March 17, 2025 • 49 mins
Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free
In this episode, we’re speaking with Dr. Tavari Brown, Ph.D., LPC, MPH, CPCS, a LIMB grad and current mentor based out of Atlanta, Georgia.
Recorded before her move from LIMB student to mentor, Tavari takes this opportunity to share her in-process journey of leaving all insurance panels and charging cash pay, premium fee rates.
She gets real about her previous “damsel in distress” mentality and how she moved from waiting for rescue from a knight in shining armor to saving herself instead.
This episode will challenge you to think about yourself and your practice differently.
You won’t want to miss it.
In this episode, Tavari shares:
Three signs that let her know she needed to get off of all insurance panels;
How her clinical work has changed as a result of the changes she’s making in her mindset and practice;
How her marketing has changed as a result of her doing her deeper work;
A key question for any therapist seeing over 30 clients a week that believes they’re doing good work;
Three pieces of strategic advice for any therapist who is currently struggling with being overworked while seeing clients on insurance panels.
Resources mentioned:
More about Tavari:
Dr. Tavari Brown, Ph.D., LPC, MPH, CPCS is a health educator, licensed professional counselor, and counselor educator. Her public health career began as an Adolescent Health Advisor for a California health department prior to becoming a Public Health Advisor for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Dr. Brown integrates her public health knowledge with her counseling skills. She owns and operates an Atlanta based private counseling practice with a focus on cancer, grief, and fertility issues.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Tiffany(00:01):
(00:01):
Holy mackerel, you are in for a treat. Today we have on the show Dr. Tavari Brown, who is going to be sharing her journey, which is currently in process of de Panelling from insurance going cash pay, charging 200 to two 50 a session. What is it like, what led her to make this decision? What is it like to be in the midst of deep paneling from all insurance and going cash pay in her private practice? Let me tell you, I, I was excited to have Dr. Tavari on the show. I am even more excited now that we have actually recorded our episode. You are going to get phenomenal insights about what was happening in her mind. You are going to have a real talk from her about the way she was in denial about how she was running her business. You are going to have strategic steps to what it takes to have a cash pay premium fee practice.
Tiffany(01:06):
I'm really excited for you to check out this episode. I already want you to share it with a friend. And look, I say this, I know you're not even in the, into the episode yet. You don't even know who I am. If this is your first time listening, by the way, my name is Tiffany McLain, licensed Marriage and Family therapist. Be strategist. I have been running the Lean In Make Bank Academy for the past seven years, and I'm here to help you be emancipated from a system that was not designed for you. If you have listened to the show for years, and I know some of you have, please send this to your listserv. I know you're nervous. I know you don't think we're allowed to be talking about this stuff, but it's really important that we get the word out. Send this to your listserv, text it to a friend. If you are new to the show, sit back, relax, welcome your safety belt, prepared to be challenged. Prepared to be inspired, prepared to be introduced to a new paradigm of thinking about yourself as a clinician in private practice. Let's go.
Intro (02:11):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost. I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(02:54):
Alright, folks, I am so excited to bring Ari Brown to you today. Tari is in our community right now. Lean in, make, make, and she, whenever she opens her mouth to talk to the other students, she just says something that's like, bow, Ooh, beautiful. I don't even need to say anything. Just her wisdom is phenomenal. Her experience. Woo. So we're gonna, we're gonna just dive right in. Tavari, please start by telling folks a little bit about you and your practice as it now stands.
Tavari(03:25):
All right. Well, I'm Tavari Brown. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. Went to uc, Berkeley for undergrad, NYU for grad school. Was there during September 11th and watched that second plane go through the tower and said this tree did not grow in Brooklyn, and decided to make my way back to Atlanta. At the time, I actually had a master's degree in public health, was doing a lot of work in behavior change. So, interestingly enough, I actually chose psychology when I was 10 years old. And I was trying to figure out, you know, should I become a psychologist or should I become a psychiatrist? As a little kid, decided I didn't wanna write prescriptions for whatever reason but was really discouraged when I went to Berkeley. Went to Berkeley. I, it, it seemed very research oriented. You would think the counseling psychology didn't exist.
Tavari(04:09):
So I went this kind of public health route. And so by the time I went back, came back to Atlanta, I was working for the CDC as a public health advisor, and still not quite getting what I needed. And, and some of that is this balance between doing community work, but also doing that individual work. So for the last probably 15 years, I've had a private practice in name. So I started my practice in 2008. And then, and, you know, but trying to, I was born the year of the rabbit, the Chinese year of the rabbit. I burrow into security, and I know we'll talk more about this, like this kind of working class mentality. I'm good at getting jobs. I had my first job at age 13, I can get a job, right? But in 2018, I was actually laid off from the secure job, the safe, secure job, let me go.
Tavari(04:57):
And immediately door started opening. But I, to be honest with you, I never wanted to go into business. I wasn't interested in being in business. I really just wanna be the talent. I just wanna show up somebody else, keep the lights on, somebody else, think about, you know, it, I wanna come in, do my thing, do what I'm good at, clock out. So this was in 2018. I went, I went full-time in my private practice because I was pushed off the, the job ledge and really haven't looked back since. But, you know, obviously, you know, joining li there's some things that we have to work on, right? Like our mindset, our business acumen, all of those things. But I'm currently running a private practice in Atlanta. The majority of my clients are black and brown folks, L-G-B-T-Q-I, a lot of single single women individuals.
Tavari(05:49):
And I kind of went in with this specialty of like health psychology. So my focus for a long time has been grief. I've, I ran, ran a very powerful grief support group with with individuals who had lost their parents or who had lost a pregnancy. I'm doing some work around fertility issues, and I honestly love doing work around cancer and end of life issues. And I have found that the majority of my clients who are coming in, of course, they're dealing with anxiety, they're dealing with depression. But then we look at the things going on in their, their lives that, you know, they're having difficulties getting pregnant or difficulties in relationships or, you know, at a certain age we're dealing with our aging parents. And a lot of us are kind of sandwiched between having young children and figuring out what kind of parents do we wanna be, and then parenting our parents and dealing with, you know, 70, 80-year-old parents and all the challenges that come with these people who are adults and have agency and who have autonomy that we don't have guardianship over. But that's the place where those, that's my sweet spot. That's my passion, is really talking about the developmental stages and how we're working through those things as individuals.
Tiffany(06:56):
Beautiful. I know by the time we're done, there are gonna be people listening who are going to say, I wanna work with Tavari, so I'm glad you listed. Oh, and eventually we're gonna have you listing one thing. You're gonna be like, I am gonna good at this. But you're still at the stage where you're listening a lot of stuff and a lot of really important stuff. Grief, fertility grief that comes with cancer. Being in the sandwich generation, having young kids and having all the parents, so people listening. If any of those things are resonating with you, you wanna be in touch with Tari. Even if you're a therapist, you're probably a therapist listening to this. I encourage therapists who are listening to consult with therapists who are going on this journey. So I encourage you, if you're open, Tavari, to set up a consultation, full fee, cash money to learn about what Tavari is doing and how she's doing this. So,
Tavari(07:40):
Cash money, absolutely cash
Tiffany(07:42):
Money. This is no copy date. No. They're getting, they're getting some wisdom from you. Well,
(00:22):
Tavari(07:47):
We're here to work. And I think that's one of things that we'll really talk about is like, how often, you know, our clients come in and we're phoning it in, you know, that we're, we're chatting it up, we're, you know, having a, a conversation with them like, we're friends and we're not actually doing the work. But I think that's the beauty of being a full feet therapist, is it it is the challenge to step up, to step the up and do real work with your clients.
Tiffany(08:11):
I think we just got our reel. I think we just got our Instagram reel right there. Awesome. Okay. So let's, let's take it back. So before you, you started, when you, when you were working for the CDC, you got laid off, which was not part of your plan. You thought you had this secure job forever. You realized, all right, I have this practice, I'm gonna go fold into it. Did you get in on, on insurance panels right away?
Tavari(08:31):
Yeah, so that's the irony. So I was actually working for a hospital system. I was running a cancer wellness program, a comprehensive program, free of charge. We were doing cooking demos. I had a massage therapist. We were doing yoga. But it wasn't a sustainable model, and I understood that. So I was laid off on a Monday, that Tuesday, and again, trepidatious, you know, like I did not necessarily want to go full throttle in my business, but that Tuesday I got a message from Cigna. I didn't even remember applying to be on their panels that I could see their, their see their Cigna clients. And so I thought saw that as like a sign, like, okay, this is the direction I'm supposed to be going in on Wednesday. I, ironically, I got my first full fee client at $150. So I was kind of dancing in the space of getting on insurance panels. And I'm gonna go ahead and tell you I was on all of them. I was on every insurance panel. 'cause I thought that was the way to build your practice. Like that's what you're supposed to do is to get on insurance and really serve the people, right? Like, and serve my people, people who work, people who are paying into insurance. It made sense to, to serve that kind of working class population. But at the same time, kind of balancing this, you know, not everybody's on insurance and, and finding those full fee clients as well.
Tiffany(09:47):
Very interesting. So you, on its face, you're doing everything right? You're on panels, you get on all the panels, you already have someone at a, your full fee, cash pay coming in. What were some signs that made you start thinking, Hmm, maybe this insurance thing is not for me, given how committed you were and how it was just what it was, the thing to do, what started happening that made you have a different perspective?
Tavari(10:16):
Well, first and foremost, I think the first thing was probably the pandemic and what was happening in the pandemic. So I had gotten a, received a call from Aetna to do some EAP work on site. And so I'm, the, the phone's ringing. I'm like, I'm not looking for a job, I'm good, right? But they called several times. So it's like, well, you always take the call, right? Like, that's, that's a rule. Take the call, see what people are talking about. And they were, they had offered $85 an hour guaranteed on site for a local airline. Well, I live in Atlanta. I know exactly what airline you're talking about. I live down the street from the airport. My office is down the street from the airport. And I said, that's even how you found me. You found me because I have an airport address and I'm physically close to the airport.
Tavari(11:06):
And so what I was doing is I was working for Delta Airlines in person and still running my private practice. But that had me at a point where I'm seeing 30 to 35 clients a week, which was, well, let me, let me say, which was fine, as long as Delta employees didn't know I existed, as long as they weren't actually coming to appointments. And I was guaranteed $85 an hour, and I'm sitting there doing my notes or preparing for my private practice clients. It was in the ramp up when I started actually seeing 30 to 35 people a week and thinking that I was doing a good job. And let, let me just get to that point. Like, so the first point is that I was burned out and didn't even realize it, that I'm good at working. I'm good at being the little hamster on the wheel.
Tavari(11:51):
I'm good at exchanging my time for money. But my partner at the time said to me, you're exhausted. And he literally, what he said to me, he looked at me and he said, oh, you think what you're doing is working? It's not, and I'm not gonna take the residuals. So first point, having someone hold up the mirror and say, what you are doing is not working. You're spinning out, you're exhausted, and you're bringing home the leftovers. And we deserve better than that. That's the first point. The second point is I have a, a, my, my doctorate's in counselor education and supervision. So I had supervisees during the pandemic. They were charging the exact same rate that I am. Strange to me, problematic. Okay. So people who are junior to me are making the same amount that I am. Okay. But I'm signing off on their license.
Tavari(12:44):
And then that, that last piece was, you know, I think being in private practice, I was in a little silo. I was just in this little bubble, and I didn't even know how much other therapists were making. And you know, insurance companies are really good about saying, you know, this kind of non-disclosure piece that you're not supposed to be talking about your rates. So I was being a good, I would say insurance employee. I think it's a farce to think that we work on work for ourselves. When you're taking insurance, you don't work for yourself. When you accept insurance, you work for the insurance companies, they decide when you get your raises, they decide when to claw back money. They decide what they're going to reimburse you for. You work for the insurance companies. And at, and at some point, you know, with that combination of things, I had to say to myself, this isn't working. What, what, what I thought, what I was supposed to do isn't the thing that's working best for me. It's not my best interest.
Tiffany(13:34):
What, what was the tipping point? I'm sure your partner actually even, let's back up your partner at the time, what did he see? What if we were to step out and see what he saw? What was he looking at when you came home? At the end of the day,
Tavari(13:47):
The lack of light in my eyes. So when I am energized, when I have space, when I, when I am full, I sparkle and, and I bring that to my therapy sessions, right? But if I'm giving that away, giving all day, my shine is gone. The light leaves left my eyes. And, and he actually said it on a day. He and I, we happened, we traveled to California a lot. We happened to be in California. I'm taking clients virtually. And I had had four, it was a Friday, and I only had four of 'em, like my favorite clients, people that I enjoy working with. And, and, and if you had asked me, I would've said, no, no, no. I'm invigorated by working with these people. He came in the room and he was like, you're dead. You're flat, you're gone. And I'm not gonna deal with this anymore. So if you keep working like this, we're gonna have to figure something out. You
Tiffany(14:40):
(00:43):
Know? Oh, so he put a, he he gave an ultimatum.
Tavari(14:43):
Yeah. The, the irony is he, that he was like, oh, I, all this time I thought that you knew this wasn't working. And I was like, no, no, no, this works. And he's like no, it does not.
Tiffany(14:53):
Wow. So you're going along, seeing your 30, 35 clients a week telling the story to yourself and others. I'm invigorated. This is great.
Tavari(15:02):
Yeah, no, mind you, I, I'm one of those therapists who admit that on at least two occasions I've falling asleep on clients. 'cause I'm actually exhausted.
Tiffany(15:10):
So I'm glad you said that publicly because I know a lot of people listening to the show have been in the same boat and they're just pretending it's not happening. And they're saying it's working, and they're saying, I love it. I'm invigorated. I'm serving the people. I'm doing what I'm here to do. But it's not true.
Tavari(15:24):
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you are exhausted and your family's
Tiffany(15:29):
Complaining. Let me just jump in here to say, I know that you are being inspired. Challenged called out, called in. As you listen to Dr. Avari, talk about her experience, going from stressed out in denial, seeing 30 to 35 people a week to having the experience of expansion, freedom, ease in her day-to-day life. A life where she can actually show up for her daughter, where she can actually show up for herself. If you are curious about what this could look like for you, I invite you to take the first step, which is to go to lean in make bank.com/free. Or just click the link in the show notes below. Download our fun with fee private practice calculator. Give yourself a little taste of what it means to have desire. Give yourself a little taste of what life could look like for you and what fee you would have to be charging in order to have this life. To experience the freedom to experience the emancipation from a system that was not designed for you to win a little taste of what it would be like for you to design your own game, to play by your own rules and truly live, lean in make bank.com/free. Or just scroll right down to these show notes. Click the link, let's go. Alright, back to the show.
Tiffany(17:05):
So what the, the, the, this, didn't it just happen like this clearly had been going on for some time. Can you say what the turning point where you literally said, I I'm not, I'm actually not gonna do this anymore and started making a change. What happened? Is there a moment in time? Yeah,
Tavari(17:23):
I think, I think my partner's saying that. And then I think the reality that I'm subsidizing other people's therapy, that there's a cost associated with this. And rather than allowing other people to pay the cost of their therapy, not only am I willing to pay for it, but I'm asking my child and my partner to pay for it. And so maybe I am willing to pay for it. So let's look at that. Like, am I willing to subsidize your therapy? Maybe, maybe not. But did I ask this kid, is she willing to subsidize my your therapy? No. And let me tell you, my child would emphatically tell you no. At five or at six years old, she would tell me, your clients need to wait. I need something. Okay, now, now we've established the hierarchy. Now we've establ we've reassessed the priorities, right? Because my clients can all find another therapist. My daughter doesn't get the opportunity to choose another mother.
Tiffany(18:18):
Isn't it interesting how, go ahead.
Tavari(18:20):
No, I was gonna say, I don't get to see 5, 6, 7, and eight years old, years old. You know, like those years are are fleeting.
(01:04):
Tiffany(18:26):
That's right. That's why I was gonna say how, how often we will put ourselves on the back burner, put our little parts aside. But once we have kids and we can see it outside of ourselves, the sacrifice and the cost often we're not willing to co compromise. Although I will say that still many therapists will continue to compromise even when they have kids right out there who, who who are, who are needing them, and they're not showing up. Yeah.
Tavari(18:50):
I, I have a kid who's a little therapist and she will, she knows how to, to challenge you to articulate it. She's com she's comfortable with confrontation. I I'm, I'm making a beast over here. I'm gonna tell you I love
Tiffany(19:00):
It. She's not taking it.
Tavari(19:02):
Yeah, not at all. Not at all. She won't take your excuses, you know?
Tiffany(19:06):
Okay. So you had a couple people in your life Yeah. Letting you know. Mm-Hmm? what? You couldn't know yourself at the time. Mm-Hmm. .
Tavari(19:13):
Okay. 'cause You feel good serving. You feel like, oh, I'm in my purpose. I'm, I'm doing the work. But you're not, you're not doing inspiring work if you're exhausted.
Tiffany(19:21):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So you said, I'm getting off. Your partner is saying, you gotta get off your daughter's like you need to show up for me. What was scary? What, what, what scared you about the thought of getting off insurance panels?
Tavari(19:34):
Some of it was the, the actual process. I did not set up my practice. Someone else actually helped me set the practice up. And so to a certain degree I had lost touch with what contracts do I have and what, when do the contracts end? And it's funny I talk a lot to my clients about being like a damsel in distress and the fact that nobody's coming to save you. So you watch those old cartoons where the girls loosely tied to the train track and she's waiting for the heroin to come get her. I think particularly as, as, as women, but also particularly as women of color. Nobody's coming for you, baby. Nobody's coming to rescue you. But there's a part of me that was a abandoned and neglected and not care for as a child and abandoned and neglected and not cared for.
Tavari(20:21):
Well in relationships that really just desires to be cared for. I really just wanna put everything on autopilot and just let it run. Like I said earlier, I wanna be the talent. I don't wanna have to think about these other things. So coming off of insurance panels was me kind of reconciling with, this is your business and you need to take charge. You can't allow somebody else to know all the passwords or, you know, know where the contracts are. Some of my challenge was that I think some of my old contracts were actually on an old computer. But even allowing that to be a hurdle, you know, at some point we just have to pick up the phone and call and call each one of the companies and say, Hey, I'm trying to get off of this panel. What do I need to do? You know, or resend me the contract or I need an updated contract. But I hadn't even since 2018, I'd never even called the insurance companies to renegotiate my, my fees.
Tiffany(21:18):
There's something that, there's we talk about this in limb. There is we grief and mourning that comes along with stepping up because we're really saying, we're really accepting, you know, mom and dad weren't able to help me in these ways. No partner is ever, I'm never gonna have a parent or parental figure or anyone who's going to come to take care of me. It's only me. And it's both empowering, I found. But, but before it's empowering. It's, there's loss and mourning. Did you experience any of that?
Tavari(21:49):
(01:25):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there, because, and I think it's the, it's reopening the wound that they're still not coming. You know? And even, it doesn't matter how good I am, I can be, I can be kind, I can be good, I can be talented, I can be nice, I can be likable. I can be lovable. And they're still not coming to rescue me. Only I can loosen up these ropes. Which in that analogy, I always say like, they're not, you're not even tied to the tracks. Get up, get up, get moving. You know? So that was even just like that reminder to myself, like, you're the only person that can save you. No one else can do it. Even if they wanted to, half of them aren't even capable of doing it
Tiffany(22:31):
A hundred percent.
Tavari(22:31):
And that's okay. But I'm capable of doing it and I can do it and I will do it. That's
Tiffany(22:36):
Right. So you are, you are actually in the midst. We, this season of, of the money sessions we're having people on who are not, you know, 10 years past the journey or way past, we're talking to people who are in the process. So maybe the, their practice does not fall of $200 clients yet. They're on the journey. So where are you at in this process of leaving insurance panels, going full fee, cash money.
Tavari(22:58):
I'm off of two insurance panels. I still have to kind of wait out some, some of the dates with five insurance panels. But I currently have four full fee clients that are, they're working. Yeah. They're, they're working. And I see the shift. I feel the shift in the work that we're doing.
Tiffany(23:14):
What's your full fee? What's your fee now?
Tavari(23:16):
200, but I'm going to two shortly. So, and they understand that they're, we're going to two 50 shortly.
Tiffany(23:23):
Fabulous. Okay. So you're, you're, you have a foot in both worlds a little bit right now, correct? A foot in both worlds. Mm-Hmm.. So a lot often when people are at the point where they're about to get off all panels, they've made the change, they made the commitment, and now the panels are going, there is a moment of this is really gonna work. Can this happen? Oh no, some of my clients are leaving. They're not staying. Do you have, do you have any of that yet? You're still in the middle.
Tavari(23:46):
No. And some of it is a, it's an abundance mindset. Like I know that if, if you create it, they will come. And I think that sometimes other therapists are afraid 'cause they don't know these people. I don't know these people who are willing to spend $200 a week on their therapy or two 50 a week on, on themselves or have the means. And part of my thought is it's 'cause you're not swimming in that pool. Mm-Hmm. That, that we are in a, we, we've been in this insurance pool. So that's all we see. So it's almost like, you know that, that priming when you have a white car and everybody, it seems like everybody has a white car. Yeah. That's all you're seeing is insurance clients. 'cause That's all you see are insurance clients. That there are people out there. And I think the other piece is recognizing that attracting that kind of client, you're not attracting them.
Tavari(24:34):
'Cause You haven't said that's who you are. Hmm. You haven't said to them, you're not speaking to them. You're not speaking your, their language. You're not speaking their worth. I know you're in the Bay Area and I know lots of people in the bay who can afford therapy, who can afford your rates, and who want to see a therapist who is like-minded. You know, someone who can relate to the, the stress and strain of their life. And some of that is that financial piece that I make a million dollars a year. I make 1.2 a year. And I come from a family where my dad only made 85 a year and now I have exceeded these people and now I'm supporting them. Or now I feel some kind of way 'cause I no longer fit into the circles that I used to fit in. And some of that is that I, I have friends in that space that are, that are high earners, that have that high mindset. And you see that, that pull, that pull between the family of origin and this kind of new space. And what does that mean? So I feel comfortable in that space. I feel comfortable speaking to those people. And I know for sure they exist. I know these people because I go swim in their waters. Mm. I dip my toe in their waters and then I go back to the insurance waters.
Tiffany(25:43):
Mm-Hmm.. Well, you're gonna be in there. You're gonna be in the full, not even a pool. You're gonna be in the ocean soon.
(01:46):
Tavari(25:48):
I'm ready to backstroke. I want to dive in head first. I, let's go.
Tiffany(25:54):
You you said you made a comment about the difference, the difference in the work. When you're working with people who are paying full fee, they're not relying on their insurance or just going to 'cause you're cheap. What feels different about how you show up clinically?
Tavari(26:12):
I, I don't let my, I, I used to let my clients phone it in. I used to let them come in and just chat it up about the latest thing that happened since the last time we met. And I, I, I skipped past that more. You know, like, this isn't a check-in, or if you need to, if you need to give me an update, I'll say, we'll, we'll spend the first 10 minutes. And with my client earlier today, I said, I'm about to put on a timer. You have 10 minutes to update me. And then we're digging in many years ago, and sometimes I clients need that. Many years ago I had a client who was dying. Mm-Hmm. I knew, knew she was dying. She was a cancer patient. She knew she was dying. We would literally spend the first 20 minutes like breaking the ice and it would be very light and very giggly. And you could set a timer to us. After that 20 minutes was up, we would dig in and do the work. Very, very similar, that we're digging in differently. That I'm digging in, digging in differently. I'm requiring my clients to dig in differently that we're, we're here to do the work
Tiffany(27:07):
Makes a lot of, it makes a big difference. When, when someone is doing a $20 copay, it's kind of like they don't take their time seriously. We as therapists don't take their time seriously. We're not taking our time seriously. So it's just a waste versus when their money's on the line, you're earning it. They're coming here to do the work. It it, it hurts them a little bit to make this investment. We don't mess around. There's a, there's a, a seriousness with which we're taking that person's life as well as our own life.
Tavari(27:32):
And I think that a lot of, a lot of therapists would say that they are doing great work. But I would say, how could you possibly be with 35 clients or 30 clients, or even 25 clients? You know? And you've said it before and I've heard it on, on the Money sessions podcast. Like, nobody wants to be your 30th client 'cause you're, because you're exhausted. You couldn't possibly be giving them your very best. It's, it's, it's not even mathematically possible or to even to do the work in between, to think about, well, what more does this client need? Or what techniques am I not thinking about? Or, you know, that you, you're not pouring into yourself that you're constantly pouring out. So what's inspiring you? What's keeping you engaged? How are you engaging your clients in those ways if you are not engaged?
Tiffany(28:16):
Mm-Hmm. How do you, this is, we're gonna veer off for just a moment. And maybe you, you were this person so you could, you could give us some insight recently, right?
Tavari(28:24):
Very recently,
Tiffany(28:25):
The person who's listening right now who has 35 people, maybe they, maybe she's seeing 35 people a week. Maybe she has 50 people on our caseload. Some of 'em she's seeing once a month. Some of 'em, you know, every week. If she's saying, you, you don't understand me, Tavari you don't understand me, Tiffany. I do really good work with 35 people a week. I'm actually really showing up. How do you understand that? And when you were in that place, how, how do you think about that level of, I don't know if it's denial, I don't know if it's ever real for anyone. How do you think about the person in that mind state?
Tavari(28:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting 'cause I, when you're in that space, so you're like a hamster on a wheel. You don't have the, the, even the, the time or the bandwidth to really step back and look at your work If you're going from one client to the next five and six people a day. But I would, I would challenge them to step back and think with each of their clients, what more would they, if they had time, what more would you do with that person? What more, what, what, what would you change? Would you even get rid of the clients? I think that's another thing that, and and the through the podcast that I was really challenged with is seeing clients that I didn't enjoy working with. And even looking at, why don't I like this person? Why am I, why do I see this person's name on, on my calendar and think, oh God, you know, like, why is that?
Tavari(29:42):
And am I, am I truly doing my best work if I feel that way about the client? Right? Mm-Hmm. And also even asking your clients, getting feedback from them. So one of my clients, as I was kind of going to full fee and letting my clients know, you know, that I was, I, I let my clients know straight out like, one, I shouldn't be subsidizing your therapy. I've had clients over the years tell me that I was worth more. But I think in this like wanting to be seen, wanting to be recognized, that we want people to appreciate us. We want somehow, we want them to just offer us more money. They, we want them to value us in ways that we don't value ourselves. Why would they, why would they offer you more money? Why would they value you more when you've set your si set your prices at bargain basement discounts.
Tavari(30:27):
(02:07):
If I could get a designer bag at a bargain basement discount, I'm not gonna gonna just voluntarily give them the extra thousand dollars. I'm gonna give them what it is that they want. So I would, I would say for, you know, to take that time to, in a meditative mindful space, to step back and think, if I had the time, if I had the energy, if I had an abundance of funds, how would I be a, how would I be different as a therapist? 'cause Even if I had an, an endless amount of money, I would still do therapy. I really would. But it would look very different than it looks when I'm having to grind to do it.
Tiffany(31:04):
Folks, I told you, I told you you were gonna get some wi wisdom. You were gonna get some gems from Tari. I love this question. I've never heard it before. Now I'm gonna start repeating it. Whenever people are like, I do great work at 35, what would you be doing differently? How would you be showing up differently? How would, what would you be doing with this client in session and between sessions if you had much more time? What a beautiful question opening. It's an opening question because every single person listening has an answer to that. If they were only seeing 10 people, well, how could they be showing up for those 10 people differently than they're showing up for the 35 people? You, you have an answer to that folks listening. Ooh, right in by the way. Right in. Send us an Instagram message g us tell us how you think about that, what your answer to that question is. I think that's beautiful. Lemme ask you this. How is your life different as you're starting to do this work with your daughter, your day to day, how you're showing up in like, real tangible specifics. What feels different for you? What's happening differently for you?
Tavari(32:09):
It it's the space and it's the space to pour into myself. It's the space for exercise. It's the space for meditation. It's the space to one of my girlfriend's, mothers used to call it easing into the day that I'm not, you know, jumping out of bed and, and going straight to work. That I'm, I spend the first hour of the day drinking coffee and looking for deer or bunny rabbits in my backyard. And, and what that does, how that allows me to feed my spirit, how that allows my heart to open looking for creating space for journaling to think, to even think about like, what is it that my clients need from me today? What is it that my household needs from me today? And how am I gonna balance those things? It has offered me, you know, like space. But then al also opportunity, opportunities to read and to find more inspiration and to think about my clients differently.
Tavari(33:04):
Opportunities to prioritize listening to a podcast that, that pours into me. So then I can then pour into my client to pour into my daughter opportunities to think about my daughter in different ways. Like, okay, these things are working, what else should we do? What else can we try? What might be fun? What what can we enjoy today? Do I, do I, am I too tired to sit on the floor and play Barbies with her? Or am I gonna make intentional time, space and energy to sit with this child and play Barbies for 30 minutes? Or am I, do I need to cook? Do I need to clean the kitchen? Am I exhausted? Am I thinking about clients? No, I'm squarely focused on her. I'm squarely focused on my partner. I'm squarely focused on me without distraction. That's what it's done. And, and you know, you alluded to this too, like even being able to do research on your clients to be curious about your clients, to, to carve out space, to just think about them, to process them, to think about what is it they might want, need or desire that they haven't asked for.
Tavari(34:10):
What is it that they might want, need or desire that they haven't found voice for? And how can I give voice to that thing you running from client to client? You don't have space for that. You, you're, if, if you think you are, you're kidding yourself. I'm gonna tell you. You don't, you don't, you don't,
Tiffany(34:25):
You don't. And we know you don't because the questions Ari just asked, the types of experiences she's describing right now. I mean, you're not, you are not having those experiences. You are not looking at the deer and the bunny hopping around in your backyard. If you're seeing 35 plants a week,
Tavari(34:40):
We have named and renamed the rabbits. I just want you guys to know that we have peanut butter buttercup.
Tiffany(34:47):
Those folks are not naming the rabbits in their backyard If they're seeing 35 people a
Tavari(34:53):
Week. And Tiffany, that's what I want to do. I want to sit and name the rabbits. That's what life is about.. I'm trying to buy back my freedom, my 40 acres and a mule. Yes. I want to be free. Yes. Seeing 35 clients a week is not freedom. It's
Tiffany(35:11):
Not
Tavari(35:11):
Freedom. That is slavery.
(02:28):
Tiffany(35:13):
That's right. You're, you're chuckling, but you're absolutely, this is serious. This is right. Yeah.
Tavari(35:20):
No, I'm, I'm chuckling because I actually have a pimp analogy that I'm trying to save, but Yeah. But the insurance companies that are pimping us, yeah, they're getting their cut first. That's
Tiffany(35:30):
Right.
Tavari(35:30):
And then we get whatever they decide we're worth. You know, we have to set our worth. We have to decide where our value is and tell people what that value is and they will come. And some of them will come because you are so bold to say what your value is, and they want some of your magic. They wanna figure out how can, how and why are you so confident in yourself? I need that in my life. Yeah. That's why they'll come. That's right. But we have to demonstrate it. We have to model it. But you know, we all learned in school, we can't take pay people to places that we're not willing to go. But if you're not willing to grow, if you're not willing to challenge yourself, if you're not willing to sit in your own fear and discomfort, then how could you possibly be getting your clients to do it? I'm not, I'm not convinced it's you could, you could try to sell me on it. I'm just not convinced. 'cause You, you, they, they're not gonna be able to go. They, they need you to lead. And so to be a good leader, you have to demonstrate it.
Tiffany(36:34):
But I've been asking therapists a little bit more often on these podcasts about their marketing. Mm-Hmm.. Because I know a lot of people are curious about that with you. And I want, I want listeners to hear this. When you hear Ari talk, I imagine a large swath of you is thinking to yourself, I wanna like, I just wanna set up a session. Maybe it's for therapy, maybe it's for consultation. You wanna have access to her mind because you hear that she's not only talking the talk, but she's walking the walk. And I think when therapists not, I think I have seen it over and over again when therapists are willing to push themselves to go out of their comfort zone, to actually go after what they want when it is terrifying marketing works. Versus if you're desperate and scrabbling and trying to figure out whatever latest technique or strategy. I don't think it's about that. Can you speak a little bit to marketing in your practice now?
Tavari(37:24):
So I think it's, it's, it's about being authentic, right? And being genuine. I always give it this compared to the music industry. So if you have a Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Jay-Z and you say, well, these 10 artists rap like Jay-Z why would I buy their album when I could get the original, when I could buy Jay-Z's? So I, I think sometimes we get, we get caught up in the formula, like the Hollywood formula. I'm gonna do it the way everybody else did it. I think we have to figure out like what works for us and who am I? So first and foremost, who am I and who am I targeting? You know, my focus for a long time had been health psychology, been around health issues. But then you get everybody, everyone comes in because you are authentic. So I think first and foremost, being authentic.
Tavari(38:09):
I originally was not marketing myself prior to coming into li I, I, I made little effort to market because I, all my clients were coming in word of mouth. I was either, I do a lot of corporate training. So I, I meet individuals that way. People connect with me in a way that feels genuine to them. Doing a podcast like this, people feel like, oh, I get her energy, I get her spirit. I wanna talk to her. So I had not explicitly gone out and, and marketed. But I think one of those, one of those key things is putting you that you are the number one tool. It's not C-B-T-R-E-B-T-D-B-T, like you are the number one tool in therapy. So that's the thing that, that you need, you have to put out there is this is what you're gonna get. This is what you can expect.
Tavari(38:52):
And speaking directly to your clients. And, and we talk about that a lot in limb like that you're not making these kind of vague in general, oh, I, I cope with, I work with anxiety or depression. Well, every therapist works with anxiety and depression 'cause that's literally what comes through our door, right? But to be very specific in your marketing and know that you're still gonna cut, it's like a, a net that you're putting in the ocean you might be looking for for salmon, but you're gonna pull up trout, you're gonna pull up redfish. And so that's, again, that's, that's my a abundance mindset that as long as I'm going out there and marketing myself and demonstrating this is who I am, this is what I have to offer, I'm gonna pull all kinds of things in, then it's up to my discernment to say, that's a boot. Let me throw that, let me throw that boot back in the ocean. That's not for me. You know?
Tiffany(39:40):
Yeah. Okay. I think you've already given, I have a question around just pieces of strategic advice. You've already given so much advice, you've given so much wisdom, and I'm still gonna ask you this question. We have, you know, mod, we have Alicia, they're out there listening to this, seeing 30 clients a week right now on insurance panels. And they're, and they, you broke through to them. They're like, okay, wait a minute. I know that I'm not doing my best work, but I'm terrified. I got a family to support. Maybe I'm a single mom, maybe I'm the primary breadwinner. Maybe I'm in a rural area. I, I I don't know if this is gonna work for me. What would you say, what are one to three things you would say either strategic advice or mindset for that person listening right now?
Tavari(40:24):
Yeah. I think the first thing is, if you don't think it's gonna work, you're right. It's not like you're, you're, you are in the way. You are the first hurdle. So first and foremost to the understanding that the, the only limitation is really you. And to allow yourself the space to expand, the space to grow, you are not going to be able to see everyone. This is like speed dating. Not everybody's for you. We're, we're looking for the, the right clients. And that doesn't mean that you won't, won't get to see the other ones. I think sometimes we get caught up in our humanitarian spirit, like I wanna serve these other people. When you have abundance, you can serve people. So I had a supervisee that reached a former supervisee that reached out to me for a consultation and she is going through it and I was trying to figure out like, you know what, I should really charge her my full fee.
Tavari(41:20):
(02:49):
But then I decided I've had enough full fee clients this week that, that she's going to be my give this week. But recognizing that you'll still be able to see the people that you want to serve. You'll still be able to offer whatever form of fellowship that you want to offer, but you get to choose where it is. You don't have a third party, an insurance company deciding that you need to give. And you don't have a client that's telling you that you have to give to them. You decide that what you wanna give. I think that other piece of what I've been saying is that is more of an abundance mindset is just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you live in a rural area doesn't mean there aren't people who are driving Subarus and living in a little house that want to spend money just 'cause you don't see the ACC on that.
Tavari(42:07):
They want to spend money on their wellness and their wellbeing. Matter of fact, that's come to find out that's where all their investment goes into their wellbeing. But they're not flashy 'cause they're not giving their money away. They want to work with someone who wants to work, who wants to not just phone it in. Maybe they've had experiences with other therapists where was, so how are you doing? And what's going on? Great. You seem to be fine. You know? So I think even advertising what it is that you do and, and what it is that you have to offer and how you see behavior change working and how, how, how, what are your, what's your process? And people will connect with that. And then that last piece is what we, what we were saying earlier is nobody else is gonna do it for you. So
Tiffany(42:53):
If
Tavari(42:53):
You don't do it, you're right. It's not gonna happen. It'll never happen if you don't get up, put on your big girl panties and make it happen. That's the only way that it happens. But we have plenty of evidence of individuals who are out there charging 200, 2 50, 2 75, 3 75 and they're able to get that with those payments. But I think the other interesting thing is when you're seeing 35 clients, like if you just cut that in half, if you doubled the, the fee for 15 clients, you'll be making your money. So of those people that you're seeing, how many of them were, are willing to stay with you and convert? And then how many other people are out there that you just haven't met yet? 'cause You've been swimming in the cesspool of insurance.
Tiffany(43:38):
The cesspool,
Tavari(43:40):
The cesspool.
Tiffany(43:43):
We've already done so much deep diving. We touched on this before deep. Also, folks, please be taking notes. If you are not taking notes, go back and listen to this again. Write down what Ari is saying or just better yet, give her a call. I wanna come back to this night in shining armor thing. This knight in shining armor mentality. I wanna show up and be the talent. And look, I think there will be a time in your life if you want this, that you can show up and be the talent because you've set yourself up, you've done the order of operations in order to have a team around you that's allowing you to just show up and do the work that is possible. Takes it, takes strategy. I think you can absolutely do that in time. That being said, this knight and shining army mentality, can you talk to us a little bit about where it come, where it comes from? You, you growing up, you coming up in the world what were some of the contributing factors to wanting to just have, have it taken care of for you?
Tavari(44:40):
Yeah, that it was never that. It was never done that I've always worked. I had my first babysitting job when I was 10. I had my first W2 job when I was 13. I lied and said I was fir 15 and then actually filed taxes that year. But, you know, that was back in the day when you could get away with, with such matters. And I put myself through college. Neither of my par parents ever sent me a single scintilla towards school. I have always worked. I've always been on the grind. I've always provided for myself. I moved out of my mother's house when I was 16 years old. I tried to get my own apartment, but my best friend's mom stopped me and moved me into their house. 'cause I think she knew that if I had an apartment, her daughter would be at my apartment.
Tavari(45:21):
So that was wise on her part. We were 16, she was 32. She was young enough to understand what was gonna happen if I had an apartment. And then, I mean, just so honest. I've done everything by myself and I am deserving of love. I I know this, I am deserving of care, but it just doesn't come that way. I have to do the work to get what it is that I need. I have to mother myself. I have to nurture myself. I've always had to. Is it fair? No. And, but we know that life isn't fair and it continues to not be fair. Tiffany. Those are the cards that I was dealt. Whether or not I should have been dealt them, we could have a whole analytic conversation about that. But what I do know is this is my reality. And so I have to play with the cards that are in front of me.
Tavari(46:11):
I have to play in my reality. And my reality is no one's coming. It's up to me. And the beauty of it is no one's coming. It's up to me. I can do it all. I can do it all. I'm in control. I'm in charge. I don't have to wait for somebody else to say yes. I don't have to ask anybody's permission. I can just get out there and do what it is that I want to do with my existence, with my business, with my own therapeutic work. It's up to me. And that's liberating. That's, that is actual freedom.
Tiffany(46:45):
That's right. Ari. People want to talk to you. People want to call you. How can they do it? Yeah. How, where, where can people find you?
(03:10):
Tavari(46:54):
So you could always DM me at doctor underscore therapy underscore Ari. So Dr. Actually, I'm sorry, Dr. Ari therapy on ig. And then I have a phone number. Eight five five eight eight two four three two five four three two five.
Tiffany(47:16):
Okay, we'll make sure to include that in the show notes. Dr. I wasn't calling you Dr this whole time, Dr. Ari. That's
Tavari(47:24):
Okay. We're, we're, we're, we're peers, we're colleagues.
Tiffany(47:26):
No, ma'am. If someone has a doctor before their name, I like to whip it out. I that every chance
Tavari(47:31):
That, no, I have a couple of clients every now and then they'll try to call me Tavari and I kind of cringe,
Tiffany(47:36):
Doctor, when I do this intro, I'll make sure to get that right. Beautiful. Awesome. So on Instagram, we'll put that in. Or people can just call you directly. Folks listening. If you have been inspired by what you've heard, I certainly have. This is why we're, you know, again, we're slowly bringing current students on our show, but I'm like, we gotta get tamari. We gotta get tamari on our show. If you are inspired, challenged, uncomfortable, if you feel like I want a little bit of that, but I don't know if it's possible for me, I encourage you to give Dr. Brown a call. Set up an appointment, see what it feels like to pay two 50 per session to sit across from somebody who has gone on the journey that you're trying to go on minimum two 50 to see what is she doing, how is she's thinking? What would it look like for me to walk in those shoes? I highly encourage you to give her a call. Dr. Avari, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you,
Tavari(48:32):
Tiffany. It's been an honor and a privilege and I love the limb community. Just such, so many powerful beings in there.
Tiffany(48:38):
Thank you.
Outro(48:44):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to Right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Tiffany(00:01):
(00:01):
Holy mackerel, you are in for a treat. Today we have on the show Dr. Tavari Brown, who is going to be sharing her journey, which is currently in process of de Panelling from insurance going cash pay, charging 200 to two 50 a session. What is it like, what led her to make this decision? What is it like to be in the midst of deep paneling from all insurance and going cash pay in her private practice? Let me tell you, I, I was excited to have Dr. Tavari on the show. I am even more excited now that we have actually recorded our episode. You are going to get phenomenal insights about what was happening in her mind. You are going to have a real talk from her about the way she was in denial about how she was running her business. You are going to have strategic steps to what it takes to have a cash pay premium fee practice.
Tiffany(01:06):
I'm really excited for you to check out this episode. I already want you to share it with a friend. And look, I say this, I know you're not even in the, into the episode yet. You don't even know who I am. If this is your first time listening, by the way, my name is Tiffany McLain, licensed Marriage and Family therapist. Be strategist. I have been running the Lean In Make Bank Academy for the past seven years, and I'm here to help you be emancipated from a system that was not designed for you. If you have listened to the show for years, and I know some of you have, please send this to your listserv. I know you're nervous. I know you don't think we're allowed to be talking about this stuff, but it's really important that we get the word out. Send this to your listserv, text it to a friend. If you are new to the show, sit back, relax, welcome your safety belt, prepared to be challenged. Prepared to be inspired, prepared to be introduced to a new paradigm of thinking about yourself as a clinician in private practice. Let's go.
Intro (02:11):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost. I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(02:54):
Alright, folks, I am so excited to bring Ari Brown to you today. Tari is in our community right now. Lean in, make, make, and she, whenever she opens her mouth to talk to the other students, she just says something that's like, bow, Ooh, beautiful. I don't even need to say anything. Just her wisdom is phenomenal. Her experience. Woo. So we're gonna, we're gonna just dive right in. Tavari, please start by telling folks a little bit about you and your practice as it now stands.
Tavari(03:25):
All right. Well, I'm Tavari Brown. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. Went to uc, Berkeley for undergrad, NYU for grad school. Was there during September 11th and watched that second plane go through the tower and said this tree did not grow in Brooklyn, and decided to make my way back to Atlanta. At the time, I actually had a master's degree in public health, was doing a lot of work in behavior change. So, interestingly enough, I actually chose psychology when I was 10 years old. And I was trying to figure out, you know, should I become a psychologist or should I become a psychiatrist? As a little kid, decided I didn't wanna write prescriptions for whatever reason but was really discouraged when I went to Berkeley. Went to Berkeley. I, it, it seemed very research oriented. You would think the counseling psychology didn't exist.
Tavari(04:09):
So I went this kind of public health route. And so by the time I went back, came back to Atlanta, I was working for the CDC as a public health advisor, and still not quite getting what I needed. And, and some of that is this balance between doing community work, but also doing that individual work. So for the last probably 15 years, I've had a private practice in name. So I started my practice in 2008. And then, and, you know, but trying to, I was born the year of the rabbit, the Chinese year of the rabbit. I burrow into security, and I know we'll talk more about this, like this kind of working class mentality. I'm good at getting jobs. I had my first job at age 13, I can get a job, right? But in 2018, I was actually laid off from the secure job, the safe, secure job, let me go.
Tavari(04:57):
And immediately door started opening. But I, to be honest with you, I never wanted to go into business. I wasn't interested in being in business. I really just wanna be the talent. I just wanna show up somebody else, keep the lights on, somebody else, think about, you know, it, I wanna come in, do my thing, do what I'm good at, clock out. So this was in 2018. I went, I went full-time in my private practice because I was pushed off the, the job ledge and really haven't looked back since. But, you know, obviously, you know, joining li there's some things that we have to work on, right? Like our mindset, our business acumen, all of those things. But I'm currently running a private practice in Atlanta. The majority of my clients are black and brown folks, L-G-B-T-Q-I, a lot of single single women individuals.
Tavari(05:49):
And I kind of went in with this specialty of like health psychology. So my focus for a long time has been grief. I've, I ran, ran a very powerful grief support group with with individuals who had lost their parents or who had lost a pregnancy. I'm doing some work around fertility issues, and I honestly love doing work around cancer and end of life issues. And I have found that the majority of my clients who are coming in, of course, they're dealing with anxiety, they're dealing with depression. But then we look at the things going on in their, their lives that, you know, they're having difficulties getting pregnant or difficulties in relationships or, you know, at a certain age we're dealing with our aging parents. And a lot of us are kind of sandwiched between having young children and figuring out what kind of parents do we wanna be, and then parenting our parents and dealing with, you know, 70, 80-year-old parents and all the challenges that come with these people who are adults and have agency and who have autonomy that we don't have guardianship over. But that's the place where those, that's my sweet spot. That's my passion, is really talking about the developmental stages and how we're working through those things as individuals.
Tiffany(06:56):
Beautiful. I know by the time we're done, there are gonna be people listening who are going to say, I wanna work with Tavari, so I'm glad you listed. Oh, and eventually we're gonna have you listing one thing. You're gonna be like, I am gonna good at this. But you're still at the stage where you're listening a lot of stuff and a lot of really important stuff. Grief, fertility grief that comes with cancer. Being in the sandwich generation, having young kids and having all the parents, so people listening. If any of those things are resonating with you, you wanna be in touch with Tari. Even if you're a therapist, you're probably a therapist listening to this. I encourage therapists who are listening to consult with therapists who are going on this journey. So I encourage you, if you're open, Tavari, to set up a consultation, full fee, cash money to learn about what Tavari is doing and how she's doing this. So,
Tavari(07:40):
Cash money, absolutely cash
Tiffany(07:42):
Money. This is no copy date. No. They're getting, they're getting some wisdom from you. Well,
(00:22):
Tavari(07:47):
We're here to work. And I think that's one of things that we'll really talk about is like, how often, you know, our clients come in and we're phoning it in, you know, that we're, we're chatting it up, we're, you know, having a, a conversation with them like, we're friends and we're not actually doing the work. But I think that's the beauty of being a full feet therapist, is it it is the challenge to step up, to step the up and do real work with your clients.
Tiffany(08:11):
I think we just got our reel. I think we just got our Instagram reel right there. Awesome. Okay. So let's, let's take it back. So before you, you started, when you, when you were working for the CDC, you got laid off, which was not part of your plan. You thought you had this secure job forever. You realized, all right, I have this practice, I'm gonna go fold into it. Did you get in on, on insurance panels right away?
Tavari(08:31):
Yeah, so that's the irony. So I was actually working for a hospital system. I was running a cancer wellness program, a comprehensive program, free of charge. We were doing cooking demos. I had a massage therapist. We were doing yoga. But it wasn't a sustainable model, and I understood that. So I was laid off on a Monday, that Tuesday, and again, trepidatious, you know, like I did not necessarily want to go full throttle in my business, but that Tuesday I got a message from Cigna. I didn't even remember applying to be on their panels that I could see their, their see their Cigna clients. And so I thought saw that as like a sign, like, okay, this is the direction I'm supposed to be going in on Wednesday. I, ironically, I got my first full fee client at $150. So I was kind of dancing in the space of getting on insurance panels. And I'm gonna go ahead and tell you I was on all of them. I was on every insurance panel. 'cause I thought that was the way to build your practice. Like that's what you're supposed to do is to get on insurance and really serve the people, right? Like, and serve my people, people who work, people who are paying into insurance. It made sense to, to serve that kind of working class population. But at the same time, kind of balancing this, you know, not everybody's on insurance and, and finding those full fee clients as well.
Tiffany(09:47):
Very interesting. So you, on its face, you're doing everything right? You're on panels, you get on all the panels, you already have someone at a, your full fee, cash pay coming in. What were some signs that made you start thinking, Hmm, maybe this insurance thing is not for me, given how committed you were and how it was just what it was, the thing to do, what started happening that made you have a different perspective?
Tavari(10:16):
Well, first and foremost, I think the first thing was probably the pandemic and what was happening in the pandemic. So I had gotten a, received a call from Aetna to do some EAP work on site. And so I'm, the, the phone's ringing. I'm like, I'm not looking for a job, I'm good, right? But they called several times. So it's like, well, you always take the call, right? Like, that's, that's a rule. Take the call, see what people are talking about. And they were, they had offered $85 an hour guaranteed on site for a local airline. Well, I live in Atlanta. I know exactly what airline you're talking about. I live down the street from the airport. My office is down the street from the airport. And I said, that's even how you found me. You found me because I have an airport address and I'm physically close to the airport.
Tavari(11:06):
And so what I was doing is I was working for Delta Airlines in person and still running my private practice. But that had me at a point where I'm seeing 30 to 35 clients a week, which was, well, let me, let me say, which was fine, as long as Delta employees didn't know I existed, as long as they weren't actually coming to appointments. And I was guaranteed $85 an hour, and I'm sitting there doing my notes or preparing for my private practice clients. It was in the ramp up when I started actually seeing 30 to 35 people a week and thinking that I was doing a good job. And let, let me just get to that point. Like, so the first point is that I was burned out and didn't even realize it, that I'm good at working. I'm good at being the little hamster on the wheel.
Tavari(11:51):
I'm good at exchanging my time for money. But my partner at the time said to me, you're exhausted. And he literally, what he said to me, he looked at me and he said, oh, you think what you're doing is working? It's not, and I'm not gonna take the residuals. So first point, having someone hold up the mirror and say, what you are doing is not working. You're spinning out, you're exhausted, and you're bringing home the leftovers. And we deserve better than that. That's the first point. The second point is I have a, a, my, my doctorate's in counselor education and supervision. So I had supervisees during the pandemic. They were charging the exact same rate that I am. Strange to me, problematic. Okay. So people who are junior to me are making the same amount that I am. Okay. But I'm signing off on their license.
Tavari(12:44):
And then that, that last piece was, you know, I think being in private practice, I was in a little silo. I was just in this little bubble, and I didn't even know how much other therapists were making. And you know, insurance companies are really good about saying, you know, this kind of non-disclosure piece that you're not supposed to be talking about your rates. So I was being a good, I would say insurance employee. I think it's a farce to think that we work on work for ourselves. When you're taking insurance, you don't work for yourself. When you accept insurance, you work for the insurance companies, they decide when you get your raises, they decide when to claw back money. They decide what they're going to reimburse you for. You work for the insurance companies. And at, and at some point, you know, with that combination of things, I had to say to myself, this isn't working. What, what, what I thought, what I was supposed to do isn't the thing that's working best for me. It's not my best interest.
Tiffany(13:34):
What, what was the tipping point? I'm sure your partner actually even, let's back up your partner at the time, what did he see? What if we were to step out and see what he saw? What was he looking at when you came home? At the end of the day,
Tavari(13:47):
The lack of light in my eyes. So when I am energized, when I have space, when I, when I am full, I sparkle and, and I bring that to my therapy sessions, right? But if I'm giving that away, giving all day, my shine is gone. The light leaves left my eyes. And, and he actually said it on a day. He and I, we happened, we traveled to California a lot. We happened to be in California. I'm taking clients virtually. And I had had four, it was a Friday, and I only had four of 'em, like my favorite clients, people that I enjoy working with. And, and, and if you had asked me, I would've said, no, no, no. I'm invigorated by working with these people. He came in the room and he was like, you're dead. You're flat, you're gone. And I'm not gonna deal with this anymore. So if you keep working like this, we're gonna have to figure something out. You
Tiffany(14:40):
(00:43):
Know? Oh, so he put a, he he gave an ultimatum.
Tavari(14:43):
Yeah. The, the irony is he, that he was like, oh, I, all this time I thought that you knew this wasn't working. And I was like, no, no, no, this works. And he's like no, it does not.
Tiffany(14:53):
Wow. So you're going along, seeing your 30, 35 clients a week telling the story to yourself and others. I'm invigorated. This is great.
Tavari(15:02):
Yeah, no, mind you, I, I'm one of those therapists who admit that on at least two occasions I've falling asleep on clients. 'cause I'm actually exhausted.
Tiffany(15:10):
So I'm glad you said that publicly because I know a lot of people listening to the show have been in the same boat and they're just pretending it's not happening. And they're saying it's working, and they're saying, I love it. I'm invigorated. I'm serving the people. I'm doing what I'm here to do. But it's not true.
Tavari(15:24):
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you are exhausted
Tiffany(15:29):
Complaining. Let me just jump in here to say, I know that you are being inspired. Challenged called out, called in. As you listen to Dr. Avari, talk about her experience, going from stressed out in denial, seeing 30 to 35 people a week to having the experience of expansion, freedom, ease in her day-to-day life. A life where she can actually show up for her daughter, where she can actually show up for herself. If you are curious about what this could look like for you, I invite you to take the first step, which is to go to lean in make bank.com/free. Or just click the link in the show notes below. Download our fun with fee private practice calculator. Give yourself a little taste of what it means to have desire. Give yourself a little taste of what life could look like for you and what fee you would have to be charging in order to have this life. To experience the freedom to experience the emancipation from a system that was not designed for you to win a little taste of what it would be like for you to design your own game, to play by your own rules and truly live, lean in make bank.com/free. Or just scroll right down to these show notes. Click the link, let's go. Alright, back to the show.
Tiffany(17:05):
So what the, the, the, this, didn't it just happen like this clearly had been going on for some time. Can you say what the turning point where you literally said, I I'm not, I'm actually not gonna do this anymore and started making a change. What happened? Is there a moment in time? Yeah,
Tavari(17:23):
I think, I think my partner's saying that. And then I think the reality that I'm subsidizing other people's therapy, that there's a cost associated with this. And rather than allowing other people to pay the cost of their therapy, not only am I willing to pay for it, but I'm asking my child and my partner to pay for it. And so maybe I am willing to pay for it. So let's look at that. Like, am I willing to subsidize your therapy? Maybe, maybe not. But did I ask this kid, is she willing to subsidize my your therapy? No. And let me tell you, my child would emphatically tell you no. At five or at six years old, she would tell me, your clients need to wait. I need something. Okay, now, now we've established the hierarchy. Now we've establ we've reassessed the priorities, right? Because my clients can all find another therapist. My daughter doesn't get the opportunity to choose another mother.
Tiffany(18:18):
Isn't it interesting how, go ahead.
Tavari(18:20):
No, I was gonna say, I don't get to see 5, 6, 7, and eight years old, years old. You know, like those years are are fleeting.
(01:04):
Tiffany(18:26):
That's right. That's why I was gonna say how, how often we will put ourselves on the back burner, put our little parts aside. But once we have kids and we can see it outside of ourselves, the sacrifice and the cost often we're not willing to co compromise. Although I will say that still many therapists will continue to compromise even when they have kids right out there who, who who are, who are needing them, and they're not showing up. Yeah.
Tavari(18:50):
I, I have a kid who's a little therapist and she will, she knows how to, to challenge you to articulate it. She's com she's comfortable with confrontation. I I'm, I'm making a beast over here. I'm gonna tell you I love
Tiffany(19:00):
It. She's not taking it.
Tavari(19:02):
Yeah, not at all. Not at all. She won't take your excuses, you know?
Tiffany(19:06):
Okay. So you had a couple people in your life Yeah. Letting you know. Mm-Hmm?
Tavari(19:13):
Okay. 'cause You feel good serving. You feel like, oh, I'm in my purpose. I'm, I'm doing the work. But you're not, you're not doing inspiring work if you're exhausted.
Tiffany(19:21):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So you said, I'm getting off. Your partner is saying, you gotta get off your daughter's like you need to show up for me. What was scary? What, what, what scared you about the thought of getting off insurance panels?
Tavari(19:34):
Some of it was the, the actual process. I did not set up my practice. Someone else actually helped me set the practice up. And so to a certain degree I had lost touch with what contracts do I have and what, when do the contracts end? And it's funny I talk a lot to my clients about being like a damsel in distress and the fact that nobody's coming to save you. So you watch those old cartoons where the girls loosely tied to the train track and she's waiting for the heroin to come get her. I think particularly as, as, as women, but also particularly as women of color. Nobody's coming for you, baby. Nobody's coming to rescue you. But there's a part of me that was a abandoned and neglected and not care for as a child and abandoned and neglected and not cared for.
Tavari(20:21):
Well in relationships that really just desires to be cared for. I really just wanna put everything on autopilot and just let it run. Like I said earlier, I wanna be the talent. I don't wanna have to think about these other things. So coming off of insurance panels was me kind of reconciling with, this is your business and you need to take charge. You can't allow somebody else to know all the passwords or, you know, know where the contracts are. Some of my challenge was that I think some of my old contracts were actually on an old computer. But even allowing that to be a hurdle, you know, at some point we just have to pick up the phone and call and call each one of the companies and say, Hey, I'm trying to get off of this panel. What do I need to do? You know, or resend me the contract or I need an updated contract. But I hadn't even since 2018, I'd never even called the insurance companies to renegotiate my, my fees.
Tiffany(21:18):
There's something that, there's we talk about this in limb. There is we grief and mourning that comes along with stepping up because we're really saying, we're really accepting, you know, mom and dad weren't able to help me in these ways. No partner is ever, I'm never gonna have a parent or parental figure or anyone who's going to come to take care of me. It's only me. And it's both empowering, I found. But, but before it's empowering. It's, there's loss and mourning. Did you experience any of that?
Tavari(21:49):
(01:25):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there, because, and I think it's the, it's reopening the wound that they're still not coming. You know? And even, it doesn't matter how good I am, I can be, I can be kind, I can be good, I can be talented, I can be nice, I can be likable. I can be lovable. And they're still not coming to rescue me. Only I can loosen up these ropes. Which in that analogy, I always say like, they're not, you're not even tied to the tracks. Get up, get up, get moving. You know? So that was even just like that reminder to myself, like, you're the only person that can save you. No one else can do it. Even if they wanted to, half of them aren't even capable of doing it
Tiffany(22:31):
A hundred percent.
Tavari(22:31):
And that's okay. But I'm capable of doing it and I can do it and I will do it. That's
Tiffany(22:36):
Right. So you are, you are actually in the midst. We, this season of, of the money sessions we're having people on who are not, you know, 10 years past the journey or way past, we're talking to people who are in the process. So maybe the, their practice does not fall of $200 clients yet. They're on the journey. So where are you at in this process of leaving insurance panels, going full fee, cash money.
Tavari(22:58):
I'm off of two insurance panels. I still have to kind of wait out some, some of the dates with five insurance panels. But I currently have four full fee clients that are, they're working. Yeah. They're, they're working. And I see the shift. I feel the shift in the work that we're doing.
Tiffany(23:14):
What's your full fee? What's your fee now?
Tavari(23:16):
200, but I'm going to two shortly. So, and they understand that they're, we're going to two 50 shortly.
Tiffany(23:23):
Fabulous. Okay. So you're, you're, you have a foot in both worlds a little bit right now, correct? A foot in both worlds. Mm-Hmm.
Tavari(23:46):
No. And some of it is a, it's an abundance mindset. Like I know that if, if you create it, they will come. And I think that sometimes other therapists are afraid 'cause they don't know these people. I don't know these people who are willing to spend $200 a week on their therapy or two 50 a week on, on themselves or have the means. And part of my thought is it's 'cause you're not swimming in that pool. Mm-Hmm. That, that we are in a, we, we've been in this insurance pool. So that's all we see. So it's almost like, you know that, that priming when you have a white car and everybody, it seems like everybody has a white car. Yeah. That's all you're seeing is insurance clients. 'cause That's all you see are insurance clients. That there are people out there. And I think the other piece is recognizing that attracting that kind of client, you're not attracting them.
Tavari(24:34):
'Cause You haven't said that's who you are. Hmm. You haven't said to them, you're not speaking to them. You're not speaking your, their language. You're not speaking their worth. I know you're in the Bay Area and I know lots of people in the bay who can afford therapy, who can afford your rates, and who want to see a therapist who is like-minded. You know, someone who can relate to the, the stress and strain of their life. And some of that is that financial piece that I make a million dollars a year. I make 1.2 a year. And I come from a family where my dad only made 85 a year and now I have exceeded these people and now I'm supporting them. Or now I feel some kind of way 'cause I no longer fit into the circles that I used to fit in. And some of that is that I, I have friends in that space that are, that are high earners, that have that high mindset. And you see that, that pull, that pull between the family of origin and this kind of new space. And what does that mean? So I feel comfortable in that space. I feel comfortable speaking to those people. And I know for sure they exist. I know these people because I go swim in their waters. Mm. I dip my toe in their waters and then I go back to the insurance waters.
Tiffany(25:43):
Mm-Hmm.
(01:46):
Tavari(25:48):
I'm ready to backstroke. I want to dive in head first. I, let's go.
Tiffany(25:54):
You you said you made a comment about the difference, the difference in the work. When you're working with people who are paying full fee, they're not relying on their insurance or just going to 'cause you're cheap. What feels different about how you show up clinically?
Tavari(26:12):
I, I don't let my, I, I used to let my clients phone it in. I used to let them come in and just chat it up about the latest thing that happened since the last time we met. And I, I, I skipped past that more. You know, like, this isn't a check-in, or if you need to, if you need to give me an update, I'll say, we'll, we'll spend the first 10 minutes. And with my client earlier today, I said, I'm about to put on a timer. You have 10 minutes to update me. And then we're digging in many years ago, and sometimes I clients need that. Many years ago I had a client who was dying. Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(27:07):
Makes a lot of, it makes a big difference. When, when someone is doing a $20 copay, it's kind of like they don't take their time seriously. We as therapists don't take their time seriously. We're not taking our time seriously. So it's just a waste versus when their money's on the line, you're earning it. They're coming here to do the work. It it, it hurts them a little bit to make this investment. We don't mess around. There's a, there's a, a seriousness with which we're taking that person's life as well as our own life.
Tavari(27:32):
And I think that a lot of, a lot of therapists would say that they are doing great work. But I would say, how could you possibly be with 35 clients or 30 clients, or even 25 clients? You know? And you've said it before and I've heard it on, on the Money sessions podcast. Like, nobody wants to be your 30th client 'cause you're, because you're exhausted. You couldn't possibly be giving them your very best. It's, it's, it's not even mathematically possible or to even to do the work in between, to think about, well, what more does this client need? Or what techniques am I not thinking about? Or, you know, that you, you're not pouring into yourself that you're constantly pouring out. So what's inspiring you? What's keeping you engaged? How are you engaging your clients in those ways if you are not engaged?
Tiffany(28:16):
Mm-Hmm. How do you, this is, we're gonna veer off for just a moment. And maybe you, you were this person so you could, you could give us some insight recently, right?
Tavari(28:24):
Very recently,
Tiffany(28:25):
The person who's listening right now who has 35 people, maybe they, maybe she's seeing 35 people a week. Maybe she has 50 people on our caseload. Some of 'em she's seeing once a month. Some of 'em, you know, every week. If she's saying, you, you don't understand me, Tavari you don't understand me, Tiffany. I do really good work with 35 people a week. I'm actually really showing up. How do you understand that? And when you were in that place, how, how do you think about that level of, I don't know if it's denial, I don't know if it's ever real for anyone. How do you think about the person in that mind state?
Tavari(28:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting 'cause I, when you're in that space, so you're like a hamster on a wheel. You don't have the, the, even the, the time or the bandwidth to really step back and look at your work If you're going from one client to the next five and six people a day. But I would, I would challenge them to step back and think with each of their clients, what more would they, if they had time, what more would you do with that person? What more, what, what, what would you change? Would you even get rid of the clients? I think that's another thing that, and and the through the podcast that I was really challenged with is seeing clients that I didn't enjoy working with. And even looking at, why don't I like this person? Why am I, why do I see this person's name on, on my calendar and think, oh God, you know, like, why is that?
Tavari(29:42):
And am I, am I truly doing my best work if I feel that way about the client? Right? Mm-Hmm. And also even asking your clients, getting feedback from them. So one of my clients, as I was kind of going to full fee and letting my clients know, you know, that I was, I, I let my clients know straight out like, one, I shouldn't be subsidizing your therapy. I've had clients over the years tell me that I was worth more. But I think in this like wanting to be seen, wanting to be recognized, that we want people to appreciate us. We want somehow, we want them to just offer us more money. They, we want them to value us in ways that we don't value ourselves. Why would they, why would they offer you more money? Why would they value you more when you've set your si set your prices at bargain basement discounts.
Tavari(30:27):
(02:07):
If I could get a designer bag at a bargain basement discount, I'm not gonna gonna just voluntarily give them the extra thousand dollars. I'm gonna give them what it is that they want. So I would, I would say for, you know, to take that time to, in a meditative mindful space, to step back and think, if I had the time, if I had the energy, if I had an abundance of funds, how would I be a, how would I be different as a therapist? 'cause Even if I had an, an endless amount of money, I would still do therapy. I really would. But it would look very different than it looks when I'm having to grind to do it.
Tiffany(31:04):
Folks, I told you, I told you you were gonna get some wi wisdom. You were gonna get some gems from Tari. I love this question. I've never heard it before. Now I'm gonna start repeating it. Whenever people are like, I do great work at 35, what would you be doing differently? How would you be showing up differently? How would, what would you be doing with this client in session and between sessions if you had much more time? What a beautiful question opening. It's an opening question because every single person listening has an answer to that. If they were only seeing 10 people, well, how could they be showing up for those 10 people differently than they're showing up for the 35 people? You, you have an answer to that folks listening. Ooh, right in by the way. Right in. Send us an Instagram message g us tell us how you think about that, what your answer to that question is. I think that's beautiful. Lemme ask you this. How is your life different as you're starting to do this work with your daughter, your day to day, how you're showing up in like, real tangible specifics. What feels different for you? What's happening differently for you?
Tavari(32:09):
It it's the space and it's the space to pour into myself. It's the space for exercise. It's the space for meditation. It's the space to one of my girlfriend's, mothers used to call it easing into the day that I'm not, you know, jumping out of bed and, and going straight to work. That I'm, I spend the first hour of the day drinking coffee and looking for deer or bunny rabbits in my backyard. And, and what that does, how that allows me to feed my spirit, how that allows my heart to open looking for creating space for journaling to think, to even think about like, what is it that my clients need from me today? What is it that my household needs from me today? And how am I gonna balance those things? It has offered me, you know, like space. But then al also opportunity, opportunities to read and to find more inspiration and to think about my clients differently.
Tavari(33:04):
Opportunities to prioritize listening to a podcast that, that pours into me. So then I can then pour into my client to pour into my daughter opportunities to think about my daughter in different ways. Like, okay, these things are working, what else should we do? What else can we try? What might be fun? What what can we enjoy today? Do I, do I, am I too tired to sit on the floor and play Barbies with her? Or am I gonna make intentional time, space and energy to sit with this child and play Barbies for 30 minutes? Or am I, do I need to cook? Do I need to clean the kitchen? Am I exhausted? Am I thinking about clients? No, I'm squarely focused on her. I'm squarely focused on my partner. I'm squarely focused on me without distraction. That's what it's done. And, and you know, you alluded to this too, like even being able to do research on your clients to be curious about your clients, to, to carve out space, to just think about them, to process them, to think about what is it they might want, need or desire that they haven't asked for.
Tavari(34:10):
What is it that they might want, need or desire that they haven't found voice for? And how can I give voice to that thing you running from client to client? You don't have space for that. You, you're, if, if you think you are, you're kidding yourself. I'm gonna tell you. You don't, you don't, you don't,
Tiffany(34:25):
You don't. And we know you don't because the questions Ari just asked, the types of experiences she's describing right now. I mean, you're not, you are not having those experiences. You are not looking at the deer and the bunny hopping around in your backyard. If you're seeing 35 plants a week,
Tavari(34:40):
We have named and renamed the rabbits. I just want you guys to know that we have peanut butter buttercup.
Tiffany(34:47):
Those folks are not naming the rabbits in their backyard If they're seeing 35 people a
Tavari(34:53):
Week. And Tiffany, that's what I want to do. I want to sit and name the rabbits. That's what life is about.
Tiffany(35:11):
Not
Tavari(35:11):
Freedom. That is slavery.
(02:28):
Tiffany(35:13):
That's right. You're, you're chuckling, but you're absolutely, this is serious. This is right. Yeah.
Tavari(35:20):
No, I'm, I'm chuckling because I actually have a pimp analogy that I'm trying to save, but Yeah. But the insurance companies that are pimping us, yeah, they're getting their cut first. That's
Tiffany(35:30):
Right.
Tavari(35:30):
And then we get whatever they decide we're worth. You know, we have to set our worth. We have to decide where our value is and tell people what that value is and they will come. And some of them will come because you are so bold to say what your value is, and they want some of your magic. They wanna figure out how can, how and why are you so confident in yourself? I need that in my life. Yeah. That's why they'll come. That's right. But we have to demonstrate it. We have to model it. But you know, we all learned in school, we can't take pay people to places that we're not willing to go. But if you're not willing to grow, if you're not willing to challenge yourself, if you're not willing to sit in your own fear and discomfort, then how could you possibly be getting your clients to do it? I'm not, I'm not convinced it's you could, you could try to sell me on it. I'm just not convinced. 'cause You, you, they, they're not gonna be able to go. They, they need you to lead. And so to be a good leader, you have to demonstrate it.
Tiffany(36:34):
But I've been asking therapists a little bit more often on these podcasts about their marketing. Mm-Hmm.
Tavari(37:24):
So I think it's, it's, it's about being authentic, right? And being genuine. I always give it this compared to the music industry. So if you have a Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Jay-Z and you say, well, these 10 artists rap like Jay-Z why would I buy their album when I could get the original, when I could buy Jay-Z's? So I, I think sometimes we get, we get caught up in the formula, like the Hollywood formula. I'm gonna do it the way everybody else did it. I think we have to figure out like what works for us and who am I? So first and foremost, who am I and who am I targeting? You know, my focus for a long time had been health psychology, been around health issues. But then you get everybody, everyone comes in because you are authentic. So I think first and foremost, being authentic.
Tavari(38:09):
I originally was not marketing myself prior to coming into li I, I, I made little effort to market because I, all my clients were coming in word of mouth. I was either, I do a lot of corporate training. So I, I meet individuals that way. People connect with me in a way that feels genuine to them. Doing a podcast like this, people feel like, oh, I get her energy, I get her spirit. I wanna talk to her. So I had not explicitly gone out and, and marketed. But I think one of those, one of those key things is putting you that you are the number one tool. It's not C-B-T-R-E-B-T-D-B-T, like you are the number one tool in therapy. So that's the thing that, that you need, you have to put out there is this is what you're gonna get. This is what you can expect.
Tavari(38:52):
And speaking directly to your clients. And, and we talk about that a lot in limb like that you're not making these kind of vague in general, oh, I, I cope with, I work with anxiety or depression. Well, every therapist works with anxiety and depression 'cause that's literally what comes through our door, right? But to be very specific in your marketing and know that you're still gonna cut, it's like a, a net that you're putting in the ocean you might be looking for for salmon, but you're gonna pull up trout, you're gonna pull up redfish. And so that's, again, that's, that's my a abundance mindset that as long as I'm going out there and marketing myself and demonstrating this is who I am, this is what I have to offer, I'm gonna pull all kinds of things in, then it's up to my discernment to say, that's a boot. Let me throw that, let me throw that boot back in the ocean. That's not for me. You know?
Tiffany(39:40):
Yeah. Okay. I think you've already given, I have a question around just pieces of strategic advice. You've already given so much advice, you've given so much wisdom, and I'm still gonna ask you this question. We have, you know, mod, we have Alicia, they're out there listening to this, seeing 30 clients a week right now on insurance panels. And they're, and they, you broke through to them. They're like, okay, wait a minute. I know that I'm not doing my best work, but I'm terrified. I got a family to support. Maybe I'm a single mom, maybe I'm the primary breadwinner. Maybe I'm in a rural area. I, I I don't know if this is gonna work for me. What would you say, what are one to three things you would say either strategic advice or mindset for that person listening right now?
Tavari(40:24):
Yeah. I think the first thing is, if you don't think it's gonna work, you're right. It's not like you're, you're, you are in the way. You are the first hurdle. So first and foremost to the understanding that the, the only limitation is really you. And to allow yourself the space to expand, the space to grow, you are not going to be able to see everyone. This is like speed dating. Not everybody's for you. We're, we're looking for the, the right clients. And that doesn't mean that you won't, won't get to see the other ones. I think sometimes we get caught up in our humanitarian spirit, like I wanna serve these other people. When you have abundance, you can serve people. So I had a supervisee that reached a former supervisee that reached out to me for a consultation and she is going through it and I was trying to figure out like, you know what, I should really charge her my full fee.
Tavari(41:20):
(02:49):
But then I decided I've had enough full fee clients this week that, that she's going to be my give this week. But recognizing that you'll still be able to see the people that you want to serve. You'll still be able to offer whatever form of fellowship that you want to offer, but you get to choose where it is. You don't have a third party, an insurance company deciding that you need to give. And you don't have a client that's telling you that you have to give to them. You decide that what you wanna give. I think that other piece of what I've been saying is that is more of an abundance mindset is just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you live in a rural area doesn't mean there aren't people who are driving Subarus and living in a little house that want to spend money just 'cause you don't see the ACC on that.
Tavari(42:07):
They want to spend money on their wellness and their wellbeing. Matter of fact, that's come to find out that's where all their investment goes into their wellbeing. But they're not flashy 'cause they're not giving their money away. They want to work with someone who wants to work, who wants to not just phone it in. Maybe they've had experiences with other therapists where was, so how are you doing? And what's going on? Great. You seem to be fine. You know? So I think even advertising what it is that you do and, and what it is that you have to offer and how you see behavior change working and how, how, how, what are your, what's your process? And people will connect with that. And then that last piece is what we, what we were saying earlier is nobody else is gonna do it for you. So
Tiffany(42:53):
If
Tavari(42:53):
You don't do it, you're right. It's not gonna happen. It'll never happen if you don't get up, put on your big girl panties and make it happen. That's the only way that it happens. But we have plenty of evidence of individuals who are out there charging 200, 2 50, 2 75, 3 75 and they're able to get that with those payments. But I think the other interesting thing is when you're seeing 35 clients, like if you just cut that in half, if you doubled the, the fee for 15 clients, you'll be making your money. So of those people that you're seeing, how many of them were, are willing to stay with you and convert? And then how many other people are out there that you just haven't met yet? 'cause You've been swimming in the cesspool of insurance.
Tiffany(43:38):
The cesspool,
Tavari(43:40):
The cesspool.
Tiffany(43:43):
We've already done so much deep diving. We touched on this before deep. Also, folks, please be taking notes. If you are not taking notes, go back and listen to this again. Write down what Ari is saying or just better yet, give her a call. I wanna come back to this night in shining armor thing. This knight in shining armor mentality. I wanna show up and be the talent. And look, I think there will be a time in your life if you want this, that you can show up and be the talent because you've set yourself up, you've done the order of operations in order to have a team around you that's allowing you to just show up and do the work that is possible. Takes it, takes strategy. I think you can absolutely do that in time. That being said, this knight and shining army mentality, can you talk to us a little bit about where it come, where it comes from? You, you growing up, you coming up in the world what were some of the contributing factors to wanting to just have, have it taken care of for you?
Tavari(44:40):
Yeah, that it was never that. It was never done that I've always worked. I had my first babysitting job when I was 10. I had my first W2 job when I was 13. I lied and said I was fir 15 and then actually filed taxes that year. But, you know, that was back in the day when you could get away with, with such matters
Tavari(45:21):
So that was wise on her part. We were 16, she was 32. She was young enough to understand what was gonna happen if I had an apartment. And then, I mean, just so honest. I've done everything by myself and I am deserving of love. I I know this, I am deserving of care, but it just doesn't come that way. I have to do the work to get what it is that I need. I have to mother myself. I have to nurture myself. I've always had to. Is it fair? No. And, but we know that life isn't fair and it continues to not be fair. Tiffany. Those are the cards that I was dealt. Whether or not I should have been dealt them, we could have a whole analytic conversation about that. But what I do know is this is my reality. And so I have to play with the cards that are in front of me.
Tavari(46:11):
I have to play in my reality. And my reality is no one's coming. It's up to me. And the beauty of it is no one's coming. It's up to me. I can do it all. I can do it all. I'm in control. I'm in charge. I don't have to wait for somebody else to say yes. I don't have to ask anybody's permission. I can just get out there and do what it is that I want to do with my existence, with my business, with my own therapeutic work. It's up to me. And that's liberating. That's, that is actual freedom.
Tiffany(46:45):
That's right. Ari. People want to talk to you. People want to call you. How can they do it? Yeah. How, where, where can people find you?
(03:10):
Tavari(46:54):
So you could always DM me at doctor underscore therapy underscore Ari. So Dr. Actually, I'm sorry, Dr. Ari therapy on ig. And then I have a phone number. Eight five five eight eight two four three two five four three two five.
Tiffany(47:16):
Okay, we'll make sure to include that in the show notes. Dr. I wasn't calling you Dr this whole time, Dr. Ari. That's
Tavari(47:24):
Okay. We're, we're, we're, we're peers, we're colleagues.
Tiffany(47:26):
No, ma'am. If someone has a doctor before their name, I like to whip it out. I that every chance
Tavari(47:31):
That, no, I have a couple of clients every now and then they'll try to call me Tavari and I kind of cringe,
Tiffany(47:36):
Doctor, when I do this intro, I'll make sure to get that right. Beautiful. Awesome. So on Instagram, we'll put that in. Or people can just call you directly. Folks listening. If you have been inspired by what you've heard, I certainly have. This is why we're, you know, again, we're slowly bringing current students on our show, but I'm like, we gotta get tamari. We gotta get tamari on our show. If you are inspired, challenged, uncomfortable, if you feel like I want a little bit of that, but I don't know if it's possible for me, I encourage you to give Dr. Brown a call. Set up an appointment, see what it feels like to pay two 50 per session to sit across from somebody who has gone on the journey that you're trying to go on minimum two 50 to see what is she doing, how is she's thinking? What would it look like for me to walk in those shoes? I highly encourage you to give her a call. Dr. Avari, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you,
Tavari(48:32):
Tiffany. It's been an honor and a privilege and I love the limb community. Just such, so many powerful beings in there.
Tiffany(48:38):
Thank you.
Outro(48:44):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to your woman, well, I mean that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to Right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.