Every Therapist’s Worst Nightmare: A Disciplinary Complaint Because Your Fees Are Too High.

Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free 

 In the sequel to last week’s episode, we’re once again speaking with Jesse Kauffman, a Licensed Master Social Worker and LIMB Grad based in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  

If you haven’t already listened to part one of his story, make sure you check it out here. (We’ll be waiting right here while you catch up.)

This week, Jesse walks us through his experience with what many of us would consider to be our worst nightmare.  

He took the leap, raised his fee, charged more than anyone in his area… and then had a client lodge a complaint against him with his board.  

And not only did they lodge the complaint, but an investigation was actually opened.  

In this episode, Jesse will describe what that experience was like and what he learned along the way.

 

In this episode, Jesse shares: 

His harrowing story of stepping into his full fee even when it meant having a licensing complaint lodged against him; 

How he sought support to make it through this difficult situation; 

How liability insurance came into play and how much it cost him to secure a lawyer to assist him; 

Why it’s vital to keep your notes up to date in order to have a premium fee practice (keep listening to hear how this comes into play); 

Exactly what you need to say if someone ever lodges a complaint against you or says your fee is too high (Jesse has a perfect answer).

 

Resources mentioned: 

LIMB Academy 

FWF Calculator 

Jesse’s Website 

Jesse’s Previous Episode

More about Jesse: 

Jesse Kauffman, LMSW, is a psychotherapist and breathwork facilitator whose specialty is supporting professionals with ADHD. Lately he’s been helping ADHD dads in the tech industry grow in their career while also maintaining a meaningful presence with their families at home - and it’s inspiring work! He is licensed to work with clients in California, Colorado, Michigan, and Wisconsin and practices out of Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tiffany(00:01):

(00:01):
Hold into a disciplinary hearing with your licensing board because of your fees. When I talk to therapists about what's the worst thing that could possibly happen, what is the worst thing you can imagine when raising fees? Sometimes it's all my clients will leave. Sometimes it's my colleagues will hate me. We don't even let ourselves imagine. We don't even let our mind go to, what if we raise a fee and we get accused by a client that our fee is too high? And this is what happened to our guest today, therapist, Jesse Kaufman. Jesse Kaufman not only had a complaint lodged against him by a client, partially because of his fees, well, a hundred percent because of his fees, but then he was taken into a, a preliminary investigation. So they actually, his licensing board actually moved forward with the inquiry. And then not only that, they moved forward to opening an actual investigation and bringing him to the board meeting and actually going through the investigative disciplinary process, all due to a fee raise.
Tiffany(01:08):
And by the way, this wasn't Jesse being like, I've been in the, in the field for 50 years. I've had this fee. I'm so confident with it. This is somebody who's pushed himself, went into the Lean In Make Bank Academy, pushed himself to actually go for a fee that really worked for him and his family, who's living into and leaning into what it actually feels like to charge this fee. And then in the midst of COVD era on vacation, where he and his family actually all contracted Covid, he then gets the notification that he has a licensing board complaint against him. By the way, if you don't know who I am, my name is Tiffany McLean. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I can relate to the terror of this occurrence. As a once practicing therapist in private practice, I have a program called the Lean In Make Bank Academy, where we help therapists actually step into, have a visceral understanding and a grounding towards what fee you need to be charging and why.
Tiffany(02:13):
How do we step out of a system that was literally not designed for us? How do we step out of a system that may actually come after us for doing what is right for ourselves, for our profession, for our families? That is what I'm here to discover. And that is what we talked to Jesse about today. This episode, it's, we, it's back to back. If you didn't hear Jesse's episode last week, go listen to it. You will hear in that one his whole origin story. And in this one, we literally just dive into beginning to end his experience with having a disciplinary action taken against him because of his fee. Holy mackerel, click. Also, you can click the, the link below this episode. You can get our fun with fee calculator. Lean in make bank.com/free if you want to know what fee you'd have to charge in order to have the board coming after you, but really to live into who you are and what you stand for.
Tiffany(03:08):
We are going to hear how Jesse started, who he was at the beginning of this process and who he was at the end. And let me tell you, Jesse May have regrets, may maybe we'll do something differently. But hearing who he became by virtue of going through this process, listening to his voice, listening and hearing his voice, how he has confidence how grounded he is, how much ease and peace he has around holding the tension. It's just phenomenal. You're gonna love this episode. Share it with a friend. I have a a feeling this one is gonna go viral because we get to literally hear what it's like to face the board of licensure, beginning, middle, and who we are on the other side. Let's go.
Intro (03:55):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, my sister, let's do what she's doing. Like she's doing this.
Tiffany(04:37):
There we go folks. As promised, we are back with Jesse Kaufman. You just heard him. If you did not go back and listen to the episode we just dropped this week or last week, we're just doing back to back episodes for our first time ever, because we left you all with a cliffhanger around bum bubu, the time a client took disciplinary action around you because of your fee. This is every therapist worst nightmare, and we are gonna relive it with you. So before we do, can you just say briefly reintroduce yourself, tell folks a little bit about you and your current practice.
Jesse(05:15):
Yeah. So my name's Jesse Kaufman. I am physically located in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I work with professionals with A DHD lately, that's been a lot of a DHD dads and tech, which has been fun. I'm licensed in California, Colorado, Wisconsin as well. So I see folks kind of from all over. And currently my practice my fee is, is three 10. And yeah, it, it's good. It's taking care of the bills. Probably a little under on my caseload lately, but some of that is I've been experiencing as an opportunity for growth. And so I'm growing is what I'm doing.
Tiffany(05:57):
Did you hear how Jesse slipped in that opportunity for growth? I love it. Alright, we're gonna talk about a big opportunity for growth. I'm just gonna actually let you set the stage. We're talking about a disciplinary action. So you walk us through the story. I'll stop you. Mm-Hmm, as I need to, but really, I want you to just set the stage for folks.
Jesse(06:19):
Okay. So if, if I remember correctly from last time we left off that I had done limb gone from 1 65 to 200 and I, my caseload had increased. So then what happened after that was three months later after increasing the 200 and being in private practice for less than a year, I decided to increase my rate to three 10 in January the following year. So that was a choice to make for myself . And I can reflect more on that in retrospect later, I think. But the, for the sake of the story is I did make that choice and was really excited about it, energized by it, and felt it as a challenge that I wanted to rise to. So I spent the first probably three months without many inquiries without much any new clients.
Jesse(07:17):
And then after about three, three months at that new rate, I got my first clients. And so it was three 10 for individual sessions. It was three 90 for family sessions, family therapy sessions. And then I was doing a five 15 for a 90 minute intake, or I think it was 80 minutes, but 80 minute intake appointment. And so new clients would come in, they would, their first, their first session would be five 15. And then after that it would be three 10. So I had clients come in at that rate starting in probably like, I think it was March or April of that year. Had clients who had previously worked with me at 1 65 come at three, back at three 10 or had worked with me at the clinic, that's what it was. They worked me with outpatient clinic where insurance was covering it.
Jesse(08:08):
And they came and, and charged me three 10, which I, or they didn't charge me. I charged 'em three 10. I never would've thought that would've happened. But life is full of surprises. And then in July of that year, I had a new client that was actually through a personal connection. So I was like, oh, this is great, let's go. And we met and did the initial appointment, the five 15. They were an adult and they they had some level of cognitive impairment. And so at that, this is making this a little on the obvious side, at that point in time, I did not collect credit cards before the first appointment. So you did not need to put a credit card on file before you started services with me. If you need a cautionary tale listener, , you can use this as a cautionary tale.

(00:22):
Jesse(09:00):
But we did the first appointment. I felt like it went well. I talked about a credit card and file. They said they needed to talk to their mother, and so they reached out to their parent. And couple days later I got an email from her that was saying that she didn't like that she, the mother had concerns about this adult client engaging in services and whether or not they were cognitively capable enough to do that. And so and then had trouble with the fee being five 15. So we did a phone call maybe a week or two later. And she was very angry. Lemme pause,
Tiffany(09:41):
Let me pause you for a moment here. Yeah. When you got the email, your, what was the first, what was your visceral reaction when you first got that email from this parent? What feeling in your gut and what thoughts in your head?
Jesse(09:55):
Yeah, let me go back to that moment. So the, the, I think initially it was like, oh, no, like I was excited to work with this new client. I felt like there was a lot of possibility and so, and potential for a good working relationship. And so I felt a little bit like, oh, this is more precarious than I thought it would be. And so I had some disappointment around that. And then and then I was like, oh, we probably just need to, we probably just need to talk about it. But, but the parent seemed kind of like unhappy. And so I remember going into the phone call feeling like I am preparing myself to sit with someone else's anger. Mm. And I my historic pattern is to avoid other people's anger. be take off, just go somewhere else, disassociate just avoid it altogether.
Jesse(10:49):
And so I, I was conscious of the fact that I might be sitting with someone else's anger around this. And yeah, I don't know. So I I I, I was nervous to go into the phone call. So we go into the phone call and she was really unhappy and launched into this, yeah, I can't go into a ton of the details, but essentially saying like, how dare I charge this adult client five 15 for an appointment. Said it was outrageous. Said it was they were flabbergasted. They've never heard of anybody charging that. And yeah, they just said that we're, we're not gonna pay that. We're not gonna pay it. Like, you need to charge us less, or something like that. And I said no, we hear that you're angry, but no, this is the fee. I was upfront about it in the, you know, in enter entering into the arrangement. She said, did you know that we had medical power of attorney over this client? And I said no, not that wasn't a part of the intake paperwork. But if you didn't trust her ability to make medical decisions, why did you tell her to find her own therapist? That's a medical decision. And
Tiffany(12:15):
We're gonna sell this account again. Holy smokes. Okay. I'm impressed by the by by the ease with which you're conducting this conversation so far. Especially for somebody who has a historical tendency to flee conflict. I can imagine many therapists saying, okay, no problem. You don't have to pay. Well, one 50, like, what's good for you? You, it sounds like you held your ground, you held your mind, you didn't back down. You owned your authority as a clinician. You pushed back. Was your internal dialogue matching your external? No,
Jesse(12:46):
I was on fire that was burning up.
Jesse(12:50):
My heart was founding and I was like, oh no, I'm gonna die. Why am I, why do I feel like I'm gonna die? But but I was thinking, I mean, I don't what do, I don't wanna talk about this. So yeah, I wanted to run away. I wanted to be done. I wanted to acquiesce, but I, opportunities for growth. I just knew that this was not, this was not what I was being invited to do right now in my life. This was, I was being invited to learn something here. I was being invited to grow in who I am as a business owner and as a professional. And so it felt really, really scary. It felt like one of the harder conversations I've ever had. And I, and I, I, I, I feel actually quite proud of myself because the, the tone was really kind of patronizing to me.
Jesse(13:37):
The tone was painfully like ableist toward their own child, like their own adult child in this situation. And so I there was a lot inside of me internally that was screaming both from like anger and rage, but also like, help me get me outta this . What have I done? So we didn't come Oh, my done. Yeah, we didn't, we didn't come to agreement it. The, the end of the phone call was like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not I don't know dismissing, I'm not dismissing the fee. We did an appointment, we did a full appointment for services. I will take her, I'll take the client off the calendar for future appointments. But like that, I'm, you still, the, the fee is still owed. I'm happy to set up a payment plan. She, she laughed . And so yeah.
Jesse(14:33):
And so we hung up nothing, didn't hear anything. I sent a reminder email about the fee, like, I think it was at 30 days. 'cause I had like sent an invoice to say like, this is the fee that's owed. And then the response to that was I, and I can't remember, I think I sent it to the client. I don't remember if I sent it to the parent. But the parent replied saying that we're, you know, we're not paying this. I am filing a grievance with the, the board. What other professional associations are you a part of? I want to file grievances with all of them too. Yeah, just like that, that, I dunno, they, that's what they said. Alright,
Tiffany(15:18):
Let's pause. This is the, you, you, you, you say, you're saying that just like, yeah. And then this happened. You just, you just laid out 90% of clinicians worst nightmare, which is hearing, we're gonna submit this grievance to the board, and also please tell us what other associations you're involved in. 'cause We're gonna submit this grievance everywhere. We're gonna be smirk your name. We're gonna ruin your reputation. We're gonna rate, hell fire upon you. And it's a repetition of many therapists, trauma, of having a voice advocating for their needs, and being not only dismissed, but also attacked. Can you talk a little bit about your response to this stage and what pieces were tapping into? Any earlier stories or, or earlier traumas you had or have?
Jesse(16:03):

(00:43):
Yeah, so I it definitely tapped into the, if i, if I make noise advocate for myself in some way, I, I am susceptible to someone's vitriol, anger hostility. Yeah, I mean, it, it, it, it definitely brought all of that forward. I did feel like I was being attacked, like my livelihood, my way to help provide for my family. This was in 2021. So to make matters worse, , I was actually on vacation at the time and needed to check my email because there was like a timely accounting thing that needed to happen. So I got this email while I was on vacation. And this was, you know, at the same time we had contracted Covid. And so my whole family got covid and we ended our vacation early and went home. And so there was so much uncertainty and just like, pain and discomfort around this.
Jesse(17:05):
I cannot say enough how grateful I am to like my people in my life. You know, I, I, I was meeting at this point in time, I had already gone through lims. So I had a couple friends from Lim that we meet weekly and we talk about different stuff. And in business and clinically clinical matters. I at that point in time had a therapist that I was feeling really good with. The supervisor I mentioned in a previous, the previous episode that I really feel grateful for, she was also a part of that and was wildly supportive. And so I felt like yeah, I don't, it, it felt like, I mean, aside from having covid that, that that eclipsed things, you know, in the that like week or two, but this eclipsed a lot in my life. It, like, it really felt kind of all consuming because it is, it is the boogeyman that we've all been told to fear.
Jesse(18:04):
We are all supposed to fear as licensed professionals. We are all supposed to fear the licensing board. And and a lot of us don't even really know what that is like, or what it feels like, or what it looks like, and to have it threatened. And so I'm trying to talk myself out of like, it's okay. Like, they're probably not gonna find anything. You know, this is about like a billing complaint, you know what I mean, really. And so I was kind of like trying to talk myself down, but also like, you know, it's that feeling of like, this is ramping up and I try and talk myself down, but it's that like vacillation that like up and then down and you keep trying to use all your skills to keep yourself in check. But it's just real. I mean, it's just, it just was real.
Jesse(18:48):
So at that point in time, they had threatened to make the that, and then they had their attorney send me an email. The irony, they had an attorney that was speaking on behalf of this client, but surely that client didn't pay for this attorney to do this. This is like a friend of, probably the friend of the mom, you know, anyway, sends me a cease. Like not, it was not like a, it was kind of like a, it was the threatening, it wasn't a cease and desist, but it was like a threatening letter about like, how could I, as a professional trying to take advantage of this client. Yeah. So that was, I didn't really like that either. So at that point in time, I called my li I called the my liability insurance. 'cause I was like, Ooh, I need some support here.
Jesse(19:37):
I, you have a, a free like consult, like 30 minute consult with an attorney through my liability insurance. And so I had a colleague say, use that. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's do that. So I called an attorney. It was someone in Texas. He was very helpful. I told him the whole story. He said, no, you're good. Like that, that you were clear. You had everything in writing. You, you talked about things verbally in the intake. So that they do owe the fee for that service. And I even told 'em the part about the, on the phone about when she said, and then the mom said that she had medical power of attorney. I, and then I said, well, choosing a therapist, she'd encouraged the adult client to choose a therapist. And me saying that that was a, that's a medical decision to make.
Jesse(20:26):
The attorney laughed and said, you caught her in a lie. And I was like, well, that must've been why she got so angry after that. Mm-Hmm. . And like, really started to, anyway, so I felt comforted. I felt buoyed by that from him. And I thought, okay, well I'm gonna keep moving forward. And then I get the letter from State of Michigan licensing and regulatory affairs, Laura the board saying that there's gonna, they're opening that a, a grievance has been filed against me. And that the, that it's being essentially like considered for investigation. And so for those of you who hadn't, haven't had licensing experiences, it, it kind of is similar to CPH where someone has like filed a complaint and CPH goes and interviews like the parents and checks out the home to see if, like, are we really doing an investigation here?
Jesse(21:16):
Do we actually wanna open an investigation? Or is this like, totally not substantiated? And so we're not gonna put the resources into it? So it was, it was similar to that. I now had, after I got that, I contacted my liability insurance. They, they connected me with an attorney. The attorney consulted with me about what this meeting would be like. It was just this state of Michigan agent who had come and asked me some questions. I would get a copy of. I don't remember if I got a copy of the actual grievance. I think I did prior to. But it was a phone. It was like a, a phone call me, my attorney, and the state employee. And so that was an exercise in being present with myself and adversity because that I felt like I was on, I mean, I felt like I was on trial.
Jesse(22:05):
Like, this is, like, this has more gravity than someone just says, I, you know, I'm gonna tell on you. It has the gravity of like, oh, I better not say something to get myself into more trouble. And there was a, there were parts of this where I was like, am I, am I wrong? Am I, like, I had all of those feelings around, like, did I do something wrong here? Like what if what if I didn't, you know? And I talked it through with, with colleagues not a ton of them. 'cause I'm not trying to, you know, I don't know. I, I was, I'm trying to be discreet about it, not from a hiding, I don't wanna say this. I wanna honor, I wanna honor my client's privacy. And I'm not disclosing names or anything, but just, you know, I don't, it's town gets smaller than you think it is sometimes. And so anyway oh, I got lost on that little train.
Tiffany(22:53):
Well, when you're talking about all the different ways you're getting clinical consultation, clinical support, however, that being said, you are wondering in your own mind, and I think it's a, an appropriate thing to consider, this is where we would all go. Where did I maybe mess up in this? Yes. So you, you're, you're, you're sharing with us that at some points you're thinking, wait, did I miss something? Was I taking advantage? Was this okay? How did you how did you hold those feelings and also keep moving forward?
Jesse(23:19):
Yeah, so I, so the, the accusation was predatory malpractice. Oh my gosh. Which is a beautiful, sensational thing to cue someone of. It's not a real thing. It's not like a legal thing that someone, I mean, malpractice is, but sounds good, you know? But, but predatory malpractice was sensational accusation. And I think it called it, I mean, I, so
Jesse(23:45):
This is also in the context of like, I'm an adult male who's, this is a young adult female client whose mother is accusing me as a clinician of predatory malpractice, which the language of that evokes a lot of like, you know, like sexual nature accusation. And so that was also really unsettling. And I am, I live in the state of Michigan. It was not that much earlier that the Larry Nassar case was going on. Who was the, the, you know gym coach? The gym coach who had assaulted so many athletes. And and so, you know, that kind of is like in the, the mix of all of this too. And so I'm like, did I make a mistake five 15? Is that too much? No one else around me is charging five 15. Have I made an error? Right? Are they just gonna look at that and be like, this greedy son of a?

(01:04):
Jesse(24:36):
Let's, you know, knock 'em out, let's take 'em down or something. And and so it felt, it felt really scary. And I did not have other people that I knew who had gone through a similar experience. So I was relying heavily on my attorney who also said he's not had a case like this before. Which is like, what is going on? And yeah, so I had a, I I had a lot of questions. I really had to bolster myself a lot to get through it because sometimes when I'm nervous, I can say way more, more words than I need to say. And this is not a scenario where I want to be doing that. And so, yeah, it, it, it, it took a lot. And I went through that meeting and it was challenging. And I asserted that I, I clarified in writing.
Jesse(25:31):
The client had it verbally. We verbally discussed it and clarified that everything's on my website anywhere where they could find me. My fee was listed, this should, there's no reason this would've been a surprise. And yeah. And then how much I knew about their cognitive abilities and what that would mean for whether or not they, excuse me, they could make decisions on their own. And I thought the meeting went well. The attorney said that's, you know, great, good job. You know, we'll see. You never know, we'll see. And then it was like nothing. I heard nothing for, for, let's see, I'm probably in like October. And so I just heard nothing for months and months and months at the same time that this was happening. My therapy practice felt like it was kind of like, felt kind of erratic.
Jesse(26:25):
It felt like I would have a bunch of people come in, but then they wouldn't stay long. And I wasn't, it didn't feel stable. I felt like my therapy practice was on this rollercoaster Mm-Hmm. And I was realizing I probably need to make some changes around my practice. I started to have the suspicion that I, by changing my rates so much, like from one se 1 65 to 200 is $35, 200 to three 10 is $110 a week difference. And I started to think about like, I can, my, can my system actually like, maintain this? Like, is this a part of, this is like I'm jumping ahead of where I can really grow into and, and sustain and hold you know, stably for myself. And so I had a lot of those questions, but I'm in the middle of this licensing thing now. And if I change my feet, does that, is that incriminating me? Like, what does that mean? And what will, what will my limb friends think about? You know, Jesse, like, oh yeah, good. We're cheering for you. And now, oh, you know, what? If he reduces his fee and at the, lemme lemme,
Tiffany(27:28):
I'm gonna pause on that for a moment. Hit hit pause. So not only, you are now serving in the community as a figure of someone who made this big fee leap. You've made this change. People are like, look what Jesse did. So there's also now the pressure of, am I gonna let these people down who are relying on me, projecting into me? Not, not all responsibility, but it feels like now they're, they've, they've vitalized me with this thing. If I go down, am I letting down those people too? Yes.
Jesse(27:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I thought all of that. And at the same time, I was feeling, how do I say it? Like, I was feeling this impatience in my clinical work with clients. I would do the, the intake, the 80 minute intake, and I would just see all the patterns. I would see all the, like, the systemic things. And I would just notice myself having a hard time sitting and being patient with their ability to get there. And I consulted with some colleagues, and some were like, well, I don't, I don't actually do a full intake because I like letting the mystery unfold Mm. With the client. And I was like, oh, I wanna try that. Wait, can I not do intakes? Like if I take the intakes off, like again, is this an incriminating thing for myself? Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I had to, I just, I eventually, I got to the point where I was like, I know that we're, what is happening right now, aside from the licensing thing is not right for me.
Jesse(28:50):
And so I decided to go from three 10 down to two 60, and I decided to remove the intake appointment that we would just start with a regular individual session for 50 minutes at two 60. And and that I just would see, see how that works for me. And it was miraculous. Like my, my, my everything's just like stabilized then. Like my practice stopped having these big fluctuations, like people come on, then people leave, you know, people return and then they go. And like, it just felt like it was all over the place. And it, and it it just stabilized. I got, and I got a bunch of a, a bunch, I got a, you know, five or six clients in that like three month period where I switched to two 60 that are people I still see. Right? And so it just, there was something about that that just like, I think stabilized in a way that felt like, okay this is, this is where I am in business now, and that feels like it's a good choice for me to make. Mm-Hmm.
Jesse(29:51):
In March, no, it was like the week after my birthday, I get a letter from the state, the board that they birthday are progressing forward in the investigation. And I will need to sub submit all my notes all client records related to this client, and that there will be what's called a compliance conference where I will meet with a member of the board, a staff member of the licensing agency. It'll be my attorney and myself, and it will be a conversation where they're essentially saying what do we want to do with this? Like, you're, you're being investigated now, but we want to hear more about what you're thinking, what your plan is. And so I, I was gutted like that just, that was so painful because I was so hopeful that I had like, clarified things enough that they would, they would move on. Like, oh yeah, no, he, he did his due diligence around understanding the client's needs and articulating the fee and the, the policies and billing and all of those pieces. And this is just someone who's upset about a fee, right. And they don't wanna pay it. And so, we'll, you know, move on. That was not the case. And so I was back in touch with my attorney about it, and we started like preparing for this comp compliance conference.
Tiffany(31:16):
Did you have to pay this attorney separately or as part of a business expense?
Jesse(31:19):
It was out of my liability insurance. Okay. So there's a certain amount outta the liability insurance that's covered. And thankfully we didn't accrue charges exceeding the, like $35,000 limit or whatever it is for attorney fees. Got it. So heard nothing for a very long time. Hoped for the best, experienced the, the worst. And yeah. So that, that was really hard. That kind of like knocked me right back on my. And yeah, I don't know. Like I was kind of speechless, right? Mm. And angry. And you know, and there's these parts of this that were like also really wild. Like, we have all these perceptions around, you know, like money and community and stuff like this. The, the, the people that this involved don't live that far from my house, they're like two neighborhoods over, right? And in, in a much wealthier neighborhood than, than I live in. The, it's like they, I, the parents are notable people in the community. So it just, it brought for like, I was, I was regularly feeling confronted by this every time I drive by that neighborhood, which is not far from my house. And it just was like, it was so present.
Jesse(32:43):
So we go to the compliance conference and some of the questions around, again, the same kind of questions around, did I give enough information how, you know, what was it written? They saw where it was written? They wanted to know timeline of events. When did I tell, when did they contact me? How did they contact me? How did they know who I was? You know, when was the fee articulated? And one of the questions in it was how do you, so how do you justify charging five 15 for an intake appointment?
Speaker 4 (33:17):

(01:25):
Oh no, .
Jesse(33:22):
Ooh. That is the, that's the fear. , there it is. We found it. We found the thing where the president of the licensing board has asked you in a, in a conference call around why you're being investigated how you can justify how you can justify the fee that you were charging.
Tiffany(33:41):
This is the moment you've been preparing for, for like years. Can you stand behind the fee you've chosen? Mm-Hmm, . Okay. Yeah. So what did you, what did you say?
Jesse(33:52):
Yeah, so to the best that I can recall it, because I'm, I may or may not have blacked out a little bit during this. I try to stay as present as possible. But when you're, your like, historic pattern is to like, have these minor disassociations, right? And, and avoid, it's like, it, it is, it is so hard to stay present with all that discomfort and, and it feeling like it's pointed at you. And so I started to talk about therapy being a predominantly female field and how there's historically not been value on the work that women do. And that that bias comes into the fee. And even though I'm a, a male, I'm in that, that field. And so it, it has affected the therapy field. And and I, and I said, I, I don't think I said it this strongly.
Jesse(34:55):
I wanna say it in a way that's stronger, but I don't think I said it this strongly 'cause I'm still scared in the call, but I essentially said, there's not another profession where someone says, come to me with all that is wrong with your life, and I will sit with you. I'm not gonna just give you answers. I'm gonna wait for you to help find them yourself. Where is that, where, where, where is the person that will do that in, in our, in our world that that's not, that's not a, in the system that we have currently, that's not a thing that people sign up for. And so when you are asking people to bring their worst, most painful things, and that you will sit with them and believe in them and encourage them and help them find their own way out of that, that's life changing work that is, that justifies that fee.
Jesse(35:49):
And the, the, the, the board president, he, he was kind, I'm, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to disparage him at all, at all, at all. 'cause I think he did a great job. But he said, oh, you know, I'm, I, I had lived in that area. And so, you know, there are a lot of students in that area. How are they, how are they paying? Like, how are they paying for your services? And that question felt like it shifted a little bit from like, explain yourself to me to how are you charging this? Like, it was, so
Tiffany(36:18):
I wanna do what you're doing. That's what it sounds like. Like, tell me more how, how this works.
Jesse(36:23):
And so I said, well, I mean, we have a lot of assumptions about students, but some of them have families that can afford the fee. Some of them have great out-of-network benefits that they, you know that are available to them through their PPO insurance HSA cards that they use to pay. Like, there's lot, there's just lots of ways. I mean, we, we have assumptions about what people can afford, but I'm not in their pockets to manage their finances. Like that's, we can talk about if they bring it to me, but that's not my job to like, say, bring me your bank statements and I'm gonna tell you how you can afford this. Like, I, you know, so I don't, I don't know the answer for everyone, but I know, you know, from what I do get from people that's what it resembles. And he said, okay. And so I
Tiffany(37:04):
Just pause to say, it went from how do you possibly justify this? Almost like, who do you think you are to, can I pick your brain about how you're setting fees and how it's actually working for you from a business marketing perspective? That's what I heard there, which is so powerful. When you think about somebody who holds their mind, you are holding your mind, you're speaking from a place of conviction, and you're actually talking about how you are not only advocating for others in the system, but you're advocating for the profession as a whole is just like a beautiful shift that he was allowed to go on with you and actually get curious about, well, how do we do this together? Mm-Hmm, , wow.
Jesse(37:39):
Yeah. Yeah. At that, that point, I felt like, oh, maybe I'm gonna be safe. Maybe I am safe. Like I, the whole time I felt like I'm not, you know, it's that feeling. I'm not safe. I'm not safe here. I better not make a misstep. And at that point in time, I thought, oh, okay, I feel a little better. At the end of the call, the, the staff member from Laura said to me and my attorney and the, and the board member was still on the call that ever since the Larry Nassar case, we've started to have, the board has picked up more of these cases where it, you know, it, it he didn't say it's less substantiated, but he just said they're, they're applying a higher level of scrutiny. Mm. And my attorney had said that he had heard that from another board staff member for a different case.
Jesse(38:23):
And so and so that gave me some comfort, but I, but I also felt like the this, it's like I'm at this point, I had by the time we got to that, and it had been like, it had been nine months of this. And then and so I felt a little bit of comfort, but it was not all the way. And then I get a, I get a letter that I'm on the board agenda for their disciplinary subcommittee meetings for the state of Michigan. And I think that was, ended up being in May. And yeah, no, it was, it was, I think it was later than May. I think I got notice that it would be in May, but then it was like several months later. And so I don't have to attend. I'm not allowed to say anything, but I can attend if I want to.

(01:46):
Jesse(39:22):
And I was like, what is what do I want here? ? Do I, what's my goal? Do I wanna submit myself to this? Or I don't get to say anything. I don't get to advocate for myself. I just get to see people discuss what has happened, like what they think about me. I've given all the information I can, and it's like a hundred percent in their hands. Do I want to go experience that? And I went back and forth. I consulted with people in the end. I said yes, because I'm like, well, I, well, I, oh man, I am really committed to growing as a person. And so that means this let's face your fears. And so I met with my attorney and I went to the, the hearing, and we sat through the whole, like they do a full board meeting, and then the disciplinary subcommittee meets committee committee meets after that.
Jesse(40:09):
So we did a whole hour of the listening to the board meeting, and then went into the subcommittee meeting. And I was not the only, I was not the only licensed person in there, so it wasn't like totally isolating, but it's a big conference room. And they had started going through all these different all these different cases that they were gonna consult on. And I was the only one listed for motion to dismiss. So that's positive. That's like, okay, good. Come on, fingers crossed, let's go. We can do it. And so that, I was really, really hopeful. They're going through the agenda and the person before me has like, had got drunk with clients, like hired a client to work in his office, like had a sexual relationship with a client. I was just like, and, and and some of the language from the other board members were kind of giving the board member, the, the board president, the business a little bit on, like, we think you should be harder on him.
Jesse(41:11):
And the same board president is suggesting that I should be dismissed in the next next line item on this agenda. So I'm like, oh my God, what? No, I need help someone help me. And my attorney leaned over me and he goes, well, next to this guy, you're gonna look like a saint. And I was like, well, yeah, but I, hopefully they still think he's credible. And his recommendation, like, oh my God, I was it was so painful. Anyway they got to mine and they had no discussion whatsoever. They said, motion dismissed. And they said, second. And they said I don't say third, but they, you know, whatever the people's eye. And then they motioned to dismiss it, and it was like gone. It was just like vanished. I mean, it didn't vanish. I waited for the paperwork to actually come in.
Jesse(41:55):
And that didn't come for several months still yet. But it just was like all this, all this worry that like w was gone. And and I didn't ever, I didn't take the client to collections. I did say that I was gonna let, let go of that fee at this point. I just figured it was probably not worth it for me. This, the parent had way more free time and resource to chase me, try and threaten me. Like I just, and I just, I, and I, and I really, really struggled with that. I don't know how many therapy sessions. We talked about it with my therapist because I felt like, is this a forfeiture of myself? Like, is this, this is before, this is before I was seeing it was dismissed because it came up in the compliance conference about whether or not I would actually follow up to charge the fee.
Jesse(42:46):
And I said excuse me. I said, I've, I've since decided that I'm not gonna follow up on tr like collections for the fee. I don't, I don't think it's worth my time at this point. And so there's a possibility that that is also what came into play with their decision with the board. I don't know. But I didn't, you know, I, I decided not to and I feel, and I feel good about that choice. I feel like that was still standing by me. Like that was still me voting for me. I could have, I, I legally I had every rewrite to go for the fee, and I, maybe I would've gotten it, maybe it would've been paid. I know other therapists who do act absolutely go to collections and, and get get their pay by going that route.
Jesse(43:32):
But at this point in time it just felt like I, I, I had more important things for me to focus on. And so, yeah, by the time I finally got the paperwork, it had been a year and a half of this whole experience. And so it's been interesting because on the other side of that, I have found my own like agency and power in a way that I absolutely did not have before. I don't feel scared of the licensing board in the way that I did before, because I, I know what they look like. I've been to a meeting, I've heard their meetings. I get their agendas in my email. And I, I know that I can, that I can trust myself to rise to these moments where like, no one else, yes, my attorney's gonna help me and advocate for me, but I still have to speak on my own behalf about why making the choices in my business that I'm making. And I think that's a really, that it was a really scary prospect at this point in my, like, at that point in my life, it was really, really scary prospect. But on the other side of that, like I, I feel like it's been a real gift. I, I am much less.
Jesse(44:42):
I I'm way less. I don't, I'm, I'm like not toppled over, like, things don't tip my apple cart the way that they used to. Because I know that I, I know that I can do it. Like I know that I can manage it. And the other part is like confronting the licensing board. This process took so long. If, if, for whatever weird reason, right, I did actually lose my license, there was so much time for me to find another job and do something else. Like, you know, it just, we, we fear, we fear it because we can imagine. And we've been told that it, you know, like, it, it means doom and it's a shame on you and your family and the profession. And and so being even adjacent to that, being accused of something like that, even though I hadn't done anything wrong, felt like I was taking all that on, and it took a lot of work to say, no, this isn't all mine to hold anymore.
Jesse(45:31):
Like, this isn't, this isn't actually reflective of who I am. I decide who I am, like I say who I am, and I decide who I am. And and that, yeah, that, that was quite the journey. And so I, I feel what I choose to do it again, no, but I, in retrospect, I, I don't know that I would've made a different choice. I dunno if that makes sense, but I don't know that I would've made a different choice because I want the me that is on the other side of this. Yeah. Like, I love him. Like I want, I want him as the person that is living my life more than I want the, you know, previous version of myself that couldn't sit with someone else's anger, felt like he was dying if someone accused him of something. And now I don't, you know, that's just, that's not, that's not the same experience anymore.
Jesse(46:20):
And, and, you know, get elections not going the way we want to sometimes. I will say that my experience of of, of this election cycle has been different because I, you know, there's a way in which we really, we, we are a, as Americans, I think we are addicted to the culture of celebrity, and we really, really want other people to save us. Mm-Hmm. . We really, really want some other figure to do the thing for us to show us the way. And and I still have that desire within me. Sometimes there's things that I'm doing now in my practice that feel kind of trailblazing. I'm like, oh, if I could just see someone who is a cardboard cutout to guide the way for me to do it, and I have to keep bringing myself back to like, no, this is, this is your life, Jesse.
Jesse(47:07):
Like, no one else gets to live it. And so the things that you dream up are your dreams that that path that you forge is yours to make. And so I wanna keep doing that. And so yes to the disappointment around how elections go, absolutely. And yes to feeling fear and sadness and disappointment and, and anger yes to being worried about people in my life, you know and their safety, but also, yes, to knowing my own power and agency, yes. To knowing that I am committed to saving myself, and I wanna inspire and encourage the people in my life to also save themselves. And we do it together, right? It's not saying like everyone's individualistic, but like, if we're all working to like, be our, our most authentic versions of ourself, and we're arm in arm, like, what the world will change.
Jesse(47:59):

(02:07):
Like, that's what I want, right? Let's go. And so that's what I wanna keep working toward, and that's what I like, that's what gives me hope when things feel really bleak, is because it's like, I, I, I can't keep hoping that some politician that's never met me, who is part of a different socioeconomic class than I am, is gonna, is gonna save me. I can't, it doesn't that hope that I've banked on before hasn't worked yet. And so I, I don't want to keep doing that. And we still get to be engaged in the process, and that still matters, but I, you know, I have to trust myself and I have to encourage other people to do the same.
Tiffany(48:40):
It's so powerful. I can imagine people listening. I actually, when I heard you first saw the story, you came and told it to our Lim students. I was like, I wanna work with you, Jesse, or what, whatever you have, I want some of that. We can talk another time about what happened with that. But we did not end up working together. I don't even know if I had anything. I'm like, I just wanna, I just wanna have access to, at this, whatever that time in my life was. Maybe I was a new mom. I just wanna have access to the sturdiness that comes with somebody who goes through the fire, feels terrified and says, and says, nobody's gonna do this but me. Nobody can save me but me. I, there's a real power to that. And I'm sure people listening are moved both by how you advocated for yourself, despite the fear, how you were able to hold your mind.
Tiffany(49:28):
Again, despite going through what is many of our worst nightmares, the licensing board lost its power as something somebody who could save or hurt you, which means the president or the election, whatever happens in the elections that's lost its power over, somebody can save or hurt you. You are the one who could save yourself. You are the one who could put yourself in positions of being hurt or not. How have you changed as a clinician? This is my final question. How have you changed as a clinician, as a result of going through this process, be becoming really becoming an adult, your own adult?
Jesse(50:02):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I, the first story that comes to my mind is someone did a consult call with me a while back, and they were saying, well, and they were, they were a salesperson. They were in, in tech sales. And so they were like, well, why would I choose you when I could choose someone with my insurance? And I said, well, you were allowed to choose someone with your insurance. They're relying on an intermediary to like manage their work with you. And I'm not, and it, it takes work, therapeutic work, deep work to, to charge what I do in my practice. And so I show up to sessions with that lived experience, embodied experience of how I move as a clinician. And so I can't speak to other therapists. I don't, I don't, I don't know, you know, necessarily how they work, but I know that I am a different person having been on the, you know, of the other side of, of becoming a person who can charge what I do for therapy.
Jesse(50:59):
And I, I, there was, I think he really was like, Hmm, oh yeah. Like, it really seemed like that was like, and I wasn't just bullshitting. I'd like that that's true. That that is true. And so, yeah, I just, I have a, I have a, I have more resolve, I just have more like clarity. I have more confidence. I can sit with clients better than I did before that rushing. I don't feel in the same way, that urgency to like help them get to solutions. I don't feel in the same way. I mean, we get there, right? Like I'm still helpful to them, but but it's not for the sake of me and, and alleviating my own discomfort. It's for the sake of them and more on their time. And and it feels good. It feels, it feels good to hold the, the space in that way.
Jesse(51:51):
Yeah. And, and I, and I know that my family has, you know benefited from me doing that as well. I mean, I shared the story in limb, and I won't share it here, but like, I most, one of the most beautiful experiences I've had in my entire life was in my family, was was born of this situation and, and how we navigated together. Yeah. And I, and I, you know, I was proud to tell that story in, in limb when I did that workshop, but that's something always cherish. Like I absolutely will always cherish. And and I'm, I've had family members reflect back to me that like, you being the person you are now and doing and living the way you do helps me, you know, believe in that for myself. And so I'm, I'm sure that that that shows up in my clinical work.
Jesse(52:42):
I had a client just, you know, last month was like the way that you show up with your whole heart, it every session, just I'm not, you know, I just have never experienced anything like that. And that really has made a huge difference for me. And I, I, this experience charging what I do, having free time to go see a personal trainer and meet my wife for lunch and pick up my kids before and after school, like, it's all a part of that, all that tending to myself, it, you know, it's all, it's all a part of that story. And so, yeah, it's I I cherish it.
Tiffany(53:20):
You can hear it, we can hear it in your voice. We won't go into that story, but of, of some of the interactions you had with your family as a result of this. I was thinking about it throughout this whole session, and it's actually informed my parenting, my, as my kids have gotten older, I often think back to that. And it actually has changed how I show up and how I talk to my kids about my experience. So thank you for that. Thank
Jesse(53:44):
You. Oh, I'm gonna tuck that right in my heart.
Tiffany(53:46):
Really. I do. I was almost, I was, I think about that often, especially with my older son. He's five now. And so it's like, oh, I can, this is important. For folks listening who are curious about working with you in any capacity as a therapist, maybe getting some clinical consultation, getting a little taste of, of the equanimity with which you now approach yourself, the world, your practice, how can they get a hold of you?
Jesse(54:11):
Yeah, so my therapy practice is called Atalier therapy, which is the French word for workshop, atalier. And so you can go there, email me, I'm [e-mail]. Happy to connect. You know, you can connect with me on LinkedIn too. That's, I'm not, I'm, I'm personally active on other social medias, but not professionally active there. And so yeah, I'd be happy to send me an email. I, every once in a while I'll have a newsletter if you're interested. So you can send me an email, say like, add me to newsletter. Yeah, any, any way I can be helpful, I'm happy to. I really believe that like we all, we all, we need to do it together, right? Like I talked about our, like individual power, but like we support each other finding it, right? I did not find this just be on my own. I was not in a silo. Like I had a tremendous support life-changing support really from, from friends and colleagues. And so yeah, let's do it. Let's do it together.

(02:28):
Tiffany(55:06):
Do it. Thank you, Jesse.
Jesse(55:08):
Yeah. Thank you, Tiffany. It's an honor.
Outro(55:16):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.