February 22, 2017 • 55 mins
For the show notes and the full transcript to this episode head over to:
https://www.healthynomics.com/30
To join the April 2017 None to Run Challenge:
http://www.nonetorun.com/challenge
Today's show
Shannon is both an athlete and a coach. She competed in the equestrian sport of Three Day Eventing for fifteen years. Like a triathlon on a horse!
She then got interested in the sport of running and has raced distances ranging from the 800m to ultra trail events.
An interest in the psychology of achievement led her to completing an undergraduate degree in psychology and a Masters in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania.
Through Hypo2 Sport and B78 Coaching, Shannon now coaches athletes in several different sports to improve their performance.
In this episode we talk about:- How to approach setting goals for your running.
- How to get the best out of any run.
- How to combat negative thoughts so you can run feeling energized and motivated.
- Ways to become a more patient runner.
- How to enhance your mental toughness.
- How to develop a game plan for every run or race.
- The importance of mindfulness.
- Strategies to help you cope with and come back from an injury or setback.
- Shannon’s recommended books
- And much more!
Enjoy the show.
Cheers,
Mark
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Mark Kennedy, and this is the Healthinomics
(00:02):
podcast episode 30 with guestShannon Thompson. Welcome back,
everybody. What's up? As always,thanks for listening. If you're
new to the Healthinomicspodcast, this is typically an
interview based show where Italk to some of the best minds
in running From coaches tophysiotherapists to nutritious
and even the athletesthemselves.
And if you listened to thepodcast before, thanks for
(00:23):
coming back. Before we get totoday's interview with Shannon
Thompson, I wanna let you knowabout my none to run challenge.
The next challenge starts on04/01/2017. The challenge is a
great way to get motivated, getsupport, and to help you make
running a habit. And there'ssome great prizes to be given
away like free running shoes, tshirts, strength training
gadgets, and lots of other coolrunning gear.
(00:43):
I want to challenge you to throwlong distances and fast paces
out the window. One month, fiveruns of five minutes or more per
week. Are you in? Go tononetorun.com/challenge to start
up. That'sn0net0run.com/challenge Onto
today's interview with ShannonThompson.
(01:04):
Shannon is both an athlete and acoach. She completed in the
equestrian sport of three dayeventing for fifteen years like
a triathlon but on a horse. Thenshe got interested in the sport
of running and has raceddistances from 800 meters to
ultra trail events. An interestin the psychology of achievement
led her to completing anundergraduate degree in
psychology and a master's inapplied positive psychology from
(01:25):
the University of Pennsylvania.Through Hypo two Sport and B78
Coaching Shannon now coachesathletes in several different
sports to improve theirperformance.
In this episode we talk abouthow to approach setting goals
for your running, how to get thebest out of any run, how to
combat negative thoughts so youcan run feeling energized and
motivated, ways to become a morepatient runner, how to enhance
(01:46):
your mental toughness, how todevelop a game plan for every
run or race, the importance ofmindfulness, strategies to help
you cope and come back from aninjury or setback, Shannon's
recommended books, and much muchmore. The show notes for this
episode will be atHealthenomics.com/thirty. There
you'll also be able to downloadthe transcript for the episode.
(02:07):
Enjoy the show everybody.Welcome to the Healthinomics
Podcast.
Boosting your health and fitnessIQ one episode at a time. And
now your host, Mark Kennedy.Welcome to Healthinomics
Podcast, Shannon.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. No problem. Excited to talk. As I mentioned,
to you earlier in some emailsand our pre chat, my focus is on
helping runners, mostly beginnerrunners or people who are just
getting back into it. So I'mreally excited to to dive into
some topics, that you're anexpert in.
So I like to start off most ofmy chats with, having the guest,
(02:47):
tell the listeners a little bitabout yourself, sort of where
you grew up, went to university,your history with running, and
then what you're up to now.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Sure. Sure. Well, I grew up in Vancouver, British
Columbia. And actually, thismight be surprising in that I I
actually spent the most most ofmy youth up until I was about
29, riding horsesprofessionally, which is quite a
lot quite a lot different thanrunning. I competed in a sport
(03:17):
called three day eventing, whichis kind of like a horse
triathlon, and I I rodeprofessionally and coached until
I was well, coached into myearly thirties, but I changed my
focus from being an athlete toto psychology when I was 29.
And and then I basically waseager to become a real adult.
(03:38):
So, for reasons I don't knownow, but no, I, I went to I did
my undergrad pretty much asquickly as possible, through
Thompson Rivers University. Idid a bachelor's, degree in
psychology through ThompsonRivers and the reason for
Thompson Rivers was they allowedfor a lot of work to be done
online and it also allowed for,other universities courses to be
(04:03):
applied to their degree. So, Idid I went through Toms Rivers,
but I used Simon FraserUniversity, Langara College, as
well to comprise my degree. Andthen I attended the University
of Pennsylvania, which is inPhiladelphia, and I did a
Master's in Applied PositivePsychology, which is basically
(04:25):
the science of human flourishingand high achievement.
And then I graduated a year anda half ago from Penn, and now I
work in Flagstaff, Arizona. I doa lot for Northern Arizona
University, which is a divisionone school down here, and I
(04:45):
cover about 10 sports here. And,yeah. And then I do work for a
company called Hypo2 Sport,which handles altitude training
camps for international teams.And as you might know, Flagstaff
is very much a hotbed forendurance athletes because it's
at 7,000 feet.
So it's a real neat spot to tospend time around elite runners.
(05:10):
It's the other runners andswimmers are probably the
primary clientele at HypoTube.And, and then as far as my own
background in running, I Istarted distance running when I
was about 22. And I I startedbecause I'd always loved running
and I was really going through atough patch with equestrian. And
(05:31):
I had friends who were runnersand a boyfriend who was a
runner.
And, so it was just encouragingme to do something I think I'd
always wanted to do. And I Ihave had a couple of coaches
over the years and I've I Iwould say I've always been a
hardworking amateur. You know,it was always import it was my
running was important to me. Ithink from having been a serious
(05:54):
athlete in another sport, that'skind of how I knew how to do
sport. But you know, I neverbecame an I've never become an
elite runner or anything likethat, but I have worked hard at
it and raced anywhere from 800meters up to long trail stuff
and I ran my first marathon thisyear.
So, I've got a fair bit ofexperience on road track and
trail now. And, I just it is Ijust love it and keep I keep
(06:18):
working at my running now.That's I guess my primary, my I
hate calling it a hobby. I feellike it's I feel like it's more
important to me than a hobby,but, you know, compared to a lot
of the elites that I work with,I really have to call it that
because what I do doesn't doesnot that what I put into it does
not measure what they put intoit. So it's a it's a terrific
meaningful activity for me.
Let's call it that.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah. It's all it's all in perspective. Right? Yep.
Well, that's great.
Well, thanks for giving us a bitof that background. Just a few
little follow-up questions justfrom what I heard there. How did
you get interested so much inthe psychology end of things?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, as a as a competitor and as a coach in
equestrian sport, interestingly,equestrian sport is a very
technical sport which, unlessyou spend some time in it, it
might be a little bitsurprising. And it's also a very
mental sport. Again, perhapssurprising unless you spend some
time in it. So I really did asan athlete and as a coach
(07:15):
witness the power of the mindover performance. And as someone
who performance was verymeaningful for, It was
fascinating to me how the mindcould impact performance and I
realized that if I could helpathletes direct their mind in a
helpful way, I really could helpthem seek the performances that
(07:35):
they're seeking.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And you said you you work with quite a a wide range
of different athletes. Is thereany particular groups of
athletes that you really likeworking with? Any particular
sport?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I definitely I always call the runners my passion
project. I think because myself,I am a runner, so that's
probably largely to do with it.I I also find runners I like
their they're kind ofstereotypically, let's say quiet
and complex, and I enjoy tryingto figure them out. So so I'd
(08:11):
say runners are yeah, let's callrunners my passion project.
Another group that I really findfun are divers.
We have a group of divers hereat NAU, and, their personalities
are very different from fromrunners. They're they're a bit
more light I would say that theycan be a bit more light hearted,
and I do find it fascinating howthey can be afraid every day in
(08:34):
practice and do the things thatthey do. Like it they really do
deal with fear every day. So Iwould say after the runners, the
divers perhaps are a favorite.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh, that's cool. And Yeah. Which you said you you
just ran your first marathonrecently. Which marathon did you
run?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I run I run the Philadelphia Marathon.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh, cool. How was that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
It was wonderful because I went to school in
Philadelphia, so I have a realattachment to it. And, I
retraining leading up to itwasn't great because I had I was
sick for quite a while actuallyand I wasn't going to race. And
then I just thought, oh man, Idon't wanna waste, I don't wanna
wait another whole year to run amarathon. So I I have other
things I like to do in thespring and the summer, and I and
(09:16):
I really wanted to to raise myfirst marathon in Philly. So, it
was not the time I would havewanted, but I was very committed
to running a smart race becauseif I work in sports psychology,
I have to run a smart race.
So, I was happy with how I ranthe race, and it was so that
(09:37):
made it a great experience. AndI hope it bodes well for future
marathons. I hope it sets me up.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I thought I guess is what I wanna say.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah. They always say I guess that that first
marathon, I've only done two butanyways, the first one it was
like a real sort of experiment.You're just happy to do it. And
then the second one is like,okay, you kind of you just know
what to expect. And, yeah, Ijust found for the second one,
you know, it's not that I wasfitter.
I was just much better prepared,knew what to expect, and and
(10:08):
then smarter as a result aswell. So, anyways, congrats for
doing your your first marathon.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Thanks. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So as I mentioned, I wanna dive into some topics that
you're an expert in for beginnerrunners. And I know for a lot of
beginners that I hear or getemails from, it's not
necessarily always the runningthat holds them back from,
making running a part of theirlife. It's the mental aspect
they struggle with. So, anyways,that'll be our focus for today's
(10:35):
chat. And in doing a little bitof research on your work, I I
just wanna focus in on a few,different areas of the mental
aspect and feel free to to toadd in whatever information you
want.
But the first being, just indoing a bit of research on your
website, is preparation. Andthat, I guess, involves, you
(10:57):
know, perhaps maybe goal settingfor people, you know, they're
starting a program. How does thewhole goal setting process work
and what are some tips thatthese, runners can, approach
goal setting to, help themprepare to become sort of
consistent runner and a runnerfor life?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah. No, that's a great that's a great question.
When it comes to when it comesto goal setting for running, I
always I always I recommendgaining the insight from a
running coach if possible orsomebody who is very
knowledgeable about the abouttraining, but how that can be
(11:36):
done safely, keeping you injuryfree, and could who can help you
choose a goal that's realisticand it'll be satisfying, like,
so that would always be my firstbit of advice for somebody who
is is looking, to set goals withrunning. I feel like so I'll
(11:58):
quickly touch on, I'm going totouch on goal setting a little
bit, but I think I might have aslightly a slight slight
sidetrack that might be evenmore useful when it comes to
preparation that might be more,slightly different for people to
hear about, but I think isreally interesting. So so I
always you always encouragepeople to set goals based upon
(12:18):
the acronym SMART, which I thinkmany people have heard before.
So that means choosing goalsthat are specific, measurable,
action oriented, realistic, andtime bound. Because it's a goal
like saying, just want to be abetter runner. Oh, it's a great
goal. We tend to make greaterprogress if we are specific,
(12:41):
measurable, it's realistic, andif we set ourselves a deadline
for it. That those would be someguidelines for for setting
goals.
And then I guess the other tip Iwould say about setting goals
are if you if you pick a goalthat at first might seem like a
little bit of a stretch, if youcan create some some small
(13:01):
stepping stone goals on route tothat goal, all of a sudden it
doesn't seem like such a stretchand that can that can be a way
to help you to to actuallyattain some of these larger
goals. What I what I reallyemphasize though when it comes
to preparation is figuring outwhat kind of a focus you want to
(13:24):
have during important parts ofyour of your runner or of your
race. Now I should ask you, arewe should we be talking racing
here or should is this mostlytraining or
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It could be a bit of both. I mean, some people might
be training, perhaps for theirfirst five or 10 k, but, you
know, the focus maybe notnecessarily on just performance,
but perhaps just getting the youknow, having the mental aptitude
to to do all their training andand be able to, you know,
accomplish these goals. So, Imean but some of them obviously
(13:59):
yeah. Some of these people, thatto to listen for sure, they're
doing some races.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I'll tell you my general my general philosophy on
getting the best out of any run.So our physical body is closely
related to our brain, obviously,regarding anything that we do.
And I think as runners, we'realways looking for the most
(14:26):
positive, enjoyable experiencewhile still pushing our
boundaries and getting fitter. Ithink that probably describes
most runners, whether you'recompetitive or you're not
competitive. Now, I think anexperience that we can all
relate to no matter what levelof a runner you are is that of
feeling fatigued enough youdon't know that you can complete
(14:49):
a distance or hit a specifictime in a race.
And one of the wonderfulchallenges of running, of
course, is is kind of thatmoment of challenging yourself
and get in and kind of risingperhaps to being a little
tougher or a little braver thanyou maybe thought you could be.
(15:10):
I think that's one of the realrewards of running and one of
the real, wonderful challengesof it. And we all I think often
want to want to run faster andfarther typically. So one thing
to understand is that the brainis very closely related to the
body when it comes to itsability to perform and its
willingness to perform. And ourstress system plays a large role
(15:34):
in whether our brain will allowour body to continue to perform
at a certain level or even workharder, you know, like in a
race.
So the more we can keep our mindin a positive orientation, the
more or a relaxed or neutralorientation, the more likely our
body is going to be able tocontinue to maintain a pace or
(15:57):
an effort or even increase thatthat pace or effort. So I always
I try to give athletes methodsto maintain that positive or at
least neutral and relaxedperspective. And the other
interesting thing about ourbrain is that it tends to
remember what we repeatedly do.So, if we run frequently and we
(16:23):
are always out there like inthat moment when we're working
really hard and we're always outthere thinking to ourselves,
yeah, this is what I signed upfor like I am this this just
hurts and this is hard, but I'mimproving and this is improving
my life. Like if we create a ifwe think that consciously
regularly, we'll develop neuralpathways that will make it
(16:43):
easier and easier for us tothink that in the future.
Whereas if we approach runningand we you know we start to get
tired and we start to getfearful and negative and dread
it and hate it and start tothink horrible thoughts about
ourselves, we will create neuralpathways that'll make it easier
for us to think that way. Kindagot me like we, it's important
(17:05):
what we think because the morewe think of any given thing, the
more likely we are to think atthe next time. Does that make
sense?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, totally makes sense to me. I'm just thinking
my own training, for instance,like, you know, I've definitely
gone on runs where, you know,it's I'm running at a a
challenging pace and you'relike, yeah, it's hard, but,
yeah, you you feel good about itbecause you're sweating, you're
breathing hard, you're burningoff some stress, and you know
you're gonna get some gains ofit. And then on the flip side,
(17:33):
I've had runs where, yeah, I getout there and I'm not holding
the pace I think I should beholding, and you think I'm not
fit enough. I'm yeah. You'reyou're dreading the rest of the
run.
So, I mean, I I've also hadthose same feelings within the
same run. So are those twodifferent feelings?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah. Definitely. That happens. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I think what weoften don't realize is that if
we if we if we cave to thosenegative feelings, you basically
become better at feelingnegative feelings, you know, and
they come more often and theycome more regularly. So like if
(18:10):
I'm a like back if I think backto my to my marathon, I was I
believed that for my firstmarathon that I was going to lay
down the mental scaffoldingregarding how my brain was going
to see marathons based upon howI chose to run that marathon and
(18:30):
how I chose to to experience itwhile I was out there. So so
when it comes to preparationthis is and this is what I
believe this is what I believefor all well basically honestly
all experience that if we talkif we talk about running all all
runs and all races so, what I dowith the athletes that I work
(18:50):
with and this is relevant nomatter what level you're at is,
I advise them to look ahead atthe run or the race that they're
planning to do and anticipatelike where where they might need
to have a planned focus so thatwhen they if they encounter a
little bit of struggle, theyhave a plan for what they're
(19:11):
going to think about whilethey're struggling because
because we can if we have ifwe're prepared in advance with
what we're going to think aboutand we are diligent and we work
really hard at maintaining ahelpful focus, while we're out
running especially when we'rerunning at a level that's a
higher exertion, we'll train ourbrain to see that moment of
(19:32):
higher level exertion in acertain way so that we get
better and better and better atit, you know.
So we're likely to see we'relikely to see greater progress
and we're less likely to have areal catastrophic day if we're
very diligent and we we inadvance plan we're going to
think plan what we're going tothink about in a given moment
and then we diligently keep thatfocus and say to ourselves what
(19:55):
we plan to say to ourselveswhile we're out there. That that
is primarily what I mean bypreparation is looking ahead to
the to the run of the race andhaving a plan for what you're
gonna think about in key momentsand, you and practicing using
that focus in key moments duringtraining, or during every run.
(20:17):
Is it is, yeah, that that'sprimarily what I mean by
preparation.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
That's great. And, just a question. So to retarget
those thoughts when you're maybesome negative thoughts come in
your mind, how do you how do youretarget those thoughts to
something positive? Or, like, doyou have, like, a a mantra you
would maybe repeat to yourself?Or, are you just, you know, like
what's what's the process ofwhat do you how are you
retargeting your thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah. No, that's a that's a good question. So it's
important to come up with it'sit's important to come up with
what at least you're gonna tryin advance because when we're
struggling, it's much harder tothink of something positive.
Like, in fact, it's not it'slike if we're struggling,
science has shown our ability tothink positive thoughts is
(21:04):
actually impaired. So we wannawe wanna think about this in
advance.
That's one of the key things. Soone way that I've done this with
athletes is, so I'll sit downwith them beforehand and we
break down. Usually it's it's arace we break down, into into
thirds or quarters and I'll talkin thirds in this case. So a
(21:25):
prime example would be the firstthird of someone's run -in
advance they decide they'regoing to be patient. So what I
mean by that is like one classicproblem that runners often have
is they go out too fast toosoon.
So, so one real common thing isthat runners are all going to be
patient in the first third oftheir run of their race, which
(21:45):
means typically means for themthey're going a little slower
than they think they need to.Like they're truly being patient
and waiting before they putforward, a lot of effort. Then
the second the second third oftheir run again in advance, plan
that they're going to begrateful. They plan that they're
(22:06):
going to be grateful forsomething. Now for some people
that is, grateful for the theability to be out running.
Maybe it's grateful. Maybe itexpands beyond running. Maybe
it's grateful for their family.Maybe it's grateful for their
pet. Maybe it's grateful fortheir running partner.
Maybe it's the beautiful placethey live. That one you know
it's got to be something thatfeels genuine to that person.
(22:29):
But, gratitude is a positiveemotion that's related to love
and, love actually when we're inlove, the part of our brain
responsible for pain and fear isinhibited. So that's why I often
use gratitude, for runnersbecause if you can feel
gratitude while you're outthere, you you know, the bit of
(22:49):
a performance enhancer or itcould be a bit of a performance
enhancer or make the experience,a whole lot easier on you. And
then one of the key things isyou said like, well, how do we
make ourselves be positive?
And in that moment, like in thatmoment when you're you're
choosing to see things a certainway, you're choosing to think
(23:14):
grateful thoughts as opposed tothoughts that are about how much
this hurts, how unfit you are,how much slurry you are than so
and so, you know, those arethese are real common thoughts.
It actually can be a bit of afight. Like, it can be a real
fight to to keep thinking thosethoughts. But the important
thing is to commit and to fightit out. Like, fight it out.
(23:35):
Find to be grateful for. Do notlet yourself slide because if
you slide back you into thenegative thoughts, just practice
that negative habit again andyou strengthen the neural
connections that help keep youthinking negatively. So funny,
it becomes a fight to thinkpositively. It's a choice in a
fight sometimes, but the coolthing is is if you if you carry
(23:57):
out that fight a couple times itgets way easier. Like I'd say
it's probably hard for two runsprobably hard for two, but third
you're starting to starting toget easier, to think positively.
And then the same goes for thethe third the third third of how
I often divide up runs forrunners. And oftentimes that
third third, I ask them toremember a time when they were
(24:20):
tougher than they thought theycould be. You know, they're
like, if they're a runner whoraces, maybe they remember back
to that race where they reallydug in and they they were braver
than they thought they could be.And they literally like will
either pretend to pick up thatversion of themselves as like a
companion out there with them orthey'll pretend to be that
(24:40):
person in the moment. You know,they'll kind of choose to embody
that part of themselves.
And again, certainly that momentcan also be a bit of a fight,
but I do stress that you fightwith you do you commit you do
everything you can use to holdit even if it feels goofy and
even if it feels fake, you'llreap the benefits in the future.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
That's great. Yeah. A lot of that, I mean, I haven't
practiced, in that methodspecifically, but, some of those
thoughts, you know, as I thinkback to some of my training and
runs, I wow, definitely thegratitude is coming to it,
especially in really long runsbecause you gotta you have a lot
of time to think out there. And,yeah, you find your mind
(25:19):
wandering all over the place,but then you you start thinking
about, you know, something youare thankful for. You're
thinking about your family orsomething.
And then all of a sudden, yeah,all of a sudden your effort
seems a bit, easier. Yeah. Youjust that positive mindset, all
of sudden your run switches likethat and it's like it's like
you've got some newfound energy.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yep. Absolutely. Yep. It's it's very useful.
Gratitude.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah. That's great. So let's move on to the to the
next section I wanna talk aboutand that was mental toughness
which you talked a little bitabout in in that section and you
I read an article you wroterecently, I believe it was in
Competitor Magazine and therewas a quote in there that I
liked. It says where you talkedabout, I also urge people to
explore what toughness means tothem.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
What does that mean? And you also talked about how
mental toughness is teachableand malleable. So I'd love to
hear your thoughts on toughness.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, no, that's a great, that's a fun topic. I've
been talking about it a lotright now, least recently, funny
how things come up. You know, abunch of different sources. So,
I think that one of the greatestmisconceptions about sports
psychology, or even about thebest athletes, is that their
(26:38):
that mental toughness, is alwayslike a real hard tough almost
macho kind of response. Knowthat it's that it's it we've
envisioned ourselves of beingreally brave and hard and
(26:59):
forceful or aggressive, likethat's what toughness is, or
unbothered, you know, like I'mreally resilient.
And actually mental toughness, Ikind of hate the word honestly,
I probably shouldn't have evenused the word. It's like
resilience is probably a betterword. Emotional or mental
(27:19):
agility is probably anotherbetter word. And the reason I
say that is because there's lotsof athletes that don't respond
to the aggressive, brave, go getthem energy behind the word
toughness. Lots of athletes, ifyou make them go be tough and,
(27:40):
like, go get that person aheadof you or you get hard on
yourself, a lot of times thatwill, kind of freak out their
stress system a little bit andit will have the opposite effect
than what you're seeking.
Like, too much tension of anykind can tell the body that
things are not okay and thatthis level of exertion is not
(28:02):
okay and that we ought to slowdown. So I find that lots of
athletes we can't just say be betougher, you know, be braver, be
more resilient, take the pain,you know, the pain cave, all
those kinds of things. Often,like I find one one strategy
that is really useful for somerunners is is just to like
(28:24):
notice the emotions you'reexperiencing and sometimes it's
just plain noticing them likethat's quite a mindfulness
approach just noticing them andacknowledging acknowledging them
can improve their performance tothe extent that like when they
when they when you noticeemotion and you acknowledge
emotion, if you can acknowledgeit in a non judgmental way, you
(28:45):
kind of you tell your brain thatit's not that big a deal, you
know, and you you're brain says,oh, oh, I know I'm breathing
fast and, my legs hurt a littlebit and we're noticing that I'm
breathing fast or noticing thatmy legs hurt a little bit, but
we're just observing that likethis is doesn't have to be a big
deal.
It's oftentimes what happenswhen we run and and then the
(29:06):
brain will relax and the criseswill reduce or the severity of
the pain or the will willreduce. So oftentimes just
acknowledging emotion oracknowledging the physical the
physical sensation can help toreduce some reduce the severity
and of the emotion or the or thephysical sensation that that's
enabling somebody to performbetter for longer which gets the
(29:29):
desired result that we I thinkoften refer to as as mental
toughness. And then anotherstrategy that I found really
useful is noticing thosefeelings and even offering
yourself some compassion andfriendliness for feeling the
feelings. You know, like saying,hey, I'm feeling really stressed
(29:50):
like I don't know if I can holdthis pace the whole way. I don't
know if I can finish this runlike I'm starting to feel like I
can't finish this run and myemotions are getting a little
bit unsettled.
Again noticing those emotionsand saying, hey, I can
understand why you feel thisway. You know, you're out here
working hard. That's okay.That's a normal response.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So
Speaker 2 (30:11):
that response that that can also help to reduce the
severity of the distress andagain enable performance to be
improved or maintained and Iwould say is another version of
mental toughness.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Is the term, grit used interchangeably there or is
that something different?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Grit, grit, I would say, grit refers to largely to
perseverance despite obstaclesor perseverance despite
adversity. So so I would saymental toughness, or whatever
strategies you learn, arementally effective for you to
(30:55):
prolong your effort or so to bebe more mentally tough, those
will enable you to be moregritty. Like, gritty is
essentially perseverance.Gotcha. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And and what are what are the what works for you?
Like, how do you find when youthe going gets tough in a run or
any activity like what what'syour go to method to to to get
tougher?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So one thing that's been very useful for me is is
definitely in advance of of myworkouts or my races is breaking
up the race and just decidingwhat my focus is going to be at
key parts of the race. So I douse the patience gratitude,
tough self. Okay. Myself, when Iwhen I've noticed, like,
(31:41):
sometime like, sometimes I'venoticed that I might be in a
workout or in a race, and my mylegs feel okay, and my breathing
feels okay. But for whateverreason, I feel like I'm having a
little bit of a a mental crisis.
Like, my my brain doesn't thinkI'm okay. Like, I use the
noticing of emotion and offeringmyself compassion for that
(32:02):
emotion. And in fact, I even goas far as in my mind's eye,
putting my hand on my own head.Like, on the part of me the the
the part that's freaking out,like in all of us, that's just a
part that's trying to keep ussafe. Like, our brain freaks out
because it wants us to staysafe.
It's sensing that our losinghomeostasis, we don't have as
(32:24):
much oxygen as we normally have.And so it's freaking out because
it wants to stop because it isworried we're going to hurt
ourselves. So so in my own mind,my mind's eye, I'll literally
like put my hand on the head ofthat part of me and say, hey,
that's okay. I know why you'rehere. We're all good.
Just hang out. It sounds soweird, but honestly that has
(32:48):
been that has been such aneffective strategy for me, and
it's been an effective strategylike variations on that have
been a very a very usefulstrategy for other athletes as
well.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I like that a lot. I'm gonna have to practice a lot
of these techniques myself on mynext few runs. I'll report back
to you.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah. And one other thing I should mention actually
is, the practice of mindfulness,like mindfulness meditation
where you you take a part of theday and you you basically
require yourself to keep yourattention on something for at
least six minutes. Science hasshown that if we practice
meditation for six minutes aday, it really, really works, on
(33:29):
our powers of attention. And Iwould say that practicing
meditation, has helped me tobecome a whole lot more
emotionally aware. So forexample, I think practicing
meditation has given me theability to when I'm out there
running be able to notice thatmy legs are fine and my
breathing is fine and the freakout I'm having is mental
Speaker 1 (33:46):
as opposed
Speaker 2 (33:48):
to physical. So I encourage I encourage everyone
to practice mindfulnessmeditation.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I am on day 16 in a row of meditation, doing ten
minutes, getting up a bitearlier and getting up or just
doing ten minutes of meditation.And I've I've I've dabbled in
meditation previously, but, I'vedecided I'm going to really give
it a good go now. Anyway, so myday 16 in a row and I must say,
(34:15):
like, I already noticedifferences in the way I can
focus, especially at work andstuff. And, yeah, it's just all
it's hard to explain to people,but I just feel like I'm always
in this state or or more in astate of mental clarity, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a really it's an
extraordinary practice. Sosimple. So simple, not easy to
do in that, you know, you nodoubt you've experienced a
little bit of mind wandering,right?
Mhmm.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yep. But, it's so beneficial for the the little
amount it really takes. Right?Like your ten minutes. So, yeah.
No. Good for you. That'sawesome.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
No. I yeah. I'm really enjoying it and I'm gonna
I'm gonna keep it up because I'mseeing the the benefits already.
So, anyway, so yeah, I'll I'llput the link to a couple of apps
and the show notes for people,that I use which are helpful and
I'm sure, I mean, perhaps youhave some to recommend as well.
What do you use for yourmeditations?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah. I, you know, I, I have used there's a I'm always
a fan of three things. So I haveused, there's a there's a the
UCLA Meditation Center has, alink on their website to a
number of different types ofmeditation. There's there's
about seven different differenttypes and, yes, if you were to
(35:36):
Google UCLA mindfulnessmeditations, there's free
meditations that you can, don'tknow if you can download them.
You probably you might be ableto.
You can access them for free onthat. I use I use that. I also
use other kind of weird thingslike, I will I will go out for a
walk and I'll try to notice fivefive things I hadn't noticed
(36:00):
before in that area. Four, I'lltry to hear four things I hadn't
heard or three things and workthrough the senses like five
things I see, four things Ihear, three things I touch, two
things I smell, and one thing Itaste. So like to run through
the senses, that I use that one.
I also will go for a walk andtry to notice where I feel the
(36:22):
wind on my body as well. Sothese are just weird like these
are just really the thing withmeditation is to require
yourself to focus on somethingand when you notice your brain
drift away, you just kindlybring it back to that focus.
That's gonna key. So, for surethat the links are definitely
(36:42):
useful and I use those as well.But if you don't have time to
listen to a link, you do have aten minute walk from one place
to another, focusing on likewhat you hear and just naming
what you hear or, feeling thewind where it touches you and
noticing that like those arealso meditative practices.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Great. And I'll put a link to the UCLA meditations,
for everyone to take a look atas well. So let's move on. I
want to talk a little bit about,setbacks and for people coping,
injuries or a common commonoccurrence, amongst new runners
or people that get, you know,frustrated with, reoccurring
(37:22):
injuries, and they they can'tkeep up their running. So can
you talk a little bit aboutsome, strategies to help people
cope when there's, a failure,setback or perhaps a running
injury?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, for sure. So I think the first thing to realize
is that injuries truly are partof sport. Like, oftentimes when
we get injured, we feel likewe've done something wrong,
we're a bad athlete, somethinghas happened that shouldn't
happen, but it's just it's a %part of sport. So just as much
(37:56):
as running and the joy of it andgetting fitters part of sport,
sometimes getting hurt andtaking time off is part of
sport. So tips for that is torecognize that that it is part
of sport.
You're not alone. I do I spendtime around a lot of very good
runners here at Flagstaff andthe frequency which they're in,
(38:18):
here at Hypo two getting treatedfor something that they're
struggling to, you know, tomaintain or they're having to
take time off or they're comingback from something is so
normal. It's there's so manyathletes in that space. So so
know you're not alone. Know thatone of the things I always tell
athletes is that if you haveonce you've achieved a certain
(38:41):
level of fitness, getting backto that level of fitness is
takes less time than the firsttime you got there.
So even if you've been runningfor two years and now, man, you
can finally run 10, you know, 10k and you now have to take a
month off because of somethingand you don't know that you can
still run 10 k, like you willyou will not take you another
(39:01):
two years to able run 10 kagain. Like the the time the
time will be much shorter, likeyou'll you'll come back much
faster. I would say sometimessometimes setting some goals for
dealing with your injury is agood way to mentally cope. So,
(39:23):
sometimes what happens is we'rerunning and we have a goal of,
you know, I want to run a fiveks in two weeks or in, mean,
should I say two months, and I'mgoing to run this many miles,
this many kilometers a day inorder to attain that goal, but
then but then we get hurt andall of a sudden we we can't have
that goal anymore. Maybe itwould be, all right, I have a
(39:46):
I've gone to the physio and Ihave a goal of doing five reps
of this exercise that, they'vegiven me and I want to see if I
can do 10 in a week or somethinglike that.
Like you can create a target towork towards that is healthy,
and helps you to yet becomehealthy again, creating targets
(40:09):
that you're that you're able to,that you're able to do and still
heal can be a great way todirect focus. Those are those
are probably some of my better,my more frequent strategies for
dealing with injury.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, that's great. And I wanna ask you too now, is
there anything current anycurrent science or research
that, you're reading about orfollowing that really excites
you right now as it relates tothe psychology of sport?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Oh man, you know I've got to confess, I'm not as
current as I'd like to be. Butbut the more recent stuff that
excites me about the
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Or or any or anything that's perhaps not talked about
a lot that excites you that thatpeople won't read about in, you
know, blogs or Runner's World orsomething?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah. Well, I can tell you I can tell you one
thing. Let me see. I I'm I'vebeen working on some research of
my own. It started out as mymaster's thesis and it's still
it's just continuing to plugaway at it.
And and I have a hypothesis thatathletes who view the most
(41:30):
challenging moments of theirsport with a love of challenge,
like eagerness to do the hardstuff, going to progress more
quickly than athletes who meetthat moment with dread or
anxiety. And there's a fewreasons for that. So so one of
those reasons is that when we weengage in an activity with
(41:54):
positive emotion, our brainactually is is what's called
it's more plastic, which meansit's it's easier to shape. And
anytime we learn a new skill, itinvolves changing of our brain
structure. Like, brain growsneural circuitry and changes
every time we learn and improvenew skills.
So, if we can make our braineven more changeable, the theory
(42:17):
is that our brain will changemore quickly. So, I do in my
research, which is on runners,both collegiate and elite
runners, my hypothesis has beenthat the athletes who report
loving the challenge of theirsport will have gotten faster,
faster than those who don'treport loving their sport so
(42:40):
much, and I have found evidenceto support that. The study is
still ongoing. It's very much,there's way more work to be
done, But, yeah, definitely whenI compare the professional
runners that I've that I'vestudied to the collegiate
runners, they they have astatistically have statistically
(43:02):
significant higher likelihood ofdescribing the moments of
highest exertion using positivewords, and the college athletes
have a statistically higherlikelihood of using words like
nerves, fear, dread, tension,guilt, like negative words
associated with those moments ofhighest exertion. So I really
(43:26):
think for anybody who'sinterested in in improving and
improving as fast as they can,making the effort to love the
hard stuff, however they findthey can love the hard stuff,
they'll see greater gains.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Wow. That's interesting just the the the
large discrepancy between thepro athletes and college
athletes because collegeathletes are fairly accomplished
and motivated athletesthemselves. So I mean, it'd be
interesting to see thedifference between a, you know,
your day to day runner comparedto a college athlete then
compared to a pro athlete. Soit's quite a wide spectrum, I
(44:00):
would presume.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah. I I you know what? It would be really
interesting. I haven't looked atday to day athletes, but I would
love to. Like, that that wouldbe a really interesting
comparison.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
That's cool. So so I wanna be conscious of your time.
So I just got a couple morequestions here. One being, so
this is a typical avatar, Iguess, of someone in, listening
to the podcast or, that's on myemail list. It'd be like perhaps
a mom who works, who's got, acouple kids and, they're
(44:34):
generally strapped for time butreally wants to start running
regularly, what would you say tothis person?
And it could be from this fromthe sports psychology
perspective about, you know,what would you say to this
person to get them ready and andand amped up to go?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I think I think my strongest pieces of advice is
that something is better thannothing. So if they if they're
saying, man, I really want to bea runner. I really want to go. I
want to run five k a day. Butthey're finding that they just
can't commit that much time toit.
So those people get reallyfrustrated with themselves and
(45:10):
they just stop. You know, ifthey can't do their whole
distance, they're just not goingto do it. But a % something is
better than nothing. So if two kis possible when five k isn't,
but do the two k, do the one k,go for a fifteen minute walk,
like do the something. That isthat is one real, I would say
(45:30):
strong piece of advice.
Gosh, that yeah. I'm trying tothink what else I would say.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
No. That's a good one right there.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I would also say be easy on like, try to be easier
on yourself. Like, one of thethings that I see with with
athletes that have to work, youknow, like like most people have
to work, those who are notprofessional runners. Sometimes
demands of life you like, thedemands of life will really get
(46:02):
in the way of getting in thatwhole workout that you want to
do. And, people get stressedabout missing a workout or
having to shorten it orsomething along those lines. And
I think we always want our sportto be a joy.
So maybe this is along the samelines of just something is
better than nothing. And if youhave to miss once in a while,
(46:27):
you you you're probably betterto just miss a run than to do it
at 10:00 at night and hate it,know, and make yourself way too
tough, really really tired. Likedon't be afraid to take days
off, don't be afraid to miss arun, don't be afraid to shorten
things for the the good of yourhealth and the love of your
running, I guess is what I wouldwhat I would say.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah. No. I totally agree. And I always tell people
don't try to fit runs in thatyou've had to miss because of
sickness. Like, don't try tosqueeze them in or add them in
somewhere else.
Just just accept it. It's fineto miss a workout and don't try
to squeeze it in, you know, backto back with another run-in your
program just because you misseda run because that's how
(47:07):
injuries happen when you start,you know, adding, you know,
fiddling out with a programthat's set up to help you avoid
injuries and increase your yourfitness gradually. So, yeah,
don't don't fret about anymissed workouts for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Exactly. Yeah, definitely. I gotta say
anecdotally, like anecdotallywhen I the the athletes that I
know that are excellent, likesome world class athletes, and
then I also know some that arealmost, well, you know, almost
that good or just or say justvery good. It's never say just
(47:39):
very good. But I I I have notstudied this, but it has been my
impression that the best of thebest, they just have a real
grounded energy about them andthey make smart choices for
their health.
If they have, like you'resaying, if they have to miss a
run, they miss a run. If ifthey're not feeling well, they
might take the day off. Whereasthose next those next best,
(48:05):
there's sometimes, a veryobsessive rigid tension about
them. And I've sometimeswondered if that prevents them
from being as good as they couldbe. No.
I've I've sometimes wonderedthat. Like, the ones that are
just completely obsessive andwill not miss something. I I
I've wondered that. And it'sjust it's very it's just
anecdotal. It's just fromhanging out with lots of lots of
(48:27):
athletes and yeah, I've livedbut I've what I've noticed is
that the the best make wisedecisions for their long term
health and well-being.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
I like that. Are there any, online resources or
books that you would recommendfor people who want to dive a
bit deeper into this topic?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Let's see. I like like the the
the Macmillan running site,which I think has lots of good
information.
I've done some writing for them.Also, there's a there's a fellow
called Alex Hutchinson who has awebsite called sweat sweat
(49:05):
science. He's on Twitter. Hassome very always has some very
interesting up to date things.That's probably where to go to
get current.
That's where I should go to getcurrent.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah. It's funny about Alex. He, his name comes
up often on my podcast and heactually lives in my
neighborhood. I see himperiodically.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. That's cool. That's really
cool. Yeah.
That's really cool. I know Ireally like his stuff. There's
another there's another podcastI I enjoy that talks about
mastery in all sorts ofdifferent sports. It's called
Finding Mastery by a sportspsychologist called Michael
Gervais and he talks about,expertise in numerous wide
(49:46):
reaching fields like not justsports. Very interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
I think I yes. Someone mentioned that to me the
other day as well. And, does hedo some work with the Seattle
Seahawk?
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah. He does. Yep. Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Okay. Same guy.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yep. Same guy. And then, books. There's one that
like there's one that's reallyfascinating. You might people
might really enjoy that I reallyenjoyed.
It's called the rise ofSuperman, and it talks about,
the experience of what's calledflow state And flow state is is
(50:20):
is basically the name for it'sthe believe it or not, flow
state is the scientific name forwhat we refer to as being in the
zone. So so those days whenthings just feel amazing and
wonderful, And it's somethingthat's common across all all
activities really, but it's useda lot. It's referred to a lot in
sport and basically what flowstate is is a % focused on the
(50:43):
task at hand withoutdistraction. But the book, The
Rise of Superman, it talks a lotabout extreme sport. Every so
often it gets pretty grandiose.
So as someone who who is quitestrictly educated in, science
and how you say things, so everysometimes I cringe at that, the
book the book on the whole iswonderful and there's a lot of
(51:03):
science in it. There's someterrific stories and it really,
opens a person's mind to thepossibilities of what we can
accomplish in flow state orbasically in a state of % focus.
So yeah, the rise of Superman.There's a great book by Terry
Orlik, which is old now, but agreat book called Psyching for
(51:24):
Sport, which it provides greatlike great explanations for how
our brain works in sport andalso some real useful exercises
and worksheets. So that's a goodone.
Gosh, there's a bunch I couldtell you. I I have like I like
to read a lot that is a littlebit outside not like, outside
(51:48):
the field of sports psychology,but still very relevant. Like,
the field of positivepsychology, basically the study
of flourishing and and andachievement has produced
research in, like, grit, forexample, like you mentioned,
and, creativity and, originalideas. So, like, I've enjoyed
books. There's the book Grit byAngela Duckworth, which is
(52:10):
really good.
The book, there's a book, Peak,written by Andres Erickson, who
basically the founder of theresearch on expertise. I say the
founder, a very influentialresearcher on the field of
expertise. There's books on ondeveloping mastery and
creativity by a fellow calledScott Kaufman. They're called
(52:31):
Ungifted and Wired to Create. SoI I admit, I I really I tend to
gravitate towards books thatthey rely on the periphery of
sports psychology.
And then, there's a wonderfulbook. I really am also a fan of
mindfulness and easternphilosophy and the use of
(52:51):
eastern philosophy for sport andto enhance I really think that's
where a lot of performanceenhancement in the mental side
for sport is headed. There's areally cool book called Radical
Acceptance, which is much moreit's much more therapy oriented,
but as you read through it youcan imagine how it would
increase somebody's emotional,agility, give you approaches to
(53:13):
things you might never havethought of.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Who's the author of that book?
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Tara Brach. Yeah. T a r a b r a c h. Yeah. Those are
those are more like my morerecent readings, all of which I
would say you could draw youcould draw useful.
You could use useful informationfor sport from those things.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah. Not even just sport, perhaps just life in
general. Many of those.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Well, that's fantastic. Well, Shannon,
listen, I wanna thank you foryour time and expertise and,
where can people connect withyou online if they want to,
reach out and touch base or justperhaps follow, some of your
your writing, etcetera?
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah. You know, as I mentioned to you, the content I
should say this content on mywebsite is a little bit out of
date, mostly because I workreally closely with a couple of
organizations. So to connectwith me. Oh, and you know what,
one thing I'd really like tomention too, I do work for a
Canadian company called B78,which is a Jasper Blake's
(54:19):
triathlon company. So I'm alsoassociated with B78.
So information and contactinformation for me can be found
on B78 website. It can also befound at hypo2sport.com, which
is my American company I workfor here in Flagstaff. My own
website issweetperformances.wordpress.com,
(54:46):
I believe. And one of my greatpassions, I guess, is writing
about sport, I guess with a bitof a philosophical bent, and I I
I would say the most up to datepart of that website is the tab
that says personal thoughts onsport. I do I write for that
quite frequently, and so I wouldrecommend people check that out.
(55:08):
The best way to reach me ifanybody wants to reach me is my
email which is Shannonhypo2sportdot com. Yeah, I'm happy to
answer questions. I doconsultations over the phone and
yeah, I really if anybody hasany questions or need help,
please feel free to reach outand happy to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
That's awesome. Well, again, thanks very much. I'd
like to personally thank you andI'm sure the listeners will
really appreciate and, takeaction with some of the, advice
you've provided today. So,thanks again, Shannon.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
Cool. Thank you. Thank you very much, Far.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics Podcast at
w w w dot healthinomics dot com.
I'm Mark Kennedy, and this is the Healthinomics
(00:02):
podcast episode 30 with guestShannon Thompson. Welcome back,
everybody. What's up? As always,thanks for listening. If you're
new to the Healthinomicspodcast, this is typically an
interview based show where Italk to some of the best minds
in running From coaches tophysiotherapists to nutritious
and even the athletesthemselves.
And if you listened to thepodcast before, thanks for
(00:23):
coming back. Before we get totoday's interview with Shannon
Thompson, I wanna let you knowabout my none to run challenge.
The next challenge starts on04/01/2017. The challenge is a
great way to get motivated, getsupport, and to help you make
running a habit. And there'ssome great prizes to be given
away like free running shoes, tshirts, strength training
gadgets, and lots of other coolrunning gear.
(00:43):
I want to challenge you to throwlong distances and fast paces
out the window. One month, fiveruns of five minutes or more per
week. Are you in? Go tononetorun.com/challenge to start
up. That'sn0net0run.com/challenge Onto
today's interview with ShannonThompson.
(01:04):
Shannon is both an athlete and acoach. She completed in the
equestrian sport of three dayeventing for fifteen years like
a triathlon but on a horse. Thenshe got interested in the sport
of running and has raceddistances from 800 meters to
ultra trail events. An interestin the psychology of achievement
led her to completing anundergraduate degree in
psychology and a master's inapplied positive psychology from
(01:25):
the University of Pennsylvania.Through Hypo two Sport and B78
Coaching Shannon now coachesathletes in several different
sports to improve theirperformance.
In this episode we talk abouthow to approach setting goals
for your running, how to get thebest out of any run, how to
combat negative thoughts so youcan run feeling energized and
motivated, ways to become a morepatient runner, how to enhance
(01:46):
your mental toughness, how todevelop a game plan for every
run or race, the importance ofmindfulness, strategies to help
you cope and come back from aninjury or setback, Shannon's
recommended books, and much muchmore. The show notes for this
episode will be atHealthenomics.com/thirty. There
you'll also be able to downloadthe transcript for the episode.
(02:07):
Enjoy the show everybody.Welcome to the Healthinomics
Podcast.
Boosting your health and fitnessIQ one episode at a time. And
now your host, Mark Kennedy.Welcome to Healthinomics
Podcast, Shannon.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. No problem. Excited to talk. As I mentioned,
to you earlier in some emailsand our pre chat, my focus is on
helping runners, mostly beginnerrunners or people who are just
getting back into it. So I'mreally excited to to dive into
some topics, that you're anexpert in.
So I like to start off most ofmy chats with, having the guest,
(02:47):
tell the listeners a little bitabout yourself, sort of where
you grew up, went to university,your history with running, and
then what you're up to now.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Sure. Sure. Well, I grew up in Vancouver, British
Columbia. And actually, thismight be surprising in that I I
actually spent the most most ofmy youth up until I was about
29, riding horsesprofessionally, which is quite a
lot quite a lot different thanrunning. I competed in a sport
(03:17):
called three day eventing, whichis kind of like a horse
triathlon, and I I rodeprofessionally and coached until
I was well, coached into myearly thirties, but I changed my
focus from being an athlete toto psychology when I was 29.
And and then I basically waseager to become a real adult.
(03:38):
So, for reasons I don't knownow, but no, I, I went to I did
my undergrad pretty much asquickly as possible, through
Thompson Rivers University. Idid a bachelor's, degree in
psychology through ThompsonRivers and the reason for
Thompson Rivers was they allowedfor a lot of work to be done
online and it also allowed for,other universities courses to be
(04:03):
applied to their degree. So, Idid I went through Toms Rivers,
but I used Simon FraserUniversity, Langara College, as
well to comprise my degree. Andthen I attended the University
of Pennsylvania, which is inPhiladelphia, and I did a
Master's in Applied PositivePsychology, which is basically
(04:25):
the science of human flourishingand high achievement.
And then I graduated a year anda half ago from Penn, and now I
work in Flagstaff, Arizona. I doa lot for Northern Arizona
University, which is a divisionone school down here, and I
(04:45):
cover about 10 sports here. And,yeah. And then I do work for a
company called Hypo2 Sport,which handles altitude training
camps for international teams.And as you might know, Flagstaff
is very much a hotbed forendurance athletes because it's
at 7,000 feet.
So it's a real neat spot to tospend time around elite runners.
(05:10):
It's the other runners andswimmers are probably the
primary clientele at HypoTube.And, and then as far as my own
background in running, I Istarted distance running when I
was about 22. And I I startedbecause I'd always loved running
and I was really going through atough patch with equestrian. And
(05:31):
I had friends who were runnersand a boyfriend who was a
runner.
And, so it was just encouragingme to do something I think I'd
always wanted to do. And I Ihave had a couple of coaches
over the years and I've I Iwould say I've always been a
hardworking amateur. You know,it was always import it was my
running was important to me. Ithink from having been a serious
(05:54):
athlete in another sport, that'skind of how I knew how to do
sport. But you know, I neverbecame an I've never become an
elite runner or anything likethat, but I have worked hard at
it and raced anywhere from 800meters up to long trail stuff
and I ran my first marathon thisyear.
So, I've got a fair bit ofexperience on road track and
trail now. And, I just it is Ijust love it and keep I keep
(06:18):
working at my running now.That's I guess my primary, my I
hate calling it a hobby. I feellike it's I feel like it's more
important to me than a hobby,but, you know, compared to a lot
of the elites that I work with,I really have to call it that
because what I do doesn't doesnot that what I put into it does
not measure what they put intoit. So it's a it's a terrific
meaningful activity for me.
Let's call it that.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah. It's all it's all in perspective. Right? Yep.
Well, that's great.
Well, thanks for giving us a bitof that background. Just a few
little follow-up questions justfrom what I heard there. How did
you get interested so much inthe psychology end of things?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, as a as a competitor and as a coach in
equestrian sport, interestingly,equestrian sport is a very
technical sport which, unlessyou spend some time in it, it
might be a little bitsurprising. And it's also a very
mental sport. Again, perhapssurprising unless you spend some
time in it. So I really did asan athlete and as a coach
(07:15):
witness the power of the mindover performance. And as someone
who performance was verymeaningful for, It was
fascinating to me how the mindcould impact performance and I
realized that if I could helpathletes direct their mind in a
helpful way, I really could helpthem seek the performances that
(07:35):
they're seeking.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And you said you you work with quite a a wide range
of different athletes. Is thereany particular groups of
athletes that you really likeworking with? Any particular
sport?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I definitely I always call the runners my passion
project. I think because myself,I am a runner, so that's
probably largely to do with it.I I also find runners I like
their they're kind ofstereotypically, let's say quiet
and complex, and I enjoy tryingto figure them out. So so I'd
(08:11):
say runners are yeah, let's callrunners my passion project.
Another group that I really findfun are divers.
We have a group of divers hereat NAU, and, their personalities
are very different from fromrunners. They're they're a bit
more light I would say that theycan be a bit more light hearted,
and I do find it fascinating howthey can be afraid every day in
(08:34):
practice and do the things thatthey do. Like it they really do
deal with fear every day. So Iwould say after the runners, the
divers perhaps are a favorite.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh, that's cool. And Yeah. Which you said you you
just ran your first marathonrecently. Which marathon did you
run?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I run I run the Philadelphia Marathon.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Oh, cool. How was that?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
It was wonderful because I went to school in
Philadelphia, so I have a realattachment to it. And, I
retraining leading up to itwasn't great because I had I was
sick for quite a while actuallyand I wasn't going to race. And
then I just thought, oh man, Idon't wanna waste, I don't wanna
wait another whole year to run amarathon. So I I have other
things I like to do in thespring and the summer, and I and
(09:16):
I really wanted to to raise myfirst marathon in Philly. So, it
was not the time I would havewanted, but I was very committed
to running a smart race becauseif I work in sports psychology,
I have to run a smart race.
So, I was happy with how I ranthe race, and it was so that
(09:37):
made it a great experience. AndI hope it bodes well for future
marathons. I hope it sets me up.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I thought I guess is what I wanna say.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah. They always say I guess that that first
marathon, I've only done two butanyways, the first one it was
like a real sort of experiment.You're just happy to do it. And
then the second one is like,okay, you kind of you just know
what to expect. And, yeah, Ijust found for the second one,
you know, it's not that I wasfitter.
I was just much better prepared,knew what to expect, and and
(10:08):
then smarter as a result aswell. So, anyways, congrats for
doing your your first marathon.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Thanks. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So as I mentioned, I wanna dive into some topics that
you're an expert in for beginnerrunners. And I know for a lot of
beginners that I hear or getemails from, it's not
necessarily always the runningthat holds them back from,
making running a part of theirlife. It's the mental aspect
they struggle with. So, anyways,that'll be our focus for today's
(10:35):
chat. And in doing a little bitof research on your work, I I
just wanna focus in on a few,different areas of the mental
aspect and feel free to to toadd in whatever information you
want.
But the first being, just indoing a bit of research on your
website, is preparation. Andthat, I guess, involves, you
(10:57):
know, perhaps maybe goal settingfor people, you know, they're
starting a program. How does thewhole goal setting process work
and what are some tips thatthese, runners can, approach
goal setting to, help themprepare to become sort of
consistent runner and a runnerfor life?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah. No, that's a great that's a great question.
When it comes to when it comesto goal setting for running, I
always I always I recommendgaining the insight from a
running coach if possible orsomebody who is very
knowledgeable about the abouttraining, but how that can be
(11:36):
done safely, keeping you injuryfree, and could who can help you
choose a goal that's realisticand it'll be satisfying, like,
so that would always be my firstbit of advice for somebody who
is is looking, to set goals withrunning. I feel like so I'll
(11:58):
quickly touch on, I'm going totouch on goal setting a little
bit, but I think I might have aslightly a slight slight
sidetrack that might be evenmore useful when it comes to
preparation that might be more,slightly different for people to
hear about, but I think isreally interesting. So so I
always you always encouragepeople to set goals based upon
(12:18):
the acronym SMART, which I thinkmany people have heard before.
So that means choosing goalsthat are specific, measurable,
action oriented, realistic, andtime bound. Because it's a goal
like saying, just want to be abetter runner. Oh, it's a great
goal. We tend to make greaterprogress if we are specific,
(12:41):
measurable, it's realistic, andif we set ourselves a deadline
for it. That those would be someguidelines for for setting
goals.
And then I guess the other tip Iwould say about setting goals
are if you if you pick a goalthat at first might seem like a
little bit of a stretch, if youcan create some some small
(13:01):
stepping stone goals on route tothat goal, all of a sudden it
doesn't seem like such a stretchand that can that can be a way
to help you to to actuallyattain some of these larger
goals. What I what I reallyemphasize though when it comes
to preparation is figuring outwhat kind of a focus you want to
(13:24):
have during important parts ofyour of your runner or of your
race. Now I should ask you, arewe should we be talking racing
here or should is this mostlytraining or
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It could be a bit of both. I mean, some people might
be training, perhaps for theirfirst five or 10 k, but, you
know, the focus maybe notnecessarily on just performance,
but perhaps just getting the youknow, having the mental aptitude
to to do all their training andand be able to, you know,
accomplish these goals. So, Imean but some of them obviously
(13:59):
yeah. Some of these people, thatto to listen for sure, they're
doing some races.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I'll tell you my general my general philosophy on
getting the best out of any run.So our physical body is closely
related to our brain, obviously,regarding anything that we do.
And I think as runners, we'realways looking for the most
(14:26):
positive, enjoyable experiencewhile still pushing our
boundaries and getting fitter. Ithink that probably describes
most runners, whether you'recompetitive or you're not
competitive. Now, I think anexperience that we can all
relate to no matter what levelof a runner you are is that of
feeling fatigued enough youdon't know that you can complete
(14:49):
a distance or hit a specifictime in a race.
And one of the wonderfulchallenges of running, of
course, is is kind of thatmoment of challenging yourself
and get in and kind of risingperhaps to being a little
tougher or a little braver thanyou maybe thought you could be.
(15:10):
I think that's one of the realrewards of running and one of
the real, wonderful challengesof it. And we all I think often
want to want to run faster andfarther typically. So one thing
to understand is that the brainis very closely related to the
body when it comes to itsability to perform and its
willingness to perform. And ourstress system plays a large role
(15:34):
in whether our brain will allowour body to continue to perform
at a certain level or even workharder, you know, like in a
race.
So the more we can keep our mindin a positive orientation, the
more or a relaxed or neutralorientation, the more likely our
body is going to be able tocontinue to maintain a pace or
(15:57):
an effort or even increase thatthat pace or effort. So I always
I try to give athletes methodsto maintain that positive or at
least neutral and relaxedperspective. And the other
interesting thing about ourbrain is that it tends to
remember what we repeatedly do.So, if we run frequently and we
(16:23):
are always out there like inthat moment when we're working
really hard and we're always outthere thinking to ourselves,
yeah, this is what I signed upfor like I am this this just
hurts and this is hard, but I'mimproving and this is improving
my life. Like if we create a ifwe think that consciously
regularly, we'll develop neuralpathways that will make it
(16:43):
easier and easier for us tothink that in the future.
Whereas if we approach runningand we you know we start to get
tired and we start to getfearful and negative and dread
it and hate it and start tothink horrible thoughts about
ourselves, we will create neuralpathways that'll make it easier
for us to think that way. Kindagot me like we, it's important
(17:05):
what we think because the morewe think of any given thing, the
more likely we are to think atthe next time. Does that make
sense?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, totally makes sense to me. I'm just thinking
my own training, for instance,like, you know, I've definitely
gone on runs where, you know,it's I'm running at a a
challenging pace and you'relike, yeah, it's hard, but,
yeah, you you feel good about itbecause you're sweating, you're
breathing hard, you're burningoff some stress, and you know
you're gonna get some gains ofit. And then on the flip side,
(17:33):
I've had runs where, yeah, I getout there and I'm not holding
the pace I think I should beholding, and you think I'm not
fit enough. I'm yeah. You'reyou're dreading the rest of the
run.
So, I mean, I I've also hadthose same feelings within the
same run. So are those twodifferent feelings?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah. Definitely. That happens. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I think what weoften don't realize is that if
we if we if we cave to thosenegative feelings, you basically
become better at feelingnegative feelings, you know, and
they come more often and theycome more regularly. So like if
(18:10):
I'm a like back if I think backto my to my marathon, I was I
believed that for my firstmarathon that I was going to lay
down the mental scaffoldingregarding how my brain was going
to see marathons based upon howI chose to run that marathon and
(18:30):
how I chose to to experience itwhile I was out there. So so
when it comes to preparationthis is and this is what I
believe this is what I believefor all well basically honestly
all experience that if we talkif we talk about running all all
runs and all races so, what I dowith the athletes that I work
(18:50):
with and this is relevant nomatter what level you're at is,
I advise them to look ahead atthe run or the race that they're
planning to do and anticipatelike where where they might need
to have a planned focus so thatwhen they if they encounter a
little bit of struggle, theyhave a plan for what they're
(19:11):
going to think about whilethey're struggling because
because we can if we have ifwe're prepared in advance with
what we're going to think aboutand we are diligent and we work
really hard at maintaining ahelpful focus, while we're out
running especially when we'rerunning at a level that's a
higher exertion, we'll train ourbrain to see that moment of
(19:32):
higher level exertion in acertain way so that we get
better and better and better atit, you know.
So we're likely to see we'relikely to see greater progress
and we're less likely to have areal catastrophic day if we're
very diligent and we we inadvance plan we're going to
think plan what we're going tothink about in a given moment
and then we diligently keep thatfocus and say to ourselves what
(19:55):
we plan to say to ourselveswhile we're out there. That that
is primarily what I mean bypreparation is looking ahead to
the to the run of the race andhaving a plan for what you're
gonna think about in key momentsand, you and practicing using
that focus in key moments duringtraining, or during every run.
(20:17):
Is it is, yeah, that that'sprimarily what I mean by
preparation.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
That's great. And, just a question. So to retarget
those thoughts when you're maybesome negative thoughts come in
your mind, how do you how do youretarget those thoughts to
something positive? Or, like, doyou have, like, a a mantra you
would maybe repeat to yourself?Or, are you just, you know, like
what's what's the process ofwhat do you how are you
retargeting your thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah. No, that's a that's a good question. So it's
important to come up with it'sit's important to come up with
what at least you're gonna tryin advance because when we're
struggling, it's much harder tothink of something positive.
Like, in fact, it's not it'slike if we're struggling,
science has shown our ability tothink positive thoughts is
(21:04):
actually impaired. So we wannawe wanna think about this in
advance.
That's one of the key things. Soone way that I've done this with
athletes is, so I'll sit downwith them beforehand and we
break down. Usually it's it's arace we break down, into into
thirds or quarters and I'll talkin thirds in this case. So a
(21:25):
prime example would be the firstthird of someone's run -in
advance they decide they'regoing to be patient. So what I
mean by that is like one classicproblem that runners often have
is they go out too fast toosoon.
So, so one real common thing isthat runners are all going to be
patient in the first third oftheir run of their race, which
(21:45):
means typically means for themthey're going a little slower
than they think they need to.Like they're truly being patient
and waiting before they putforward, a lot of effort. Then
the second the second third oftheir run again in advance, plan
that they're going to begrateful. They plan that they're
(22:06):
going to be grateful forsomething. Now for some people
that is, grateful for the theability to be out running.
Maybe it's grateful. Maybe itexpands beyond running. Maybe
it's grateful for their family.Maybe it's grateful for their
pet. Maybe it's grateful fortheir running partner.
Maybe it's the beautiful placethey live. That one you know
it's got to be something thatfeels genuine to that person.
(22:29):
But, gratitude is a positiveemotion that's related to love
and, love actually when we're inlove, the part of our brain
responsible for pain and fear isinhibited. So that's why I often
use gratitude, for runnersbecause if you can feel
gratitude while you're outthere, you you know, the bit of
(22:49):
a performance enhancer or itcould be a bit of a performance
enhancer or make the experience,a whole lot easier on you. And
then one of the key things isyou said like, well, how do we
make ourselves be positive?
And in that moment, like in thatmoment when you're you're
choosing to see things a certainway, you're choosing to think
(23:14):
grateful thoughts as opposed tothoughts that are about how much
this hurts, how unfit you are,how much slurry you are than so
and so, you know, those arethese are real common thoughts.
It actually can be a bit of afight. Like, it can be a real
fight to to keep thinking thosethoughts. But the important
thing is to commit and to fightit out. Like, fight it out.
(23:35):
Find to be grateful for. Do notlet yourself slide because if
you slide back you into thenegative thoughts, just practice
that negative habit again andyou strengthen the neural
connections that help keep youthinking negatively. So funny,
it becomes a fight to thinkpositively. It's a choice in a
fight sometimes, but the coolthing is is if you if you carry
(23:57):
out that fight a couple times itgets way easier. Like I'd say
it's probably hard for two runsprobably hard for two, but third
you're starting to starting toget easier, to think positively.
And then the same goes for thethe third the third third of how
I often divide up runs forrunners. And oftentimes that
third third, I ask them toremember a time when they were
(24:20):
tougher than they thought theycould be. You know, they're
like, if they're a runner whoraces, maybe they remember back
to that race where they reallydug in and they they were braver
than they thought they could be.And they literally like will
either pretend to pick up thatversion of themselves as like a
companion out there with them orthey'll pretend to be that
(24:40):
person in the moment. You know,they'll kind of choose to embody
that part of themselves.
And again, certainly that momentcan also be a bit of a fight,
but I do stress that you fightwith you do you commit you do
everything you can use to holdit even if it feels goofy and
even if it feels fake, you'llreap the benefits in the future.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
That's great. Yeah. A lot of that, I mean, I haven't
practiced, in that methodspecifically, but, some of those
thoughts, you know, as I thinkback to some of my training and
runs, I wow, definitely thegratitude is coming to it,
especially in really long runsbecause you gotta you have a lot
of time to think out there. And,yeah, you find your mind
(25:19):
wandering all over the place,but then you you start thinking
about, you know, something youare thankful for. You're
thinking about your family orsomething.
And then all of a sudden, yeah,all of a sudden your effort
seems a bit, easier. Yeah. Youjust that positive mindset, all
of sudden your run switches likethat and it's like it's like
you've got some newfound energy.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yep. Absolutely. Yep. It's it's very useful.
Gratitude.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah. That's great. So let's move on to the to the
next section I wanna talk aboutand that was mental toughness
which you talked a little bitabout in in that section and you
I read an article you wroterecently, I believe it was in
Competitor Magazine and therewas a quote in there that I
liked. It says where you talkedabout, I also urge people to
explore what toughness means tothem.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
What does that mean? And you also talked about how
mental toughness is teachableand malleable. So I'd love to
hear your thoughts on toughness.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, no, that's a great, that's a fun topic. I've
been talking about it a lotright now, least recently, funny
how things come up. You know, abunch of different sources. So,
I think that one of the greatestmisconceptions about sports
psychology, or even about thebest athletes, is that their
(26:38):
that mental toughness, is alwayslike a real hard tough almost
macho kind of response. Knowthat it's that it's it we've
envisioned ourselves of beingreally brave and hard and
(26:59):
forceful or aggressive, likethat's what toughness is, or
unbothered, you know, like I'mreally resilient.
And actually mental toughness, Ikind of hate the word honestly,
I probably shouldn't have evenused the word. It's like
resilience is probably a betterword. Emotional or mental
(27:19):
agility is probably anotherbetter word. And the reason I
say that is because there's lotsof athletes that don't respond
to the aggressive, brave, go getthem energy behind the word
toughness. Lots of athletes, ifyou make them go be tough and,
(27:40):
like, go get that person aheadof you or you get hard on
yourself, a lot of times thatwill, kind of freak out their
stress system a little bit andit will have the opposite effect
than what you're seeking.
Like, too much tension of anykind can tell the body that
things are not okay and thatthis level of exertion is not
(28:02):
okay and that we ought to slowdown. So I find that lots of
athletes we can't just say be betougher, you know, be braver, be
more resilient, take the pain,you know, the pain cave, all
those kinds of things. Often,like I find one one strategy
that is really useful for somerunners is is just to like
(28:24):
notice the emotions you'reexperiencing and sometimes it's
just plain noticing them likethat's quite a mindfulness
approach just noticing them andacknowledging acknowledging them
can improve their performance tothe extent that like when they
when they when you noticeemotion and you acknowledge
emotion, if you can acknowledgeit in a non judgmental way, you
(28:45):
kind of you tell your brain thatit's not that big a deal, you
know, and you you're brain says,oh, oh, I know I'm breathing
fast and, my legs hurt a littlebit and we're noticing that I'm
breathing fast or noticing thatmy legs hurt a little bit, but
we're just observing that likethis is doesn't have to be a big
deal.
It's oftentimes what happenswhen we run and and then the
(29:06):
brain will relax and the criseswill reduce or the severity of
the pain or the will willreduce. So oftentimes just
acknowledging emotion oracknowledging the physical the
physical sensation can help toreduce some reduce the severity
and of the emotion or the or thephysical sensation that that's
enabling somebody to performbetter for longer which gets the
(29:29):
desired result that we I thinkoften refer to as as mental
toughness. And then anotherstrategy that I found really
useful is noticing thosefeelings and even offering
yourself some compassion andfriendliness for feeling the
feelings. You know, like saying,hey, I'm feeling really stressed
(29:50):
like I don't know if I can holdthis pace the whole way. I don't
know if I can finish this runlike I'm starting to feel like I
can't finish this run and myemotions are getting a little
bit unsettled.
Again noticing those emotionsand saying, hey, I can
understand why you feel thisway. You know, you're out here
working hard. That's okay.That's a normal response.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So
Speaker 2 (30:11):
that response that that can also help to reduce the
severity of the distress andagain enable performance to be
improved or maintained and Iwould say is another version of
mental toughness.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Is the term, grit used interchangeably there or is
that something different?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Grit, grit, I would say, grit refers to largely to
perseverance despite obstaclesor perseverance despite
adversity. So so I would saymental toughness, or whatever
strategies you learn, arementally effective for you to
(30:55):
prolong your effort or so to bebe more mentally tough, those
will enable you to be moregritty. Like, gritty is
essentially perseverance.Gotcha. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And and what are what are the what works for you?
Like, how do you find when youthe going gets tough in a run or
any activity like what what'syour go to method to to to get
tougher?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So one thing that's been very useful for me is is
definitely in advance of of myworkouts or my races is breaking
up the race and just decidingwhat my focus is going to be at
key parts of the race. So I douse the patience gratitude,
tough self. Okay. Myself, when Iwhen I've noticed, like,
(31:41):
sometime like, sometimes I'venoticed that I might be in a
workout or in a race, and my mylegs feel okay, and my breathing
feels okay. But for whateverreason, I feel like I'm having a
little bit of a a mental crisis.
Like, my my brain doesn't thinkI'm okay. Like, I use the
noticing of emotion and offeringmyself compassion for that
(32:02):
emotion. And in fact, I even goas far as in my mind's eye,
putting my hand on my own head.Like, on the part of me the the
the part that's freaking out,like in all of us, that's just a
part that's trying to keep ussafe. Like, our brain freaks out
because it wants us to staysafe.
It's sensing that our losinghomeostasis, we don't have as
(32:24):
much oxygen as we normally have.And so it's freaking out because
it wants to stop because it isworried we're going to hurt
ourselves. So so in my own mind,my mind's eye, I'll literally
like put my hand on the head ofthat part of me and say, hey,
that's okay. I know why you'rehere. We're all good.
Just hang out. It sounds soweird, but honestly that has
(32:48):
been that has been such aneffective strategy for me, and
it's been an effective strategylike variations on that have
been a very a very usefulstrategy for other athletes as
well.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I like that a lot. I'm gonna have to practice a lot
of these techniques myself on mynext few runs. I'll report back
to you.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah. And one other thing I should mention actually
is, the practice of mindfulness,like mindfulness meditation
where you you take a part of theday and you you basically
require yourself to keep yourattention on something for at
least six minutes. Science hasshown that if we practice
meditation for six minutes aday, it really, really works, on
(33:29):
our powers of attention. And Iwould say that practicing
meditation, has helped me tobecome a whole lot more
emotionally aware. So forexample, I think practicing
meditation has given me theability to when I'm out there
running be able to notice thatmy legs are fine and my
breathing is fine and the freakout I'm having is mental
Speaker 1 (33:46):
as opposed
Speaker 2 (33:48):
to physical. So I encourage I encourage everyone
to practice mindfulnessmeditation.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I am on day 16 in a row of meditation, doing ten
minutes, getting up a bitearlier and getting up or just
doing ten minutes of meditation.And I've I've I've dabbled in
meditation previously, but, I'vedecided I'm going to really give
it a good go now. Anyway, so myday 16 in a row and I must say,
(34:15):
like, I already noticedifferences in the way I can
focus, especially at work andstuff. And, yeah, it's just all
it's hard to explain to people,but I just feel like I'm always
in this state or or more in astate of mental clarity, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a really it's an
extraordinary practice. Sosimple. So simple, not easy to
do in that, you know, you nodoubt you've experienced a
little bit of mind wandering,right?
Mhmm.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yep. But, it's so beneficial for the the little
amount it really takes. Right?Like your ten minutes. So, yeah.
No. Good for you. That'sawesome.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
No. I yeah. I'm really enjoying it and I'm gonna
I'm gonna keep it up because I'mseeing the the benefits already.
So, anyway, so yeah, I'll I'llput the link to a couple of apps
and the show notes for people,that I use which are helpful and
I'm sure, I mean, perhaps youhave some to recommend as well.
What do you use for yourmeditations?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah. I, you know, I, I have used there's a I'm always
a fan of three things. So I haveused, there's a there's a the
UCLA Meditation Center has, alink on their website to a
number of different types ofmeditation. There's there's
about seven different differenttypes and, yes, if you were to
(35:36):
Google UCLA mindfulnessmeditations, there's free
meditations that you can, don'tknow if you can download them.
You probably you might be ableto.
You can access them for free onthat. I use I use that. I also
use other kind of weird thingslike, I will I will go out for a
walk and I'll try to notice fivefive things I hadn't noticed
(36:00):
before in that area. Four, I'lltry to hear four things I hadn't
heard or three things and workthrough the senses like five
things I see, four things Ihear, three things I touch, two
things I smell, and one thing Itaste. So like to run through
the senses, that I use that one.
I also will go for a walk andtry to notice where I feel the
(36:22):
wind on my body as well. Sothese are just weird like these
are just really the thing withmeditation is to require
yourself to focus on somethingand when you notice your brain
drift away, you just kindlybring it back to that focus.
That's gonna key. So, for surethat the links are definitely
(36:42):
useful and I use those as well.But if you don't have time to
listen to a link, you do have aten minute walk from one place
to another, focusing on likewhat you hear and just naming
what you hear or, feeling thewind where it touches you and
noticing that like those arealso meditative practices.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Great. And I'll put a link to the UCLA meditations,
for everyone to take a look atas well. So let's move on. I
want to talk a little bit about,setbacks and for people coping,
injuries or a common commonoccurrence, amongst new runners
or people that get, you know,frustrated with, reoccurring
(37:22):
injuries, and they they can'tkeep up their running. So can
you talk a little bit aboutsome, strategies to help people
cope when there's, a failure,setback or perhaps a running
injury?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, for sure. So I think the first thing to realize
is that injuries truly are partof sport. Like, oftentimes when
we get injured, we feel likewe've done something wrong,
we're a bad athlete, somethinghas happened that shouldn't
happen, but it's just it's a %part of sport. So just as much
(37:56):
as running and the joy of it andgetting fitters part of sport,
sometimes getting hurt andtaking time off is part of
sport. So tips for that is torecognize that that it is part
of sport.
You're not alone. I do I spendtime around a lot of very good
runners here at Flagstaff andthe frequency which they're in,
(38:18):
here at Hypo two getting treatedfor something that they're
struggling to, you know, tomaintain or they're having to
take time off or they're comingback from something is so
normal. It's there's so manyathletes in that space. So so
know you're not alone. Know thatone of the things I always tell
athletes is that if you haveonce you've achieved a certain
(38:41):
level of fitness, getting backto that level of fitness is
takes less time than the firsttime you got there.
So even if you've been runningfor two years and now, man, you
can finally run 10, you know, 10k and you now have to take a
month off because of somethingand you don't know that you can
still run 10 k, like you willyou will not take you another
(39:01):
two years to able run 10 kagain. Like the the time the
time will be much shorter, likeyou'll you'll come back much
faster. I would say sometimessometimes setting some goals for
dealing with your injury is agood way to mentally cope. So,
(39:23):
sometimes what happens is we'rerunning and we have a goal of,
you know, I want to run a fiveks in two weeks or in, mean,
should I say two months, and I'mgoing to run this many miles,
this many kilometers a day inorder to attain that goal, but
then but then we get hurt andall of a sudden we we can't have
that goal anymore. Maybe itwould be, all right, I have a
(39:46):
I've gone to the physio and Ihave a goal of doing five reps
of this exercise that, they'vegiven me and I want to see if I
can do 10 in a week or somethinglike that.
Like you can create a target towork towards that is healthy,
and helps you to yet becomehealthy again, creating targets
(40:09):
that you're that you're able to,that you're able to do and still
heal can be a great way todirect focus. Those are those
are probably some of my better,my more frequent strategies for
dealing with injury.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, that's great. And I wanna ask you too now, is
there anything current anycurrent science or research
that, you're reading about orfollowing that really excites
you right now as it relates tothe psychology of sport?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Oh man, you know I've got to confess, I'm not as
current as I'd like to be. Butbut the more recent stuff that
excites me about the
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Or or any or anything that's perhaps not talked about
a lot that excites you that thatpeople won't read about in, you
know, blogs or Runner's World orsomething?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah. Well, I can tell you I can tell you one
thing. Let me see. I I'm I'vebeen working on some research of
my own. It started out as mymaster's thesis and it's still
it's just continuing to plugaway at it.
And and I have a hypothesis thatathletes who view the most
(41:30):
challenging moments of theirsport with a love of challenge,
like eagerness to do the hardstuff, going to progress more
quickly than athletes who meetthat moment with dread or
anxiety. And there's a fewreasons for that. So so one of
those reasons is that when we weengage in an activity with
(41:54):
positive emotion, our brainactually is is what's called
it's more plastic, which meansit's it's easier to shape. And
anytime we learn a new skill, itinvolves changing of our brain
structure. Like, brain growsneural circuitry and changes
every time we learn and improvenew skills.
So, if we can make our braineven more changeable, the theory
(42:17):
is that our brain will changemore quickly. So, I do in my
research, which is on runners,both collegiate and elite
runners, my hypothesis has beenthat the athletes who report
loving the challenge of theirsport will have gotten faster,
faster than those who don'treport loving their sport so
(42:40):
much, and I have found evidenceto support that. The study is
still ongoing. It's very much,there's way more work to be
done, But, yeah, definitely whenI compare the professional
runners that I've that I'vestudied to the collegiate
runners, they they have astatistically have statistically
(43:02):
significant higher likelihood ofdescribing the moments of
highest exertion using positivewords, and the college athletes
have a statistically higherlikelihood of using words like
nerves, fear, dread, tension,guilt, like negative words
associated with those moments ofhighest exertion. So I really
(43:26):
think for anybody who'sinterested in in improving and
improving as fast as they can,making the effort to love the
hard stuff, however they findthey can love the hard stuff,
they'll see greater gains.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Wow. That's interesting just the the the
large discrepancy between thepro athletes and college
athletes because collegeathletes are fairly accomplished
and motivated athletesthemselves. So I mean, it'd be
interesting to see thedifference between a, you know,
your day to day runner comparedto a college athlete then
compared to a pro athlete. Soit's quite a wide spectrum, I
(44:00):
would presume.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah. I I you know what? It would be really
interesting. I haven't looked atday to day athletes, but I would
love to. Like, that that wouldbe a really interesting
comparison.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
That's cool. So so I wanna be conscious of your time.
So I just got a couple morequestions here. One being, so
this is a typical avatar, Iguess, of someone in, listening
to the podcast or, that's on myemail list. It'd be like perhaps
a mom who works, who's got, acouple kids and, they're
(44:34):
generally strapped for time butreally wants to start running
regularly, what would you say tothis person?
And it could be from this fromthe sports psychology
perspective about, you know,what would you say to this
person to get them ready and andand amped up to go?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I think I think my strongest pieces of advice is
that something is better thannothing. So if they if they're
saying, man, I really want to bea runner. I really want to go. I
want to run five k a day. Butthey're finding that they just
can't commit that much time toit.
So those people get reallyfrustrated with themselves and
(45:10):
they just stop. You know, ifthey can't do their whole
distance, they're just not goingto do it. But a % something is
better than nothing. So if two kis possible when five k isn't,
but do the two k, do the one k,go for a fifteen minute walk,
like do the something. That isthat is one real, I would say
(45:30):
strong piece of advice.
Gosh, that yeah. I'm trying tothink what else I would say.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
No. That's a good one right there.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I would also say be easy on like, try to be easier
on yourself. Like, one of thethings that I see with with
athletes that have to work, youknow, like like most people have
to work, those who are notprofessional runners. Sometimes
demands of life you like, thedemands of life will really get
(46:02):
in the way of getting in thatwhole workout that you want to
do. And, people get stressedabout missing a workout or
having to shorten it orsomething along those lines. And
I think we always want our sportto be a joy.
So maybe this is along the samelines of just something is
better than nothing. And if youhave to miss once in a while,
(46:27):
you you you're probably betterto just miss a run than to do it
at 10:00 at night and hate it,know, and make yourself way too
tough, really really tired. Likedon't be afraid to take days
off, don't be afraid to miss arun, don't be afraid to shorten
things for the the good of yourhealth and the love of your
running, I guess is what I wouldwhat I would say.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah. No. I totally agree. And I always tell people
don't try to fit runs in thatyou've had to miss because of
sickness. Like, don't try tosqueeze them in or add them in
somewhere else.
Just just accept it. It's fineto miss a workout and don't try
to squeeze it in, you know, backto back with another run-in your
program just because you misseda run because that's how
(47:07):
injuries happen when you start,you know, adding, you know,
fiddling out with a programthat's set up to help you avoid
injuries and increase your yourfitness gradually. So, yeah,
don't don't fret about anymissed workouts for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Exactly. Yeah, definitely. I gotta say
anecdotally, like anecdotallywhen I the the athletes that I
know that are excellent, likesome world class athletes, and
then I also know some that arealmost, well, you know, almost
that good or just or say justvery good. It's never say just
(47:39):
very good. But I I I have notstudied this, but it has been my
impression that the best of thebest, they just have a real
grounded energy about them andthey make smart choices for
their health.
If they have, like you'resaying, if they have to miss a
run, they miss a run. If ifthey're not feeling well, they
might take the day off. Whereasthose next those next best,
(48:05):
there's sometimes, a veryobsessive rigid tension about
them. And I've sometimeswondered if that prevents them
from being as good as they couldbe. No.
I've I've sometimes wonderedthat. Like, the ones that are
just completely obsessive andwill not miss something. I I
I've wondered that. And it'sjust it's very it's just
anecdotal. It's just fromhanging out with lots of lots of
(48:27):
athletes and yeah, I've livedbut I've what I've noticed is
that the the best make wisedecisions for their long term
health and well-being.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
I like that. Are there any, online resources or
books that you would recommendfor people who want to dive a
bit deeper into this topic?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Let's see. I like like the the
the Macmillan running site,which I think has lots of good
information.
I've done some writing for them.Also, there's a there's a fellow
called Alex Hutchinson who has awebsite called sweat sweat
(49:05):
science. He's on Twitter. Hassome very always has some very
interesting up to date things.That's probably where to go to
get current.
That's where I should go to getcurrent.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah. It's funny about Alex. He, his name comes
up often on my podcast and heactually lives in my
neighborhood. I see himperiodically.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. That's cool. That's really
cool. Yeah.
That's really cool. I know Ireally like his stuff. There's
another there's another podcastI I enjoy that talks about
mastery in all sorts ofdifferent sports. It's called
Finding Mastery by a sportspsychologist called Michael
Gervais and he talks about,expertise in numerous wide
(49:46):
reaching fields like not justsports. Very interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
I think I yes. Someone mentioned that to me the
other day as well. And, does hedo some work with the Seattle
Seahawk?
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah. He does. Yep. Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Okay. Same guy.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yep. Same guy. And then, books. There's one that
like there's one that's reallyfascinating. You might people
might really enjoy that I reallyenjoyed.
It's called the rise ofSuperman, and it talks about,
the experience of what's calledflow state And flow state is is
(50:20):
is basically the name for it'sthe believe it or not, flow
state is the scientific name forwhat we refer to as being in the
zone. So so those days whenthings just feel amazing and
wonderful, And it's somethingthat's common across all all
activities really, but it's useda lot. It's referred to a lot in
sport and basically what flowstate is is a % focused on the
(50:43):
task at hand withoutdistraction. But the book, The
Rise of Superman, it talks a lotabout extreme sport. Every so
often it gets pretty grandiose.
So as someone who who is quitestrictly educated in, science
and how you say things, so everysometimes I cringe at that, the
book the book on the whole iswonderful and there's a lot of
(51:03):
science in it. There's someterrific stories and it really,
opens a person's mind to thepossibilities of what we can
accomplish in flow state orbasically in a state of % focus.
So yeah, the rise of Superman.There's a great book by Terry
Orlik, which is old now, but agreat book called Psyching for
(51:24):
Sport, which it provides greatlike great explanations for how
our brain works in sport andalso some real useful exercises
and worksheets. So that's a goodone.
Gosh, there's a bunch I couldtell you. I I have like I like
to read a lot that is a littlebit outside not like, outside
(51:48):
the field of sports psychology,but still very relevant. Like,
the field of positivepsychology, basically the study
of flourishing and and andachievement has produced
research in, like, grit, forexample, like you mentioned,
and, creativity and, originalideas. So, like, I've enjoyed
books. There's the book Grit byAngela Duckworth, which is
(52:10):
really good.
The book, there's a book, Peak,written by Andres Erickson, who
basically the founder of theresearch on expertise. I say the
founder, a very influentialresearcher on the field of
expertise. There's books on ondeveloping mastery and
creativity by a fellow calledScott Kaufman. They're called
(52:31):
Ungifted and Wired to Create. SoI I admit, I I really I tend to
gravitate towards books thatthey rely on the periphery of
sports psychology.
And then, there's a wonderfulbook. I really am also a fan of
mindfulness and easternphilosophy and the use of
(52:51):
eastern philosophy for sport andto enhance I really think that's
where a lot of performanceenhancement in the mental side
for sport is headed. There's areally cool book called Radical
Acceptance, which is much moreit's much more therapy oriented,
but as you read through it youcan imagine how it would
increase somebody's emotional,agility, give you approaches to
(53:13):
things you might never havethought of.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Who's the author of that book?
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Tara Brach. Yeah. T a r a b r a c h. Yeah. Those are
those are more like my morerecent readings, all of which I
would say you could draw youcould draw useful.
You could use useful informationfor sport from those things.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah. Not even just sport, perhaps just life in
general. Many of those.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Well, that's fantastic. Well, Shannon,
listen, I wanna thank you foryour time and expertise and,
where can people connect withyou online if they want to,
reach out and touch base or justperhaps follow, some of your
your writing, etcetera?
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah. You know, as I mentioned to you, the content I
should say this content on mywebsite is a little bit out of
date, mostly because I workreally closely with a couple of
organizations. So to connectwith me. Oh, and you know what,
one thing I'd really like tomention too, I do work for a
Canadian company called B78,which is a Jasper Blake's
(54:19):
triathlon company. So I'm alsoassociated with B78.
So information and contactinformation for me can be found
on B78 website. It can also befound at hypo2sport.com, which
is my American company I workfor here in Flagstaff. My own
website issweetperformances.wordpress.com,
(54:46):
I believe. And one of my greatpassions, I guess, is writing
about sport, I guess with a bitof a philosophical bent, and I I
I would say the most up to datepart of that website is the tab
that says personal thoughts onsport. I do I write for that
quite frequently, and so I wouldrecommend people check that out.
(55:08):
The best way to reach me ifanybody wants to reach me is my
email which is Shannonhypo2sportdot com. Yeah, I'm happy to
answer questions. I doconsultations over the phone and
yeah, I really if anybody hasany questions or need help,
please feel free to reach outand happy to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
That's awesome. Well, again, thanks very much. I'd
like to personally thank you andI'm sure the listeners will
really appreciate and, takeaction with some of the, advice
you've provided today. So,thanks again, Shannon.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
Cool. Thank you. Thank you very much, Far.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Thanks for listening to the Healthinomics Podcast at
w w w dot healthinomics dot com.
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