August 8, 2025 • 21 mins
The land of the free? Not if you're trans. The U.S. is cementing itself as a hostile environment for transgender individuals and their families, with anti-trans policies driving some to flee the country. This isn't about protecting kids; it's about control, bigotry, and weaponizing pseudoscience for political gain, threatening fundamental human rights and democracy itself. While policymakers ignore actual science and real issues like equal pay or child starvation, humanists and secular advocates must fight for inclusion, truth, and dignity for all, especially those without the privilege to escape this dangerous erosion of liberty. It's an alarming attack on identity and autonomy.
News Source: Families Say They're Leaving The US Due To The Anti-Transgender Climate
By Jo Yurcaba for NBC News
June 1, 2025
🔗 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/families-say-leaving-us-anti-transgender-climate-rcna206560
The Non-Prophets, Episode 24.31.3 featuring Cynthia McDonald, Flabbergasted, and Eli Slack
Trans Exodus from US 🏳️⚧️
America's Anti-Trans Climate 🇺🇸
Families Fleeing US Hate 💔
Gender War: Science Denied 🔬
Pseudoscience vs. Trans Rights 🚫
Liberty for Some, Not All ⚖️
Targeting Trans Kids 👶
The Cost of Bigotry 💸
Humanists: Fight for Trans Rights 💪
Beyond "Protecting Women's Sports" 🏆
Erosion of Civil Liberties 📉
Trans Lives Under Threat 🚨
Humanism Demands Dignity 🤝
Is America Still Free? 🤔
Political Gain, Human Harm 🔥
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-non-prophets--3254964/support.
News Source: Families Say They're Leaving The US Due To The Anti-Transgender Climate
By Jo Yurcaba for NBC News
June 1, 2025
🔗 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/families-say-leaving-us-anti-transgender-climate-rcna206560
The Non-Prophets, Episode 24.31.3 featuring Cynthia McDonald, Flabbergasted, and Eli Slack
Trans Exodus from US 🏳️⚧️
America's Anti-Trans Climate 🇺🇸
Families Fleeing US Hate 💔
Gender War: Science Denied 🔬
Pseudoscience vs. Trans Rights 🚫
Liberty for Some, Not All ⚖️
Targeting Trans Kids 👶
The Cost of Bigotry 💸
Humanists: Fight for Trans Rights 💪
Beyond "Protecting Women's Sports" 🏆
Erosion of Civil Liberties 📉
Trans Lives Under Threat 🚨
Humanism Demands Dignity 🤝
Is America Still Free? 🤔
Political Gain, Human Harm 🔥
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-non-prophets--3254964/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are now living in times where certain populations are
being targeted and scapegoaded, and even laws are being constricted
and conscribed because of who they are. We're talking about
an anti trans climate that is existing and is being
bolstered in today's thought. ELI has the store ELI.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
The US has always been associated, at least in our minds,
as the place that people go for more liberty, more rights,
more opportunities. But for at least these three families and
certainly more, that illusion is kind of lifting, and the
man behind the curtain is being revealed. A transgender youth
in Colorado, a prominent trans advocacy family from Missouri, and
(00:47):
a trans couple from Ohio have all made plans to
leave or indeed have already left the country in the
face of the recent hard shift toward anti trans policies
in the United States. To the exclusion of the Accent
family from Missouri, Kansas City that they that were otherwise unidentified,
not a single subject of this article was comfortable including
(01:10):
their last names to identify themselves lest they to be targeted.
And I think that speaks volumes to the terror and
the fear that they're facing and the reasons that they're
choosing to leave. The story is from NBC News by
joe Yurkaba on June first, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Eli, And I'm going to send my first
question to you. So what does it say about the
state of our democracy when families feel they must flee
the country to protect their children from government policies.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I think it speaks a lot to like a sort
of disillusionment that's starting to happen, kind of like I
mentioned in the intro, like we at least grew up
being taught that like America is the land of liberty.
Like it's this sort of propaganda that like I fell for,
Like I've talked about it before. I'm a veteran. I
felt for that sort of propaganda where like you know, life, liberty,
(02:04):
pursuit of happiness, and like I was ready to like
die because I thought that that was worth dying for.
And the people, I think are starting to become disillusioned
to this end mass and realize that like, like you know,
they taught us. I've seen this meme that says, like
they taught us growing up, They forced us to recite
with Liberty and Justice for All every morning before school
(02:28):
from like five years old until eighteen. But then once
we reach eighteen and we're like, hi, I'm here for
my government mandated liberty and justice, they tell us to
get fucked because that's not it's just like it's fan service.
It's like the patriotic equivalent of like big jiggly anime boobies,
and it doesn't mean anything. There's no substance to it.
It's just there to sound good and make people, you know,
(02:51):
like what they see or hear.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, it's tough, so I know that. Like one of
the things that I was talking about earlier, like BAX
is when I discussed my experience going to nanakon this passin.
One of the panelists of a segment that I actually
watched was a retired professor who happened to be trans,
(03:16):
who spoke about colleagues of THEIRS who were opting to
leave the United States because of the anti trans climate
and them wanting to protect their kids. And I posed
a question to not only that person, but also to
the panels that actually were participating in audience about well,
(03:40):
sometimes leaving the country is not going to be something
that's accessible to every person who happens to identify as
trans or even has trans kids, because uprooting your family
or even yourself to an entire different country is expensive.
And it's not like, you know, people are just like
(04:01):
offering amnesty on the platter to American citizens at this
particular juncture to the point where like, oh, yes, come here,
we'll give you shelter, even though I wish they would,
but that's just not the case at this particular moment
in time, right, so we are forced to, like, you know,
ask ourselves, like what can we do as a you know,
as an electorate, as a constituency, as a community to
(04:25):
protect people who happen to be going through the things
that we're dealing with at this particular moment of time. So,
flatbric acaid, I want to ask you, how do we
as a community challenge the narratives that frames gender affirming
care as dangerous or abusive, especially when this narrative is
(04:46):
shaping national policy.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
That's a really hard one because this narrative is based
so much in either just straight bigotry or an absolute
blatant misunderstanding or refusal to underunderstand what the science actually
says about these issues. And so when we're facing that,
the only thing we can do is just be advocates
(05:09):
for it, speaking out against it, this misunderstanding, against this bigotry.
Anytime we have an opportunity, and sometimes that's uncomfortable and
not everybody's going to be able to speak out in
the same ways. But like if we speak out when
we hear people engaging in this hate speech or in
these dog whistles that we hear around these topics all
day long, and we stop being kind of wishy washy
on the values that we're willing to defend in in
(05:31):
a particular situation, that is how we can start challenging
the exchange. Because these ideas get propagated because people aren't
pushing back against them, people aren't standing up against them,
and so they're going out there being unchallenged. People are saying, well,
I don't want to I don't want to platform a
person who's saying really horrible things, so okay, so then
they're just going out there and they have a platform already.
(05:52):
They're going out there and they're spreading all of this information,
all this misinformation, all of this negative, harmful rhetoric. And
when you see people doing that, if you have an
opportunity to stand up against that and say no. Actually, actually,
as we have discussed, that is a good time to
do it. And it's not just doing it on the
larger scales, it's doing it when you hear it from
your friends and your family members, Like if you I
(06:15):
realize that not everybody has an opportunity if your family
member is saying something that's bigoted and hateful, and you
have to effectively weigh your relationship with them versus defending
the rights and freedoms and well being of people that
you may never know. That's a hard choice to make.
But at the end of the day, the right choice
is going to be the one where you're actually advocating
(06:37):
for what is true and what is actually supported by
the science.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, actually, I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because
I know that we had past shows where we talked
about people within our own community who we had long
time respected and have positively added to the discourse when
it came to people who happened to live their lives secularly,
(07:04):
but when it came to the conversation about transgenderism and
the science behind it, they were more so leaning on
pseudoscience or not science, based on their own feelings and thoughts.
Versus about what the actual medical science says. And I
don't know about you guys, but like, you know, like
(07:25):
listening to like some people who I actually respected, read
their books, you know, evolutionary biologists, things of that nature,
Like you know, you studied this stuff. Like how can
you come up with these like really bad ideas when
it comes to like people who happen to live and
so living their lives as transgender and saying that, oh, well,
(07:46):
this is just a choice, or or I will respect
their pronouns, you know, just because I'm being nice, or
you know, some some dim with it, you know, reasons
why they do the things that they do or say
the things that they say. And it's infuriating because like
what ends up happening is is that if you're calling
yourself a scientist, if you're calling yourself a person who
(08:07):
is committed to empiricism and how it actually shows up,
then you should actually put yourself on the side where
medical science has said that gender firming care is a
thing it should be resupported, and that you know, people
who happen to identify as transgender needs this particular care
(08:28):
in order for them to be able to live an
actual healthy life right, and there's tons and tons of
studies that actually affirm this, But for some reason, it's
leaving the idea of what we should be lean on
to whatever any person wants to feel and interjecting that
(08:50):
into policy. And how we are you know, delegating what
we are doing with folks. I mean, like I think that, like,
you know, one of the stories that we're probably going
to even be just I see is you know, in
there in other institutions of sports where they are going
completely against science and actually keeping away transgender athletes, even
(09:14):
though transgender athletes are like less than one percent of
the entire athletic population that you know, yes, less than that.
Like you know how it's like zero points zero zero
zero zero zero. Yes, it's right, it's it's it's like
like it it doesn't mean like it's like an it's
(09:35):
not even like a blip on the spectrum to the
point where you're just like banning and outlawing. Oh, well,
we have to protect women's sports. I'm like, you're not
protecting women's sports by banning transgender people. Yeah, how about that? Yeah,
pay them more, actually give them. Yeah, if you want
to protect women's sports, how about you want to pay
them equally to the men's sports. How about giving them
(09:56):
equal airtime? How about giving them equal part of those
sponsorsh you know, things of that nature. You know, those
are the ways to protect me in the women's sports,
not necessarily saying oh, well, trans gender people cannot participate,
which is like crazy, But you know, Eli, I'm coming
back to you because I want to ask you what
responsibilities do humanists, skeptics, and secular advocates have in defending
(10:20):
the rights of marginalized communities under political threat.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I am really grateful for this question because I was
talking to flabbergasted backstage a little bit ago about how
to borrow a sentiment from our friend and co host
Rabah Book. I have the luxury of being able to
when being able to step back from sort of like
(10:45):
the political climate. Right. I am a white guy, I'm straight,
I'm sis, I'm a veteran. There are a lot of
characteristics that were working in my favor socially and being
because I I try to be consciously aware of that.
I think that because I'm in this position where I
have asked to add my voice to this discussion, that
(11:09):
that is about groups that are having experiences that I
can't relate to. I think this sort of helps me
remember that what I what I see as my responsibility
to not shut the fuck up just because like, oh man,
I'm so tired of you know, I talk about the
same things every time I'm on the nonproperly you know,
whatever it is. I have the luxury of seeing it
(11:32):
that way because of who I am, And there are
people that don't have that luxury just because of who
they are. And I think I feel that if I
want to, you know, in my position, if I want
to continue adding my voice to this discussion, then I
have the responsibility to continue adding my voice to the
discussion and not just you know, step back when it's
(11:53):
convenient for me. That's that's all I can really input.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I appreciate that. What about you, flabbergasted, same question.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I think that, especially if we're talking about advocates, people
who are not just humanists or skeptics or secular people
in general. We're talking about the advocates, they have the
responsibility to speak out on these issues. They have the
responsibility of being educated and informed on these issues, because
that's what that is an obligation you take on by
being an advocate. By putting yourself in spaces where you're
(12:21):
talking about these issues, you are putting yourself in a
position where you should be informed, you should be knowledgable.
Doesn't mean you're going to get it right all the time,
it doesn't mean you're never going to make a mistake,
but it means that you should be prepared to learn
and adjust and make sure that the information you have
is accurate and not your bias and not a misunderstanding,
and not just a regurgitation of bad rhetoric. And so
(12:44):
we absolutely have a responsibility in doing these things. And
humanism explicitly calls for standing for human rights and social justice.
So I mean, even if you're not an advocate, if
you want to call yourself a humanist, there's a bit
of responsibility there as well, if you say that's what
you hold to, right and standing for social justice, standing
for human rights is part and parcel right. And as
I mentioned before, right sometimes people can only do a
(13:06):
little bit. Not everybody is showing up on the internet
and putting their face out there and saying hey everybody,
But you know, you can talk to your family, you
can talk to your friends, you can push a greater
understanding and advocate on behalf of these people in whatever
space that you can, in whatever space you're comfortable to.
But remaining silence, I don't know, silence can be violence.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So I agree, I totally totally agree. I don't think
that we have the wherewithal to be silent on issues
like this, especially when we are seeing human beings being
threatened just for just because their existence. And I wanted
to share something that I put up and this is
actually on the American Humanists dot org website about humanism
(13:51):
and its aspirations, and I think that this is something
that we can all really you know, garner to and
try to make it appropriate in our lives and pct
to sit as best as possible, especially for those who
call themselves humanists or advocates of humanism. It says that
humanism is progressive philosophy of life that without supernaturalism, affirms
(14:14):
our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal
fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity. The
following manifests a consensus of what we believe knowledge of
the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis.
Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of
(14:37):
unguided evolutionary change. Ethical values are derived from human need
and interest as tested by experience. Life fulfillment emerges from
individual participation. Participation sorry in the service of humane ideals.
Humans are social by nature and find meaning in real relationships.
(15:01):
Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. We work to
uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties
in an open, secular society, and find that humanity has
the ability to progress towards its highest ideals, the responsibility
(15:22):
for our lives and the kind of world in which
we live, our lives, ours and ours long. And I'm
hoping that like a lot of us can actually take
those aspirations of humanism and make them am applicable, especially
when we're looking at our siblings that happen to be
(15:43):
part of marginalized communities where we may experience privilege. All
of us here identify with our gender effort. All of
us happen to have a privilege that we are cis
gender and can live according so some of the policies
that happen to be coming from the top down that
(16:05):
adversely affect transgender people do not affect us. But if
we call ourselves humanists, they do because an injustice anywhere
is an a justice everywhere. And I think that it's
incumbent about all of us to actually lend our voices
to this conversation in order for us to be able
to change it around so that the protections that comes
(16:27):
by human rights alone for people to exist as they
see themselves should be something that they should get to do.
And with that being said, I like for my panelists
to go ahead and get their final thoughts on this story.
I want to start with you Eli, since you introduced
the story, and then Flabbric Acid, I would like for
youad around us out.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I think that the idea that gender affirming care is
like child abuse. I have a lot more written about
this than I'm going to say, but I think it
comes from a couple of the things, and I think
one of them is that a lot of us remember
or have heard stories about people that, like you know,
were interested in a certain you know, hairstyle or clothing
style or music genre or some uh, you know, subculture
(17:10):
that their parents you know, dissuaded them from, encouraged them
to drop it. It's just a phase this and that
and there are certainly cases of like where you're interested
in a thing for a while and then you lose
interest in it, and that happens. And there are certainly
also cases where it wasn't it was actually a thing
that person was interested in, but they sacrificed a piece
(17:31):
of what would have made them happy just to be
accepted by their parents because their parents insisted that it
was wrong and it was bad and that they should
eventually stop doing it, because if they don't eventually stop,
then there's something wrong with it. And I think the
the other part is that when people believe that gender
affirming care for minors is equal to you know, transitional
(17:53):
surgeries or like hormone hormone replacement, which is actually exceedingly
rare in most cases, they that's when they start to
see this as like child abuse. And if they start
to understand it like, no, you can just let kids
express what they like and who they are and support
them through that. And as long as they're having like
(18:14):
actual real love and support and not having who they
are squandered by fake love, then they're gonna this fear
of like they're going to be you know, they're gonna
need therapy when they're older, they're going to have medical regret,
they're gonna have psychological regret, whatever it is, those concerns
go away because they have a loving, caring support system
that you know, supported them to be who they were
(18:37):
the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Indeed, in flabag acid, what are your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Well, I am a member of the queer community myself,
and where I'm a cisgendered man, I don't personally feel
the effects of these policies, but so much of the
rhetoric around these policies, and these policies themselves are being
used to strip people of medical resources, of rights in society,
and it's based all on this absolute misrepresentation of reality
(19:04):
and what trans people are and the experience they live.
And it's ultimately this story that people are pushing out there.
It's like, Oh, we're trying to protect women, Oh we're
trying to protect kids, But they're not. They don't actually
care about protecting women or protecting kids in these situations.
It is about creating an enemy that could be attacked
and can be demonized and can be hounded for political gain.
(19:26):
Because if you actually cared about women, if you actually
cared about kids, all of the reasons why people are
complaining and going online and just screaming into the void.
If you actually cared about those things, these would not
be the steps you take. You would not be ignoring
the starvation of children in our society. You would not
be stripping away women's rights through you know, at the politic,
(19:49):
you know, at the voting booth, right, But you are,
so it's not that you care about these things. You don't.
You care about creating an enemy and using that for
your politic and personal gain and motivation. And honestly, if
you do that, you're a horrible person. And this whole
situation is a bunch of horrible people throwing away the
(20:10):
lives of actual people, harming actual, real people in everyday society.
And it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And yeah, you know, if I could say amen to that,
I will as a secular humanist. Amen men Ara Ramen,
you know Ramen with Ramen bay toppings. Listen, guys, you know,
I just have to say that we're watching the erosion
of civil liberties disguised as parental rights and protection, while
(20:36):
the real goal is control over identity, over autonomy, over
truth itself. And what's more alarming is that these families
represent just of you who could afford to lead more
trans people like I mentioned before, especially those who are
in poor or rural areas, remain trapped under hostile laws
(20:57):
with dwindling protection. Humanism demands that we center compassion, reason,
and dignity for all people. If our society permishes families,
families for loving and supporting their children, then we must
ask what kind of future are we building and who
is it for
We are now living in times where certain populations are
being targeted and scapegoaded, and even laws are being constricted
and conscribed because of who they are. We're talking about
an anti trans climate that is existing and is being
bolstered in today's thought. ELI has the store ELI.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
The US has always been associated, at least in our minds,
as the place that people go for more liberty, more rights,
more opportunities. But for at least these three families and
certainly more, that illusion is kind of lifting, and the
man behind the curtain is being revealed. A transgender youth
in Colorado, a prominent trans advocacy family from Missouri, and
(00:47):
a trans couple from Ohio have all made plans to
leave or indeed have already left the country in the
face of the recent hard shift toward anti trans policies
in the United States. To the exclusion of the Accent
family from Missouri, Kansas City that they that were otherwise unidentified,
not a single subject of this article was comfortable including
(01:10):
their last names to identify themselves lest they to be targeted.
And I think that speaks volumes to the terror and
the fear that they're facing and the reasons that they're
choosing to leave. The story is from NBC News by
joe Yurkaba on June first, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Eli, And I'm going to send my first
question to you. So what does it say about the
state of our democracy when families feel they must flee
the country to protect their children from government policies.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I think it speaks a lot to like a sort
of disillusionment that's starting to happen, kind of like I
mentioned in the intro, like we at least grew up
being taught that like America is the land of liberty.
Like it's this sort of propaganda that like I fell for,
Like I've talked about it before. I'm a veteran. I
felt for that sort of propaganda where like you know, life, liberty,
(02:04):
pursuit of happiness, and like I was ready to like
die because I thought that that was worth dying for.
And the people, I think are starting to become disillusioned
to this end mass and realize that like, like you know,
they taught us. I've seen this meme that says, like
they taught us growing up, They forced us to recite
with Liberty and Justice for All every morning before school
(02:28):
from like five years old until eighteen. But then once
we reach eighteen and we're like, hi, I'm here for
my government mandated liberty and justice, they tell us to
get fucked because that's not it's just like it's fan service.
It's like the patriotic equivalent of like big jiggly anime boobies,
and it doesn't mean anything. There's no substance to it.
It's just there to sound good and make people, you know,
(02:51):
like what they see or hear.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, it's tough, so I know that. Like one of
the things that I was talking about earlier, like BAX
is when I discussed my experience going to nanakon this passin.
One of the panelists of a segment that I actually
watched was a retired professor who happened to be trans,
(03:16):
who spoke about colleagues of THEIRS who were opting to
leave the United States because of the anti trans climate
and them wanting to protect their kids. And I posed
a question to not only that person, but also to
the panels that actually were participating in audience about well,
(03:40):
sometimes leaving the country is not going to be something
that's accessible to every person who happens to identify as
trans or even has trans kids, because uprooting your family
or even yourself to an entire different country is expensive.
And it's not like, you know, people are just like
(04:01):
offering amnesty on the platter to American citizens at this
particular juncture to the point where like, oh, yes, come here,
we'll give you shelter, even though I wish they would,
but that's just not the case at this particular moment
in time, right, so we are forced to, like, you know,
ask ourselves, like what can we do as a you know,
as an electorate, as a constituency, as a community to
(04:25):
protect people who happen to be going through the things
that we're dealing with at this particular moment of time. So,
flatbric acaid, I want to ask you, how do we
as a community challenge the narratives that frames gender affirming
care as dangerous or abusive, especially when this narrative is
(04:46):
shaping national policy.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
That's a really hard one because this narrative is based
so much in either just straight bigotry or an absolute
blatant misunderstanding or refusal to underunderstand what the science actually
says about these issues. And so when we're facing that,
the only thing we can do is just be advocates
(05:09):
for it, speaking out against it, this misunderstanding, against this bigotry.
Anytime we have an opportunity, and sometimes that's uncomfortable and
not everybody's going to be able to speak out in
the same ways. But like if we speak out when
we hear people engaging in this hate speech or in
these dog whistles that we hear around these topics all
day long, and we stop being kind of wishy washy
on the values that we're willing to defend in in
(05:31):
a particular situation, that is how we can start challenging
the exchange. Because these ideas get propagated because people aren't
pushing back against them, people aren't standing up against them,
and so they're going out there being unchallenged. People are saying, well,
I don't want to I don't want to platform a
person who's saying really horrible things, so okay, so then
they're just going out there and they have a platform already.
(05:52):
They're going out there and they're spreading all of this information,
all this misinformation, all of this negative, harmful rhetoric. And
when you see people doing that, if you have an
opportunity to stand up against that and say no. Actually, actually,
as we have discussed, that is a good time to
do it. And it's not just doing it on the
larger scales, it's doing it when you hear it from
your friends and your family members, Like if you I
(06:15):
realize that not everybody has an opportunity if your family
member is saying something that's bigoted and hateful, and you
have to effectively weigh your relationship with them versus defending
the rights and freedoms and well being of people that
you may never know. That's a hard choice to make.
But at the end of the day, the right choice
is going to be the one where you're actually advocating
(06:37):
for what is true and what is actually supported by
the science.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, actually, I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because
I know that we had past shows where we talked
about people within our own community who we had long
time respected and have positively added to the discourse when
it came to people who happened to live their lives secularly,
(07:04):
but when it came to the conversation about transgenderism and
the science behind it, they were more so leaning on
pseudoscience or not science, based on their own feelings and thoughts.
Versus about what the actual medical science says. And I
don't know about you guys, but like, you know, like
(07:25):
listening to like some people who I actually respected, read
their books, you know, evolutionary biologists, things of that nature,
Like you know, you studied this stuff. Like how can
you come up with these like really bad ideas when
it comes to like people who happen to live and
so living their lives as transgender and saying that, oh, well,
(07:46):
this is just a choice, or or I will respect
their pronouns, you know, just because I'm being nice, or
you know, some some dim with it, you know, reasons
why they do the things that they do or say
the things that they say. And it's infuriating because like
what ends up happening is is that if you're calling
yourself a scientist, if you're calling yourself a person who
(08:07):
is committed to empiricism and how it actually shows up,
then you should actually put yourself on the side where
medical science has said that gender firming care is a
thing it should be resupported, and that you know, people
who happen to identify as transgender needs this particular care
(08:28):
in order for them to be able to live an
actual healthy life right, and there's tons and tons of
studies that actually affirm this, But for some reason, it's
leaving the idea of what we should be lean on
to whatever any person wants to feel and interjecting that
(08:50):
into policy. And how we are you know, delegating what
we are doing with folks. I mean, like I think that, like,
you know, one of the stories that we're probably going
to even be just I see is you know, in
there in other institutions of sports where they are going
completely against science and actually keeping away transgender athletes, even
(09:14):
though transgender athletes are like less than one percent of
the entire athletic population that you know, yes, less than that.
Like you know how it's like zero points zero zero
zero zero zero. Yes, it's right, it's it's it's like
like it it doesn't mean like it's like an it's
(09:35):
not even like a blip on the spectrum to the
point where you're just like banning and outlawing. Oh, well,
we have to protect women's sports. I'm like, you're not
protecting women's sports by banning transgender people. Yeah, how about that? Yeah,
pay them more, actually give them. Yeah, if you want
to protect women's sports, how about you want to pay
them equally to the men's sports. How about giving them
(09:56):
equal airtime? How about giving them equal part of those
sponsorsh you know, things of that nature. You know, those
are the ways to protect me in the women's sports,
not necessarily saying oh, well, trans gender people cannot participate,
which is like crazy, But you know, Eli, I'm coming
back to you because I want to ask you what
responsibilities do humanists, skeptics, and secular advocates have in defending
(10:20):
the rights of marginalized communities under political threat.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I am really grateful for this question because I was
talking to flabbergasted backstage a little bit ago about how
to borrow a sentiment from our friend and co host
Rabah Book. I have the luxury of being able to
when being able to step back from sort of like
(10:45):
the political climate. Right. I am a white guy, I'm straight,
I'm sis, I'm a veteran. There are a lot of
characteristics that were working in my favor socially and being
because I I try to be consciously aware of that.
I think that because I'm in this position where I
have asked to add my voice to this discussion, that
(11:09):
that is about groups that are having experiences that I
can't relate to. I think this sort of helps me
remember that what I what I see as my responsibility
to not shut the fuck up just because like, oh man,
I'm so tired of you know, I talk about the
same things every time I'm on the nonproperly you know,
whatever it is. I have the luxury of seeing it
(11:32):
that way because of who I am, And there are
people that don't have that luxury just because of who
they are. And I think I feel that if I
want to, you know, in my position, if I want
to continue adding my voice to this discussion, then I
have the responsibility to continue adding my voice to the
discussion and not just you know, step back when it's
(11:53):
convenient for me. That's that's all I can really input.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I appreciate that. What about you, flabbergasted, same question.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I think that, especially if we're talking about advocates, people
who are not just humanists or skeptics or secular people
in general. We're talking about the advocates, they have the
responsibility to speak out on these issues. They have the
responsibility of being educated and informed on these issues, because
that's what that is an obligation you take on by
being an advocate. By putting yourself in spaces where you're
(12:21):
talking about these issues, you are putting yourself in a
position where you should be informed, you should be knowledgable.
Doesn't mean you're going to get it right all the time,
it doesn't mean you're never going to make a mistake,
but it means that you should be prepared to learn
and adjust and make sure that the information you have
is accurate and not your bias and not a misunderstanding,
and not just a regurgitation of bad rhetoric. And so
(12:44):
we absolutely have a responsibility in doing these things. And
humanism explicitly calls for standing for human rights and social justice.
So I mean, even if you're not an advocate, if
you want to call yourself a humanist, there's a bit
of responsibility there as well, if you say that's what
you hold to, right and standing for social justice, standing
for human rights is part and parcel right. And as
I mentioned before, right sometimes people can only do a
(13:06):
little bit. Not everybody is showing up on the internet
and putting their face out there and saying hey everybody,
But you know, you can talk to your family, you
can talk to your friends, you can push a greater
understanding and advocate on behalf of these people in whatever
space that you can, in whatever space you're comfortable to.
But remaining silence, I don't know, silence can be violence.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So I agree, I totally totally agree. I don't think
that we have the wherewithal to be silent on issues
like this, especially when we are seeing human beings being
threatened just for just because their existence. And I wanted
to share something that I put up and this is
actually on the American Humanists dot org website about humanism
(13:51):
and its aspirations, and I think that this is something
that we can all really you know, garner to and
try to make it appropriate in our lives and pct
to sit as best as possible, especially for those who
call themselves humanists or advocates of humanism. It says that
humanism is progressive philosophy of life that without supernaturalism, affirms
(14:14):
our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal
fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity. The
following manifests a consensus of what we believe knowledge of
the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis.
Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of
(14:37):
unguided evolutionary change. Ethical values are derived from human need
and interest as tested by experience. Life fulfillment emerges from
individual participation. Participation sorry in the service of humane ideals.
Humans are social by nature and find meaning in real relationships.
(15:01):
Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. We work to
uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties
in an open, secular society, and find that humanity has
the ability to progress towards its highest ideals, the responsibility
(15:22):
for our lives and the kind of world in which
we live, our lives, ours and ours long. And I'm
hoping that like a lot of us can actually take
those aspirations of humanism and make them am applicable, especially
when we're looking at our siblings that happen to be
(15:43):
part of marginalized communities where we may experience privilege. All
of us here identify with our gender effort. All of
us happen to have a privilege that we are cis
gender and can live according so some of the policies
that happen to be coming from the top down that
(16:05):
adversely affect transgender people do not affect us. But if
we call ourselves humanists, they do because an injustice anywhere
is an a justice everywhere. And I think that it's
incumbent about all of us to actually lend our voices
to this conversation in order for us to be able
to change it around so that the protections that comes
(16:27):
by human rights alone for people to exist as they
see themselves should be something that they should get to do.
And with that being said, I like for my panelists
to go ahead and get their final thoughts on this story.
I want to start with you Eli, since you introduced
the story, and then Flabbric Acid, I would like for
youad around us out.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I think that the idea that gender affirming care is
like child abuse. I have a lot more written about
this than I'm going to say, but I think it
comes from a couple of the things, and I think
one of them is that a lot of us remember
or have heard stories about people that, like you know,
were interested in a certain you know, hairstyle or clothing
style or music genre or some uh, you know, subculture
(17:10):
that their parents you know, dissuaded them from, encouraged them
to drop it. It's just a phase this and that
and there are certainly cases of like where you're interested
in a thing for a while and then you lose
interest in it, and that happens. And there are certainly
also cases where it wasn't it was actually a thing
that person was interested in, but they sacrificed a piece
(17:31):
of what would have made them happy just to be
accepted by their parents because their parents insisted that it
was wrong and it was bad and that they should
eventually stop doing it, because if they don't eventually stop,
then there's something wrong with it. And I think the
the other part is that when people believe that gender
affirming care for minors is equal to you know, transitional
(17:53):
surgeries or like hormone hormone replacement, which is actually exceedingly
rare in most cases, they that's when they start to
see this as like child abuse. And if they start
to understand it like, no, you can just let kids
express what they like and who they are and support
them through that. And as long as they're having like
(18:14):
actual real love and support and not having who they
are squandered by fake love, then they're gonna this fear
of like they're going to be you know, they're gonna
need therapy when they're older, they're going to have medical regret,
they're gonna have psychological regret, whatever it is, those concerns
go away because they have a loving, caring support system
that you know, supported them to be who they were
(18:37):
the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Indeed, in flabag acid, what are your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Well, I am a member of the queer community myself,
and where I'm a cisgendered man, I don't personally feel
the effects of these policies, but so much of the
rhetoric around these policies, and these policies themselves are being
used to strip people of medical resources, of rights in society,
and it's based all on this absolute misrepresentation of reality
(19:04):
and what trans people are and the experience they live.
And it's ultimately this story that people are pushing out there.
It's like, Oh, we're trying to protect women, Oh we're
trying to protect kids, But they're not. They don't actually
care about protecting women or protecting kids in these situations.
It is about creating an enemy that could be attacked
and can be demonized and can be hounded for political gain.
(19:26):
Because if you actually cared about women, if you actually
cared about kids, all of the reasons why people are
complaining and going online and just screaming into the void.
If you actually cared about those things, these would not
be the steps you take. You would not be ignoring
the starvation of children in our society. You would not
be stripping away women's rights through you know, at the politic,
(19:49):
you know, at the voting booth, right, But you are,
so it's not that you care about these things. You don't.
You care about creating an enemy and using that for
your politic and personal gain and motivation. And honestly, if
you do that, you're a horrible person. And this whole
situation is a bunch of horrible people throwing away the
(20:10):
lives of actual people, harming actual, real people in everyday society.
And it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And yeah, you know, if I could say amen to that,
I will as a secular humanist. Amen men Ara Ramen,
you know Ramen with Ramen bay toppings. Listen, guys, you know,
I just have to say that we're watching the erosion
of civil liberties disguised as parental rights and protection, while
(20:36):
the real goal is control over identity, over autonomy, over
truth itself. And what's more alarming is that these families
represent just of you who could afford to lead more
trans people like I mentioned before, especially those who are
in poor or rural areas, remain trapped under hostile laws
(20:57):
with dwindling protection. Humanism demands that we center compassion, reason,
and dignity for all people. If our society permishes families,
families for loving and supporting their children, then we must
ask what kind of future are we building and who
is it for
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