January 17, 2017 • 40 mins
My free email series for beginner runners: www.freerunningcourse.com
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Our guest today on the podcast is Coach Jay Johnson.
Jay Johnson has coached collegiate, professional and adult runners for more than fifteen years. Jay has also coached three US champions (cross country, indoor track and road racing) and has helped dozens of adult runners PR over distances from 1 to 100 miles.
Jay earned his Masters of Science in Kinesiology and Applied Physiology from the University of Colorado, a degree he started working on while running on the varsity cross country team which is chronicled in the book Running with the Buffaloes.
In this episode, you will learn:- The most common mistakes made by beginner runners.
- Whether or not there is a place for walking in a beginner running program.
- How to best transition from running with walk breaks to continuous running.
- The best way to warm-up before a run.
- What you will notice when you start performing strength and mobility work as part of your running plan.
- Jay's recommended stretching routine.
- Specific workouts to help break through plateaus in your running.
- Why you must run "strides".
- And much more!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Kennedy (00:00):
I'm Mark Kennedy, and this is the Healthenomics
(00:02):
podcast episode 28 with guestcoach Jay Johnson. Welcome back,
everybody. As always, thank youfor listening. Happy New Year to
you and your loved ones. Ifyou're new to the Healthinomics
podcast, this is typically aninterview based show where I
talk about some of the bestminds in running from coaches to
physiotherapists tonutritionists and even some
(00:22):
athletes themselves.
And if you listened to mypodcast before, thanks for
coming back. If you enjoy thepodcast, I'd really love it if
you could leave an iTunesreview. It only takes a minute,
and these reviews really helpthe podcast reach new listeners.
Before we get to today'sinterview with Jay Johnson, I
wanna let you know about my noneto run challenge. The next
challenge will start on04/01/2017.
(00:43):
The challenge is a great way tostay motivated, get support, and
help you make running a habit.And there's some great prizes to
be given away like free runningshoes, t shirts, and lots of
other cool running gear. I wannachallenge you to throw long
distances, fancy running gear,and fast paces out the window.
One month, five runs of fiveminutes or less per week. Are
you in?
(01:03):
Go towww.nonetorun.com/challenge to
sign up. On to today's interviewwith Jay Johnson. Jay Johnson
has coached collegiate,professional, and adult runners
for more than fifteen years. Jayhas also coached three US
champions and has helped dozensof other adult runners reach
personal bests over distancesfrom one to 100 miles. Jay
(01:25):
earned his master's in sciencein kinesiology and applied
physiology from the Universityof Colorado, a degree he started
working on while running on thevarsity cross country team which
is chronicled in the bookRunning with the Buffaloes.
In this episode, you'll learnthe most common mistakes made by
beginner runners, whether or notthere is a place for walking in
a beginner running program, howto best transition from running
(01:46):
with walk breaks to continuousrunning, the best way to warm up
before a run, what you'll noticewhen you start performing
strength and mobility work aspart of your running plan, Jay's
recommended stretching routine,specific workouts to help break
through plateaus in yourrunning, why you must run
strides, and much more. The shownotes for this episode will be
at Healthenomics.com/20eight.There you'll also be able to
(02:09):
download the transcription forthe episode. Enjoy the show,
everybody. Welcome to theHealthenomics podcast.
Boosting your health and fitnessIQ one episode at a time. And
now your host, Mark Kennedy. Heyeverybody. I've got Jay Johnson
here. Jay, welcome to the show.
Jay Johnson (02:29):
Alright. Thanks Mark for having me.
Mark Kennedy (02:31):
Yeah, no problem. I've been, looking forward to,
talking to you for a long time.I've been a big fan of your
work. I've got, your book infront of me and I've, listened
to many of your pod cast whichhave helped me become a better
runner. So anyways, it's greatto have you.
So can we start, maybe you canjust give us a bit of a
background on you to sort ofwhere you grew up, where you
(02:51):
went to college and how you gotinto running and eventually
becoming a running coach?
Jay Johnson (02:58):
Yeah, yeah. I grew up in a little town that's south
of Well, it's not as littleanymore, but it's called Castle
Rock, Colorado, just South ofDenver. But I mean, it was small
town when I grew up there. Mean,fast forward to college, once I
got to college at the Universityof Colorado, all the teammates
(03:22):
kind of ahead of me and behindme and into my class, none of
them had ever run-in likeelementary school summer track
programs. But I did do that,like third grade, fourth grade,
fifth grade.
So yeah, I ran when I wasyounger, and I was a serious
basketball player in highschool. But I think my junior
(03:45):
year, it was pretty the writingwas on the wall that I was going
to be a better runner, andstarted training a little bit
harder. But it was a differentera. I mean, I ran 30 miles a
week roughly in high school,which is almost a joke now for
high school kids. I actuallyhave a camp at the University of
(04:05):
Colorado that I've been doingfor Let's see, this will be our
sixteenth year doing the camp.
It's called the Boulder RunningCamps. Thirty miles a week for a
I mean, I was serious my senioryear of high school. You know,
to think that I mean, I'd done10 miles once in high school and
I'd done eight miles twice.
Mark Kennedy (04:25):
So what are high schoolers running now? Just out
of curiosity.
Jay Johnson (04:29):
Yeah. I I I mean, there's a there's a range. I
would say a serious boy at campisn't running any less than 40
or 45. And we don't have any ofthe teams coming to our camp who
are doing, let's say, sixty fiveand seventy and seventy five
miles a week. At the high schoollevel, you could consider that
kind of a high mileage program.
(04:51):
The one asterisk I'd put on thatis, I think, at least in The US,
a serious high school athleteshould take their summer
training very seriously, and beable to put in more miles then,
because they're not in school.So you might have a woman, a
girl who's running 50 miles aweek during the summer, and then
(05:12):
backs it down to 45 during theschool year. Or a boy who hits
60, maybe even 65 for a coupleweeks in the summer, but is
going to average around 50 or 55during the year. But, yeah, I I
was barely fast enough to run atthe University of Colorado. I
ran four twenty five for 1,600meters, you know, and and and I
(05:34):
I grew up at 5,000 feet ofelevation.
So, you know, had I been at sealevel, that'd be about a four
nineteen probably. Yeah. Likejust barely under 20. Yeah, and
I ran at CU. My coach was theiconic Mark Wetmore, who I think
at this point, it's either himor John McDonald who will go
(05:56):
down as the most successfulcross country coach in the
history of the NCAA.
Mark and Heather coached bothmen and women, I think the nod
has to go to Mark. But when Iwas there at CU, we weren't a
nationally recognized I program,I think the team finished third
(06:20):
my freshman year. So I mean, itwas just becoming a national
contender. And then I ran on theteam that was chronicled in
Running with the Buffaloes, thebook by Chris Lear.
Mark Kennedy (06:32):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (06:33):
And so, Adam Gaucher, who won the NCAA
Championship, was my roommate,my first two years in college.
Know, I'm sure we'll talk aboutmy marathon book at some point,
but I mean, he still lives inthe area and came out to the
book signing. Had anotherteammate come out who lives
(06:54):
local. No, I had two or threeteammates that came to that book
signing. I ran at the Universityof Colorado when Chris Litter
wrote Running with theBuffaloes, I was starting my
Master's in Kinesiology andApplied Physiology.
I knew I wanted to coach, Soafter getting that master's, I
(07:17):
went to The only job I couldget, basically, was at a junior
college in Kansas. But lookingback, it was great because I was
the head coach. So all therecruiting, you know, even
things like fundraising at thissmall community college, I was
able to do those things. Butthen I had the opportunity to go
(07:37):
back to CU and be an assistantcoach for Coach Wetmore for six
years. And then, had our firstchild, and I decided to get out
of college coaching and be astay at home dad, but I also
coached professional runners upin Boulder at that time.
I was living in Denver at thistime, and coaching professional
(08:00):
runners. So, I coached threedifferent US champions. One guy,
Brent Vaughn, one US crosscountry woman, Renee Mativier
Bailey, won a three ks titleindoors. And this guy Fernando
Cabada won the US twenty five kschamps when I was working with
him. And I coached some otherpost collegiate or professional
(08:23):
athletes as well that didn't runquite as well, but still ran at
a high level.
And now, basically, I coachadults online. I have a client
base of about 20 right now. Ifanybody's listening out there
(08:43):
and you want to coach, I've gotroom for a little more, not too
many more. And then I alluded tothe Boulder running camps, which
is this high school running campthat I've been doing for this
will be year 16. And we'reexpanding we have three camps in
Boulder, and then we'reexpanding this year to one camp
(09:05):
in San Diego as well.
Awesome. Yeah, that's sponsoredby Nike. I'm really blessed to
have a really noteworthy Nikesponsorship, where kids get a
shirt, a backpack, and a pair ofshoes from Nike, and it's a
custom backpack, a custom shirtfor our camp, a nice pair of
(09:27):
training shoes. Having thoserelationships has been really
nice for camp.
Mark Kennedy (09:34):
That's great. Thanks for the background, a
little bit of history on you,and give the people a bit more
context as we chat further here.As I mentioned earlier, my
audience is primarily, beginnerrunners, people who are just
sort of starting out in theirjourney. Perhaps maybe they've
run a five or 10 k in the past.So I'm excited to see where our
(09:55):
conversation takes us.
So my first question I guess isfor beginners and when they're
just getting started out, how dothey structure their training to
start? Is a place for walking inthe beginning?
Jay Johnson (10:10):
That's a really good question. Think Jeff
Galloway is the one who's reallypopularized this idea of a run
walk. I've got two clients rightnow out of the 20, so that would
be 10 who are on a run walkprogram. One woman is a woman, I
(10:32):
believe in her mid fifties orso. I should know her age
exactly, but I don't.
But she's fantastic. She'ssomebody who's run many
marathons, but is coming backfrom a pretty significant
injury. So she's doing somethingwhere she might run for seventy
or she might be out there on herfeet for seventy five or eighty
minutes, and she might chunk itwhere she does fifteen or
(10:57):
sixteen minutes of running, andthen a one minute brisk walk.
Now, when you put that alltogether, it's pretty much like
a seventy five or eighty minuterun. Okay?
I have another woman I coachwho's in Minneapolis, who's
younger, but has also had someinjury issues. And she does I
kind of leave it up to her. Shehad some hip issues that came up
(11:20):
back in December. And so forher, over the course of a fifty
minute run, she might only dosix minutes of running and one
minute walking, or ten minutesof running and one minute
walking. What what what I thinkis important and and and this
just a little background too.
I really think you need toprogress through you race a five
(11:40):
k, and then you race a 10 k, andthen you run a half marathon if
that's what your goal is, to runa half marathon. But if your
goal is to run a marathon, youhave to do those three three
distances first. Okay? I I seethis too often. And granted, I'm
the author of a book calledSimple Marathon Training.
Right? So I I believe peopleshould run the marathon if
they're motivated to. But butthat book, most people, will
(12:05):
assume that you've run a halfmarathon already. So to to go
back to kind of this around walkthing, I I think you really have
to keep the walk brisk. And Ithink when you're going from,
let's say, just getting off thecouch or going from more of a
sedentary lifestyle, or maybeyou're somebody who's done some
(12:27):
other athletic activities, butyou just haven't run seriously,
I think it makes a lot of senseto do the run walk.
But I do think that running a 10ks is realistic for most people
and not having to walk that. Theflip side is, you go to the half
marathon, which is over twice asfar, I mean, well over two times
(12:50):
as far. I don't think there'sany shame in walking part of
that race. I coach aninternational athlete as well,
somebody who started the runwalk program, and now runs half
marathons really well. So, toyour listenership, I think if
(13:14):
they're willing to be reallypatient, and by patient, I mean
over the course of three or fourmonths to a year to a year and a
half, you can go from somebodywho isn't a runner to somebody
who can run a full marathon, orexcuse me, a half marathon, or a
marathon too, if that's whatyour goal is.
But I think the half marathondistance is the sweet spot for a
(13:34):
lot of people who are new torunning.
Mark Kennedy (13:37):
Okay, that's great. What about running for
time versus distance in thebeginning? Is time on your feet
the more important piece to lookat in contrast to running
certain distance on a trainingrun?
Jay Johnson (13:51):
Yeah, And I'll use my Simple Marathon Training
book. It's going to be a simplerunning training. Simple running
training is the what's the term?The imprint of the I have a
small publishing company nowthat's going to make multiple
(14:13):
books. So simple runningtraining, this approach is
foundational to simple marathontraining.
The idea is you have one workoutduring the week. Well, subtitle
to the book is The RightTraining for Busy Adults with
Hectic Lives. So assuming yourlistener out here is somebody
who is busy and has a hecticlife, we wanna run by minutes
(14:36):
during most of the runs duringthe work week, okay?
Mark Kennedy (14:40):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (14:40):
Because you wanna know that, hey, I have an hour
for the workout, or You know, Ihave an hour for the run, but I
have to do five minutes to warm,you know, to do the lunge matrix
and leg swings, which we cantalk about. And then I have ten
minutes to do, you know, corestrength, hip strength, and hip
mobility after the run. But atleast I can say, Hey, I need
(15:02):
seventy five minutes to be ableto do all that. And for some
people, it might only be a fortyminute run. So then you do five
minutes, and then forty minutes,and ten minutes, so now you're
at fifty five minutes.
I think on the weekend, runningfor miles makes a lot of sense.
I think that that's a time whereif your loved ones and your
(15:26):
family are bought into youbecoming a better runner, you
can approach and say, Hey,whether it's a five mile run, or
a 10 mile run, or a 20 mile run,you can commit to running that
distance. Think Saturday morningis best for most people, because
you knock out that run and thenhave the rest of your weekend to
do what you want. So it'sminutes during the week, and
(15:53):
then it's a run based on mileageon the weekends.
Mark Kennedy (15:57):
Okay. Then what's the best way or is there any
particular method that you wouldrecommend to facilitate the
transition from someone likethose two women who you're
coaching who are taking walkbreaks to continuous running, or
is it just more of a play it byyour see how you feel type
thing?
Jay Johnson (16:17):
Yeah. These are not your normal runners who hire me
in terms of They're notabnormal, but my point is
they're very serious about theirtraining. So they're chomping at
the bit to do the entire fiftyminutes or eighty minutes or
ninety minutes as a run. Doesthat make sense? If anything,
(16:37):
I'm the one holding them backsaying, We still need to do the
walk breaks, because it's To useCoach Wetmore, my college coach,
used one of his terms, he talksabout the next logical step.
So if you're starting from aplace where you can only run a
mile or two, and you want to runa 10 ks, which is 6.2 miles,
then it makes sense that you'regoing to have some walking
(16:59):
breaks in between when you'redoing your four or five mile
run. But if you take the nextlogical step week after week
after week, you should get towhere you can run five miles and
six miles and seven to eight andso on. Yeah, so I think that if
you're motivated, you're goingto over the course, I mean, it
(17:22):
could be a month, it could betwelve months, but at some
point, you're going to advanceto where you're running the
whole time. And just to give youan example, like, one of the
clients, she's doing about fiftyor fifty five minutes on her
easy day, and she's doing it inchunks of fourteen minutes of
running, and then one minute ofwalking. Well then she can back
(17:45):
down pretty soon to just a fortyminute run with no walking, or
forty five minute run.
So the idea is you build up tomore time on your feet with the
walking, but you've got thosewalking breaks. And folks, when
I say walking, it's a briskwalk. It's not just like you're
running and then all of asudden, you just are walking
slowly. It's a brisk walk tokeep your heart rate up. But
(18:09):
then, at some point, you go backdown to just you know doing a
nice slow run the entire time.
Mark Kennedy (18:15):
Okay. I hear a lot from my readership and
listenership about their commonstruggles and I see some common
mistakes but what are somecommon mistakes you see with
beginner runners?
Jay Johnson (18:29):
I would say in races, going out too fast, I
think is really important in nothaving a sense. Of the things
about simple running training isthat you're going to learn to
run by feel. Now, this isn't anew cut There's basically
nothing in simple runningtraining that's a new concept
that I came up with. I mean,there's maybe two wrinkles we
(18:49):
can talk about that are a littlebit different. But learning to
run by feel, So not using yourGarmin and running at a certain
pace, or not using your heartrate monitor to run at a certain
heart rate, but just learning torun at a comfortable pace.
So let's say you're racing a 10ks, you should be pretty
comfortable not comfortable, butyou should be running very
(19:11):
controlled for the first threeor four miles, and then it
should get exponentially harder.But learning how that sensation,
that feeling of running acontrolled pace, a challenging
pace, but a controlled pace, Ithink is important. I think
that's a mistake that beginningrunners make a lot of times, is
(19:33):
there's music at the start line,and everybody's excited, and
then the gun goes off, and youjust get caught up in what
everybody else is doing. You goout too hard, instead of paying
attention to how your body feelsand running at the appropriate
pace.
Mark Kennedy (19:48):
I know I've done that.
Jay Johnson (19:50):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we all have. I'm
somebody who has only run, Idon't know, maybe a couple road
races in my entire life, becauseI was a high school athlete and
collegiate athlete, but ran aton of races. Whether you're
running a collegiate five ks onthe track, or you're running
(20:12):
your local five ks where there'smusic playing at the start of
the race, it's easy to getcaught up in the energy of that
race. But I do think it's moreso for people running road
races, just the way they kind ofhype up the start line.
It's just easy to end up, quote,going out too hard. There's one
(20:32):
more thing too. I think just ageneral mistake is not being
patient with your training. Youknow, let's say somebody is
going from only running a mileor two a couple times a week to
saying, I want to run a halfmarathon. That's a big jump from
two or three miles all the wayup to 13.1 miles.
(20:53):
And being able to really bepatient with your training and
not be in a hurry, I think ishard. And I think so often you
see new runners being impatientand trying to make that jump too
fast. And then the third thingis, I'm a big believer in non
running work. So there's thisacronym, SAM, S A M, for
(21:15):
strength and mobility, sospecifically core strength, hip
strength, and hip mobility. So Ibelieve you have to do the same
work after every runningworkout.
And the idea is you do that workto strengthen your chassis,
right? Now your engine is youraerobic engine, is your heart
and lungs, and that aerobicmetabolism will improve quicker
(21:40):
than structurally, you know,your muscles and your tendons
and your bones and yourligaments and whatever. You
know, your chassis doesn'timprove and get strong as
quickly as your engine improves.So often, two or three months
into training, you see peoplewith injuries, whether it's an
IT band, or plantar fascia, or apatellar tendon issue, a knee
(22:03):
issue. And it's because they'vegotten fit, which is fantastic,
but their chassis, theirstructure isn't able to handle
their engine.
And so I firmly believe thatyou've got to do non running
work while you're doing therunning work. And a lot of
runners, new runners are prettyopen to this, which is really
nice. It's people who've run-inhigh school and maybe in
(22:27):
college, and are just used toputting in the miles that don't
necessarily like to do that typeof work. But again, in the
simple running training system,you've got to do that work every
day that you run.
Mark Kennedy (22:41):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that work and so that
leads to a couple otherquestions I have I guess. So how
what what is the structure of aworkout look like for a
beginner? I'm assuming I'm I'mthinking you're gonna tell us
it's gonna look similar to youknow, a beginner to what a a pro
does. How does how is itstructured from the warm up to
(23:03):
the run to that strength andmobility work that you say you
should do afterwards? What doesthat all look like in say like a
forty five minute time incrementthat someone might have?
Jay Johnson (23:13):
Yeah, let's say the run is forty five minutes, Okay?
And then we'll say that then wehave an hour to work out. Okay?
So folks, you can look this uponline and find the videos for
this. You do the lunge matrix,so LM for lunge matrix, and you
do leg swings, LS.
So LMLS, lunge matrix and legswings, takes five minutes. And
(23:36):
that's how you need to warm up.And yes, you're listening to an
audio, but you gotta write thisdown and then check it out on
YouTube and see see what youneed to do for your warm up.
That's what need.
Mark Kennedy (23:46):
Sorry, I did interrupt you, but I'll I'll put
the links to all these things inthe show notes as Okay.
Jay Johnson (23:50):
Cool. Cool.
Mark Kennedy (23:51):
Okay. Keep going. Sorry.
Jay Johnson (23:52):
Yeah. Thanks, Mark. So then the idea is then you
have your forty five minutes torun. And like on an easy day,
forty five minutes might be aneasy day for is an easy day for
a lot of that the adults that Icoach because again, like they
only have an hour to work out,so forty five minutes is the
run. Now, I want to come back tothis, the idea of doing strides
in the middle of that run.
But then, you know, you finishwith ten minutes of the SAM work
(24:17):
I'm talking about. So now you dofive minutes warm up, forty five
minutes of running, ten minutesof It is kind of cool down type
work, the way we have Samorganized. If you just follow
the exercises from start tofinish, from minute zero to
minute ten, it's going to bringyour heart rate slowly down.
(24:38):
Yeah, so that's what you havefor sixty minutes. Know, strides
folks, when I say strides, it'sa short amount of running, so it
could be twenty or twenty fiveor thirty seconds at five ks
pace most of the time.
So if you're training for a halfmarathon or a marathon, you just
run at five ks pace. And thenyou'd take and again, you don't
(25:01):
look at your watch necessarily,you just kind of run by feel.
Like, Okay, this kind of feelslike five ks pace. And then you
jog really easy for sixty toninety seconds in between those
strides. And one of the thingsthat I think is novel about the
simple running training, or youknow, that you can read about in
my Simple Marathon Trainingbook, is this idea that you do
(25:21):
the strides as part of thatforty five minutes.
And historically, you know,whether you're a high school
runner or you're a professionalrunner, the idea was you do your
run, and then you do the stridesafterwards. But the problem was,
so often, people would run outof time. A busy adult would run
out of time, and they'd end upskipping the strides. And you
(25:42):
need to do strides a coupletimes per week. For the very
beginning runner, it's not asimportant, but if you're
somebody listening to this whereyou've run some five Ks, run
some 10 Ks, maybe run a halfmarathon, and you're trying to
run a PR, you need to be doingstrides twice a week.
Mark Kennedy (26:00):
When you're doing this SAM or strength and
mobility work in the lungematrix throwing in the strides
there a couple times a week,what changes will a runner
notice to their running? I knowfor me, I guess it's hard to
explain a little bit but to me Ifeel like a stronger runner and
I actually noticed from my wifevideo recording me running, but
(26:25):
my running form changed in agood way I just became a more
efficient stronger runner, butI'd like to hear from you. What
will the runners notice whenthey start doing this work on a
regular basis?
Jay Johnson (26:37):
Yeah, I think what you're going to feel is you just
feel stronger kind ofbiomechanically when you're
doing the SAM work. Strides,I'll touch on that in a second,
when you're doing all this work,it's strengthening your hips,
strengthening your glutes,you're just going to feel
stronger and you're going tofeel better running faster
(26:58):
paces. Does that make sense?
Mark Kennedy (27:00):
That makes Sometimes
Jay Johnson (27:02):
harder workouts kind of feel out of control when
your body's weak. Yeah, that'ssomething that you're just going
to feel like a stronger athlete.Runs with strides, basically,
template of this week would beyour easy runs on Monday and
(27:24):
Friday. And then your workout onTuesday, and then your long run
on Saturday. So you're doing thestrides, for instance, on Monday
before your Tuesday workout, andthat means that you're going to
feel better on Tuesday havingdone some fast running, I e, the
strides on Monday.
Okay? And then the same thingfor the long run on Saturday. If
(27:48):
you're on Friday, you did somestrides and you're running five
k pace, now when you go to dothe long run on Saturday, it
just feels easier. Yeah.
Mark Kennedy (27:58):
I like it. And what about stretching? Where
does that fit in? Do yourecommend stretching? If you do,
should runners fit that in?
Jay Johnson (28:09):
I believe in active isolated stretching or active
isolated flexibility is anotherterm for it. Or the term you
guys are going to remember iscalled rope stretching, where
you use a rope to do somestretching. And my friend Phil
Wharton and his father JimWharton have brought this work
into the running world. They'vebeen doing it for three decades
(28:30):
now, I think. You've got to lookit up.
Mean, this should be in the shownotes. Wharton Health. So look
up Phil Wharton's ropestretching. And there aren't
many examples on YouTube.There's a couple videos of Phil
doing things for running times,now defunct magazine that was
(28:52):
awesome.
But there's still some videosout there. Static stretching,
and let's use an example too.Let's say static stretching is
similar to yoga, where you'reholding these poses for a while
and you're breathing andwhatnot. I think that has less
of a place compared to the ropestretching, but the rope
(29:15):
stretching is something youhaven't seen before. If you're
really serious about being abetter runner, you really should
get to consider doing the ropestretching.
Mark Kennedy (29:23):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (29:24):
And it's something that if I've got 20 clients,
probably 10 of them do it. Andthe 10 that do it, I mean, I'm
going to knock on countertophere because I don't have any
wood. But, know, knock oncountertop, they're all staying
healthy. But I think the ropestretching, you know, if you
were to go back and do some sortof, you know, analysis, there
(29:47):
would be a strong correlationbetween the athletes that do
rope stretching and the athleteswho don't have injuries.
Mark Kennedy (29:53):
I want to ask you too about plateaus. A lot of
people get frustrated when theyplateau, maybe beginner runners
been at it for six months orsomething and they notice they
they stop getting faster, forfor whatever the reason. Is
there any particular workoutsthat you you might recommend for
to help people perhaps getfaster and stronger that they
(30:17):
might not be doing in thebeginning?
Jay Johnson (30:19):
So you're asking for a specific workout to
Mark Kennedy (30:21):
to Yeah, like any or different workouts like
perhaps it's some kind of aninterval workout or I don't know
some kind of creative workoutthat may be different than just
the person going out and youknow blasting out a run with
strides. And maybe it'ssomething with regards to hills.
I'm not sure. I'm just curiousof your thoughts.
Jay Johnson (30:43):
Yeah. I think the progression run is a really
simple workout that people canbe doing. So let's say you do
something like, you know, theone that I use most often with
the clients I work with, they'lldo a ten minute warm up jog and
a ten minute cool down jog, andthey're going to do fifty
(31:04):
minutes of a progression. Sothat fifty minutes is comprised
of twenty minutes at a steadypace, then fifteen minutes a
little bit faster, then tenminutes a little bit faster, and
then five minutes fast butcontrolled. And so you have to
change pace.
You have to speed up threedifferent times in that workout.
And what it teaches you, itteaches you, you know, a couple
(31:27):
things. But the first is to runconservatively so that you have
the ability to speed up. Andnumber two, it teaches you, you
know, how to pay attention tohow your body feels to make
sure, okay, I'm speeding up, butI'm not speeding up too much.
And then that last five minutes,I mean, you have to be really
focused.
You're going be running thefastest pace that you've run
throughout the workout. And Ialways want people to say, I
(31:49):
could have run five moreminutes. You know, you're doing
a five minute segment at theend, but I want them to say, I
could have run even five moreminutes if I had to, meaning
they could have run ten minutesat that final pace.
Mark Kennedy (32:00):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (32:01):
So it's not a hill workout. It's not an interval
workout. If the listenership ismore of the beginning runner,
think there's a lot to be saidfor staying away from the track,
and just being on dirt roads andtrails, and doing progression
runs, and fart licks. You know,I have a workout where we do
(32:23):
four by eight minutes with threeminutes steady running in
between. So that's a solid fortyone minute workout.
You know, you just want to bedoing aerobic workouts. So the
idea that you'd go to, you know,if a lap is 400 meters, and you
do 10 by 400, and you know,stand around for 60. I mean,
(32:46):
that workout has its place inlet's say 5,000 meter training.
But for most people listening tothis, that's not what they
should be doing right away.
Mark Kennedy (32:56):
I want to respect your time. Before I get into
asking you about your new book,again which I have in front of
me, I want to ask you too, whatare some of your favorite
resources or books or podcastsor any running resources other
than yours, which of course I'mgonna recommend everyone. But
(33:17):
any other resources that you canprovide for the runners out
there?
Jay Johnson (33:23):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of good training
books out there. This I I Ireally think that Simple
Marathon Training is the bookyou should buy for this simple
reason. It teaches you thesimple running training method
(33:43):
that works for people, you know,who have a lot going on in their
life and need to keep thingsvery kind of straightforward and
simple from week to week.Obviously, the Daniel's Running
Formula is a great book, but Ido sometimes take issue with,
(34:04):
you know, that everything isbased on paces.
And the problem with that isthat if you wake up, let's say,
on a Tuesday morning, and yourchild was up until midnight
coughing, and you got threehours less sleep, you're not
going to feel as well as younormally do. And so hitting the
paces that are prescribed inthat book isn't going to make as
(34:25):
much sense. One book I would,and I think he's been on your
podcast, Matt Fitzgerald, he hashis book Run. It's not one of
his most popular books. Thetitle is Run.
And the subtitle is, I thinkit's called The Mind Body Method
(34:46):
of Running by Feel. But it's allabout running by feel. So that
would be the number one book Iwould recommend. And then this
one probably doesn't fit yourlistenership, but for people who
run multiple marathons and havethe ability to put in a lot of
miles, I think Advanced MarathonTraining is a great book.
Mark Kennedy (35:07):
Whose book is that? Whose book is that one?
Jay Johnson (35:09):
So that's Pete Fitzsinger and Scott Douglas.
Mark Kennedy (35:13):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (35:14):
Have written that book, and it's, you know, it's
at least 10 years old, maybeit's 15 years old, but it's
really good information. Andthen, a book that I have to
mention, but I don't think youshould go out and get it, Arthur
Lidyard's book, Running to theTop, or the copy I have is
called Running the Lidyard Way.It's basically the same book. If
(35:38):
somebody's into the history oftraining, that's a great book,
but it's kind of hard todecipher. Unlike, let's say, the
two books, I've you know, theDaniel's Running Formula where
it says, do this on this day.
Mark Kennedy (35:54):
Mhmm.
Jay Johnson (35:54):
The linear books I mean, says do do a, b, and c on,
you know, Monday, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday, but it's
harder to understand how thattraining works.
Mark Kennedy (36:04):
And then your book came out, was it a month or two
ago?
Jay Johnson (36:10):
Yeah, it came out November 1. Yeah, 11/01/2016.
Yeah.
Mark Kennedy (36:14):
Okay. And it's called Simple Marathon Training,
the Right Training for BusyAdults with Hectic Lives.
Jay Johnson (36:22):
Right. I think the subtitle is what's really
important, that if you're a busyadult with a hectic life, which
I'm going to assume a prettylarge percentage of the
listenership is, the training ismade for you. And let's compare
that to, let's say, AdvancedMarathon Training, which is a
(36:43):
great book, but has peoplerunning seventy, eighty miles a
week in some of their plans. Alot of people can't handle that.
Mark Kennedy (36:51):
And would you say your book, and I think it would,
but even if you're notconsidering running a marathon,
I think this book gives you allthe tools and everything to even
move from a beginner to a 10 kor a half marathon.
Jay Johnson (37:06):
Yeah. I'm working on the half marathon book as we
speak. The first forty I'mlooking at the book right here.
Is it 45 or 49? The first fortynine pages of the book of simple
marathon training are going tobe very similar to the first
forty nine pages of simple halfmarathon training, which will
(37:29):
then, in a couple years, be verysimilar to simple five ks and 10
ks training.
Does that make sense? I mean,there's some core principles I
believe in, such as running byfeel, such as doing the lunge
matrix and the leg swings, doingthe SAM work after your run,
doing a weekly long run, doing,focusing on your aerobic system.
(37:51):
So this goes back to these trackworkouts or hill workouts.
You're not doing track workoutsor hill workouts, you're doing
things like a progression run,like we talked about. Doing
strides in the middle of yourrun on your easy days.
So there's basically the book, Italk about eight ingredients.
And then this is I'm glad youbrought the stretching thing up
(38:12):
because it's eight ingredientsplus one. And the plus one is
the rope stretching. Yeah, sothose are principles that fit
somebody running a five ks asmuch as they fit somebody
running a marathon.
Mark Kennedy (38:26):
Awesome. And where else can people connect with you
online, should they want toreach out or check out more of
your work?
Jay Johnson (38:33):
Yeah. I think my website, I mean, it's pretty
easy to remember. It'sCoachJJohnson and that's JAY, so
CoachJJohnson.com. If you go tothat site, then you can sign up
for my newsletter And I put outmy newsletter twice per week on
Thursday and Sunday, and I feellike I put my best workout via
(38:57):
my newsletter. I also host apodcast called the Run Faster
Podcast.
So if you like listening torunning podcasts, check out the
Run Faster Podcast. I mean,Mark, I'm going through years on
iTunes right now, looking at it,and you've definitely had some
high powered guests. So I'mgoing have to work on my guest
(39:18):
list.
Mark Kennedy (39:19):
You've got some good ones. I have to tell you
now, the interview you did withDoctor. Trent Stellingwerf was a
game changer for me because thattotally changed my mindset and
focused me more on fueling formy second marathon and it was a
game changer. Felt so muchbetter in my run and my time was
(39:40):
much better as well.
Jay Johnson (39:41):
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Well well,
so so coach j johnson dot com,the Run Faster Podcast, and and
folks, feel free to email me.The it's coachjjohnson@gmail.
And then also on on Instagramand Twitter, it's coachjjohnson.
So I did a decent job of lockingit all down to coachjjohnson's.
Mark Kennedy (40:03):
That's awesome. Well, Jay, thanks again for
coming on to the show and we allappreciate your time and
expertise and maybe you'll comeback again once you get the half
marathon and or at least yourhalf marathon book done and we
can chat some more.
Jay Johnson (40:20):
Yeah, spring twenty seventeen, Mark. I would love to
be on again and talk about thehalf marathon.
Mark Kennedy (40:25):
Awesome. Thanks again, Jay.
Jay Johnson (40:27):
Okay. Thanks, Mark.
Mark Kennedy (40:29):
Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics
Podcast atwww.healthinomics.com.
I'm Mark Kennedy, and this is the Healthenomics
(00:02):
podcast episode 28 with guestcoach Jay Johnson. Welcome back,
everybody. As always, thank youfor listening. Happy New Year to
you and your loved ones. Ifyou're new to the Healthinomics
podcast, this is typically aninterview based show where I
talk about some of the bestminds in running from coaches to
physiotherapists tonutritionists and even some
(00:22):
athletes themselves.
And if you listened to mypodcast before, thanks for
coming back. If you enjoy thepodcast, I'd really love it if
you could leave an iTunesreview. It only takes a minute,
and these reviews really helpthe podcast reach new listeners.
Before we get to today'sinterview with Jay Johnson, I
wanna let you know about my noneto run challenge. The next
challenge will start on04/01/2017.
(00:43):
The challenge is a great way tostay motivated, get support, and
help you make running a habit.And there's some great prizes to
be given away like free runningshoes, t shirts, and lots of
other cool running gear. I wannachallenge you to throw long
distances, fancy running gear,and fast paces out the window.
One month, five runs of fiveminutes or less per week. Are
you in?
(01:03):
Go towww.nonetorun.com/challenge to
sign up. On to today's interviewwith Jay Johnson. Jay Johnson
has coached collegiate,professional, and adult runners
for more than fifteen years. Jayhas also coached three US
champions and has helped dozensof other adult runners reach
personal bests over distancesfrom one to 100 miles. Jay
(01:25):
earned his master's in sciencein kinesiology and applied
physiology from the Universityof Colorado, a degree he started
working on while running on thevarsity cross country team which
is chronicled in the bookRunning with the Buffaloes.
In this episode, you'll learnthe most common mistakes made by
beginner runners, whether or notthere is a place for walking in
a beginner running program, howto best transition from running
(01:46):
with walk breaks to continuousrunning, the best way to warm up
before a run, what you'll noticewhen you start performing
strength and mobility work aspart of your running plan, Jay's
recommended stretching routine,specific workouts to help break
through plateaus in yourrunning, why you must run
strides, and much more. The shownotes for this episode will be
at Healthenomics.com/20eight.There you'll also be able to
(02:09):
download the transcription forthe episode. Enjoy the show,
everybody. Welcome to theHealthenomics podcast.
Boosting your health and fitnessIQ one episode at a time. And
now your host, Mark Kennedy. Heyeverybody. I've got Jay Johnson
here. Jay, welcome to the show.
Jay Johnson (02:29):
Alright. Thanks Mark for having me.
Mark Kennedy (02:31):
Yeah, no problem. I've been, looking forward to,
talking to you for a long time.I've been a big fan of your
work. I've got, your book infront of me and I've, listened
to many of your pod cast whichhave helped me become a better
runner. So anyways, it's greatto have you.
So can we start, maybe you canjust give us a bit of a
background on you to sort ofwhere you grew up, where you
(02:51):
went to college and how you gotinto running and eventually
becoming a running coach?
Jay Johnson (02:58):
Yeah, yeah. I grew up in a little town that's south
of Well, it's not as littleanymore, but it's called Castle
Rock, Colorado, just South ofDenver. But I mean, it was small
town when I grew up there. Mean,fast forward to college, once I
got to college at the Universityof Colorado, all the teammates
(03:22):
kind of ahead of me and behindme and into my class, none of
them had ever run-in likeelementary school summer track
programs. But I did do that,like third grade, fourth grade,
fifth grade.
So yeah, I ran when I wasyounger, and I was a serious
basketball player in highschool. But I think my junior
(03:45):
year, it was pretty the writingwas on the wall that I was going
to be a better runner, andstarted training a little bit
harder. But it was a differentera. I mean, I ran 30 miles a
week roughly in high school,which is almost a joke now for
high school kids. I actuallyhave a camp at the University of
(04:05):
Colorado that I've been doingfor Let's see, this will be our
sixteenth year doing the camp.
It's called the Boulder RunningCamps. Thirty miles a week for a
I mean, I was serious my senioryear of high school. You know,
to think that I mean, I'd done10 miles once in high school and
I'd done eight miles twice.
Mark Kennedy (04:25):
So what are high schoolers running now? Just out
of curiosity.
Jay Johnson (04:29):
Yeah. I I I mean, there's a there's a range. I
would say a serious boy at campisn't running any less than 40
or 45. And we don't have any ofthe teams coming to our camp who
are doing, let's say, sixty fiveand seventy and seventy five
miles a week. At the high schoollevel, you could consider that
kind of a high mileage program.
(04:51):
The one asterisk I'd put on thatis, I think, at least in The US,
a serious high school athleteshould take their summer
training very seriously, and beable to put in more miles then,
because they're not in school.So you might have a woman, a
girl who's running 50 miles aweek during the summer, and then
(05:12):
backs it down to 45 during theschool year. Or a boy who hits
60, maybe even 65 for a coupleweeks in the summer, but is
going to average around 50 or 55during the year. But, yeah, I I
was barely fast enough to run atthe University of Colorado. I
ran four twenty five for 1,600meters, you know, and and and I
(05:34):
I grew up at 5,000 feet ofelevation.
So, you know, had I been at sealevel, that'd be about a four
nineteen probably. Yeah. Likejust barely under 20. Yeah, and
I ran at CU. My coach was theiconic Mark Wetmore, who I think
at this point, it's either himor John McDonald who will go
(05:56):
down as the most successfulcross country coach in the
history of the NCAA.
Mark and Heather coached bothmen and women, I think the nod
has to go to Mark. But when Iwas there at CU, we weren't a
nationally recognized I program,I think the team finished third
(06:20):
my freshman year. So I mean, itwas just becoming a national
contender. And then I ran on theteam that was chronicled in
Running with the Buffaloes, thebook by Chris Lear.
Mark Kennedy (06:32):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (06:33):
And so, Adam Gaucher, who won the NCAA
Championship, was my roommate,my first two years in college.
Know, I'm sure we'll talk aboutmy marathon book at some point,
but I mean, he still lives inthe area and came out to the
book signing. Had anotherteammate come out who lives
(06:54):
local. No, I had two or threeteammates that came to that book
signing. I ran at the Universityof Colorado when Chris Litter
wrote Running with theBuffaloes, I was starting my
Master's in Kinesiology andApplied Physiology.
I knew I wanted to coach, Soafter getting that master's, I
(07:17):
went to The only job I couldget, basically, was at a junior
college in Kansas. But lookingback, it was great because I was
the head coach. So all therecruiting, you know, even
things like fundraising at thissmall community college, I was
able to do those things. Butthen I had the opportunity to go
(07:37):
back to CU and be an assistantcoach for Coach Wetmore for six
years. And then, had our firstchild, and I decided to get out
of college coaching and be astay at home dad, but I also
coached professional runners upin Boulder at that time.
I was living in Denver at thistime, and coaching professional
(08:00):
runners. So, I coached threedifferent US champions. One guy,
Brent Vaughn, one US crosscountry woman, Renee Mativier
Bailey, won a three ks titleindoors. And this guy Fernando
Cabada won the US twenty five kschamps when I was working with
him. And I coached some otherpost collegiate or professional
(08:23):
athletes as well that didn't runquite as well, but still ran at
a high level.
And now, basically, I coachadults online. I have a client
base of about 20 right now. Ifanybody's listening out there
(08:43):
and you want to coach, I've gotroom for a little more, not too
many more. And then I alluded tothe Boulder running camps, which
is this high school running campthat I've been doing for this
will be year 16. And we'reexpanding we have three camps in
Boulder, and then we'reexpanding this year to one camp
(09:05):
in San Diego as well.
Awesome. Yeah, that's sponsoredby Nike. I'm really blessed to
have a really noteworthy Nikesponsorship, where kids get a
shirt, a backpack, and a pair ofshoes from Nike, and it's a
custom backpack, a custom shirtfor our camp, a nice pair of
(09:27):
training shoes. Having thoserelationships has been really
nice for camp.
Mark Kennedy (09:34):
That's great. Thanks for the background, a
little bit of history on you,and give the people a bit more
context as we chat further here.As I mentioned earlier, my
audience is primarily, beginnerrunners, people who are just
sort of starting out in theirjourney. Perhaps maybe they've
run a five or 10 k in the past.So I'm excited to see where our
(09:55):
conversation takes us.
So my first question I guess isfor beginners and when they're
just getting started out, how dothey structure their training to
start? Is a place for walking inthe beginning?
Jay Johnson (10:10):
That's a really good question. Think Jeff
Galloway is the one who's reallypopularized this idea of a run
walk. I've got two clients rightnow out of the 20, so that would
be 10 who are on a run walkprogram. One woman is a woman, I
(10:32):
believe in her mid fifties orso. I should know her age
exactly, but I don't.
But she's fantastic. She'ssomebody who's run many
marathons, but is coming backfrom a pretty significant
injury. So she's doing somethingwhere she might run for seventy
or she might be out there on herfeet for seventy five or eighty
minutes, and she might chunk itwhere she does fifteen or
(10:57):
sixteen minutes of running, andthen a one minute brisk walk.
Now, when you put that alltogether, it's pretty much like
a seventy five or eighty minuterun. Okay?
I have another woman I coachwho's in Minneapolis, who's
younger, but has also had someinjury issues. And she does I
kind of leave it up to her. Shehad some hip issues that came up
(11:20):
back in December. And so forher, over the course of a fifty
minute run, she might only dosix minutes of running and one
minute walking, or ten minutesof running and one minute
walking. What what what I thinkis important and and and this
just a little background too.
I really think you need toprogress through you race a five
(11:40):
k, and then you race a 10 k, andthen you run a half marathon if
that's what your goal is, to runa half marathon. But if your
goal is to run a marathon, youhave to do those three three
distances first. Okay? I I seethis too often. And granted, I'm
the author of a book calledSimple Marathon Training.
Right? So I I believe peopleshould run the marathon if
they're motivated to. But butthat book, most people, will
(12:05):
assume that you've run a halfmarathon already. So to to go
back to kind of this around walkthing, I I think you really have
to keep the walk brisk. And Ithink when you're going from,
let's say, just getting off thecouch or going from more of a
sedentary lifestyle, or maybeyou're somebody who's done some
(12:27):
other athletic activities, butyou just haven't run seriously,
I think it makes a lot of senseto do the run walk.
But I do think that running a 10ks is realistic for most people
and not having to walk that. Theflip side is, you go to the half
marathon, which is over twice asfar, I mean, well over two times
(12:50):
as far. I don't think there'sany shame in walking part of
that race. I coach aninternational athlete as well,
somebody who started the runwalk program, and now runs half
marathons really well. So, toyour listenership, I think if
(13:14):
they're willing to be reallypatient, and by patient, I mean
over the course of three or fourmonths to a year to a year and a
half, you can go from somebodywho isn't a runner to somebody
who can run a full marathon, orexcuse me, a half marathon, or a
marathon too, if that's whatyour goal is.
But I think the half marathondistance is the sweet spot for a
(13:34):
lot of people who are new torunning.
Mark Kennedy (13:37):
Okay, that's great. What about running for
time versus distance in thebeginning? Is time on your feet
the more important piece to lookat in contrast to running
certain distance on a trainingrun?
Jay Johnson (13:51):
Yeah, And I'll use my Simple Marathon Training
book. It's going to be a simplerunning training. Simple running
training is the what's the term?The imprint of the I have a
small publishing company nowthat's going to make multiple
(14:13):
books. So simple runningtraining, this approach is
foundational to simple marathontraining.
The idea is you have one workoutduring the week. Well, subtitle
to the book is The RightTraining for Busy Adults with
Hectic Lives. So assuming yourlistener out here is somebody
who is busy and has a hecticlife, we wanna run by minutes
(14:36):
during most of the runs duringthe work week, okay?
Mark Kennedy (14:40):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (14:40):
Because you wanna know that, hey, I have an hour
for the workout, or You know, Ihave an hour for the run, but I
have to do five minutes to warm,you know, to do the lunge matrix
and leg swings, which we cantalk about. And then I have ten
minutes to do, you know, corestrength, hip strength, and hip
mobility after the run. But atleast I can say, Hey, I need
(15:02):
seventy five minutes to be ableto do all that. And for some
people, it might only be a fortyminute run. So then you do five
minutes, and then forty minutes,and ten minutes, so now you're
at fifty five minutes.
I think on the weekend, runningfor miles makes a lot of sense.
I think that that's a time whereif your loved ones and your
(15:26):
family are bought into youbecoming a better runner, you
can approach and say, Hey,whether it's a five mile run, or
a 10 mile run, or a 20 mile run,you can commit to running that
distance. Think Saturday morningis best for most people, because
you knock out that run and thenhave the rest of your weekend to
do what you want. So it'sminutes during the week, and
(15:53):
then it's a run based on mileageon the weekends.
Mark Kennedy (15:57):
Okay. Then what's the best way or is there any
particular method that you wouldrecommend to facilitate the
transition from someone likethose two women who you're
coaching who are taking walkbreaks to continuous running, or
is it just more of a play it byyour see how you feel type
thing?
Jay Johnson (16:17):
Yeah. These are not your normal runners who hire me
in terms of They're notabnormal, but my point is
they're very serious about theirtraining. So they're chomping at
the bit to do the entire fiftyminutes or eighty minutes or
ninety minutes as a run. Doesthat make sense? If anything,
(16:37):
I'm the one holding them backsaying, We still need to do the
walk breaks, because it's To useCoach Wetmore, my college coach,
used one of his terms, he talksabout the next logical step.
So if you're starting from aplace where you can only run a
mile or two, and you want to runa 10 ks, which is 6.2 miles,
then it makes sense that you'regoing to have some walking
(16:59):
breaks in between when you'redoing your four or five mile
run. But if you take the nextlogical step week after week
after week, you should get towhere you can run five miles and
six miles and seven to eight andso on. Yeah, so I think that if
you're motivated, you're goingto over the course, I mean, it
(17:22):
could be a month, it could betwelve months, but at some
point, you're going to advanceto where you're running the
whole time. And just to give youan example, like, one of the
clients, she's doing about fiftyor fifty five minutes on her
easy day, and she's doing it inchunks of fourteen minutes of
running, and then one minute ofwalking. Well then she can back
(17:45):
down pretty soon to just a fortyminute run with no walking, or
forty five minute run.
So the idea is you build up tomore time on your feet with the
walking, but you've got thosewalking breaks. And folks, when
I say walking, it's a briskwalk. It's not just like you're
running and then all of asudden, you just are walking
slowly. It's a brisk walk tokeep your heart rate up. But
(18:09):
then, at some point, you go backdown to just you know doing a
nice slow run the entire time.
Mark Kennedy (18:15):
Okay. I hear a lot from my readership and
listenership about their commonstruggles and I see some common
mistakes but what are somecommon mistakes you see with
beginner runners?
Jay Johnson (18:29):
I would say in races, going out too fast, I
think is really important in nothaving a sense. Of the things
about simple running training isthat you're going to learn to
run by feel. Now, this isn't anew cut There's basically
nothing in simple runningtraining that's a new concept
that I came up with. I mean,there's maybe two wrinkles we
(18:49):
can talk about that are a littlebit different. But learning to
run by feel, So not using yourGarmin and running at a certain
pace, or not using your heartrate monitor to run at a certain
heart rate, but just learning torun at a comfortable pace.
So let's say you're racing a 10ks, you should be pretty
comfortable not comfortable, butyou should be running very
(19:11):
controlled for the first threeor four miles, and then it
should get exponentially harder.But learning how that sensation,
that feeling of running acontrolled pace, a challenging
pace, but a controlled pace, Ithink is important. I think
that's a mistake that beginningrunners make a lot of times, is
(19:33):
there's music at the start line,and everybody's excited, and
then the gun goes off, and youjust get caught up in what
everybody else is doing. You goout too hard, instead of paying
attention to how your body feelsand running at the appropriate
pace.
Mark Kennedy (19:48):
I know I've done that.
Jay Johnson (19:50):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we all have. I'm
somebody who has only run, Idon't know, maybe a couple road
races in my entire life, becauseI was a high school athlete and
collegiate athlete, but ran aton of races. Whether you're
running a collegiate five ks onthe track, or you're running
(20:12):
your local five ks where there'smusic playing at the start of
the race, it's easy to getcaught up in the energy of that
race. But I do think it's moreso for people running road
races, just the way they kind ofhype up the start line.
It's just easy to end up, quote,going out too hard. There's one
(20:32):
more thing too. I think just ageneral mistake is not being
patient with your training. Youknow, let's say somebody is
going from only running a mileor two a couple times a week to
saying, I want to run a halfmarathon. That's a big jump from
two or three miles all the wayup to 13.1 miles.
(20:53):
And being able to really bepatient with your training and
not be in a hurry, I think ishard. And I think so often you
see new runners being impatientand trying to make that jump too
fast. And then the third thingis, I'm a big believer in non
running work. So there's thisacronym, SAM, S A M, for
(21:15):
strength and mobility, sospecifically core strength, hip
strength, and hip mobility. So Ibelieve you have to do the same
work after every runningworkout.
And the idea is you do that workto strengthen your chassis,
right? Now your engine is youraerobic engine, is your heart
and lungs, and that aerobicmetabolism will improve quicker
(21:40):
than structurally, you know,your muscles and your tendons
and your bones and yourligaments and whatever. You
know, your chassis doesn'timprove and get strong as
quickly as your engine improves.So often, two or three months
into training, you see peoplewith injuries, whether it's an
IT band, or plantar fascia, or apatellar tendon issue, a knee
(22:03):
issue. And it's because they'vegotten fit, which is fantastic,
but their chassis, theirstructure isn't able to handle
their engine.
And so I firmly believe thatyou've got to do non running
work while you're doing therunning work. And a lot of
runners, new runners are prettyopen to this, which is really
nice. It's people who've run-inhigh school and maybe in
(22:27):
college, and are just used toputting in the miles that don't
necessarily like to do that typeof work. But again, in the
simple running training system,you've got to do that work every
day that you run.
Mark Kennedy (22:41):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that work and so that
leads to a couple otherquestions I have I guess. So how
what what is the structure of aworkout look like for a
beginner? I'm assuming I'm I'mthinking you're gonna tell us
it's gonna look similar to youknow, a beginner to what a a pro
does. How does how is itstructured from the warm up to
(23:03):
the run to that strength andmobility work that you say you
should do afterwards? What doesthat all look like in say like a
forty five minute time incrementthat someone might have?
Jay Johnson (23:13):
Yeah, let's say the run is forty five minutes, Okay?
And then we'll say that then wehave an hour to work out. Okay?
So folks, you can look this uponline and find the videos for
this. You do the lunge matrix,so LM for lunge matrix, and you
do leg swings, LS.
So LMLS, lunge matrix and legswings, takes five minutes. And
(23:36):
that's how you need to warm up.And yes, you're listening to an
audio, but you gotta write thisdown and then check it out on
YouTube and see see what youneed to do for your warm up.
That's what need.
Mark Kennedy (23:46):
Sorry, I did interrupt you, but I'll I'll put
the links to all these things inthe show notes as Okay.
Jay Johnson (23:50):
Cool. Cool.
Mark Kennedy (23:51):
Okay. Keep going. Sorry.
Jay Johnson (23:52):
Yeah. Thanks, Mark. So then the idea is then you
have your forty five minutes torun. And like on an easy day,
forty five minutes might be aneasy day for is an easy day for
a lot of that the adults that Icoach because again, like they
only have an hour to work out,so forty five minutes is the
run. Now, I want to come back tothis, the idea of doing strides
in the middle of that run.
But then, you know, you finishwith ten minutes of the SAM work
(24:17):
I'm talking about. So now you dofive minutes warm up, forty five
minutes of running, ten minutesof It is kind of cool down type
work, the way we have Samorganized. If you just follow
the exercises from start tofinish, from minute zero to
minute ten, it's going to bringyour heart rate slowly down.
(24:38):
Yeah, so that's what you havefor sixty minutes. Know, strides
folks, when I say strides, it'sa short amount of running, so it
could be twenty or twenty fiveor thirty seconds at five ks
pace most of the time.
So if you're training for a halfmarathon or a marathon, you just
run at five ks pace. And thenyou'd take and again, you don't
(25:01):
look at your watch necessarily,you just kind of run by feel.
Like, Okay, this kind of feelslike five ks pace. And then you
jog really easy for sixty toninety seconds in between those
strides. And one of the thingsthat I think is novel about the
simple running training, or youknow, that you can read about in
my Simple Marathon Trainingbook, is this idea that you do
(25:21):
the strides as part of thatforty five minutes.
And historically, you know,whether you're a high school
runner or you're a professionalrunner, the idea was you do your
run, and then you do the stridesafterwards. But the problem was,
so often, people would run outof time. A busy adult would run
out of time, and they'd end upskipping the strides. And you
(25:42):
need to do strides a coupletimes per week. For the very
beginning runner, it's not asimportant, but if you're
somebody listening to this whereyou've run some five Ks, run
some 10 Ks, maybe run a halfmarathon, and you're trying to
run a PR, you need to be doingstrides twice a week.
Mark Kennedy (26:00):
When you're doing this SAM or strength and
mobility work in the lungematrix throwing in the strides
there a couple times a week,what changes will a runner
notice to their running? I knowfor me, I guess it's hard to
explain a little bit but to me Ifeel like a stronger runner and
I actually noticed from my wifevideo recording me running, but
(26:25):
my running form changed in agood way I just became a more
efficient stronger runner, butI'd like to hear from you. What
will the runners notice whenthey start doing this work on a
regular basis?
Jay Johnson (26:37):
Yeah, I think what you're going to feel is you just
feel stronger kind ofbiomechanically when you're
doing the SAM work. Strides,I'll touch on that in a second,
when you're doing all this work,it's strengthening your hips,
strengthening your glutes,you're just going to feel
stronger and you're going tofeel better running faster
(26:58):
paces. Does that make sense?
Mark Kennedy (27:00):
That makes Sometimes
Jay Johnson (27:02):
harder workouts kind of feel out of control when
your body's weak. Yeah, that'ssomething that you're just going
to feel like a stronger athlete.Runs with strides, basically,
template of this week would beyour easy runs on Monday and
(27:24):
Friday. And then your workout onTuesday, and then your long run
on Saturday. So you're doing thestrides, for instance, on Monday
before your Tuesday workout, andthat means that you're going to
feel better on Tuesday havingdone some fast running, I e, the
strides on Monday.
Okay? And then the same thingfor the long run on Saturday. If
(27:48):
you're on Friday, you did somestrides and you're running five
k pace, now when you go to dothe long run on Saturday, it
just feels easier. Yeah.
Mark Kennedy (27:58):
I like it. And what about stretching? Where
does that fit in? Do yourecommend stretching? If you do,
should runners fit that in?
Jay Johnson (28:09):
I believe in active isolated stretching or active
isolated flexibility is anotherterm for it. Or the term you
guys are going to remember iscalled rope stretching, where
you use a rope to do somestretching. And my friend Phil
Wharton and his father JimWharton have brought this work
into the running world. They'vebeen doing it for three decades
(28:30):
now, I think. You've got to lookit up.
Mean, this should be in the shownotes. Wharton Health. So look
up Phil Wharton's ropestretching. And there aren't
many examples on YouTube.There's a couple videos of Phil
doing things for running times,now defunct magazine that was
(28:52):
awesome.
But there's still some videosout there. Static stretching,
and let's use an example too.Let's say static stretching is
similar to yoga, where you'reholding these poses for a while
and you're breathing andwhatnot. I think that has less
of a place compared to the ropestretching, but the rope
(29:15):
stretching is something youhaven't seen before. If you're
really serious about being abetter runner, you really should
get to consider doing the ropestretching.
Mark Kennedy (29:23):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (29:24):
And it's something that if I've got 20 clients,
probably 10 of them do it. Andthe 10 that do it, I mean, I'm
going to knock on countertophere because I don't have any
wood. But, know, knock oncountertop, they're all staying
healthy. But I think the ropestretching, you know, if you
were to go back and do some sortof, you know, analysis, there
(29:47):
would be a strong correlationbetween the athletes that do
rope stretching and the athleteswho don't have injuries.
Mark Kennedy (29:53):
I want to ask you too about plateaus. A lot of
people get frustrated when theyplateau, maybe beginner runners
been at it for six months orsomething and they notice they
they stop getting faster, forfor whatever the reason. Is
there any particular workoutsthat you you might recommend for
to help people perhaps getfaster and stronger that they
(30:17):
might not be doing in thebeginning?
Jay Johnson (30:19):
So you're asking for a specific workout to
Mark Kennedy (30:21):
to Yeah, like any or different workouts like
perhaps it's some kind of aninterval workout or I don't know
some kind of creative workoutthat may be different than just
the person going out and youknow blasting out a run with
strides. And maybe it'ssomething with regards to hills.
I'm not sure. I'm just curiousof your thoughts.
Jay Johnson (30:43):
Yeah. I think the progression run is a really
simple workout that people canbe doing. So let's say you do
something like, you know, theone that I use most often with
the clients I work with, they'lldo a ten minute warm up jog and
a ten minute cool down jog, andthey're going to do fifty
(31:04):
minutes of a progression. Sothat fifty minutes is comprised
of twenty minutes at a steadypace, then fifteen minutes a
little bit faster, then tenminutes a little bit faster, and
then five minutes fast butcontrolled. And so you have to
change pace.
You have to speed up threedifferent times in that workout.
And what it teaches you, itteaches you, you know, a couple
(31:27):
things. But the first is to runconservatively so that you have
the ability to speed up. Andnumber two, it teaches you, you
know, how to pay attention tohow your body feels to make
sure, okay, I'm speeding up, butI'm not speeding up too much.
And then that last five minutes,I mean, you have to be really
focused.
You're going be running thefastest pace that you've run
throughout the workout. And Ialways want people to say, I
(31:49):
could have run five moreminutes. You know, you're doing
a five minute segment at theend, but I want them to say, I
could have run even five moreminutes if I had to, meaning
they could have run ten minutesat that final pace.
Mark Kennedy (32:00):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (32:01):
So it's not a hill workout. It's not an interval
workout. If the listenership ismore of the beginning runner,
think there's a lot to be saidfor staying away from the track,
and just being on dirt roads andtrails, and doing progression
runs, and fart licks. You know,I have a workout where we do
(32:23):
four by eight minutes with threeminutes steady running in
between. So that's a solid fortyone minute workout.
You know, you just want to bedoing aerobic workouts. So the
idea that you'd go to, you know,if a lap is 400 meters, and you
do 10 by 400, and you know,stand around for 60. I mean,
(32:46):
that workout has its place inlet's say 5,000 meter training.
But for most people listening tothis, that's not what they
should be doing right away.
Mark Kennedy (32:56):
I want to respect your time. Before I get into
asking you about your new book,again which I have in front of
me, I want to ask you too, whatare some of your favorite
resources or books or podcastsor any running resources other
than yours, which of course I'mgonna recommend everyone. But
(33:17):
any other resources that you canprovide for the runners out
there?
Jay Johnson (33:23):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of good training
books out there. This I I Ireally think that Simple
Marathon Training is the bookyou should buy for this simple
reason. It teaches you thesimple running training method
(33:43):
that works for people, you know,who have a lot going on in their
life and need to keep thingsvery kind of straightforward and
simple from week to week.Obviously, the Daniel's Running
Formula is a great book, but Ido sometimes take issue with,
(34:04):
you know, that everything isbased on paces.
And the problem with that isthat if you wake up, let's say,
on a Tuesday morning, and yourchild was up until midnight
coughing, and you got threehours less sleep, you're not
going to feel as well as younormally do. And so hitting the
paces that are prescribed inthat book isn't going to make as
(34:25):
much sense. One book I would,and I think he's been on your
podcast, Matt Fitzgerald, he hashis book Run. It's not one of
his most popular books. Thetitle is Run.
And the subtitle is, I thinkit's called The Mind Body Method
(34:46):
of Running by Feel. But it's allabout running by feel. So that
would be the number one book Iwould recommend. And then this
one probably doesn't fit yourlistenership, but for people who
run multiple marathons and havethe ability to put in a lot of
miles, I think Advanced MarathonTraining is a great book.
Mark Kennedy (35:07):
Whose book is that? Whose book is that one?
Jay Johnson (35:09):
So that's Pete Fitzsinger and Scott Douglas.
Mark Kennedy (35:13):
Okay.
Jay Johnson (35:14):
Have written that book, and it's, you know, it's
at least 10 years old, maybeit's 15 years old, but it's
really good information. Andthen, a book that I have to
mention, but I don't think youshould go out and get it, Arthur
Lidyard's book, Running to theTop, or the copy I have is
called Running the Lidyard Way.It's basically the same book. If
(35:38):
somebody's into the history oftraining, that's a great book,
but it's kind of hard todecipher. Unlike, let's say, the
two books, I've you know, theDaniel's Running Formula where
it says, do this on this day.
Mark Kennedy (35:54):
Mhmm.
Jay Johnson (35:54):
The linear books I mean, says do do a, b, and c on,
you know, Monday, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday, but it's
harder to understand how thattraining works.
Mark Kennedy (36:04):
And then your book came out, was it a month or two
ago?
Jay Johnson (36:10):
Yeah, it came out November 1. Yeah, 11/01/2016.
Yeah.
Mark Kennedy (36:14):
Okay. And it's called Simple Marathon Training,
the Right Training for BusyAdults with Hectic Lives.
Jay Johnson (36:22):
Right. I think the subtitle is what's really
important, that if you're a busyadult with a hectic life, which
I'm going to assume a prettylarge percentage of the
listenership is, the training ismade for you. And let's compare
that to, let's say, AdvancedMarathon Training, which is a
(36:43):
great book, but has peoplerunning seventy, eighty miles a
week in some of their plans. Alot of people can't handle that.
Mark Kennedy (36:51):
And would you say your book, and I think it would,
but even if you're notconsidering running a marathon,
I think this book gives you allthe tools and everything to even
move from a beginner to a 10 kor a half marathon.
Jay Johnson (37:06):
Yeah. I'm working on the half marathon book as we
speak. The first forty I'mlooking at the book right here.
Is it 45 or 49? The first fortynine pages of the book of simple
marathon training are going tobe very similar to the first
forty nine pages of simple halfmarathon training, which will
(37:29):
then, in a couple years, be verysimilar to simple five ks and 10
ks training.
Does that make sense? I mean,there's some core principles I
believe in, such as running byfeel, such as doing the lunge
matrix and the leg swings, doingthe SAM work after your run,
doing a weekly long run, doing,focusing on your aerobic system.
(37:51):
So this goes back to these trackworkouts or hill workouts.
You're not doing track workoutsor hill workouts, you're doing
things like a progression run,like we talked about. Doing
strides in the middle of yourrun on your easy days.
So there's basically the book, Italk about eight ingredients.
And then this is I'm glad youbrought the stretching thing up
(38:12):
because it's eight ingredientsplus one. And the plus one is
the rope stretching. Yeah, sothose are principles that fit
somebody running a five ks asmuch as they fit somebody
running a marathon.
Mark Kennedy (38:26):
Awesome. And where else can people connect with you
online, should they want toreach out or check out more of
your work?
Jay Johnson (38:33):
Yeah. I think my website, I mean, it's pretty
easy to remember. It'sCoachJJohnson and that's JAY, so
CoachJJohnson.com. If you go tothat site, then you can sign up
for my newsletter And I put outmy newsletter twice per week on
Thursday and Sunday, and I feellike I put my best workout via
(38:57):
my newsletter. I also host apodcast called the Run Faster
Podcast.
So if you like listening torunning podcasts, check out the
Run Faster Podcast. I mean,Mark, I'm going through years on
iTunes right now, looking at it,and you've definitely had some
high powered guests. So I'mgoing have to work on my guest
(39:18):
list.
Mark Kennedy (39:19):
You've got some good ones. I have to tell you
now, the interview you did withDoctor. Trent Stellingwerf was a
game changer for me because thattotally changed my mindset and
focused me more on fueling formy second marathon and it was a
game changer. Felt so muchbetter in my run and my time was
(39:40):
much better as well.
Jay Johnson (39:41):
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Well well,
so so coach j johnson dot com,the Run Faster Podcast, and and
folks, feel free to email me.The it's coachjjohnson@gmail.
And then also on on Instagramand Twitter, it's coachjjohnson.
So I did a decent job of lockingit all down to coachjjohnson's.
Mark Kennedy (40:03):
That's awesome. Well, Jay, thanks again for
coming on to the show and we allappreciate your time and
expertise and maybe you'll comeback again once you get the half
marathon and or at least yourhalf marathon book done and we
can chat some more.
Jay Johnson (40:20):
Yeah, spring twenty seventeen, Mark. I would love to
be on again and talk about thehalf marathon.
Mark Kennedy (40:25):
Awesome. Thanks again, Jay.
Jay Johnson (40:27):
Okay. Thanks, Mark.
Mark Kennedy (40:29):
Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics
Podcast atwww.healthinomics.com.
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