Leaving Insurance Panels and Surviving a 50% Decrease in Revenue: Here’s What Ginelle Did Next.

Ready to set your fee? You choose the dream, we'll do the math. Download our FREE Fun with Fees Calculator here 👉🏽 https://www.leaninmakebank.com/free

 

In this episode, we’re speaking with Ginelle Krummey, a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and LIMB grad based in North Carolina.  

In today’s interview with Tiffany, Ginelle talks about how she continued to move forward even after she got off of insurance panels and lost about half of her caseload.  

While her husband was also leaving his job. With a baby on the way.  

At this point, many therapists would have given up, gone back, said it was impossible and returned to the relative security of a soul-crushing system—but not Ginelle.  

Ginelle was determined to move forward and create the life that she ACTUALLY wanted for herself, a life that was in integrity with who and how she wanted to be.  

Here’s her story. 

 

In this episode, Ginelle shares: 

How Ginelle decreased her hours and set a schedule that worked for her (which included leaving ALL insurance panels); 

Three signs that made it clear that she needed to make a massive shift to her schedule and practice, even as other life transitions were happening; 

The “afterlife”—what happened after she made these changes and how it prepared her for the world events that were to come; 

Three pieces of strategic advice around shifting your mindset to help you be in integrity with who and how you want to be (even if it’s scary); 

How she and her community were impacted by Hurricane Helene; 

How building a life and practice that truly supports her helped her navigate the hurricane and its aftermath with resilience, ease, and the ability to support others.

 

Resources mentioned: 

LIMB Academy

FWF Calculator

Ginelle’s Website 

Ginelle’s Instagram

 

More about Ginelle:

 

Ginelle Krummey, LCMHC provides integrative feminist analytic therapy for couples and individuals in her scenic homesite office in the mountains outside of Asheville, NC. Ginelle specializes in burnout response and prevention for individuals and corporate entities. Ginelle contributes to the advancement of feminism with advocacy writing about the experiences and unmet needs of the population of birthing people she calls breastfeeding breadwinners. Outside of work, Ginelle spends time with her toddler and husband, Australian Shepherd and 4 chickens. 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tiffany(00:01):

(00:01):
Pandemic a hurricane 2024 election results. What does it take to not only survive, but thrive in a world that at times can feel and in reality, is so far out of our control? That is what we're going to be exploring today with Ginelle Krummey. Ginelle is a licensed therapist who works outta North Carolina, right where the flooding just occurred back in September, October. What is it like to maintain one's clarity, one's focus, one's sense of wellbeing, and one's clinical integrity, despite a world that at times feels totally outta control, that's what gonna be talking about today. By the way, if you don't know, my name is Tiffany McLain. I'm the creator of the Lean In Make Bank Academy, where we help therapists step into their desire, actually show up and be seen. Because the fact is so many therapists are waiting to deserve, like, I gotta work harder to earn a good living.
Tiffany(01:11):
I got, I, I I gotta bust my behind before I'm worth actually having a life that feels easeful, financially abundant, spacious. And I'm here to tell you, you actually already have earned it. You already deserve it. Not only because you have already got a grad school and become a licensed professional after doing your 3000 hours of licensure process, and all of the years or decades you have spent honing, honing your craft, honing your craft. I don't know which one it is. Developing your craft. How about that? But also simply as a human being, we are part of a system that says, your job is to work and work and work and sacrifice, and sacrifice and sacrifice so that someone else who's more deserving at the top gets rich. I say, that. That is not the reality I choose to live in. And I would like to usher you into a new way of being in this conversation.
Tiffany(02:05):
We talked to Ginelle, who went from being on insurance panels, seeing 25 to 30 clients a week during pandemic times, and starting to get an inkling that, ooh, this is not gonna work for her for the next 30 years. She decides to make a change. She joins us in the Lean In Make Bank Academy, decides she's gonna shift her schedule around to actually make space for her, make the announcements to her clients. And about she loses about half of her private practice revenue right around the same time her husband leaves his job just shortly before she gets pregnant for the first time. Talk about stress, talk about a reason to jump back to the status quo, talk about a reason to resort back to the system. But Ginelle chose a different path. She chose a path that allowed her to be in integrity with who she is as a human being, who she is as a therapist, and who she wants to be as a mom and a member of our society as an act of social justice. She said, I'm not returning to a system that says women, minorities, people of color, folks from the L-G-B-T-Q community. I'm not returning to a system that says what we do is worth less. What we do is not valuable. What we do as professionals, I'm not returning to a system that says we do not deserve to get paid. So she stayed the course. And in this episode, you're gonna find out what happened.
Intro (03:31):
I think there's a difference between saying what your fee is and like fully committing to it. I believe in this like law of attraction, but you also have to take action. I don't think I do enough to help other people despite being, despite being a therapist, I was worried that I'd end up only serving wealthy people. You Know, I was being so delusional about my actual cost, right? I wasn't actually paying myself a real salary. Now that I am charging more, I'm not lying to myself. This is ridiculous. Completely broken, man. If people knew who they were, my do what she's doing, like she's doing this.
Tiffany(04:13):
All right, folks, here I am, as you know, from the intro, even though I, this is coming out, who knows when that you're listening to this. Ginelle and I are recording it the day after the election results. So you might hear that come up in our conversation. You may hear that in our voices, or you may not. Either way, we're ready to do the work. We're gonna dive in. So let us start with this. Ginelle, please introduce yourself. Tell folks a little bit about you and your practice.
Ginelle(04:44):
Yeah thanks for having me. I am Ginelle Krummey. I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor, and I'm located outside of Asheville, North Carolina. My practice is called Growth Point Collaborative Counseling and Group Facilitation, PLLC. And I do feminist analytic therapy for individuals and couples. I also enjoy doing an organizational consultation for burnout, responsive prevention. And then my, my fun special offer is individual therapy retreats where we get to co-create a day or three of any person adding together a bunch of therapeutic interventions to, to recover from something or to make a big change or for really any purpose, which is really fun.
Tiffany(05:33):
I love that. We're definitely, I wanna hear more about that, who that's good for. You also have, well, we'll talk about this in our deep dive. You were right in the midst of this hurricane that happened, I think just a month ago at the time. We're recording. So we'll hear about how that impacted your land, how it's impacted your practice, and then also who, who's a good fit for these retreats, which is really exciting.
Ginelle(05:52):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah,
Tiffany(05:54):
Actually that, that feeds right into our next question, which is what we're here to talk about today, which is how you changed your schedule, how you got off insurance panels and really how you got your time back, the changes you made in order to prioritize your time. So with that in mind, take us back to the days before you made these changes, before you really got honest about schedule. Where was this in time, what year, and what was happening in your practice in those days?
Ginelle(06:21):
Yeah, sure. So I started my practice in 2019 and I had about eight months or six months to build without any insurance panels. And I was using open path sliding scale, and people were finding me, it was rolling in, I was getting my legs under me and doing supervision and enjoying the process. And I started taking insurance later in the first year. So I took only one panel, it was Blue Cross and then 2020 happened. So basically I had all this momentum and I felt like, woo hoo, I'm here and, and then here's this, like, whoa. Everybody's virtual, the like safety of everybody's threatened. And we also have the political polarization of, of whatever is happening, rather not feel into right now, . And so I basically tested out like, okay, well maybe I'll work Saturdays in my building phase.
Ginelle(07:26):
I had to start, I joined like a group practice for a very brief time to get full after some years of no income during internship and grad school. So when the pandemic came and I was taking insurance, there were no shortage of cases, right? All kinds of learning clinically was happening. I had 25 to 30 cases or sessions a week to like be working on my craft, which was fun and cool and everything, but I was also like getting tired. And yeah, I felt like there was really a max to how much work I can do because of the way that the fees will kind of always stay the same and they're not giving us raises around here too often or commensurately with the cost of living. And so, you know, at a hundred sessions a month was maybe maxing out at 8,000 per month.

(00:22):
Ginelle(08:20):
And I was like, wow, this is like something I've never seen or imagined before. And I'm tired and I don't know if I can do this for 30 years 'cause I really would like to do it for 30 years. I love this work and therapy and I wanted to be able to get, like, actually give clients thought outside of the time I'm sitting in there, in front of me. Because when your wall to wall and your life is happening outside you don't really get the contemplation time to think about your next supportive move with someone.
Tiffany(08:54):
It's really interesting that you're, you were aware even at that point that you were not, you did not have the space or the contemplation time to really be thinking about your people outside of that 50 minutes they were in front of you. What impact? Yeah, go ahead. Well,
Ginelle(09:11):
That's the kind of condition where it's like people become invaded by cases when they're like, ah, this is my off time. I'm supposed to be like thinking about my own life. But in the state I'm in now where everything is lighter and there's more space and there's fewer people to consider I get to do better work and it doesn't feel like an intrusion when I have an aha moment about a client outside of session or while I'm parenting my toddler. Like, it's, it's actually welcome that I get to have that the occurrence of thought.
Tiffany(09:41):
That's interesting. So you are bringing us into this idea of some red flags. So you, as you're describing it now, it's pandemic times. Your practice has only been around a year or a year and a half. You see 25 to 30 people a week, $8,000 a month, people are listening like, isn't that great? Like, that's what I'm doing or that that's what I, I want. So once that's your
Ginelle(10:01):
Take home.
Tiffany(10:02):
Yeah. That's your take home. Well, okay, so you're saying like, that's not what I'm, that's not going in my bank. All of that at the end of the day. So $8,000, what does that mean you're taking home? You don't have to be exact, but roughly at
Ginelle(10:11):
The time, at the time I was shooting to make four and five like regularly, and I just, I would say arrived at eight. It was like my best month I ever had one 10 k month on insurance before like maybe a dip in holiday season. And, and then lean bank, bank came into my life,
Tiffany(10:30):
Lean big bank. Let's go before Lean In Make Bank. So one thing you noticed is when you were on your off time, when you were seeing 25 to 30 people a week on your off time when thoughts of your clinical work came up, or if you thought of clients in that time, it felt like an intrusion. Can you say more about this?
Ginelle(10:44):
I think it's just kind of like this classic symptom where people are like, yeah, and I can't stop thinking about my clients. And guess why , there's too many of them. There's so many of them that you can't stop processing what happened today and yesterday and like your thoughts catching up with Right. Your, your PAC schedule doesn't let you think about anything. You just have to get through to the next one. So I think there's a problem with that as like a sign of it's normal that we consider like thinking about your clients on the off time of bad thing. And it really actually kind of is exactly what should be happening. It's not so much
Tiffany(11:27):
That's interesting. So you're saying if you're seeing people five or six or seven people a day and you find yourself, oh no, I'm now at home and I'm supposed to be with my partner or supposed to be with my kid and I'm thinking about my clients, what I hear you saying is, yes, you should have space to think about your clients, but if you're in front of people for six hours straight, the only time to think about them is when you're with your family. If you're not carving out, time to think about them during your workday is, do I get that right?
Ginelle(11:50):

(00:43):
Yeah. . Yeah.
Tiffany(11:52):
Okay. Really interesting. What, what, what was some other red flags that made you feel like, I can't keep doing this thing?
Ginelle(12:02):
It was, I think basically there's the content was starting to slip too. I think there was enough that I just wasn't holding from week to week with people that I would like, would normally with my normal brain power, know and keep and remember, I remember identifying as a person who doesn't forget things and when I was forgetting things, it wasn't sitting well. And I think other red flags are really related to like, who is subsidizing the work which, you know, ends up being the whole household, right? My husband was working a lot too, and I wasn't seeing him and I was like, oh, well, we're both working hard in pandemic times and is this the life we're really trying to have for 30 more years? And so big changes had to happen that I think were enabled by the, the shifts I made to
Tiffany(12:58):
This might be unique to you. I I've known you for some time. I find you to be very thoughtful. So maybe this is just how you think. Mm-Hmm. when you are in this working your behind off, your husband's working his behind off. A lot of people listening right now are, that's just the state of things. They don't even question it. You've said multiple times today that you kept thinking, I can't do this for 30 years. Mm-Hmm. what allowed you to have some space between what was happening and your ability to reflect on what you wanted to be happening? How did you, how were you able to come out to reflect on what do I actually want for myself ultimately? Mm-Hmm.
Ginelle(13:33):
I think it could be like a political identity around like, creating the world we're trying to live in. It could also be the like obsession or fixation I have with like, what is sustainability and what is burnout in the world? And I came to the concept of talking about burnout from a therapist and or like health and human services career person. But I also recognize that burnout is happening in all fields and in the context of capitalism. You know, we're all being exploited and burned out and maximized to the extent that we are shrinking and we accept this as the norm because it's, we're surviving it. So like I fight to be a person who is not surviving it, but like shifting what I can so that I can start to question and have the brain space to actually like write things or question stuff and, and be active.
Tiffany(14:28):
It's beautiful. So people who are listening out there, here's your chance. Maybe you don't have the space to be thinking of these things, but because you're listening to this podcast right now, Ginelle's inviting you for this moment to think about your own s space, to think about what you want for yourself to step out of a system that is minimizing us. I love how you said that getting maximal effort out of us with very little return. You're saying, I invite you to step out and think about what else could be possible for you. Yeah.
Ginelle(14:57):
Yeah.
Tiffany(14:59):
So you decide, okay, I gotta do something different. What, what made you think like getting off insurance panels was the way, or, or kind of how did you start thinking about what it was gonna look like for you to do something different?
Ginelle(15:16):
I think how did I start was basically like you , I mean, I, I, I happened upon fee week just as an algorithmic happy place. I don't know. I was like, I, I was aware that you existed. I had Alison per years in my community, she was giving a talk. She mentioned fund with fees calculator. I already knew it was there. And then there you're on my feed, and then I'm like taking the free week and I'm like looking at it and listening to you talking about there's other ways. And then I think you said basically then the, what sent it home for me was like, it is activism to like change the system that is oppressive to this field. And so there's, there's radicalism that like appealed to me that I was like, okay, I can actually, this is not a, like a white supremacist thing to do to charge high fees. It's actually a radical act to say the field is not okay. And I've been saying that for a long time. So it was aligned and I didn't know it was aligned until the exposures to the alternate idea.
Tiffany(16:26):
Yes, I love it. Okay. So folks who are listening, we have a fun with fee calculator. You can go click around this episode, click down below, and you can actually get a sense of what your fee needs to be based on the life you wanna have. If you were to step out of the system that is squeezing the life outta you while someone at the top is getting rich alone. But toss, if you're working with better help, somebody's getting rich. If you're not, if you're working behind enough and not making money, somebody is so be paying attention to who, so for you to know, you're like, okay, somebody's getting rich. These therapists are serving and working so hard, giving so much of themselves, probably even before they got licensed and were therapists. And you said, oh, I'm, I'm gonna actually step outta the system starting with myself.
Ginelle(17:06):
Yeah. And I really end up like believing and knowing that like it's important for money to be in the hands of people who do good and who can advocate for folks without it and or victims of capitalism. So it's yeah, it just helps to kind of know that like, shouldn't the money be in your hands if you're going to do awesome things with it. Accepting that this is the context of capitalism, which we would also change potentially. But slow road and here we are right now, so

(01:04):
Tiffany(17:41):
That's right. Here we are. What, when you were thinking about making these changes really making changes to a schedule potentially leaving insurance panels, what scared you?
Ginelle(17:55):
I just usually, I, I never trust something until I see it happen. So I was like, I don't know if anybody's gonna pay me my first private pay fee, which I think was one 50. Fortunately I had one case come on right before I switched and the person agreed. And so I had like one little hope. And as it turned out for me, which I know there are all kinds of different stories around everybody stays, lots of people stay, some people don't. And in my case, very few people did. And so I had a lot of grief and release. My bigger fears did come true. I lost several relationships or lost or didn't want to lose several cases of work that I would've kept doing. And I also knew I was tired and needed a rest. So it was okay to have the downtime where I got to start learning about business and about marketing. But my, my fears were this won't go and I will have to basically revert back to the status. And this year transitioning off and rebuilding something is, is taking my time away from like when I could be building up to retirement or other goals that I have.
Tiffany(19:09):
Oh, interesting. So you were aware of the lost you, even though you said, okay, now I I need this rest. I now have space to market and really learn about business. That was the pro you were also aware of. This doesn't work out. This could be an entire year of lost savings and investment.
Ginelle(19:26):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany(19:27):
Those are real stakes.
Ginelle(19:29):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And at the time my husband was also working, so there was like, okay, I could take this risk and like maybe my practice, it wasn't like my house did not depend on it at the time. But the fun part of this story is where basically let's give a timeline of 2021. I joined Li March. I give the notice to my insurance panel, I'm leaving. So three months starts sticking right there building friendships in the community, which I really enjoy and still enjoy to this day. So like June, may, June, I'm, I'm saying goodbye to folks. My caseload is empty. It's kind of light. August, my husband leaves his job, my income is basically cut in half roughly. But there is savings because at that, but prior to then, you know, we had two incomes for a little while and we had jobs during the pandemic year the first year, which was amazing. And then I'm pregnant in October .
Ginelle(20:36):
So like the, the volume like turned up several notches on like, you better make this private faith thing work. And so that kind of pressure, it does okay with me. Like I'm, I've only known pressure so far in career in surviving the world post 2008. And I, I basically just decided to become a badass. Or like, just decide like, I'm gonna do this. This is, it was happening. There was enough promise at the time, and I was like, all right, let's keep going. There's just a little bit of increase every month in the rebuild. And I had some hope. And I was also able to take have the space in the semi empty caseload to do consulting work at four figures influencing organizations around their burnout culture. And so I got to do other stuff to make up losses and to expand offerings and like work on the business part and doing things I like that aren't just one-to-one.
Tiffany(21:33):
This is really interesting. So I'm gonna, I wanna talk about organizational adult consulting. Some people might say like, ha, wait, where did that come from? So, okay folks, we'll get to that in a minute. Come back to we have people leaving in limb right now who are in the place where they are getting off panels and finding out that some people or a significant portion of their caseload is not gonna come with them, may or may not. That's, that's therapist worst nightmare, best case scenario. You make the changes, you have 30 people, 15, stay. You're now making the same amount. Yay. That was not your situation.
Ginelle(22:06):
Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany(22:06):
So first there was that, then your husband leaves his job. Mm-Hmm. And then your, your income go gets cut in half your revenue, your husband leaves his job and then you get pregnant. Yeah. In those moments, because I know there are people there right now, what was going through your mind? Did, like, did you feel sick in your stomach? Would you feel like, what the FI gotta go back. What am I doing? What was happening for you in that pressure state?
Ginelle(22:30):

(01:25):
I know that I basically experienced the pregnancy itself as a very, like a frightening beginning. And to which proved out to take a lot of adjustment. I'm not like a, a woman who spent my early twenties envisioning the time I would have a baby. I was like, I think I want to maybe, sorry. Well, I'll wait to feel the urge. Time goes by. I'm 34 and this, like, we just, like, we're ready ish to see. And so I, I think fear was up at the time. Like I was, it took some bravery and I also just like, wasn't sure if I was gonna survive childbirth. So like, I didn't know where the fear or pressure was coming from except for it's within my value system to be a woman breadwinner, a mother breadwinner, and a career identified mother. And I don't know what's gonna happen. I simply don't know what's gonna happen. I know it's gonna be transformational, I'm afraid of it. And also a million people have done this before. Millions and billions of mothers exist. So somehow something must be going okay with becoming one. So I just went in.
Tiffany(23:48):
You both had the anxiety of trying understand like, this baby, if you have a vaginal delivery, this baby is gonna come out of there, or it's gonna come out, it's gonna come out some way and it's gonna cause an opening of one's body. Just like what? That's a terrifying, that alone is terrifying. So you were contending with that. And also the reality of I'm just making all these changes to my practice, it is on me now to succeed.
Ginelle(24:11):
Mm-Hmm. .
Tiffany(24:19):
What? how do I say? You said I, I I have endured hardship. A hardship is not new to me. Mm-Hmm. . I'm gonna make the decision to be a badass.
Ginelle(24:34):
Mm-Hmm. .
Tiffany(24:36):
It's gonna be hard either way. Some therapists take the heart of 30 clients a week, no time for themselves. Stressed out, overwhelmed. You chose the heart of the unknown.
Ginelle(24:51):
Mm-Hmm. .
Tiffany(24:52):
What I heard you say in there, you've said this multiple times in different ways, is you became clear about your values. What, what is truly important to you? Mm-Hmm. . Who and how do you wanna be in this world? And what kind of hard are you going to choose? Like, how does that hard relate to how you are, what's important to you? Can you say at, at that time when you were really in it and clients were leaving and you didn't know if it was really gonna work, you saw signs, but you didn't really know who, who, what did you know about Ginelle? What did you know about how you wanted to be in the world? What your values were that allowed you to keep moving forward even in the hard?
Ginelle(25:34):
I think, well, I knew it was invested in the career and the work and allowing my activism to happen in a streamlined way with what I'm already up to. So like I know that what I do in the world as a profession is good stuff. And I feel like I had enough faith in my practice so far and results so far, even though the clients themselves were not staying. 'cause They didn't ever agree necessarily to a cash base set up with us. Like, I get it. And, and there was still the work that happened within there that was like so compelling that I was kind of like, well let me do that again over here with this different financial setup. And it was curious to me like, what was the impact of the third person in the room, the insurance payer, or now it is, what is the impact of the third factor in the room money?
Ginelle(26:30):
And, and, and that's always interesting and stuff. But I think ultimately I, I became convinced of the righteousness of if I have these types of privileges, can I use those to like push an edge of an envelope that like would impact other people such as clinicians of color or making norms in therapy world be that we get paid. 'cause This is a really, really woman centered profession at this point. Didn't start that way, but well kind of did a little bit. But it's a, it's a feminized work environment that like is also being exploded. So like, it felt like a lane that I could actually choose in a time of activism that like, I was supposed to be doing a lot of listening and learning and supporting people of color and otherwise marginalized people that like this was a space where I could activate and take risks and risk my livelihood for a time, be somewhat uncomfortable for a little while, which I'm still uncomfortable to some extent, but I can tolerate this. I can afford this so that maybe the field changes and so maybe I can treat people with better quality and more intentional interventions. Yeah.
Tiffany(27:45):
The long game you're doing the, the, the temporary discomfort intention for the longer game and the bigger vision.

(01:46):
Ginelle(27:51):
Yeah.
Tiffany(27:53):
Okay. Folks, you're gonna wanna get in touch with Ginelle, we'll tell you how to, we'll tell you how to at the end of this episode. So now let's do, before we jump into the, the deep dive section, talk a little bit about what your schedule looks like now, what your life looks like now after having done the hard thing and made these changes. How was it different from before?
Ginelle(28:21):
It's been actually some time now, right? It's 2024. That all happened in 2021, so it's been a full two years and then some during which, like, I rebuilt it again because when I went on maternity leave, like not everybody came back who said they were going to. I think the wonder of, of what it is now is like, I currently work Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and it is a perpetual weekend with and in post hurricane, like I'm a little bit Monday, Wednesday only. And so there's just like I don't know, I wouldn't be able to get the space to start like mixing sourdough and baking and like actually learning the things about existing on the property that we own. Like there's, there's stuff that like gets to happen in my childcare that wouldn't get to happen if I were working offsite and like for someone else.
Ginelle(29:30):
And this many hours I get to be, you know, right next door to my own house. And like seeing my child immediately and, you know, we were, we were collaborating in the time when I was breastfeeding and it was basically like, okay, this practice gets to accommodate me and if that means I book a, a client every other hour to, to pull this thing off. Like I found a way to do that. And then it made me very curious, how do people do this without these conveniences? And a stay at home dad, like the, the childcare is outsourced and we're just now starting to experiment with that, and she's two and a half. And so we've been able to delay that and do the like, direct attachment work in the early years. And I feel like that's been a benefit. And a hardship at the same time. ,
Tiffany(30:27):
What you, you're talking about for folks who all, just for folks who are listening, can you describe, describe your land. Ginelle is like a homesteader with chicken sourdough bread. Talk a little bit about what your surround is like.
Ginelle(30:41):
Yeah. so we moved from Asheville to Marshall on Insurrection Day. . I love like the timeline and the marking of history. It's so, you know, we moved out here to a, a ridge of a mountain with views on this side and views on that side in western North Carolina is truly like on exhibit here in my house. And we have forests I can walk to if, you know, the field is, is moan, we can stay on top of things to actually keep the grass down. And it's a, it's a gift to have had access to a property like this and to have the, the manpower and otherwise to be able to like be here. So I immediately was like, this is clearly my house and office set up because there's a separate building that I'm in right now that my husband rebuilt to, to be my therapy office, but I cannot keep this to myself, right? It has to be shared, it has to be a way for people in cities to access country and for clients who are stuck in those routines to come out here and be like, oh yeah, air, oh yeah, clouds, mountains and all that stuff. Stars. Yeah, you can
Tiffany(31:56):
See the stars.
Ginelle(31:57):
The stars are, my child saw the stars the other night. She's like, have you seen stars ? Because the, the night is happening so early, she's not getting to bed by the time they're out. So that's, anyway,
Tiffany(32:09):
So could I also am curious to hear a little bit about back in the day, 25 to 30 clients back to back to back then they were intruding on you at night and weekends. How, how are you able to think about clients differently now? How are you able to be more in integrity in your clinical work now that you have this spaciousness?
Ginelle(32:29):
Hmm. This is truly, like, I get to notice this as my years go by and my maturity increases around as a clinician. Like I, I have, and maybe I need these accommodations. Maybe not everybody does need a halftime week, right? Maybe that's my, my neuro atypical me. I
Tiffany(32:51):

(02:07):
Think everybody needs a halftime week really ourselves. Yeah.
Ginelle(32:56):
Yeah. So what happens now in the room? Like I can, I never believed I was very skeptical that I would have in the times of grad school. It was also very burnout, right? Working full-time, doing the classes and the work, right? Very hard. I was like, how do people actually think up their question before it's their time to speak? Like, and the amount of like cognitive struggle and delay of burnout and of fatigue is so real that we don't even know necessarily that it's happening to us. Like I, I just, I thought that was just me, but that was probably the impact of being too tired for too long. So now as maybe I'm also getting better at what I do, but like I can take the training that I've been taking in over the years in analytic, like modern analytic study and process group.
Ginelle(33:44):
Like I can think about a question that's coming next on purpose. And I know that that is like the, it's, it's everything though. It may be like something people take for granted and maybe they're different from me, but I, I got to have that like question answered because of the space that I get and I can actually feel in integrity with the questions I'm asking and not like I'm flying by the seat of my pants while a session is going on. Or like, I'm freezing when it's my turn to speak because I'm overloaded. And again, I was very new when I was experiencing that, but still, yeah, I don't get it anymore and I can be a lot more intentional.
Tiffany(34:27):
You also mentioned a process group or a group. You're in modern analytics, so you also, is that a like a clear, a peer group or a consultation group you're in?
Ginelle(34:36):
It? It was so it started in that 2019 range and went for three and a half years, I think, before enough people started having changes and, and broke off. But yeah, it was really neat to be learning from analy analytic thinkers and then interacting with you. So there was like, I was getting the things you were saying and I was also learning on the side around just the way that practice happens in modern analytic psychotherapy. So yeah, it was like a really nice long term container for clinical, like just work shopping basically, and theory and history. Yeah, it was like really expensive and a good compliment to postgraduate like, I don't know, supervision and learning how to do this craft
Tiffany(35:23):
So expansive. And I'm, again, thinking about someone who's seeing 30 people a week, maybe they're in, maybe they're in consultation groups, but if they are, it's it's certainly hard to actually be taking in, thinking clearly being intentional about what they're learning, how they're applying it, how they're using themselves as a tool in the therapy room. I imagine that's not really happening if you are, if, if one is stressed out, overwhelmed. I'm seeing a hundred people a month.
Ginelle(35:44):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. ,
Tiffany(35:46):
What are your fees now? What, you have a couple of of different structures too. Can you talk a little bit about how much you earn for what you do? Mm-Hmm.
Ginelle(35:52):
. Yeah, so I do basically 45 minute sessions for 1 95 and 60 minute sessions for 2 25. I let people choose, sometimes people keep it flexible and we ask at the 45 minute mark, do you wanna keep going? And it's been that way for two years. I got to the end of the first year of that and I was like, I'm sticking, I'm gonna stick with it. Because I felt honored and pleased by the investment people were making and the, like, the, the longevity of their cases was fine and stable. I felt like I was hitting marks on a monthly basis and not being tired, so I didn't feel the need to raise, like, I was like, okay, and I surpassed it, got to the nine K month and maybe had 10 at some point in the last year and then the hurricane.
Ginelle(36:45):
But yeah, so I do like to keep the space open for a four figure therapy offering, which is kind of like the intensive and therapy retreat for individuals. Like, I couldn't book one of those on the fly. If somebody called me and said, I need five days, I need three days of therapy this month. I could fit that in easily because my caseload is shaped how it's, and I could increase my income if I can find the, the marketing like engine to, to get the awareness out for these, these offerings. Like if people are calling, I've been experiment experimenting with Google ads and all kinds of things. So basically like I keep the space to bump the income on any given month by four figures if, if I get a call. So
Tiffany(37:34):
That's very cool. I love the, I love the vision there, the intention and the vision. You are working in such a way because you know, ultimately who you are and how you show up the kind of work you're doing and what your goal is. You're determined that pretty soon people are gonna be calling you for those three or five retreat days and you're gonna have the space for it. You've created the space, the spaciousness both in your schedule and in your mind before it, before it's here.

(02:28):
Ginelle(38:01):
Yeah.
Tiffany(38:01):
Wow. Yeah.
Ginelle(38:03):
And I got to do it one time so far a couple times and it's, it's good work. It's intentional and it's like, it's a different container and it's a different step outside of people's lives sometimes they travel to, to be here. Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty happy with like, the possibility of the alternate offering and to experiment with like what, what clinically can come from it. Yeah. Intensives are a little bit hot right now too. Yeah.
Tiffany(38:31):
Yeah. Very cool. What well, let's actually jump in. We have a, we have a, just a few, few more minutes. You mentioned this, we mentioned this at the top. You're in Marshall, North Carolina. Mm-Hmm. . It was just a hurricane there last month. The news cycle has moved on. Everybody's moving on. I just talked to Alison per, we talked regularly and, and she's telling me how much of the devastation is still there. So can you talk a little bit about how the hurricane impacted you and your community? Mm-Hmm. and what's happening even now, still on the ground a month later.
Ginelle(39:02):
Yeah, yeah. Yes. So you can't clear the number of trees that fell and that were washed through town in Asheville and other and other places in a month. Mm-Hmm. The devastation is still going to be sitting there waiting for whoever. And however, we're gonna move all of this stuff like nature and objects and manmade stuff like through every, it's just amazing to think about like what happens when a bunch of water flows through a society . So we would get to see this, this monstrous thing that took lives and took livelihoods and shifted a lot. And, and notice like, well, what happens in the wreckage? What happens in the aftermath when like, are you okay? Became the first question people asked each other, knowing each other or not upon first seeing people showed up for the most backbreaking and discussing of tasks like shoveling mud out of buildings that last week you were eating a burger in businesses that just opened last month are like flooded out now and need to rebuild again if they even have the resources. I've seen some like incredibly inspiring community stuff come from this kind of disaster. And that is not to minimize at all, all of the things that have also been lost and re-appreciate because of their loss. What aspects of the question am I forgetting now? ?
Tiffany(40:36):
That, that, that, that was my question. Like what's happening? What's continuing to happen there? That's a very real for your community that again, the rest of the world we've moved on or there's flooding in other areas like that. Just, it just, the lens has been turned off of you from the outside world. How has, how has the way you have shaped your practice and the way you have set yourself up as compared to, you know, 2019, how has that allowed you to show up? How has that come through Mm-Hmm. in how you're showing up in this current disaster?
Ginelle(41:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I I'm like ending up grateful that my schedule was already condensed. And that now to bring it full circle and to like re-address, like, where is my husband at, right? Because this is a whole picture of like, who's subsidizing the work, is like also my whole household. Hmm. So he gets to be reactivated into his endeavors of like business ownership and like get up and go. That may have been more fearful 'cause he wasn't doing his money mindset work or so like we've experienced like an accelerant of progress in our household around like knowing everybody in town and being the one who shoveled out their buildings. And it's, it's, it's been possible because I know that I can work Monday and Wednesday and he can have the time. And it's been an adjustment for me that I'm like, well, where is my partner?
Ginelle(42:01):
Where is my stay-at-home Dad? But also that it brought us to another level of like, okay, I guess it's time for a little bit of childcare. And we've experienced finally for the first time this half day of childcare, and I may or may not have part-time nanny support starting next week, which if you know me right, , like, you know, that was a fantasy and a desire years ago when I also really needed it and realize that not everyone accesses childcare. So, you know, it is it, yeah, it's just been like wonderful to be self-employed and also very vulnerable to be self-employed when everybody who pays you. Not everybody who pays you, but like lots of people who pay you have some kind of impact to their livelihood and interruption to income. But yeah, it's, it's, it's rough and raw down here. There's people like still like, showering in community showers and trucks at the library, you know? It's really like the water is not water in Asheville. Fortunately we're on well water and I don't know. It's just like there's a, there's a lot of rebuilding of what you take to be normal in modern society that we are not having, that a lot of people are not having so very awakening eye opening and, and empathy producing basically, like this is also like less than a 10th of what's happening overseas too. Yeah.
Tiffany(43:36):
All kinds of different perspectives. And when you're being impacted by it, you feel it. Mm-Hmm. , regardless of what else is happening in the rest of the world, it really has an impact on you, your family or community. Good. And obviously the bad. Yeah. Let's say again, at the time this comes out, I imagine folks who are listening are going to still be navigating external and internal crises that feel this was too big, or I'm alone with it. The rest of the world seems like they're moving on and I feel paralyzed or stuck in this place. How would, how would your retreat help them? Like thinking about someone actually flying to you, or maybe somebody who's already in North Carolina now and they're, they're like, I have the funds, I just don't know who to go to or how it's gonna help. Can you talk me through a little bit about who would be a good fit and, and how, what kind of transformation they're gonna go through with you?
Ginelle(44:24):
Yeah. I think basically what, what I like to think of an intervention, like a therapy retreat does, is it takes away all of the like, frameworks of everything that holds your normal day and therefore your normal like scaffolding of thoughts constant. So when all of a sudden you're not at home and you're not in front of your normal therapist, you're in front of this other therapist and you slept in a different bed last night, , and you maybe are alone from your family and like you did this on purpose, right? To like, to say, I think I need some space, I need some kind of change. I need to get out of here, right? You got to honor your flight response and to go to a different place so you could listen to yourself. So basically this is the function of the retreat is like, this is a space where you get to actually listen to yourself in a, in a brand new way without your context.
Ginelle(45:24):

(02:49):
So there is like the, the boiling down to like, well, what's what we get to ask like, what would five-year-old you have wanted for you now? And how close is your life to that? What did you survive between two and now to, to make it so this is where you landed and is that how you have to keep landing? So I work in that really long-term and really la large scope way with people like full life examination. And this is a short-term intervention, right? But I get to take in the story and I get to like ask those questions about what, what, what, what resulted in this and that makes sense that all is okay. And what power do you have? What power do you get to exercise, to begin shifting your life in a direction that feels doable and feels wantable and worth risks for?
Tiffany(46:21):
It sounds beautiful, just the con like even, even you've created a a, a context shakeup. They're in an entirely different context. I think about, you know, my stage with young children or your stage with young kiddo someone who is maybe up to breathe a little bit from having young children, therapists or someone, someone else who's listening to this and you are looking for a new context so they can come out here, be under the stars, be actually smelling the air, hearing the sounds, to just get out of the, what you said the day-to-day scripts. And then they get to sit with you, someone who's listening closely, closely to their story and hearing from them when they're out of this context and they actually have the space to have their different parts come out and be heard. Mm-Hmm. You facilitate that process to help them get clear about where they are now and where they want to go. Is that right?
Ginelle(47:12):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm, .
Tiffany(47:14):
Wow. Okay. Folks, folks are listening and they're like, I want some of that. How do I learn more? Where can people find you?
Ginelle(47:19):
And don't forget, like it's an integrative retreat, so it's not just us talking. We get to say you want a massage in the middle of day one. I'm bringing that therapist up, right? If you want a tarot reading or a reiki service or forest bathing session, we get to build that into your itinerary. So that's the fun
Tiffany(47:38):
that out. Wait, so back up, back up. Oh, how do folks decide, oh, here's what I want, or here's what feels good to me. How, how does it like choose your adventure? Talk a little bit through even that consultation process as you're talking with someone.
Ginelle(47:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's basically, I'd hope to eventually as a business owner have like a concierge go through those questions with somebody. But basically I, I, I run it myself and I ask like, what are the kinds of things that normally bring you your perspective and bring it back to yourself and what would be an ideal therapeutic day for you? Do you like to talk all day and do you have endless things to say and explore or do you need an interruption? Do you need body awareness, coping, grounding or a spiritual guide, right? Who can jump in and also add these like unconscious sort of stimulations to the process.
Tiffany(48:26):
That's very exciting. I also hear in there how you're pulling up, you're bringing in other providers. Mm-Hmm. . So you're supporting other business owners in your Oh,
Ginelle(48:32):
Yeah. I'm not massaging my clients at all. , thank goodness. I do not wanna do that .
Tiffany(48:38):
Really? Indeed. That's really neat. I can see the vision of where this is going and what it's gonna be ultimately as you start bringing people in to provide this very therapeutic experience to help experience a transformation with you.
Ginelle(48:50):
Yeah. And not with a bunch of strangers that they have to room with.

(03:10):
Tiffany(48:53):
Yeah. Okay. Where can people find you? How do they, how do they learn more? Get to know you.
Ginelle(48:57):
It is all at growth point collaborative.com and people can email me at Ginelle G-I-N-E-L-L [e-mail]. I have an Instagram, it's not active right now. Could be active whenever I decide to make it that way.
Tiffany(49:18):
What's your Instagram?
Ginelle(49:20):
It's at growth but collaborative.
Tiffany(49:22):
Beautiful. So we'll put the website, the email in the show notes below. So folks, if you're interested, no need to go type it all out. Just click below. You can go straight to Ginelle. Ginelle, final, final question. Actually, I'm taking this a little over. For the person who's listening right now and she's seeing 25 to 30 people a week, she is drowning a little bit, but also feels like this is just what one does. I don't have time to look up, I don't have time to breathe. What either strategic, tactical piece of advice do you have for her? Or even a mindset shift ting, something that could shake her up so that she can actually move to a place where she has ease and peace and freedom in her day to day?
Ginelle(50:01):
Yeah, it is. It ends up being about your worthiness of like your life, not being all about your employment or your work or your money gathering. So I am, I will admit to right, still being in a stage of getting this thing stable and abundant, right? Because I'm like into it and it's all good. I still have the energy. And it's worth investing right now on a business that like I want for the long term where I get to do special interesting things that are only possible because of my particular environment. And like the worthiness piece ends up being like, I, like everyone I serve deserve a a singular life that feels good.
Ginelle(50:57):
I, I have this tagline on my website that I eventually came up with. I don't know if it's resonating with everybody, but it's regaining the audacity to feel good in this world because it is your birthright to feel okay and or better or ecstatic to be a live human on this miraculous planet of, I don't know what happened to make this possible. And I think that we don't get to access those feelings and that awe when we're busy surviving. So the mindset shift is you are allowed to try and if you have the access to make the take some risks it's worth it.
Tiffany(51:36):
Have the audacity to feel good. You have the right and you deserve to feel good. Mm-Hmm, and end with that.Ginelle, thank you so much.
Ginelle(51:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Outro(51:54):
All right. Whatever you're doing, I want you to pause. If you're driving, pull over. If you're chopping a carrot, put that knife away. If you're making sweet love to a woman, Well, I mean that's, that's, that's kind of flattering in a weird way. Huh. You can go, you can just go ahead and you can keep doing that. But for the rest of you, if you learn even just one thing of value today, please share this episode with even just one therapist who could benefit from the message. Here's how, if you're listening on iTunes, click on the episode and you'll see a small purple circle with three dots. Click on those dots and you're gonna see the option to share at the bottom of the list. Click that, and you can just go ahead and share it on Facebook, or you can even just text it to one therapist who you know needs to hear it. If you're listening on Stitcher, just tap the triangle icon on the upper right corner. It's next to the menu that displays your upcoming playlist. You'll see the option to share the episode you're currently listening to right on Facebook. Look, it's time to get the word out. We gotta spread the message. Thank you so much, and we'll join each other again soon.