April 11, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of the Investor Club Roundup, Joey Romero chats with Kaaren Hall of OCREIA and Derek Harms of NSDREI. They explore their clubs’ missions, meeting formats, and how they're helping investors navigate today’s shifting market. From self-directed IRAs and assisted living to local real estate trends in Orange County and San Diego, this episode offers valuable insights, strategies, and the power of community in real estate investing.
For more information on this month’s featured clubs and speakers, please see below:
Orange County Real Estate Investors Association
North San Diego Real Estate Investors Association, Inc
In this episode:
- Meet the guests: Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA and Derek Harms of North San Diego Real Estate Investors (NSDREI)
- Introduction to OCREIA and NSDREI: Mission, community, and core values
Real estate meeting schedules and investor demographics in Orange County and San Diego - Key differences between investing in Orange County vs. San Diego real estate markets
- Local investment strategies tailored to Southern California real estate opportunities
- Why join a local REIA: Networking, education, and market insights
The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669. For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.
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Narrator (00:01):
Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a
show committed to bringing youinsights from thought leaders
shaping the real estateindustry. In each episode, we'll
dive into conversations withindustry experts and local
insiders, all aimed at helpingyou thrive in an ever-changing
real estate market. continuingthe legacy that Bruce Norris
(00:24):
created, sharing valuableknowledge, and empowering you on
your real estate journey.
Whether you're a seasoned pro ora newcomer, this is your go-to
source for insider tips, markettrends and success strategies.
Here's your host, Craig Evans.
Joey Romero (00:44):
Welcome everybody to The Norris Group Real Estate
Podcast and our very own whatdid I call this? The Investor
Club Real Estate Roundup.
Alright, so last month we hadChristina Suter, we had Mitch
Craighead and Rich Rice for ourinaugural monthly show. And
today we have a couple offriends of The Norris Group. We
(01:06):
have Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA,but she is the person in charge
and who runs OCREIA. And we havewith us today, also Derek Harms
with NSDREI. He's the presidentof that club. So welcome guys.
Thank you for being on.
Kaaren Hall (01:28):
Thanks, Joey, we are good.
Joey Romero (01:32):
Thank you.
Derek Harms (01:33):
So that is sure.
Joey Romero (01:36):
Last week I started with an icebreaker, and this is
going to kind of be mytradition. I'm going to start
with an icebreaker again. SoKaaren, we'll start with you.
What is the last book that youread and what was the biggest
takeaway from that book? Excludeyour book.
Kaaren Hall (01:50):
Yeah, I know. Yeah, the last book I read was, oh,
wait a minute, I just happen tohave a copy a shameless plug of
the A BiggerPockets Guide toSelf-Directed IRA Investing. I
do recommend it. But no, thatwasn't the last book I read
that, look, the last book I readis The Gap and The Gain and,
that is, it was a good book as atimely book to read. It's,
(02:11):
really about mindset, you know,and it's about not focusing on,
you know, got, I've got thisideal up here and but I'm not
measuring up to my ideal andbeating yourself up, you know,
it's about how far have youcome, you know, and I think for
all of us, and we've known eachother all, a long time, we can
all look back and see how farwe've come and how much more
(02:33):
positive and rewarding that is.
So I didn't I thought it wasgoing to be more of a business
book. I didn't know was such amindset book, because I a lot of
people in my CEO group have readit, but it was, it was just
perfect. It's always good toremember to measure our gains
and our successes, and, youknow, measure ourselves that
way, because no one's going tobe perfect.
Joey Romero (02:55):
Absolutely. Derek, what's the last book you read?
Derek Harms (02:59):
I do want to comment on The Gap and The Gain.
I read that a couple years ago,and I definitely vouch for that
book. And I think for me, it wasjust like almost one simple
sentence, and it's pretty muchin the title of that book. So
focus on the on the gain, notthe gap. And it's so easy in our
industries, to always be chasingthat next achievement, that next
(03:22):
milestone, that next incomenumber, or that next amount of
properties. And it's so easy tolet yourself get in this weird
mindset funk of always focusingthe gap that you have yet to get
over, and the gain is just somuch more important. I mean, you
look at our careers, where westarted, however many years ago,
(03:43):
and it's like, focus on that andthe gains you've made, and it's
just such a better way to live.
So Kaaren, I'm glad youmentioned that's a great book
for me. I'm going to go a littledifferent direction with this.
I've read a lot of the personaldevelopment books, and, you
know, the self improvement and Icurrently still read quite a few
of them, and I have, I have oneright now that I just started
(04:04):
reading called Unstuck. The lastself improvement book I read was
called the 12 week year. But I'mgoing to go a different
direction, as I said. And I justfinished a book called Forgotten
Island, and it to most peoplethat will mean anything. But
it's a, it's a it's a book, andit's a true story about a man in
(04:25):
World War Two who was stuck onan island in the Pacific that
the Japanese invaded and onMidway and he was able to go and
hide out for three years beforethe allies came back to save
him, essentially, and it's thisreally cool story of how he
worked at the locals and hid incaves, and I almost was caught
(04:47):
and shot a bunch of times. Andhonestly, like in that book, I
just realized how much I missedreading in a non fiction book
that wasn't about personaldevelopment, it was just nice to
have that, like just kind ofescape and have some reading
that wasn't just focused ongetting better at something.
Kaaren Hall (05:12):
I gotta ask, did the guy have a volleyball,
right?
Derek Harms (05:15):
Yeah, no, no volleyball. But man, did he have
all kinds of different thingsthat were just crazy to think
about and we forget about, youknow, being so long ago. Yeah,
World War Two wasn't that longago. So it's just really cool,
really cool read.
Joey Romero (05:31):
So what was your takeaway?
Derek Harms (05:34):
My takeaway was that I needed, I need to read
more non fiction, non personaldevelopment books that that was
my takeaway. I was, I reallyenjoyed it, and it was such a
nice thing to do before I wentto bed, I found myself looking
forward to it every night. Andthat was my takeaway. Was that,
Okay, I gotta mix in some moreof these. It's a really nice
balance.
Joey Romero (05:55):
Awesome. Well, the I'm currently reading Poor
Charlie's Almanack, and that's,I'm just starting out. It's
really interesting. I love howhe's talking about, you'd need
to know a little bit abouteverything you know. But the
last book I read that I finishedwas Die with Zero, and it's
(06:18):
basically the premise. And mytakeaway is, well, first of all,
he's like, try to find out.
Like, when you're estimated,like, he's like, literally,
like, go to the actuaries andtry to find out where you're
going to live to and then giveyourself a little bit of space.
But the goal is to not get tothe end of your life and have
all this money saved up, becausea lot of people end up with, you
(06:41):
know, couple million dollars,and then they die, or they get
to a place in their life wherethey can't travel physically
anymore. You know, they they runout of friends, they run out of
family, they run out of thethings that bring him enjoyment.
So he's like,find your yourpeak, and then, you know, kind
of stop working. And basicallyyour job, or your life, should
(07:05):
be about not how much you save,but how many memories can you
bank. Because nobody at the endof the at their life and their
deathbed is going to be like,well, let me check my balance.
They're just going to recall allthose things that they did and
all those things that theydidn't do. So that was a really
cool book that was your...
Kaaren Hall (07:24):
I'm Like, what I do at Christmas is I give my kids
experiences and not gifts,because see, if you try to
remember what you got last yearfor Christmas under the tree,
you won't remember, but you'llremember a vacation, right?
Joey Romero (07:34):
Yeah, of course.
Alright, so, Derek, go ahead.
Derek Harms (07:39):
No, I said absolutely I'm totally on board
with that.
Joey Romero (07:42):
So Alright, so let's get into the show. A
little bit more about the club.
So Kaaren, I'm going to give youthe first opportunity, because
Derek's Club is a little bitdifferent. You're the owner of
OCREIA. So tell us about OCREIA,where it's at, when it meets,
you know, and what's all about?
Kaaren Hall (08:00):
Like the history of it, or where we're at....?
Joey Romero (08:02):
Not quite yet, just like, you know where you are
right now.
Kaaren Hall (08:05):
Yeah, where we're at, well, you know, we were
hoping in 2025 to get back toregular in person meetings. So
we started with Bruce inJanuary. But the what I found
ever since COVID, when we wenton Zoom, that we have a lot of
national speakers. And so we'rereally able to attract a lot of
the top speakers because we'reon Zoom, and so it's a higher
(08:26):
quality presentation. You know,some of the top speakers, like,
I don't know, besides Bruce, butso, so we'll do other things
that are local, but we're goingto keep the club on Zoom for the
time being, because that's howwe can get the best speakers. So
that's where we're at right now,with Vinny Chopra coming in to
talk about residential assistedliving. And it's really a timely
(08:53):
thing, because I'm sure you'veheard of the silver tsunami,
right? Yeah,
Joey Romero (08:56):
Well, especially since we've been in Florida.
Kaaren Hall (08:58):
Yeah, you're right.
So 10,000 people turning 65every day, you know, for yeah,
it was 10 years. And I'm sureit's still going on. I mean, so
we've got all these seniors, andI think seniors out for the
first time, like ever inAmerican history, outrank
newborns. So as our populationactually shrinks, which is
surprising. And so all theseseniors need a place to live,
(09:21):
and, you know, and so, theseresidential assisted living
homes, is a great way forinvestors to invest, but also to
provide community service. Andit's great for IRAs. It's a
passive kind of a thing. And soit's, you know, just ticks all
the box, all the boxes in myworld.
Joey Romero (09:41):
When do you guys meet?
Kaaren Hall (09:43):
We meet the second Thursday of every month. We
always have since 2012 and we'remeeting on Zoom.
Joey Romero (09:49):
Okay, Derek, now yours is a little different,
because when I first came overwith The Norris group, it was
Eric Siragusa, who's thepresident. You guys actually run
the the club a little bitdifferent, it's a, you know,
it's NSDREI, and it's got aboard, right? And so you're the
president board. How does, howdoes that work? Can you tell
people how the board works? Andthen go into when you guys meet,
(10:10):
and you know what your focus is?
Derek Harms (10:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm glad you mentioned that,because I do hear people
incorrectly, call it my club,right there, if you're a club,
and I know that's just peoplesaying that, because I'm the
face of it in front of ouraudiences and on our zoom calls,
etc, but it truly is a acumulative group effort. We do
have a board of directors.
(10:35):
There's nine of us, and it takesevery one of us and all of our
energies and efforts to keep thequality that we like to think
that we have and it's it reallyis a blessing to work alongside
so many great people. And youknow, people sometimes forget
that. You know, we are alegitimate 501(c)(6) nonprofit
(10:57):
organization, and all of us arevolunteers, and we donate our
time and energy and efforts tokeep this thing, keep this thing
going. And I'm really gratefulto be a part of it and to have
such a great, a great group,because it when you get into the
weeds of these things, right,there's the location you have to
deal with the food and thedrinks and the payments and the
(11:18):
lights and the projectors andthe screens and audio video and
the financials and the nonprofitreportings and like all this
stuff, right? That, like peoplewho show up, come and do some
networking, have a drink andlearn something that night, and
maybe, maybe make a relationshipor two and then move on. It's
really easy to not remember,like, Oh, hey, there is a lot of
(11:39):
energy that goes into this. Andnot to say that from a negative
perspective, but from a gratefulplace, like I am grateful for
all of us on the board that thatare willing to do that. And we
meet the third Tuesday of everymonth in VISTA at the
Shadowridge Country Club.
Shadowridge Golf Club, I shouldsay VISTA is in North County San
Diego. The NSDREI acronym isNorth San Diego Real Estate
(12:02):
Investor Association. Kind of alot of words there, but our name
depicts who we are, North SanDiego Real Estate Investor. And
we actually are doing things alittle different moving forward.
So we have a zoom call in inApril coming up in in a week,
but then towards the end of theyear and into next year, we're
moving into back into full inperson events. And we love the
(12:25):
zoom capabilities of capturingspeaking talent from across the
country. Although some of thatis lost, we feel some of the
essence of of a real estateinvestor association is about
the networking and thedeveloping relationships and
getting to break bread and shakehands with those that are in
(12:47):
your industry. So we're startingto move back to that you're
moving forward, and we cannot bemore grateful. And of course,
The Norris Group, starring BruceNorris will be joining us in
person June at our 21stanniversary party. Yes, that is
correct. We have been anorganization for 21 years, and
hopefully 21 more.
Joey Romero (13:10):
So Derek, take me back to when you first came on
board, like, you know, yourfirst day at NSDREI. How long
were you an investor that justcame to the meetings before you
joined the board, before you,you know, rose through the
ranks.
Derek Harms (13:24):
So I will do my best to keep this short, but
there are some interestingdetails that went into this. So
I believe this was 2014 that, mypartner and I had a house that
we were flipping in in a towncalled Poway, which is the North
San Diego suburb, and agentleman called me and asked me
(13:47):
to meet him at the property. Hewas an interested buyer. We had
the home on the market, and hedid not have a buyer's agent. I
was listing the property as theagent, and I show up to the
property, and I mind you, I hadjust started going to the NSDREI
and SDCIA, and anything I coulddo to really saturate myself in
San Diego, real estateinvesting, and I see a gentleman
(14:10):
open the car door, and I look athim, and I'm like, "Huh, wait,
you're the president of theNSDREI, right? And I just joined
your club. I've been going nowfor a handful of months." And so
we started chatting. That wasEric Siragusa, and so he and his
wife were there to look at thehouse, and we ended up getting
multiple offers. And it didn'tend up work out, working on for
(14:32):
Eric and Susan. But what didwork out was I knew that there
was a situation across thestreet with an agent friend of
mine, it was a divorcesituation, and ended up calling
that agent, and we worked out adeal to where Eric and Susan
bought that house, and theylived there for many years, and
it was a really sticky, trickytransaction with a lot of hair
(14:56):
on it, and we ended up gettingthe deal done. And after that,
Eric was like. "Hey, I reallylike the way you handled that
transaction. Would you beinterested in potentially
helping out on the board alittle bit more?" And it didn't
start as an official boardposition. I was helping out with
marketing, and then I believethat I was doing that for a
year, maybe more than that. Andthen a board position opened up,
(15:17):
and they voted me on the board.
And I believe in 2020, was when,2021 was when Eric formally
moved to Florida and vacated thePresident's spot. Eric is still
a very cherished member of ourboard of directors, and we
appreciate all his years ofinsight and experience and
input. But now I have, I've beenthe president now for the last
(15:37):
four years. This will be thefifth, the fourth year.
Joey Romero (15:41):
So, Kaaren, when did you start OCREIA?
Kaaren Hall (15:45):
Yeah, I started in 2012 and so, you know, I'd
started uDirect Ira services in2009 and then REIA, when you
have a REIA, which is a RealEstate Investor Association,
it's a part of a national groupcalled International Ria,
obviously. And so there's a REIAin every NSA major statistical
(16:05):
area, or metro Statistical Area,something like that. So the REIA
for Orange County, well, I got acall, and the people from
national rear were saying,"Yeah, we want you to open the
one in Orange County." And Isaid, "no, like, I've got two
kids, raising two kids, and I,you know, got this, you know,
business, and I just don't havebandwidth." And so they said, so
(16:27):
they kept talking to me, Well,you know, like, why don't you
come to what is it? It'sSeattle. It's not It's Bellevue.
Bellevue Washington. It's sobeautiful. "We're having a
conference come over toWashington and to Seattle and
come to this conference." So Idid, after telling them No
numerous times. So I go withthis huge conference, and
(16:50):
there's a speaker way there, upin the front and it's getting
toward the end there, and then,as they're saying, the closing
comments, the speaker from thefront says, and "We would like
to welcome our newest clubpresident, Kaaren Hall." It's
just volunteers. So I thought,well, what the heck, you know?
(17:11):
We and just cut it and dug in,you know, got a website, got the
marketing, you know, andeverything found on venue. Which
is, which we used the wholetime. It was, you know, the
Avenue of the Arts hotel inCosta Mesa. What a great venue,
right by the symphony hall andeverything. And so we met there
for years and years up until2020, COVID. And then now we
(17:33):
just when Bruce was in town, wecame back. Wow, that was
something dusting off theequipment. But, that's a lot of
years, you know, that's likeit's 12 plus years. You know,
we're in our 13th year ofmeeting every Thursday, every
Thursday, every second Thursdayof the month.
Joey Romero (17:49):
Well, I gotta commend both of you, because
it's not easy. I know it's justa monthly you can say it's just
a monthly gig, but to put thatall together, you know,
sometimes, you know, I'mscrambling to get just a guest
on the podcast. It's not easyall the time, except for you
guys to be doing it for thatlong and just the impact that
(18:09):
you're having on everybody, it'sgreat. So Derek, who's attending
your meetings, you know? Is itrealtors? Is it brand new,
investors, season, bets, who?
What's your demographics like?
Derek Harms (18:22):
So we like to take the temperature of the room
pretty often, and I would sayit's a myriad of all kinds of
different folks. We have somereally experienced investors
with huge portfolios, and a lotof first timers have never done
a deal. And then really everytype of investor in between, you
know, one to two deals, 10, 20,and I think that's what's great
(18:46):
about it, is that you can get ina room where you can make some
connections for people to learnand to absorb some of the
knowledge that some of theseguys possess from being in the
trenches for so long. We haverealtors, we have tradesmen, you
know, such as contractors orreal estate photographers or
staging companies, etc. So itreally is everything real
(19:11):
estate. And you know, you do geta lot of the retail side, so
realtors, etc. But what I likeabout that is that being a
realtor is a really good path tobecoming your own investor and
you have access to inventory.
And I believe you and I andBruce talked about this on a
podcast a couple years ago. It'sabout that kind of natural
(19:31):
trajectory that you can takehaving the realtor background.
And so we, really do lookforward to having all different
demographics show up. And wealways ask people at the
beginning of each meeting toraise their hand if it was their
first time. And we're alwaysblessed to see how many times
people raise their hand and havecome to the club for the first
(19:54):
time, and it really puts a smileon your face.
Joey Romero (20:00):
Kaaren, same question, who's coming to
OCREIA?
Kaaren Hall (20:03):
Yeah, well, I don't see them because they're on zoom
right buT a lot of times it's aself directed IRA investor too,
since we've got that tie in andpeople who are trying to learn
about real estate investing, andso we talk about all the aspects
of it. I know NSDREI does aswell, but like bringing in
Keystone CPA to talk about tax,or maybe cost seg, or talking
(20:26):
about the different assetclasses as well. So it's, you
know, it's largely investors,and they've always got really
great questions. But I love whatDerek said about having a career
in real estate, how that leadsto being a good investor. That's
my background as well, is RealEstate and and it's just, it's
just a fascinating way to buildwealth. I think if I could just
(20:48):
back up a little bit, when I, in2012 you may remember,
obviously, the Great Recession,and you could buy properties on
tape. Remember that? And soeverybody in the room was a
flipper at the time, you knowthat was the audience, and
people were buying propertiesfor, you know, 40, $50,000 all
over the country. And it was, itwas really the Wild West, it
(21:12):
seemed, where you could justcrazy. You could buy so much
property. And of course, thingschange. And I just am thinking
about as the years go by, like,especially looking at Bruce's
charts, like, I remember duringthe recession, thing, he is
never going to get better, youknow, like, how are we going to
get out of this? We had this,like, large amount of inventory,
remember, like, the shadowinventory. How will we ever
(21:34):
overcome this? And no matterwhat problem we've ever been up
against, that's what I loveabout Bruce, is, like, we've
gone through everything, youknow, it just wasn't that, which
is things work themselves out.
There's a, you know, and I'dneed a buyer for for every piece
of real estate, and an answerfor every situation. And that's
what we like to cover at OCREIA,you know, all the various
(21:55):
aspects of real estate investingand the challenges and the
solutions.
Joey Romero (22:03):
Well, that's one of the things that, you know, I
always ask Aaron, why do we goto these specific clubs? I know
there's a bunch more clubs, andhe would just say, these are the
ones that we trust for one,they're focused on, not what
they can get out of the peopleattending. But, you know, how
can they help, You know,investors and really a focus on
(22:26):
education, you know. I know, Iknow Kaaren and you used to, I
mean, you still do a little bitof a local economic update every
meeting. And Derek, I knowyou've been a data guy forever.
So my next question, and Kaaren,on, you guys live in kind of
like a you're you guys have aninteresting pocket. You know, I
(22:51):
like, I love the way that SanDiego describes itself. But
Kaaren, I ask you first, youknow, what's unique about
investing in Orange County?
Kaaren Hall (22:59):
That you don't do it. Just kidding. Unless you're
Lynn, he you know, it's toughOrange County, it's tough to
cash flow. You know, there'sjust no question the, you know,
just a lot like San Diego too,but the values are very high. So
people are doing interestingthings, and we'll have meetings
about this. For example, ADUs,when they came up with the idea
(23:24):
that HOAs can't tell you, I haveno say in whether or not you
have an ADU on your property,that was a real way for
investors to improve whatthey're doing. Then we have
investors like Kristi Cirtwill,right? And she's the ADU girl,
for sure, but buying singlefamily homes, and adding the ADU
and getting investor money andjust, you know, doing the whole
(23:47):
soup to nuts thing like that,and other people too, from from
LA like Deborah Rozo andJennifer Maldonado, who would
buy a lot, tear it down andbuild a Fourplex, you know,
rezone a single family to amulti family, and have forced
appreciation like that. And thatwas a really great play. So I
(24:07):
suppose that's how people aredoing it in Orange County. Of
course, we have the high endinvestors who have houses that
are worth $50 million on theNewport Coast with their own
private beach. But that's noteverybody, is it? You know? So
you'll have, you'll have the oneoffs.
Joey Romero (24:23):
Derek, what's unique about investing in San
Diego?
Derek Harms (24:28):
So I would say a few things. I think
geographically, number one, thefirst thing is interesting. And
I've said this before, but I'llsay it again, right? We have
mountains to the east, CampPendleton to the north, the
ocean to the west, and Mexico tothe south. And almost all of the
desirable buildable land hasbeen built on in San Diego
(24:50):
County that really the onlytracks of land that are large
enough to build subdivisions onare in south, southeast county
or north, northeast county. Solike we're talking a significant
drive away from San Diego Metro,and there are moments being
built out there, for sure, butreally it puts an emphasis and a
(25:13):
premium on the existing stock inSan Diego County. And it's
really good for people who havehouse flipping operations, like
myself, because people stillwill probably, I say that
probably, but I imagine SanDiego will be a place that
people want to live in forever.
I mean, it's, it really is aspecial place to live, and it
isn't called the finest city inthe world for no, sorry,
(25:35):
America's Finest City. Sorry,that's the proper term, right?
It's not called America's FinestCity for for no reason, right?
It really is beautiful. And sowe feel that there will always
be a demand for housing here inSan Diego, we have a lot of
biotech, military andhospitality and healthcare. So a
lot of the main drivers here arestill here, and so we feel that
(26:00):
there will be a demand for SanDiego for a long time. But keep
in mind, San Diego, along withevery market, really, that's
what I love about real estateinvesting. If you're buying,
picking off one property, twoproperties here and there, it's
an imperfect market, and you canalways find a deal if you make
enough offers, if you know howto negotiate, you know the right
(26:22):
people. And it's not like you'regoing on Charles Schwab and
trading a stock, you know, ashare in the video, where it's
going to be the same pricethroughout the country. No, it's
if you know how to work a deal,you can always find something
it's harder to do right now,that's for sure. It we're
seeing, we're seeing a tightermarket right now, and you have
(26:45):
to be razor sharp with yourunderwriting, but it's totally
doable. I mean, we're stillbuying properties every month
and we're comfortable andconfident that they'll always be
able to.
Joey Romero (26:59):
Well, that's what Bill Allen was talking about is
our jobs as investors arefinding inefficiencies in the
market and then knowing yournumbers and how to take
advantage of thoseinefficiencies, right?
Kaaren Hall (27:11):
You remind me of Pete Fortunato. "Why would you
sell a beautiful home likethis?"
Joey Romero (27:15):
Yeah. Alright, everybody that's going to do it
for part one of our InvestorClub Roundup Show. Please stay
tuned next week for part two.
See you then.
Narrator (27:26):
For more information on hard money loans, trust deed
investing, and upcoming eventswith The Norris group. Check out
thenorrisgroup.com. For moreinformation on passive investing
through the DBL Capital RealEstate Investment Fund, please
visit dblapital.com.
Joey Romero (27:45):
The Norris Group originates and services loans in
California and Florida underCalifornia DRE license 01219911.
Florida mortgage lender license1577 and NMLS license 1623669.
For more information on hardmoney lending go to
thenorrisgroup.com and click thehard money tab.
Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a
show committed to bringing youinsights from thought leaders
shaping the real estateindustry. In each episode, we'll
dive into conversations withindustry experts and local
insiders, all aimed at helpingyou thrive in an ever-changing
real estate market. continuingthe legacy that Bruce Norris
(00:24):
created, sharing valuableknowledge, and empowering you on
your real estate journey.
Whether you're a seasoned pro ora newcomer, this is your go-to
source for insider tips, markettrends and success strategies.
Here's your host, Craig Evans.
Joey Romero (00:44):
Welcome everybody to The Norris Group Real Estate
Podcast and our very own whatdid I call this? The Investor
Club Real Estate Roundup.
Alright, so last month we hadChristina Suter, we had Mitch
Craighead and Rich Rice for ourinaugural monthly show. And
today we have a couple offriends of The Norris Group. We
(01:06):
have Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA,but she is the person in charge
and who runs OCREIA. And we havewith us today, also Derek Harms
with NSDREI. He's the presidentof that club. So welcome guys.
Thank you for being on.
Kaaren Hall (01:28):
Thanks, Joey, we are good.
Joey Romero (01:32):
Thank you.
Derek Harms (01:33):
So that is sure.
Joey Romero (01:36):
Last week I started with an icebreaker, and this is
going to kind of be mytradition. I'm going to start
with an icebreaker again. SoKaaren, we'll start with you.
What is the last book that youread and what was the biggest
takeaway from that book? Excludeyour book.
Kaaren Hall (01:50):
Yeah, I know. Yeah, the last book I read was, oh,
wait a minute, I just happen tohave a copy a shameless plug of
the A BiggerPockets Guide toSelf-Directed IRA Investing. I
do recommend it. But no, thatwasn't the last book I read
that, look, the last book I readis The Gap and The Gain and,
that is, it was a good book as atimely book to read. It's,
(02:11):
really about mindset, you know,and it's about not focusing on,
you know, got, I've got thisideal up here and but I'm not
measuring up to my ideal andbeating yourself up, you know,
it's about how far have youcome, you know, and I think for
all of us, and we've known eachother all, a long time, we can
all look back and see how farwe've come and how much more
(02:33):
positive and rewarding that is.
So I didn't I thought it wasgoing to be more of a business
book. I didn't know was such amindset book, because I a lot of
people in my CEO group have readit, but it was, it was just
perfect. It's always good toremember to measure our gains
and our successes, and, youknow, measure ourselves that
way, because no one's going tobe perfect.
Joey Romero (02:55):
Absolutely. Derek, what's the last book you read?
Derek Harms (02:59):
I do want to comment on The Gap and The Gain.
I read that a couple years ago,and I definitely vouch for that
book. And I think for me, it wasjust like almost one simple
sentence, and it's pretty muchin the title of that book. So
focus on the on the gain, notthe gap. And it's so easy in our
industries, to always be chasingthat next achievement, that next
(03:22):
milestone, that next incomenumber, or that next amount of
properties. And it's so easy tolet yourself get in this weird
mindset funk of always focusingthe gap that you have yet to get
over, and the gain is just somuch more important. I mean, you
look at our careers, where westarted, however many years ago,
(03:43):
and it's like, focus on that andthe gains you've made, and it's
just such a better way to live.
So Kaaren, I'm glad youmentioned that's a great book
for me. I'm going to go a littledifferent direction with this.
I've read a lot of the personaldevelopment books, and, you
know, the self improvement and Icurrently still read quite a few
of them, and I have, I have oneright now that I just started
(04:04):
reading called Unstuck. The lastself improvement book I read was
called the 12 week year. But I'mgoing to go a different
direction, as I said. And I justfinished a book called Forgotten
Island, and it to most peoplethat will mean anything. But
it's a, it's a it's a book, andit's a true story about a man in
(04:25):
World War Two who was stuck onan island in the Pacific that
the Japanese invaded and onMidway and he was able to go and
hide out for three years beforethe allies came back to save
him, essentially, and it's thisreally cool story of how he
worked at the locals and hid incaves, and I almost was caught
(04:47):
and shot a bunch of times. Andhonestly, like in that book, I
just realized how much I missedreading in a non fiction book
that wasn't about personaldevelopment, it was just nice to
have that, like just kind ofescape and have some reading
that wasn't just focused ongetting better at something.
Kaaren Hall (05:12):
I gotta ask, did the guy have a volleyball,
right?
Derek Harms (05:15):
Yeah, no, no volleyball. But man, did he have
all kinds of different thingsthat were just crazy to think
about and we forget about, youknow, being so long ago. Yeah,
World War Two wasn't that longago. So it's just really cool,
really cool read.
Joey Romero (05:31):
So what was your takeaway?
Derek Harms (05:34):
My takeaway was that I needed, I need to read
more non fiction, non personaldevelopment books that that was
my takeaway. I was, I reallyenjoyed it, and it was such a
nice thing to do before I wentto bed, I found myself looking
forward to it every night. Andthat was my takeaway. Was that,
Okay, I gotta mix in some moreof these. It's a really nice
balance.
Joey Romero (05:55):
Awesome. Well, the I'm currently reading Poor
Charlie's Almanack, and that's,I'm just starting out. It's
really interesting. I love howhe's talking about, you'd need
to know a little bit abouteverything you know. But the
last book I read that I finishedwas Die with Zero, and it's
(06:18):
basically the premise. And mytakeaway is, well, first of all,
he's like, try to find out.
Like, when you're estimated,like, he's like, literally,
like, go to the actuaries andtry to find out where you're
going to live to and then giveyourself a little bit of space.
But the goal is to not get tothe end of your life and have
all this money saved up, becausea lot of people end up with, you
(06:41):
know, couple million dollars,and then they die, or they get
to a place in their life wherethey can't travel physically
anymore. You know, they they runout of friends, they run out of
family, they run out of thethings that bring him enjoyment.
So he's like,find your yourpeak, and then, you know, kind
of stop working. And basicallyyour job, or your life, should
(07:05):
be about not how much you save,but how many memories can you
bank. Because nobody at the endof the at their life and their
deathbed is going to be like,well, let me check my balance.
They're just going to recall allthose things that they did and
all those things that theydidn't do. So that was a really
cool book that was your...
Kaaren Hall (07:24):
I'm Like, what I do at Christmas is I give my kids
experiences and not gifts,because see, if you try to
remember what you got last yearfor Christmas under the tree,
you won't remember, but you'llremember a vacation, right?
Joey Romero (07:34):
Yeah, of course.
Alright, so, Derek, go ahead.
Derek Harms (07:39):
No, I said absolutely I'm totally on board
with that.
Joey Romero (07:42):
So Alright, so let's get into the show. A
little bit more about the club.
So Kaaren, I'm going to give youthe first opportunity, because
Derek's Club is a little bitdifferent. You're the owner of
OCREIA. So tell us about OCREIA,where it's at, when it meets,
you know, and what's all about?
Kaaren Hall (08:00):
Like the history of it, or where we're at....?
Joey Romero (08:02):
Not quite yet, just like, you know where you are
right now.
Kaaren Hall (08:05):
Yeah, where we're at, well, you know, we were
hoping in 2025 to get back toregular in person meetings. So
we started with Bruce inJanuary. But the what I found
ever since COVID, when we wenton Zoom, that we have a lot of
national speakers. And so we'rereally able to attract a lot of
the top speakers because we'reon Zoom, and so it's a higher
(08:26):
quality presentation. You know,some of the top speakers, like,
I don't know, besides Bruce, butso, so we'll do other things
that are local, but we're goingto keep the club on Zoom for the
time being, because that's howwe can get the best speakers. So
that's where we're at right now,with Vinny Chopra coming in to
talk about residential assistedliving. And it's really a timely
(08:53):
thing, because I'm sure you'veheard of the silver tsunami,
right? Yeah,
Joey Romero (08:56):
Well, especially since we've been in Florida.
Kaaren Hall (08:58):
Yeah, you're right.
So 10,000 people turning 65every day, you know, for yeah,
it was 10 years. And I'm sureit's still going on. I mean, so
we've got all these seniors, andI think seniors out for the
first time, like ever inAmerican history, outrank
newborns. So as our populationactually shrinks, which is
surprising. And so all theseseniors need a place to live,
(09:21):
and, you know, and so, theseresidential assisted living
homes, is a great way forinvestors to invest, but also to
provide community service. Andit's great for IRAs. It's a
passive kind of a thing. And soit's, you know, just ticks all
the box, all the boxes in myworld.
Joey Romero (09:41):
When do you guys meet?
Kaaren Hall (09:43):
We meet the second Thursday of every month. We
always have since 2012 and we'remeeting on Zoom.
Joey Romero (09:49):
Okay, Derek, now yours is a little different,
because when I first came overwith The Norris group, it was
Eric Siragusa, who's thepresident. You guys actually run
the the club a little bitdifferent, it's a, you know,
it's NSDREI, and it's got aboard, right? And so you're the
president board. How does, howdoes that work? Can you tell
people how the board works? Andthen go into when you guys meet,
(10:10):
and you know what your focus is?
Derek Harms (10:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm glad you mentioned that,because I do hear people
incorrectly, call it my club,right there, if you're a club,
and I know that's just peoplesaying that, because I'm the
face of it in front of ouraudiences and on our zoom calls,
etc, but it truly is a acumulative group effort. We do
have a board of directors.
(10:35):
There's nine of us, and it takesevery one of us and all of our
energies and efforts to keep thequality that we like to think
that we have and it's it reallyis a blessing to work alongside
so many great people. And youknow, people sometimes forget
that. You know, we are alegitimate 501(c)(6) nonprofit
(10:57):
organization, and all of us arevolunteers, and we donate our
time and energy and efforts tokeep this thing, keep this thing
going. And I'm really gratefulto be a part of it and to have
such a great, a great group,because it when you get into the
weeds of these things, right,there's the location you have to
deal with the food and thedrinks and the payments and the
(11:18):
lights and the projectors andthe screens and audio video and
the financials and the nonprofitreportings and like all this
stuff, right? That, like peoplewho show up, come and do some
networking, have a drink andlearn something that night, and
maybe, maybe make a relationshipor two and then move on. It's
really easy to not remember,like, Oh, hey, there is a lot of
(11:39):
energy that goes into this. Andnot to say that from a negative
perspective, but from a gratefulplace, like I am grateful for
all of us on the board that thatare willing to do that. And we
meet the third Tuesday of everymonth in VISTA at the
Shadowridge Country Club.
Shadowridge Golf Club, I shouldsay VISTA is in North County San
Diego. The NSDREI acronym isNorth San Diego Real Estate
(12:02):
Investor Association. Kind of alot of words there, but our name
depicts who we are, North SanDiego Real Estate Investor. And
we actually are doing things alittle different moving forward.
So we have a zoom call in inApril coming up in in a week,
but then towards the end of theyear and into next year, we're
moving into back into full inperson events. And we love the
(12:25):
zoom capabilities of capturingspeaking talent from across the
country. Although some of thatis lost, we feel some of the
essence of of a real estateinvestor association is about
the networking and thedeveloping relationships and
getting to break bread and shakehands with those that are in
(12:47):
your industry. So we're startingto move back to that you're
moving forward, and we cannot bemore grateful. And of course,
The Norris Group, starring BruceNorris will be joining us in
person June at our 21stanniversary party. Yes, that is
correct. We have been anorganization for 21 years, and
hopefully 21 more.
Joey Romero (13:10):
So Derek, take me back to when you first came on
board, like, you know, yourfirst day at NSDREI. How long
were you an investor that justcame to the meetings before you
joined the board, before you,you know, rose through the
ranks.
Derek Harms (13:24):
So I will do my best to keep this short, but
there are some interestingdetails that went into this. So
I believe this was 2014 that, mypartner and I had a house that
we were flipping in in a towncalled Poway, which is the North
San Diego suburb, and agentleman called me and asked me
(13:47):
to meet him at the property. Hewas an interested buyer. We had
the home on the market, and hedid not have a buyer's agent. I
was listing the property as theagent, and I show up to the
property, and I mind you, I hadjust started going to the NSDREI
and SDCIA, and anything I coulddo to really saturate myself in
San Diego, real estateinvesting, and I see a gentleman
(14:10):
open the car door, and I look athim, and I'm like, "Huh, wait,
you're the president of theNSDREI, right? And I just joined
your club. I've been going nowfor a handful of months." And so
we started chatting. That wasEric Siragusa, and so he and his
wife were there to look at thehouse, and we ended up getting
multiple offers. And it didn'tend up work out, working on for
(14:32):
Eric and Susan. But what didwork out was I knew that there
was a situation across thestreet with an agent friend of
mine, it was a divorcesituation, and ended up calling
that agent, and we worked out adeal to where Eric and Susan
bought that house, and theylived there for many years, and
it was a really sticky, trickytransaction with a lot of hair
(14:56):
on it, and we ended up gettingthe deal done. And after that,
Eric was like. "Hey, I reallylike the way you handled that
transaction. Would you beinterested in potentially
helping out on the board alittle bit more?" And it didn't
start as an official boardposition. I was helping out with
marketing, and then I believethat I was doing that for a
year, maybe more than that. Andthen a board position opened up,
(15:17):
and they voted me on the board.
And I believe in 2020, was when,2021 was when Eric formally
moved to Florida and vacated thePresident's spot. Eric is still
a very cherished member of ourboard of directors, and we
appreciate all his years ofinsight and experience and
input. But now I have, I've beenthe president now for the last
(15:37):
four years. This will be thefifth, the fourth year.
Joey Romero (15:41):
So, Kaaren, when did you start OCREIA?
Kaaren Hall (15:45):
Yeah, I started in 2012 and so, you know, I'd
started uDirect Ira services in2009 and then REIA, when you
have a REIA, which is a RealEstate Investor Association,
it's a part of a national groupcalled International Ria,
obviously. And so there's a REIAin every NSA major statistical
(16:05):
area, or metro Statistical Area,something like that. So the REIA
for Orange County, well, I got acall, and the people from
national rear were saying,"Yeah, we want you to open the
one in Orange County." And Isaid, "no, like, I've got two
kids, raising two kids, and I,you know, got this, you know,
business, and I just don't havebandwidth." And so they said, so
(16:27):
they kept talking to me, Well,you know, like, why don't you
come to what is it? It'sSeattle. It's not It's Bellevue.
Bellevue Washington. It's sobeautiful. "We're having a
conference come over toWashington and to Seattle and
come to this conference." So Idid, after telling them No
numerous times. So I go withthis huge conference, and
(16:50):
there's a speaker way there, upin the front and it's getting
toward the end there, and then,as they're saying, the closing
comments, the speaker from thefront says, and "We would like
to welcome our newest clubpresident, Kaaren Hall." It's
just volunteers. So I thought,well, what the heck, you know?
(17:11):
We and just cut it and dug in,you know, got a website, got the
marketing, you know, andeverything found on venue. Which
is, which we used the wholetime. It was, you know, the
Avenue of the Arts hotel inCosta Mesa. What a great venue,
right by the symphony hall andeverything. And so we met there
for years and years up until2020, COVID. And then now we
(17:33):
just when Bruce was in town, wecame back. Wow, that was
something dusting off theequipment. But, that's a lot of
years, you know, that's likeit's 12 plus years. You know,
we're in our 13th year ofmeeting every Thursday, every
Thursday, every second Thursdayof the month.
Joey Romero (17:49):
Well, I gotta commend both of you, because
it's not easy. I know it's justa monthly you can say it's just
a monthly gig, but to put thatall together, you know,
sometimes, you know, I'mscrambling to get just a guest
on the podcast. It's not easyall the time, except for you
guys to be doing it for thatlong and just the impact that
(18:09):
you're having on everybody, it'sgreat. So Derek, who's attending
your meetings, you know? Is itrealtors? Is it brand new,
investors, season, bets, who?
What's your demographics like?
Derek Harms (18:22):
So we like to take the temperature of the room
pretty often, and I would sayit's a myriad of all kinds of
different folks. We have somereally experienced investors
with huge portfolios, and a lotof first timers have never done
a deal. And then really everytype of investor in between, you
know, one to two deals, 10, 20,and I think that's what's great
(18:46):
about it, is that you can get ina room where you can make some
connections for people to learnand to absorb some of the
knowledge that some of theseguys possess from being in the
trenches for so long. We haverealtors, we have tradesmen, you
know, such as contractors orreal estate photographers or
staging companies, etc. So itreally is everything real
(19:11):
estate. And you know, you do geta lot of the retail side, so
realtors, etc. But what I likeabout that is that being a
realtor is a really good path tobecoming your own investor and
you have access to inventory.
And I believe you and I andBruce talked about this on a
podcast a couple years ago. It'sabout that kind of natural
(19:31):
trajectory that you can takehaving the realtor background.
And so we, really do lookforward to having all different
demographics show up. And wealways ask people at the
beginning of each meeting toraise their hand if it was their
first time. And we're alwaysblessed to see how many times
people raise their hand and havecome to the club for the first
(19:54):
time, and it really puts a smileon your face.
Joey Romero (20:00):
Kaaren, same question, who's coming to
OCREIA?
Kaaren Hall (20:03):
Yeah, well, I don't see them because they're on zoom
right buT a lot of times it's aself directed IRA investor too,
since we've got that tie in andpeople who are trying to learn
about real estate investing, andso we talk about all the aspects
of it. I know NSDREI does aswell, but like bringing in
Keystone CPA to talk about tax,or maybe cost seg, or talking
(20:26):
about the different assetclasses as well. So it's, you
know, it's largely investors,and they've always got really
great questions. But I love whatDerek said about having a career
in real estate, how that leadsto being a good investor. That's
my background as well, is RealEstate and and it's just, it's
just a fascinating way to buildwealth. I think if I could just
(20:48):
back up a little bit, when I, in2012 you may remember,
obviously, the Great Recession,and you could buy properties on
tape. Remember that? And soeverybody in the room was a
flipper at the time, you knowthat was the audience, and
people were buying propertiesfor, you know, 40, $50,000 all
over the country. And it was, itwas really the Wild West, it
(21:12):
seemed, where you could justcrazy. You could buy so much
property. And of course, thingschange. And I just am thinking
about as the years go by, like,especially looking at Bruce's
charts, like, I remember duringthe recession, thing, he is
never going to get better, youknow, like, how are we going to
get out of this? We had this,like, large amount of inventory,
remember, like, the shadowinventory. How will we ever
(21:34):
overcome this? And no matterwhat problem we've ever been up
against, that's what I loveabout Bruce, is, like, we've
gone through everything, youknow, it just wasn't that, which
is things work themselves out.
There's a, you know, and I'dneed a buyer for for every piece
of real estate, and an answerfor every situation. And that's
what we like to cover at OCREIA,you know, all the various
(21:55):
aspects of real estate investingand the challenges and the
solutions.
Joey Romero (22:03):
Well, that's one of the things that, you know, I
always ask Aaron, why do we goto these specific clubs? I know
there's a bunch more clubs, andhe would just say, these are the
ones that we trust for one,they're focused on, not what
they can get out of the peopleattending. But, you know, how
can they help, You know,investors and really a focus on
(22:26):
education, you know. I know, Iknow Kaaren and you used to, I
mean, you still do a little bitof a local economic update every
meeting. And Derek, I knowyou've been a data guy forever.
So my next question, and Kaaren,on, you guys live in kind of
like a you're you guys have aninteresting pocket. You know, I
(22:51):
like, I love the way that SanDiego describes itself. But
Kaaren, I ask you first, youknow, what's unique about
investing in Orange County?
Kaaren Hall (22:59):
That you don't do it. Just kidding. Unless you're
Lynn, he you know, it's toughOrange County, it's tough to
cash flow. You know, there'sjust no question the, you know,
just a lot like San Diego too,but the values are very high. So
people are doing interestingthings, and we'll have meetings
about this. For example, ADUs,when they came up with the idea
(23:24):
that HOAs can't tell you, I haveno say in whether or not you
have an ADU on your property,that was a real way for
investors to improve whatthey're doing. Then we have
investors like Kristi Cirtwill,right? And she's the ADU girl,
for sure, but buying singlefamily homes, and adding the ADU
and getting investor money andjust, you know, doing the whole
(23:47):
soup to nuts thing like that,and other people too, from from
LA like Deborah Rozo andJennifer Maldonado, who would
buy a lot, tear it down andbuild a Fourplex, you know,
rezone a single family to amulti family, and have forced
appreciation like that. And thatwas a really great play. So I
(24:07):
suppose that's how people aredoing it in Orange County. Of
course, we have the high endinvestors who have houses that
are worth $50 million on theNewport Coast with their own
private beach. But that's noteverybody, is it? You know? So
you'll have, you'll have the oneoffs.
Joey Romero (24:23):
Derek, what's unique about investing in San
Diego?
Derek Harms (24:28):
So I would say a few things. I think
geographically, number one, thefirst thing is interesting. And
I've said this before, but I'llsay it again, right? We have
mountains to the east, CampPendleton to the north, the
ocean to the west, and Mexico tothe south. And almost all of the
desirable buildable land hasbeen built on in San Diego
(24:50):
County that really the onlytracks of land that are large
enough to build subdivisions onare in south, southeast county
or north, northeast county. Solike we're talking a significant
drive away from San Diego Metro,and there are moments being
built out there, for sure, butreally it puts an emphasis and a
(25:13):
premium on the existing stock inSan Diego County. And it's
really good for people who havehouse flipping operations, like
myself, because people stillwill probably, I say that
probably, but I imagine SanDiego will be a place that
people want to live in forever.
I mean, it's, it really is aspecial place to live, and it
isn't called the finest city inthe world for no, sorry,
(25:35):
America's Finest City. Sorry,that's the proper term, right?
It's not called America's FinestCity for for no reason, right?
It really is beautiful. And sowe feel that there will always
be a demand for housing here inSan Diego, we have a lot of
biotech, military andhospitality and healthcare. So a
lot of the main drivers here arestill here, and so we feel that
(26:00):
there will be a demand for SanDiego for a long time. But keep
in mind, San Diego, along withevery market, really, that's
what I love about real estateinvesting. If you're buying,
picking off one property, twoproperties here and there, it's
an imperfect market, and you canalways find a deal if you make
enough offers, if you know howto negotiate, you know the right
(26:22):
people. And it's not like you'regoing on Charles Schwab and
trading a stock, you know, ashare in the video, where it's
going to be the same pricethroughout the country. No, it's
if you know how to work a deal,you can always find something
it's harder to do right now,that's for sure. It we're
seeing, we're seeing a tightermarket right now, and you have
(26:45):
to be razor sharp with yourunderwriting, but it's totally
doable. I mean, we're stillbuying properties every month
and we're comfortable andconfident that they'll always be
able to.
Joey Romero (26:59):
Well, that's what Bill Allen was talking about is
our jobs as investors arefinding inefficiencies in the
market and then knowing yournumbers and how to take
advantage of thoseinefficiencies, right?
Kaaren Hall (27:11):
You remind me of Pete Fortunato. "Why would you
sell a beautiful home likethis?"
Joey Romero (27:15):
Yeah. Alright, everybody that's going to do it
for part one of our InvestorClub Roundup Show. Please stay
tuned next week for part two.
See you then.
Narrator (27:26):
For more information on hard money loans, trust deed
investing, and upcoming eventswith The Norris group. Check out
thenorrisgroup.com. For moreinformation on passive investing
through the DBL Capital RealEstate Investment Fund, please
visit dblapital.com.
Joey Romero (27:45):
The Norris Group originates and services loans in
California and Florida underCalifornia DRE license 01219911.
Florida mortgage lender license1577 and NMLS license 1623669.
For more information on hardmoney lending go to
thenorrisgroup.com and click thehard money tab.
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