's two clothes. It's like,
I'm a little bit different, we are different, We're not
(16:14):
quite like you. And that's actually something that you get
with the aristocracy later on, you know, kind of keeping
it within the cast. So that's for the tenth century
then later on. So most of the queens in that
book are actually foreign queens, which is maybe not that
unique in terms of if you look at Europe in general,
but it's quite pronounced in Sweden still because it really
(16:36):
is most of them, and that is for political reasons
and diplomatic reasons and economic ones. Because Sweden was so
far behind in terms of things like their agricultural system
of these kind of things. They were really quite late,
partly because they were kind of far away from everyone
and because of the climate.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And all these things.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know, So marrying women from these countries which are
much more developed is a great thing because then you
can basically just appropriate their wealth and their success and
their pedigrees and all of that. So it is prestigious
and it's kind of a way of saying, hey, look,
I am very much part of Europe and European aristocracy.
(17:13):
You know, we're popular abroad and this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, it's interesting because it is a bit of a
contrast to the rest of Europe, where sometimes foreign queens
they're not looked at as being all that worthy because
they're different. Like there's more of a xenophobic aspect to
the people are looking at these queens. And in Sweden,
at least the examples that you have here, it's more
like this is a great status symbol to have a
(17:37):
queen from somewhere else, and so that is something special
to Sweden, it seems.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Absolutely, I mean, if you're looking at queens at the
same time, like in Front and in England, many of
them were properly bullied and rejected by the subjects because
they're precisely not from here, and we're being led and
ruled by someone who's not even from here, whereas in
Sweden it's completely different because these Swedish leaders, the male leaders,
(18:04):
are kind of like it's a nascent aristocracy. They don't
really have big names in their family lines or anything,
you know. They literally just look on guys who manage
to get power, and they need these women to kind
of justify their being in power and legitimize their line.
But that in turn gives a lot of power to
these women because then they know that without them, the
(18:28):
guys can't do anything. And I think that's the theme
that kind of runs through the entire book really, that
quite a lot of these women actually had a lot
of power without doing anything by virtue of having a
big name. It's quite obvious, especially when you get to
the cirteenth century with you know, all these women who
come from Holstein for example, or Megaberg, which are really big,
(18:50):
powerful dynasties at the time. You don't mess with them,
you know. And if you're married to a daughter of Allstein,
you've got to stay.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
In your line.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Is her daddy is much more powerful than the whole
Sweden combined and you don't want to anger him. And
I do think Daddy is quite unique to Sweden, and
also because the legal system supports it as well. The
legal system in Sweden is quite generous towards women, especially
if you compare with Norway, which is right next door,
and it's a completely different ballgame. Different factors just lead
(19:22):
to Swedish women just having more power in general.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
It's one of those strange situations. But the example that
popped into my head is Roman gladiators, right where they're
super powerful in terms of their social cachet, but at
the same time they don't have a lot of power.
So it's one of those examples from history or from
human species exactly where you have somebody who is really
powerful and also not at the same time. So it's
(19:47):
an interesting combination of factors. I think this idea of
being a super powerful, super pedigreed queen at the same
time people barely remember your name in the sources, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Mean, it's terrible remember their names and now wrote the book.
But yeah, no, you're right, and I do think it's
quite representative of the whole the Middle Asian in general.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
It's a lot of posturing, isn't.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It precisely because the state is not crystallized yet. You
don't have those big administrations yet, so there's.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
It's quite fluid still, and there's quite a lot of
movements between the different social classes as well. Actually, because
it's elective, and it's not just kingshit that is elective.
You also have like all the lower ranks and low
speakers and these kind of people, local people, local things.
All of that is elective, So you do have quite
a lot of movement between these different classes and everything.
(20:40):
So yes, you could very much be a really big
thing one day and then the next you're gone. And
I think they were really acutely aware of that as well.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
One of the other things I think is unique, or
it seems unique to me, and maybe it's not, but
it seems to have been fairly unique to Sweden in
that nobody really cared if these women had had many
children or many marriages beforehand, that didn't disqualify them from queenship,
where when you see other countries at the same time,
they're like, we get this patrol happening at three years
(21:12):
old to make sure that this woman has no other
husbands right, she is reserved for this king, whereas in
your research you see that there's women who've been married
to like three different kings and they have children all
over the place. Tell us a little bit about this
and the attitudes towards women who have been widowed or
even divorced and becoming queen again.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I would say it's got a lot to do with
Christianity because all these ideas about virginity and all that.
Of course, there is a political reason for it, as
you say, we need to make sure that it's definitely
his maybe, but you also have these religious reasons for
wanting women to be pure and all that. And because
Sweden is so late in adopting these kind of new
(21:53):
codes and this new worldview, it does take quite a
while before it becomes a really important factor using a wife.
So the three year old thing, you start seeing that
in the fourteenth century, and the very last woman that
I'm talking about in the book was promised when she
was like one something like that, and by the time
she was then she had had two different fiances or whatever.
(22:16):
I don't even remember. It was disgusting, but yeah, it's
true that throughout the previous centuries it just doesn't matter
whether you've had kids. If anything, it's a good thing
because you know, it shows that you can have kids
and that you can survive childbirth, which is, you know,
actually quite a big thing. If you've had five kids,
probably you can have a six to one. And the
fact that you are older doesn't seem to be a
(22:37):
problem either, because basically they're so desperate. Let's face it,
these guys were absolutely desperate because they didn't have any
claim to anything really, and they just want women who
have experience of ruling and you know, who can actually
speak for themselves. It's quite important diplomatically and everything. So
it's actually seen it's quite a good thing if that
woman has experience. And yeah, we do have a few examples,
(22:59):
like you Healed, for example, who was married a bunch
of times to different.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Kings from different places.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
She's very much a career queen. What I call career
queen because some of them kind of fell into that
and clearly didn't really want it or didn't care. But
she's looking for it. You know, she loses the first
husband and she goes to get another one and another one,
and you know, at this point.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's a choice. She's actually choosing because.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
By the end of it, she's like forty something and
she's still looking for power and dispositions, and so it's
basically a job. And I think that's how many of
them saw it, you know, as a job. So from
that perspective, they were quite ahead of that time actually
in a way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, a certain understanding of what they bring to the table, right,
like a certain confidence in the fact that their pedigree
is worth something. They've been around Europe enough to understand
that they have this political experience that's going to be
so important, so you know, good for her to marry
I think three different kings.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, And I mean, let's face it, most of these
women who are like in their thirties and one may
have been her fifties if the sources are correct, they're
not going to get married to the up and coming
fifteen year old prince, right. They are towards the end
of their career and of their lives, generally speaking for
the Middle Ages. So it's also a way for them
(24:21):
to stay relevant and to still enjoy your very nice
lifestyle and everything. And so as I said, all these
Swedish men, many of them came from kind of obscurity like,
for example, Zverka the first not too sure where he
comes from, and he's a really big king and it
became a really big dynasty, but not too sure how
he made it. And so these guys can't possibly dream
(24:42):
of marrying an up and coming twenty year od princess
from Holstein like they wouldn't look at them, absolutely wouldn't.
So it's very beneficial for everyone. And I think that's
quite an important point here actually, that a lot of
these unions were beneficial for the women as well, at
least in the first part of the book. And once
these Swedish men have established themselves their names and their
(25:03):
dynasties and they've got power and they start having castles
and everything and lots of land, then they can start
getting peakier. And that's when you start seeing women get
younger and younger, and basically the last one, yeah, she
was a baby.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Yeah. Well.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
One of the things that I think maybe part of
this as well, is that there isn't that established tradition
of having places for women to go in that like
if you're a widowed queen and lots of other places,
you end up being an UNRII right, You end up
in a convent. But they don't have a huge number
of convents in Sweden at this moment either, so you
could pick again one, but it might be beneficial to just
(25:38):
stay out of the convent, depending on your personality and
what's available.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I mean, most of them do end up dying in
the convent, but like, really towards the end, I'm trying
to think of any example of anyone who just called
it quits really quick, but I don't think so. Yeah,
I think, you know, the convent was like really the
retirement bit the very very end, and yeah, you didn't
have many of them, so usually you just died in
the convents you had founded, basically, But yeah, I do
(26:05):
think the whole culture of staying in a nunnery and everything. Obviously,
elsewhere in Europe it had been the thing for quite
a long time. Obviously monasticism was much more developed and
had been for hundreds of years. In Sweden. Basically, you
don't really have monastic institutions until the Cistercians show.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Up in the twelfth century. It's so late.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I mean, I really do want to emphasize that it
is super late compared to the rest of Europe. We're
like four hundred years behind, which does kind of lead
to some really odd situations by contemporary standards. But yeah,
women seem to have remained very active, and we do
have examples like Hedwig of Wolstein, who seems to be
(26:45):
still active in politics or at least in the management
of her grandson's affairs or something until she dies basically,
and she dies very old actually, And that's just based
on the sources we've got surviving, and most of them
for Sweden not gone, so it could be that a
lot more of this woman were actually working behind the
scenes and we just have no idea.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Well, one of the things that I wouldn't have realized
before reading your book is that there are two royal
archives of all sorts of information and they both burned
in two different cities.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah. Yeah, it's two hundred years apart or so.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, And that's why a lot of people don't like
doing early medievals with the history, because we're kind of
always reusing the exact same sources, because you know, you
can't just invent a source that doesn't exist anymore. But
what I tragedy, I know, right, you know, Yeah, for
our listeners, that's the first fire is that today castle
(27:43):
in Stockholm that just goes up in flames with everything
in it, and then the copies in Turku in Finland,
the big fire in Turkey which kind of destroyed the city,
and yep, that's that's where we are. And that's also
why we have to rely so much on foreign sources,
things that were kept elsewhere, simple as that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Well, that's not like you're like, let's keep that archive
in Finland, it'll be safe safe they.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, I mean, I do think it's quite it's quite
a common thing for archaves to burn down. But yeah,
there was a lot of papers at once twice, so
that's why our knowledge is very patchy as well. And
I'm and don't know illusions. I don't think there's much
more to find about these queens than what I've got
in the book, because it's based on what lots of
people have done before and what I've done for like
(28:29):
a couple of years my own research. You'd be hard
pressed to find a lot of great news stuff in
Swedish sources. If there's anything else, it's going to be abroad.
And there is like a lot of potential for further
research in places like Poland, well, Ukraine, is a bit
complicated at the moment for all these reasons. But before
the war there were people starting to look into those
(28:50):
archaves as well, which have not been very well studied.
So yeah, I mean there is potential to find exciting
stuff elsewhere, but in Sweden not so much.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, one Kese example is the first example that you
have in the book. The first queen that you can
find might be several people might oh yeah, real, might
not be, so tell us about.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Saying it to Roda, which is one of the most
famous medieval queens in Sweden, because of all these really
cool stories about her and how she slapt all afterguress On,
and how she didn't care what anyone thought, and she
was burning down buildings and killing suitors because she didn't
want to be bothered, and you're talking to them, and
all of the sources we've got talking about cigarette or
(29:36):
later by at least a couple of hundred years, and
they're all contradictionary. So she must have existed, as in
obviously Eric the Victorious had a wife. We know that
he's considered the first historically accurate or a tested at
least king of Sweden. He obviously had a wife. The
sources tell us that is secred. So yeah, sure, from
(29:59):
that perspective, she existed. Now, who was she exactly? Everyone
seems to agree she was Polish. The different sources do
agree that she came from the east, that she was
related to Mishko of Poland. Now was she a daughter,
was she a sister? That is not too clear, but
it seems to be, you know, from that family. What
(30:20):
did she actually do during her life? How many people
did she actually kiell? Was she really that nasty? Hmm,
that's a bit up in the air. We do have
some fairly close sources from the early eleventh century, so
it's fairly close because she's tenth century being rather neutral
about her, you know, saying, yeah, okay, she had a
man of her own, but you know, it's not that bad.
(30:42):
It's more in the thirteenth century that she gets that
reputation of being really horrible. And obviously by that point
everyone is Christian, and obviously she was a pagan. And
you know, if you want to discredit pagan people and
pagan ideas, you're going to either emphasize the bad stuff
that people did or actually invented completely. So if you're
(31:03):
reading Hamslingler or the Sagas. You'll see lots of horrible
things about SIGRed. We don't know if it's true. We
have no evidence for it. I personally doubt that she
could go around killing kings and people like that without
any consequences. I do think someone would have eventually stopped her.
That's just my own personal opinion. But she is absolutely fantastic.
(31:25):
She's really fun to study, partly because it's so complicated
and it kind of goes in all directions and you
can really have fun with the theories, but also because
she really became a symbol of what a pagan woman is,
what a Viking woman is, even though she wasn't a
Viking per se, but you know, she's from that time period,
and she's been used as a character in novels, in poems,
(31:47):
in art. And I think she's also very fit for
the modern age because a lot of the things that
she's accused of in the sources, we would just think
it's quite normal today, you know, like being allowed to
say I know to a man, or you know, being
allowed to defend your beliefs or your religion, all these
kind of things. So funnily enough, even though she's the
(32:08):
earliest queen, she's the most relevant one I think to
today's women.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It's funny because what you're saying is that the way
that she's relevant to us is the way that she
was totally vilified by the monks writing about her, which
is funny because if they're coming up with just ideas
to make her sound bad like to us, we're like, well,
that sounds pretty good to me, and it's going totally
against what their mission was, which was to make you
(32:33):
really hate her.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Literally, that's it's quite funny, isn't it. And I do
think throughout history that's part of the reason why she's
always been so popular, because you know, people were not
that stupid, you know, they could also read through what
the monks were you know, it's not just us reading
through what the monks were writing. I think it's quite
important to remember that our ancestors also had brains and
(32:55):
they also could understand propaganda. But yeah, I know, she's
quite a fun character, and she's very enigmatic like everyone
else really at that time, and she does seem to
have been very strong, So yeah, she's a fun one.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, speaking of queens and monks, one of the things
that you mentioned that sort of in some ways consolidates
the power of these queens, is that they invite monks
and they start to found monasteries. So can you tell
us a little bit about how that developed.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
So basically throughout Europe, it's not just Sweden, you usually
have quite a strong relationship between monastic institutions and just
religious institutions in general, churches and all that, and the aristocracy.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So basically it's a.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Beneficial relationship, right the local landowners will give you land
to build your church on your monastery or whatever, and
give you protection from raiders or whatever, and in exchange
you'll get the political support from that institution from the monks.
And obviously, in fully Christinized countries until very recently, the
(34:01):
clergy had a lot of power and you know a
lot of clouds, you know, so if you are being
supported officially by that abbey or whatever, it is very prestigious.
So we start seeing that develop in the twelfth century basically,
like it starts in the very very last few years
of the eleventh century, and it seems to be a women, yeah,
(34:21):
who completely like kicks out the trend again. These are
women who come from Norway, mainly at that time, and
they have seen that happen monasticism spreading elsewhere in Europe.
They know how it works, they've witnessed it, they've witnessed
the power of having good relationships with the clergy. So
it very much seems to be yeah, like women who
(34:43):
actually brought in the monks, we've got that in the
sources revealed. In particular, was very active in that regard,
and they seem to be the one kind of serving
as a link between the lecan strong men and the
clergy and the people as well, kind of working as
intercessors in a way and smoothing relationships and everything. And
(35:03):
that made them extremely important, and that becomes a defining
feature of queenship in Sweden. Queens are expected, or you know,
noble women in general are expected to support ecclesiastical institutions.
So they usually have a favorite one, either one that
they actually found it themselves, or one that is local
(35:25):
to them, or the one where they were educated or
this kind of stuff, you know. But usually you give
them money or land or this kind of stuff which
you can't take back. By the way, it's usually not
a perpetual gift. It's kind of more of a loan.
That's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yes, we get that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
In the twelfth century, we do get a couple of
legal cases that are quite interesting where they're kind of like, hey,
remember it, we were just learning you the land and
we want it back, so.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Can you please leave? And it's like, no, we're not leaving.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
And eventually the monks had to leave and start a
new new monastery. So that is quite an important connerstone
really of the development of the Swedish state and aristocracy
and all that, and the church really does start playing
a very important role in Swedish politics from the mid
twelfth century onwards, so much that you really can't understand
(36:15):
how Sweden became a kingdom without understanding what's going on
behind the scenes with the church and the pope and
all of that. But I think that's quite That's probably
quite true of a lot of different countries. It's just
very clear in Sweden because they didn't have a native
aristocracy in the same way as other continental countries inherited
the Roman system, so the Church kind of had a
bit more room to play with because there was kind
(36:37):
of nothing, you know, when they arrived. I don't really
quite like saying that because of course, Sweden had its
own elite, its own social classes and everything, but it
was a lot less developed than elsewhere, so they had
a lot more room to navigate that landscape and kind
of you know, install themselves.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Really, one of the things that you mentioned in the
book is that this is the perfect role for women
because they are being told that they're supposed to be
intercessors and bring things together, and so this is tailor
made and probably great for everyone where they're like, well,
she can do it, she can be our intercessor, and
then we can all keep our reputations intact, we can
(37:15):
save face if things start to.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Go so no, absolutely, And obviously there's a link here
with the idea that the virgin Mary is the middle
person between Jesus and people and between God and people.
That's an idea that really starts spreading during that period
in the Middle Ages. And I think there's that kind
of universal thing that women are not seen as threatening,
(37:38):
you know, compared to men. They're not going around with
the big sword that kind of stuff, so obviously they're
actually more approachable. They're expected to be women, or at
least maternal figures, so you know, kind of easier to
talk to, which is also why it seems to be
such a big deal when we've got a queen that
is not particularly nice, like the wife of Saint Eric, Christina,
who doesn't seem to be well per the standards of
(38:00):
the time, doesn't seem to be particularly nice person. Basically,
all she did was stand her ground and say, hey,
this is my land. I should be able to keep it.
But she seems to have been pretty horrible about it though,
in the way she went about it. And I mean
it's fair, it's fine. You know. Not all women are nice,
and no point in pretending that we're all angels. Some
of them in the book really seem to have been horrible.
(38:21):
That's fine, But that's also why it's such a big
deal when that happens, because it really flies in the
face of social expectations, like with cigarette in a way,
how dare you have an opinion and actually voice it,
you know. But yeah, no, it is a really good
role and again it's quite beneficial for them. It makes
them very important and very useful and relevant. You know,
(38:42):
it's important for women to play a role, otherwise you
end up in those situations where it's like, oh, she
can't have kids anymore, I'm just going to get her
and take another one. It's not quite the case here,
because these women nurture these relationships with these monasteries and
nunneries over their entire lifetimes. You need them as diplomatic intercessors.
(39:03):
So yeah, it is a very important role in medieval society.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, make yourself so important that you can't.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Be put aside. Literally, Yeah, it's absorry.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Well.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I was thinking about the nasty women in this book, right,
and the one that speaks to me is Marta, who
with her husband they get captured and then they take
some pretty brutal revenge later and people are like, hey,
wait a second, why is she involved in this? This
is not very maternal at all.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, both sides did really horrible things in that situation.
Don't want to spoil the book because it's kind of fun,
but yeah, it's basically like, oh, you kept mean a dungeon,
I'm going to keep in the dungeon. I'm going to
throw it with a key. And it's just that over
like the course of fifteen years, and I mean it
does have a really treading canding, but I mean these
things were happening behind the scenes. Anyway, it's all about
(39:53):
how you present, right. We know that they weren't all
super nice people, and we know they still very brittle,
but it was a big deal at the time and
in the chronicles and everything, because obviously, now you've got Christianity,
you're supposed to be gracious, you're supposed to be nice.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You're not supposed to.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Murder people, by the way, and they're just openly doing it.
And it was a very public feud with the Dukes,
between the Dukes and a king and his wife murder
and again, I think it's that kind of clash between
public image and what's actually happening, because Murtha's wedding was
all about like, oh look, I'm super nice, I'm going
to freezom prisoners and everything, and then she's just murdering
(40:32):
and plotting her way to power. Then it really ends
badly anyway. But I do think it's just about like
pr you know, it's just pr and being confronted with reality,
and reality is that it was still a very brutal time,
you know. Yeah, and religious was more of a political
tool than a I mean, I'm sure some people are
obviously believed, but we know thanks to literally the rest
(40:55):
of history until today that you know, a lot of
politics have to do. It's just And so was she
really that bad of a person? Well, you know an
if one. I she did a lot of bad stuff.
A lot of bad stuff was done to her. And
also all we know of her is through chronicles written
by friends of her enemies, so we've got to take
(41:16):
it with a pinch of salt.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
That makes a difference. Well, yeah, as we wrap up,
I need to ask you.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Do you have a favorite? Is it Sigrid?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Who's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So I have two favorites, very first and very last.
So yeah, Cigarett is amazing just because she's everyone and
nobody at the same time, so you could kind of
project so many things onto her, which is what people did.
And also she's so I mean, she's just so cool
and it's the Viking age. Everyone loves the Vikings, right,
let's fix it. No, I really do like Cigared And
(41:48):
also because you've got all that kind of dynamics with
Poland and all the rating and everything, and it's still
the time when they're like exploring Europe and everything, so
you've got that going on in the background, so it's
really nice. I do like in Gaboy, the Duchess, the
very last one because her life was quite tragic. That's
the one who was promised when she was like one,
(42:09):
and then again when she was three. And she gets
married very very young, and he's very old compared to her.
She's like twelve and he's thirty or whatever. And then
he dies quite early as well, and she ends up
a widow with two young kids at like seventeen.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It's just just really.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Horrible, and somehow she ends up being the regent for
both Norway and Sweden at seventeen.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
She's just insane and it.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Goes pretty badly as well, because obviously she's seventeen, so
she makes lots of really stupid decisions. Let's face it,
it's like canceling that for like an entire city or something.
What do you think is going to happen? Like, of
course it's going to backfire. But obviously she's got all
these people around her who are giving her conflicting advice
and trying to control her and manipult her. And what
(42:57):
is great with her as well is that because we
are about point in the fourteenth century, we actually have
a fair amount of information about her, and not just
from Swedish sources, which, as we said, kind of all
burned down, but also from Norwegian sources because of course
she was regient there as well. And you can kind
of see how that woman's life developed from being a
child when she died fairly all and all the life
(43:20):
phases and stages she went through and everything, and it's
quite tragic, but it's just so interesting. But you've got
to read the entire book to get to her life.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
It's worth it. It's worth reading the entire books to get
to her because you have so much great research in here,
and again, this is a gap that needed to be filled.
So thank you so much for writing the book so
that we can all learn from it, and thank you
for coming on the podcast and telling us all about
Sweden's royal women.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
To find out more about Caroline's work, you can check
out her profile on LinkedIn. Her new book is The
Queens and Royal Women of Sweden nine seventy two thirteen
thirty Their Lives, Power and Legacy. Before we go, here's
Peter from Medievalist dot net to tell us what's on
the website. And Peter, you're a little bit echoy today
(44:13):
for an interesting reason. Why are you a little bit
echoey today?
Speaker 4 (44:16):
Indeed? Indeed, well, one of our social media people, Onyx,
has decided to give birth to three kittens and has
decided to use the recording studio we have.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, congratulations Peter on your three new kittens.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm sure Onyx will
be back at work very soon, and we'll put the
three kittens at work too.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
You give her a decent matt leave. Come on, now,
a cat matt leave. That's how it works, right, yep, yep.
But in the meantime, you are still getting some stuff
done for the website. What's happening.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
So one of the things I like to research is
like the nitty gritty of medieval sources. And this week
we did a report on a recent study of the
Anglo Saxon Chronicle. So historian Tom License took a close
look at the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, especially between the years
ten sixty two to sixty six, this kind of an
important period. So what he found was that the chronicles
(45:11):
got edited. The versions that we have got edited kind
of selectively in the years after, and they're all done
in a way that actually would make Harold Godwinson look
better for his claim to the English throne.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Oh, that is shocking, shocking, editing history in the aftermath
of events.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Indeed, indeed, so it was a pretty cool article. It's
important to look at the silences in the chronicles, especially
this one, because they really do leave out a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
When people will have to check that one out. What
else have you got for us?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
So a new pope about to be picked. We're doing
a lot of medieval papacy stuff, and so we have
our list of the top ten antipopes.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Well, we were just talking about antipopes last week. We
were talking about Frederick Barbarosas. So I wonder if the
anti popes from that period are going to end up
on your list.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
A couple do, A couple do. So there's all plenty
of an anti pope out there.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
So having fun, excellent. And as we're recording this, everyone
is gearing up for the biggest medieval conference in North
America right indeed.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
The International Congress on Medieval Studies Kalamazoo as we call it.
And it's not too late for people to attend, especially
if you want attend. Virtually you can sign up and
I know the sessions will get recorded so that even
if you don't want to attend live, you can see
them for like the rest of the month.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yes, excellent, it's a good option. For a lot of
us who are staying home this year, we can still
attend virtually. I think both of us are going to
be doing that right.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Indeed, indeed it'd be fine.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
So for the people who are listening to this right
at the beginning of the conference, we will see you there.
And thanks for stopping by, Peter and telling us what's
on the website.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
With all the many podcasts out there on the airwaves today,
I have to say that it's especially meaningful to me
that you and I get to spend this time to
nerding out about the Middle Ages every week. It's your
support that makes this possible, So thank you for letting
those ads roll through, for sharing your favorite episodes, and
for becoming patrons on patreon dot com. This week, there
(47:13):
are over seventy open access articles representing the latest news
and medieval studies listed just for patrons, as well as
much much more. To get in on all the sweet
medieval action, please visit patreon dot com slash Medievalists for
everything from Swedes to beadfollowmievalist dot Net on Instagram at
(47:34):
medievalist net or blue Sky at Medievalists. You can find
me Danielle Sabalski across social media at five in Medievalists
or five minute Medievalist, and you can find my books
at all your favorite bookstores. Our music is Beyond the
Warriors by Geefrog. Thanks for listening and have yourself an
(47:55):
amazing day
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