It is almost D day in the Anglican Communion.
Today we give the background for two highly significant meetings. One to take place next week in Rome. The second in June in Cairo.
The Rome gathering has been called by the rejected Canterbury leadership. The Cairo gathering has been called by the leadership of the Global South.
As background, The Church of England, the historic mother church of the Anglican Communion, under the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury formally abandoned the historic Christian faith when the English General Synod voted to follow Archbishop Welby and his house of bishops in voting for same sex blessings.
In reaction, the majority theologically orthodox have drawn a line in the sand and parted company with The church of England.
The Global South Churches said in their important Ash Wednesday 23 statement that the Church of England has disqualified herself from leading the Anglican communion.
Gafcon said the Archbishop of Canterbury’s leadership has been irreparably damaged.
We speak with the chair of the Global South Archbishop Justin Badi Arama of South Sudan and the new General Secretary of Gafcon Bishop Paul Donison.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it's the pastor's heart and dominic steel, and
today, a game of high stakesecclesiastical poker in the
anglican communion, and whichbishop has the bigger hand?
It is almost d-day in theanglican communion and today, on
the pastor's hearts, two guests, two leaders of global orthodox
anglican Communion.
And today, on the Pastor'sHeart's, two guests two leaders
of global Orthodox Anglicanism.
(00:28):
From Juba in South Sudan, wespeak with the Chair of the
Global South, archbishop JustinBadi Arama, and from Texas in
the United States, the newGeneral Secretary of GAFCON,
bishop Paul Donison.
Today we're giving backgroundfor two highly significant
meetings.
Today we're giving backgroundfor two highly significant
meetings, one to take place nextweek in Rome, the second in
June in Cairo.
(00:50):
The first, the Rome one nextweek.
It's been called by the old,rejected Canterbury leadership.
The second one, following onfrom last year's big GAFCON
conference in Rwanda, has beencalled by the new leadership of
the Global South as background,the Church of England, the
historic new leadership of theGlobal South as background.
The Church of England, thehistoric mother church of the
Anglican Communion, under theleadership of the Archbishop of
(01:12):
Canterbury, formally abandonedthe historic Christian faith.
The General Synod of theEnglish Church voted to follow
Archbishop Welby and his Houseof Bishops down the way of
apostasy by voting for same-sexblessings.
In reaction, the theologicallyorthodox have drawn a line in
(01:33):
the sand and parted company withthe Church of England.
The Global South churches saidin their important Ash Wednesday
23 statement that the Church ofEngland has disqualified
herself from leading theAnglican Communion.
Now let's go back 12 months agothis week to Gafcon and remind
ourselves of what was said there.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
First a clip from the conference statement and then
reaction from leaders have noconfidence that the Archbishop
of Canterbury nor the otherinstruments of communion led by
(02:14):
him are able to provide a godlyway forward that will be
acceptable to those who arecommitted to the truthfulness,
clarity, sufficiency andauthority of Scripture.
We cannot walk together in gooddisagreement with those who
(02:39):
have deliberately chosen to walkaway from the faith once all
delivered to the saints, as wesee in Jude 3.
Successive archbishops ofCanterbury have failed to guard
the faith by inviting bishops toLambeth who have embraced our
(03:06):
promoted practices contrary toScripture.
This failure of churchdiscipline has been compounded
by the current Archbishop ofCanterbury, who has himself
welcomed the provision ofliturgical resources to bless
(03:32):
these practices contrary to thescripture.
This renders his leadershiprole in the Anglican Communion
entirely indefensible.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Do you finally believe that we're serious?
Because we really are serious,and 80% of the Anglican
Communion is saying this too.
We're serious because this is aFirst Order salvation issue.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We remain the Anglican Communion, remain the
Anglican Communion.
The Archbishop of Canterburyand the Church of England put
themselves in impaired communionwith me, with my province and
with the rest of the Orthodoxprovinces.
We didn't ask him to do this.
(04:20):
He himself entered in thissituation and by doing so, the
Church of England accepted tochoose to be in impaired
communion with the rest of thecommunion.
The statement is unambiguousthe Orthodox global Anglican
(04:41):
Church has spoken and the globalAnglican Church has spoken and
the instruments of communion arebroken and the Archbishop of
Canterbury's role has ended.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think now Lambeth should disappear.
We need a new way of beingtogether.
I think, in my opinion, thefour instruments of unity must
be changed, must be rechaped.
Let me tell you, or explain, alittle bit about that.
(05:11):
For example, the Archbishop ofCanterbury played an important
role for the Church of England,but not today, sadly, for the
Anglican Communion.
According to my understanding,the Archbishop of Canterbury has
(05:32):
six or seven different rolesand one of them, one out of six
or seven, is concerning to theAnglican Communion.
For the reason I would like toseparate.
The Archbishop of Canterburyshould be, or must be, the
primate of all England and thenthe Anglican Communion must have
another head or another primatethat can lead the Anglican
(05:59):
Communion.
And I can understand, you know,his decision in the last
general synod of the Church ofEngland that he approve the
blessing of same-sex people.
You know, because he was withthe heart of the Church of
England but not with the heartof the Anglican community.
(06:21):
You can't wear both those hats.
No, no, we can't Second theprimates.
You know, I was in the primatemeeting of 2016 in Canterbury
and we approved all primates toapply discipline to the
(06:42):
Episcopal Church of the UnitedStates, TEC.
Finally, nothing happened.
Why?
Because the Archbishop ofCanterbury didn't apply
discipline.
He said he had no authoritywith TEC.
And also ACC said we havenothing to do with the
(07:02):
resolution of the primatesmeeting At the end.
The primates meeting is notworking well.
It's not functioning as anauthoritative body in the
Antiguan Communion.
And third, the ACC Same thing.
Acc was organized according tothe mentality of the past.
(07:25):
I think we need a new way toorganise ACC because ACC is
working with the English mind,with the English system, and the
majority of the AnglicanCommunion is not English.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
We are people around the world.
Now we fast forward to todayand we start this episode of the
Pastor's Heart with the newGeneral Secretary of GAFCON,
Paul Donison, on the line fromTexas in the United States.
Paul, these two meetings thatare coming up the main one
called for June by the GlobalSouth, Now that's been on the
calendar for a long time andthat's going to be a highly
(08:04):
significant meeting.
But this other one, called byArchbishop Justin Welby and he
announced this a month or soafter Kigali, and I was
astonished when I heard about itIs it an attempt to play
ecclesiastical poker?
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Well, thanks, dominic .
It's a joy to be with you onthe podcast and just to say that
I can't really speak with muchclarity or knowledge on what
Archbishop Welby is hoping for.
But we should assume, based onall the games that have been
played I think poker is a goodanalogy over the last decade and
(08:43):
longer from Canterbury thatthis is yet another attempt to
obfuscate, to confuse, to get awin for the traditional
revisionist structures, and myprayer is simply that all of the
Bible-loving global primatescan see through that.
(09:04):
Hopefully many will see thatahead of time and not go.
That's always the best of thesemeetings, because even showing
up at these meetings, thechallenge is that you show up
even if you get offended andleave early.
You'll be checked asaffirmative and you could find
yourself being used your justbasic presence being used as
(09:24):
affirming Canterbury's agenda.
But I do hope that folks cansee through it.
I hope there's clarity.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And that has happened time and time again Absolutely,
and we saw it actuallyspectacularly with the 2022
Lambeth Conference.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
When you saw, after Lambeth 22, the shock and the
sadness by so many goodBible-believing bishops who
showed up in good faith, inearnest, listening to the
official stance that came out ofCanterbury, out of the
communion office, saying come,let's have an honest
conversation.
And when they arrived theyrealized that it was a highly
(10:02):
curated, carefully put togethermonologue.
Really it wasn't really aconversation at all.
There was already apredetermined outcome and you
saw the great sadness andoffense.
And this Dominic, as we bothknow, is what happens again and
again is that Again, orthodoxBible-believing folks will show
(10:23):
up at meetings in earnest saying, well, of course, I want to be
part of the solution, I don'twant to be part of the problem
and I'm willing to show up andhave a hard meeting and have
some vigorous fellowship, aswe'd say.
And they'll go in with thatsort of hope that everyone comes
with the same perspective.
We're all Christians here,right, we're all going to listen
for the Spirit's voice andunfortunately end up often
(10:46):
walking into these kind ofmeetings and get used.
Simply by being present, theyget their name checked off and
then all of a sudden they'rebeing used towards an already
predetermined outcome for thesemeetings.
So it's just one of thesethings.
I'm praying that there'sclarity even this next week for
anyone who's planning onattending.
Perhaps they'd change theirmind and, if they do go, that
(11:09):
they will speak with clarity andmake sure that their presence
is not used by the communitystructure for even more
confusion within the world.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
What I might do now, paul, is put you on hold for a
moment and we will go to thechair of the Global South,
archbishop Justin Baddiorama, inSouth Sudan.
He is the convener of thatsecond big meeting of Orthodox
Anglicans, going to meet inCairo in June.
Archbishop Justin, thank youfor joining us.
(11:42):
What is your take on this moveby the Archbishop of Canterbury
to call this meeting in Romenext week?
Speaker 6 (11:50):
Thank you and greetings to you from Juba,
south Sudan.
We have heard about the meetingand we have received invitation
to go to Rome.
We have received invitation togo to Rome but, in accordance
with the Ashwines, the statementthat we issued, some of us may
(12:12):
not be able to be part of thatmeeting in Rome, but otherwise
we pray for our brothers whowill be going there and we pray
for my dear brother, archbishopJustin Welby, who will be chair
there, and we pray for my dearbrother, archbishop Justin Welby
, who will be chairing themeeting.
That the Holy Spirit will guidethem well and will remind them
(12:34):
about the importance ofupholding the biblical truth
within the Anglican Communion.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Archbishop Badiarama, I'm actually surprised that
anybody Orthodox would go tothis meeting in Rome.
But you are understanding.
Some primates who arebiblically faithful are actually
planning to go.
Is that your understanding?
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Yes, that could be right, because there are all
kinds of tricks being done toinfluence people to go and
attend the meeting.
So those who take it lightlymay go and attend the meeting,
but those who understand whatthe truth is may not be part of
(13:24):
that meeting.
Because, as Global South, wedid say we cannot sit together
with those who haveintentionally violated the
biblical truth that we receivedfrom our forefathers.
We cannot go and share anythingwith them unless they repent.
(13:45):
But we are seeing there is nosign of repentance.
What we are hearing, just let'sbe together, continue to be
together in unity as we continuesinning, but we are saying no,
we cannot continue.
But we are saying no, we cannotcontinue in sin and being
together.
So those who take it lightlymay go, but most of us in the
(14:12):
global south may not be part ofthat meeting.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
And you say all sorts of tricks and inducements have
been offered to go.
What kind of things are youhearing?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
We have been hearing about two or three things, of
which one of it is that let'sall come.
The chair might be a differentperson, but we should come.
Then our response is that ourconcern is not about who chairs
the meeting.
(14:45):
Our concern is about those whohave intentionally violated the
orthodox biblical teaching.
We cannot sit and discuss withthem.
That has been our concern, andthat's one thing.
And that's one thing.
And then the other thing isactually resources also is part
(15:07):
of luring some people to go.
That is another means.
So those are the kind ofstories which we are hearing.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And these people are actually offering resources to
churches if the primate doesattend this gathering.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Those are the kind of rumors we are hearing.
Yes, and also saying if we areall there, somebody else may
chair the meeting.
But those who violated, thosewho are continuing in sin, will
be part of the meeting.
How can we be together withthem?
That is our argument.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Now the more important meeting is the one in
six weeks time that you'll bechairing and you're going to be
attempting to bring OrthodoxAnglican leaders representing
85% of the Anglican communiontogether in Cairo.
And now we were told in Kigalilast year that although the in
principle decision had been madeto reset the Anglican Communion
(16:10):
, the actual hard work, thedetail, would be worked on and
brought to this meeting in sixweeks time.
How are you going on the hardwork, the detail for this
meeting?
Speaker 6 (16:22):
Yes, in six weeks' time all the Anglican Orthodox
will be gathering in Cairo andwe have set objectives for that
gathering, which are actuallythree main objectives.
One is for prayers praying forour beloved communion and
(16:46):
praying for ourselves.
And the second objective willbe to mobilize and encourage
ourselves to take the gospel outinto the world.
That is our main objective.
We will not waste time intalking, but we are preparing to
(17:07):
move out with the authenticgospel message to the needy
world.
And, of course, the thirdobjective is to elect new
leaders who will take thefellowship of Orthodox Anglicans
forward.
Those are the three mainobjectives and together we'll
(17:27):
see how do we go about resettingour Anglican communion, of
which we all agree together thatthe covenantal structure is the
main tool for resetting thecommunion.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Now, if I could just come back to preaching the
gospel, what are the kinds ofinitiatives that you're looking
to take in Global South toevangelize the world that you
were talking about a moment?
Speaker 6 (17:59):
ago.
One way is actually to equipthe leaders.
So the current leaders, we movearound the world, we encourage
them, we equip them.
And then the second move willbe seeking authentic gospel
(18:21):
preachers and teachers, movingthem around the world to
continue to remind, to encourageand to teach the biblical truth
.
Come out with some curriculumand revised curriculum that will
(18:50):
be taught in our seminaries toprepare new leaders for the
future leadership in the church.
And we will also look at thecatechism.
What is it that we will give tothe new converts to strengthen
them, to teach them and toprepare them about their faith?
(19:12):
So there are many other thingsthat we will actually strategize
, mobilize and prepare ourselvesto take it out into the world
and we are ready for that.
And on top of it is praying andsupporting each other in all
(19:35):
the challenges that we face inthe ministry.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Archbishop Justin Badiarama, thanks for speaking
with us.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
Thank you, my dear brother, for this moment of
togetherness and I'm glad andwhat I may say is that it is a
high time in the history of thechurch that we take that same
spirit which was there in the18th century, the spirit of
(20:07):
revival, of moving out with theauthentic gospel message, as our
forefathers did.
So it is our time, especiallythis generation, to come out, to
step out and to stand strongwith the gospel message.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That is Archbishop Justin Badiorama, and on the
line from Juba in South Sudan heis the chair of the Global
South Fellowship of Churches,and listening to that
conversation, on the line fromTexas in the United States, is
the new General Secretary ofGAFCON, paul Donison.
And Paul, you will be part ofthose conversations in Cairo as
(20:48):
an observer representing GAFCON,but also I'm imagining you'll
be saying some things there.
What are you hoping will comeout of those meetings in Cairo?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Well, it's a joy to be there as an observer and I'm
so thankful for the invite.
As the new General Secretary ofGAFCON, a big part of my role
right now is buildingrelationships.
I'm still very new in my role,so this will be a wonderful
opportunity to meet some peopleI've never met before.
But my hope for the meeting isthat we will see in Cairo what
(21:21):
always should happen when thecouncils of the church meet
faithfully, listening to theLord standing under scripture,
listening to what the Spirit issaying to the church, that we
will see the mission moveforward.
You know, and I think that partof what GSFA's particular
charism has been and isintending to be, as we've stated
(21:41):
in the Kigali commitment, isthat they're building biblical
doctrinal structures for thereset of the Anglican communion,
and so I'm just so fascinatedto see what that looks like and
I've read the Cairo Covenant,I've talked to others about it.
It'll be wonderful to see thatassembly in action and see what
(22:02):
the Lord does with it that arealtogether fully Orthodox and in
places where you've got arevisionist region within the
(22:25):
Anglican communion, where we canthen start helping identify
leaders and bishops and, aswe've done in the past, actually
raise up new dioceses, newprovinces, recognize the
faithful where they are.
So we continue to do that workin GAFCON, and so it'd be
wonderful to see how these twocharisms continue to work side
(22:46):
by side and in partnership,because, again, you know,
dominic, the overlap betweenGAFCON and GSFA as far as
membership is enormous.
I mean, it's a tremendousoverlap.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So it'd be wonderful to see in Cairo what that looks
like, and we heard from JustinBadiarama about plans for the
Global South.
What's next for GAFCON?
I know you're pretty new in thejob, but already I'm getting
the sense that things areratcheting up in these last few
months, and it's been excitingto watch that from a distance.
What are you up to?
Speaker 5 (23:17):
We've got, obviously, this year already, some early
exciting events that have takenplace.
We had our seventh BishopsTraining Institute in Kigali
back in February, which gatheredtogether I think it was 15
bishops and 15 of their wives,along with another whole faculty
(23:38):
from all over the world, and soI think we had something like
14 different nations representedand all together over the days,
together building a sense ofwhat does it mean to be Orthodox
bishops today, faithful bishopstoday.
That was a big win and veryexciting.
We have our eighth coming upnow in October.
(23:59):
Bti 8 will be again in Kigaliin October.
We're so thankful for theleadership of people like Bishop
Henry Orombe, who's our BTIdirector, the retired Bishop of
Uganda so wonderful facultyopinion.
We've got some new conferenceswe're going to be forming, we're
expanding our secretariat team,our staff.
(24:21):
Those are just a few of thethings, but I'm very excited
about the opportunities and I dofeel like we've been ratcheting
it up, by God.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And just a month after that big conference in
June in Cairo, you're coming toAustralia for the Australian
GAFCON conference.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
That's right.
I'm so looking forward tocoming to the Australasia GAFCON
conference in early July andthat'll be my first time in that
part of the world.
I'm sure not my last time,first of many trips.
So it'd be great to meetleaders, to build on those
relationships.
And really I'm excited aboutthese moments because, again,
(24:58):
like I said the same thing aboutthe gathering in Cairo Every
time we can get together, youknow a control verse for me, for
most of my Christian life, hasbeen Hebrews 10, 24 and 25.
You know it says do not ceasemeeting together, as has become
the habit of some, but stir upone another to love and good
works, especially as you see,the day approach, the day
(25:19):
approach.
And for me, just that work ofshowing up and being together,
fellowshipping together, prayingtogether, reading the Bible
together, listening to the Lordtogether, just frankly, building
good friendships in the gospeltogether, is exciting.
And I think this is how missionworks.
It's always been how it works.
And I think, as we go forward,whether we're talking about the
(25:42):
work in GSFA, whether we'retalking about the work in GAFCON
, whatever work we're doing,it's got to be based on
fellowshipping together,koinonia, partnership, building
those relationships.
So I'm really looking forwardto that meeting in Australia.
That's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Paul, thank you very much for speaking to us.
Thanks, Dominic, and we willwatch this with interest.
That is Bishop Paul Donison.
He is the General Secretary ofthe GAFCON movement within World
Anglicanism and also in thisepisode we've been speaking with
Justin Badiarama.
He is the Archbishop of SouthSudan and the Chair of the
Global South Movement within theAnglican Communion.
(26:20):
My name is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the Pastor's Heart.
it's the pastor's heart and dominic steel, and
today, a game of high stakesecclesiastical poker in the
anglican communion, and whichbishop has the bigger hand?
It is almost d-day in theanglican communion and today, on
the pastor's hearts, two guests, two leaders of global orthodox
anglican Communion.
And today, on the Pastor'sHeart's, two guests two leaders
of global Orthodox Anglicanism.
(00:28):
From Juba in South Sudan, wespeak with the Chair of the
Global South, archbishop JustinBadi Arama, and from Texas in
the United States, the newGeneral Secretary of GAFCON,
bishop Paul Donison.
Today we're giving backgroundfor two highly significant
meetings.
Today we're giving backgroundfor two highly significant
meetings, one to take place nextweek in Rome, the second in
June in Cairo.
(00:50):
The first, the Rome one nextweek.
It's been called by the old,rejected Canterbury leadership.
The second one, following onfrom last year's big GAFCON
conference in Rwanda, has beencalled by the new leadership of
the Global South as background,the Church of England, the
historic new leadership of theGlobal South as background.
The Church of England, thehistoric mother church of the
Anglican Communion, under theleadership of the Archbishop of
(01:12):
Canterbury, formally abandonedthe historic Christian faith.
The General Synod of theEnglish Church voted to follow
Archbishop Welby and his Houseof Bishops down the way of
apostasy by voting for same-sexblessings.
In reaction, the theologicallyorthodox have drawn a line in
(01:33):
the sand and parted company withthe Church of England.
The Global South churches saidin their important Ash Wednesday
23 statement that the Church ofEngland has disqualified
herself from leading theAnglican Communion.
Now let's go back 12 months agothis week to Gafcon and remind
ourselves of what was said there.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
First a clip from the conference statement and then
reaction from leaders have noconfidence that the Archbishop
of Canterbury nor the otherinstruments of communion led by
(02:14):
him are able to provide a godlyway forward that will be
acceptable to those who arecommitted to the truthfulness,
clarity, sufficiency andauthority of Scripture.
We cannot walk together in gooddisagreement with those who
(02:39):
have deliberately chosen to walkaway from the faith once all
delivered to the saints, as wesee in Jude 3.
Successive archbishops ofCanterbury have failed to guard
the faith by inviting bishops toLambeth who have embraced our
(03:06):
promoted practices contrary toScripture.
This failure of churchdiscipline has been compounded
by the current Archbishop ofCanterbury, who has himself
welcomed the provision ofliturgical resources to bless
(03:32):
these practices contrary to thescripture.
This renders his leadershiprole in the Anglican Communion
entirely indefensible.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Do you finally believe that we're serious?
Because we really are serious,and 80% of the Anglican
Communion is saying this too.
We're serious because this is aFirst Order salvation issue.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
We remain the Anglican Communion, remain the
Anglican Communion.
The Archbishop of Canterburyand the Church of England put
themselves in impaired communionwith me, with my province and
with the rest of the Orthodoxprovinces.
We didn't ask him to do this.
(04:20):
He himself entered in thissituation and by doing so, the
Church of England accepted tochoose to be in impaired
communion with the rest of thecommunion.
The statement is unambiguousthe Orthodox global Anglican
(04:41):
Church has spoken and the globalAnglican Church has spoken and
the instruments of communion arebroken and the Archbishop of
Canterbury's role has ended.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think now Lambeth should disappear.
We need a new way of beingtogether.
I think, in my opinion, thefour instruments of unity must
be changed, must be rechaped.
Let me tell you, or explain, alittle bit about that.
(05:11):
For example, the Archbishop ofCanterbury played an important
role for the Church of England,but not today, sadly, for the
Anglican Communion.
According to my understanding,the Archbishop of Canterbury has
(05:32):
six or seven different rolesand one of them, one out of six
or seven, is concerning to theAnglican Communion.
For the reason I would like toseparate.
The Archbishop of Canterburyshould be, or must be, the
primate of all England and thenthe Anglican Communion must have
another head or another primatethat can lead the Anglican
(05:59):
Communion.
And I can understand, you know,his decision in the last
general synod of the Church ofEngland that he approve the
blessing of same-sex people.
You know, because he was withthe heart of the Church of
England but not with the heartof the Anglican community.
(06:21):
You can't wear both those hats.
No, no, we can't Second theprimates.
You know, I was in the primatemeeting of 2016 in Canterbury
and we approved all primates toapply discipline to the
(06:42):
Episcopal Church of the UnitedStates, TEC.
Finally, nothing happened.
Why?
Because the Archbishop ofCanterbury didn't apply
discipline.
He said he had no authoritywith TEC.
And also ACC said we havenothing to do with the
(07:02):
resolution of the primatesmeeting At the end.
The primates meeting is notworking well.
It's not functioning as anauthoritative body in the
Antiguan Communion.
And third, the ACC Same thing.
Acc was organized according tothe mentality of the past.
(07:25):
I think we need a new way toorganise ACC because ACC is
working with the English mind,with the English system, and the
majority of the AnglicanCommunion is not English.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
We are people around the world.
Now we fast forward to todayand we start this episode of the
Pastor's Heart with the newGeneral Secretary of GAFCON,
Paul Donison, on the line fromTexas in the United States.
Paul, these two meetings thatare coming up the main one
called for June by the GlobalSouth, Now that's been on the
calendar for a long time andthat's going to be a highly
(08:04):
significant meeting.
But this other one, called byArchbishop Justin Welby and he
announced this a month or soafter Kigali, and I was
astonished when I heard about itIs it an attempt to play
ecclesiastical poker?
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Well, thanks, dominic .
It's a joy to be with you onthe podcast and just to say that
I can't really speak with muchclarity or knowledge on what
Archbishop Welby is hoping for.
But we should assume, based onall the games that have been
played I think poker is a goodanalogy over the last decade and
(08:43):
longer from Canterbury thatthis is yet another attempt to
obfuscate, to confuse, to get awin for the traditional
revisionist structures, and myprayer is simply that all of the
Bible-loving global primatescan see through that.
(09:04):
Hopefully many will see thatahead of time and not go.
That's always the best of thesemeetings, because even showing
up at these meetings, thechallenge is that you show up
even if you get offended andleave early.
You'll be checked asaffirmative and you could find
yourself being used your justbasic presence being used as
(09:24):
affirming Canterbury's agenda.
But I do hope that folks cansee through it.
I hope there's clarity.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And that has happened time and time again Absolutely,
and we saw it actuallyspectacularly with the 2022
Lambeth Conference.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
When you saw, after Lambeth 22, the shock and the
sadness by so many goodBible-believing bishops who
showed up in good faith, inearnest, listening to the
official stance that came out ofCanterbury, out of the
communion office, saying come,let's have an honest
conversation.
And when they arrived theyrealized that it was a highly
(10:02):
curated, carefully put togethermonologue.
Really it wasn't really aconversation at all.
There was already apredetermined outcome and you
saw the great sadness andoffense.
And this Dominic, as we bothknow, is what happens again and
again is that Again, orthodoxBible-believing folks will show
(10:23):
up at meetings in earnest saying, well, of course, I want to be
part of the solution, I don'twant to be part of the problem
and I'm willing to show up andhave a hard meeting and have
some vigorous fellowship, aswe'd say.
And they'll go in with thatsort of hope that everyone comes
with the same perspective.
We're all Christians here,right, we're all going to listen
for the Spirit's voice andunfortunately end up often
(10:46):
walking into these kind ofmeetings and get used.
Simply by being present, theyget their name checked off and
then all of a sudden they'rebeing used towards an already
predetermined outcome for thesemeetings.
So it's just one of thesethings.
I'm praying that there'sclarity even this next week for
anyone who's planning onattending.
Perhaps they'd change theirmind and, if they do go, that
(11:09):
they will speak with clarity andmake sure that their presence
is not used by the communitystructure for even more
confusion within the world.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
What I might do now, paul, is put you on hold for a
moment and we will go to thechair of the Global South,
archbishop Justin Baddiorama, inSouth Sudan.
He is the convener of thatsecond big meeting of Orthodox
Anglicans, going to meet inCairo in June.
Archbishop Justin, thank youfor joining us.
(11:42):
What is your take on this moveby the Archbishop of Canterbury
to call this meeting in Romenext week?
Speaker 6 (11:50):
Thank you and greetings to you from Juba,
south Sudan.
We have heard about the meetingand we have received invitation
to go to Rome.
We have received invitation togo to Rome but, in accordance
with the Ashwines, the statementthat we issued, some of us may
(12:12):
not be able to be part of thatmeeting in Rome, but otherwise
we pray for our brothers whowill be going there and we pray
for my dear brother, archbishopJustin Welby, who will be chair
there, and we pray for my dearbrother, archbishop Justin Welby
, who will be chairing themeeting.
That the Holy Spirit will guidethem well and will remind them
(12:34):
about the importance ofupholding the biblical truth
within the Anglican Communion.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Archbishop Badiarama, I'm actually surprised that
anybody Orthodox would go tothis meeting in Rome.
But you are understanding.
Some primates who arebiblically faithful are actually
planning to go.
Is that your understanding?
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Yes, that could be right, because there are all
kinds of tricks being done toinfluence people to go and
attend the meeting.
So those who take it lightlymay go and attend the meeting,
but those who understand whatthe truth is may not be part of
(13:24):
that meeting.
Because, as Global South, wedid say we cannot sit together
with those who haveintentionally violated the
biblical truth that we receivedfrom our forefathers.
We cannot go and share anythingwith them unless they repent.
(13:45):
But we are seeing there is nosign of repentance.
What we are hearing, just let'sbe together, continue to be
together in unity as we continuesinning, but we are saying no,
we cannot continue.
But we are saying no, we cannotcontinue in sin and being
together.
So those who take it lightlymay go, but most of us in the
(14:12):
global south may not be part ofthat meeting.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
And you say all sorts of tricks and inducements have
been offered to go.
What kind of things are youhearing?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
We have been hearing about two or three things, of
which one of it is that let'sall come.
The chair might be a differentperson, but we should come.
Then our response is that ourconcern is not about who chairs
the meeting.
(14:45):
Our concern is about those whohave intentionally violated the
orthodox biblical teaching.
We cannot sit and discuss withthem.
That has been our concern, andthat's one thing.
And that's one thing.
And then the other thing isactually resources also is part
(15:07):
of luring some people to go.
That is another means.
So those are the kind ofstories which we are hearing.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And these people are actually offering resources to
churches if the primate doesattend this gathering.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Those are the kind of rumors we are hearing.
Yes, and also saying if we areall there, somebody else may
chair the meeting.
But those who violated, thosewho are continuing in sin, will
be part of the meeting.
How can we be together withthem?
That is our argument.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Now the more important meeting is the one in
six weeks time that you'll bechairing and you're going to be
attempting to bring OrthodoxAnglican leaders representing
85% of the Anglican communiontogether in Cairo.
And now we were told in Kigalilast year that although the in
principle decision had been madeto reset the Anglican Communion
(16:10):
, the actual hard work, thedetail, would be worked on and
brought to this meeting in sixweeks time.
How are you going on the hardwork, the detail for this
meeting?
Speaker 6 (16:22):
Yes, in six weeks' time all the Anglican Orthodox
will be gathering in Cairo andwe have set objectives for that
gathering, which are actuallythree main objectives.
One is for prayers praying forour beloved communion and
(16:46):
praying for ourselves.
And the second objective willbe to mobilize and encourage
ourselves to take the gospel outinto the world.
That is our main objective.
We will not waste time intalking, but we are preparing to
(17:07):
move out with the authenticgospel message to the needy
world.
And, of course, the thirdobjective is to elect new
leaders who will take thefellowship of Orthodox Anglicans
forward.
Those are the three mainobjectives and together we'll
(17:27):
see how do we go about resettingour Anglican communion, of
which we all agree together thatthe covenantal structure is the
main tool for resetting thecommunion.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Now, if I could just come back to preaching the
gospel, what are the kinds ofinitiatives that you're looking
to take in Global South toevangelize the world that you
were talking about a moment?
Speaker 6 (17:59):
ago.
One way is actually to equipthe leaders.
So the current leaders, we movearound the world, we encourage
them, we equip them.
And then the second move willbe seeking authentic gospel
(18:21):
preachers and teachers, movingthem around the world to
continue to remind, to encourageand to teach the biblical truth
.
Come out with some curriculumand revised curriculum that will
(18:50):
be taught in our seminaries toprepare new leaders for the
future leadership in the church.
And we will also look at thecatechism.
What is it that we will give tothe new converts to strengthen
them, to teach them and toprepare them about their faith?
(19:12):
So there are many other thingsthat we will actually strategize
, mobilize and prepare ourselvesto take it out into the world
and we are ready for that.
And on top of it is praying andsupporting each other in all
(19:35):
the challenges that we face inthe ministry.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Archbishop Justin Badiarama, thanks for speaking
with us.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
Thank you, my dear brother, for this moment of
togetherness and I'm glad andwhat I may say is that it is a
high time in the history of thechurch that we take that same
spirit which was there in the18th century, the spirit of
(20:07):
revival, of moving out with theauthentic gospel message, as our
forefathers did.
So it is our time, especiallythis generation, to come out, to
step out and to stand strongwith the gospel message.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That is Archbishop Justin Badiorama, and on the
line from Juba in South Sudan heis the chair of the Global
South Fellowship of Churches,and listening to that
conversation, on the line fromTexas in the United States, is
the new General Secretary ofGAFCON, paul Donison.
And Paul, you will be part ofthose conversations in Cairo as
(20:48):
an observer representing GAFCON,but also I'm imagining you'll
be saying some things there.
What are you hoping will comeout of those meetings in Cairo?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Well, it's a joy to be there as an observer and I'm
so thankful for the invite.
As the new General Secretary ofGAFCON, a big part of my role
right now is buildingrelationships.
I'm still very new in my role,so this will be a wonderful
opportunity to meet some peopleI've never met before.
But my hope for the meeting isthat we will see in Cairo what
(21:21):
always should happen when thecouncils of the church meet
faithfully, listening to theLord standing under scripture,
listening to what the Spirit issaying to the church, that we
will see the mission moveforward.
You know, and I think that partof what GSFA's particular
charism has been and isintending to be, as we've stated
(21:41):
in the Kigali commitment, isthat they're building biblical
doctrinal structures for thereset of the Anglican communion,
and so I'm just so fascinatedto see what that looks like and
I've read the Cairo Covenant,I've talked to others about it.
It'll be wonderful to see thatassembly in action and see what
(22:02):
the Lord does with it that arealtogether fully Orthodox and in
places where you've got arevisionist region within the
(22:25):
Anglican communion, where we canthen start helping identify
leaders and bishops and, aswe've done in the past, actually
raise up new dioceses, newprovinces, recognize the
faithful where they are.
So we continue to do that workin GAFCON, and so it'd be
wonderful to see how these twocharisms continue to work side
(22:46):
by side and in partnership,because, again, you know,
dominic, the overlap betweenGAFCON and GSFA as far as
membership is enormous.
I mean, it's a tremendousoverlap.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So it'd be wonderful to see in Cairo what that looks
like, and we heard from JustinBadiarama about plans for the
Global South.
What's next for GAFCON?
I know you're pretty new in thejob, but already I'm getting
the sense that things areratcheting up in these last few
months, and it's been excitingto watch that from a distance.
What are you up to?
Speaker 5 (23:17):
We've got, obviously, this year already, some early
exciting events that have takenplace.
We had our seventh BishopsTraining Institute in Kigali
back in February, which gatheredtogether I think it was 15
bishops and 15 of their wives,along with another whole faculty
(23:38):
from all over the world, and soI think we had something like
14 different nations representedand all together over the days,
together building a sense ofwhat does it mean to be Orthodox
bishops today, faithful bishopstoday.
That was a big win and veryexciting.
We have our eighth coming upnow in October.
(23:59):
Bti 8 will be again in Kigaliin October.
We're so thankful for theleadership of people like Bishop
Henry Orombe, who's our BTIdirector, the retired Bishop of
Uganda so wonderful facultyopinion.
We've got some new conferenceswe're going to be forming, we're
expanding our secretariat team,our staff.
(24:21):
Those are just a few of thethings, but I'm very excited
about the opportunities and I dofeel like we've been ratcheting
it up, by God.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And just a month after that big conference in
June in Cairo, you're coming toAustralia for the Australian
GAFCON conference.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
That's right.
I'm so looking forward tocoming to the Australasia GAFCON
conference in early July andthat'll be my first time in that
part of the world.
I'm sure not my last time,first of many trips.
So it'd be great to meetleaders, to build on those
relationships.
And really I'm excited aboutthese moments because, again,
(24:58):
like I said the same thing aboutthe gathering in Cairo Every
time we can get together, youknow a control verse for me, for
most of my Christian life, hasbeen Hebrews 10, 24 and 25.
You know it says do not ceasemeeting together, as has become
the habit of some, but stir upone another to love and good
works, especially as you see,the day approach, the day
(25:19):
approach.
And for me, just that work ofshowing up and being together,
fellowshipping together, prayingtogether, reading the Bible
together, listening to the Lordtogether, just frankly, building
good friendships in the gospeltogether, is exciting.
And I think this is how missionworks.
It's always been how it works.
And I think, as we go forward,whether we're talking about the
(25:42):
work in GSFA, whether we'retalking about the work in GAFCON
, whatever work we're doing,it's got to be based on
fellowshipping together,koinonia, partnership, building
those relationships.
So I'm really looking forwardto that meeting in Australia.
That's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Paul, thank you very much for speaking to us.
Thanks, Dominic, and we willwatch this with interest.
That is Bishop Paul Donison.
He is the General Secretary ofthe GAFCON movement within World
Anglicanism and also in thisepisode we've been speaking with
Justin Badiarama.
He is the Archbishop of SouthSudan and the Chair of the
Global South Movement within theAnglican Communion.
(26:20):
My name is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the Pastor's Heart.
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