Charging Premium Fees When You’ve Survived the Unthinkable: Jessica Malmberg’s $220 Leap.

Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free

 

In this episode, we’re speaking with Jessica Malmberg, a Santa Rosa-based therapist specializing in grief and trauma work for sensitive and neurodivergent individuals and families.

Jessica’s story is one of fierce vulnerability, survival, and reclamation.

After losing her first child and surviving cancer that nearly bankrupted her family, Jessica still found herself undercharging, overdelivering, and working late nights that stole time from her kids.

She joined the Lean In. MAKE BANK. Academy and took her practice—and her life—back.

 

In this episode, Jessica shares:

Why she was charging as low as $80–$130 while working with Medicaid and chasing no-shows;

How her deep empathy for clients’ pain came at the cost of her own financial stability—and how she finally flipped that script;

What it felt like to hear a voice say “Greedy, greedy, greedy” after her first price increase—and how she moved through it;

The evangelical and patriarchal conditioning that told her her worth came from service;

How her clinical work, creativity, and relationship with her kids transformed after she raised her fee to $220.

 

Resources mentioned:

LIMB Academy

FWF Calculator

Jessica’s Website

 

More about Jessica:

Jessica Malmberg is an LMFT in Santa Rosa, CA, who helps sensitive and neurodivergent adults and teens engage in the grief process and process their trauma. She is an advocate for grief and how it brings us more fully into life. She is a cancer survivor and a child-loss survivor, and greatly informed by her time in the underworld in dark times.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tiffany(00:00):

(00:01):
We're having a very moving money sessions set of episodes today. Today we're talking with Jessica Moberg a therapist in Santa Rosa who specializes in doing grief work with individuals and families. And in this episode, we're gonna talk about her journey to going from charging very low fees working on Medicare feeling frustrated and resentful, and just discontent with having clients who weren't really showing up and doing the work, canceling you know, maybe missing sessions with her so that they could go get their eyebrows done, or their Reiki practice, just feeling like she was one of the many providers who people were going to, but really not, they did not understand the value, the transformational value of the work she was doing. And she did not understand the value of the transformational work she was doing. She worked with us in our program, the Lean and Make Bank Academy, and has really changed how she's showing up clinically.
Tiffany(01:09):
She's raised her fees, she's now charging 2 25, and she's showing up differently as a parent. And by the way, my name's Tiffany McClain. I am the creator of the Lean In Make Bank Academy, where we help therapists actually step into a practice that creates ease and freedom and financial security, so you can actually show up and do the work you were meant to do. And one of the reasons I feel so moved, talking to Jessica today, you'll hear in this episode Jessica experienced a loss of her own first child. We talk about that today. And she also experienced cancer, which just wiped her and her family out financially. She later went on to become a therapist and even still struggled with charging enough having deep empathy for people's struggles because of her own experiences. And it took a lot of work for her to come to realize that it was her time to take responsibility for her financial security first, before she was privileging the financial security of the people she was serving.
Tiffany(02:11):
She really had to do deep work to understand how her conditioning, as someone who grew up in an evangelical church and taught her that her role as a woman was to serve losing her own child, being a cancer survivor, just continually being in a position where she was without told to play small experiencing deep grief, and then the work she did to truly show up, take up space say, I deserve this. My kids deserve a mom who's present, who's alive. What does it mean to truly, to truly live, not just metaphorically, but actually what does it take to live as experienced by someone who, who has a deep proximity to what it means to die? You're gonna be very moved. Get ready, grab some tissues. You're gonna be moved by this episode, and you're gonna understand why I do the work I do.
Tiffany(03:08):
It's not about the money. Yes, it's about the money. As, as Jessica says in this episode when a family has cancer, you need money. And I think there are so many ways that we, therapists can be in denial and avoidance and kind of think, who am I to raise my fees? Who am I to earn more? I'm being greedy. But when you're in a position where somebody in your family gets cancer, the one spouse can know you can't work 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week. You can't continue to show up fully for a job when you're managing the household, the finances, the emotional weight of sickness. We don't know life is gonna life, divorce, illness, death. I wish none of this upon you. And I want you to be in touch with reality that you are responsible for your financial security.
Tiffany(03:55):
Nobody is going to save you. And as hard as it is to hear that, as hard as it is to be in touch with that, my job is to bring you in touch with the reality of life, which also means the reality of death. And there's nobody who's gonna prepare you for that. There's nobody who's gonna take care of you except you. That is both a hard lesson, a hard thing to look at. And it's also, as Jessica will talk about today, the most freeing reality, the most freeing experience to look reality in the face and make decisions in your life out of conscious choice versus letting life happen to you. If you're new to my work, please go to actually just click below these show notes. You'll see our fun with fee, private practice fee calculator, where you can actually play around and see what does my fee actually need to be in order for me to have a life that takes care of me. A life where I can show up for my kids, a life where I can show up for myself, a life where I can have deep connected relationships, spaciousness, ease, and freedom, emotional and financial. What fee do I need to charge to set myself up for that? That's what you'll get if you scroll below this episode and click the show notes. You can also go to lean in, lean in, make bank.com/free, and we'll send you that ca calculator. All right, folks, let's dive in.
Intro (05:22):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. It, I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely Broke, man. If people knew who they were, Do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(06:05):
Okay, folks, I am here with Jessica Malmberg, so excited.
Jessica(06:11):
Me too.
Tiffany(06:12):
Jessica, iron Mountain . That's what your last name means. I just found out it's Swedish. Yes. Stone Iron Mountain. Yeah.
Jessica(06:22):
It helps. trust me.
Tiffany(06:24):
Yeah. Tell us a little bit about you and your practice today. Where are you located? Who do you work with?

(00:22):
Jessica(06:30):
I am in Santa Rosa, California, and I work with sensitive or neurodivergent adults and teens who are working with grief and trauma. Mm-Hmm . And families too.
Tiffany(06:42):
Beautiful. Yeah, that's a great
Jessica(06:44):
Niche. Thanks. I've been working on it. Good.
Tiffany(06:48):
Okay. So today we're gonna talk about increasing your fees mm-hmm
Jessica(06:53):
.
Tiffany(06:53):
And the impact this had on your clinical work. Mm. So take us back to before you made these changes, before you started doing your money work. Mm-Hmm . What was your life like? What was your practice like? What was your day to day?
Jessica(07:09):
Okay. Well, I think I, I aimed for like 19 clients a week. 20. I was taking Mecal Medicaid at the time, so that was a lot of clients at a hundred dollars a session. Some clients had 80 that I was seeing with cash. And my highest fee was probably one 30, so this was 2021, and I was going, okay. And I remember just not really having a clear idea. I was like, okay, so if I take more Medi-Cal clients, that means I just need to see more people. Okay. Just sort of like, what's that? Like, I'll try that. And I think I was seeing other friends who maybe had more business background making a lot more than I was, and working less and feeling jealous. Like I was kind of mad and thinking like, how can they do that? I was really in the, like, that's kind of snobby mentality.
Jessica(08:11):
But then I started to get frustrated with people no showing. That was the biggest thing with insurance. It was really easy for people to just not come or just sleep in till the moment of the session. And then I wake them up for it like week after week and just starting to feel like not respected people canceling. I, I really think one of the biggest things I joined limb for was the cancellation policy. Just feeling like, I want, I wanna be respected. This is my time. Like, I left my kids. I, I didn't go to yoga, you know, like, I'm here for you and you have no reason like to not do that because there's no punishment. And I was terrible at ending. Like, it's hard when, you know someone has all this trauma, why they're not coming, and then being like, sorry, I can't see you anymore. I just, I think now after this work, I would be better at it. But then I just was mad all the time. So that was, that was a big problem.
Tiffany(09:10):
This is so interesting. I think you're the first person actually who's ever talked about this on the money session. Okay. There you were, you were looking around at your friends mm-hmm . Feeling jealous that they were making more money, working fewer hours. Mm-Hmm . Wondering how could they could do that. Right. So that part, you know, we've heard some of that, but this thing around how you were feeling disrespected Yes. Yeah. Frustrated your clients were just canceling and not showing up. What, you know, I imagine that was going on for a while. Yeah. What started making you feel like, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm not putting up with this anymore? What shifted?
Jessica(09:46):
It really was your podcast. Oh,
Tiffany(09:48):

(00:43):
Interesting.
Jessica(09:49):
Yeah. So hearing other women have boundaries and then feel, and also sounding so loving at the same time. Like strong, loving, offering amazing work, and also having these boundaries. I was, I'd never seen that anywhere in my life. Like you were either, like literally the movie Devil Wears Prada was like my example of strong woman, but she was a total narcissistic. Like, there was nothing in the middle. So for me, I've done healing work my whole life. Just, people just didn't do that. So starting to hear that. And I remember meeting with said friend for lunch and being like, could I stop taking Medi-Cal? Like, it felt like, like so Antis sacred, just, and she's like, yes, you are a good therapist. You don't need to take Medi-Cal. And I just had this like, elated feeling driving home. Like literally, like, it felt like the world was just getting big.
Jessica(10:47):
And I felt so sad. I love these clients, but I was also like, this isn't great for them either. That there's no reason for them to grow more if they half-assed you this, you know, like, we're not getting anywhere. We've kind of hit a plateau in, in this kind of level. So I, I thought about it maybe another month and I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna do this the next day. My first three clients were Medi-Cal. All of them no. Showed, like, didn't just like cancel or late cancel, like, I had no idea. I was like the universe. It just felt like this direct like, yep, it's time to do this.
Tiffany(11:28):
That's wild. Talk about signs. I know. Clear signs. So something needs to change.
Jessica(11:32):
It's amazing what, and also like, it's okay to do this.
Tiffany(11:36):
Yes. They're not coming anyway.
Jessica(11:38):
Yeah, exactly.
Tiffany(11:40):
Make some changes. What, so you saw in 19, 20, maybe a week, if people showed up, how many people were on your whole case load?
Jessica(11:46):
Probably like 30. 30. 'cause I had once a month people too. So it's kind of hard to keep track. I also noticed that with my lower fee, even people who were paying would do this thing like, oh, I'm going to see my reiki person, so I'm not coming next week. Oh, I'm gonna, I was like, also, there was no reason for them to commit. Just not that they only need to do therapy, but I was one of many, and it was sort of a casual thing. Also, don't really need to grow. 'cause It's not really something I notice paying for. So I started to get that hit too. Like, okay, if it costs more and it, you have to make it an investment. So when I started to raise my fees, these people fell away and it felt okay. I was like, that's kind of a relief.
Tiffany(12:32):
Really. Interesting. So, so some signs were people not showing up and you feeling frustrated about that? Yes. Having no recourse. Yeah. Feeling, starting to notice, feeling jealous or envious of people with these women, with these boundaries who are Yes. And charging these fees. And then also realizing that you were just I love this one of many just people would, yes. Your clients would come or not come. They might switch you off with their reiki person or they're mm-hmm . Waxer gonna give 'em a Brazilian that week or like what, what were
Jessica(13:03):
Exactly Yeah.

(01:04):
Tiffany(13:04):
On par with these other treatments. Yes. Okay. So you're like, I gotta do something different. Actually. Talk about if you will, you, you mentioned your kids mm-hmm . Missing yoga. So kind of how, how are you showing up as a parent in these days? Yeah. When you were kind of seeing casual clients.
Jessica(13:22):
I was working too late. Oh, you were? I would, I would get, I would like three days a week. I would work till six 15, but that meant I was home at like 7, 7 15. And my kids, that's the only time we had. And so, and some, and they were struggling a bit. And so when I started to hear literally other moms on the podcasting, like, I get, I wanna be there for my kids. I remember one woman saying like, you don't ever have to do something that hurts yourself for your clients. I was like, what? Yeah, this isn't great. Like, I can see 19 people a week, but then I'm in bed Saturday with a headache and I'm not present and I'm not home cooking dinner. We're eating really late. So I started to see like, yeah, I can move this. I don't have to do this. So I started to like bump up when my last time was, and it was fine. I was surprised how that easily that went.
Tiffany(14:21):
How old were your kids at that time before you started making these changes?
Jessica(14:25):
Okay. I have to, they're 15, like 12 and nine.
Tiffany(14:32):
Wow. Yeah. Okay. So they're getting outta school, having, doing whatever they do after school, doing all that. And then you get home around seven 15 and are starting interact with them. At that time.
Jessica(14:42):
I would see them when they got out, I would bring them home, so I'd have a little time to connect, which was great. Yeah. But still, like, they need, my husband needed help too. He was doing all the homework. All the food.
Tiffany(14:54):
Interesting. So when you thought about, okay, you've, you've started to mention this a little bit, but when you thought, okay, I'm not, I'm not putting up with this anymore. I'm gonna change my schedule, raise my fees, have people who actually committed, what scared you about making these changes?
Jessica(15:10):
Well, when it came to the people who were consistent and had a lower fee and I knew were engaged in the work, I was really scared of taxing them too much or offending them or being Oh, oh my God. I felt self selfish. Like when I first raised my fee at 1 75, literally that week, the whole week there was this voice going, greedy, greedy, greed. It was hilarious and, and awful. And I talked to my therapist who was charging 1 75 also, and he had been doing the work for 40 years. And I was like, I am so scared to tell you that I wanna charge the same that you do, and I'm afraid you're gonna feel like it's disrespectful because you have all this experience. It was so brave. Mm-Hmm . I didn't wanna tell him. Mm
Tiffany(15:59):
Mm I'm also noting that you raised it to his fee and not initially not. Right.
Jessica(16:03):
Exactly. That was probably like, oh, I can't go charge more.
Tiffany(16:08):

(01:25):
Yeah. It makes me think about, so that week you know, you, you're, you're laughing a little bit 'cause it's like, huh, it's intense and like this, this the real feeling of the, the, the mantra. Greedy, greedy, greedy in your head as you're making these changes. And you went to 1 75 from, what were people paying you around at that time?
Jessica(16:27):
That my average was probably one 30. Okay. Because some people were paying one 50, but some people were like, one 20 or even 100. I would do this weird thing where if people thought I had their insurance and I would give them what it would've paid me. Like, why that doesn't make sense. But, you know, the things we do
Tiffany(16:47):
, the things we do. . So you this, you were so, you were terrified of just with the feeling of I'm, I'm greedy Yes. Telling your own therapist about the changes you're making. Yeah. Anything else that felt scary about that week of Yeah. Raising fees, having those conversations
Jessica(17:04):
So much around just feeling like, why do I think I'm worth that if, and also, you know, I had so many years I had cancer when the kids were young, we were broke. We were like, we should have gone bankrupt. My tax person told us later, but we were so broke and it was such a struggle for like a decade. So I know what it's like to struggle and it's really hard to then ask other, I don't know, you make this assumption that other people are struggling like that. And then also feeling like, oh, there was such a huge thing in stepping into authority. Like, I have something valuable. And I really, oh my gosh, so much around being a woman, realizing my training is so complete around this. There's so many messages that like, no, you're here. Don't make waves. Don't be noticed. Don't think that you have something better than the man. And I think a lot of it comes from church too. I was really into church. I went to study religious studies in college and people told me, oh, you can marry a pastor.
Tiffany(18:14):
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica(18:15):
Isn't that nuts?
Tiffany(18:17):
We're gonna get, okay. We're gonna get, there's so much I wanna get to in the deep dive, so, wow. But we'll, we'll touch on it now because I think it's really important in terms of this one piece you said around being a cancer survivor. Mm-Hmm . You knew what it felt like to be struggling both in your health. Like this is mm-hmm
Jessica(18:35):
. Right?
Tiffany(18:35):
This is serious. And the, and the way that impacted your finance, your finances, like my life depends on having the money to get these treatments. So when you went to raise your fees, you were I'll use, I, I I'm like, it's not quite, I'll use the word projecting, but also the deep empathy of, you know, like what it's like to struggle. So in some way, you were making the assumption that your clients were struggling in the same way you had been struggling in that period. Yes. Yes. And you almost like the, you could save them from by by, by keeping their feet low, you could save them the pain Yes. That you were experiencing at that time in your life. Is this something of what was going on? Yep.
Jessica(19:19):
Yeah. It's strange, like realizing how much of it is projection and that other people have more stability than it appears or that it's worth it to them to, to do this. And then also to get used to the fact that that money, what didn't mean I was gonna be driving a Ferrari, which it felt like, to me at first I was like, I could get a croissant .
Tiffany(19:44):
I love that your, your Ferrari equivalent is getting a croissant that day. I know.

(01:46):
Jessica(19:51):
It felt so amazing. And I felt also so guilty about it. But then realizing like, yeah, this fee just means I can pay my bills, but not even all of them, you know?
Tiffany(20:03):
Wow.
Jessica(20:04):
So much. It's realizing it.
Tiffany(20:06):
Yeah. It's so complicated. What what's your fee now?
Jessica(20:13):
Two 20.
Tiffany(20:14):
Two 20. Holy mackerel. What did it feel like when you, when you charged that for the first time, when you, when you made the decision, it's gonna be two 20, I'm letting people know. Talk a little bit about that feeling.
Jessica(20:26):
It's like going through it all over again. Mm-Hmm . It's like, I get you. I got used to 200 and that felt good. And then two 20, I raised it and it was like crickets for a while. And I was like, oh, that's the spot. That's the spot. That's too much. It's just like this wild back and forth of like, this is crazy. No one else is doing this. And then I'll come back to limb and the feed and be like, this is normal. This is okay, this can happen. And then just like, you're, you're crazy. What are you doing? You're selfish. And then, no, this allows me to offer so much more when I have time, when I have time to think and write and be creative. There's gonna be so much more coming outta this. That was the biggest thing that allowed me to do it.
Tiffany(21:12):
Wow. So, so that's really interesting. You're talking about ear earlier you were talking about all the conditioning from having an evangelical upbringing, being a woman in our society, having cancer and surviving that and knowing what that's like. All the messaging that says you are lucky to even be alive. Right. You are lucky to even be alive on all these fronts. Mm-Hmm. Going into limb and having a whole community and a container on the other side that says you are allowed to want a croissant. You are even allowed to get down Rory if you want, like, are holding you in mind with kindness, curiosity, and generosity. Like, you, you, you can have these things and in so doing, you're actually gonna be able to show up with more creativity and play and presence.
Jessica(21:54):
Yes. Yes. That was the biggest part. Like the part in ware we're like, if you had the resources, what would you do? That changed everything for me. Hmm. It was this real switch where I was like, well, obviously I would work on my grief work. I love this work. I wanna dive into ritual work. I wanna write, I have so much to say about this. And then just like literally since then, I've had more energy than I've had in years. It was, it was, you get bumps
Tiffany(22:22):
As a talking I can feel it. I can feel it. I know.
Jessica(22:26):

(02:07):
It was so clear. And it, I got the sense too, like, yeah, other people work with grief, but not the way that you do. You get to do your thing. That was huge. Like Yeah. The book has not been written. Your book The Away. Yeah. Your book gets to be your book. And, and your, your deep understanding of grief from my loss of a child, my deep, deep dives into the underworld. All of this. And I love this. And oh, this was the another thing that helped me. I'm in this other Mighty Networks group called Soulful Living. And it's beautiful. We meet weekly and it's all about soul and living a soulful life. And we did this meditation with a plant, and I saw this plant with these beautiful red flowers, and you're just supposed to sit with it and kind of talk with it.
Jessica(23:10):
And I got this hit that like, those flowers are bright red, they're beautiful, they're not beige, they're bright red and they're attracting these insects and they're feeding the insects and it's okay to be bright and beautiful and loud. Wow. So these two things which I was taught were always separate. Soulfulness, you're gonna be poor, you want money, you're selfish. And then like, putting these two things together, like I can be soulful and have enough money. It blew everything into a different place. And I looked up the teachers, 'cause I was like, oh, these amazing teachers, they're so giving, they were charging in the two hundreds when I looked up their therapy costs. And I was like, oh, K. This is okay. This is okay. That's why they can do this work. Yes. That's why they have this group. That's why they have these amazing offerings no one else has. Oh,
Tiffany(24:08):
I love this soulful living folks. Go Google. Soulful living. Okay.
Jessica(24:13):
Yeah. It's so, it's so, it's a beautiful community, especially in these times.
Tiffany(24:20):
What is it's really interesting to think about even as you're talking kind of how, how you were, the, the energy you had when you were talking about what your practice was like before versus now, when you're seeing these vibrant red flowers taking up space in the world, being seen, how has your clinical work changed from the days when you were having people show up or not and being resentful and envious and, oh my gosh. How are you different as a clinician now?
Jessica(24:44):
I am so much more awake. I don't, I'm not doing phone sessions, which is really helpful. I have a DDI can't, I need to make eye contact. Like those are, I will do it, but I'd so much rather not. Knowing people are going to come knowing they've signed this contract with me, that there's no can or there's, you know, limited cancellations. I feel so much more secure. So I prepare more. I have energy to prepare. And even working with you, Tiffany, and hearing the way that you ask us questions, I feel like I'm asking better questions
Tiffany(25:17):
Because
Jessica(25:17):
I've done such deep work and I, I feel more confident. And, you know, I started asking one client questions and she never came back. And I guess she didn't wanna do
Tiffany(25:29):
Yeah. She doesn't want that work.
Jessica(25:31):
No. But it was like, okay. Also that's been happening where my practice has dwindled down further than I was comfortable mm-hmm. Because of this. And I've had to really sit with like, you're building this foundation. Mm-Hmm. And also this sense like, the universe has your back, this work wants to be done, so just keep going. Like, I've been, I have been wildly emotional, but also like this real sense of like, this has a momentum to it and you just gotta keep going with it and it'll be okay. So I feel a lot more interested. I'm more, because I'm seeing fewer clients, I get to take more walks. I'm meeting more friends, and I have more energy to be curious. I
Tiffany(26:14):
Love that we're talking to you in this moment where you are experiencing the dip. Uhhuh you, your practice is not full uhhuh. You're not seeing as many clients as you want. And, and yet you're still talking about the aliveness. Yeah. And you have a trust of where it's gonna go. And you're feeling more present in your work than you were before. Yeah. Can you talk about how you as we call it the messy middle, how do you, how are you surviving or coping with this messy middle period of your practice?

(02:28):
Jessica(26:43):
Well, one thing is, I, in the middle of limb, I just decided I wanna just start this grief ritual that I've been wanting to do. And whether I'm ready or not, I am, I mean, I've done the five, I did a five month training for this, and I have my own deep experience. So I just started planning it in December. And so now we have it for March. And so I'm putting so much energy into that happening and getting so much feedback of like, thank you for putting this into the community that's really helping feeling like, so yeah, the money part isn't quite there yet, but I'm also feeling like where I'm stepping into is totally happening and I'm getting to make these connections where people are knowing me as this now. Like I'm there for child loss and infant loss. I'm here for ritual work, which is really helpful with trauma. It really helps our brains and our souls connect. And so that's helping. Having that thing that I'm really looking forward to.
Tiffany(27:43):
It makes me think about this the, the, my word for this year is spaciousness. Yeah. And I think about if you had, you know, 20 or 25 clients paying you your fee now and you would just rock and rolling in, it actually doesn't afford you the space to step back and get in touch with Here's what I wanna be doing, actually. Yeah. I'm thinking about this. Yeah. Right. This grief work around child loss. No, what that the, I'm getting goosebumps. Like the space that actually needs to come to fruition and hold that and then create something out of it and bring people to that. You can't do that when you're No. When you're full of people and ultimately you're gonna be impacting a lot of lives and also having a lot more financial abundance because you took this space and navigated the space to get to where you need to go.
Jessica(28:27):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I see that. And I see how much your work impacts the world. Like you podcast the people that you're inspiring, giving women this, this like torch to be like, go do your work. Like, that's so massive. And then all their clients get that. Like, that has given me this sense of like, yeah, you can impact a lot of people. You don't just have to stick with this little group here. Yeah.
Tiffany(28:52):
Yeah. It's hard to hold that in mind. I'm just like, I'm just talking to Jessica. It's hard to, to hold in mind the rippled effects of, you know, taking the time to do this work actually.
Jessica(29:03):
Yeah. It's huge. And the part in the beginning of the intro with this woman says, if people knew who they were, that makes me wanna cry. Like every time, every
Tiffany(29:16):
Time I still listen to that, like in goosebumps every time I forget who even said it, but I, I remember that moment. I'm like, oh, so moving. Yeah.
Jessica(29:23):
Yes. And I, I'm feeling that like, yeah, we are not, they say this in the soulful life too. We are not here to be small. Yeah. And we have to, we work with the predator energy that tells us like, you can't do it. Go back to bed. What are you thinking that the remedy for that is A, having friends with you and b saying you to it. And being like, ,
Tiffany(29:44):
You. That's right.
Jessica(29:45):
And I'm gonna do this. I'm claiming this. This is what I meant to do here. Yeah.
Tiffany(29:49):
Taking up that space. Taking up that space. What is your we talked about how your practice is different. How is your day-to-day life different now? How are you showing up diff differently as a, a mom, as a spouse, as a friend? What's that like?
Jessica(30:06):

(02:49):
Yeah, I'm definitely have more time for friends and connecting. And that feels beautiful with my kids. Like last night I got to sit down with my daughter and we're doing the safe and sound protocol and part of that is co-regulating. So I just sat with her and rubbed her feet and it felt so beautiful. And still we're doing a no screen week. So that feels so peaceful. Yeah. I feel like I have more bandwidth to just be like, yeah, I need to take your phone and make those changes on it. So you're not on this all the time. That's hard. It's annoying, but I have more space to do that. Yeah. I feel a little guilty when I tell my husband about this 'cause he's a middle school teacher for special ed. So when I'm like, I don't have to work so hard and now I get to love my work and he's just like, that's great. I mean, he's very happy for me, but I feel guilty for the people who don't have, that's not how their work is.
Tiffany(31:04):
Can we take a moment to talk about that? I feel that too. There's something like, my partner works a eight hour day, you know, five days a week, and then he tries to fit in a social life and get to the gym at like eight o'clock at night after the kids. And I'm like, I gotta go to the gym at two o'clock if I want to. And, and there is some, like, there's certainly an imbalance of like, why, how am I allowed to have this? So is this Yeah. People in our lives can, how do you kind of navigate or think about this experience?
Jessica(31:31):
I feel like I pick and choose where I'm really expansive about it. Like in limb, I can totally go there and with other people and I like to maybe drop little hints about it, but I am, I dunno, I'm kind of careful about it because there, I do hear this, one of my best friends said, well, that's just how it is. You just have to work hard and you just have to, it's just, you know, that's just how it is. And that is how capitalism is for most people and we're really challenging that. But it's I do feel like, yeah. Why, why I, I think about this with high school, why do we send kids to school seven hours? Then they come home and they do three hours of homework. We are training them to just be fried, burnt out zombies. Yeah. Who achieve a lot. Yeah. So I'm really like looking at my kids' school and giving them different options. This is ridiculous. I love it. And some kids like it, but some really can't do that. And I don't blame them. Yeah.
Tiffany(32:35):
And also I, you know, you're paying attention to what are, what are these schools training them for? Yeah. Did we get trained for as in the educational system as women folks who come from a conservative church, uhhuh like, what are we getting trained for? And this thing around I I wanna highlight this. I think it's important when we have partners or friends or our therapist colleagues who say, this is how it is. Or they don't know how to break out it. It can come with some it could be guilt. What, what whatever feeling we have. And then I also think about the work I did, the work you did to break out of it. It was so hard. Not necessarily hard, like I'm working 40 hours or 80 hours a week, but hard like emotionally. Yes. And secondly what it takes to say, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. Not everybody's willing to do that.
Jessica(33:19):
No. And it's terrifying. Like I have, I have gotten mad at you privately, like, why you could get that
Tiffany(33:24):
Me publicly. Tell me why. Tell me why. What have, why
Jessica(33:28):
She, why, why did I do this? Why did I could, I mean, I just did it last week. You know, like why I, I could see 19 people again. I had steady income. Why did I do this? Why'd I shake things up? Yeah. At least I knew I had something steady.
Tiffany(33:43):
Yes.
Jessica(33:43):
And then to like constantly being like facing people going, well I, I don't know if it's worth that much. Or, you know, doing a consult. Then they don't come. It's a little more work this way. Like, it's not for, it's not everybody, but I, I do feel confident that I have something really good. But yeah, it's a really up and down with, I just feel like the ground is, is forming and it, it takes a process just like trauma work, just like any work like it, it forms and then it kind of crumbles and then it forms and then it kind of crumbles. But more and more, especially with what's happening in the whole world right now, I'm like, we need to have lives that are sustainable because then we make better decisions. Then we have room for empathy for other people, then we grieve and we're not taking our out on someone that's a 400 year old problem. Yes. You know, like, I really feel like it's the problem of the world that we don't have space to actually feel feelings and deal with our stuff.
Tiffany(34:42):
I wanna, I wish people could see you. Maybe one day we'll put this out on, on YouTube. We'll have some, we'll hire someone who can do that for us. I want you to pay attention to, to, to, I, I know you're listening to this folks and I wanna highlight it. Jessica's talking about she's really holding two, there are two parts of her speaking right now. Mm-Hmm . There's a part who is, has faith in where you're going understands the, the long game understands the importance of having spaciousness and ease to play this bigger game. And then the other part that's, like, Tiffany this isn't working right. I dunno how this is gonna work. I can't get the pieces together. Clients aren't calling like, what the? Why am I doing this? It's not all rosy people. Like, no, like just the end.
Tiffany(35:23):
And it's Roy, it's raw and edgy. I have it too. Like what am I I'm in the, it makes me think about the clinical work I have done with my clients back when I saw individual clients, the work we do with our Lim students and the work I do in my own therapy, which is this messy middle of, I'll use myself as an example. I need different kinds of relationships, friendships, intimate connection, community. Mm-Hmm. So I'm saying goodbye if you listening to this mom. Sorry. there's a way I'm saying goodbye. I'm like old family relationships that don't work. Friend relationships don't work. Relationships with my partner that don't work. But I, I haven't gotten to the other side yet. So it's this like loneliness. I'm actually getting through this. But the past couple of years have been like a deep loneliness. Yeah, yeah. Kind of going back to old relationships and they don't work again. And I'm sad, but I know what doesn't work anymore. I know what it feels like, but I'm not to where I want. And it's a, it's a very lonely, growth oriented grieving place. Yeah. Yeah. You are in a now of like, you know, you can't go back to 19 clients paying you 75 cents mm-hmm . But you don't know how to get these clients paying you 200 plus mm-hmm. Consistently. Right. And so like, wow. It's this painful limbo and it is painful.

(03:10):
Jessica(36:31):
You really, I really do need faith. And though, you know, my kids and husband will tell you I have big dips. I also do feel different this time. I don't feel the absolute like I'm a such an idiot. What? Yes. It's more, it's, it's like, it, this is scary. But you know, you have something that's a really good idea. Like that doesn't go away. There's like a hold there that's really staying. And I have a little bit of like, so I have 12 clients this week. It's kind of nice. It feels really good actually. Yeah. I'm gonna just enjoy that. 'cause I have a plan. I'm meeting people. Yes. I'm building this network and I really see how it's gonna work. Like I'm, I'm kind of over one of the humps of like, yeah, this is gonna work
Tiffany(37:16):
For folks listening too. If you, if you are in that place where you are seeing your 20 or 30 clients a week, and you are, you know, even hearing this story, I'm like, 12 clients sounds nice, but I don't, if you're thinking, I don't think I can survive that dip or I, I don't know if it's worth it to get to the other side. At the end we'll be giving you Jessica's contact information. I think your retreat would be a really helpful place for therapists who are trying to navigate like, what is this middle place or even working with you one-on-one. Yeah. How do I get there? Especially if you have loss or grief or if you mm-hmm. You might think about well we'll get to that. Actually. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about both your cancer, surviving cancer and also losing a child. Yeah. And how that, how that, where that came in your life and how it's informed your, your life as it is today. Yeah.
Jessica(38:02):
Well my, my first child auto was born in 2008 and he lived eight days and that just changed everything. I was 32 and we just had such hopefulness, such positive, like we're gonna have this natural birth and all natural life. And of course, you know, you haven't had kids yet, so everything's gonna be organic and perfect. And like, and then we just got hit with part of a reality of life of that something hap things happen you cannot expect. And you have, don't have control that you think you have. And, and so it was an injury with a cord that happened a few days before the birth. He was a healthy like nine pound baby. Beautiful. And we held him those days and we took him home to, to die at home, which took tremendous strength. Called our family in and we had to let 'em go.
Jessica(39:06):
So I learned a, that our culture has no structure for death or grief. Like none. It's been stolen away Hmm. Like time after time and we replace it with stuff and things or work. But I was, I'm too emotional for that. That's just not who I am. I had to grieve deeply and wail and people were freaked out. Hmm. And they didn't know what to do with me. I know. I was scared of people too. Then when people died I didn't know how to do it. So I had to really deep dive. We did a lot of nature walking. And then a lot of writing I wrote and wrote and wrote. But I loved learning about other cultures, grief practices and that there were healthy ways to do this.
Jessica(39:52):
And then when I got cancer, that was five years later. So I had our two daughters. One was 10 months old and one was three. And we were so mad just like, how could I be having to leave my kids again? Like how could we be facing such horrible loss again? We were not ready. My husband was really sick the year before that. Probably because of the grief. I'm pretty sure I got cancer because of my deep grief. Just immune systems change with that in the cancer time, you know, people came together to help us. I was bald and I started looking at therapy programs. I think my husband was interested in it. So I was like looking at it for him. And then I was like, if I live, I wanna do what I want. Like, it is amazing what mortality, like really knowing our mortality can do to be like, this is short.
Jessica(40:47):
Even if I live to be 90, that's not that long. This is not forever. Like we need to do what we came here to do. Like, why the not we're going to die no matter what. So I, I started a class at the jc like I had like a half inch of hair. I was still in chemo, but I stepped over the door to that classroom. Tears in my eyes. 'cause I was on a path and I just knew, like, I felt this warmth, like this is what I wanna do and I'm giving it to myself. I don't, I was a massage therapist before that. I was a songwriter. I love doing those things, but they don't, they're hard to make a living and to be stepping into like, I am going to take a little bit here. I'm gonna take money for education. I'm gonna take time. And it felt so beautiful.
Tiffany(41:36):
Well, I'm thinking about the loss of your son and not having the, the ritual or the Yeah. Space to grieve and then getting cancer yourself when you have your two daughters still there, still needing you so young. Yeah. And having that statement. I was very struck by the statement if I live dot, dot, dot. Yeah. Being you being so young and faced with the mortality of seeing your son and now you how did really asking a, you have to ask a serious question. If I live bop, bop, bop, how did having to hold that question in mind change who you were as a person and how you showed up in the world?
Jessica(42:19):
Oh God. I remember this day, fairly soon after the diagnosis. I mean, there was a little time before I talked to like the second round of doctors where I was just kind of floating in this not knowing what the prognosis was and stuff. And I took the curls to the park and sat down in the grass. And I remember just this realization of like, I have spent so much time worrying about what other people think of me way too much energy. And just realizing like, this is just mine. This life is mine. Like it's not theirs. Mm-Hmm . It was so clear. And I felt this big spaciousness and freedom now with that would come and go with the trauma. I would get small and angry and resentful and hateful and worrying again about people and then opening up. So it's still like that. Yeah. But I did have a taste of that.
Jessica(43:18):
Like, what really matters? Like what really matters here. I wanna, I wanna raise my kids. That's the biggest thing. I want to raise my kids. I want them to grow up with a mom. And then I also wanna be bigger in the world and like, take more risks and, and it like I remember being in that JC class full of all these kids and the teacher put on this music. He's like, let's dance. And I was the only one who got up and dance. 'cause I'm like, people, there's no reason to care. Like, please dance. I didn't say that, but I was just like, yeah, we're alive. Let's do that.
Tiffany(43:56):
Yeah. We're alive.
Jessica(43:57):

(03:31):
Yeah.
Tiffany(43:58):
Yeah. Very moving to hear. And I can, I can only imagine the power of your clinical work and the, and the work you do with folks in these groups.
Jessica(44:09):
Right. I I love that. I know that, I know that deep dark place and I know that death is real. I know that it's scary to have to walk through life once you know that it's also really freeing. Like it's both, I'm probably more scared than other people and I'm also more free. Yeah.
Tiffany(44:28):
You
Jessica(44:28):
Know, it's like these two things.
Tiffany(44:30):
Yes, that's right. How this is kind of stepping into this I'm also now suddenly thinking like, oh, and there are the financial realities of having to pay for that. Yeah. So even thinking about like, you're having all these just emotional thinking about the, the gravity of life mortality. Are you gonna be around a parent? Your daughters like just this, the resentment, the hate, like all of these feelings. And then meanwhile you have to have money to pay. How did, how did that, can you talk a little bit about that reality and how that informed h how you think about money and how, what was happening then and how you thinking about it now based on this experience?
Jessica(45:08):
Oh yeah. I gotta say like, Kaiser really showed up for us. And if you like, especially with cancer, if you're going through something and you can't pay, you tell them they have money for that. So they, they covered all of the, what's the money that you pay every month?
Tiffany(45:28):
I
Jessica(45:29):
Dunno, the premium.
Tiffany(45:30):
Yeah. Yes.
Jessica(45:31):
They waived that for a year. Wow. They covered, I mean the medication was crazy. Like the shots I had to take in my stomach were like $1,500 each, which helps your immune system stay alive. Like, so that part was good. The part that's hard is my husband worked for himself. Oh. So that's where the money is needed. When someone, when a family has cancer, the partner can't work. That's the only, we didn't have any vacation pay, safety net stuff and he was drowning. So that's where it was, you know, my awareness grows of like, yeah, they do these go GoFundMe. You wonder what it's for. It's because people can't work 40 hours a week in that circumstance because there's a lot to do. But also because they're struggling, the partner struggles. It's really hard on them. So for years we just learned to not buy anything.

(03:52):
Jessica(46:25):
And it was okay. I did, I got hand-me-downs. I have two sisters, so they gave me their clothes, my stepmom. Some people would gift me things. We never went out to eat. We just made our own food. And that became a rhythm and it became normal. And it was, it was okay. I was jealous of things. Like I tell, you know, once I started to be able to buy croissants for my kids once in a while, I was so excited. And I, I told them like, oh, I remember telling them like that week. Remember when I couldn't buy you anything? And they were like, when was that?
Tiffany(46:58):
Yeah.
Jessica(47:00):
So that was the realization too. Like, this stuff isn't what makes them happy. Yeah. It's, it's our quality of love and time. And so Yeah. But I've had to get out of that like feeling really scared, buying things. Just that feeling of like, that's, that's gonna get all this interest on credit cards and you know, like everything just felt so scary. So that's been a while to let it, okay, we can go out to eat. Okay. We can buy clothes. I can buy you makeup. Yeah. Because they wear makeup now.
Tiffany(47:36):
Oh.
Jessica(47:36):
And they have all these products that we never had. I don't know what this stuff is. Like base and like setting spray. Like what
Tiffany(47:44):
You don't need setting spray. I don't ask me. I don't know what setting. I don't know. I don't know.
Jessica(47:48):
I have to work through this money issue of like, just because I never bought setting spray doesn't mean I can do setting spray
Tiffany(47:56):
. It's time.
Tiffany(47:58):
It's interesting to think about too. I I, I don't even think interesting is not even the the right word. The right word, but I'm, I'm that statement you said about when a family has cancer, that's when you need money. Yeah. So I think about all these therapies you listening right now, therapist audience kind of like, am I greedy? Am I bad? I, you know, if I want the Ferrari or the croissant, is that okay? I can't raise my fees for that. You have no idea what's gonna happen tomorrow. And if you have no retirement, no , you have a ton of debt. Yes. You're not gonna be able to work. Your partner may not be able to work who's in ticket. Like, like hope. I hope none of that. I wish none of that for anyone listening. Exactly. But divorces happen. Sickness happens.
Tiffany(48:39):
Death happens. And if we are in a foggy, you said something earlier about being awake. You are awake now and we can hear all the different reasons. Uhhuh things have forced you to wake up. And then even going through limb and having to put all these things together like, I'm awake. I can't be in denial. Mm-Hmm . Something about becoming awake forces us to make decisions about our practice, our finances, our schedule in a way that when we're kind of unconscious, we don't, we're going through repeating patterns. We're not really, we're not really holding reality in mind. We're not really respecting reality. Yeah. And I hear you saying you came into reality.
Jessica(49:19):

(04:13):
Yeah. And it just feels amazing to me to, to tell myself it is okay to have a cushion. Yeah.
Tiffany(49:26):
Oh yes.
Jessica(49:27):
Oh my gosh. Like I've gotten over that guilt of like, we don't have to be living hand to mouth forever. We get to have a cushion. And we have lived through many things where we needed that. Yes. Yes. And it feels so good. It's like honey, you know, that like thick kind of like feeling of like, this is for our safety. We get to be, create safety. Yes. It's been a huge thing to allow that.
Tiffany(49:53):
Yeah. I mean, oh God. Yes. That's right. And fortunately, Kaiser, and I also wanna say Kaiser is a massive scaled institution. Mm-Hmm . And I, I I think about the old Jessica who was like, if I raise my fees, I'm hurting my clients. I I wanna be able to take care of them. Like Kaiser took care of me. Right. Has been around for bajillions of years and bajillions of dollars. Yes. So we now give back. Right. We are at the point, you or I at the point where we have our cushion uhhuh, no matter what happens, we're gonna be able to take care of ourselves. Yes. We have all the money in the world. We are inevitably going to find ways to give back. 'cause That's what we do. But we can't do, we can't start that way. Yeah. We can't start that.
Jessica(50:32):
Yeah. No, I really have this sense now of like, I have, I have been, I was struggling poor for so long. I had a breakdown in my internship. I got an ulcer. Wow. Like it was really hard to do that right after cancer and to have no money doing it. So when people ask me for a lower fee, who actually know, have money, I'm like, this is my time. Yes. This is my time to have enough.
Tiffany(50:56):
Yes.
Jessica(50:57):
I'm crying now thinking of it, but it really is amazing to say that to myself and to say, no, I don't have to give 'cause like what, what you say? I'm not, I don't have to supplement your retirement. I don't have to supplement your kids' college. My kids need to go to college. So this is what I, this is my fee right now.
Tiffany(51:12):
Yeah. It's my fee. This is my time. Yeah. I'm not supplementing anyone else's life. Yeah. I take responsibility for my own life. My
Jessica(51:20):
Body has been through enough. Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany(51:25):
If folks wanna work with you, people listening right now who have maybe suffered loss, maybe a death of a child, maybe a death of a different level and cancer themselves. Mm-Hmm. Or they just resonate with the who you are and how you're showing up in the world and the journey you've been on. How can folks work with you?
Jessica(51:43):
How can they call me or get ahold of me? Oh, what's the

(04:34):
Tiffany(51:45):
Best way?
Jessica(51:45):
Yeah. They can email me [e-mail] or I just got this new domain grief therapist ca.com. That's my website so we can get on
Tiffany(52:00):
Great.
Jessica(52:01):
My contact on there as well.
Tiffany(52:03):
So people can go there already. Grief therapist ca.com and they can
Jessica(52:07):
Yeah. Website's done. I just added that domain to it. Yeah. Or jessica moberg.com is there too.
Tiffany(52:14):
So we'll put those in our show notes. And did you say, did I make this up and I Did you say something? Yeah. Tell me about the groups you have in mind or that are coming. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jessica(52:24):
The, the grief ritual? Yeah. Yeah. I am, I have it on the wall over there. I it's gonna be a day long at the end of March 10 to six 30. And it's, it's, it's the idea we're entering ritual space together, which means it's sort of a time out of time and we're all agreeing that we're going to allow our grief to come forward here. And so we do some music to kind of get us into that space. We do some writing shuttles things like I remember, or I didn't get to say Goodbye. You start things every sentence with that and it brings it forward. And then we build an altar where people will put their, we make it beautiful flowers, plants, water, pictures. And then we set this space, and that's the other world. And we go up to the other world and let our grief flow if, if it wants to flow or we support people.
Jessica(53:18):
And, and then when people come back from the altar, we say, welcome home. Mm-Hmm . And it's, it's an amazing experience because here we get so shamed for our grief and, and this ritual we are feeding the world. You can feel how it's feeding the soil of the culture. So it's, I'm so excited to offer that. And it's particularly for people who've lost babies. Oh. Because it's such a unique loss that people kind of gloss over sometimes because we didn't have them that long. So it feels amazing for people to just get this like, yes, this is a massive loss and a massive love. And give that to them.
Tiffany(53:54):
Is it in person or virtual
Jessica(53:55):

(04:55):
In person? Yeah.
Tiffany(53:57):
I have someone who's not in this state who I'm like, I want her to come to this. So if you ever do virtual or you know, have people,
Jessica(54:04):
Well, some people are flying in for it. Yeah.
Tiffany(54:07):
Okay. Well I don't think this episode is gonna go, I don't know when this episode's gonna go out, but I, I trust that you're gonna be offering this again, so with people who are listening now, I'll Yes. Just be in touch.
Jessica(54:16):
Mm-Hmm . Yeah. I wanna be doing them. And it won't just be for infant loss, will have just more broad grief rituals as well.
Tiffany(54:22):
I like this. I do like this. The, the focus, I think it's helpful to have a, this particular focus on infant loss, for example.
Jessica(54:30):
Yeah. Thank you.
Tiffany(54:31):
Yeah.
Jessica(54:32):
And I wanna offer that to families too. Like a session of, or a group of four rituals that we can do just as a family. We can do this individually too, of work where you don't just have to talk about it, but we can enact what it feels like. We can enact the grief. So that's another thing I'm developing.
Tiffany(54:48):
Wonderful. Yeah. I'm gonna put this person in touch with you anyway. Okay. Family member and then maybe I don't know if she'll call. That would be
Jessica(54:54):
Beautiful.

(05:16):
Tiffany(54:55):
One day she can. Yeah. thank you Jessica. Such a, you such a moving hour I've spent with you. We definitely went over, I told folks who were listening. I said, Jessica, we're gonna do this about 35, 40 minutes. And I, we just did not, I'm
Jessica(55:09):
Terrible at
Tiffany(55:10):
That. No, this is, I was, nobody's terrible. This is I, I needed to hear it. People need to hear it. And good being brave enough to put yourself out in the world and take up the space even when it's scary, so you can show up and have these kinds of conversations with us.
Jessica(55:26):
Well, thank you for this amazing gift that you put into the world. I'm so grateful for it.
Outro(55:35):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to. Right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.