September 4, 2025 • 50 mins
To mark our 200th episode, we are taking you into Space to discover the benefits of microgravity for health and medical research and its real-world applications. Can we use space technology to advance medical discoveries to improve health here on earth? And should we be doing more to connect our life science sector innovators into Australia’s space research sector?
We meet leading Australian superstars working at the intersection of space and health technologies at MTPConnect SA’s Insights Series event “What’s Your Place in Space’, celebrating Australian Space Week in Adelaide.
Australia’s first astronaut, Katherine Bennell-Pegg, Director of Space Technology at the Australian Space Agency shares her view on why space matters, and the role of astronauts on the International Space Station as scientists in space. She reveals how biotech research in space using microgravity is revolutionising pharmaceutical development and unlocking treatments for cancer here on Earth.
Aerospace medicine specialist Dr Gordon Cable from Human Aerospace, is working on a spacesuit design program, developing compression garments that "trick" the body into thinking gravity exists, with applications for burns, lymphedema and post-surgical recovery.
Dr Richard Harvey from the ARC Centre of Excellence in Plants for Space explains how the international research consortium is engineering smart plants in space labs, that operate as programmable biological factories for biomolecule synthesis, to produce pharmaceuticals, including compounds that protect against radiation and improve cancer therapies.
And Tiffany Sharp from Cambrian Defence and Space discusses launching medical research into space on a rocket in the Arctic circle - looking into the gut microbiome which shows how certain bacteria affecting anxiety and depression decline in microgravity, offering insights for mental health treatments.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the MTP Connect podcast, connecting you
with the people behind thelife-saving innovations driving
Australia's growing lifesciences sector from bench to
bedside for better health andwell-being.
Mtp Connect acknowledges thetraditional owners of country
that this podcast is recorded onand recognises that Aboriginal
(00:23):
and Torres Strait Islanderpeoples are Australia's first
storytellers and the holders offirst science knowledge.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Caroline Jewell, andwelcome to our 200th episode.
To mark this special milestone,we're taking you to Adelaide
for Space Week to connect withleading Australian experts
working at the intersection ofspace and human health
innovations.
What are the benefits ofmicrogravity for health and
(00:53):
medical research and itsreal-world applications, and can
we use space technology forhealth needs here on Earth?
We'll be talking withAustralia's first astronaut,
catherine Bernal-Pegg, who isDirector of Space Technology for
the Australian Space Agency, aswell as Tiffany Sharp from
Cambrian Defence and Space, drRichard Harvey from the ARC
(01:15):
Centre of Excellence in Plantsfor Space and aerospace medicine
specialist, dr Gordon Cablefrom Human Aerospace.
Here to tell us more isCatherine Bunnell-Pegg,
australian astronaut andDirector of Space Technology for
the Australian Space Agency.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm Catherine Bunnell-Pegg, australian
astronaut at the AustralianSpace Agency.
I'm an engineer by background.
I've worked as a space engineerfor about the last 15 years,
working on rockets andsatellites and space stations,
and more compelling missionsthan I could have ever hoped for
, and you also have a I'd callit an official title at the
(01:53):
Australian Space Agency.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
What's?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
that Well, Astronaut and Director of Space Technology
.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Tell me a little bit more about the intersection
between space technology andhealth technology.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, there's so many intersections between space
technology and health technology.
Yeah, there's so manyintersections between space
technology and health technologyand, on astronaut training, I
was absolutely blown away by thebreadth and the depth of this.
I didn't even do biology inyear 11 or year 12, so I had a
real baptism of fire there.
But to start with, you know,space is a place, space is
ultimately an eye in the skyfrom which we can see phenomenon
(02:25):
around the world and from upthere we can see so much air
pollution or indicators forpollen movements to warn people
with health issues about this asit's being forecasted, or
predicting disease outbreakslike malaria, from where
mosquitoes might be breedingbecause of weather mosquitoes
might be breeding because ofweather and what you can see
from this high point in space,you can connect and that allows
(02:47):
you to do things liketelemedicine and telerobotic
surgery.
And what you can connect fromup there you can inform, like
with GPS, for example, whichallows for tracking and
monitoring of runs on Strava or,more importantly, for dementia
patients, where they might belocated or ensuring appropriate
transport of drugs and thequality of the environment
(03:09):
they're transported in, liketemperature and humidity.
And there's the spinouts, likeeven the big, beautiful space
telescopes with pure scienceobjectives have helped with
things like MRI and CT scan.
Technology developments andlaser developments in space
contributed to laser eye surgery, but, most critically, I think
(03:29):
the health outcomes on earthhave been advanced by putting
humans in space, particularly onthe International Space Station
, which is a huge space station109 meters across, is almost as
big as a soccer field, and it'sbeen operating up there for more
than 25 years with people on itthat whole time different
people, but people on it thatwhole time and basically, as
(03:52):
astronauts, we study sciences,health sciences and life
sciences and various forms ofbiology, because we're
scientists in the sky, or,probably more accurately, lab
techs in the sky with the handsand the eyes of our country
scientists on the ground upthere.
In fact, 70 to 80 percent of anastronaut's time in space is
usually on microgravity sciences, of which health is a huge part
(04:14):
.
Plus, our bodies are medicalguinea pigs in space, right
because of how the body respondsto the space environment,
especially weightlessness ormicrogravity.
Um, so many systems of the bodychange.
Every system of the body isaffected and it's often affected
in a way that is like aaccelerated disease on earth.
(04:35):
So if you didn't exercise fortwo hours a day in space, you'd
lose bone mass at six to seventimes the rate of a
postmenopausal unmedicated woman, which is, for astronauts, one
to 2% of bone mass a month.
And so we test subjects forosteopenia, so diseases like
osteoporosis, and it's animportant reminder for me that
(04:57):
the human body respondsdifferently if you're male or
female to many of theseconditions, and it's an
important reason why we need tohave more women being astronauts
.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Wow, it's great to hear that, that we need more
representation of both sexes inspace.
Is that why space matters?
Because it's about, once youthink about humans on Earth, you
need to consider the alternateatmosphere around Earth and our
place in it yeah, I mean, Ithink ultimately, space is about
(05:31):
the future, right like.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
It's about protecting and monitoring our planet and
all of us on it to improve ourquality of life, and it's also
to create economic opportunityand complexity and basically to
contribute to big globalchallenges like climate change
and others.
If you look at the unitednations sustainable development
goals, space is fundamentallyrelevant to every single one of
(05:55):
those and helping to address it,and that's because we got there
to make discoveries we can'tdown here with gravity and the
atmosphere in the way.
So it's not just new pharma upthere, it's new medical devices,
it's psychology and adaption tonew environments, it's
antimicrobial materials, and thelist goes on.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You are a huge believer in the medical and
scientific advances that can bemade from experiments conducted
in space.
What sort of biotech researchis going on up there in space
right now?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well, right now on the International Space Station
they have the crew calledExpedition 73, and that's got
seven crew on it and right now Ilooked up what they were doing.
Yesterday and yesterday theywere maintaining their muscles
and monitoring their health astop research priorities.
So basically, experimentsincluded electric muscle
(06:50):
stimulation in combination withexercising.
So they had two astronautsworking together, one with these
electric stimulation devicesand another one with various
monitoring devices to see howtheir body was responding things
like sensor-packed headbandsand vests and breathing
apparatuses.
The day before there was afocus on the heart and the
(07:11):
nervous systems adaptation toweightlessness, using an
ultrasound for heart scans, forexample, up there.
And then virtual reality wasused to study how an astronaut's
nervous system and sense ofbalance can adapt, and those
kinds of research outcomes caninform recovery on earth for
people that have had injuries orhad strokes.
(07:32):
And they're part of what'scalled the cipher suite of 14
different human researchexperiments going on up there
now 14.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
yeah gee, I've never thought about that sort of
research going up on the ISS.
I always, you know, see itgoing across the sky and I think
they're just doing things likechemical analysis of the
environment and, you know,weather patterns and star
searching and Incredible Everyfield of science is relevant.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Every technology readiness level is relevant.
It's an absolutely remarkablepiece of infrastructure for
science, and the astronauts upthere are just the visible tip
of the iceberg of thousands ofresearchers working on these
important, nutty challenges onthe ground.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
One of the biggest challenges is that humans face,
of course, is cancer.
What can you tell us about howthe space environment could help
in terms of finding treatmentsfor cancer?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, cancer research has been one of the priority
topics of the InternationalSpace Station and there's a
number of ways that it is beinginvestigated.
Ultimately, the researchpathways in space come down to
the environment, microgravity.
So in microgravity you canthink of it like there being no
up or down, which means if youthink of a beaker full of a
solution, there's no bottom ortop, which means heavy things
(08:49):
don't go to the bottom, lightthings don't go to the top, so a
solution can be more uniform.
We also don't have an up ordown, so heat doesn't create
heat driven convection, so youhave less fluid mixing and we
also allow for, because thingsfloat, nothing drops to the
bottom of a flask or has to growin 2D, it's 3D environments
without container interactions.
(09:11):
So with all that combined itmeans surface tension and
diffusion dominate At thecellular level.
We now know that many cellsdetect gravity because they have
sedimentation and buoyancymechanisms within the cells.
So we've seen that human cellsoften age faster, which lets us
do accelerated ageing research.
(09:31):
We know in space that you cangrow spheroids or clusters of
cells, organoids, andinvestigate, say, hypoxic cells
in the middle of clusters moreclosely resembling a tumour.
So you can look at themechanism on complex tumours,
particularly complex 3D tumours.
So one example is the UK SpaceAgency has recently funded an
(09:54):
investigation into diffusedmidline glioma, which is a brain
cancer In fact the brain cancerNeil Armstrong's daughter
unfortunately passed away fromand that's because it can grow
in 3D in space and you canunderstand it Looking at those
effects.
What happens in space iscrystals grow larger, more
purely, more uniformly and moreslowly, and that means you can
(10:18):
have big crystals grow, whichcan be protein crystals or metal
crystals or pharmaceuticalcrystals, and that helps us to
understand what we're doingbetter on Earth.
So on Earth, most crystals thatare protein-based there's
hundreds we can't see with ourmicroscopes.
They're too small.
So it's been used to advancetreatments into diseases.
(10:41):
One example is Merck's Keytrudaimmunotherapy cancer drug.
They've been on the spacestation and learned so much
about their drug up there.
Two main things the first isthey were able to decouple
different effects liketemperature and sedimentation
and create a more suitableproduct, and so they've been
(11:04):
able to apply that understandingto earth-based processes to
improve them on the ground.
The second is that the solutionin microgravity was viscous,
which means by replicating thatit could actually be created.
In a way it could be asubcutaneous injection rather
than 30 minutes in an IV bag.
And if you think what that meanson the ground, practically that
(11:25):
means patients don't have tosit in a hospital setting to
have this drug.
They can live in more rural andremote areas, they don't have
to travel interstate or even, insome cases, between countries.
So it can change millions oflives.
And that's for one drug.
But the process that they'velearnt in fact applies to many
kinds of that type of drug.
(11:46):
So it's actually been predictedby Sierra Space that advances
in cancer treatments andtechnologies for diagnosis in
microgravity could in factreduce cancer mortality globally
by 1%, already worth half atrillion dollars if you look at
(12:07):
it from an economic standpoint.
And the list goes on and on.
There's diagnostic devicesusing bubbles that are being
developed, and so on.
I'm really proud to be part ofthis industry that is working on
this.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And what do you think about the opportunities for the
Australian space industry andour life sciences sector to work
more closely together toimprove human health?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Well, we've got a really broad and thriving
domestic biotech sector here inAustralia and are a really
globally recognised hub for lifescience innovation, not just
for humans, but also agricultureand horticulture and other
kinds of biology and, as wellwith that strong focus on
research, commercialisation andcoupled with that, we have an
(12:47):
emerging space sector with itsown strengths.
So here in South Australiawe're a unique destination for
launch and returns.
We've had the first commercialspace capsule returning to a
commercial spaceport anywhere inthe world here recently in the
red dirt of Western SouthAustralia.
Avada is the company that'slanding into Southern Launch,
which is a South Australiancompany, and that's been backed
(13:11):
up with multiple returns withinweeks.
And Vata's just had theirSeries C raise of 187 million US
dollars, which is showinginvestors are backing this
market, and one of their landershad pharmaceutical products on
it.
So the ground is shifting whenwe have advantages.
We're now one of seven spaceagencies to have trained and
qualified an astronaut for theISS, yes, and so we've got new
(13:35):
access and insights into thisworld, even just through the
training so far alone, I think.
So with that considered, wealso need to look at the
timeliness of the opportunity toget involved.
The International Space Stationis currently planned to go out
to 2030, so it's coming to thesunset of its life, but there's
still opportunity to utilise it.
(13:55):
In the meantime.
There are commercial spacestations in development, there
are these capsules, and it's agreat time to get in on the
ground floor to see what ourrole here is.
And Australia does have someexcellent discrete examples
already of researchers usingmicrogravity.
We're hearing about them todayon the panel and from the other
(14:16):
people on this podcast, but wedon't yet have a big central
activity around it.
Across the country, it's morediscrete research occurring and
it's a bit of a blind spot, tobe honest, I think, for
Australia.
If people aren't aware thatmicrogravity is a laboratory in
space, being the largest part,but there's also facilities on
ground, then we're not makingthe use of it and taking all the
(14:39):
opportunities.
So I hope to make people awareof this as an opportunity for
their research and theirapplications.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Fantastic.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast, Catherine, and for
sharing your passion andenthusiasm and the opportunities
that are out there forAustralian life sciences sector
researchers, innovators andscientists.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Thank you.
I have so much to learn on thistopic too, so I look forward to
the exchanges.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I'm Dr Gordon Cable.
I'm a specialist in aerospacemedicine.
I've made a whole career ofthat, really working for the Air
Force in high-performancemilitary aviation, and then
latterly got really interestedin space, I guess as a result of
that background.
So for the last 15 years or soI've been very keen to explore
what Australia is doing in space, life sciences and medicine,
(15:26):
promoting that, producingcourses and training in that
field for people who areinterested in doing that sort of
thing.
So yes, my background ismedicine, medically trained,
specializing in aerospacemedicine, and now working
predominantly for my own company, human Aerospace, as a head of
flight medicine.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Welcome Gordon, it's great to have you on the podcast
.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Thanks, carolyn.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So you're interested in space medicine, and so are we
, which is why we're here todayto talk about this fascinating
area.
What does space medicine meanand what does it involve?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Well, goodness me how much time.
It really depends on from whichperspective you look at that.
I mean, space medicine is aboutkeeping humans safe and well
and alive in a reallychallenging environment.
So it's about human spaceflightand making sure that the people
who go to space are fit andwell and also developing
countermeasures to counter theextreme environment they're in.
(16:16):
So I guess that's one side ofit.
I mean, the other side of it isyou know what we can do in
terms of medical research inspace?
I mean, once we get humans upthere and we can get payloads
into space, what can we learn inthat microgravity environment
that we can't learn on Earthbecause the environment is so
different?
And we can do a whole bunch ofdifferent medical research
projects which we just can't doon Earth.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Tell me about the biomedical aspects of
spaceflight and that environment.
Why is it so different?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Well, the GWI.
Again, there are many aspectsto that.
I guess, focusing on theelements which are most relevant
to the work that we do at HumanAerospace, it's the
microgravity environment.
I think that's most important.
We could talk all day about allthe different environmental
challenges, even radiation andso on, but microgravity the way
that it affects bones andmuscles bones waste away,
muscles waste away unlessthey're loaded and exercised.
(17:05):
The vestibular system, which isthe body system that looks after
your balance and posture andlocomotion, that becomes more
adapted to a microgravityenvironment than Earth.
So that means that when youcome back to Earth or you land
on the Moon or Mars, you can'tbalance and walk and move about
as well.
And finally, there's thecardiovascular issues, which is
(17:26):
what we're primarily focusing onat the moment with human
aerospace.
That's, looking at what happensto blood pressure when you
return from a microgravityenvironment.
How do you support that?
How do you prevent the dramaticfalls that can sometimes occur
in blood pressure when you comeback from space?
And preventing using differentsuit technologies that we might
talk about later to try andprevent some of the
(17:47):
cardiovascular effects ofmicrogravity, even while you're
in space?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
try and prevent some of the cardiovascular effects of
microgravity, even while you'rein space.
So the challenges that peopleface when they go into space,
for instance on safe spacemissions you're trying to
maintain some sort of likestandard body operation that you
would normally have on Earth.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
That's right.
So the suits, for example, aretrying to trick the body into
thinking that gravity is stillacting in this really
challenging environment.
It's funny.
I mean, microgravity is anextreme environment, but humans
are incredibly adaptablecreatures and it isn't very long
and, as you know, astronautswho go to space you see them
flying around like superman orwoman in the space station.
I mean, it doesn't take themlong to get used to that and
(18:26):
they're moving around like it'snot a problem.
But it's the gravity transitionthat's the problem.
It's the getting to space andadapting to that and they're
moving around like it's not aproblem, but it's the gravity
transition that's the problem.
It's the getting to space andadapting to that, but then it's
coming home again andre-adapting to that.
So it's the transitions ofgravity that are a big problem
for the astronauts.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Tell us about some of this technology that you're
working on.
It's a spacesuit design program.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Not exactly the spacesuits that your audience
may be familiar with, becausebecause I think when people
think of spacesuits they thinkof the extravehicular activity
suits, the big puffy white gaspressurized suits that we move
around in, you know, outside theInternational Space Station,
for example.
But we're working onintravehicular activity suits,
IVA suits which can be worn,probably periodically they're a
(19:08):
bit uncomfortable to wearconstantly, but the idea is to
have a suit that is loading thebody both axially and radially,
and loading it such that itmimics the effect of gravity on
the tissues and tricks the body,tricks the muscles and bones
into thinking that gravity isacting.
So we've been looking at fromthree aspects.
We've originally startedlooking at it from a bone
(19:28):
protection point of view, toload up the body to try and
prevent the loss of calcium frombones that occurs in space,
similar to what happens in olderpatients with osteoporosis.
But then we realized that NASAhas almost cracked that problem
and we moved on to something alittle bit more relevant to them
, which was the neurovestibularthing I mentioned before.
So using the suits to try andprovide what we call a
(19:51):
proprioceptive input, that meansmaking the bones and joints and
muscles think that gravity isacting, so that it gives it a
vertical reference.
In an environment where thereis no vertical reference,
there's no up or down inmicrogravity.
So it's to try and trick thebody into that feeling that
sense that gravity is acting, sothat the balance system is
maintained, and also adding someresistive elements to movement
(20:13):
in the suit so that when youmove your limbs you feel like
you're moving against gravity.
Once again it's the muscleinput into the brain saying OK,
gravity is acting in aparticular direction and it
might actually help maintain thereflexes that we need.
The main problem with nothaving those reflexes if we do
go eventually to Mars afterseven or eight months in
microgravity, what happens toastronauts who are completely
(20:34):
deconditioned?
and can't walk a straight lineor can't get up and move rapidly
and quickly and use theirmuscles as they normally do.
If the spacecraft has to beevacuated quickly, for example,
how do they do that?
So there's a lot of work goingon in that space at NASA at the
moment as well, but hopefullythis suit can contribute.
And finally, the cardiovascularsuits, looking at the
(20:56):
maintenance of blood pressure onreturn to Earth.
We call those orthostaticintolerance garments.
We've come up with a better,more adjustable design for that,
because the body changes inmicrogravity as your muscles,
waste and fluids move.
Suits that are tailored to fitbefore you go to space aren't
going to fit when you come home.
So we've come up with a way ofadapting the fit to better apply
the pressures required andtogether with that, using some
(21:20):
thigh cuff designs, so puttingalmost like a tourniquet around
the cuff to trap some fluid inthe lower limbs to prevent that
shift of fluid up towards thehead that occurs in microgravity
.
So there's been a number ofaspects that we've been looking
at and it's the same technologywe've been able to apply in
those three different ways, andso these suits are made of all
different materials.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They're designed differently, they could be worn
at different times, during aspace mission, for instance.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yes.
Well, for the example, with thesomatosensory suit, as we call
it, the one that gives you thatproprioceptive input, you know
we were thinking that, and thiswas where more research is
required to figure out what isthe appropriate dosing schedule.
You know, we wouldn't possiblyimagine that astronauts would
want to wear this thing 24 7.
So our thought would be that asyou approach destination, you
would increase the, the weartime and frequency to start to
(22:07):
redevelop those reflexes thatyou need once you arrive at your
destination.
But there's still a lot of workto do on exactly what that
dosing would look like.
One of the funny things that wenoticed with these suits is that
we thought, oh, wouldn't it begreat to wear them while you're
asleep, because it just sort ofhappens automatically and you
don't even know, but it'sactually.
You can't wear them when you'resleeping.
You can't sleep Because it putspressure on the soles of your
feet so that the gravity load issort of acting downwards and
(22:31):
the straps around the bottom ofyour feet that hold it all
together makes you feel likeyou're standing up.
And who can sleep standing up?
Speaker 5 (22:36):
unless you're a horse .
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So I mean humans don't really do that very well.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
So how do you think this type of technology, which
sounds incredibly complex, couldbe used here on Earth to help
with sort of health conditions,for instance, or health
challenges?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think earth to help with sort
of health conditions, forinstance, or health challenges,
absolutely, and I think that'sone of the most important things
about space research.
It's it's, you know, takingtechnology to space to help
space fairers, but it's thetranslational benefits on earth
for health care.
That's really, I think, ourmain drive in some ways to get
this.
You know this technologydeveloped, it's already being
used.
Compression garments arecurrently used in athletics.
(23:09):
High performance athletes usethem for recovery and
performance maintenance.
But we foresee an applicationof these technologies in burns
patients, in patients withlymphedema, post-surgical
recovery, venous thrombosis andembolism prevention and a whole
range of different applications,even after plastic surgery.
(23:31):
Sometimes there's actuallystudies showing also that people
on the autism spectrum, withdisabilities that have some
mobility issues, have benefitfrom compression garment
technologies as well.
So there's a range of differentthings that we could look at in
the future that might bebeneficial to healthcare.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Should we be doing more to connect our life science
or life science sectorinnovators into Australia's
space research sector?
Are we doing enough of that?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Probably no.
I mean, I think one of thethings I learned and actually I
should say, before I mentionthis, I'd spent a little bit of
time working and helping out atthe space agency a few years ago
when we were putting together aspace medicine and life
sciences roadmap and one of thethings I found doing that and
reaching out to researchers andpeople working in different
(24:20):
medical fields around thecountry.
A lot of people were working onprojects that were relevant to
space and they didn't even knowit.
You know, I'd hear of peopledoing things and it wasn't until
I actually chatted to them andsaid well, do you realise that
that might be useful technologyon the space station?
The classic example I use thereis actually one of the
(24:41):
companies in Adelaide that Italk to makes micro-CT scanners.
Now, this scanner is the size ofa hula hoop, if you know how
big.
That is right, it's designed tosit in the back of an ambulance
or in the back of an RFDSaircraft, but it's the size of a
hula hoop and it's a CT scanner.
The aim of that was to actuallydiagnose stroke very quickly,
because the sooner you diagnosestroke and administer the
treatment, you can, you know,cause or really create a much
(25:04):
better benefit for the patient.
So I looked at that and Ithought that there is no such
thing as a CT scanner in spaceright now.
But it's portable, it's small,it's designed for travel and,
assuming they sort out the power, weight, volume, radiation
issues associated, to have a CTscanner in space, on the moon or
on deep space missions would bean incredible advantage.
(25:25):
At the moment, the onlyradiological imaging that could
be done on the space station isultrasound.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So already there's some potential there for some
Australian technology that'sright, I mean, that's just one
example.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I would be talking to companies making medical
technologies all over the placewho suddenly had an aha moment
when I said did you realise,have you talked to NASA, have
you actually explored the spaceapplication of this?
And hopefully some of thosefolks I spoke to went on to do
that.
I haven't worked there at theagency for some time, but I
would hope that some of thattechnology is being looked at
(25:57):
for that application.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Fantastic.
So what's next for humanaerospace?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Well, that's a very good question.
We are reliant for the researchon grants, as so many people
are, and getting grant fundingis really difficult at the
moment to continue the work thatwe're doing.
So we're exploring thoseoptions.
But to sort of pivot into adifferent direction, I've also
been looking at developing somecourses in aerospace medicine
(26:24):
and space medicine, shortcourses which can be delivered
online that Human Aerospace iscurrently working on to try and
in a similar way to you knowwhat you're doing here, with
podcasts, providing education toa cohort of people out there.
I think this is what we want todo with human aerospace to try
and bring aerospace medicine tothe industry, to the aerospace
industry, to anybody who wantsto know about how humans you
(26:47):
know human physiology behaves inspace or behaves in the
aviation environment.
We want to try and get thatinformation out there, because
there seems to be a hunger forinformation on that and there
aren't many courses available inAustralia that provide that.
That's another direction we'relooking at right now, as well as
the research side.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
And you know, I've never thought about how a human
is really developed specificallyto operate on Earth.
And then what happens to that,that whole you know biology
system up in space?
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Well, exactly right, and this is a really interesting
question.
When it comes to potential, youknow, habitation permanently on
other planets, on other worlds.
If we, for example, develop,you know, a human outpost on
Mars and people start to developa whole colony there, start to
develop a whole colony there weknow very little about human
(27:33):
reproduction in the spaceenvironment to be able to
populate another world and carryon the human condition in
another way, as it were.
But what about childrendeveloping in that environment?
As you say, we are designed todevelop on Earth Embryologically
.
We need that 1G environment.
For example, in the way thatthe neural tube develops in the
embryo and the way that thebones and muscles develop in
young children, the epiphysesand so on are reliant upon
(27:57):
loading and gravity to fuse.
So what are future Mars humansgoing to look like, is my
question.
I'll leave that one hanging foreveryone to have a think about.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
What a great question .
To finish on, it's been anabsolute pleasure, gordon,
having you on the podcast today.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
To finish on, it's been an absolute pleasure,
gordon, having you on thepodcast today.
Thanks for coming.
Great that, carolyn.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Thanks, it's been a pleasure being here.
I'm Tiffany Sharp and I'm theCEO of Cambrian Defence and
Space.
My focus is on space researchand development.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Welcome to the podcast, Tiffany.
I understand that you believethat space is of service to
Earth.
I just would really love you tounpack that for us.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
A hundred percent.
Yes, everything that we do itreally has a focus on solving
complex problems to benefithumanity.
It just so happens thatmicrogravity presents the
ability to have a fast track.
Look into proliferation ofaging tissue cells or
proliferation of bacteria.
It also is a pristine, sterileenvironment.
(28:57):
The problem with not being ableto replicate on Earth what we
can do in microgravity is thatspeeding up process it would
have human ethical implicationsto you know.
Expect someone to have theirgut dysbiosis put into a
(29:20):
simulation and replicate mentalhealth issues, for example,
whereas we know with my researchin an astronaut twin study that
the astronaut that spent 365days in space had a particular
gut species reduction.
You can't really replicate thatethically back here on Earth.
(29:40):
And everything that we work onin microgravity is looking at
predominantly mental healthmitigating risk, predominantly
mental health mitigating risk.
This has applications in thedefence force, frontline
providers and also in optimalperformance.
So you could be looking at aMaranpa athlete to Olympians.
(30:01):
It all has applications thatfast tracks results.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And you're very interested in the impacts of
gravity on neurosciences, on theneural pathways and the brain
function Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Again, space is providing insights into
basically disease and ailmentstates that are problems here on
Earth.
So if you just think basicallyof astronauts, when they're in
the International Space Station,they have intracranial pressure
, international Space Station,they have intracranial pressure
and what that can help us withif we're researching that in
(30:34):
space is TBI traumatic braininjury.
So a lot of my work focuses onmilitary and veteran defence
personnel, health and the impactof high blast and their work
environment, along with sportpersonnel.
Having this snapshot in spaceis able to give us ideas on how
(30:55):
we can mitigate that, whichagain fast tracks that ability
to have an application here onearth.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And you've recently been on an interesting research
journey I guess you'd call it upin the northern parts of the
world.
Can you tell us about this inSweden?
As I told my daughter at the,year farther Christmas.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Yes, it was very far north Arctic Circle.
There's a Swedish spacecorporation have a rocket base
out there.
They've been operating for over60 years and I was lucky enough
to get a pathway to spacethrough DLR, german Aerospace
and International Collaboration.
And I was looking at specificmicrobial behaviour in
(31:35):
microgravity and it's because ofthat astronaut twin study that
showed that there was a declinein a specific species that
impacts anxiety, depression andthe immune system From the gut
biome.
Yeah, so there was a declinefrom the, the astronaut that was
in space.
His twins remained on earth.
(31:55):
So it was a wonderful snapshoton all areas of gut microbiology
, uh, neuroscience and um,tissue cell and biology to see
how he's twin, all the tests atbaseline and post, uh, 365 days
in space compared to the twin onearth and it was that
difference in gut dysbiosis,that decline in that particular
(32:19):
gut species, that grabbed myattention and that twin study is
full of data and you have toreally crawl through it and my
experience in clinic as apracticing clinical nutritionist
.
I was utilizing a specific yeastto help postpartum women and
when I saw this decline in thisparticular species it was just a
(32:42):
hunch.
I thought this helped withmental health when I was working
in counseling centers Let mejust have a look at this and it
turned out that it can increasethis particular gut species by
up to 30% In terms of wellbeingor mental wellbeing, just the
species that's responsible forhaving that anxiety and that
(33:03):
depression and that inflammatoryresponse, neuromodulation
response.
So if we could then prove thattaking this in an extremely
hostile environment forlong-term space exploration
could mitigate worst case inmood, we would be looking at
something that we could utiliseon Earth For more than
(33:25):
postpartum and I have to admitthat I'm a bit of a maverick.
Back then it was over 10 yearsago.
In clinic practice, thisproduct is not well known to be
able to have this effect, soresearching it in space is going
to get the attention that itdeserves to be almost used like
a prophylactic and obviouslymental health.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It's a massive problem for the human race
really in terms of survival,looking at suicide rates
increasing and it has a hugeimpact on human life.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
A hundred percent and we're seeing hospital reports
where there's an increase inmental health cases and violence
, and also a very underservedmember of the community is women
in perimenopause and theirmental health, and if you can
find something that's over thecounter, well then it's going to
be of benefit to all.
(34:18):
And it could be as simple as wehave COVID the impact of
viruses on the gut health.
If we can restore that, wecould be looking at a mitigation
of worst case.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's really exciting to hear about this
valuable research that you'reundertaking, and do you think
that we need more of this typeof focused research in terms of
the human condition?
Speaker 6 (34:42):
A hundred percent, not just in focus of nutritional
neuroscience or mental health,but in terms of current medical
research, is looking ateverything in 2d.
Space is going to provide a 3dopportunity to fast track
throughout any research topicyou can basically think of.
So I think of an accelerationof any illness.
(35:05):
We're working with partners onantibiotic resistance,
antimicrobial resistance.
Space is that perfectenvironment because of that
proliferation of bacteria, timerelease, a novel agent.
All of a sudden, a losingbattle here with antibiotic
resistance on Earth.
We can get a snapshot of whatmay be able to counter that, and
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
That is really good news, because we know that AMR
is the next pandemic Globalissue.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, and it's multifaceted.
We're looking at agriculture,we're looking at the medical
community and we're reallyexcited with our partners.
They're outstanding researchers.
The novel product they'relooking at isn't the traditional
antibiotic route, somicrogravity provides the
perfect environment to be ableto demonstrate that capability.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What would you say to people that are out there in
the biotech, medtech space thatare keen to find out if their
research or their innovationscould be applied in a space or
microgravity environment?
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Come and talk to us and contact Cambrian Defence and
Space MTP Connect.
And contact Cambrian Defenceand Space MTP Connect.
We can definitely lead you intoa pathway to show whether we
can give you that pun intendedgiant leap and breakthrough in
your research, and a lot ofdifferent European companies and
pharmaceuticals are alreadyonto this.
(36:25):
The usual drug research takesover 10 years.
They're able to shorten thattime.
The financial incentive isthere but, more importantly,
saving lives in a fastertimeframe than what we have been
able to do.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, Tiffany, thank you very much for coming on the
podcast.
It's been a pleasure to talkwith you today.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
No, thank you and happy 200.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
So my name is Richard Harvey, I am the Chief
Operating Officer for the ARCCentre of Excellence in Plants
for Space, and my role is reallyto manage the operations of the
centre, manage our partnerships, but also to, I guess, help
with the strategic direction ofthe centre and ensure that our
research is having real worldimpact.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, I've noticed you're wearing a brooch on your
lapel and it's a beautiful red,blue and green sort of leafy
design.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Really Plants for Space.
It's really, I guess, at itscore about if, as humans, we're
going to go back out into thesolar system, to the moon and
then off to Mars, then we needto be thinking about how do we
support our health as humans,and we think plants are going to
be an important part of that,because it's going to be hard to
resupply and, um, you know also, you know we're going to think
(37:40):
about the health and thepsychological well-being.
So really what this is about isthe blue is the earth, the red
is mars and the leaf is kind oflike the rocket that's heading
from earth to mars, full ofplants 100 so it's obviously
around um not just foodproduction, but also production
of synthesis and and chemicalsas well in space.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Is that right?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
yeah, absolutely so.
Plants have a variety ofimpacts in terms of how they,
you know important they are forhere on earth.
What we're looking at is howyou can I push the boundaries of
what plants can do to supporthumans when they're a long way
from Earth.
And humans need food, we neednutrition.
Plants are also important forour psychological well-being.
I mean, it's a connection tohome.
(38:25):
It's, you know, astronauts onthe ISS.
They, one of their favouritethings to do in their leisure
time, which they don't have muchof, is to plants, because it's
it's an important connection tohome for them.
But what we're also looking atdoing aside from the food and
nutrition aspect, is can youalso design plants to produce
other essential compounds andmaterials?
Because you imagine you're along way from home.
(38:48):
You might need certainpharmaceuticals, you might need
other materials, like plastics,for example, and you're not
going to be able to bringeverything you're going to need
for an entire mission with you.
So can you produce them usingplants?
And so that's what we're doingis designing plants that could
then be.
You know, you could turn on andoff, using something like a
(39:09):
change in the wavelength oflight, to produce a particular
compound on demand when you needit.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So it's like a material that you're using.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
As a biomanufacturing platform, as a tool for
creating things.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So these plants are not really what we think of as
plants.
Like you're not taking a maidenhair fern or a eucalyptus
sapling, You're actuallycreating something totally new
that we've never seen before.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
Well, we're using existing plants, so we are
taking plants that people wouldbe familiar with, some more
familiar than others so, forexample, we're talking about
using it as a biomanufacturingplatform.
One of our favourite plants isa duckweed, which is basically a
very fastowing plant thatpeople might see in sort of
(39:55):
stagnant ponds, but it growsreally fast, and so if we can
genetically manipulate it toproduce compounds of interest,
then that's something that wouldbe quite useful to do, and
we're talking about in acontrolled environment, so that
also deals with some of theregulatory challenges.
But equally, we're also lookingat plants like tomatoes.
So how can we improve tomatoesfor those sorts of environments
(40:18):
as well, and strawberries aswell?
One of the things we've got tothink about is, if we're trying
to be really, really efficientwhich is something we want to do
here on Earth as well with ouragriculture then how do we make
the best use of the entire plant?
So we think of something like astrawberry, and you know at the
moment, and it's something likea strawberry and you know at the
moment, and it's a problem forthe strawberry sector is it
(40:40):
costs them money to dispose ofeverything but the strawberry
fruit itself.
So what we want to do is can weincrease the amount of fruit,
but then also can we increasethe nutritional value in the
other plant parts, whether it'sthe roots, whether it's the
leaves, and make use of that?
And that's obviously importantin space, where we've got to
(41:00):
make use of every last moleculewe bring with us.
But then on earth, if you're inthe strawberry industry and
you're not then having to dealwith the cost of disposing of
that material plus you've got aplant now that's more, you know
is optimised to grow in moreclimate resilient conditions,
then that's something thatthey're really excited about too
.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So are there currently plants up in space?
Have you got labs up there withplants?
Speaker 5 (41:27):
in them.
So we work.
You know, our space experimentsare often done through our
partners.
So we've got a closepartnership with NASA's crop
production team at the KennedySpace Centre in Florida and
there's an experiment that we'redoing right now.
So our team at the Universityof Western Australia is working
with them on some lettuce plantsthat were grown on the ISS and
(41:49):
what they were working out isbecause water behaves very
differently in space, so it isreally sticky.
So there's some really coolvideos in youtube where
astronauts grab a water-soakedsponge, they wring it out, but
the water just stays as a blobaround their hands.
Um, that's that can be a problemfor plants, because it
basically drowns them.
So they respond to that likethey're in a flooded paddock and
(42:10):
so then you try and withdrawthe water.
So it doesn't do that and youhave the opposite impact.
So what this project um that'sin the iss now or just sort of
completed in the iss now istrying to use some of the
advantages of how water behavesin space to to to look really
sort of um, deliberately atwater use in plants so better
(42:34):
understand how they can make youknow how they make use of water
, so that we can encourageplants to grow in ways that are
more you know, take up water andoxygen more efficiently, but
then also design water deliverysystems that could be used by
agriculture and horticulturalcompanies to sort of deliver as
minimal amount of water aspossible that the plant can use,
(42:56):
and that's something theindustry sees as being very
valuable.
Because, you know SouthAustralia, the last 12 months or
so is very low rainfall.
There's a lot of, you know,greenhouses that have relied
much more on mains water thanthey normally would, and that's
an enormous cost.
So there's a lot of importantinnovations from what's
happening in some of this workthat we're doing in space that's
(43:17):
very relevant to companies liketomato farmers down here on.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Earth.
You mentioned beforebiomanufacturing, or
pharmaceutical properties ofplants and how that could be
applied to health research andinnovation.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat area?
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Yeah, so what we've been doing is developing systems
, so basically gene circuits,where you can control the um,
you know, expression of genes ina very deliberate way so you
can turn things on and off, soyou can produce a compound you
want when you want it and whereyou want it in the plant.
And so that you know we'retrialing a whole bunch of
(43:57):
different things in that kind ofsystem, which would mean to say
, if you're in a remote part ofaustralia, for example, or mars,
and there is, you know, youcould have a plant that is
designed to produce fivedifferent compounds, but using a
very specific combination oftemperature, wavelength of light
, you can very deliberatelyinduce the expression and
(44:18):
production of a particularcompound, sort of on demand.
A very sort of interestingproject we're doing right now
that's very relevant to healthand medical research.
So we're working with ProfessorChris Sweeney at the South
Australian Immunogenomics CancerInstitute here in Adelaide
looking at the feverfew plant,which is like a daisy.
(44:38):
It produces something calledparthenolide which makes cancer
cells more susceptible toradiotherapy, but it also
protects healthy cells fromradiation, and so there's some
obvious applications for that onEarth in treating cancer.
But some of our partners thatare looking at sending humans
into space say that there's aobvious applications for that on
earth and treating cancer.
But some of our partners thatare looking at sending humans
into space say that there's alot more radiation, particularly
(45:00):
as you get further out, and sothere's some advantages to that
too.
So we're working with them toyou know, because this plant
doesn't grow that well in thefield and it can be a bit
unpredictable in terms of how itproduces this compound.
So in a controlled environment,under lights, in a vertical
farm, we're optimising thegrowth conditions of that so
(45:21):
that we can improve the yield,create stable product, but then
also look to maybe even put itinto other, faster growing plant
systems to really ramp up theproduction of that compound.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
And that could be something used to protect space
travellers in the future againstradiation.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
Yes, absolutely, as well as improve the efficacy of
radiotherapy for cancer patients.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
As a molecular biologist, you must be part of a
really large team at the ARC ofscientists working here in
Australia and around the world.
How exciting is it to be partof something that's sort of a
global innovation program.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
Oh look, it's incredibly exciting.
I mean, there's such breadth interms of what we're doing.
So the University of Adelaideis the lead, but there's another
four Australian universities,so Melbourne, la Trobe, western
Australia and flinders, andwe're sort of we're in our
second of seven years and sowe're building up to about a
standing load of about 200researchers.
So that's really exciting,bringing on new, often young,
(46:24):
people who are really passionateabout what they're doing and
excited particularly about thespace angle, because we've got a
lot of people that haven't comefrom a background where they've
traditionally been working inspace, a lot of them sort of in
plant science, food science, allthose sorts of areas.
But then in our wider networkof partners across government,
academia and industry we havesome really cool partners like
(46:45):
nasa, axiom, space, verticalfarming companies.
You know universities like uc,berkeley, uc, davis, cambridge,
um, and and sort of governmentagencies here in Australia as
well, but also sort of focus alot more on the sort of plant
science side of things.
But we also have people who areworking in sort of chemical
(47:05):
engineering, in psychology.
So how do people respond to newfoods?
Are they going to eat ourstrawberries if we change them?
What are the sensory kind ofconsiderations in terms of how
people perceive foods, and theneven um space law.
So, looking at some of theregulatory um aspects, so these
are things that have not beendone before.
(47:27):
So there are a lot offrameworks that don't really
even exist in terms of how youyou know you deal with some of
these issues and, like ethicalissues, around gene
transformation and things likethat.
Yeah, the ethics of all of thatis really important.
So it's not just a case of canwe do it, but what should we do?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
And what's the impact of what we do?
Speaker 5 (47:45):
if we do it Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And so your dream for the ARC?
What would it be if you had onething that you hope comes true
from the research that you'reworking on?
Speaker 5 (47:58):
Oh look, I mean I'd hate to speak for 200 people
that we'll have on the centre,but I think that what I would
hope you know to see is some newplant varieties that NASA are
looking to take or areconsidering at least taking into
space as part of an actualmission.
(48:19):
So we'll obviously haveexperiments with them, but
looking further than justexperiments, something that's
actually useful, but then alsobeing able to stand next to a
tomato farmer in the AdelaidePlains and talking about how the
work that we have done ishelping improve the
sustainability of their business.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Well, we're going to be watching with interest and
thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
It's been fantastic.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
It's a pleasure.
This podcast was recorded inAdelaide for MTP Connect's South
Australian Insight Series eventwhat's your Place in Space, to
celebrate Australian Space Week.
For this 200th episode, here isa shout out to all of the
fantastic MTP Connect team whohave helped to make the series
(49:05):
such a success To our CEO,stuart Dignam, who created this
podcast back in 2019, and ourformer team member, shannon
Osren, who contributed to theshow.
Thanks also to our verytalented editor and producer,
natalie vella, for herdedication to every episode.
And as the host of the podcast,it's my absolute pleasure to
(49:25):
bring you australian stories ofinnovation from the life
sciences sector 65 000 downloadsso far and many more to come.
5,000 downloads so far and manymore to come.
You've been listening to theMTP Connect podcast.
This podcast is produced on thelands of the Wurundjeri people
here in Narm, melbourne.
Thanks for listening to theshow.
(49:46):
If you love what you heard,share our podcast and follow us
for more Until next time.
This is the MTP Connect podcast, connecting you
with the people behind thelife-saving innovations driving
Australia's growing lifesciences sector from bench to
bedside for better health andwell-being.
Mtp Connect acknowledges thetraditional owners of country
that this podcast is recorded onand recognises that Aboriginal
(00:23):
and Torres Strait Islanderpeoples are Australia's first
storytellers and the holders offirst science knowledge.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Caroline Jewell, andwelcome to our 200th episode.
To mark this special milestone,we're taking you to Adelaide
for Space Week to connect withleading Australian experts
working at the intersection ofspace and human health
innovations.
What are the benefits ofmicrogravity for health and
(00:53):
medical research and itsreal-world applications, and can
we use space technology forhealth needs here on Earth?
We'll be talking withAustralia's first astronaut,
catherine Bernal-Pegg, who isDirector of Space Technology for
the Australian Space Agency, aswell as Tiffany Sharp from
Cambrian Defence and Space, drRichard Harvey from the ARC
(01:15):
Centre of Excellence in Plantsfor Space and aerospace medicine
specialist, dr Gordon Cablefrom Human Aerospace.
Here to tell us more isCatherine Bunnell-Pegg,
australian astronaut andDirector of Space Technology for
the Australian Space Agency.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm Catherine Bunnell-Pegg, australian
astronaut at the AustralianSpace Agency.
I'm an engineer by background.
I've worked as a space engineerfor about the last 15 years,
working on rockets andsatellites and space stations,
and more compelling missionsthan I could have ever hoped for
, and you also have a I'd callit an official title at the
(01:53):
Australian Space Agency.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
What's?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
that Well, Astronaut and Director of Space Technology
.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Tell me a little bit more about the intersection
between space technology andhealth technology.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, there's so many intersections between space
technology and health technology.
Yeah, there's so manyintersections between space
technology and health technologyand, on astronaut training, I
was absolutely blown away by thebreadth and the depth of this.
I didn't even do biology inyear 11 or year 12, so I had a
real baptism of fire there.
But to start with, you know,space is a place, space is
ultimately an eye in the skyfrom which we can see phenomenon
(02:25):
around the world and from upthere we can see so much air
pollution or indicators forpollen movements to warn people
with health issues about this asit's being forecasted, or
predicting disease outbreakslike malaria, from where
mosquitoes might be breedingbecause of weather mosquitoes
might be breeding because ofweather and what you can see
from this high point in space,you can connect and that allows
(02:47):
you to do things liketelemedicine and telerobotic
surgery.
And what you can connect fromup there you can inform, like
with GPS, for example, whichallows for tracking and
monitoring of runs on Strava or,more importantly, for dementia
patients, where they might belocated or ensuring appropriate
transport of drugs and thequality of the environment
(03:09):
they're transported in, liketemperature and humidity.
And there's the spinouts, likeeven the big, beautiful space
telescopes with pure scienceobjectives have helped with
things like MRI and CT scan.
Technology developments andlaser developments in space
contributed to laser eye surgery, but, most critically, I think
(03:29):
the health outcomes on earthhave been advanced by putting
humans in space, particularly onthe International Space Station
, which is a huge space station109 meters across, is almost as
big as a soccer field, and it'sbeen operating up there for more
than 25 years with people on itthat whole time different
people, but people on it thatwhole time and basically, as
(03:52):
astronauts, we study sciences,health sciences and life
sciences and various forms ofbiology, because we're
scientists in the sky, or,probably more accurately, lab
techs in the sky with the handsand the eyes of our country
scientists on the ground upthere.
In fact, 70 to 80 percent of anastronaut's time in space is
usually on microgravity sciences, of which health is a huge part
(04:14):
.
Plus, our bodies are medicalguinea pigs in space, right
because of how the body respondsto the space environment,
especially weightlessness ormicrogravity.
Um, so many systems of the bodychange.
Every system of the body isaffected and it's often affected
in a way that is like aaccelerated disease on earth.
(04:35):
So if you didn't exercise fortwo hours a day in space, you'd
lose bone mass at six to seventimes the rate of a
postmenopausal unmedicated woman, which is, for astronauts, one
to 2% of bone mass a month.
And so we test subjects forosteopenia, so diseases like
osteoporosis, and it's animportant reminder for me that
(04:57):
the human body respondsdifferently if you're male or
female to many of theseconditions, and it's an
important reason why we need tohave more women being astronauts
.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Wow, it's great to hear that, that we need more
representation of both sexes inspace.
Is that why space matters?
Because it's about, once youthink about humans on Earth, you
need to consider the alternateatmosphere around Earth and our
place in it yeah, I mean, Ithink ultimately, space is about
(05:31):
the future, right like.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
It's about protecting and monitoring our planet and
all of us on it to improve ourquality of life, and it's also
to create economic opportunityand complexity and basically to
contribute to big globalchallenges like climate change
and others.
If you look at the unitednations sustainable development
goals, space is fundamentallyrelevant to every single one of
(05:55):
those and helping to address it,and that's because we got there
to make discoveries we can'tdown here with gravity and the
atmosphere in the way.
So it's not just new pharma upthere, it's new medical devices,
it's psychology and adaption tonew environments, it's
antimicrobial materials, and thelist goes on.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You are a huge believer in the medical and
scientific advances that can bemade from experiments conducted
in space.
What sort of biotech researchis going on up there in space
right now?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well, right now on the International Space Station
they have the crew calledExpedition 73, and that's got
seven crew on it and right now Ilooked up what they were doing.
Yesterday and yesterday theywere maintaining their muscles
and monitoring their health astop research priorities.
So basically, experimentsincluded electric muscle
(06:50):
stimulation in combination withexercising.
So they had two astronautsworking together, one with these
electric stimulation devicesand another one with various
monitoring devices to see howtheir body was responding things
like sensor-packed headbandsand vests and breathing
apparatuses.
The day before there was afocus on the heart and the
(07:11):
nervous systems adaptation toweightlessness, using an
ultrasound for heart scans, forexample, up there.
And then virtual reality wasused to study how an astronaut's
nervous system and sense ofbalance can adapt, and those
kinds of research outcomes caninform recovery on earth for
people that have had injuries orhad strokes.
(07:32):
And they're part of what'scalled the cipher suite of 14
different human researchexperiments going on up there
now 14.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
yeah gee, I've never thought about that sort of
research going up on the ISS.
I always, you know, see itgoing across the sky and I think
they're just doing things likechemical analysis of the
environment and, you know,weather patterns and star
searching and Incredible Everyfield of science is relevant.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Every technology readiness level is relevant.
It's an absolutely remarkablepiece of infrastructure for
science, and the astronauts upthere are just the visible tip
of the iceberg of thousands ofresearchers working on these
important, nutty challenges onthe ground.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
One of the biggest challenges is that humans face,
of course, is cancer.
What can you tell us about howthe space environment could help
in terms of finding treatmentsfor cancer?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, cancer research has been one of the priority
topics of the InternationalSpace Station and there's a
number of ways that it is beinginvestigated.
Ultimately, the researchpathways in space come down to
the environment, microgravity.
So in microgravity you canthink of it like there being no
up or down, which means if youthink of a beaker full of a
solution, there's no bottom ortop, which means heavy things
(08:49):
don't go to the bottom, lightthings don't go to the top, so a
solution can be more uniform.
We also don't have an up ordown, so heat doesn't create
heat driven convection, so youhave less fluid mixing and we
also allow for, because thingsfloat, nothing drops to the
bottom of a flask or has to growin 2D, it's 3D environments
without container interactions.
(09:11):
So with all that combined itmeans surface tension and
diffusion dominate At thecellular level.
We now know that many cellsdetect gravity because they have
sedimentation and buoyancymechanisms within the cells.
So we've seen that human cellsoften age faster, which lets us
do accelerated ageing research.
(09:31):
We know in space that you cangrow spheroids or clusters of
cells, organoids, andinvestigate, say, hypoxic cells
in the middle of clusters moreclosely resembling a tumour.
So you can look at themechanism on complex tumours,
particularly complex 3D tumours.
So one example is the UK SpaceAgency has recently funded an
(09:54):
investigation into diffusedmidline glioma, which is a brain
cancer In fact the brain cancerNeil Armstrong's daughter
unfortunately passed away fromand that's because it can grow
in 3D in space and you canunderstand it Looking at those
effects.
What happens in space iscrystals grow larger, more
purely, more uniformly and moreslowly, and that means you can
(10:18):
have big crystals grow, whichcan be protein crystals or metal
crystals or pharmaceuticalcrystals, and that helps us to
understand what we're doingbetter on Earth.
So on Earth, most crystals thatare protein-based there's
hundreds we can't see with ourmicroscopes.
They're too small.
So it's been used to advancetreatments into diseases.
(10:41):
One example is Merck's Keytrudaimmunotherapy cancer drug.
They've been on the spacestation and learned so much
about their drug up there.
Two main things the first isthey were able to decouple
different effects liketemperature and sedimentation
and create a more suitableproduct, and so they've been
(11:04):
able to apply that understandingto earth-based processes to
improve them on the ground.
The second is that the solutionin microgravity was viscous,
which means by replicating thatit could actually be created.
In a way it could be asubcutaneous injection rather
than 30 minutes in an IV bag.
And if you think what that meanson the ground, practically that
(11:25):
means patients don't have tosit in a hospital setting to
have this drug.
They can live in more rural andremote areas, they don't have
to travel interstate or even, insome cases, between countries.
So it can change millions oflives.
And that's for one drug.
But the process that they'velearnt in fact applies to many
kinds of that type of drug.
(11:46):
So it's actually been predictedby Sierra Space that advances
in cancer treatments andtechnologies for diagnosis in
microgravity could in factreduce cancer mortality globally
by 1%, already worth half atrillion dollars if you look at
(12:07):
it from an economic standpoint.
And the list goes on and on.
There's diagnostic devicesusing bubbles that are being
developed, and so on.
I'm really proud to be part ofthis industry that is working on
this.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And what do you think about the opportunities for the
Australian space industry andour life sciences sector to work
more closely together toimprove human health?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Well, we've got a really broad and thriving
domestic biotech sector here inAustralia and are a really
globally recognised hub for lifescience innovation, not just
for humans, but also agricultureand horticulture and other
kinds of biology and, as wellwith that strong focus on
research, commercialisation andcoupled with that, we have an
(12:47):
emerging space sector with itsown strengths.
So here in South Australiawe're a unique destination for
launch and returns.
We've had the first commercialspace capsule returning to a
commercial spaceport anywhere inthe world here recently in the
red dirt of Western SouthAustralia.
Avada is the company that'slanding into Southern Launch,
which is a South Australiancompany, and that's been backed
(13:11):
up with multiple returns withinweeks.
And Vata's just had theirSeries C raise of 187 million US
dollars, which is showinginvestors are backing this
market, and one of their landershad pharmaceutical products on
it.
So the ground is shifting whenwe have advantages.
We're now one of seven spaceagencies to have trained and
qualified an astronaut for theISS, yes, and so we've got new
(13:35):
access and insights into thisworld, even just through the
training so far alone, I think.
So with that considered, wealso need to look at the
timeliness of the opportunity toget involved.
The International Space Stationis currently planned to go out
to 2030, so it's coming to thesunset of its life, but there's
still opportunity to utilise it.
(13:55):
In the meantime.
There are commercial spacestations in development, there
are these capsules, and it's agreat time to get in on the
ground floor to see what ourrole here is.
And Australia does have someexcellent discrete examples
already of researchers usingmicrogravity.
We're hearing about them todayon the panel and from the other
(14:16):
people on this podcast, but wedon't yet have a big central
activity around it.
Across the country, it's morediscrete research occurring and
it's a bit of a blind spot, tobe honest, I think, for
Australia.
If people aren't aware thatmicrogravity is a laboratory in
space, being the largest part,but there's also facilities on
ground, then we're not makingthe use of it and taking all the
(14:39):
opportunities.
So I hope to make people awareof this as an opportunity for
their research and theirapplications.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Fantastic.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast, Catherine, and for
sharing your passion andenthusiasm and the opportunities
that are out there forAustralian life sciences sector
researchers, innovators andscientists.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Thank you.
I have so much to learn on thistopic too, so I look forward to
the exchanges.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I'm Dr Gordon Cable.
I'm a specialist in aerospacemedicine.
I've made a whole career ofthat, really working for the Air
Force in high-performancemilitary aviation, and then
latterly got really interestedin space, I guess as a result of
that background.
So for the last 15 years or soI've been very keen to explore
what Australia is doing in space, life sciences and medicine,
(15:26):
promoting that, producingcourses and training in that
field for people who areinterested in doing that sort of
thing.
So yes, my background ismedicine, medically trained,
specializing in aerospacemedicine, and now working
predominantly for my own company, human Aerospace, as a head of
flight medicine.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Welcome Gordon, it's great to have you on the podcast
.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Thanks, carolyn.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So you're interested in space medicine, and so are we
, which is why we're here todayto talk about this fascinating
area.
What does space medicine meanand what does it involve?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Well, goodness me how much time.
It really depends on from whichperspective you look at that.
I mean, space medicine is aboutkeeping humans safe and well
and alive in a reallychallenging environment.
So it's about human spaceflightand making sure that the people
who go to space are fit andwell and also developing
countermeasures to counter theextreme environment they're in.
(16:16):
So I guess that's one side ofit.
I mean, the other side of it isyou know what we can do in
terms of medical research inspace?
I mean, once we get humans upthere and we can get payloads
into space, what can we learn inthat microgravity environment
that we can't learn on Earthbecause the environment is so
different?
And we can do a whole bunch ofdifferent medical research
projects which we just can't doon Earth.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Tell me about the biomedical aspects of
spaceflight and that environment.
Why is it so different?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Well, the GWI.
Again, there are many aspectsto that.
I guess, focusing on theelements which are most relevant
to the work that we do at HumanAerospace, it's the
microgravity environment.
I think that's most important.
We could talk all day about allthe different environmental
challenges, even radiation andso on, but microgravity the way
that it affects bones andmuscles bones waste away,
muscles waste away unlessthey're loaded and exercised.
(17:05):
The vestibular system, which isthe body system that looks after
your balance and posture andlocomotion, that becomes more
adapted to a microgravityenvironment than Earth.
So that means that when youcome back to Earth or you land
on the Moon or Mars, you can'tbalance and walk and move about
as well.
And finally, there's thecardiovascular issues, which is
(17:26):
what we're primarily focusing onat the moment with human
aerospace.
That's, looking at what happensto blood pressure when you
return from a microgravityenvironment.
How do you support that?
How do you prevent the dramaticfalls that can sometimes occur
in blood pressure when you comeback from space?
And preventing using differentsuit technologies that we might
talk about later to try andprevent some of the
(17:47):
cardiovascular effects ofmicrogravity, even while you're
in space?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
try and prevent some of the cardiovascular effects of
microgravity, even while you'rein space.
So the challenges that peopleface when they go into space,
for instance on safe spacemissions you're trying to
maintain some sort of likestandard body operation that you
would normally have on Earth.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
That's right.
So the suits, for example, aretrying to trick the body into
thinking that gravity is stillacting in this really
challenging environment.
It's funny.
I mean, microgravity is anextreme environment, but humans
are incredibly adaptablecreatures and it isn't very long
and, as you know, astronautswho go to space you see them
flying around like superman orwoman in the space station.
I mean, it doesn't take themlong to get used to that and
(18:26):
they're moving around like it'snot a problem.
But it's the gravity transitionthat's the problem.
It's the getting to space andadapting to that and they're
moving around like it's not aproblem, but it's the gravity
transition that's the problem.
It's the getting to space andadapting to that, but then it's
coming home again andre-adapting to that.
So it's the transitions ofgravity that are a big problem
for the astronauts.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Tell us about some of this technology that you're
working on.
It's a spacesuit design program.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Not exactly the spacesuits that your audience
may be familiar with, becausebecause I think when people
think of spacesuits they thinkof the extravehicular activity
suits, the big puffy white gaspressurized suits that we move
around in, you know, outside theInternational Space Station,
for example.
But we're working onintravehicular activity suits,
IVA suits which can be worn,probably periodically they're a
(19:08):
bit uncomfortable to wearconstantly, but the idea is to
have a suit that is loading thebody both axially and radially,
and loading it such that itmimics the effect of gravity on
the tissues and tricks the body,tricks the muscles and bones
into thinking that gravity isacting.
So we've been looking at fromthree aspects.
We've originally startedlooking at it from a bone
(19:28):
protection point of view, toload up the body to try and
prevent the loss of calcium frombones that occurs in space,
similar to what happens in olderpatients with osteoporosis.
But then we realized that NASAhas almost cracked that problem
and we moved on to something alittle bit more relevant to them
, which was the neurovestibularthing I mentioned before.
So using the suits to try andprovide what we call a
(19:51):
proprioceptive input, that meansmaking the bones and joints and
muscles think that gravity isacting, so that it gives it a
vertical reference.
In an environment where thereis no vertical reference,
there's no up or down inmicrogravity.
So it's to try and trick thebody into that feeling that
sense that gravity is acting, sothat the balance system is
maintained, and also adding someresistive elements to movement
(20:13):
in the suit so that when youmove your limbs you feel like
you're moving against gravity.
Once again it's the muscleinput into the brain saying OK,
gravity is acting in aparticular direction and it
might actually help maintain thereflexes that we need.
The main problem with nothaving those reflexes if we do
go eventually to Mars afterseven or eight months in
microgravity, what happens toastronauts who are completely
(20:34):
deconditioned?
and can't walk a straight lineor can't get up and move rapidly
and quickly and use theirmuscles as they normally do.
If the spacecraft has to beevacuated quickly, for example,
how do they do that?
So there's a lot of work goingon in that space at NASA at the
moment as well, but hopefullythis suit can contribute.
And finally, the cardiovascularsuits, looking at the
(20:56):
maintenance of blood pressure onreturn to Earth.
We call those orthostaticintolerance garments.
We've come up with a better,more adjustable design for that,
because the body changes inmicrogravity as your muscles,
waste and fluids move.
Suits that are tailored to fitbefore you go to space aren't
going to fit when you come home.
So we've come up with a way ofadapting the fit to better apply
the pressures required andtogether with that, using some
(21:20):
thigh cuff designs, so puttingalmost like a tourniquet around
the cuff to trap some fluid inthe lower limbs to prevent that
shift of fluid up towards thehead that occurs in microgravity
.
So there's been a number ofaspects that we've been looking
at and it's the same technologywe've been able to apply in
those three different ways, andso these suits are made of all
different materials.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They're designed differently, they could be worn
at different times, during aspace mission, for instance.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yes.
Well, for the example, with thesomatosensory suit, as we call
it, the one that gives you thatproprioceptive input, you know
we were thinking that, and thiswas where more research is
required to figure out what isthe appropriate dosing schedule.
You know, we wouldn't possiblyimagine that astronauts would
want to wear this thing 24 7.
So our thought would be that asyou approach destination, you
would increase the, the weartime and frequency to start to
(22:07):
redevelop those reflexes thatyou need once you arrive at your
destination.
But there's still a lot of workto do on exactly what that
dosing would look like.
One of the funny things that wenoticed with these suits is that
we thought, oh, wouldn't it begreat to wear them while you're
asleep, because it just sort ofhappens automatically and you
don't even know, but it'sactually.
You can't wear them when you'resleeping.
You can't sleep Because it putspressure on the soles of your
feet so that the gravity load issort of acting downwards and
(22:31):
the straps around the bottom ofyour feet that hold it all
together makes you feel likeyou're standing up.
And who can sleep standing up?
Speaker 5 (22:36):
unless you're a horse .
Speaker 4 (22:37):
So I mean humans don't really do that very well.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
So how do you think this type of technology, which
sounds incredibly complex, couldbe used here on Earth to help
with sort of health conditions,for instance, or health
challenges?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think earth to help with sort
of health conditions, forinstance, or health challenges,
absolutely, and I think that'sone of the most important things
about space research.
It's it's, you know, takingtechnology to space to help
space fairers, but it's thetranslational benefits on earth
for health care.
That's really, I think, ourmain drive in some ways to get
this.
You know this technologydeveloped, it's already being
used.
Compression garments arecurrently used in athletics.
(23:09):
High performance athletes usethem for recovery and
performance maintenance.
But we foresee an applicationof these technologies in burns
patients, in patients withlymphedema, post-surgical
recovery, venous thrombosis andembolism prevention and a whole
range of different applications,even after plastic surgery.
(23:31):
Sometimes there's actuallystudies showing also that people
on the autism spectrum, withdisabilities that have some
mobility issues, have benefitfrom compression garment
technologies as well.
So there's a range of differentthings that we could look at in
the future that might bebeneficial to healthcare.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Should we be doing more to connect our life science
or life science sectorinnovators into Australia's
space research sector?
Are we doing enough of that?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Probably no.
I mean, I think one of thethings I learned and actually I
should say, before I mentionthis, I'd spent a little bit of
time working and helping out atthe space agency a few years ago
when we were putting together aspace medicine and life
sciences roadmap and one of thethings I found doing that and
reaching out to researchers andpeople working in different
(24:20):
medical fields around thecountry.
A lot of people were working onprojects that were relevant to
space and they didn't even knowit.
You know, I'd hear of peopledoing things and it wasn't until
I actually chatted to them andsaid well, do you realise that
that might be useful technologyon the space station?
The classic example I use thereis actually one of the
(24:41):
companies in Adelaide that Italk to makes micro-CT scanners.
Now, this scanner is the size ofa hula hoop, if you know how
big.
That is right, it's designed tosit in the back of an ambulance
or in the back of an RFDSaircraft, but it's the size of a
hula hoop and it's a CT scanner.
The aim of that was to actuallydiagnose stroke very quickly,
because the sooner you diagnosestroke and administer the
treatment, you can, you know,cause or really create a much
(25:04):
better benefit for the patient.
So I looked at that and Ithought that there is no such
thing as a CT scanner in spaceright now.
But it's portable, it's small,it's designed for travel and,
assuming they sort out the power, weight, volume, radiation
issues associated, to have a CTscanner in space, on the moon or
on deep space missions would bean incredible advantage.
(25:25):
At the moment, the onlyradiological imaging that could
be done on the space station isultrasound.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So already there's some potential there for some
Australian technology that'sright, I mean, that's just one
example.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I would be talking to companies making medical
technologies all over the placewho suddenly had an aha moment
when I said did you realise,have you talked to NASA, have
you actually explored the spaceapplication of this?
And hopefully some of thosefolks I spoke to went on to do
that.
I haven't worked there at theagency for some time, but I
would hope that some of thattechnology is being looked at
(25:57):
for that application.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Fantastic.
So what's next for humanaerospace?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Well, that's a very good question.
We are reliant for the researchon grants, as so many people
are, and getting grant fundingis really difficult at the
moment to continue the work thatwe're doing.
So we're exploring thoseoptions.
But to sort of pivot into adifferent direction, I've also
been looking at developing somecourses in aerospace medicine
(26:24):
and space medicine, shortcourses which can be delivered
online that Human Aerospace iscurrently working on to try and
in a similar way to you knowwhat you're doing here, with
podcasts, providing education toa cohort of people out there.
I think this is what we want todo with human aerospace to try
and bring aerospace medicine tothe industry, to the aerospace
industry, to anybody who wantsto know about how humans you
(26:47):
know human physiology behaves inspace or behaves in the
aviation environment.
We want to try and get thatinformation out there, because
there seems to be a hunger forinformation on that and there
aren't many courses available inAustralia that provide that.
That's another direction we'relooking at right now, as well as
the research side.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
And you know, I've never thought about how a human
is really developed specificallyto operate on Earth.
And then what happens to that,that whole you know biology
system up in space?
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Well, exactly right, and this is a really interesting
question.
When it comes to potential, youknow, habitation permanently on
other planets, on other worlds.
If we, for example, develop,you know, a human outpost on
Mars and people start to developa whole colony there, start to
develop a whole colony there weknow very little about human
(27:33):
reproduction in the spaceenvironment to be able to
populate another world and carryon the human condition in
another way, as it were.
But what about childrendeveloping in that environment?
As you say, we are designed todevelop on Earth Embryologically
.
We need that 1G environment.
For example, in the way thatthe neural tube develops in the
embryo and the way that thebones and muscles develop in
young children, the epiphysesand so on are reliant upon
(27:57):
loading and gravity to fuse.
So what are future Mars humansgoing to look like, is my
question.
I'll leave that one hanging foreveryone to have a think about.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
What a great question .
To finish on, it's been anabsolute pleasure, gordon,
having you on the podcast today.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
To finish on, it's been an absolute pleasure,
gordon, having you on thepodcast today.
Thanks for coming.
Great that, carolyn.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Thanks, it's been a pleasure being here.
I'm Tiffany Sharp and I'm theCEO of Cambrian Defence and
Space.
My focus is on space researchand development.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Welcome to the podcast, Tiffany.
I understand that you believethat space is of service to
Earth.
I just would really love you tounpack that for us.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
A hundred percent.
Yes, everything that we do itreally has a focus on solving
complex problems to benefithumanity.
It just so happens thatmicrogravity presents the
ability to have a fast track.
Look into proliferation ofaging tissue cells or
proliferation of bacteria.
It also is a pristine, sterileenvironment.
(28:57):
The problem with not being ableto replicate on Earth what we
can do in microgravity is thatspeeding up process it would
have human ethical implicationsto you know.
Expect someone to have theirgut dysbiosis put into a
(29:20):
simulation and replicate mentalhealth issues, for example,
whereas we know with my researchin an astronaut twin study that
the astronaut that spent 365days in space had a particular
gut species reduction.
You can't really replicate thatethically back here on Earth.
(29:40):
And everything that we work onin microgravity is looking at
predominantly mental healthmitigating risk, predominantly
mental health mitigating risk.
This has applications in thedefence force, frontline
providers and also in optimalperformance.
So you could be looking at aMaranpa athlete to Olympians.
(30:01):
It all has applications thatfast tracks results.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And you're very interested in the impacts of
gravity on neurosciences, on theneural pathways and the brain
function Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Again, space is providing insights into
basically disease and ailmentstates that are problems here on
Earth.
So if you just think basicallyof astronauts, when they're in
the International Space Station,they have intracranial pressure
, international Space Station,they have intracranial pressure
and what that can help us withif we're researching that in
(30:34):
space is TBI traumatic braininjury.
So a lot of my work focuses onmilitary and veteran defence
personnel, health and the impactof high blast and their work
environment, along with sportpersonnel.
Having this snapshot in spaceis able to give us ideas on how
(30:55):
we can mitigate that, whichagain fast tracks that ability
to have an application here onearth.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And you've recently been on an interesting research
journey I guess you'd call it upin the northern parts of the
world.
Can you tell us about this inSweden?
As I told my daughter at the,year farther Christmas.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Yes, it was very far north Arctic Circle.
There's a Swedish spacecorporation have a rocket base
out there.
They've been operating for over60 years and I was lucky enough
to get a pathway to spacethrough DLR, german Aerospace
and International Collaboration.
And I was looking at specificmicrobial behaviour in
(31:35):
microgravity and it's because ofthat astronaut twin study that
showed that there was a declinein a specific species that
impacts anxiety, depression andthe immune system From the gut
biome.
Yeah, so there was a declinefrom the, the astronaut that was
in space.
His twins remained on earth.
(31:55):
So it was a wonderful snapshoton all areas of gut microbiology
, uh, neuroscience and um,tissue cell and biology to see
how he's twin, all the tests atbaseline and post, uh, 365 days
in space compared to the twin onearth and it was that
difference in gut dysbiosis,that decline in that particular
(32:19):
gut species, that grabbed myattention and that twin study is
full of data and you have toreally crawl through it and my
experience in clinic as apracticing clinical nutritionist
.
I was utilizing a specific yeastto help postpartum women and
when I saw this decline in thisparticular species it was just a
(32:42):
hunch.
I thought this helped withmental health when I was working
in counseling centers Let mejust have a look at this and it
turned out that it can increasethis particular gut species by
up to 30% In terms of wellbeingor mental wellbeing, just the
species that's responsible forhaving that anxiety and that
(33:03):
depression and that inflammatoryresponse, neuromodulation
response.
So if we could then prove thattaking this in an extremely
hostile environment forlong-term space exploration
could mitigate worst case inmood, we would be looking at
something that we could utiliseon Earth For more than
(33:25):
postpartum and I have to admitthat I'm a bit of a maverick.
Back then it was over 10 yearsago.
In clinic practice, thisproduct is not well known to be
able to have this effect, soresearching it in space is going
to get the attention that itdeserves to be almost used like
a prophylactic and obviouslymental health.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It's a massive problem for the human race
really in terms of survival,looking at suicide rates
increasing and it has a hugeimpact on human life.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
A hundred percent and we're seeing hospital reports
where there's an increase inmental health cases and violence
, and also a very underservedmember of the community is women
in perimenopause and theirmental health, and if you can
find something that's over thecounter, well then it's going to
be of benefit to all.
(34:18):
And it could be as simple as wehave COVID the impact of
viruses on the gut health.
If we can restore that, wecould be looking at a mitigation
of worst case.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's really exciting to hear about this
valuable research that you'reundertaking, and do you think
that we need more of this typeof focused research in terms of
the human condition?
Speaker 6 (34:42):
A hundred percent, not just in focus of nutritional
neuroscience or mental health,but in terms of current medical
research, is looking ateverything in 2d.
Space is going to provide a 3dopportunity to fast track
throughout any research topicyou can basically think of.
So I think of an accelerationof any illness.
(35:05):
We're working with partners onantibiotic resistance,
antimicrobial resistance.
Space is that perfectenvironment because of that
proliferation of bacteria, timerelease, a novel agent.
All of a sudden, a losingbattle here with antibiotic
resistance on Earth.
We can get a snapshot of whatmay be able to counter that, and
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
That is really good news, because we know that AMR
is the next pandemic Globalissue.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, and it's multifaceted.
We're looking at agriculture,we're looking at the medical
community and we're reallyexcited with our partners.
They're outstanding researchers.
The novel product they'relooking at isn't the traditional
antibiotic route, somicrogravity provides the
perfect environment to be ableto demonstrate that capability.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What would you say to people that are out there in
the biotech, medtech space thatare keen to find out if their
research or their innovationscould be applied in a space or
microgravity environment?
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Come and talk to us and contact Cambrian Defence and
Space MTP Connect.
And contact Cambrian Defenceand Space MTP Connect.
We can definitely lead you intoa pathway to show whether we
can give you that pun intendedgiant leap and breakthrough in
your research, and a lot ofdifferent European companies and
pharmaceuticals are alreadyonto this.
(36:25):
The usual drug research takesover 10 years.
They're able to shorten thattime.
The financial incentive isthere but, more importantly,
saving lives in a fastertimeframe than what we have been
able to do.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, Tiffany, thank you very much for coming on the
podcast.
It's been a pleasure to talkwith you today.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
No, thank you and happy 200.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
So my name is Richard Harvey, I am the Chief
Operating Officer for the ARCCentre of Excellence in Plants
for Space, and my role is reallyto manage the operations of the
centre, manage our partnerships, but also to, I guess, help
with the strategic direction ofthe centre and ensure that our
research is having real worldimpact.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, I've noticed you're wearing a brooch on your
lapel and it's a beautiful red,blue and green sort of leafy
design.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Really Plants for Space.
It's really, I guess, at itscore about if, as humans, we're
going to go back out into thesolar system, to the moon and
then off to Mars, then we needto be thinking about how do we
support our health as humans,and we think plants are going to
be an important part of that,because it's going to be hard to
resupply and, um, you know also, you know we're going to think
(37:40):
about the health and thepsychological well-being.
So really what this is about isthe blue is the earth, the red
is mars and the leaf is kind oflike the rocket that's heading
from earth to mars, full ofplants 100 so it's obviously
around um not just foodproduction, but also production
of synthesis and and chemicalsas well in space.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Is that right?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
yeah, absolutely so.
Plants have a variety ofimpacts in terms of how they,
you know important they are forhere on earth.
What we're looking at is howyou can I push the boundaries of
what plants can do to supporthumans when they're a long way
from Earth.
And humans need food, we neednutrition.
Plants are also important forour psychological well-being.
I mean, it's a connection tohome.
(38:25):
It's, you know, astronauts onthe ISS.
They, one of their favouritethings to do in their leisure
time, which they don't have muchof, is to plants, because it's
it's an important connection tohome for them.
But what we're also looking atdoing aside from the food and
nutrition aspect, is can youalso design plants to produce
other essential compounds andmaterials?
Because you imagine you're along way from home.
(38:48):
You might need certainpharmaceuticals, you might need
other materials, like plastics,for example, and you're not
going to be able to bringeverything you're going to need
for an entire mission with you.
So can you produce them usingplants?
And so that's what we're doingis designing plants that could
then be.
You know, you could turn on andoff, using something like a
(39:09):
change in the wavelength oflight, to produce a particular
compound on demand when you needit.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So it's like a material that you're using.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
As a biomanufacturing platform, as a tool for
creating things.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So these plants are not really what we think of as
plants.
Like you're not taking a maidenhair fern or a eucalyptus
sapling, You're actuallycreating something totally new
that we've never seen before.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
Well, we're using existing plants, so we are
taking plants that people wouldbe familiar with, some more
familiar than others so, forexample, we're talking about
using it as a biomanufacturingplatform.
One of our favourite plants isa duckweed, which is basically a
very fastowing plant thatpeople might see in sort of
(39:55):
stagnant ponds, but it growsreally fast, and so if we can
genetically manipulate it toproduce compounds of interest,
then that's something that wouldbe quite useful to do, and
we're talking about in acontrolled environment, so that
also deals with some of theregulatory challenges.
But equally, we're also lookingat plants like tomatoes.
So how can we improve tomatoesfor those sorts of environments
(40:18):
as well, and strawberries aswell?
One of the things we've got tothink about is, if we're trying
to be really, really efficientwhich is something we want to do
here on Earth as well with ouragriculture then how do we make
the best use of the entire plant?
So we think of something like astrawberry, and you know at the
moment, and it's something likea strawberry and you know at the
moment, and it's a problem forthe strawberry sector is it
(40:40):
costs them money to dispose ofeverything but the strawberry
fruit itself.
So what we want to do is can weincrease the amount of fruit,
but then also can we increasethe nutritional value in the
other plant parts, whether it'sthe roots, whether it's the
leaves, and make use of that?
And that's obviously importantin space, where we've got to
(41:00):
make use of every last moleculewe bring with us.
But then on earth, if you're inthe strawberry industry and
you're not then having to dealwith the cost of disposing of
that material plus you've got aplant now that's more, you know
is optimised to grow in moreclimate resilient conditions,
then that's something thatthey're really excited about too
.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So are there currently plants up in space?
Have you got labs up there withplants?
Speaker 5 (41:27):
in them.
So we work.
You know, our space experimentsare often done through our
partners.
So we've got a closepartnership with NASA's crop
production team at the KennedySpace Centre in Florida and
there's an experiment that we'redoing right now.
So our team at the Universityof Western Australia is working
with them on some lettuce plantsthat were grown on the ISS and
(41:49):
what they were working out isbecause water behaves very
differently in space, so it isreally sticky.
So there's some really coolvideos in youtube where
astronauts grab a water-soakedsponge, they wring it out, but
the water just stays as a blobaround their hands.
Um, that's that can be a problemfor plants, because it
basically drowns them.
So they respond to that likethey're in a flooded paddock and
(42:10):
so then you try and withdrawthe water.
So it doesn't do that and youhave the opposite impact.
So what this project um that'sin the iss now or just sort of
completed in the iss now istrying to use some of the
advantages of how water behavesin space to to to look really
sort of um, deliberately atwater use in plants so better
(42:34):
understand how they can make youknow how they make use of water
, so that we can encourageplants to grow in ways that are
more you know, take up water andoxygen more efficiently, but
then also design water deliverysystems that could be used by
agriculture and horticulturalcompanies to sort of deliver as
minimal amount of water aspossible that the plant can use,
(42:56):
and that's something theindustry sees as being very
valuable.
Because, you know SouthAustralia, the last 12 months or
so is very low rainfall.
There's a lot of, you know,greenhouses that have relied
much more on mains water thanthey normally would, and that's
an enormous cost.
So there's a lot of importantinnovations from what's
happening in some of this workthat we're doing in space that's
(43:17):
very relevant to companies liketomato farmers down here on.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Earth.
You mentioned beforebiomanufacturing, or
pharmaceutical properties ofplants and how that could be
applied to health research andinnovation.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat area?
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Yeah, so what we've been doing is developing systems
, so basically gene circuits,where you can control the um,
you know, expression of genes ina very deliberate way so you
can turn things on and off, soyou can produce a compound you
want when you want it and whereyou want it in the plant.
And so that you know we'retrialing a whole bunch of
(43:57):
different things in that kind ofsystem, which would mean to say
, if you're in a remote part ofaustralia, for example, or mars,
and there is, you know, youcould have a plant that is
designed to produce fivedifferent compounds, but using a
very specific combination oftemperature, wavelength of light
, you can very deliberatelyinduce the expression and
(44:18):
production of a particularcompound, sort of on demand.
A very sort of interestingproject we're doing right now
that's very relevant to healthand medical research.
So we're working with ProfessorChris Sweeney at the South
Australian Immunogenomics CancerInstitute here in Adelaide
looking at the feverfew plant,which is like a daisy.
(44:38):
It produces something calledparthenolide which makes cancer
cells more susceptible toradiotherapy, but it also
protects healthy cells fromradiation, and so there's some
obvious applications for that onEarth in treating cancer.
But some of our partners thatare looking at sending humans
into space say that there's aobvious applications for that on
earth and treating cancer.
But some of our partners thatare looking at sending humans
into space say that there's alot more radiation, particularly
(45:00):
as you get further out, and sothere's some advantages to that
too.
So we're working with them toyou know, because this plant
doesn't grow that well in thefield and it can be a bit
unpredictable in terms of how itproduces this compound.
So in a controlled environment,under lights, in a vertical
farm, we're optimising thegrowth conditions of that so
(45:21):
that we can improve the yield,create stable product, but then
also look to maybe even put itinto other, faster growing plant
systems to really ramp up theproduction of that compound.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
And that could be something used to protect space
travellers in the future againstradiation.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
Yes, absolutely, as well as improve the efficacy of
radiotherapy for cancer patients.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
As a molecular biologist, you must be part of a
really large team at the ARC ofscientists working here in
Australia and around the world.
How exciting is it to be partof something that's sort of a
global innovation program.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
Oh look, it's incredibly exciting.
I mean, there's such breadth interms of what we're doing.
So the University of Adelaideis the lead, but there's another
four Australian universities,so Melbourne, la Trobe, western
Australia and flinders, andwe're sort of we're in our
second of seven years and sowe're building up to about a
standing load of about 200researchers.
So that's really exciting,bringing on new, often young,
(46:24):
people who are really passionateabout what they're doing and
excited particularly about thespace angle, because we've got a
lot of people that haven't comefrom a background where they've
traditionally been working inspace, a lot of them sort of in
plant science, food science, allthose sorts of areas.
But then in our wider networkof partners across government,
academia and industry we havesome really cool partners like
(46:45):
nasa, axiom, space, verticalfarming companies.
You know universities like uc,berkeley, uc, davis, cambridge,
um, and and sort of governmentagencies here in Australia as
well, but also sort of focus alot more on the sort of plant
science side of things.
But we also have people who areworking in sort of chemical
(47:05):
engineering, in psychology.
So how do people respond to newfoods?
Are they going to eat ourstrawberries if we change them?
What are the sensory kind ofconsiderations in terms of how
people perceive foods, and theneven um space law.
So, looking at some of theregulatory um aspects, so these
are things that have not beendone before.
(47:27):
So there are a lot offrameworks that don't really
even exist in terms of how youyou know you deal with some of
these issues and, like ethicalissues, around gene
transformation and things likethat.
Yeah, the ethics of all of thatis really important.
So it's not just a case of canwe do it, but what should we do?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
And what's the impact of what we do?
Speaker 5 (47:45):
if we do it Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And so your dream for the ARC?
What would it be if you had onething that you hope comes true
from the research that you'reworking on?
Speaker 5 (47:58):
Oh look, I mean I'd hate to speak for 200 people
that we'll have on the centre,but I think that what I would
hope you know to see is some newplant varieties that NASA are
looking to take or areconsidering at least taking into
space as part of an actualmission.
(48:19):
So we'll obviously haveexperiments with them, but
looking further than justexperiments, something that's
actually useful, but then alsobeing able to stand next to a
tomato farmer in the AdelaidePlains and talking about how the
work that we have done ishelping improve the
sustainability of their business.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Well, we're going to be watching with interest and
thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
It's been fantastic.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
It's a pleasure.
This podcast was recorded inAdelaide for MTP Connect's South
Australian Insight Series eventwhat's your Place in Space, to
celebrate Australian Space Week.
For this 200th episode, here isa shout out to all of the
fantastic MTP Connect team whohave helped to make the series
(49:05):
such a success To our CEO,stuart Dignam, who created this
podcast back in 2019, and ourformer team member, shannon
Osren, who contributed to theshow.
Thanks also to our verytalented editor and producer,
natalie vella, for herdedication to every episode.
And as the host of the podcast,it's my absolute pleasure to
(49:25):
bring you australian stories ofinnovation from the life
sciences sector 65 000 downloadsso far and many more to come.
5,000 downloads so far and manymore to come.
You've been listening to theMTP Connect podcast.
This podcast is produced on thelands of the Wurundjeri people
here in Narm, melbourne.
Thanks for listening to theshow.
(49:46):
If you love what you heard,share our podcast and follow us
for more Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.