April 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free
In this episode, we’re speaking with Beth Klein, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and LIMB Academy grad based in Minnesota. Beth specializes working with high-achieving women who struggle with imposter syndrome, social anxiety, and relationship boundaries.
Beth gets candid about her journey from insurance panel burnout to a thriving premium private pay practice. She shares how she went from seeing up to eight clients a day, working weekends, drowning in paperwork, and feeling isolated—to charging $250 per session, seeing ten clients a week, and maintaining a schedule that actually supports her life.
If you’re feeling burnt out, undervalued, or unsure how to make the shift to private pay, Beth’s experience will give you real-life inspiration and tactical strategies for your own journey.
In this episode, Beth shares:
How she went from seeing 6-8 clients per day and working on weekends to “catch up” to seeing 10 clients per week;
The marketing strategies that actually worked (and the ones she ditched) when it comes to filling her practice with premium fee clients;
The biggest internal blocks she had to overcome to confidently charge premium fees (and how she found a new narrative);
How being part of the LIMB community consistently allowed her to make changes over the long haul;
Three pieces of strategic advice Beth has for any therapist who feels like they’re drowning in the insurance whirlpool and dreams of finding a way out;
How her relationships, health, and personal life have transformed now that she’s no longer overworking for low fees.
Resources mentioned:
More about Beth:
Beth Klein, MS, LMFT is a marriage and family therapist licensed in Minnesota and Wisconsin with a prior career in business. She helps high achieving women create a balanced and rewarding life by tackling their relationship, anxiety, boundary, and perfectionism issues.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Intro (00:05):
(00:01):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people.
You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself.
This is ridiculous. Completely broke, man. If people knew who they were, do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(00:47):
There we go, folks. I'm so happy to be here with Beth. Beth, I know. Well, Beth has been a long time in the making to get you on this podcast. I'm so glad you're funny here. Start please by telling folks a little bit about your practice as it now stands. Where are you located? Who do you work with?
Beth(01:05):
All right. Well, I am in, I have a solo practice in St. Paul, Minnesota, and it's called Firefly Counseling. And I do in, in person and virtual sessions. And I work with high achieving women who wanna break through what's holding them back. Usually it's, usually it's imposter syndrome, social anxiety relationship boundaries, things like that. So I work with mostly anxiety relationships and yeah. It's so fun.
Tiffany(01:41):
So fun. And Beth, Beth has, well, we'll get into it. We'll get into it. Okay. Beth is phenomenal. That's what I'm trying to say. I love this. Okay. what we're gonna talk about today is your journey in over time getting off all insurance panels, raising your rates, setting a schedule that actually works for you. How does that sound?
Beth(02:02):
That sounds great.
Tiffany(02:04):
Okay. So take us back to the, take us back to the insurance panel days. When was that? What was your practice like? Just describe a day in the life of Beth back then.
Beth(02:18):
All right, well, I moved to Minneapolis from Milwaukee in 2018 and I started a practice, got on all insurance panels and I got going pretty quickly. But I, so, so I would take insurance and I would take, gosh, up to six to eight clients a day. So up to eight clients a day, I'd have a half hour or an hour break in between. I'd go Monday through Friday. Friday mornings I'd do four clients only, but the rest of the days I'd do as many as I could. If I could get to eight, that would be great. And that's because I wanted to make, you know, a hundred thousand dollars a year. And so I, yeah. And so what, what ended up happening is I would work every day. I'd, I'd take all those clients, wouldn't do my paperwork 'cause I can't do my paperwork that quick.
Beth(03:10):
And so on the weekends I would do paperwork, billing, and I, I would work eight hours Saturday and Sunday I just kind of go to a coffee shop and I just work and, I would work in the mornings before, before I started taking clients. And so I really didn't do have much of a social life. I didn't exercise hardly at all. You know, the only people I really talked to were my socially, were my friends, really good friends, and my spouse. And, and that was my life because I had this goal that I just needed to make that kind of money. I had, I had switched careers from business and I had made good money there. And so I was just found, determined to do the same
Tiffany(03:57):
. So I'm, I I've noticed that you said you didn't have time for relationships outside of your closest friends and your spouse. And I'm like, I dunno how you're working eight hours a day Monday through Friday and eight hours on the weekend and before that and you have time for friends or spouse. I'm like, no, how you even surviving? Yeah. Okay. So you have this life, you're going at it. How long did you, how long were you doing this?
Beth(04:19):
I did that through the pandemic well through 2021. Okay. I joined Limb in 2021 in May. May or yeah, may. And yeah. And so I joined LI because I wanted to go cash pay and I'd heard about li from someone else. And I thought I needed, I needed an answer. I needed, I was getting burnt out. I was starting to get resentful, all the signs of burnout. Let's, let's cool back. Let's,
(00:22):
Tiffany(04:53):
Let's double click on that. As my partner in tech likes to say, double click on that. So you're, you're doing these eight hour, six to eight hour client days Monday through Friday, four on Friday. 'cause You're giving yourself a little break notes on the weekends. What were like three signs that this was no longer working? 'cause It was working, you were hitting your a hundred thousand dollars. What stopped working about this?
Beth(05:19):
Well, one thing that stopped working is I could, I was fell very behind on paperwork. As a matter of fact. I practically had to give up paperwork, like progress notes. And I felt guilty that I was in, afraid that I was gonna get audited. And I, you know, I kept trying to get caught up on paperwork. But I just could never do it. And I also had, you know, my, I became lonely and felt like life was just not fulfilling. Like, this is all, it is kind of a feeling. How did you
Tiffany(05:52):
On that, how did you know, like what did loneliness feel like for you in those days?
Beth(06:00):
Well, I started to actually get afraid of reaching out to people that I hadn't been, except for those best friends. Right. I, there were people that I really had neglected, like my certain family members and stuff. And I just kind of started to get a little bit kind of anxious about reaching out. 'cause I'm like, oh, they don't even, you know, know me or, you know, things like that. I did, you know, when you're a therapist, your clients keep you from being lonely to some degree because Yeah, right. They're they're a relationship, but it's one sided. And so it's not, you know, it's not fun too. It's not like, you know, having a lot of fun with someone. It's, it's meaningful, but you also don't get your needs met with that person. And then I just, I guess the another thing was the self care and the health. I just was, had gained weight and I was not in good shape. And at my age, I, I'm, you know, I need to stay in shape, good shape in order to keep doing the things I wanna do. So it takes its toll. So, yeah.
Tiffany(07:05):
When did you, when did you notice even physically, like I, I was sick last week and I didn't work out at all. And I'm noticing my right hip is like aching. So what were
Beth(07:13):
Some Yes.
Tiffany(07:14):
To the surface where you were like, Ooh, I, I can't physically I'm starting to notice things. What did you notice?
Beth(07:20):
Yeah, well just yeah, getting tired, you know, standing up from sitting, you know, sitting down on the floor, you know, having a hard time standing up for that mm-hmm. Aches, you know, joint aches and things like that. So, you know, I guess more fatigue, tired. That was the other thing. I, I was so tired at the end of the day. I just watched TV and that's it. , that was my life. . What
Tiffany(07:48):
Else could you do?
Beth(07:50):
Ugh.
Tiffany(07:51):
(00:43):
What you also said earlier, you mentioned resentment or resentment. Yes. Can you say what, what you mean by that?
Beth(07:59):
Well, I became I guess with my clients, I wasn't resentful. It was more that I would feel more kind of angry, like in impatient and kinda angry outside of the sessions. You know, I'd be just like, ah, and or, and dreading going to, you know, meeting with certain clients and feeling also Yeah. You know, if they weren't moving fast enough. Things like that. More impatient. And then resent definitely resentments of insurance companies because they I started realizing how little they paid and how it was blaming them for have me having to work so hard. And, you know, and I tried to go down kind of a advocacy path on that. And I tried to stay insurance, so I tried to raise my fees with them and that, that for one insurance company, it worked and then they pulled it back. And so it was, yeah, there was just a lot of just feelings of anger there. Kind of good, good to blame it on them. I guess it's, you know, and then your family members are , but take it out
Tiffany(09:08):
There. It's interesting about adv advocacy. So you actually tried, you, you did a lot of work not only working with your clients, not only working with all your notes, but also you were trying to stay on insurance panels mm-hmm. And give the insurance a chance to do right by you so you could stay. What was it like, what was, can you talk a little bit about what that process was like to try to get more from the insurance companies?
Beth(09:31):
Yeah. Well, it was, it was interesting because I found out, so I was on some different Facebook groups that talked about insurance. And I found out that you could ask for an Inc reimbursement increase. And so I got a, oh boy, I got a letter, you know, I, I wrote the letter and I ha I spelled out certain specialties I had. I, I had OCD specialties, so then I could use that. And then also giving them the amount that I wanted and all that on the letter. And then they gave, and then they did, this might have been timing, but this one insurance company did give me a raise. Probably $40,000 a session, but it was really low to begin with. So that,
Tiffany(10:13):
How much weight, how much per session?
Beth(10:16):
$40 more. So about a third more, yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Third more per session. And then, you know, I just found out that group practices are able to get more raises from insurance companies. Yeah. And then, and then they didn't, they, that insurance company didn't actually start reimbursing me on the date they said they were going to. So it was supposed to be September 1st. And so they didn't give me, so I started, so I was kind of panicking and, and I kept emailing them and they ended up not, not doing it until, it was about February when I decided to contact a lawyer to try to get the arrears and then get them to, it turned out that they were doing that to other therapists too. And I, I, from what I heard, that the other therapist did end up getting the amount, but I'm not sure. I ended up paying lawyer fees to get it. But Did you ever
Tiffany(11:19):
Get the money?
Beth(11:21):
I did, yes, I did. I did get the money smokes
Tiffany(11:25):
Through
Beth(11:25):
The
Tiffany(11:26):
Lawyer. Did you get the pack pay? Did you get the pack pay from September? Yeah. Good. Okay. So all that work just to get a one third more. Oh my God, yes. Okay. in this position, you're seeing, you know, six to eight people a, a day working weekends, also fighting time to like fight with insurance companies and find a lawyer and hire like the time and money.
(01:04):
Beth(11:46):
It was horrible.
Tiffany(11:47):
Yeah. So I'm thinking about people who are listening right now. Therapists who are in this position, they're probably not fighting with insurance companies. 'cause You have a lot of gumption to be able to do that. So let's say they're even just seeing their eight clients a day, back to back weekends, and they're listening to what you're talking about and they're like, I, I have no energy to, I don't want to live this way, but I literally don't have energy to do anything else. How did you best, oh, you just said you already know. How did you even so you joined li you're like, okay, I wanna do this cash pay thing. I'm gonna find a different way. But how did you even have the space in your mind or the time to say, let me invest in doing something different?
Beth(12:25):
Mm, I, I just, I was desperate. I kinda, I kind of felt like I was, it was either do that or, or leave the, there wasn't any way I could sustain that. 'cause I, I didn't wanna live that life. I wanted to be social. I wanted to, you know, do fun things. And I felt like, and I also felt like I needed to make a certain amount of money. I was supporting myself. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna have to either, when I joined Lim, it was kind of like, well, this looks like it could be the answer. And so I'll do that. Otherwise I'm gonna have to, maybe I'm gonna look to work at a university or somewhere where I could get paid a salary. I actually applied at a university and I didn't get it. Wow. But I kind of glad I didn't at this point. But you know, the pay still wouldn't be, that wouldn't have been that high, but it would've been better than, you know, what I was making.
Tiffany(13:23):
Yeah. And if we take what you were making a hundred thousand, but we, we spread it across eight hour days, seven days a week. It comes out to so little hourly for all of the work you did to get to that position. It's wild to think about.
Beth(13:37):
Yeah.
Tiffany(13:38):
What did you want when you were in this grind, you know, fantasizing about a university job and like even applying and not getting it. Where did you, what did you want your life to feel like?
Beth(13:54):
I just, I wanted, I just wanted balance. I wanted to be able to work, not work on the weekends work. You know, I didn't mind working, you know, Monday through Friday, but I wanted to relax more and spend more time. I, I really love reflecting on my clients and trying to find ways to enhance their, their therapy and read up on things. And that was the other thing is I was taking every type of client, every type of, of issue. And so I wanted the time to, you know, study up on all those things. But I didn't even realize that there could be a niche where I wouldn't even have to do that. But I wanted time to, yeah. Read and study and learn and and then also do things like go on vacations and wanted a cabin for my family to go to. Yeah. And I just wanted a re you know, better relationships with my family. Yeah. So, yeah.
Tiffany(14:54):
How did it strain as much as you wanna say as much, or little as you wanna say when you're talking about the strain on your relationships with your family? What did that look like? What did that feel like?
Beth(15:08):
They were, I, I was, I felt like it felt like being left out. Like they were doing things. So I moved here. My family was, my three siblings were already here for a long time, for about 20 years. And then I moved here. And so I felt like I was still being left out. Like, you have to, when you come to do that, you need to do spend, do some work to kind of have them, you be at more at top of mind and not go back to the old way where you were out of town. But I felt like I was still out of town because of, you know, how they're, they kinda stayed in their habit of doing things. And so I felt left out. I felt kind of hurt, like almost didn't realize at the time that it was really me and my work. And they, my guess, I haven't asked them, but my guess is they thought, oh, she's just working hard. And like, oh, we'll just, she'll tell us when she needs us and all that. And, you know, so that's kind of,
Tiffany(16:08):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I'm thinking about the people who are listening. It can feel so isolating. We're busting our in practice working all the time. And then we're also like, and nobody's like checking in and nobody even knows what I'm doing. And, and now by the time I get my phone, I don't even know how to say where I'm at because I've been drowning for so long. I'm just gonna sound like a mess. So let me just avoid further. And it just creates this isolation
Beth(16:33):
(01:25):
Spiral. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Yeah. And then you think, well, during the pandemic, I thought, oh, I'll just throw myself into work because I mean, there's something I can do, right. To help the pandemic. And I took so many clients and yeah, I did that, but I didn't, that's all I did for that year. Yeah.
Tiffany(16:50):
And it could be like, you, I really like what you said about, it can feel like, I mean, obviously we're in relationship with our clients and it could feel fulfilling, but then when we realize we, if we're doing our jobs right, it's not mutual and emotionally, like it's mutual in terms of we get reimbursed. Nick Bogner said this, we get reimbursed by getting paid. That's our reimbursement. Mm-Hmm. We're here to show up for them emotionally. They're not there to show up for us emotionally. And if we start relying on them for that, it's a problem.
Beth(17:14):
Yes. Yes. That's true.. So yeah. So
Tiffany(17:19):
Talk now. What, tell us a little bit about your practice now. What's your fee? How many folks do you see at that fee? What's your schedule like these days?
Beth(17:27):
Yeah, so my fee is $250 a session for 50 minute sessions. I see about 10 clients a week, average. It'll go up to 12 or sometimes nine. And I, so I'll, I have a half hour in between each session, so I, I won't take more than four a day. So I'll have a session, a half hour to sit and reflect and kind of just do whatever, relax. Then I'll have an, you know, another session. And and Monday through, let's see, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday I work till six 30. 'cause That's fine with, you know, my schedule. And I don't start till one. And so in the morning I, I'll do paperwork, but I also can get my exercise in. So those, those three days for sure. And then the the Wednesday. So Wednesday I start in the morning and I get done in the early enough to go out with friends or do a, you know, class or take a, you know, do a program or something.
Beth(18:32):
I took up Pilates. I do that in the mornings. And I'm, I'm very you know, it's, I really recommend Pilates 'cause it's very good for your, your stamina. I mean, I can stand for a long time now and not, you know, it's not a problem. And then I also took a pickleball and Oh, yeah. And I haven't been doing that lately, but I also go to the, I'm gonna take spinning class and I mean, I have the, I have the time to do that now. I have so many options. And I also meet with therapists a lot, sometimes in the mornings, or I go to a networking thing or a, so I have that flexibility which is great. Yeah,
Tiffany(19:15):
A dream. What do you do with friends
Beth(19:16):
And fri I have Fridays off, so, oh,
Tiffany(19:18):
Fridays off. What do you do? When do you go out with friends now? What do you all do together?
Beth(19:23):
Well, we'd go to, in December I did a lot of things. We went to shows, we went to out to the happy hours, you know, and dinner and things like that.
Tiffany(19:37):
Do you see your siblings now?
(01:46):
Beth(19:39):
Yeah, I see them more. I'm closer to my siblings. Yes. I have the time to, my family's been through a lot in the last, so I, I've been able to support them and, and be there for them. It's still, I'm still working on it, but you know, working on staying top of mind and, and all that. What, yeah,
Tiffany(20:00):
Kind of just thinking even emotionally, like when you're describing this different 8, 8, 6 to eight clients a day, working on weekends all alone to like, I work out in the morning, some, maybe, maybe I'm just doing pickleball. Maybe I'm doing Pilates, maybe I'm doing a spin class afterwards. I'm gonna go to shows or happy hours. What do you like emotionally now, now, what's this Beth like versus that Beth? Like emotionally?
Beth(20:22):
Well, yeah, I, I'm so much more grounded and calm. I still focus on work during, I mean, I still focus on work during the week, but on the weekends I'm just kind of up for anything. I've never been one to like to do housework,, but I, I try to do that. Yeah, I mean, I, I also we're doing home remodeling and I wouldn't have been able to at all touch that we saw someone Monday morning, yesterday morning, we saw someone for a couple hours bought our bathroom. Wow. So yeah, I am I kind of came off of a high intense marketing phase. Uhhuh,
Tiffany(21:06):
We'll talk about that in a second,
Beth(21:06):
Which kind of replaced some of the clients, but, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I, it's only been since probably last July or so that I, when I hit my, my case full caseload, that I've been feeling more relaxed.
Tiffany(21:22):
So you got there, and it's been for folks, this is 20, that was 20, 24. So it took like three years to really get to a place where you feel like, ah, I made it, I made it. So you worked, and I, I wanna talk to you about this because I've been a part of this journey and I've been able to see like, what is it like, so in terms of marketing so often therapists who are who, who haven't ever marketed a premium fee practice or haven't gone all in on that, and they're still in the insurance mindset and the burnout mindset. They think, just gimme the magic bullet to market. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And you're laughing. So talk to me about this, this fantasy of let me just market and get it over with.
Beth(22:00):
Oh, I try, I did that exact thing. I wanted the magic bullet. What is the answer? And it's, there's so many options for marketing. So how I see how I, a mindset shift, 'cause you know, it was that I needed to trust that clients, there are clients out there that wa will pay my fee to see me. But I need to have them find, find me. They need to know that I'm there. And they also need to see my message when they do find me and say, oh my gosh, this person speaks to me. And so I got caught up in all the things, like all I I, I was on a lot of Facebook groups, got a lot of learned about a lot of different trainings for different types of marketing and all this stuff. And there was a social media stuff.
Beth(22:57):
So the Instagram and Facebook, and then there was the networking, not so much networking at the beginnings, but and then there was the SEO and I'm like, what's SEOI don't even know what you're talking about. And then that's how to find me. But then there's the how to, the message was the niche. What is your niche? Who is your ideal client? And I, I had the hardest time deciding that because who, I'm not sure what I was stuck on, but it was, I just, I love it. Everyone I work with. And so it's I don't know, it was just really hard to nail down to one person, partly because I thought that the, the less types of people, the less clients you're gonna get, and so you're not gonna fill your caseload. And so I had a hard time with that, but I did, ended up hiring a company to do my website and they helped me with the niche.
Beth(23:58):
They actually, I was more vague than most on the niche, and they kind of helped me hone in on it. But it was still more broad and maybe a little, I don't know. I, yeah, I still wonder if it was too broad, but but I got it done and mm-hmm. And then the people that saw my website, see my website now, they go, oh, oh my gosh. It really speaks to me. And I, I love that. And that was two years ago that I had the website done, so, or three years ago almost. But you did
Tiffany(24:30):
A lot more work even after that. 'cause We were working together the past two years. Yeah. Right. So, what, when thinking about the, you know, the wish for, just tell me what to do in marketing and I'll just do it and it's easy fantasy. Yes. In reality, what internal obstacles, what internal stories did you have to overcome or create a new narrative to allow you to ultimately be successful in bringing in cash pay clients?
Beth(25:00):
(02:07):
Yeah, I had to figure out what marketing strategy is the best for me. And I had to accept that and not worry that I am, there's something wrong with the way I'm doing it because the next person's doing it this way and they're doing it so well. And I'm thinking, I don't know if I can do that. And I try it, like the Instagram for example, I, I heard a therapist doing Instagram and they did such a good job with it and everything, and I tried it and I just was like, oh my gosh. For me to have to post on a regular basis, I thought it would probably kill, kill me. I also, well, I also didn't realize I could hire someone to do things for me. At first I thought I have to do all of this, and I thought I had to do all of it, you know, not just hone in on one thing or a couple things.
Beth(25:54):
So there was, I had to get past that. Yeah, I guess that maybe that was a comparison thing. Like I was comparing myself to others. I'm a, you know, interested. 'cause My generation, so there's, my generation is called the Jones Generation. So there's the Gen X and then there's the Jones as, and then there's the boom, the boomers. So I'm, I, I don't know, it's a kind of a sub generation, but it was kind of funny because it's, I asked my sister-in-law, what does that mean? She said, keeping up with the Joneses. Oh, wow. And so it kind of makes sense that I was like, oh, she's so good at Instagram. I have to be good at Instagram because I'm not gonna be able to get clients. So that kind of a thing. So I had to get over that. And you know, I guess spending money, because my right now, SEO is the one that get, brings me the clients and that costs money. And so I spent the money on that, that it was really only, it was the upfront money was all it costs, and now it's, you know, just here and there, you know, spend money. But you also, I don't know, you have to compare how much. So one thing I learned, actually, I learned so much from that company while they were doing my SEO. And one thing I learned is that you, the return on investment idea. Yes,
Tiffany(27:13):
Yes, yes,
Beth(27:14):
Yes. So you if you spend a thousand dollars and a client for a month is a thousand dollars weekly, a weekly client for a month for me is a thousand dollars. So after a month, i, I make up that money. So if I get one client out of it, it only takes a month for me to get a profit. So you, you know, just multiplying them the thousands. So, so that was helpful too. You know, kind of realizing that I could
Tiffany(27:47):
Get, get, I want folks, ho hopefully you're listening. Beth is very understated. But if you, you can also tell by her social life and her physical activity that she is a baller. She doesn't mess around. She, she, she seems like, you know, Midwest quiet, but no. So I hope you were taking notes and if you were not, go back and listen to what Beth just said around marketing. Here are some things that I heard in there and that I want you all to be listening for too. Beth became, Beth initially wanted a, like a magical solution, a magical bullet. Let me just get outta here. But she stuck with it and took the time to try things, experiment, see what worked and didn't. And, and Beth didn't just say, oh, it's Instagram. Let me do Instagram for six weeks. It didn't work. Forget it.
Tiffany(28:27):
I'm going back to panels. Beth was like, okay, I have to, I, I identify what marketing channel works for me. Then Beth had to pay attention to the emotions underneath, oh, I want Instagram to work because, you know, that person's doing Instagram, I'm a failure if it doesn't work, or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Or, let me just double down on this Instagram. Beth instead did the deep work to say, okay, just 'cause that works for that therapist, it doesn't mean it's gonna work for me. Which means Beth had to actually find the resilience and the sticktoitiveness to continue forward to solve this problem. Like, she knew where she wanted to go. She knew she what kind of life she wanted to have, and she wasn't gonna compromise or give up when she didn't find the answer the first time or the second time or the third time.
Tiffany(29:09):
So compare and despair came up, but she kept at it the, the belief that she had to do everything and she had to do it herself. So Instagram, Facebook, SEO, Google Ads website. No, I have to do it all. Beth was able to actually say, actually that dilutes my focus. I actually need to find the one thing that works for me and double down, which brings us to this idea of investing. Mm-Hmm. And we talked, I remember we had a conversation where you were like, I think it was Google ads you were testing out at the time Mm, mm-hmm . And you were like, I don't know anything. I kind of, I don't know, just, I don't know. And I'm like, Beth, you're a, you have a corporate background. You are badass. Why are you showing up with like this, I don't know, stuff.
Tiffany(29:47):
And you, and you really stepped in like, oh, you saw, I think we saw together where you were kind of ab advocating your thinking mind or your business mind and kind of just hoping someone would solve it. And you really stepped in and you interviewed people who had done Google ads. What worked, what didn't? How does the math breakdown? You had to stick with it. But like, I really wanna understand what does this return on investment mean? Like, if I put in $500 and I get a client back, who's gonna pay me a, I'm gonna get a thousand a month for the next se six months or six years, that's worth $500. So you really had to like, put on your badass hat, say, I'm not, I'm gonna figure this out myself 'cause I know where I'm gonna go. So there was a lot in there that you just casually kind of said that I want folks to pay attention to. When you're playing this game, it's a different kind of game where you're really stepping up and taking responsibility for your relationships with friends, siblings, your business, your marketing, your clinical work. You're taking responsibility. That's what I heard in that. Any thoughts?
Beth(30:45):
Yeah. yeah, I mean, I think there's just, you know, you go into, you go into this without a marketing degree or you go in a marketing and you have to kind of put on, actually, well, one of the things was is that, so you have the c you're the CEO of your business, right? Well, there's also the C-F-O-C-O-O and CMO and I've learned a lot of that from my clients, actually, executive clients those terms. And, and so you, you have to kind of put on, you have to learn those things and put on that hat. And so the marketing person has to look into, into the marketing stuff and kind of, if you look into it more of as a professional way than to just kind of, oh, like for me it was just a, it was a necessary evil at first. It's like, oh, I have to do marketing.
Beth(31:43):
Yuck. And I hated it. I'm honestly telling you, I hated marketing. And so I, but I would just gripe about it. And then, but then as I learned and I, I learned how to slow down, do it more strategically and deliberately, I could figure it out and not have to be in such a, a hurry. I felt like I told someone that I felt like a that I was just kind of, oh, shoot, I forgot the word, but I was kind of constantly just trying different things and being a yeah, just going all over the place. And so I learned to kind of be a marketing manager, you know, where I'm gonna create a strategy for my marketing department for the year, and then that caused me to slow down and look into it. Now what I have, I would say is in order to do that, you have to try different things too, right?
Beth(32:40):
How do you know if you're gonna like Instagram if you don't try it? How you didn't know if you're gonna like SEO if you don't try it. Or networking. Networking was a huge one that I did in 2024. I just got myself out at, at all these places with business people, and like Team Women was a place here different different cha Chambers of Commerce. And, and I just try to tell them what I do, my elevator speech and hope that they would give me clients. Well, it, that's a slow process. I'm, I gave them my cards. They, I'm probably on their mind. Those people are probably not my clients, but they, maybe they have a friend, and someday they'll just say, oh, I remember I met this person. But it's a very slow process. But, but I tried it. I, I, it turned out I liked it. And I still go to them kind of as a social thing because it's, it can be kind of inspiring. You know, so, so that was one thing I tried. And yeah, I mean, TikTok, I've decided not to do TikTok anymore, but get
(02:28):
Tiffany(33:55):
Away from TikTok.
Beth(33:56):
I would do videos, maybe I what
Tiffany(33:58):
get away, get away from TikTok.
Beth(34:01):
But podcasts, I like doing podcast casting. And
Tiffany(34:04):
What, what I had a therapist contact me recently and she was like, you know, building a cash pay practice, maybe that was possible a few, few years ago, but it doesn't work anymore. I don't know why the, some, some fantasy about marketing. So have you found, now we're just in the beginning of 2025, have you found that you've been able to continue with using SEO and networking these different things? Are you still having people call you who are willing to pay out of pocket cash? Yeah.
Beth(34:32):
Yeah. SEO for sure. Yeah. I, I started Google Ads in the fall and then I, it turned out the Google ad company, I wasn't getting people and the Google ad Company realized that there was something going on with the Google ad universe. Oh. So they actually recommended I stop and I go put more on SEO. But the good thing about hiring someone is that they know these, some of these things that you don't know, and you have one trusted person to a, to tell you that one trusted source. But yeah, so far SEO's been been good, but they SEO changes. Google changes stuff. And so you gotta keep up with that. That's why I have a com. I still work with the company. Yeah. So
Tiffany(35:19):
That's helpful to know because I was kind of telling people, oh, SEOI don't know how it's gonna work given all the changes given AI given these bigger platforms, but for you it's working.
Beth(35:27):
Yep.
Tiffany(35:27):
Great. Yeah.
Beth(35:28):
Yeah.
Tiffany(35:29):
(02:49):
Works out there. SEO still works. So again, it kind of comes back to this, Instagram might work for someone, podcast guessing might work, SEO Google, like something is always working for someone. Mm-Hmm. So being so blanketly saying like, it just doesn't work, nothing works anymore. I'm not, is an excuse to not take responsibility for your own life. Right. I'm going to assert that. Yeah.
Tiffany(35:49):
So let me ask you actually, let's we have a little bit more time. I want people to know a little bit more about your background. So we talked about it, here's your journey in private practice. And I think it's helpful for therapists to be able to know you in a fuller context and, and understand who you are as a person coming into this space. Mm-Hmm. So talk to me about your life before you had this corporate life. You had you, right? Like you, you were a single mom at some point. Can you talk a little bit about even that journey before getting into being a therapist?
Beth(36:23):
Yeah. Well, I start, yeah, I started out going into business. I was actually in the IT field tech and because I was good at math, so I went into that. And during those days, that's what math people would go into that a lot of times. And I had a, it was a great career. It was lucrative, it was stable. Worked at a few companies and then I had kids. And when my kids were four and five, I got divorced. Hmm. And so then I did that work as a single mom worked at a big corporate company. And in some ways, so what was funny is when I left that company, I kind of thought of it as, it was like my spouse, the company was, I kind of felt like it because of the good benefits, the, the security and all that.
Beth(37:20):
And you know, I did a really good job there. So, you know, I got, I was, felt very stable there. And then, but then as I got older, or as my kids got older, I realized I could change careers. 'cause What happened is I grew up as a Lutheran minister's daughter. And my mom was a music teacher, so, so very much people, professions. And though my dad also, I think he majored in accounting, but then he ended up being a minister. But, so he still had that. I, that's where I got kind of got that that math stuff from. And but then, so as I was in my career, I, I felt like I was more interested in how people were feeling and what things were going on at home and how, you know, one time this guy came into, this manager came into the, the meeting and he starts with my, oh, sorry, I'm late.
Beth(38:17):
My mother just died. And I'm just feel I'm stunned. And I'm like, and then, and then he kept going about the meeting and I'm stunned going, well, wait a minute. I'm thinking, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. We gotta talk about this. Like, what's going on? How are you feeling? How are you doing? And, but it was business and so you couldn't do that. And so I started to realize that this was not fulfilling for me. And so I went back to my roots of being a child reading psychology or stories about a psychologist that cured a child and unrealistic books about that. But, you know, just, you know, things that I was interested in. And yeah. So in my forties I changed careers and it was interesting. I had these, you golden handcuffs from my job, what you might call it.
Beth(39:08):
So when I left my, I finally stripped those off and went full-time as a therapist, as at an agency making two thirds less than I'd made. And it was I had, but I had saved up. So I had some money saved. Yeah. And then all along thinking, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna go into private practice and I'm gonna be a therapist that, you know, makes good money. And I had a therapist and I had a few, you know, I'd seen, knows, known some therapists, and they seemed like they made good money,. And I didn't know this whole thing until I was in school when they would allude to that, like, you're not gonna make any money. And I'm like, well, I'll show you .
Beth(39:55):
But it's been, and, but it was quite a road. And I learned that to make, you know, make a good living, doing this is extremely hard. And that's where since I went into the field with a passion to help people, I help, you know, the real low income people and real struggling people during my training. 'cause We all kind of do that during our trainings. And then the thought of leaving those people and not working with those people anymore by going premium fee was a real struggle. How did you kind of move through that?
Beth(40:37):
I, all along I was thinking that I really need to, you know, how you have to put your own mask on first as a, you know, in, in an airplane before you put your kids' mask off? Well, that I kept thinking that I, in order to be effective at all, I need to take care of myself. And so if being effective at all means I can't take those clients, then I guess I can't. And I, I also thought maybe someday I could, I always kind of think, well, maybe I could someday, maybe something would happen where I could. And then also maybe pro bono, once I get full turns out I really wanna help people on a more global scale. So I don't wanna do pro bono. I wanna take the free time that I have now to, you know, maybe help in other ways, politically advocacy volunteer, things like that. So, so I learned that too.. Yeah.
Tiffany(41:36):
Once you free yourself up to actually take care of yourself and, and say this, in this season of my life, I'm actually just taking care of myself. Yeah. My emotional health, my physical health, my financial health. Then you actually get a chance to discover, how do I really wanna give back? Is it just yeah, 80 clients a week and stressed out in doing work all around? Or is there actually a way I could be more impactful and feel connected and passionate?
Beth(41:58):
Yes. Yes. And I do so because I put myself on my website. I, I, I talk about being a feminist and being social justice and stuff. I get the clients I have can afford my sessions, but they're, they're compassionate people and it's, it's a joy to work with them. And I, so I, I get a lot of joy outta working with my clients, but then, and then I can also get joy on the side, you know, to work with the other types of people too, if I want mm-hmm. So I wouldn't have known that had I not tried this. Yeah.
Tiffany(42:32):
Yeah. this because, so, so this is my final question, and then I wanna let folks know how they can be in, in touch with you. So really this has been about a three year journey to get to this point where you're comfortably seeing your 10 clients a week at two 50, able to do your pickleball when you want, able to go to happy hours. Looking back into 2018 ish, 2019, when you said, I'm gonna take this leap, I'm, I imagine there was a Beth who was like, six months, let's just get it done. Did so for therapists who are listening to see, hear like, this is not magic. This doesn't happen in two weeks or less. This is a journey that takes investment time, long, deep relationships with people who charge premium fees, who are doing it. A container that allows you to grow and change.
(03:10):
Tiffany(43:21):
It takes time for therapists who are sitting there seeing their eight clients a day, doing their notes on Saturdays, don't even know their kids' names, forgot about, they don't have time, they don't wanna call their friends because they couldn't even begin to dig themselves out of the hole. That's bad. But when they say like, oh, but the work I have to do to get to where Beth is now, maybe that's too hard. Maybe it's not really worth it. I don't have the stamina. What do you say to people who are still there listening right now?
Beth(43:52):
Hmm. Well, one of the things that helped me start the process was leaving one of my insurance companies. So I did have, I, I created more time for myself, and I was able to, I mean, I, I I, I offered them counseling at one 60, and so that helped me because some of them left and some of them stayed, but then I, that kind of gave me more time. And so I guess that's one thing I did is I, all along the way, I kind of created a way for me to have less clients so that I could do more marketing. And I would also say that there's other people doing this. And I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for all my, my colleagues that, or my other, I guess tend to be other limb people. 'cause They understand. But other people that I've talked to that have been cheerleaders for me, that I've cheerleaded that understand, they, they cheerlead lead my objectives.
Beth(44:56):
So they know my objective of making this much money, charging this much. They are like, go for it. And they're never questioning it. But then they also challenge me in ways like, are you sure that that, you know, marketing strategy is gonna work to get there? 'cause It, and so that combination, I had people in my life that, my personal life, they were not cheerleaders. They were like shocked because like, what you, I thought you became a therapist to be helping the lowest of the low, my dad being a minister my siblings too. And, and and then, so it's like, what are you doing now? Like, what? But I, so I, I decided to talk to these other people and they, they have been helping. And so I guess I would to say that that's very important. Lim kind of helped me meet those people and, and then, but you need to kind of put yourself out there and continue with those relationships.
Beth(45:58):
So I guess that's what I would say. Is it worth it? Has it been worth it? Oh gosh, totally worth it., it's like the excitement of, so I had 22 and 20, so 22 through 20 and 23 were 22 was a building year, converting to this new way, 23 was a hard year where I wasn't getting, it wasn't fast enough. 24, it started to, you know, happen. And now I'm just, you know, there. So I think it's just such a joy to be able to have this hope that I can have. I just, you know, could make more if I wanted or I could stay here and I'd be fine. There's so many things I can do with my time now, now the hard part's deciding what to do with it. vacations, I'm starting, oh, I'm starting to think about traveling again.
Beth(46:55):
So I have a gonna get on that yacht. I'm gonna get outta yacht. Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah. So next fall I'm gonna travel. I'm doing something the summer and the spring, so it's like, you know, all that time. But it's, it's so worth it. It's hard, hard work, but the growth is really great. I have so much more confidence. I mean, I'm working with tenured professors and like, yeah, they still scare me a little bit before I, you know, start working with 'em. But they're really, you know, they're just regular people. And I work with CC no, CEOs. Yeah, CEOs. And, you know, it's just yeah, I never thought I would be doing this, I guess. But yeah, that's definitely, I'll just
Tiffany(47:43):
Say for folks listening, when you, when you, Beth, you're like, I'm a little intimidated still before I see them. We're a little nervous. But Anne, I'm thinking about the gift of you. Who uhhuh. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it in that meeting all those years ago where the guy comes in and says, my mom just died. Anyways, get into the meeting. And you were the one person in the room who was like, no, I'm getting just chills. No. Like, you're thinking and feeling about what's not okay here. The gift that you give these ceo, these academics or CEO in their careers, they're the expert. They're like, do moving and shaken. They look impressive. But in that space, in that therapy room, you are holding something that they literally don't even know. They don't know you are holding that for them, which, which nobody in their life has ever done. Like, that's where you are just you know, heads and shoulders in offering some them something around what it means to actually take up space, to own oneself, to have emotional connection, to be in relationship with other people. It's beautiful.
Beth(48:36):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
Tiffany(48:39):
People are listening right now and they're like, I wanna know, Beth, can I talk to Beth? So Beth, how can people that work with you find out more about, you set up a consultation with you as a premium fee provider? Where do people go?
Beth(48:52):
All right, well, the best way to get ahold of you is going to my website. It's www.fireflycounselingmn.com. And there's say, book an appointment. You can book an appointment for a consult. That would be usually clients. But if, heck, heck, if you make a consult and you're not a client, that's fine. But also there's a contact form on there, and that's a, you can put in why you wanna meet with me and everything, and we can set something up. So yeah, that's love to
Tiffany(49:24):
Beth Firefly counseling n.com mm-hmm. And for folks who are thinking like, what, you know, I'm so curious, or I wanna know more, I'll, I'll even give you a little more guidance. If you're somebody who is like, I wanna do this thing, or maybe you've even started down the road of cash pay, or you're considering it, but you're worried about the marketing. I think Beth is a really cool person to talk to around just the experience of what it means to, to play the marketing game for two years until you find the thing like what it takes internally, the resilience. What kind of questions you, Beth learned how to ask, what kinds of indicators you learned to look forward to say like, yes, this marketing strategy is good for me, or, yes, this company is good to work with, or, no, here are some red flags. If you have those kinds of questions. I think booking a, a consult session with you, Beth, paid of course at a premium fee mm-hmm . To start learning from somebody who's gone down this road so that you don't have to pay the two years and the hours and the money that Beth put in. Oh, she's done it for you. So just hire her to talk you through. Does that sound good, Beth?
Beth(50:22):
(03:31):
Sounds great. Yeah. Love to.
Tiffany(50:25):
Thank you so much for your Time.
Beth(50:26):
You're welcome. That's great.
Beth (50:29):
Bye.
Outro (50:34):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Intro (00:05):
(00:01):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people.
You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself.
This is ridiculous. Completely broke, man. If people knew who they were, do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(00:47):
There we go, folks. I'm so happy to be here with Beth. Beth, I know. Well, Beth has been a long time in the making to get you on this podcast. I'm so glad you're funny here. Start please by telling folks a little bit about your practice as it now stands. Where are you located? Who do you work with?
Beth(01:05):
All right. Well, I am in, I have a solo practice in St. Paul, Minnesota, and it's called Firefly Counseling. And I do in, in person and virtual sessions. And I work with high achieving women who wanna break through what's holding them back. Usually it's, usually it's imposter syndrome, social anxiety relationship boundaries, things like that. So I work with mostly anxiety relationships and yeah. It's so fun.
Tiffany(01:41):
So fun. And Beth, Beth has, well, we'll get into it. We'll get into it. Okay.
Beth(02:02):
That sounds great.
Tiffany(02:04):
Okay. So take us back to the, take us back to the insurance panel days. When was that? What was your practice like? Just describe a day in the life of Beth back then.
Beth(02:18):
All right, well, I moved to Minneapolis from Milwaukee in 2018 and I started a practice, got on all insurance panels and I got going pretty quickly. But I, so, so I would take insurance and I would take, gosh, up to six to eight clients a day. So up to eight clients a day, I'd have a half hour or an hour break in between. I'd go Monday through Friday. Friday mornings I'd do four clients only, but the rest of the days I'd do as many as I could. If I could get to eight, that would be great. And that's because I wanted to make, you know, a hundred thousand dollars a year. And so I, yeah. And so what, what ended up happening is I would work every day. I'd, I'd take all those clients, wouldn't do my paperwork 'cause I can't do my paperwork that quick.
Beth(03:10):
And so on the weekends I would do paperwork, billing, and I, I would work eight hours Saturday and Sunday I just kind of go to a coffee shop and I just work and
Tiffany(03:57):
Beth(04:19):
I did that through the pandemic well through 2021. Okay. I joined Limb in 2021 in May. May or yeah, may. And yeah. And so I joined LI because I wanted to go cash pay and I'd heard about li from someone else. And I thought I needed, I needed an answer. I needed, I was getting burnt out. I was starting to get resentful, all the signs of burnout. Let's, let's cool back. Let's,
(00:22):
Tiffany(04:53):
Let's double click on that. As my partner in tech likes to say, double click on that. So you're, you're doing these eight hour, six to eight hour client days Monday through Friday, four on Friday. 'cause You're giving yourself a little break notes on the weekends. What were like three signs that this was no longer working? 'cause It was working, you were hitting your a hundred thousand dollars. What stopped working about this?
Beth(05:19):
Well, one thing that stopped working is I could, I was fell very behind on paperwork. As a matter of fact. I practically had to give up paperwork, like progress notes. And I felt guilty that I was in, afraid that I was gonna get audited. And I, you know, I kept trying to get caught up on paperwork
Tiffany(05:52):
On that, how did you know, like what did loneliness feel like for you in those days?
Beth(06:00):
Well, I started to actually get afraid of reaching out to people that I hadn't been, except for those best friends. Right. I, there were people that I really had neglected, like my certain family members and stuff. And I just kind of started to get a little bit kind of anxious about reaching out. 'cause I'm like, oh, they don't even, you know, know me or, you know, things like that. I did, you know, when you're a therapist, your clients keep you from being lonely to some degree because Yeah, right. They're they're a relationship, but it's one sided. And so it's not, you know, it's not fun too. It's not like, you know, having a lot of fun with someone. It's, it's meaningful, but you also don't get your needs met with that person. And then I just, I guess the another thing was the self care and the health. I just was, had gained weight and I was not in good shape. And at my age, I, I'm, you know, I need to stay in shape, good shape in order to keep doing the things I wanna do. So it takes its toll. So, yeah.
Tiffany(07:05):
When did you, when did you notice even physically, like I, I was sick last week and I didn't work out at all. And I'm noticing my right hip is like aching. So what were
Beth(07:13):
Some
Tiffany(07:14):
To the surface where you were like, Ooh, I, I can't physically I'm starting to notice things. What did you notice?
Beth(07:20):
Yeah, well just yeah, getting tired, you know, standing up from sitting, you know, sitting down on the floor, you know, having a hard time standing up for that mm-hmm
Tiffany(07:48):
Else could you do?
Beth(07:50):
Ugh.
Tiffany(07:51):
(00:43):
What you also said earlier, you mentioned resentment or resentment. Yes. Can you say what, what you mean by that?
Beth(07:59):
Well, I became I guess with my clients, I wasn't resentful. It was more that I would feel more kind of angry, like in impatient and kinda angry outside of the sessions. You know, I'd be just like, ah, and or, and dreading going to, you know, meeting with certain clients and feeling also Yeah. You know, if they weren't moving fast enough. Things like that. More impatient. And then resent definitely resentments of insurance companies because they I started realizing how little they paid and how it was blaming them for have me having to work so hard. And, you know, and I tried to go down kind of a advocacy path on that. And I tried to stay insurance, so I tried to raise my fees with them and that, that for one insurance company, it worked and then they pulled it back. And so it was, yeah, there was just a lot of just feelings of anger there. Kind of good, good to blame it on them. I guess it's
Tiffany(09:08):
There. It's interesting about adv advocacy. So you actually tried, you, you did a lot of work not only working with your clients, not only working with all your notes, but also you were trying to stay on insurance panels mm-hmm. And give the insurance a chance to do right by you so you could stay. What was it like, what was, can you talk a little bit about what that process was like to try to get more from the insurance companies?
Beth(09:31):
Yeah. Well, it was, it was interesting because I found out, so I was on some different Facebook groups that talked about insurance. And I found out that you could ask for an Inc reimbursement increase. And so I got a, oh boy, I got a letter, you know, I, I wrote the letter and I ha I spelled out certain specialties I had. I, I had OCD specialties, so then I could use that. And then also giving them the amount that I wanted and all that on the letter. And then they gave, and then they did, this might have been timing, but this one insurance company did give me a raise. Probably $40,000 a session, but it was really low to begin with
Tiffany(10:13):
How much weight, how much per session?
Beth(10:16):
$40 more. So about a third more, yeah. Mm-Hmm
Tiffany(11:19):
Get the money?
Beth(11:21):
I did, yes, I did. I did get the money smokes
Tiffany(11:25):
Through
Beth(11:25):
The
Tiffany(11:26):
Lawyer. Did you get the pack pay? Did you get the pack pay from September? Yeah. Good. Okay. So all that work just to get a one third more. Oh my God, yes. Okay.
(01:04):
Beth(11:46):
It was horrible.
Tiffany(11:47):
Yeah. So I'm thinking about people who are listening right now. Therapists who are in this position, they're probably not fighting with insurance companies. 'cause You have a lot of gumption to be able to do that. So let's say they're even just seeing their eight clients a day, back to back weekends, and they're listening to what you're talking about and they're like, I, I have no energy to, I don't want to live this way, but I literally don't have energy to do anything else. How did you best, oh, you just said you already know. How did you
Beth(12:25):
Mm, I, I just, I was desperate. I kinda, I kind of felt like I was, it was either do that or, or leave the, there wasn't any way I could sustain that. 'cause I, I didn't wanna live that life. I wanted to be social. I wanted to, you know, do fun things. And I felt like, and I also felt like I needed to make a certain amount of money. I was supporting myself. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna have to either, when I joined Lim, it was kind of like, well, this looks like it could be the answer. And so I'll do that. Otherwise I'm gonna have to, maybe I'm gonna look to work at a university or somewhere where I could get paid a salary. I actually applied at a university and I didn't get it. Wow. But I kind of glad I didn't at this point. But you know, the pay still wouldn't be, that wouldn't have been that high, but it would've been better than, you know, what I was making.
Tiffany(13:23):
Yeah. And if we take what you were making a hundred thousand, but we, we spread it across eight hour days, seven days a week. It comes out to so little hourly for all of the work you did to get to that position. It's wild to think about.
Beth(13:37):
Yeah.
Tiffany(13:38):
What did you want when you were in this grind, you know, fantasizing about a university job and like even applying and not getting it. Where did you, what did you want your life to feel like?
Beth(13:54):
I just, I wanted, I just wanted balance. I wanted to be able to work, not work on the weekends work. You know, I didn't mind working, you know, Monday through Friday, but I wanted to relax more and spend more time. I, I really love reflecting on my clients and trying to find ways to enhance their, their therapy and read up on things. And that was the other thing is I was taking every type of client, every type of, of issue. And so I wanted the time to, you know, study up on all those things. But I didn't even realize that there could be a niche where I wouldn't even have to do that. But I wanted time to, yeah. Read and study and learn and and then also do things like go on vacations and wanted a cabin for my family to go to. Yeah. And I just wanted a re you know, better relationships with my family. Yeah. So, yeah.
Tiffany(14:54):
How did it strain as much as you wanna say as much, or little as you wanna say when you're talking about the strain on your relationships with your family? What did that look like? What did that feel like?
Beth(15:08):
They were, I, I was, I felt like it felt like being left out. Like they were doing things. So I moved here. My family was, my three siblings were already here for a long time, for about 20 years. And then I moved here. And so I felt like I was still being left out. Like, you have to, when you come to do that, you need to do spend, do some work to kind of have them, you be at more at top of mind and not go back to the old way where you were out of town. But I felt like I was still out of town because of, you know, how they're, they kinda stayed in their habit of doing things. And so I felt left out. I felt kind of hurt, like almost didn't realize at the time that it was really me and my work. And they, my guess, I haven't asked them, but my guess is they thought, oh, she's just working hard. And like, oh, we'll just, she'll tell us when she needs us and
Tiffany(16:08):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I'm thinking about the people who are listening. It can feel so isolating. We're busting our in practice working all the time. And then we're also like, and nobody's like checking in and nobody even knows what I'm doing. And, and now by the time I get my phone, I don't even know how to say where I'm at because I've been drowning for so long. I'm just gonna sound like a mess. So let me just avoid further. And it just creates this isolation
Beth(16:33):
(01:25):
Spiral. Mm-Hmm
Tiffany(16:50):
And it could be like, you, I really like what you said about, it can feel like, I mean, obviously we're in relationship with our clients and it could feel fulfilling, but then when we realize we, if we're doing our jobs right, it's not mutual and emotionally, like it's mutual in terms of we get reimbursed. Nick Bogner said this, we get reimbursed by getting paid. That's our reimbursement. Mm-Hmm
Beth(17:14):
Yes. Yes. That's true.
Tiffany(17:19):
Talk now. What, tell us a little bit about your practice now. What's your fee? How many folks do you see at that fee? What's your schedule like these days?
Beth(17:27):
Yeah, so my fee is $250 a session for 50 minute sessions. I see about 10 clients a week, average. It'll go up to 12 or sometimes nine. And I, so I'll, I have a half hour in between each session, so I, I won't take more than four a day. So I'll have a session, a half hour to sit and reflect and kind of just do whatever, relax. Then I'll have an, you know, another session. And and Monday through, let's see, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday I work till six 30. 'cause That's fine with, you know, my schedule. And I don't start till one. And so in the morning I, I'll do paperwork, but I also can get my exercise in. So those, those three days for sure. And then the the Wednesday. So Wednesday I start in the morning and I get done in the early enough to go out with friends or do a, you know, class or take a, you know, do a program or something.
Beth(18:32):
I took up Pilates. I do that in the mornings. And I'm, I'm very you know, it's, I really recommend Pilates 'cause it's very good for your, your stamina. I mean, I can stand for a long time now and not, you know, it's not a problem. And then I also took a pickleball and Oh, yeah. And I haven't been doing that lately, but I also go to the, I'm gonna take spinning class and I mean, I have the, I have the time to do that now. I have so many options. And I also meet with therapists a lot, sometimes in the mornings, or I go to a networking thing or a, so I have that flexibility which is great. Yeah,
Tiffany(19:15):
A dream. What do you do with friends
Beth(19:16):
And fri I have Fridays off
Tiffany(19:18):
Fridays off. What do you do? When do you go out with friends now? What do you all do together?
Beth(19:23):
Well, we'd go to, in December I did a lot of things. We went to shows, we went to out to the happy hours, you know, and dinner and things like that.
Tiffany(19:37):
Do you see your siblings now?
(01:46):
Beth(19:39):
Yeah, I see them more. I'm closer to my siblings. Yes. I have the time to, my family's been through a lot in the last
Tiffany(20:00):
Kind of just thinking even emotionally, like when you're describing this different 8, 8, 6 to eight clients a day, working on weekends all alone to like, I work out in the morning, some, maybe, maybe I'm just doing pickleball. Maybe I'm doing Pilates, maybe I'm doing a spin class afterwards. I'm gonna go to shows or happy hours. What do you like emotionally now, now, what's this Beth like versus that Beth? Like emotionally?
Beth(20:22):
Well, yeah, I, I'm so much more grounded and calm. I still focus on work during, I mean, I still focus on work during the week, but on the weekends I'm just kind of up for anything. I've never been one to like to do housework,
Tiffany(21:06):
We'll talk about that in a second,
Beth(21:06):
Which kind of replaced some of the clients, but
Tiffany(21:22):
So you got there, and it's been for folks, this is 20, that was 20, 24. So it took like three years to really get to a place where you feel like, ah, I made it, I made it. So you worked, and I, I wanna talk to you about this because I've been a part of this journey and I've been able to see like, what is it like, so in terms of marketing so often therapists who are who, who haven't ever marketed a premium fee practice or haven't gone all in on that, and they're still in the insurance mindset and the burnout mindset. They think, just gimme the magic bullet to market. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And you're laughing. So talk to me about this, this fantasy of let me just market and get it over with.
Beth(22:00):
Oh, I try, I did that exact thing. I wanted the magic bullet. What is the answer? And it's, there's so many options for marketing. So how I see how I, a mindset shift, 'cause you know, it was that I needed to trust that clients, there are clients out there that wa will pay my fee to see me. But I need to have them find, find me. They need to know that I'm there. And they also need to see my message when they do find me and say, oh my gosh, this person speaks to me. And so I got caught up in all the things, like all I I, I was on a lot of Facebook groups, got a lot of learned about a lot of different trainings for different types of marketing and all this stuff. And there was a social media stuff.
Beth(22:57):
So the Instagram and Facebook, and then there was the networking, not so much networking at the beginnings, but and then there was the SEO and I'm like, what's SEOI don't even know what you're talking about. And then that's how to find me. But then there's the how to, the message was the niche. What is your niche? Who is your ideal client? And I, I had the hardest time deciding that because who, I'm not sure what I was stuck on
Beth(23:58):
They actually, I was more vague than most on the niche, and they kind of helped me hone in on it. But it was still more broad and maybe a little, I don't know. I, yeah, I still wonder if it was too broad, but but I got it done and mm-hmm
Tiffany(24:30):
A lot more work even after that. 'cause We were working together the past two years. Yeah. Right. So
Beth(25:00):
(02:07):
Yeah, I had to figure out what marketing strategy is the best for me. And I had to accept that and not worry that I am, there's something wrong with the way I'm doing it because the next person's doing it this way and they're doing it so well. And I'm thinking, I don't know if I can do that. And I try it, like the Instagram for example, I, I heard a therapist doing Instagram and they did such a good job with it and everything, and I tried it and I just was like, oh my gosh. For me to have to post on a regular basis, I thought it would probably kill, kill me
Beth(25:54):
So there was, I had to get past that. Yeah, I guess that maybe that was a comparison thing. Like I was comparing myself to others. I'm a
Tiffany(27:13):
Yes, yes,
Beth(27:14):
Yes. So you if you spend a thousand dollars and a client for a month is a thousand dollars weekly, a weekly client for a month for me is a thousand dollars. So after a month, i, I make up that money. So if I get one client out of it, it only takes a month for me to get a profit. So you, you know, just multiplying them the thousands. So, so that was helpful too. You know, kind of realizing that I could
Tiffany(27:47):
Get, get, I want folks, ho hopefully you're listening. Beth is very understated. But if you, you can also tell by her social life and her physical activity that she is a baller. She doesn't mess around. She, she, she seems like, you know, Midwest quiet, but no. So I hope you were taking notes and if you were not, go back and listen to what Beth just said around marketing. Here are some things that I heard in there and that I want you all to be listening for too. Beth became, Beth initially wanted a, like a magical solution, a magical bullet. Let me just get outta here. But she stuck with it and took the time to try things, experiment, see what worked and didn't. And, and Beth didn't just say, oh, it's Instagram. Let me do Instagram for six weeks. It didn't work. Forget it.
Tiffany(28:27):
I'm going back to panels. Beth was like, okay, I have to, I, I identify what marketing channel works for me. Then Beth had to pay attention to the emotions underneath, oh, I want Instagram to work because, you know, that person's doing Instagram, I'm a failure if it doesn't work, or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Or, let me just double down on this Instagram. Beth instead did the deep work to say, okay, just 'cause that works for that therapist, it doesn't mean it's gonna work for me. Which means Beth had to actually find the resilience and the sticktoitiveness to continue forward to solve this problem. Like, she knew where she wanted to go. She knew she what kind of life she wanted to have, and she wasn't gonna compromise or give up when she didn't find the answer the first time or the second time or the third time.
Tiffany(29:09):
So compare and despair came up, but she kept at it the, the belief that she had to do everything and she had to do it herself. So Instagram, Facebook, SEO, Google Ads website. No, I have to do it all. Beth was able to actually say, actually that dilutes my focus. I actually need to find the one thing that works for me and double down, which brings us to this idea of investing. Mm-Hmm
Tiffany(29:47):
And you, and you really stepped in like, oh, you saw, I think we saw together where you were kind of ab advocating your thinking mind or your business mind and kind of just hoping someone would solve it. And you really stepped in and you interviewed people who had done Google ads. What worked, what didn't? How does the math breakdown? You had to stick with it. But like, I really wanna understand what does this return on investment mean? Like, if I put in $500 and I get a client back, who's gonna pay me a, I'm gonna get a thousand a month for the next se six months or six years, that's worth $500. So you really had to like, put on your badass hat, say, I'm not, I'm gonna figure this out myself 'cause I know where I'm gonna go. So there was a lot in there that you just casually kind of said that I want folks to pay attention to. When you're playing this game, it's a different kind of game where you're really stepping up and taking responsibility for your relationships with friends, siblings, your business, your marketing, your clinical work. You're taking responsibility. That's what I heard in that. Any thoughts?
Beth(30:45):
Yeah. yeah, I mean, I think there's just, you know, you go into, you go into this without a marketing degree or you go in a marketing and you have to kind of put on, actually, well, one of the things was is that, so you have the c you're the CEO of your business, right? Well, there's also the C-F-O-C-O-O and CMO and I've learned a lot of that from my clients, actually, executive clients those terms. And, and so you, you have to kind of put on, you have to learn those things and put on that hat. And so the marketing person has to look into, into the marketing stuff and kind of, if you look into it more of as a professional way than to just kind of, oh, like for me it was just a, it was a necessary evil at first. It's like, oh, I have to do marketing.
Beth(31:43):
Yuck. And I hated it. I'm honestly telling you, I hated marketing
Beth(32:40):
How do you know if you're gonna like Instagram if you don't try it? How you didn't know if you're gonna like SEO if you don't try it. Or networking. Networking was a huge one that I did in 2024. I just got myself out at, at all these places with business people,
(02:28):
Tiffany(33:55):
Away from TikTok.
Beth(33:56):
I would do videos, maybe I what
Tiffany(33:58):
Beth(34:01):
But podcasts, I like doing podcast casting. And
Tiffany(34:04):
What, what I had a therapist contact me recently and she was like, you know, building a cash pay practice, maybe that was possible a few, few years ago, but it doesn't work anymore. I don't know why the, some, some fantasy about marketing. So have you found, now we're just in the beginning of 2025, have you found that you've been able to continue with using SEO and networking these different things? Are you still having people call you who are willing to pay out of pocket cash? Yeah.
Beth(34:32):
Yeah. SEO for sure. Yeah. I, I started Google Ads in the fall and then I, it turned out the Google ad company, I wasn't getting people and the Google ad Company realized that there was something going on with the Google ad universe. Oh. So they actually recommended I stop and I go put more on SEO. But the good thing about hiring someone is that they know these, some of these things that you don't know, and you have one trusted person to a, to tell you that
Tiffany(35:19):
That's helpful to know because I was kind of telling people, oh, SEOI don't know how it's gonna work given all the changes given AI given these bigger platforms, but for you it's working.
Beth(35:27):
Yep.
Tiffany(35:27):
Great. Yeah.
Beth(35:28):
Yeah.
Tiffany(35:29):
(02:49):
Works out there. SEO still works. So again, it kind of comes back to this, Instagram might work for someone, podcast guessing might work, SEO Google, like something is always working for someone. Mm-Hmm
Tiffany(35:49):
So let me ask you actually, let's we have a little bit more time. I want people to know a little bit more about your background. So we talked about it, here's your journey in private practice. And I think it's helpful for therapists to be able to know you in a fuller context and, and understand who you are as a person coming into this space. Mm-Hmm. So talk to me about your life before you had this corporate life. You had you, right? Like you, you were a single mom at some point. Can you talk a little bit about even that journey before getting into being a therapist?
Beth(36:23):
Yeah. Well, I start, yeah, I started out going into business. I was actually in the IT field tech and because I was good at math, so I went into that. And during those days, that's what math people would go into that a lot of times. And I had a, it was a great career. It was lucrative, it was stable. Worked at a few companies and then I had kids. And when my kids were four and five, I got divorced. Hmm. And so then I did that work as a single mom worked at a big corporate company. And in some ways, so what was funny is when I left that company, I kind of thought of it as, it was like my spouse, the company was, I kind of felt like it because of the good benefits, the, the security and all that.
Beth(37:20):
And you know, I did a really good job there. So, you know, I got, I was, felt very stable there. And then, but then as I got older, or as my kids got older, I realized I could change careers. 'cause What happened is I grew up as a Lutheran minister's daughter. And my mom was a music teacher, so
Beth(38:17):
My mother just died. And I'm just feel I'm stunned. And I'm like, and then, and then he kept going about the meeting and I'm stunned going, well, wait a minute. I'm thinking, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. We gotta talk about this. Like, what's going on? How are you feeling? How are you doing? And, but it was business and so you couldn't do that. And so I started to realize that this was not fulfilling for me. And so I went back to my roots of being a child reading psychology or stories about a psychologist that cured a child and unrealistic books about that
Beth(39:08):
So when I left my, I finally stripped those off and went full-time as a therapist, as at an agency making two thirds less than I'd made. And it was I had, but I had saved up. So I had some money saved. Yeah. And then all along thinking, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna go into private practice and I'm gonna be a therapist that, you know, makes good money. And I had a therapist and I had a few, you know, I'd seen, knows, known some therapists, and they seemed like they made good money,
Beth(39:55):
But it's been, and, but it was quite a road. And I learned that to make, you know, make a good living, doing this is extremely hard. And that's where since I went into the field with a passion to help people, I help, you know, the real low income people and real struggling people during my training. 'cause We all kind of do that during our trainings. And then the thought of leaving those people and not working with those people anymore by going premium fee was a real struggle. How did you kind of move through that?
Beth(40:37):
I, all along I was thinking that I really need to, you know, how you have to put your own mask on first as a, you know, in, in an airplane before you put your kids' mask off? Well, that I kept thinking that I, in order to be effective at all, I need to take care of myself. And so if being effective at all means I can't take those clients, then I guess I can't. And I, I also thought maybe someday I could, I always kind of think, well, maybe I could someday, maybe something would happen where I could. And then also maybe pro bono, once I get full turns out I really wanna help people on a more global scale. So I don't wanna do pro bono. I wanna take the free time that I have now to, you know, maybe help in other ways, politically advocacy volunteer, things like that. So, so I learned that too.
Tiffany(41:36):
Once you free yourself up to actually take care of yourself and, and say this, in this season of my life, I'm actually just taking care of myself. Yeah. My emotional health, my physical health, my financial health. Then you actually get a chance to discover, how do I really wanna give back? Is it just yeah, 80 clients a week and stressed out in doing work all around? Or is there actually a way I could be more impactful and feel connected and passionate?
Beth(41:58):
Yes. Yes. And I do so because I put myself on my website. I, I, I talk about being a feminist and being social justice and stuff. I get the clients I have can afford my sessions, but they're, they're compassionate people and it's, it's a joy to work with them. And I, so I, I get a lot of joy outta working with my clients, but then, and then I can also get joy on the side, you know, to work with the other types of people too, if I want mm-hmm
Tiffany(42:32):
Yeah.
(03:10):
Tiffany(43:21):
It takes time for therapists who are sitting there seeing their eight clients a day, doing their notes on Saturdays, don't even know their kids' names, forgot about, they don't have time, they don't wanna call their friends because they couldn't even begin to dig themselves out of the hole. That's bad. But when they say like, oh, but the work I have to do to get to where Beth is now, maybe that's too hard. Maybe it's not really worth it. I don't have the stamina. What do you say to people who are still there listening right now?
Beth(43:52):
Hmm. Well, one of the things that helped me start the process was leaving one of my insurance companies. So I did have, I, I created more time for myself, and I was able to, I mean, I, I I, I offered them counseling at one 60, and so that helped me because some of them left and some of them stayed, but then I, that kind of gave me more time. And so I guess that's one thing I did is I, all along the way, I kind of created a way for me to have less clients so that I could do more marketing. And I would also say that there's other people doing this. And I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for all my, my colleagues that, or my other, I guess tend to be other limb people. 'cause They understand. But other people that I've talked to that have been cheerleaders for me, that I've cheerleaded that understand, they, they cheerlead lead my objectives.
Beth(44:56):
So they know my objective of making this much money, charging this much. They are like, go for it. And they're never questioning it. But then they also challenge me in ways like, are you sure that that, you know, marketing strategy is gonna work to get there? 'cause It, and so that combination, I had people in my life that, my personal life, they were not cheerleaders. They were like shocked because like, what you, I thought you became a therapist to be helping the lowest of the low, my dad being a minister my siblings too. And, and and then, so it's like, what are you doing now? Like, what? But I, so I, I decided to talk to these other people and they, they have been helping. And so I guess I would to say that that's very important. Lim kind of helped me meet those people and, and then, but you need to kind of put yourself out there and continue with those relationships.
Beth(45:58):
So I guess that's what I would say. Is it worth it? Has it been worth it? Oh gosh, totally worth it.
Beth(46:55):
So I have a gonna get on that yacht. I'm gonna get outta yacht. Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah. So next fall I'm gonna travel. I'm doing something the summer and the spring, so it's like, you know, all that time. But it's, it's so worth it. It's hard, hard work, but the growth is really great. I have so much more confidence. I mean, I'm working with tenured professors and like, yeah, they still scare me a little bit before I, you know, start working with 'em. But they're really, you know, they're just regular people. And I work with CC no, CEOs. Yeah, CEOs. And, you know, it's just yeah, I never thought I would be doing this, I guess. But yeah, that's definitely, I'll just
Tiffany(47:43):
Say for folks listening, when you, when you, Beth, you're like, I'm a little intimidated still before I see them. We're a little nervous. But Anne, I'm thinking about the gift of you. Who uhhuh. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it in that meeting all those years ago where the guy comes in and says, my mom just died. Anyways, get into the meeting. And you were the one person in the room who was like, no, I'm getting just chills. No. Like, you're thinking and feeling about what's not okay here. The gift that you give these ceo, these academics or CEO in their careers, they're the expert. They're like, do moving and shaken. They look impressive. But in that space, in that therapy room, you are holding something that they literally don't even know. They don't know you are holding that for them, which, which nobody in their life has ever done. Like, that's where you are just you know, heads and shoulders in offering some them something around what it means to actually take up space, to own oneself, to have emotional connection, to be in relationship with other people. It's beautiful.
Beth(48:36):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
Tiffany(48:39):
People are listening right now and they're like, I wanna know, Beth, can I talk to Beth? So Beth, how can people that work with you find out more about, you set up a consultation with you as a premium fee provider? Where do people go?
Beth(48:52):
All right, well, the best way to get ahold of you is going to my website. It's www.fireflycounselingmn.com. And there's say, book an appointment. You can book an appointment for a consult. That would be usually clients. But if, heck, heck, if you make a consult and you're not a client, that's fine. But also there's a contact form on there, and that's a, you can put in why you wanna meet with me and everything, and we can set something up. So yeah, that's love to
Tiffany(49:24):
Beth Firefly counseling n.com mm-hmm
Beth(50:22):
(03:31):
Sounds great. Yeah. Love to.
Tiffany(50:25):
Thank you so much for your Time.
Beth(50:26):
You're welcome. That's great.
Beth (50:29):
Bye.
Outro (50:34):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.