November 25, 2024 • 56 mins
Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free
In this episode, we’re speaking with Marissa Esquibel, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based in California.
When Marissa joined LIMB in 2020, she was underpaid and overworked at her Community Mental Health job.
When she joined us for her first episode of The Money Sessions in 2021, she had successfully built a premium fee private practice charging $350/session in less than 12 months — during a global pandemic.
And if you think that’s impressive, just wait until you hear about the marketing strategy she’s used to raise her fee to as high as $500/session.
Whether you’re still dreaming of opening your own private practice or already confidently charging premium fees, you won’t want to miss this eye-opening episode.
In this episode, Marissa shares:
How she went from working three jobs to confidently charging up to $500 per session;
How she persisted in the face of rejection after rejection when raising her fees;
The marketing strategies and tactics she tried and what she ultimately landed on;
How she created therapy packages that allow clients to pay up front for up to 12 weeks of work with her;
How being intentional about building the skills and taking the steps needed to bring her life vision into fruition has allowed her to show up differently as a mother;
The biggest mindset shift that allowed Marissa to go from a life of overwhelm and being thrown off by external circumstances to a life where she can confidently and successfully navigate anything that comes her way.
Resources mentioned:
The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast
The Codependummy Podcast, hosted by Marissa
More about Marissa:
Marissa Esquibel is an LMFT, podcaster, and coach based in California. Her specialty is working with codependents—patients, coaching clients, and listeners alike—and she's on a mission to empower young women to stop playing small and start taking up space!
Learn more at therapywithmarissa.com or visit Marissa on Instagram @therapywithmarissa
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Tiffany(00:01):
(00:01):
What does it take to go from working in community mental health while also working for a group practice while also teaching literally breaking your back, having chronic back pain as a result of working oneself to the bone. Coming from a lineage of folks who are coined frugal McDougal, because the belief is you work very hard, you struggle, you do everything yourself, and you don't have very much to show for it. What does it take to go from that mentality to confidently charging $500 per session full, having clients knocking down your door and breaking an intergenerational cycle and story of scarcity, money, scrimping and saving? I'll tell you what it takes in this episode today. Welcome folks. This is The Money Sessions. I am your host, Tiffany McLain creator of the company. Lean In Make Bank, founder of the Lean In Make Bank Academy, where we help therapists with exactly this.
Tiffany(01:13):
We help therapists understand how their money stories, their unconscious process is impacting their ability to actually be charging the fees you all need to be charging in order to truly step up and take care of yourself in the world, and to truly step up and do ethical, transformational clinical work. In this episode today, we're having Marissa Esquibel back on our show. We had Marissa on our show back in 2021 April, and she talked about what it was like to go from community mental health, working in a group practice teaching that's three jobs, folks to confidently going into private practice, choosing not to go in the insurance route. And not only that, but choosing to go right into cash pay, premium fees. Definitely go listen to that episode. We'll link here in the show notes. Check that one out. Now we're revisiting Marissa. Four years later.
Tiffany(02:08):
Three years later she's a new mom. She's continuing to charge premium fees. She has a phenomenal podcast and she's going to be talking to us about how her thinking has continued to develop around what it means to charge premium fees, what it means to set a schedule that has actually worked for her, how it's shifted her entire life and shifted the next generation that's gonna come after her. She's gonna talk about what she did specifically to market her practice such that she's always full the way she thought out of the box, the way she actually found what worked for her when charging premium fees. But here's the thing, folks. She didn't start by having a full practice, overwhelmed, burnt out, and then say, okay, let me actually try to get new clients, or, you know, raise my fees to 300 for all new coming people while continuing to see folks at $80 per session or being filled with insurance.
Tiffany(03:02):
You'll hear that her order of operations was to get crystal clear just like we taught she was a Lim student actually back in 20 19, 20 20. How to get crystal clear about what you want in life, folks, my love, and then do what you must to reach that life without compromise, without settling, but actually learning who and how do I have to be in the world in order to charge 180 2 25, 300, 400, $500 per session? We're gonna talk about all that and more. This is going to be an episode that is going to rock your socks off. really inspire you and challenge you. Challenge the stories you tell yourself about what you're capable of, what your business, your practice is capable of. If you have been listening to the money sessions and you are wanting to explore, what would it take for me to have a premium fee practice?
Tiffany(04:01):
What would it take for me to actually have a life that allows me to show up fully, both in my personal life but also in my clinical work? I encourage you to go to lean in make bank.com/free. Download our free fun with fee calculator, and we'll walk you through exactly how to set your fees. All you gotta do is paint the vision. All you gotta do is let yourself dream about what you need to show up fully, and we'll tell you what your fee needs to be in order to make that happen. Let's dive in with Marissa and hear a real story of just utter transformation, and I highly encourage you, if you haven't listened to her first episode, search through just Google, Marissa, the Money Sessions 2021, and go back and listen to that other episode after this one and prepare yourself to be blown away by her journey. Let's dive in.
Intro (04:59):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people.
You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself.
This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, I wouldn't do what she's doing. Like she's doing this.
Tiffany(05:41):
Okay folks, we are here with Marissa. Marissa Esquibel. You could hear her old episode. I'm already reeling folks. So folks who are listening, Marissa and I were already just talking before the show and I'm like, you have to stop. We want this on the show. I think I say that every time. So I've known Marissa for a long time, so I'm also trying to recalibrate. I'm not like getting to know Marissa on this call. I'm knowing all the, all of these things. So we're gonna do our best folks to do a quick recap of life in our rapid fire section, and then we're gonna come, we're gonna talk about in our rapid fire section, what we covered back in April, 2021, where we talk about when Marissa was in community mental health and went into her own premium fee private practice. So we're gonna recap that quickly, and then we're gonna talk about the evolution over time. It's been three years since then. What is it like to be a fully established premium fee provider and how do we make decisions now? How do you think about your time and money now? This is what we're gonna talk about. Sound good Versa?
Marissa(06:43):
Sounds good.
Tiffany(06:44):
Okay. So just briefly, for those who didn't hear your podcast, way back in the day, back in 2019, you were working in community mental health, you were working for group practice as well and teaching, and you had some inkling you wanted to go into private practice. Can you tell us a little bit about both what made you wanna go into private practice and also some of the key decisions you made at that time when you went into private practice?
Marissa(07:09):
I attended the modern conference, I think it was the fall of 2019. No, it was the fall of 2018.
(00:22):
Tiffany(07:22):
2018.
Marissa(07:23):
I can't remember. I think it was 2019 because I, I think I was at the group practice. I, I had attempted to leave community mental health because my, you know, it was, I say backbreaking, bone shattering work and, but I was really good at it because I'm codependent and shined there. And so they kept me on for assessments, 'cause assessments. That was a strength of mine. So yeah, so I am doing assessments for the community mental health group home I was at, I am working at a group practice seeing eight patients ish a day because going from 60 to 70 hours a week in community mental health to 40 hours a week. What a vacation. And then I was teaching, I was teaching at my graduate school, Cal State Fullerton. Oh my god, my I poor nervous system. So I went to the conference you presented, and also another, I mean, a lot of cool therapists presented.
Marissa(08:30):
And I had started listening to that podcast, the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I remember I took my licensing exam, I passed, and I love this field and I loved studying. I thought it made me a better therapist, the work that I was doing. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about this family systems intervention. Let me use this this week. So there was this vacuum of space to fill. So I just started listening to all these podcasts and, you know, went to the conference. You were the keynote for lunch ish, and I was so impressed. And yeah, I felt like you, and all the workshops I attended, everyone was saying, you can do this. Like, not like you can get up there and present, but you, you can start your own private practice. You can't look at these cool young, modern therapists just like creating the practice of their dreams.
Marissa(09:42):
You don't have to go to, you know, some big hospital, some, I don't know, just like these, my dad, he worked he's A-L-C-S-W and he worked for like a huge hospital system his whole life. And yeah, he was like, don't work here, don't do it. Right. But yeah, I thought I had to pay my dues and then like settle into private practice when I was 60, which was the model. So yeah, I just felt like I walked away from that conference and the message was, you can do this. And then I signed up for your course at the beginning of 2020. And yeah, I think, I don't know, things happen fast. My poor nervous system, but it's like, I took the course, I told all my patients I was leaving. I rented a brick and mortar office in downtown Claremont, started my practice March 1st, closed the doors March 17th because of covid, and built my virtual practice since then.
Tiffany(10:45):
Holy mackerel. I remember, I don't know why this sticks in my head. The, the podcast where you said, so for folks who don't know, back in 2020, I taught limb in five weeks. And so you really said like, okay folks, I have five weeks. I have five weeks to do all of this. And you really did do all of those things very in very rapid succession and establish yourself, open your doors. And I think your fee was 180 when you first opened your doors. Do you remember?
Marissa(11:10):
Yes. So at the group practice, I was charging a hundred. This is like in, you know, late 2019, I remember, I think I went up to 1 25 for a new year. January 1st, I had two patients paying that fee and like, who knows how many others on insurance. And then when I told everyone I was leaving, I said, I'm not gonna take insurance. I'm gonna advertise at 180. If you follow me, I'll start you at one 50 per session. And like five of my patients, including the two who were already paying 1 25, they were like, okay, I will come. Hmm. And one of 'em, her copay was $0. So she went from paying $0 to $600 a month. And she figured it out.
Tiffany(12:06):
She figured it out.
Marissa(12:07):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany(12:09):
Okay. So you did that, it was a pandemic, and then pretty quickly you went up to, what's your fee now? Well actually pre, pre, you have a kid now, so things have changed, but pre going on mat leave, what were your fees at that time and and what was your work like, your schedule like?
Marissa(12:25):
Yeah, so I was at 180, this is like spring of 2020. And within nine months I was so successful. It was, I was, there was a deluge of inquiries and so I was still in contact, right? Because I did Lim and then I stayed on as a mentor. You were a mentor? Yep. Yes. And so I think continuing in the environment, I, my motivation, the fire just got bigger and bigger. And so, because I just kept, it was like 180, like boom, boom, boom, boom, okay, 2 25, boom, boom, boom, boom, 300, 3 50, 4 50. I mean, it was still going. It wasn't, you know, like it slowed down and I was like, okay, 500, 500, I'm done. can't do this anymore. And so, yeah, so I got up to 500 and then, yeah, coming back from maternity leave, I have booked a couple new people. But yeah, I know that like the fuller I've gotten, the more confident I am. And when I need, when I have a couple more spots, I'm like, okay, let me 400 and so yeah, I would say between four and five, but lately it's like four.
Tiffany(14:07):
(00:43):
Can I just stop? Yeah,
Marissa(14:08):
Go ahead. Wait,
Tiffany(14:09):
Hold on. What the? I knew this, but I had forgotten. I had forgotten. So, so it
Marissa(14:13):
Was, it was crazy. And packages, I started doing packages you need to book. You, let's do, let's do a month, let's do four sessions for, gosh, what? 18? 1800. Oh. And then I would give them a little bit of a discount if they wanted to book for 12 sessions. The fee would kind of like, they would get like 10% off the package. It just,
Tiffany(14:39):
Are you saying they pay, they pay that upfront for the package, or they agreed to, she's nodding her head folks, if you're listening to the podcast, so people would pay you up for 1800 or eight one month, two months ahead of time. Just, just holding back.
Marissa(14:52):
The most I did was 12, I think it was a 12 session, so three months. So yeah, maybe it was like 15% off for that one, 10% off for two months, and then just the full fee, like four 50 for, for four weeks.
Tiffany(15:09):
So there are people listening now, Marissa, who are like, what? It was so easy you didn't have to do anything. Wait, you just said it wasn't okay, can you, it wasn't, can you talk to folks about what was difficult about the process?
Marissa(15:26):
Starting, starting was difficult.
Tiffany(15:29):
What? Tell us what Yeah,
Marissa(15:31):
I, well, I had mentors, thankfully I did know a couple people in private practice who like newly, so like the zero to five year in private practice colleagues and then the like 45 to 50 years in the game. And thankfully everybody told me, if you don't have to take insurance, don't. And then Covid started and I remember, yeah, like, you know, I had this like measly like handful and maybe I added a couple. I remember that too. Yeah. I was like, 180 to this person. Sure. 180 to that person. Okay. I'm like, what is happening? And then yeah, people wanted in person. I actually thought that my patients would discount phone or like video sessions. Like they're not just somehow I like equated being in person as more valuable. Mm-Hmm. Which some people do, but yeah, like they kept coming. But really like it, I remember someone texted me to book a session and I, I shared my fee, which maybe like, it was like 180, but it was a couple. So I was like two 20. And he said that that fee is cost prohibitive. I was like, oh,
Tiffany(16:54):
What, what, what, what did it feel like when you, when you, when you got this text back that that fee, your fee you gave us is cost prohibitive? What happened inside of you?
(01:04):
Marissa(17:04):
I am doomed. It is cost prohibitive. Like maybe I found the, like seven people on the planet who will, who will meet with me, but beyond that, this is not going to work. I remember during a consultation call, someone hung up when I'd said my fee
Tiffany(17:28):
.
Marissa(17:29):
I was like, oh, see, but Right. I remember this, but I also do remember the successes, but Right. It was daunting and yeah, I think I called him back like, Hey, did we lose our connection? He was gone. So, and yeah, at that time I was scrambling and so yeah, it was harder. It was hard to get started. And then I, I also remember having like multiple nos, right? So maybe like four or five consultation calls. That's, I, I do take time with my consultation. So I would say like 20 to 30 minutes. I know some people do like 15 minutes, some people do an hour, but yeah, that's my sweet spot. And you know, one, oh no, I can't, two, it's too much. Three, I don't know, I'm gonna go with my insurance. Four, five, that's a lot. And then at the same time, that sixth person, I would say 300 they'd say. Okay. And that would almost, yeah, I mean obviously the, the scale was balanced because I was like, ah, I can do this. But it was, yeah, I would say starting and keeping the faith Yeah. Was, and yeah, I would say those are the two. Starting and keeping the faith is hard
Tiffany(19:05):
When you got the one, no two, no three. No, we have, I hear from therapists, we have therapists in limb even now who say they get even one rejection, but let much less two or three or four. And they say, I need to go back. I need to lower my fee. Nobody, clearly I'm getting a sign that people can't pay this. What were your voices when you got the No, no, no, no. Five in a row. What, what would you tell yourself or what would the internal Marissa, the committee members be saying to you in those moments?
Marissa(19:36):
I'm not like fully conscious of what it was, but I think it was like, how can we improve the systems? How can I articulate my value? And I do, so I do teach a, a consultation class. Consultation call. Hmm. Right. Because you can do all the marketing, you can have all the education and training and experience as a therapist. And sometimes for me, right? Having my own private practice, it's just me. I, you know, maybe I'll hire people, maybe I'll supervise. But right now I'm pretty content seeing patients. And so I am, that call is the last step. And I did dive heavily into like marketing calls and cold calls. I don't do marketing calls, I don't do discovery, I don't do cold calls. But just trying to learn from other industries, their approach to articulating the value of their service. And so, yeah, I think I just, I tried to find other ways to approach sharing the value of my service, which I do fundamentally believe is life changing.
Marissa(21:10):
Hmm. Right. I think too, like the work that I do, obviously, like really committing to that and like, just having like a felt sense. Like, like that was a really good session and so thankfully these patients are gonna keep coming back. And then, yeah, just really sensing like, like this, this is unique. Like this is valuable. So I need to work on, everybody can go through their insurance. Everybody. Actually, I don't know. I actually, I have Kaiser and I, like, I don't qualify. I'm too high functioning even to go through, but a lot of people they could, but everyone can go to community college. Mm-Hmm. And people go to these private Ivy League schools. There's, there's, you know, at least the first two years it's pretty much the same. At least like the coursework is the same, and yet people wanna go to these, these schools. So just trying to articulate my value and what I can offer Yeah. To, to help someone discern. Okay. Yeah. Like I will, I will invest in, in this,
Tiffany(22:33):
I wanna talk with you a little bit about what you did to even be getting those phone calls. You've done a lot of work to be forward facing, attract the people who are right fit for you. We talk about that even back in 2021. Mm-Hmm.. But before we get there, I want to hear your thoughts around, or even have a discussion around what the order of operations. So when you're talking about the level of work you had to do to understand how to communicate the value of what you do or what you do when people call, such that you can book two or three or four or $500 sessions by that time you'd already committed, I'm going to be having premium fee, a premium fee practice. I need to have a certain amount of money. I'm not taking insurance, I'm not working 40 hours a week.
Tiffany(23:23):
That all came before you did anything with marketing or made any decisions around marketing. You had to start with a clear vision of what kind of practice you wanted In your experience when talking to therapists who are taking insurance or even, you maybe have colleagues, you've been around, you mentored in our community, you've been around a while. When people are on insurance or they're having sliding scales and seeing 20 or 30 people a week or 40, you know, clients on their caseload and charging all over the place and they say, I need to market first and get all my referrals, and then I'll raise my fee. I try to tell 'em that's backwards. But you have someone who actually did it in the opposite direction. Can you talk a little bit about why you did it the way you did and the benefits to that versus, I'm gonna take insurance and then keep taking insurance and once I get a steady stream of people at 400, then I'll get off. Why doesn't that work?
Marissa(24:14):
Good question. Why doesn't that work? Or Yeah, why was I willing to, yeah,
Tiffany(24:19):
Why were you willing to, you didn't say like, lemme get on insurance and then learn the marketing thing. You did it the other way and you failed for a long time.
Marissa(24:28):
(01:25):
Mm-Hmm., I think I sensed that I can, I mean, I am fortunate I didn't start at zero. Maybe some people are starting at zero or Yeah, if you are taking insurance, maybe you can announce to your 40 patients. I'm no longer gonna be taking insurance as of this date. Let me know if you wanna continue. That's what I said. So I did have this like teeny, yeah. This little nist. So thankfully I had this nest and I had met with a therapist who, yeah, he was young, he was a cool modern therapist. And he said something along the lines of, when I started my practice, I committed to working 40 hours a week, even if I only had five patients. Hmm. And so I sense that with the time outside of seeing a bunch of people with for insurance, I really, I was able to commit to learning about marketing sale or consultation calls, or I was gonna say sales calls, not sales calls, but I learned from sales calls Mm-Hmm. , how to better conduct consultation calls, networking, social media, podcasting. Right. I, yeah, I've definitely experimented with a lot of things. And so, yeah, even though I had this teeny tiny practice, I wasn't working those five or six hours, maybe seven, like doing notes and like case planning. I, I, I would fill my workday, quote unquote, but it was a workday with Lim and with other content related to building my practice. And so thus with that time spent fully focused on building Mm-Hmm. I sense, I sense that's how it came about.
Tiffany(26:44):
This is very helpful. Thank you for articulating that. Even when you're laying it out, it's like we could have someone who's seeing 30 clients a week on insurance. Well, even stepping back further than that, the reality is we have only, we have a limited amount of time and psychic or emotional bandwidth, energetic bandwidth, it's, we have a cap. And so if 30 or 35 hours of that is going to, seeing folks on insurance or sliding scale even 20 hours, there's very little, little time. And also likely very little emotional or psychic bandwidth to go out and figure out not only how to find 300 or $400 clients, how to find them, but also how to talk to them in a way that demonstrates your value. Like learning those skills. Mm-Hmm. Having the energy to show up for them because you're exhausted. So one could either see 30 clients or even 20 a week and then have two hours to try to figure out the marketing stuff. Or they can go the route you chose, which is maybe I'm only gonna see five people and like make the money I make from that. But I'm gonna spend the other 35 hours of my week learning the tools to play the long game because I know ultimately where I want to go. Right. And if I'm gonna get there, I need the time and the bandwidth to learn who and how I need to show up to be able to have that life. That's what I hear you saying. Mm-Hmm..
Marissa(28:01):
Yeah.
Tiffany(28:02):
Okay. Phenomenal. So how did you, what was the best way you found to market? So you did that? So first folks listening, let's be clear. Marissa wasn't seeing 30 people a week and stressed out. She was spending time to figure out how to market, what was the most,
Marissa(28:15):
Figuring out how to market.
Tiffany(28:17):
What was the most what was the best results you got with marketing? What worked the best?
Marissa(28:23):
Well, we'll just do a list of what I did. So for marketing, I, I remember I went around the nearby college community and I hung up flyers. I, I think I left business cards at business card places like coffee shops and those places where yeah, there's just piles of business cards around. I updated my Psychology Today profile and other profiles.
Tiffany(28:54):
Did you take a classroom to learn that?
Marissa(28:56):
To, to I did. I signed up for a, a year long marketing course. I think after I finished Lim.
Tiffany(29:05):
Okay.
Marissa(29:06):
It's not by therapist. And I wish it had been, which is, I'm glad that I did li and had therapist as the instructor because the marketing course was very helpful. 'cause They knew marketing, but they didn't know the field. Which there are programs that have both, which I would suggest. Great.
(01:46):
Tiffany(29:29):
Thank you.
Marissa(29:30):
So profiles I posted on social media. I posted ads in the local paper. I gave workshops on mental health for free. Hmm. Where I, like online at like Wellness Wednesdays for the local universities. I presented at a, a mortgage lending office. I had younger coming out, we're stressed out 'cause the real estate industry was going crazy and their office was doing very well. But yeah, they were stressed. Smart. I interviewed on podcasts. I started my own podcast. I went to virtual and in-person networking events, and then connected with people. So tried to have virtual or in-person coffees. And I, I sent my business cards to doctors' offices.
Tiffany(30:28):
Just mailed them straight up or gave them some kind of note
Marissa(30:32):
Straight up and like, said like, hi, like this is me and this is what I specialized a mentor told me to do that. And, you know, I, I don't know. So there's, I mean, there's an array of options even beyond that. And I don't know how I was able to figure this out, but I started to discern what felt aligned and what didn't. Hmm. So I remember I did, I challenged myself. I did a TikTok Tober where I posted every day on TikTok. I think it was in 2020, it might've been 21. And by the end of it, I was exhausted. I hated TikTok and Tiffany. Some people are crushing on TikTok. They're doing amazingly well. And I think for a time and like for baby therapists out there, like, yeah. Just because like, you see and hear someone, I remember I heard someone at that same conference you presented at, I went the next year virtually 'cause of Covid.
Marissa(31:41):
And one of the presenters, she was so inspiring, but she talked about how, I think for a whole year, and this was pre Covid, she had a speaking engagement every day. And she spoke at like senior citizen places and like community centers and c like she, but she said, I spoke every day. And I was like, I need to do that. I need to speak every day. That is what will bring me success. Or I need to be TikTok famous. And yeah, thankfully over time I was able to discern, I don't need to speak every day. I don't need to be on TikTok. I, me, I love networking events. I love them. I love meeting 30 ish therapists, sharing my niche and then connecting with, oh, you work with couples. If one of the partners seems codependent, I'd love to work with them. Or if you work with a 50 something couple and they're struggling with their 20 something daughter, please send her my weight.
Marissa(32:47):
Which like, in like, real time happened. And also if a couple reached out to me, I would say I, I don't work with couples. I can, but I don't please call my friend Jeremy. And so, yeah, I, I love it. Some people hate the one minute-ish commercial that you give about yourself and they hate walking around schmoozing, but I don't know, it's therapists. So it's different. There's more depth. And so I loved that. And I loved the virtual coffees. I would set up with people afterwards, which I think you also encourage in li it's like if you connect with someone, you know, try and get together. And so I loved that. I loved podcasting as a platform. I, yeah. Interviewing a, just talking to so many people about my favorite topic, codependency. And I, yeah, I liked writing solo cast. I like teaching. I like translating complex psychological theory into digestible bits. And so over time, yeah. Like that is very reinforcing. So finding what worked. And then also, yeah, being able to say like, I don't wanna speak every day. I don't wanna be on TikTok and like, filtering over time. But yeah, look at the, I mean that's, it's probably not all the things I've done, but trying and failing and like, just sensing what works.
Tiffany(34:24):
I could be wrong. This could be a projection of mine. But when I hear you saying, Tiffany, look at all these things. I tried holding up your fingers, 10 things and probably more like, and that was a very extensive list of doing all the things we hear to do and more. Is there some part of you that's speaking to the therapist out there who's saying, I'm having a hard time marketing. I went to that thing once six months ago? Or is that only in my head when you're saying I did all of these things? Is it in comm communication or in a conversation about how you've heard therapists talk about marketing historically?
Marissa(34:54):
Say more.
Tiffany(34:55):
I mean, you're saying Tiffany, I did all of these things. Tell me why, why is that important to emphasize all the things you tried?
Marissa(35:03):
Yeah. I think I'm emphasizing it to say I tried all these things. I don't, I don't regret trying them. I didn't als, I didn't sustain most of them. But through trying them, I was able to figure out what works for me. Mm-Hmm.. And yeah, I think some people they just like try one thing and like stick to it or try one thing and it doesn't work. It's like, no. Like there's a variety of ways to market oneself and you really have to find, yeah. You have to find what works for you. And I think I'm saying like, don't necessarily do what I did 'cause it might not be best for you. And yeah, don't, don't worry if what someone is saying doesn't resonate. Yeah.
Tiffany(35:59):
(02:07):
I hear. Well, there's always the, the conscious conversations and the unconscious and the context in which we're having this conversation. And exactly what you said, I I think there are so many thi me go back, you said, I wanna be charging premium fees because I, I want the life I want, so I'm gonna try everything. What people tell me, I'm gonna try it. Maybe I like it, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna try it because I know where I'm gonna go. I'm gonna get there some way. So I need to find out how I'm gonna get there. Versus I wanna the other voice I wanna charge two 50. I, I, I tried networking and I went on three coffee dates. It didn't work. I guess nobody will pay me premium fees. Lemme charge one 50. You're like, I'm gonna find a way to make it work, to get to, I wanna get
Marissa(36:39):
Right.
Tiffany(36:41):
I also wanna highlight, this is beautiful thinking about what you ultimately ended up doing with marketing and for you, it works so well. And for anybody who, who likes to be out in the world and is comfortable having conversations, having conversations you are really, and for tell folks your podcast, for people who don't know,
Marissa(36:59):
It's the Codependence podcast. It's all about empowering young women to stop playing monster, taking up space.
Tiffany(37:08):
I almost like did the voice with you. And I'm like, I can't do that on a podcast. Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay. So you have this beautiful podcast where you really, it it's clear you're passionate about working with young women around codependence. You share your personal journey in a thoughtful way. You teach, you have guests. It's like this is your passion. You've made a choice to go into this very specific niche. That's number one. You then go out into the world and you find mutual fits or you find what's the word I'm looking for that I'm now gonna forget? When you have a connection where they, you don't see the same people, but you see a, what's the word I'm looking for? No, I just forgot it. But it's hand in hand. So you see p the person you see serves, they can send people to you and you can send people to them.
Tiffany(37:55):
You can collaborate together. Yes. And because you love this audience, you say like, oh, you know, you have a couple and there seems to be some codependency with this, you know, 30-year-old or 28-year-old couple. This is what I specialize in. Or you are see 50 year olds who are married and struggling, they have 20 old daughters. Look, I specialize. So it's not like you're smarty or salesy. You're just like, I'm passionate about this. Let's talk about it with your colleagues. But then it doesn't stop there. You then have an entire body of work, your podcast four years with consistency that shows you're not just going to say it at one marketing thing and then going back and doing, seeing all kind of people and doing all kind of things. You can, then those people know you're serious about what you do. They can go listen to how you think. So you have a long place to nurture. Show your expertise, show your thought leadership beyond just meeting someone one off at a party or at a networking event. I think that's brilliant. A brilliant demonstration of what it really looks like to say, I'm gonna commit to a particular audience. I'm gonna actually put my money where my mouth is and say, I'm not just charging $500 because I want to, I'm charging $500 because look at this body of work I've developed over time. Right. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna stop there.
Marissa(39:03):
Thank you.
Tiffany(39:04):
Yeah, it's really, really thoughtful. And folks, if you haven't listened to the podcast, this is one of the podcasts I actually of, of therapy in the therapist world. I don't listen to really any podcasts, but I do listen to Marissa's. Not all of them of course. And actually I don't even love the guest ones. I like your solo ones where you are actually getting up there teaching. What, what do you say it, what do you say? Why do you say it like that? I
Marissa(39:21):
Do not because everybody loves the solo cast and I'm rolling my eyes and sticking my tongue out because I hate this guest. 'cause They're with me. And I have to reflect and share and be honest and yeah, like share anecdotally about certain topics that it takes a lot of courage at times to share about them. Yeah.
Tiffany(39:50):
You do it very well and you do it in a measured way. You do it in anyways, folks, just go listen. If you wanna hear if you, if you have any codependent tendencies, which you probably do. Marissa does a really thoughtful, has really thoughtful way of just like you said, making complex issues clear and concise. Mm-Hmm.. So let's jump to your day-to-day life. Now you're a new parent. You're a new mom. So I would love to hear how you have continued to take what you have learned around having clear boundaries, setting up a practice that works for you, navigating your time. How has that impacted your post mom leading into having a kid and after how have you shaped your practice to continue to be in line with your values?
Marissa(40:34):
I went on maternity leave in January, so I took off four weeks before my due date. And I was financially planning for that. And I also, yeah, I thankfully knew of colleagues who worked until their water broke and they said, don't do that. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I hear you. I won't do that. Right. I won't let fear of financial insecurity. You know, I, I just, yeah, I wanted to nest. I wanted to rest. I did stay in touch with Tiffany and I remember I texted you 'cause I was grateful for like, the help with challenging my money stories in limb because I think once I was done with the first trimester, I told my husband, we need to hire a night nurse. We're gonna pay someone to help us at night so we can sleep as much as possible with a newborn.
(02:28):
Marissa(41:34):
And so this, this is years in the making. But yeah, we, we saved, we had a nest egg. We had invested. And so I was already looking forward to working with our nightmares. Pam, she's amazing, Pam. And so yeah. So I told my patients, I'm taking off at this date. I need to take care of myself and my baby. I took that time off, gave birth, Pam started coming. And that was an expense, but it was an investment. Right. So even that perspective and thanks to hiring Pam, not that long after I gave birth organically, I told my husband, I am I I'm, I'm ready to go back. Hmm. I miss my patients. I do, I miss them. Okay. I miss them and I want what they're up to. And you know, I think, and I, I had told my patients prior to this, I said, when I come back, I likely will be coming back biweekly.
Marissa(42:47):
Is it okay with you? And for those of you who want to that sense of weekly sessions, I'll sandwich you and we can meet early in the week, like Monday or Tuesday and then later in the week, Thursday, Friday. So you still have the frequency of weekly sessions. But I, I want to balance work with being a new mom and yeah. Coming back. That was, that was how I started. And now, yeah, I'm working biweekly. I am teaching a masterclass. I said I, I teach a consultation call masterclass a Lim grad. He hired me to work for his group practice. So that's been a nice auxiliary generating, income generating avenue. And I forget what else I was talking about, but yeah. So I'm seeing patients every other week. I did, I do have a couple more slots and so very similar to how I started, it's like okay, like three 50.
Marissa(43:56):
Okay, let's do three 50 for this call. And then we, okay. Okay. Okay. Now Marette, this is 400, 400 and I like put it on piece of paper before I have the call and yeah, just like gaining confidence and really being present, committing to the work within session reading and studying outside of session. And yeah, I was like, oh, maybe I'll start back by weekly. But it's been like three, three and a half months. And so far I really like this pace. Hmm. And I'm checking in with my patients, is this pace okay? You know, for those who are really biweekly or who are coming more often, like what is this pace? Like? And thinking I could be a biweekly therapist at infinitum. Mm-Hmm. And I remember in li there was another student who she was gonna do three weeks on, one week off. And I was like, that's not allowed.
Marissa(45:05):
That's not allowed. There's, there's a rule somewhere says you can't do that. And now here I am like, oh, I'm gonna be biweekly. Potentially. I don't know if I'll do it forever. But it has been so nice to know, okay, this week I am working, we have to, you know, work around my schedule, give help from grandparents, et cetera. And then this next week we're gonna go do this activity that I've wanted to take the baby to or we're going to meet up with this mom group that I need support and connection with. We're going to, he's gonna get a couple shots and I will be present for the rest of the day because it is likely going to be a rough one. And it's been so nice to have the space and flexibility and like overall confidence in myself that I can sustain this. Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(46:06):
So wonderful to hear. Like I'm just thinking about I'm, I'm gonna put this into a, some kind of question. The Marissa I hear now is intentionally planning ahead. I'm gonna go on maternity leave, I'm gonna take time off leading up to that. I'm gonna pay for a n nurse 'cause I really wanna make sure I'm able to show up fully and get the help I need. I'm gonna come back to biweekly sessions so I can show up for my kiddo fully. If my kid has shots today, I'm gonna be able to take the whole day to spend with them. Compare that to 2019, Marissa, which is literally not very long ago, 20 18, 20 19, who emailed me and said, I really wanna do limb, but I got some, my teeth need to be fixed. I broke 'em on a corn cob and I lost my laptop.
Tiffany(46:57):
Just like, what I hear is like overwhelmed, stressed out, has no money. Marissa's making like, cry, what was me? But look at those are real, like so many people listening are overwhelmed running outta money. They're really like living day to day. When life happens to them. They, they just are thrown off Course therapists enter limb like this often to now when you're able to plan ahead, things come up, you can manage 'em just a night and day. When you're reflecting on what had to shift in you, what were some of the biggest paradigm shifts that the Marissa can sit in in front of me now planning a way ahead of being thoughtful compared to the Marissa who everything that happened in life just threw you off. Totally. How do you think about these two versions of yourself?
Marissa(47:38):
Yeah. It it is significant. It is radical. I know for a fact that five years ago I would never have thought of hiring a night nurse. So I'd come from this lineage like my great grandparents were depression babies. My grandparents were children of depression babies. And like we'd nicknamed some of my relatives and my dad like frugal McDougal. Like, oh, there's frugal McDougal. And the sentiment is like, why pay for something if you can do it yourself? So why pay for a night nurse if you can take care of your baby at night? Why would you pay someone to do that? And trying to see the value beyond the dollar amount, which is, I I will, I'm going to be sleeping, I'm gonna be getting input and feedback and suggestions from an expert. I am going to like be able to hand off my baby to someone besides my partner when we're both completely overwhelmed.
Marissa(48:53):
I am going, I don't know, she was so like loving and supportive. Like, like she took care of the baby and she took care of me. Mm. Like, I need care too. I'm gonna get care. And so I think, yeah, a big shift was looking beyond the dollar amount to what am I investing in and what other value is there if and when I do spend money, it's just, it's not just the money. And so I'm, I'm just going here 'cause it's, this is where I'm going. So hiring a night nurse, we had my baby shower at a restaurant catered when Yeah. In my family, it's like, why would we go to a restaurant when we can toil all morning and probably the night before and not sleep well and you know, potentially be on the brink of divorce and estrangement by the time the party starts.
Marissa(49:57):
But we're gonna save. I don't even, not that much money, but like why, why would we pay? And so no, it's, I'm gonna pay for peace of mind. I'm gonna pay to show up at my party right when it starts. I'm gonna pay for cohesion and harmony and no cleanup and no setup and all this time saved as a consequence. And so yeah, I think yeah, big shift was like, like not, it's just not a cost, it's an investment. And then trying to see the value beyond the dollar amount to like, what am I getting as a consequence? And I think I did get a lot of sympathy for not having a lot of money, even though I grew up like middle class, like upper middle class still like the weird lineage and like money stuff and like being like a woman and like shifting that to, yeah. I don't want that to be part of my story is like, poor me with all of these, with life being so hard. It's just like, how can I have a safety net when life happens?
Tiffany(51:18):
That's really wonderful. I'm thinking also what a what a gift to give to your kid and potentially kids. You're shifting the story, you're shifting an entire generations of stories by choosing to do something different. Choosing to show up differently in the world.
Marissa(51:36):
(02:49):
Mm-Hmm.,
Tiffany(51:36):
What would you say to a therapist who's listening who is in the place of, I'm struggling. Maybe nobody will ever pay me these fees. I I feel like I have to be on insurance or I have to slide my scale or charge $80 per session. What would you say to them who, who's also benefiting from the, they go out and say to their friends, it's so hard and their therapist friends say, it is so hard. What would you say to them about life on the other side?
Marissa(52:02):
I spoke to a therapist this week who actually called me just with that narrative. Hmm. And she was trying to figure out, I I have a testimonial for the marketing court or a marketing course that I took. So she was calling to get my, my feedback and I told her, yeah, she was going on and on. Like, oh, I'm, I'm worried about this and it's a big cost and I'm seeing people on insurance. And she said, she said, you know, therapists on insurance like, we're getting raped. I was like, oh God, have a strong analogy. But yeah, it was a good reminder for me like, like stay the course Marissa and, and she, yeah, she, she's trying to, to find what, what, what is her next step. She's a new mom, all these things. And I, you know, I'm listening, I'm sharing how the course was for me, and I did say, I was like, and just so you know, you can totally do this. You can work the number of hours you wanna work. You can see the type of clients you wanna see. You can charge the fee that provides the lifestyle that you want. You, you can do this, you can totally do this.
Marissa(53:23):
And I really, I fundamentally believe that we are professionals. We are providing life changing experiences, right? Corrective experiences. We have a lot of power in that therapy room. And with that power a lot can happen, hopefully, hopefully in a good way. And yeah, thankfully I have been exposed to therapists who have done it, who are doing it, who continue to do it, and thus the possibility is sustained. And I don't think that that reality of it's so hard. All my colleagues were all saying, it's so hard. That's like one reality and
Tiffany(54:23):
There's another reality folks. Marissa, if people wanna learn more about you, just see what you're doing out in the world, what's the best way, way for people to find you or learn more about you?
Marissa(54:35):
My website therapy with marissa.com.
Tiffany(54:41):
Beautiful. Thank you. So
Marissa(54:42):
Podcast is there, yeah,
Tiffany(54:45):
We'll link to the website and the podcast folks, go check it out. Whether, if you have any question or interest or curiosity about codependency, even if you just wanna hear how Marissa thinks, if you are somebody who's in place of charging $80 or being on insurance, I, I, I firmly believe, and I'm sure Marissa, you're on board with this, your work around Codependence show was showing up in your clinical work and your ability to charge these premium fees has to do with your understanding, articulating and really working on getting out of codependent dynamics. So folks, go check out that podcast. Even think about how you are likely playing out codependent dynamics in your clinical work if you're doing work and you're not making enough money. Marissa, thank you so much.
Marissa(55:30):
Thank you Tiffany.
Outro (55:37):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to Your woman, Well, I Mean that's, that's, That's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to Right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Tiffany(00:01):
(00:01):
What does it take to go from working in community mental health while also working for a group practice while also teaching literally breaking your back, having chronic back pain as a result of working oneself to the bone. Coming from a lineage of folks who are coined frugal McDougal, because the belief is you work very hard, you struggle, you do everything yourself, and you don't have very much to show for it. What does it take to go from that mentality to confidently charging $500 per session full, having clients knocking down your door and breaking an intergenerational cycle and story of scarcity, money, scrimping and saving? I'll tell you what it takes in this episode today. Welcome folks. This is The Money Sessions. I am your host, Tiffany McLain creator of the company. Lean In Make Bank, founder of the Lean In Make Bank Academy, where we help therapists with exactly this.
Tiffany(01:13):
We help therapists understand how their money stories, their unconscious process is impacting their ability to actually be charging the fees you all need to be charging in order to truly step up and take care of yourself in the world, and to truly step up and do ethical, transformational clinical work. In this episode today, we're having Marissa Esquibel back on our show. We had Marissa on our show back in 2021 April, and she talked about what it was like to go from community mental health, working in a group practice teaching that's three jobs, folks to confidently going into private practice, choosing not to go in the insurance route. And not only that, but choosing to go right into cash pay, premium fees. Definitely go listen to that episode. We'll link here in the show notes. Check that one out. Now we're revisiting Marissa. Four years later.
Tiffany(02:08):
Three years later she's a new mom. She's continuing to charge premium fees. She has a phenomenal podcast and she's going to be talking to us about how her thinking has continued to develop around what it means to charge premium fees, what it means to set a schedule that has actually worked for her, how it's shifted her entire life and shifted the next generation that's gonna come after her. She's gonna talk about what she did specifically to market her practice such that she's always full the way she thought out of the box, the way she actually found what worked for her when charging premium fees. But here's the thing, folks. She didn't start by having a full practice, overwhelmed, burnt out, and then say, okay, let me actually try to get new clients, or, you know, raise my fees to 300 for all new coming people while continuing to see folks at $80 per session or being filled with insurance.
Tiffany(03:02):
You'll hear that her order of operations was to get crystal clear just like we taught she was a Lim student actually back in 20 19, 20 20. How to get crystal clear about what you want in life, folks, my love, and then do what you must to reach that life without compromise, without settling, but actually learning who and how do I have to be in the world in order to charge 180 2 25, 300, 400, $500 per session? We're gonna talk about all that and more. This is going to be an episode that is going to rock your socks off.
Tiffany(04:01):
What would it take for me to actually have a life that allows me to show up fully, both in my personal life but also in my clinical work? I encourage you to go to lean in make bank.com/free. Download our free fun with fee calculator, and we'll walk you through exactly how to set your fees. All you gotta do is paint the vision. All you gotta do is let yourself dream about what you need to show up fully, and we'll tell you what your fee needs to be in order to make that happen. Let's dive in with Marissa and hear a real story of just utter transformation, and I highly encourage you, if you haven't listened to her first episode, search through just Google, Marissa, the Money Sessions 2021, and go back and listen to that other episode after this one and prepare yourself to be blown away by her journey. Let's dive in.
Intro (04:59):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people.
You know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself.
This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, I wouldn't do what she's doing. Like she's doing this.
Tiffany(05:41):
Okay folks, we are here with Marissa. Marissa Esquibel. You could hear her old episode. I'm already reeling folks. So folks who are listening, Marissa and I were already just talking before the show and I'm like, you have to stop. We want this on the show. I think I say that every time. So I've known Marissa for a long time, so I'm also trying to recalibrate. I'm not like getting to know Marissa on this call. I'm knowing all the, all of these things. So we're gonna do our best folks to do a quick recap of life in our rapid fire section, and then we're gonna come, we're gonna talk about in our rapid fire section, what we covered back in April, 2021, where we talk about when Marissa was in community mental health and went into her own premium fee private practice. So we're gonna recap that quickly, and then we're gonna talk about the evolution over time. It's been three years since then. What is it like to be a fully established premium fee provider and how do we make decisions now? How do you think about your time and money now? This is what we're gonna talk about. Sound good Versa?
Marissa(06:43):
Sounds good.
Tiffany(06:44):
Okay. So just briefly, for those who didn't hear your podcast, way back in the day, back in 2019, you were working in community mental health, you were working for group practice as well and teaching, and you had some inkling you wanted to go into private practice. Can you tell us a little bit about both what made you wanna go into private practice and also some of the key decisions you made at that time when you went into private practice?
Marissa(07:09):
I attended the modern conference, I think it was the fall of 2019. No, it was the fall of 2018.
(00:22):
Tiffany(07:22):
2018.
Marissa(07:23):
I can't remember. I think it was 2019 because I, I think I was at the group practice. I, I had attempted to leave community mental health because my, you know, it was, I say backbreaking, bone shattering work and, but I was really good at it because I'm codependent and
Marissa(08:30):
And I had started listening to that podcast, the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I remember I took my licensing exam, I passed, and I love this field and I loved studying. I thought it made me a better therapist, the work that I was doing. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about this family systems intervention. Let me use this this week. So there was this vacuum of space to fill. So I just started listening to all these podcasts and, you know, went to the conference. You were the keynote for lunch ish, and I was so impressed. And yeah, I felt like you, and all the workshops I attended, everyone was saying, you can do this. Like, not like you can get up there and present, but you, you can start your own private practice. You can't look at these cool young, modern therapists just like creating the practice of their dreams.
Marissa(09:42):
You don't have to go to, you know, some big hospital, some, I don't know, just like these, my dad, he worked he's A-L-C-S-W and he worked for like a huge hospital system his whole life. And yeah, he was like, don't work here, don't do it. Right. But yeah, I thought I had to pay my dues and then like settle into private practice when I was 60, which was the model. So yeah, I just felt like I walked away from that conference and the message was, you can do this. And then I signed up for your course at the beginning of 2020. And yeah, I think, I don't know, things happen fast. My poor nervous system, but it's like, I took the course, I told all my patients I was leaving. I rented a brick and mortar office in downtown Claremont, started my practice March 1st, closed the doors March 17th because of covid, and built my virtual practice since then.
Tiffany(10:45):
Holy mackerel. I remember, I don't know why this sticks in my head. The, the podcast where you said, so for folks who don't know, back in 2020, I taught limb in five weeks. And so you really said like, okay folks, I have five weeks. I have five weeks to do all of this. And you really did do all of those things very in very rapid succession and establish yourself, open your doors. And I think your fee was 180 when you first opened your doors. Do you remember?
Marissa(11:10):
Yes. So at the group practice, I was charging a hundred. This is like in, you know, late 2019, I remember, I think I went up to 1 25 for a new year. January 1st, I had two patients paying that fee and like, who knows how many others on insurance. And then when I told everyone I was leaving, I said, I'm not gonna take insurance. I'm gonna advertise at 180. If you follow me, I'll start you at one 50 per session. And like five of my patients, including the two who were already paying 1 25, they were like, okay, I will come. Hmm. And one of 'em, her copay was $0. So she went from paying $0 to $600 a month. And she figured it out.
Tiffany(12:06):
She figured it out.
Marissa(12:07):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany(12:09):
Okay. So you did that, it was a pandemic, and then pretty quickly you went up to, what's your fee now? Well actually pre, pre, you have a kid now, so things have changed, but pre going on mat leave, what were your fees at that time and and what was your work like, your schedule like?
Marissa(12:25):
Yeah, so I was at 180, this is like spring of 2020. And within nine months I was so successful. It was, I was, there was a deluge of inquiries and so I was still in contact, right? Because I did Lim and then I stayed on as a mentor. You were a mentor? Yep. Yes. And so I think continuing in the environment, I, my motivation, the fire just got bigger and bigger. And so, because I just kept, it was like 180, like boom, boom, boom, boom, okay, 2 25, boom, boom, boom, boom, 300, 3 50, 4 50. I mean, it was still going. It wasn't, you know, like it slowed down and I was like, okay, 500, 500, I'm done.
Tiffany(14:07):
(00:43):
Can I just stop? Yeah,
Marissa(14:08):
Go ahead. Wait,
Tiffany(14:09):
Hold on. What the? I knew this, but I had forgotten. I had forgotten. So, so it
Marissa(14:13):
Was, it was crazy. And packages, I started doing packages you need to book. You, let's do, let's do a month, let's do four sessions for, gosh, what? 18? 1800. Oh. And then I would give them a little bit of a discount if they wanted to book for 12 sessions. The fee would kind of like, they would get like 10% off the package. It just,
Tiffany(14:39):
Are you saying they pay, they pay that upfront for the package, or they agreed to, she's nodding her head folks, if you're listening to the podcast, so people would pay you up for 1800 or eight one month, two months ahead of time. Just, just holding back.
Marissa(14:52):
The most I did was 12, I think it was a 12 session, so three months. So yeah, maybe it was like 15% off for that one, 10% off for two months, and then just the full fee, like four 50 for, for four weeks.
Tiffany(15:09):
So there are people listening now, Marissa, who are like, what? It was so easy you didn't have to do anything. Wait, you just said it wasn't okay, can you, it wasn't, can you talk to folks about what was difficult about the process?
Marissa(15:26):
Starting, starting was difficult.
Tiffany(15:29):
What? Tell us what Yeah,
Marissa(15:31):
I, well, I had mentors, thankfully I did know a couple people in private practice who like newly, so like the zero to five year in private practice colleagues and then the like 45 to 50 years in the game. And thankfully everybody told me, if you don't have to take insurance, don't. And then Covid started and I remember, yeah, like, you know, I had this like measly like handful and maybe I added a couple. I remember that too. Yeah. I was like, 180 to this person. Sure. 180 to that person. Okay. I'm like, what is happening? And then yeah, people wanted in person. I actually thought that my patients would discount phone or like video sessions. Like they're not just somehow I like equated being in person as more valuable. Mm-Hmm. Which some people do, but yeah, like they kept coming. But really like it, I remember someone texted me to book a session and I, I shared my fee, which maybe like, it was like 180, but it was a couple. So I was like two 20. And he said that that fee is cost prohibitive. I was like, oh,
Tiffany(16:54):
What, what, what, what did it feel like when you, when you, when you got this text back that that fee, your fee you gave us is cost prohibitive? What happened inside of you?
(01:04):
Marissa(17:04):
I am doomed. It is cost prohibitive. Like maybe I found the, like seven people on the planet who will, who will meet with me, but beyond that, this is not going to work. I remember during a consultation call, someone hung up when I'd said my fee
Tiffany(17:28):
Marissa(17:29):
I was like, oh, see, but Right. I remember this, but I also do remember the successes, but Right. It was daunting and yeah, I think I called him back like, Hey, did we lose our connection? He was gone
Tiffany(19:05):
When you got the one, no two, no three. No, we have, I hear from therapists, we have therapists in limb even now who say they get even one rejection, but let much less two or three or four. And they say, I need to go back. I need to lower my fee. Nobody, clearly I'm getting a sign that people can't pay this. What were your voices when you got the No, no, no, no. Five in a row. What, what would you tell yourself or what would the internal Marissa, the committee members be saying to you in those moments?
Marissa(19:36):
I'm not like fully conscious of what it was, but I think it was like, how can we improve the systems? How can I articulate my value? And I do, so I do teach a, a consultation class. Consultation call. Hmm. Right. Because you can do all the marketing, you can have all the education and training and experience as a therapist. And sometimes for me, right? Having my own private practice, it's just me. I, you know, maybe I'll hire people, maybe I'll supervise. But right now I'm pretty content seeing patients. And so I am, that call is the last step. And I did dive heavily into like marketing calls and cold calls. I don't do marketing calls, I don't do discovery, I don't do cold calls. But just trying to learn from other industries, their approach to articulating the value of their service. And so, yeah, I think I just, I tried to find other ways to approach sharing the value of my service, which I do fundamentally believe is life changing.
Marissa(21:10):
Hmm. Right. I think too, like the work that I do, obviously, like really committing to that and like, just having like a felt sense. Like, like that was a really good session and so thankfully these patients are gonna keep coming back. And then, yeah, just really sensing like, like this, this is unique. Like this is valuable. So I need to work on, everybody can go through their insurance. Everybody. Actually, I don't know. I actually, I have Kaiser and I, like, I don't qualify. I'm too high functioning even to go through, but a lot of people they could, but everyone can go to community college. Mm-Hmm. And people go to these private Ivy League schools. There's, there's, you know, at least the first two years it's pretty much the same. At least like the coursework is the same, and yet people wanna go to these, these schools. So just trying to articulate my value and what I can offer Yeah. To, to help someone discern. Okay. Yeah. Like I will, I will invest in, in this,
Tiffany(22:33):
I wanna talk with you a little bit about what you did to even be getting those phone calls. You've done a lot of work to be forward facing, attract the people who are right fit for you. We talk about that even back in 2021. Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(23:23):
That all came before you did anything with marketing or made any decisions around marketing. You had to start with a clear vision of what kind of practice you wanted In your experience when talking to therapists who are taking insurance or even, you maybe have colleagues, you've been around, you mentored in our community, you've been around a while. When people are on insurance or they're having sliding scales and seeing 20 or 30 people a week or 40, you know, clients on their caseload and charging all over the place and they say, I need to market first and get all my referrals, and then I'll raise my fee. I try to tell 'em that's backwards. But you have someone who actually did it in the opposite direction. Can you talk a little bit about why you did it the way you did and the benefits to that versus, I'm gonna take insurance and then keep taking insurance and once I get a steady stream of people at 400, then I'll get off. Why doesn't that work?
Marissa(24:14):
Good question. Why doesn't that work? Or Yeah, why was I willing to, yeah,
Tiffany(24:19):
Why were you willing to, you didn't say like, lemme get on insurance and then learn the marketing thing. You did it the other way and you failed for a long time.
Marissa(24:28):
(01:25):
Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(26:44):
This is very helpful. Thank you for articulating that. Even when you're laying it out, it's like we could have someone who's seeing 30 clients a week on insurance. Well, even stepping back further than that, the reality is we have only, we have a limited amount of time and psychic or emotional bandwidth, energetic bandwidth, it's, we have a cap. And so if 30 or 35 hours of that is going to, seeing folks on insurance or sliding scale even 20 hours, there's very little, little time. And also likely very little emotional or psychic bandwidth to go out and figure out not only how to find 300 or $400 clients, how to find them, but also how to talk to them in a way that demonstrates your value. Like learning those skills. Mm-Hmm. Having the energy to show up for them because you're exhausted. So one could either see 30 clients or even 20 a week and then have two hours to try to figure out the marketing stuff. Or they can go the route you chose, which is maybe I'm only gonna see five people and like make the money I make from that. But I'm gonna spend the other 35 hours of my week learning the tools to play the long game because I know ultimately where I want to go. Right. And if I'm gonna get there, I need the time and the bandwidth to learn who and how I need to show up to be able to have that life. That's what I hear you saying. Mm-Hmm.
Marissa(28:01):
Yeah.
Tiffany(28:02):
Okay. Phenomenal. So how did you, what was the best way you found to market? So you did that? So first folks listening, let's be clear. Marissa wasn't seeing 30 people a week and stressed out. She was spending time to figure out how to market, what was the most,
Marissa(28:15):
Figuring out how to market.
Tiffany(28:17):
What was the most what was the best results you got with marketing? What worked the best?
Marissa(28:23):
Well, we'll just do a list of what I did. So for marketing, I, I remember I went around the nearby college community and I hung up flyers. I, I think I left business cards at business card places like coffee shops and those places where yeah, there's just piles of business cards around. I updated my Psychology Today profile and other profiles.
Tiffany(28:54):
Did you take a classroom to learn that?
Marissa(28:56):
To, to I did. I signed up for a, a year long marketing course. I think after I finished Lim.
Tiffany(29:05):
Okay.
Marissa(29:06):
It's not by therapist. And I wish it had been, which is, I'm glad that I did li and had therapist as the instructor because the marketing course was very helpful. 'cause They knew marketing, but they didn't know the field. Which there are programs that have both, which I would suggest. Great.
(01:46):
Tiffany(29:29):
Thank you.
Marissa(29:30):
So profiles I posted on social media. I posted ads in the local paper. I gave workshops on mental health for free. Hmm. Where I, like online at like Wellness Wednesdays for the local universities. I presented at a, a mortgage lending office. I had younger coming out, we're stressed out 'cause the real estate industry was going crazy and their office was doing very well. But yeah, they were stressed. Smart. I interviewed on podcasts. I started my own podcast. I went to virtual and in-person networking events, and then connected with people. So tried to have virtual or in-person coffees. And I, I sent my business cards to doctors' offices.
Tiffany(30:28):
Just mailed them straight up or gave them some kind of note
Marissa(30:32):
Straight up and like, said like, hi, like this is me and this is what I specialized a mentor told me to do that. And, you know, I, I don't know. So there's, I mean, there's an array of options even beyond that. And I don't know how I was able to figure this out, but I started to discern what felt aligned and what didn't. Hmm. So I remember I did, I challenged myself. I did a TikTok Tober where I posted every day on TikTok. I think it was in 2020, it might've been 21. And by the end of it, I was exhausted. I hated TikTok and Tiffany. Some people are crushing on TikTok. They're doing amazingly well. And I think for a time and like for baby therapists out there, like, yeah. Just because like, you see and hear someone, I remember I heard someone at that same conference you presented at, I went the next year virtually 'cause of Covid.
Marissa(31:41):
And one of the presenters, she was so inspiring, but she talked about how, I think for a whole year, and this was pre Covid, she had a speaking engagement every day. And she spoke at like senior citizen places and like community centers and c like she, but she said, I spoke every day. And I was like, I need to do that. I need to speak every day. That is what will bring me success. Or I need to be TikTok famous. And yeah, thankfully over time I was able to discern, I don't need to speak every day. I don't need to be on TikTok. I, me, I love networking events. I love them. I love meeting 30 ish therapists, sharing my niche and then connecting with, oh, you work with couples. If one of the partners seems codependent, I'd love to work with them. Or if you work with a 50 something couple and they're struggling with their 20 something daughter, please send her my weight.
Marissa(32:47):
Which like, in like, real time happened. And also if a couple reached out to me, I would say I, I don't work with couples. I can, but I don't please call my friend Jeremy. And so, yeah, I, I love it. Some people hate the one minute-ish commercial that you give about yourself and they hate walking around schmoozing, but I don't know, it's therapists. So it's different. There's more depth. And so I loved that. And I loved the virtual coffees. I would set up with people afterwards, which I think you also encourage in li it's like if you connect with someone, you know, try and get together. And so I loved that. I loved podcasting as a platform. I, yeah. Interviewing a, just talking to so many people about my favorite topic, codependency. And I, yeah, I liked writing solo cast. I like teaching. I like translating complex psychological theory into digestible bits. And so over time, yeah. Like that is very reinforcing. So finding what worked. And then also, yeah, being able to say like, I don't wanna speak every day. I don't wanna be on TikTok and like, filtering over time. But yeah, look at the, I mean that's, it's probably not all the things I've done, but trying and failing and like, just sensing what works.
Tiffany(34:24):
I could be wrong. This could be a projection of mine. But when I hear you saying, Tiffany, look at all these things. I tried holding up your fingers, 10 things and probably more like, and that was a very extensive list of doing all the things we hear to do and more. Is there some part of you that's speaking to the therapist out there who's saying, I'm having a hard time marketing. I went to that thing once six months ago? Or is that only in my head when you're saying I did all of these things? Is it in comm communication or in a conversation about how you've heard therapists talk about marketing historically?
Marissa(34:54):
Say more.
Tiffany(34:55):
I mean, you're saying Tiffany, I did all of these things. Tell me why, why is that important to emphasize all the things you tried?
Marissa(35:03):
Yeah. I think I'm emphasizing it to say I tried all these things. I don't, I don't regret trying them. I didn't als, I didn't sustain most of them. But through trying them, I was able to figure out what works for me. Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(35:59):
(02:07):
I hear. Well, there's always the, the conscious conversations and the unconscious and the context in which we're having this conversation. And exactly what you said, I I think there are so many thi me go back, you said, I wanna be charging premium fees because I, I want the life I want, so I'm gonna try everything. What people tell me, I'm gonna try it. Maybe I like it, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna try it because I know where I'm gonna go. I'm gonna get there some way. So I need to find out how I'm gonna get there. Versus I wanna the other voice I wanna charge two 50. I, I, I tried networking and I went on three coffee dates. It didn't work. I guess nobody will pay me premium fees. Lemme charge one 50. You're like, I'm gonna find a way to make it work, to get to, I wanna get
Marissa(36:39):
Right.
Tiffany(36:41):
I also wanna highlight, this is beautiful thinking about what you ultimately ended up doing with marketing and for you, it works so well. And for anybody who, who likes to be out in the world and is comfortable having conversations, having conversations you are really, and for tell folks your podcast, for people who don't know,
Marissa(36:59):
It's the Codependence podcast. It's all about empowering young women to stop playing monster, taking up space.
Tiffany(37:08):
I almost like did the voice with you. And I'm like, I can't do that on a podcast. Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay. So you have this beautiful podcast where you really, it it's clear you're passionate about working with young women around codependence. You share your personal journey in a thoughtful way. You teach, you have guests. It's like this is your passion. You've made a choice to go into this very specific niche. That's number one. You then go out into the world and you find mutual fits or you find what's the word I'm looking for that I'm now gonna forget? When you have a connection where they, you don't see the same people, but you see a, what's the word I'm looking for? No, I just forgot it. But it's hand in hand. So you see p the person you see serves, they can send people to you and you can send people to them.
Tiffany(37:55):
You can collaborate together. Yes. And because you love this audience, you say like, oh, you know, you have a couple and there seems to be some codependency with this, you know, 30-year-old or 28-year-old couple. This is what I specialize in. Or you are see 50 year olds who are married and struggling, they have 20 old daughters. Look, I specialize. So it's not like you're smarty or salesy. You're just like, I'm passionate about this. Let's talk about it with your colleagues. But then it doesn't stop there. You then have an entire body of work, your podcast four years with consistency that shows you're not just going to say it at one marketing thing and then going back and doing, seeing all kind of people and doing all kind of things. You can, then those people know you're serious about what you do. They can go listen to how you think. So you have a long place to nurture. Show your expertise, show your thought leadership beyond just meeting someone one off at a party or at a networking event. I think that's brilliant. A brilliant demonstration of what it really looks like to say, I'm gonna commit to a particular audience. I'm gonna actually put my money where my mouth is and say, I'm not just charging $500 because I want to, I'm charging $500 because look at this body of work I've developed over time. Right. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna stop there.
Marissa(39:03):
Thank you.
Tiffany(39:04):
Yeah, it's really, really thoughtful. And folks, if you haven't listened to the podcast, this is one of the podcasts I actually of, of therapy in the therapist world. I don't listen to really any podcasts, but I do listen to Marissa's. Not all of them of course. And actually I don't even love the guest ones. I like your solo ones where you are actually getting up there teaching. What, what do you say it, what do you say? Why do you say it like that? I
Marissa(39:21):
Do not because everybody loves the solo cast and I'm rolling my eyes and sticking my tongue out because I hate this guest. 'cause They're with me. And I have to reflect and share and be honest and yeah, like share anecdotally about certain topics that it takes a lot of courage at times to share about them. Yeah.
Tiffany(39:50):
You do it very well and you do it in a measured way. You do it in anyways, folks, just go listen. If you wanna hear if you, if you have any codependent tendencies, which you probably do. Marissa does a really thoughtful, has really thoughtful way of just like you said, making complex issues clear and concise. Mm-Hmm.
Marissa(40:34):
I went on maternity leave in January, so I took off four weeks before my due date. And I was financially planning for that. And I also, yeah, I thankfully knew of colleagues who worked until their water broke and they said, don't do that. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I hear you. I won't do that. Right. I won't let fear of financial insecurity. You know, I, I just, yeah, I wanted to nest. I wanted to rest. I did stay in touch with Tiffany and I remember I texted you 'cause I was grateful for like, the help with challenging my money stories in limb because I think once I was done with the first trimester, I told my husband, we need to hire a night nurse. We're gonna pay someone to help us at night so we can sleep as much as possible with a newborn.
(02:28):
Marissa(41:34):
And so this, this is years in the making. But yeah, we, we saved, we had a nest egg. We had invested. And so I was already looking forward to working with our nightmares. Pam, she's amazing, Pam. And so yeah. So I told my patients, I'm taking off at this date. I need to take care of myself and my baby. I took that time off, gave birth, Pam started coming. And that was an expense, but it was an investment. Right. So even that perspective and thanks to hiring Pam, not that long after I gave birth organically, I told my husband, I am I I'm, I'm ready to go back. Hmm. I miss my patients. I do, I miss them. Okay. I miss them and I want
Marissa(42:47):
Is it okay with you? And for those of you who want to that sense of weekly sessions, I'll sandwich you and we can meet early in the week, like Monday or Tuesday and then later in the week, Thursday, Friday. So you still have the frequency of weekly sessions. But I, I want to balance work with being a new mom and yeah. Coming back. That was, that was how I started. And now, yeah, I'm working biweekly. I am teaching a masterclass. I said I, I teach a consultation call masterclass a Lim grad. He hired me to work for his group practice. So that's been a nice auxiliary generating, income generating avenue. And I forget what else I was talking about, but yeah. So I'm seeing patients every other week. I did, I do have a couple more slots and so very similar to how I started, it's like okay, like three 50.
Marissa(43:56):
Okay, let's do three 50 for this call. And then we, okay. Okay. Okay. Now Marette, this is 400, 400 and I like put it on piece of paper before I have the call and yeah, just like gaining confidence and really being present, committing to the work within session reading and studying outside of session. And yeah, I was like, oh, maybe I'll start back by weekly. But it's been like three, three and a half months. And so far I really like this pace. Hmm. And I'm checking in with my patients, is this pace okay? You know, for those who are really biweekly or who are coming more often, like what is this pace? Like? And thinking I could be a biweekly therapist at infinitum. Mm-Hmm. And I remember in li there was another student who she was gonna do three weeks on, one week off. And I was like, that's not allowed.
Marissa(45:05):
That's not allowed. There's, there's a rule somewhere says you can't do that. And now here I am like, oh, I'm gonna be biweekly. Potentially. I don't know if I'll do it forever. But it has been so nice to know, okay, this week I am working, we have to, you know, work around my schedule, give help from grandparents, et cetera. And then this next week we're gonna go do this activity that I've wanted to take the baby to or we're going to meet up with this mom group that I need support and connection with. We're going to, he's gonna get a couple shots and I will be present for the rest of the day because it is likely going to be a rough one. And it's been so nice to have the space and flexibility and like overall confidence in myself that I can sustain this. Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(46:06):
So wonderful to hear. Like I'm just thinking about I'm, I'm gonna put this into a, some kind of question. The Marissa I hear now is intentionally planning ahead. I'm gonna go on maternity leave, I'm gonna take time off leading up to that. I'm gonna pay for a n nurse 'cause I really wanna make sure I'm able to show up fully and get the help I need. I'm gonna come back to biweekly sessions so I can show up for my kiddo fully. If my kid has shots today, I'm gonna be able to take the whole day to spend with them. Compare that to
Tiffany(46:57):
Just like, what I hear is like overwhelmed, stressed out, has no money. Marissa's making like, cry, what was me? But look at those are real, like so many people listening are overwhelmed running outta money. They're really like living day to day. When life happens to them. They, they just are thrown off Course therapists enter limb like this often to now when you're able to plan ahead, things come up, you can manage 'em just a night and day. When you're reflecting on what had to shift in you, what were some of the biggest paradigm shifts that the Marissa can sit in in front of me now planning a way ahead of being thoughtful compared to the Marissa who everything that happened in life just threw you off. Totally. How do you think about these two versions of yourself?
Marissa(47:38):
Yeah. It it is significant. It is radical. I know for a fact that five years ago I would never have thought of hiring a night nurse. So I'd come from this lineage like my great grandparents were depression babies. My grandparents were children of depression babies. And like we'd nicknamed some of my relatives and my dad like frugal McDougal. Like, oh, there's frugal McDougal. And the sentiment is like, why pay for something if you can do it yourself? So why pay for a night nurse if you can take care of your baby at night? Why would you pay someone to do that? And trying to see the value beyond the dollar amount, which is, I I will, I'm going to be sleeping, I'm gonna be getting input and feedback and suggestions from an expert. I am going to like be able to hand off my baby to someone besides my partner when we're both completely overwhelmed.
Marissa(48:53):
I am going, I don't know, she was so like loving and supportive. Like, like she took care of the baby and she took care of me. Mm. Like, I need care too. I'm gonna get care. And so I think, yeah, a big shift was looking beyond the dollar amount to what am I investing in and what other value is there if and when I do spend money, it's just, it's not just the money. And so I'm, I'm just going here 'cause it's, this is where I'm going. So hiring a night nurse, we had my baby shower at a restaurant catered when Yeah. In my family, it's like, why would we go to a restaurant when we can toil all morning and probably the night before and not sleep well and you know, potentially be on the brink of divorce and estrangement by the time the party starts.
Marissa(49:57):
But we're gonna save. I don't even, not that much money, but like why, why would we pay? And so no, it's, I'm gonna pay for peace of mind. I'm gonna pay to show up at my party right when it starts. I'm gonna pay for cohesion and harmony and no cleanup and no setup and all this time saved as a consequence. And so yeah, I think yeah, big shift was like, like not, it's just not a cost, it's an investment. And then trying to see the value beyond the dollar amount to like, what am I getting as a consequence? And I think I did get a lot of sympathy for not having a lot of money, even though I grew up like middle class, like upper middle class still like the weird lineage and like money stuff and like being like a woman and like shifting that to, yeah. I don't want that to be part of my story is like, poor me with all of these, with life being so hard. It's just like, how can I have a safety net when life happens?
Tiffany(51:18):
That's really wonderful. I'm thinking also what a what a gift to give to your kid and potentially kids. You're shifting the story, you're shifting an entire generations of stories by choosing to do something different. Choosing to show up differently in the world.
Marissa(51:36):
(02:49):
Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(51:36):
What would you say to a therapist who's listening who is in the place of, I'm struggling. Maybe nobody will ever pay me these fees. I I feel like I have to be on insurance or I have to slide my scale or charge $80 per session. What would you say to them who, who's also benefiting from the, they go out and say to their friends, it's so hard and their therapist friends say, it is so hard. What would you say to them about life on the other side?
Marissa(52:02):
I spoke to a therapist this week who actually called me just with that narrative. Hmm. And she was trying to figure out, I I have a testimonial for the marketing court or a marketing course that I took. So she was calling to get my, my feedback and I told her, yeah, she was going on and on. Like, oh, I'm, I'm worried about this and it's a big cost and I'm seeing people on insurance. And she said, she said, you know, therapists on insurance like, we're getting raped. I was like, oh God, have a strong analogy. But yeah, it was a good reminder for me like, like stay the course Marissa and, and she, yeah, she, she's trying to, to find what, what, what is her next step. She's a new mom, all these things. And I, you know, I'm listening, I'm sharing how the course was for me, and I did say, I was like, and just so you know, you can totally do this. You can work the number of hours you wanna work. You can see the type of clients you wanna see. You can charge the fee that provides the lifestyle that you want. You, you can do this, you can totally do this.
Marissa(53:23):
And I really, I fundamentally believe that we are professionals. We are providing life changing experiences, right? Corrective experiences. We have a lot of power in that therapy room. And with that power a lot can happen, hopefully, hopefully in a good way. And yeah, thankfully I have been exposed to therapists who have done it, who are doing it, who continue to do it, and thus the possibility is sustained. And I don't think that that reality of it's so hard. All my colleagues were all saying, it's so hard. That's like one reality and
Tiffany(54:23):
There's another reality folks. Marissa, if people wanna learn more about you, just see what you're doing out in the world, what's the best way, way for people to find you or learn more about you?
Marissa(54:35):
My website therapy with marissa.com.
Tiffany(54:41):
Beautiful. Thank you. So
Marissa(54:42):
Podcast is there, yeah,
Tiffany(54:45):
We'll link to the website and the podcast folks, go check it out. Whether, if you have any question or interest or curiosity about codependency, even if you just wanna hear how Marissa thinks, if you are somebody who's in place of charging $80 or being on insurance, I, I, I firmly believe, and I'm sure Marissa, you're on board with this, your work around Codependence show was showing up in your clinical work and your ability to charge these premium fees has to do with your understanding, articulating and really working on getting out of codependent dynamics. So folks, go check out that podcast. Even think about how you are likely playing out codependent dynamics in your clinical work if you're doing work and you're not making enough money. Marissa, thank you so much.
Marissa(55:30):
Thank you Tiffany.
Outro (55:37):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to Your woman, Well, I Mean that's, that's, That's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to Right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.