A new goal to see 5% of average service attendance saved - with Pete Stedman, Jon Kwan, and Jo Gibbs
September 2, 2025 • 37 mins
After a significant debate over two days, the Sydney Anglican Synod has voted unanimously to embark on a bold new five-year mission focus, praying and working towards five percent growth in church attendance through the conversion of the lost, each year.
The resolution, “in a spirit of humble dependence and pastoral flexibility,” invited every part of the diocesan fellowship to commit to the goal.
Pete Stedman, Senior Minister of Norwest Anglican, spoke of a turning point for his own parish after a review.
“We realised we had drifted from what matters most. We were measuring busyness, not fruit. We were celebrating activity, but not conversion. That day, God convicted us. We repented, and we asked him to change our hearts.”
“This is about humble dependence. It is about acknowledging that we cannot change a single heart. Only God can. But in his kindness, he calls us to pray, to preach, and to persevere.”
Read the full report
This episode (from before the synod debate) will help with your staff team and to stimulate thinking about how you might best get across this issue.
Our guests are Pete Stedman, senior minister at Norwest Anglican Church, and a member of the Archbishop’s subcommittee that proposed the 5% goal, Jon Kwan, lead pastor at St. David's Forestville and Jo Gibbs, senior consultant with Reach Australia.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
a bounce back in attendance and an initiative to
significantly increase thenumber of people saved.
Pete stedman, john kwan and joegibbs are my guests.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
It was 12 months ago that thenews came out hard, hard news to
hear about a big attendancedrop in Sydney Anglican churches
Over the decade 2013 to 2023,attendance was down 7%, or 14%,
(00:36):
against population growth.
Last year, at the SydneyAnglican Synod, there was a
resolution calling forconfession and humble repentance
where we've fallen short in notgiving sufficient priority,
attention, reflection andresources to seeing the lost
throughout the diocese saved byJesus, and there was a call for
(01:00):
a special five-year focus torespond to our attendance
decline making prayer,evangelism, church' time.
There's a response.
The Standing Committee of theSydney Church appointed a
subcommittee led by theArchbishop and they have come up
(01:20):
with a range of actions to beimplemented.
And they have come up with arange of actions to be
implemented and a proposal of agalvanising target pursuing a 5%
growth goal through conversiongrowth each year for the next
five years.
Our guest today on the Pastor'sHeart Pete Stedman.
He was on the subcommittee thathas proposed this goal.
He's Senior Minister of NorwestAnglican Church.
(01:43):
John Kwan, lead Pastor ofForestville on the northern
beaches of Sydney, and Joe Gibbs, senior Consultant from the
Reach Australia Network anddisclosure.
I also served with Peter onthat subcommittee.
Pete Stedman, let's start withyou and your pastor's heart and
look after a super confrontingreport last year.
(02:03):
Great news to see evangelicalchurch attendance in Sydney
bouncing back.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, it's fabulous, isn't it?
And I loved that the Synodrepented, reflected and prayed.
I mean, what a lovely posture,the right posture, the only
posture to take before our Godand to do the hard work of
asking questions about whatwe're doing, how we're going,
and we'll get to this.
But that's what we want to keepdoing as a diocese, certainly
what I want to keep doing as apastor.
(02:30):
Yeah, really encouraging thepeople coming back.
I'm not sure if the COVID bounceback has just taken a bit
longer.
I'm not sure if the you know,the sniffle effect is sort of
losing its sting.
You know people got a sniffleand then wouldn't come to church
for a month because they wereterrified of getting people
infected.
But maybe people are more happyto go out now.
But we're seeing new familiesand even on the weekend I spoke
(02:52):
to a new family.
They've been back six weeks butthey were at Norwest four years
ago and they're saying it'sjust taken us out of the rhythm
through COVID and are saying wenow want to get back into it.
So it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
We'll put the graph up on the screen and you can see
here that 4.3% whatever it isbounced back in the last 12
months and it does mean thatwhereas last year we were
talking about a 7% drop over 10years, we're now talking about a
(03:24):
3% drop.
Now, john Kwan, regionalbreakdown You're on the North
Shore.
Northern beaches Northernbeaches, yeah, of Sydney, but we
were looking at statistics andwe can put them up here.
Where the North was reallystruggling, you know, down 14%,
(03:45):
but actually in your areathere's been a rise.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, it's really encouraging.
It's actually a wonderful joy.
One of the things that I'vereally enjoyed over the last
couple of years in particular isus, as the Northern Beaches
region of the Anglican churches,working together, and so we had
a prayer and praise nighttogether as all our churches,
and then we did a Hope for theBeaches youth event, and at that
(04:09):
youth event we had I think itwas over 500 youth and over a
hundred of them put their trustin the Lord Jesus and that was
just an awesome moment.
And so there is somethinghappening that we're starting to
see in our part of Sydney,which is really encouraging.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I mean just still looking on that graph.
There's some super encouragingnews about South Sydney, with an
11% growth and a bit of abounce back as well in
Wollongong.
But, Jo Gibbs, I feel worriedabout that drop in Western
Sydney, particularly when youtake into account the crazy
population explosion in thatGreenfields area.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Yeah, and as you pointed out before, this is
still a decline of 3%, butagainst population growth.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You think what's going on there?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so areas that are seeinglarge population growth, we
should be seeing bigger growthnumbers, just to be tracking
with population growth but we'renot seeing those yet.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, and so there's clearly some scratching of heads
that needs to happen amongstthe Western Sydney leadership.
There there's also been goingon.
We're talking in the UK about aquiet revival, and I was
discussing this on the phonewith you, john, and you're
seeing some evidence of wellteenagers and young adults,
(05:30):
where something different seemsto be going on in the soil.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, we've had the wonderful privilege and history
of having quite a healthyevangelistic youth group for
many, many years before I evengot to St David's in Forestville
.
But over the last couple ofyears we've seen something
different happen, where they'regoing to youth and going I want
to know more about Jesus.
And then they're coming tochurch without their parents.
You're seven, you're eight,you're nine kids coming to
(05:54):
church and then they're comingto Christ.
We have this beautiful story ofone young teenager.
She came to our camp in themiddle at the beginning of the
year still trying to work outJesus been coming to youth and
then comes to church and thentells her growth group leader
halfway through this year Ithink it was just because I was
just keep coming to all thesethings that I want to trust
Jesus now, and isn't thatawesome.
(06:16):
So there's that.
But then also we're seeing a lotof young men who have no kind
of church background at all,just finding friends who are
Christian in our church, goinghey, can I come to church with
you?
I want to know what's going on.
And they're seeing things onReels or TikTok or Instagram or
something that's getting them tothink and I've been reflecting,
(06:36):
just wondering what issomething in our culture is
getting particularly young adultmen going.
There's something about Jesusthat I've got to work out, and
so that's really exciting for me.
It's my heart.
I love sharing the good news ofJesus with people and seeing
them turn to Christ.
The evangelist in me loves that, and so I love that they've got
all these people who don't yetknow Jesus coming to church
(06:59):
going.
I'm going to keep coming back.
I want to hear more.
I want to know why these peoplelove this person, jesus.
What is it about him?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, so it's really exciting and my sense is.
I mean I think it was perhapslate last year that I first
started to think young men andsomething special about young
men, but the number of peoplewho've told me that story since
then and actually what we'veseen in our context, I mean you
said it's not quite aspronounced where you are, pete.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
No, I don't think it is.
I was just sitting herethinking, oh, I don't want to
ruin the episode, but I justwonder if there's regional
differences or things like that.
But in the hills we're notquite seeing that and, as I've
spoken to my mission pastor,we're still seeing a number of
women coming through and plentyof guys as well.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
We're still seeing a number of women coming through
and plenty of guys as well, butnot that elevated piece that
John's speaking to, whereas Ithink every course we've run
this year there have been moremen than women, and that's not
been our experience for 20 years.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Do you know, jo, I was going to say Life Anglican
at Quakers Hill are seeingsomething very similar as well.
So, yeah, seeing young men comeand just kind of out of the
blue and a little bit sceptical.
So I was talking to JamesBarnett at Life Anglican and he
said I was thinking this guy'shaving me on.
You know he's not reallyserious.
And no, no, really seriousabout wanting to know about
Jesus and making decisions, soreally exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, I mean, I interviewed a guy on Sunday
night after church.
We're just recording a littlebit for our Term 4 vision season
and as he was telling me hisstory of coming to Christ, you
know he's exactly the personthat you're describing there,
John.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But praise God, whether it's men, women, young,
old.
It's awesome, like I thinkwe're seeing it as well.
We're seeing people from allages wanting to investigate
Jesus, so from the young adultsall the way up to seniors, which
is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
But bottom line there feels like there's something
going on in the soil that haschanged.
And now talk to us about thisgalvanising 5% target that you
and the committee and led by theArchbishop.
What are you saying?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, it's funny, we have different relationships
with numbers.
Some of us quite like them,some of us don't like them.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
As it's gone out.
There's definitely some peoplewho don't like numbers.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, numbers are very concrete and they're
clarifying, and they don'talways tell us the right things,
but sometimes they don't tellus the things we want to hear
either, and so I think one ofthe things that we felt as a
committee was that it'd beenormously helpful for us to
actually have a goal to which wecould work towards, pray about
and measure ourselves against.
(09:31):
Now you need to be careful withgoals, because goals can become
tools that you can hit peopleover the head with, or they can
be a scaffold or a frameworkwithin which you play and pray
and plan and be strategic, andthey're more that for us at
Norwest.
So we don't really we have a 5%goal.
We don't really talk about thenumber much.
(09:52):
We all know what it is you, thestaff, yeah, the ministry team.
We talk about people a lot.
We talk about stories a lot,because every number is a person
, and I remember once speakingto a pastor who said numbers are
for staff but stories are forpeople.
So we just talk about people,but we know what a church of our
(10:13):
size could do, should do, mightdo under God, and we wrestle
with that.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Now I'm just going to get that synod resolution of
repentance back up on the screen.
We call for confession, humblerepentance, where we've fallen
short in not giving sufficientpriority, attention, reflection
and resources to seeing the lostsaved.
Now, pete, you were telling meabout a moment of repentance for
(10:39):
you as a pastor at Norwest andI just wonder if you could take
us into your pastor's heart andthat journey.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, so I've been at Norwest 15 years.
In God's remarkable kindness.
We've only ever seen growth.
Look, there's a few things tosay about that.
We're in the Hills District.
We've now got a metro.
There's a lot of infrastructuregoing in.
The pastor before me laid abeautiful foundation.
People in the Hills get up andthink about going to church even
(11:08):
if they're not converted.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You're the buckle in the Bible belt.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, in some ways we are.
A number of churches around usclosed.
I think we picked up 150 peopleover the years from other
churches who were wonderfullypastored by other godly men.
But we grew and grew and I wasof the conviction that we were
doing really well at evangelismbecause every week there was new
people around.
I then did a consult with ReachAustralia, who Joe serves with,
(11:34):
and I was really lookingforward to them coming.
And telling you, you werebrilliant.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Well, pretty much.
I'm a bit embarrassed to saythat actually I couldn't wait
for Scott Sanders to turn up andreview us.
You guys are awesome.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We've got nothing to teach you, I just couldn't wait
to read the report, which wouldjust affirm all the things we're
doing.
Well, which was everything wewere doing you know of course.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, which was everything we were doing.
You know, of course.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And that wasn't quite the report that came back.
Actually what came back was thatit was pretty hard hitting.
It was it was 2021, end of 2021.
It came back that in 2021, wesaw four people converted in a
church of about 800.
What's that percentage was?
Oh, less than half, less thanhalf.
But if you were to ask mebefore that how many people did
I think were converted, to askme before that how many people
did I think were converted, Iwould have said oh, 20.
(12:14):
So actually, my perception wasso out of step with reality.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And then that really was a moment of repentance.
You told us about standing upand making an apology to your
church.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, I did.
I told the church, I said tothe church that I was sorry for
leading them to believe that wewere better at sharing Christ
than we were and that as a staff, we were reflecting on that and
we're going to make somechanges.
And we did.
We made lots of changes thatstarted a four-year 2025, now
2021 then started a four-yearprocess.
Essentially, there's nothing wehaven't changed and it's been
(12:47):
wonderful, stretching, painfulat times and remarkably fruitful
under God and remarkablyfruitful under God.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So if it was half a percent conversion growth in
2021,.
What was it in 2024?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It was around 4.3% conversion growth.
Yeah, so we had in 2024, we hadaround 56 confessions of faith
and around 30 first-timecommitments.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So we break that down .
The first-time commitments arethe really one we're really
interested in.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, so we had 30 people who, for the first time,
said we have moved from darknessto light.
We've never known Jesus beforeand now we can't but give our
lives to him.
Incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And you'd say that's actually fruit of that decision
of repentance.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Oh there's no doubt yes, there's no doubt that
actually that was a result of ustaking stock, looking at what
we're doing, why we're doing it,how we're doing it not just
thinking about the courses we'rerunning, but actually why we're
running events and courses andthinking about what's the point
of this and how would we know ifwe were doing well anyway, I
ran Norwest for about 10 years.
(13:57):
On anecdote and humour, can Isay it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You are a funny guy and it's highly inaccurate.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
It's a lot of fun and it's highly inaccurate.
In my 11th year I realised Iprobably need to do a bit better
.
There's a little bit of humourand there's lots of stories, but
there's a little moreintentional, deliberate
reflection, counting, planningand praying Right.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
And actually I'm just reflective listening here what
you're suggesting is that we asa diocese have that kind of
moment of what's our conversionrate and what might our target
be.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I think the thing that shocked me was how the
discrepancy between what Ithought and reality and I
couldn't have got there myselfwithout I mean, others might,
but I needed someone external,someone expert, to show me
things that I thought I couldsee but couldn't.
And so I think, yeah, I thinkit's worthwhile for every senior
(14:54):
pastor, every pastor, to slowdown and to think to themselves
is what I'm thinking accurate?
Do I need help, and what mightthat look like?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Now, when I put out on Facebook that we were going
to talk to you about this, I gota message from one senior
leader and say, well, that'sgreat, you've got Pete coming in
and he's amazing and all thatkind of thing.
But buckle of the Bible beltand all that kind of thing, it's
tougher where we are.
And he was a northern Sydneyperson who messaged me and I
(15:24):
messaged him back saying I'vegot John Kwan, who's more normal
coming in.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
That's my label Awesome Thanks, dominic.
Yeah, I think praise God forwhat's happening at Norwest.
That's awesome, and I used tolive in that area, so I love
that that is happening.
So I'm very excited for whatGod is doing there, I think for
us.
I've been at St David's now forthree years just over three
(15:52):
years and we'd had a wonderful,beautiful history, as I said
earlier, of seeing youth come totrust in Jesus, and not just
the youth of church families,but youth of our community.
So our camp about 40% of theyouth that are coming to the
camp every year were communitykids, which was awesome, and I
think that was a wonderfulblessing of what was happening
(16:13):
at our church.
But I think part of that wasthen we said we're doing so well
at youth and kids ministry, weforget to go.
What about adults?
And so I think part of one ofthe things that just drives me
is I want to see everyone cometo know Jesus, not just kids and
youth.
And how do we help that?
And I think that's been a slowprocess over changing me and my
(16:34):
heart and being patient.
I'm sometimes impatient and soGod has taught me to be patient.
But also, how do you help awhole church go?
We want to be on about seeingthe lost saved, not just about
us and our kids growing in Jesus, which is awesome.
And we live in a part of thearea where we do have people
just come at Christmas andEaster and that's it.
(16:55):
But actually we want them to bein the kingdom, we want them to
go from darkness to light, andso I think it's been slower for
us.
We haven't had 45 people in oneyear.
It's been slower.
So over the last three yearswe've seen 12 people come to
Christ, which is awesome and Ilove that, but at the same time
my heart breaks because I knowof those 12, we've had about 50
(17:17):
people or more hear the gospelfor a long period of time.
They've done a course, they'vedone a course and they've said
no to the love of Jesus, andthat breaks my heart because I'm
like, oh, you can't see thebeauty of Jesus.
That's what I think.
While I get so excited and wesee people growing in Jesus,
what breaks my heart is when yousee people come hear the gospel
(17:38):
and then choose to go.
That smells like death, likeI've got a friend at the moment
who we've been praying for andshe's come along bit by bit.
And then she finally said atChristmas I'm going to come to
Christianity Explored, which isawesome.
It's taken her nine months tofinally get there, but she's in
the course at the moment.
But now she's really wrestling.
Do I really want to trust thatJesus rose from the dead?
(17:59):
I'm praying hard but at thesame time there's that tension.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And one of the things you guys say, and I think, is
that really to see somethinglike 10 people say we're going
to need to see 40 people startthe course.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah, so tracking across churches.
Usually you run an evangelisticcourse and about 25% of people
make first-time commitments.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Also helpful to put into it, although maybe not
right, at the end of the courseover the next six months.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, but it was interesting hearing Matt Varko
from Grace City Church theChristian pastor speak the other
day and he was saying actuallythe runway now is so much longer
.
So on average it takes aboutone to two years for someone to
become a Christian, about 50gospel conversations, and so he
actually runs a course that runsfor 22 weeks and he runs it
twice a year because he's justseeing how long and how much it
(18:48):
takes.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I find it so frustrating when people say I
need a three-week course.
It's just so totallyunrealistic.
Yeah, I mean, we know we're notselling them on three weeks,
but I don't say come for my22-week course, I say come along
to our course and check it out.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
And also just making a commitment that the people
that we're regularly praying for, we're committing to pray for
them and love them over a periodof years.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
It's not just during a short period.
Yeah, so we've got two clearanecdotes of people in U2 who
have we weren't tracking high onadult conversion rate.
Now we've made some changes andnow we've got some significant
change in the number of peoplewho are becoming Christian.
(19:34):
Now we've got the significantchange in the number of people
who are becoming Christian.
Now we've got the data in fromboth.
We'll do the Partners inMinistry report first and if you
look on the bottom right ofthis thing, there they're saying
of the people that they'redoing the consultancy program
with, they're getting 6.7, orthey've rounded it up to 7% of
(19:55):
adult attendees become Christian.
Now when I was talking to youand Scott Sanders from Reach
Australia, you were saying, oh,7% sounds a bit ambitious.
But now I think you're sayingthat number is the same number
that you're getting.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Yeah, so very close.
So Partners in Ministry workacross a wider range of
denominations than we do.
It includes Pentecostal datawhich can push a little bit
higher, but before this year'sNational Conference Reach
Australia National Conference wedid a survey of 74 churches
opted in to do the survey and weasked about their conversion
growth.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Let's put that up.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
So this is that survey of 74 churches here 74
churches, 65 establishedchurches, 9 church plants across
about 11 denominations, moststates and territories.
Established churches are seeing6% conversion growth.
Church plants are seeing, onaverage, 9% conversion growth.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Isn't that interesting.
I mean, both of those numbersare exciting.
Yeah, really exciting, amazingyeah.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Really exciting and the lovely thing.
Of those conversions for theestablished churches, only 25%
are returnees.
Three quarters are first-timeconfessions of faith.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
So, which is really really exciting.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Now people are going to say, all right, what about in
the Sydney Anglican Network?
And we've got a graph here fromwhen you first started to talk
to Anglican churches in Sydneyand there's, it looks like 13 or
so churches there.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, so these are only Sydney Anglican churches
and when they start ourleadership development program
we take baseline data to workout where they're tracking on a
number of different areas andone of them is conversion growth
.
So at the start of theleadership development program
they're seeing an averageconversion growth of 1.7% and
(21:52):
you can see that varies acrossdifferent churches and then we
take that data regularly.
So we've now got from June 2024last year, same churches.
If you want to go to the nextslide, I mean that's a big jump.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, just visually you can see it.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
And you can see variety.
So for some churches it's veryhigh, for some churches they're
not so much.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Let's put the graphs side by side.
Yeah, what do you make of that,Pete Steadman?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
That's our story.
We're not up at 10%.
We've gone from half a percentto 4%, which is incredible.
I mean we're still below whereI'd love to be, but we've seen
100 people converted first-timecommitments in the last few
years.
That's a hundred people whosenames written in the book of
life it's amazing, you know butI just love that.
(22:41):
shows what intentionality doesPrayerful, thoughtful
intentionality, senior leadersworking with the team saying how
are we going to do this better,what can we do, what changes do
we need to make?
And the data's compelling.
It's compelling to me and myexperience John's experience
backs that up.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But it's hard, isn't it, pete?
I feel like it's hard becauseyou have to change what's
happening in your heart first.
Then you've got to work out howdo you lead your team, and then
you've got to work out how doyou lead the church so that they
might have a heart for the lostand some of them do, but some
of them are comfortable.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And it might mean that leaders like you and me,
john, actually have to step awayfrom things we love for the
church, for the ministry tofunction better, for the team to
function better, to actually dosome of these things, because
some of the things that I wasdoing was getting in the way of
this and I needed to actuallymove back to enable it to grow.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I want to put to you a pushback that when I put it
out on Facebook that we weregoing to have this conversation,
somebody has written Churchgrowth theology is missing the
point.
You can't force the Holy Spiritto do anything Better.
To just be a consistent,faithful witness, if necessary
using words.
Discuss.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Discuss.
Amen.
You can't force the Holy Spiritto do anything.
Thank goodness that we have asovereign God who is on the
throne, who is Lord of all, andyet I think that question pushes
into the area of compatibilismand the idea that we see in the
Scriptures two equally truethings put before us that God is
(24:08):
entirely sovereign over allthings and yet people make real
decisions in time and space thatimpact and influence.
We're working through Genesisat the moment, the story of
Joseph.
You absolutely see that withGod meant you meant this to harm
me, but God meant this for goodwith the brothers at the end.
But we see it in Acts 14, inIconium, where Paul and Barnabas
(24:30):
preach so effectively that agreat number believe.
Now, what's going on there?
Well, there is a preaching thatis effective, which means
there's preaching that's lesseffective, and so I want to say
that God holds all things andall ways, and yet my efforts I
say this humbly do matter.
And perhaps it's a ridiculousexample, but maybe it makes the
(24:53):
point.
At Norwest, we've found thatthe best language to preach in
our services is English, notFrench.
That's because no one speaksFrench, so people actually
understand my sermons when Ispeak in their language.
That's a decision I've made intime and space and it has a
demonstrable outcome on howpeople react with God's word.
But there's other decisions wemake.
Our services don't go for fourhours, we don't do it in the,
(25:19):
and it just goes to make thepoint that actually there are
decisions we make that helppeople engage more, that we can
influence how God works throughthe preaching of his word with
people, whilst not touching onhis sovereignty in any way.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Okay, Some of the other pushback or discussion
we've had is just in terms ofmeasuring this 5%.
What are we exactly talkingabout?
And I guess you were on thecommittee, pete, so I'll put it
to you Are we thinking adults?
Are we thinking youth?
Are we thinking high school?
(25:54):
What are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, it's important to be clear on this and it's
important to be consistentinternally.
So whatever you're going tocount, count the same thing
within your church, and it's notalways helpful to talk to other
churches about what they'redoing, because people count
different things.
We start with our averageSunday attendance, which is the
total number of adults, youthand kids who come on a Sunday to
Norwest, and then the 5% is.
(26:15):
We take that raw number ofhowever many people come let's
say it's 100 in the averageevery year adults, youth and
kids on a Sunday, and the 5% isthat we want to see five people
come to know Christ for thefirst time.
Now, that's adults, youth andkids.
So in a church it might be 70adults with 20 kids and 10 youth
(26:37):
.
It would be great to see threeadults find Christ and say yes
to him, two kids and one youthor something like that.
Yeah, and then it just scalesfrom there.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
In our church, we've beenrunning at roughly 10 adults
coming to Christ each year forthe last five years and yet, as
I was thinking about it in thelead-up to this conversation,
more of them have been from ourevening church than from our
morning church.
And so, as I've thought aboutgoals for us next year, I've
(27:08):
thought, ah, we need to have agoal of five adults from the
evening and five from themorning saved.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And the reason why you're doing that, dominic, is
not like partly for the sake ofseeing the loss saved, but also
it's trying to drive you to go.
Well, what strategically do weneed to do differently?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Because we're being ineffective in some sense.
Now again, like people sayingGod is sovereign, but there is
an aspect of what we do makes animpact, and so the reason why
you're thinking that goal is sothat you go.
Well, what should we dodifferently?
Yeah, and I think that's tiring.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And depending on where you are, I could have
actually been complacent in themorning.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's.
I reckon that's one of thehardest things about having a
goal is that you have to then bewilling to make changes.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Make changes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
And when you're tired , that's hard.
And so I, like I'm looking atthose comments on Facebook, I'm
going yeah, if you're tired andyou've been trying and trying or
doing the same thing over andover again and not seeing any
fruit, it's hard to go.
Can I have the energy to dosomething else?
And that's why something likeReach or anyone that's going to
(28:18):
give you some external inputs,just challenge you on what
you're currently doing I thinkis really helpful, but it's
humbling and it has to take outall our pride to go.
Okay, god, strip me bare andhelp me go.
What am I willing to do for thesake of the gospel?
And that's hard, I found.
(28:41):
Trying to help our church have abigger heart for the lost in
one sense is a joy and we'reseeing that happen.
But at other times people arefeeling the grief because if
you're growing, whatever growththat happens, it's not the same
as what it was before.
And yet there's like we've got113,000 people that are 10
minute drive away from ourchurch.
(29:01):
That's a lot of people whodon't know Jesus.
A lot of them don't.
Thousand people that are 10minute drive away from our
church that's a lot of peoplewho don't know jesus.
A lot of them don't, uh, and sowhatever we're seeing happen,
it's great, but I'm still going,but there's still so many more
people who need to know jesus,but that's a harder thing to, I
think.
Keep pursuing when I I thinksome people just go, but I've
(29:21):
tried and it hasn't worked.
And and and joe, yeah, what doyou do you have you have any
tips of what you guys haveshared with people who might be
more in that kind of situationwhere they're trying and they're
just like, oh, I'm justexhausted.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
And ministry is really tiring.
There's a lot in a minister'sdiary and if church is declining
then you've got less volunteers, you've got less resources.
It's a bigger workload on thesenior minister.
I think it's not only helpfulto have outside eyes to see
what's happening and to confrontthe brutal facts, but it also
can be quite galvanising for thechurch community to actually
(29:55):
bring key leaders in, for themto hear from someone outside, to
cast their vision a bit biggerthan the church.
And I think it's helpful, as yousaid, whichever organisation it
is, to actually have a coach towalk alongside the senior
pastor, to have a cohort ofsenior ministers that you're in,
where you're sharing what it'slike in the trenches, where it's
(30:15):
got a church health consult,whatever it is, but multiple
components input, because it'snot like a two-month thing.
It's not a silver bullet.
It takes time and energy andperseverance to keep seeing that
culture change happenprayerfully under God over a
number of years.
So yeah, I think I would sayit's unfair to expect that a
(30:37):
senior minister can come up withall of that and see that change
and do it all themselves.
We're in the body of Christ.
It's really helpful to haveother people walk with you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Facebook question.
At what point do you call itconversion, public profession,
baptism, the captain's call of?
Yeah, they probably weren'tsaved before, but I think they
are now.
Where do recommitments sit?
I know people always say pickwhat you think and then stick,
but what do you use?
We're going to ask Joe thisquestion because you're the one
who advises us on what to do.
Also, let's chat long-term howdo you check if they're still
(31:09):
maturing in church?
I've talked to Phil Colganabout this and he said there's a
joke about it that they won'tcount somebody as saved until
they're at theological college.
That's pretty strict, he'shardcore.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Yeah, he is Within our network.
We've got a range ofdenominations so you would have
different views denominationalpolity on infant adult baptism.
So partly it depends on whereyou land in those areas.
But you will always have amixture of first-time
confessions, also some de-churchreturnee.
So you want to be clear on whattime period you're looking at
(31:45):
for that.
I think it's important toinclude kids and youth in that.
So the NCLS newcomerinformation I think only counts
adults, but I think it's reallykey to break down that age.
But yeah, it depends on yourchurch.
But you'd want to be seeing aclear commitment with clear
understanding.
So it's not a one-off.
(32:06):
They've been part of anevangelistic course or reading
the Bible with someoneone-to-one.
They clearly understand thegospel and they have made that
decision to turn to Christ.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But yeah, pete and I were just having lunch together
before coming in here and I wasshowing him my Google Doc of the
names of people who've beensaved over the last five or six
years here, and we've gone backand colour-coded them red, green
and orange about whether or not, as we know now whether or not
they're still walking with.
(32:38):
Christ, and some of them we'velost contact with.
We don't know, but some of themwe definitely know are still
Christian and it's been reallyhelpful for us to do that.
Yeah, pete, what's yourstrategy on that?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
So we do different things Because we count adults,
youth and kids.
It's different at each level.
We just finished a Discovercourse 12 people started, 16
started, 12 finished, four madecommitments.
They wrote on a form that theydidn't believe in Jesus before
the course, didn't trust inJesus do at the end.
(33:09):
And then there was a diagnosticquestion if you stood before
Jesus tonight, what would yousay?
And so, out of all thoseanswers, my mission pastor and I
thought there was four Of the12 who finished.
They're all going to do ournext course, firm Foundations,
which is to your point.
It's not just six weeks, there's12 months of walking with
(33:30):
someone at least, as they keepunderstanding more and more.
And to build assurance as well.
Assurance is hard for all of us, even if we've been a Christian
a long time, let alone asix-week course.
In youth.
It needs to be a verbaldeclaration backed up with a
lived experience and a livedcommitment, and that could be to
a youth group, to a Bible study, to church attendance, to
things like that.
(33:50):
Youth often conversions happenon youth camp and our youth team
are across that.
And then in kids ministry.
Our kids pastor is the expertthere, so we take the lead from
him.
But the comment there abouttracking over time is
interesting.
I spoke to my mission pastortoday about that, where we've
just started to do that.
It's also worth saying thatwhen people are converted to the
West, they actually join apathway that all people are on.
(34:11):
So even if we haven't beentracking them specifically for
new converts, where are they inthree years?
We do know where they are inthe life cycle of the church as
they move along a broaderpathway, and so we are able to
actually check in.
Because, again, they're notstats, they're people.
We know them, we know theirstories, we know their families.
It's Val who's just become aChristian here, and then it's
Mary who heard that sermon, andso on and so forth.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
And you're wanting to see that growth in maturity,
that discipleship pathway, andso this isn't the only
information you're collecting.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That's right, it's actually about?
Speaker 4 (34:38):
are they integrated into church life, are they
joining a growth group and then,as they're maturing, you know,
are they serving at church?
There's a whole bunch of thingsyou'd want to be looking at as
well.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
We could talk much more, but we're out of time.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Pete Stedman and he is theSenior Minister at Norwest
Anglican Church, john Kwan, leadPastor at Forestville and Jo
Gibbs, senior consultant withthe Reach Australia Network.
My name is Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart and we will look forward
(35:09):
to your company next Tuesdayafternoon.
a bounce back in attendance and an initiative to
significantly increase thenumber of people saved.
Pete stedman, john kwan and joegibbs are my guests.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
It was 12 months ago that thenews came out hard, hard news to
hear about a big attendancedrop in Sydney Anglican churches
Over the decade 2013 to 2023,attendance was down 7%, or 14%,
(00:36):
against population growth.
Last year, at the SydneyAnglican Synod, there was a
resolution calling forconfession and humble repentance
where we've fallen short in notgiving sufficient priority,
attention, reflection andresources to seeing the lost
throughout the diocese saved byJesus, and there was a call for
(01:00):
a special five-year focus torespond to our attendance
decline making prayer,evangelism, church' time.
There's a response.
The Standing Committee of theSydney Church appointed a
subcommittee led by theArchbishop and they have come up
(01:20):
with a range of actions to beimplemented.
And they have come up with arange of actions to be
implemented and a proposal of agalvanising target pursuing a 5%
growth goal through conversiongrowth each year for the next
five years.
Our guest today on the Pastor'sHeart Pete Stedman.
He was on the subcommittee thathas proposed this goal.
He's Senior Minister of NorwestAnglican Church.
(01:43):
John Kwan, lead Pastor ofForestville on the northern
beaches of Sydney, and Joe Gibbs, senior Consultant from the
Reach Australia Network anddisclosure.
I also served with Peter onthat subcommittee.
Pete Stedman, let's start withyou and your pastor's heart and
look after a super confrontingreport last year.
(02:03):
Great news to see evangelicalchurch attendance in Sydney
bouncing back.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, it's fabulous, isn't it?
And I loved that the Synodrepented, reflected and prayed.
I mean, what a lovely posture,the right posture, the only
posture to take before our Godand to do the hard work of
asking questions about whatwe're doing, how we're going,
and we'll get to this.
But that's what we want to keepdoing as a diocese, certainly
what I want to keep doing as apastor.
(02:30):
Yeah, really encouraging thepeople coming back.
I'm not sure if the COVID bounceback has just taken a bit
longer.
I'm not sure if the you know,the sniffle effect is sort of
losing its sting.
You know people got a sniffleand then wouldn't come to church
for a month because they wereterrified of getting people
infected.
But maybe people are more happyto go out now.
But we're seeing new familiesand even on the weekend I spoke
(02:52):
to a new family.
They've been back six weeks butthey were at Norwest four years
ago and they're saying it'sjust taken us out of the rhythm
through COVID and are saying wenow want to get back into it.
So it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
We'll put the graph up on the screen and you can see
here that 4.3% whatever it isbounced back in the last 12
months and it does mean thatwhereas last year we were
talking about a 7% drop over 10years, we're now talking about a
(03:24):
3% drop.
Now, john Kwan, regionalbreakdown You're on the North
Shore.
Northern beaches Northernbeaches, yeah, of Sydney, but we
were looking at statistics andwe can put them up here.
Where the North was reallystruggling, you know, down 14%,
(03:45):
but actually in your areathere's been a rise.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, it's really encouraging.
It's actually a wonderful joy.
One of the things that I'vereally enjoyed over the last
couple of years in particular isus, as the Northern Beaches
region of the Anglican churches,working together, and so we had
a prayer and praise nighttogether as all our churches,
and then we did a Hope for theBeaches youth event, and at that
(04:09):
youth event we had I think itwas over 500 youth and over a
hundred of them put their trustin the Lord Jesus and that was
just an awesome moment.
And so there is somethinghappening that we're starting to
see in our part of Sydney,which is really encouraging.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I mean just still looking on that graph.
There's some super encouragingnews about South Sydney, with an
11% growth and a bit of abounce back as well in
Wollongong.
But, Jo Gibbs, I feel worriedabout that drop in Western
Sydney, particularly when youtake into account the crazy
population explosion in thatGreenfields area.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Yeah, and as you pointed out before, this is
still a decline of 3%, butagainst population growth.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You think what's going on there?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so areas that are seeinglarge population growth, we
should be seeing bigger growthnumbers, just to be tracking
with population growth but we'renot seeing those yet.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, and so there's clearly some scratching of heads
that needs to happen amongstthe Western Sydney leadership.
There there's also been goingon.
We're talking in the UK about aquiet revival, and I was
discussing this on the phonewith you, john, and you're
seeing some evidence of wellteenagers and young adults,
(05:30):
where something different seemsto be going on in the soil.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, we've had the wonderful privilege and history
of having quite a healthyevangelistic youth group for
many, many years before I evengot to St David's in Forestville
.
But over the last couple ofyears we've seen something
different happen, where they'regoing to youth and going I want
to know more about Jesus.
And then they're coming tochurch without their parents.
You're seven, you're eight,you're nine kids coming to
(05:54):
church and then they're comingto Christ.
We have this beautiful story ofone young teenager.
She came to our camp in themiddle at the beginning of the
year still trying to work outJesus been coming to youth and
then comes to church and thentells her growth group leader
halfway through this year Ithink it was just because I was
just keep coming to all thesethings that I want to trust
Jesus now, and isn't thatawesome.
(06:16):
So there's that.
But then also we're seeing a lotof young men who have no kind
of church background at all,just finding friends who are
Christian in our church, goinghey, can I come to church with
you?
I want to know what's going on.
And they're seeing things onReels or TikTok or Instagram or
something that's getting them tothink and I've been reflecting,
(06:36):
just wondering what issomething in our culture is
getting particularly young adultmen going.
There's something about Jesusthat I've got to work out, and
so that's really exciting for me.
It's my heart.
I love sharing the good news ofJesus with people and seeing
them turn to Christ.
The evangelist in me loves that, and so I love that they've got
all these people who don't yetknow Jesus coming to church
(06:59):
going.
I'm going to keep coming back.
I want to hear more.
I want to know why these peoplelove this person, jesus.
What is it about him?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, so it's really exciting and my sense is.
I mean I think it was perhapslate last year that I first
started to think young men andsomething special about young
men, but the number of peoplewho've told me that story since
then and actually what we'veseen in our context, I mean you
said it's not quite aspronounced where you are, pete.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
No, I don't think it is.
I was just sitting herethinking, oh, I don't want to
ruin the episode, but I justwonder if there's regional
differences or things like that.
But in the hills we're notquite seeing that and, as I've
spoken to my mission pastor,we're still seeing a number of
women coming through and plentyof guys as well.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
We're still seeing a number of women coming through
and plenty of guys as well, butnot that elevated piece that
John's speaking to, whereas Ithink every course we've run
this year there have been moremen than women, and that's not
been our experience for 20 years.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Do you know, jo, I was going to say Life Anglican
at Quakers Hill are seeingsomething very similar as well.
So, yeah, seeing young men comeand just kind of out of the
blue and a little bit sceptical.
So I was talking to JamesBarnett at Life Anglican and he
said I was thinking this guy'shaving me on.
You know he's not reallyserious.
And no, no, really seriousabout wanting to know about
Jesus and making decisions, soreally exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, I mean, I interviewed a guy on Sunday
night after church.
We're just recording a littlebit for our Term 4 vision season
and as he was telling me hisstory of coming to Christ, you
know he's exactly the personthat you're describing there,
John.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But praise God, whether it's men, women, young,
old.
It's awesome, like I thinkwe're seeing it as well.
We're seeing people from allages wanting to investigate
Jesus, so from the young adultsall the way up to seniors, which
is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
But bottom line there feels like there's something
going on in the soil that haschanged.
And now talk to us about thisgalvanising 5% target that you
and the committee and led by theArchbishop.
What are you saying?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, it's funny, we have different relationships
with numbers.
Some of us quite like them,some of us don't like them.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
As it's gone out.
There's definitely some peoplewho don't like numbers.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, numbers are very concrete and they're
clarifying, and they don'talways tell us the right things,
but sometimes they don't tellus the things we want to hear
either, and so I think one ofthe things that we felt as a
committee was that it'd beenormously helpful for us to
actually have a goal to which wecould work towards, pray about
and measure ourselves against.
(09:31):
Now you need to be careful withgoals, because goals can become
tools that you can hit peopleover the head with, or they can
be a scaffold or a frameworkwithin which you play and pray
and plan and be strategic, andthey're more that for us at
Norwest.
So we don't really we have a 5%goal.
We don't really talk about thenumber much.
(09:52):
We all know what it is you, thestaff, yeah, the ministry team.
We talk about people a lot.
We talk about stories a lot,because every number is a person
, and I remember once speakingto a pastor who said numbers are
for staff but stories are forpeople.
So we just talk about people,but we know what a church of our
(10:13):
size could do, should do, mightdo under God, and we wrestle
with that.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Now I'm just going to get that synod resolution of
repentance back up on the screen.
We call for confession, humblerepentance, where we've fallen
short in not giving sufficientpriority, attention, reflection
and resources to seeing the lostsaved.
Now, pete, you were telling meabout a moment of repentance for
(10:39):
you as a pastor at Norwest andI just wonder if you could take
us into your pastor's heart andthat journey.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, so I've been at Norwest 15 years.
In God's remarkable kindness.
We've only ever seen growth.
Look, there's a few things tosay about that.
We're in the Hills District.
We've now got a metro.
There's a lot of infrastructuregoing in.
The pastor before me laid abeautiful foundation.
People in the Hills get up andthink about going to church even
(11:08):
if they're not converted.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You're the buckle in the Bible belt.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, in some ways we are.
A number of churches around usclosed.
I think we picked up 150 peopleover the years from other
churches who were wonderfullypastored by other godly men.
But we grew and grew and I wasof the conviction that we were
doing really well at evangelismbecause every week there was new
people around.
I then did a consult with ReachAustralia, who Joe serves with,
(11:34):
and I was really lookingforward to them coming.
And telling you, you werebrilliant.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Well, pretty much.
I'm a bit embarrassed to saythat actually I couldn't wait
for Scott Sanders to turn up andreview us.
You guys are awesome.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
We've got nothing to teach you, I just couldn't wait
to read the report, which wouldjust affirm all the things we're
doing.
Well, which was everything wewere doing you know of course.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, which was everything we were doing.
You know, of course.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And that wasn't quite the report that came back.
Actually what came back was thatit was pretty hard hitting.
It was it was 2021, end of 2021.
It came back that in 2021, wesaw four people converted in a
church of about 800.
What's that percentage was?
Oh, less than half, less thanhalf.
But if you were to ask mebefore that how many people did
I think were converted, to askme before that how many people
did I think were converted, Iwould have said oh, 20.
(12:14):
So actually, my perception wasso out of step with reality.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And then that really was a moment of repentance.
You told us about standing upand making an apology to your
church.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, I did.
I told the church, I said tothe church that I was sorry for
leading them to believe that wewere better at sharing Christ
than we were and that as a staff, we were reflecting on that and
we're going to make somechanges.
And we did.
We made lots of changes thatstarted a four-year 2025, now
2021 then started a four-yearprocess.
Essentially, there's nothing wehaven't changed and it's been
(12:47):
wonderful, stretching, painfulat times and remarkably fruitful
under God and remarkablyfruitful under God.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So if it was half a percent conversion growth in
2021,.
What was it in 2024?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It was around 4.3% conversion growth.
Yeah, so we had in 2024, we hadaround 56 confessions of faith
and around 30 first-timecommitments.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So we break that down .
The first-time commitments arethe really one we're really
interested in.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, so we had 30 people who, for the first time,
said we have moved from darknessto light.
We've never known Jesus beforeand now we can't but give our
lives to him.
Incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And you'd say that's actually fruit of that decision
of repentance.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Oh there's no doubt yes, there's no doubt that
actually that was a result of ustaking stock, looking at what
we're doing, why we're doing it,how we're doing it not just
thinking about the courses we'rerunning, but actually why we're
running events and courses andthinking about what's the point
of this and how would we know ifwe were doing well anyway, I
ran Norwest for about 10 years.
(13:57):
On anecdote and humour, can Isay it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You are a funny guy and it's highly inaccurate.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
It's a lot of fun and it's highly inaccurate.
In my 11th year I realised Iprobably need to do a bit better
.
There's a little bit of humourand there's lots of stories, but
there's a little moreintentional, deliberate
reflection, counting, planningand praying Right.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
And actually I'm just reflective listening here what
you're suggesting is that we asa diocese have that kind of
moment of what's our conversionrate and what might our target
be.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I think the thing that shocked me was how the
discrepancy between what Ithought and reality and I
couldn't have got there myselfwithout I mean, others might,
but I needed someone external,someone expert, to show me
things that I thought I couldsee but couldn't.
And so I think, yeah, I thinkit's worthwhile for every senior
(14:54):
pastor, every pastor, to slowdown and to think to themselves
is what I'm thinking accurate?
Do I need help, and what mightthat look like?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Now, when I put out on Facebook that we were going
to talk to you about this, I gota message from one senior
leader and say, well, that'sgreat, you've got Pete coming in
and he's amazing and all thatkind of thing.
But buckle of the Bible beltand all that kind of thing, it's
tougher where we are.
And he was a northern Sydneyperson who messaged me and I
(15:24):
messaged him back saying I'vegot John Kwan, who's more normal
coming in.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
That's my label Awesome Thanks, dominic.
Yeah, I think praise God forwhat's happening at Norwest.
That's awesome, and I used tolive in that area, so I love
that that is happening.
So I'm very excited for whatGod is doing there, I think for
us.
I've been at St David's now forthree years just over three
(15:52):
years and we'd had a wonderful,beautiful history, as I said
earlier, of seeing youth come totrust in Jesus, and not just
the youth of church families,but youth of our community.
So our camp about 40% of theyouth that are coming to the
camp every year were communitykids, which was awesome, and I
think that was a wonderfulblessing of what was happening
(16:13):
at our church.
But I think part of that wasthen we said we're doing so well
at youth and kids ministry, weforget to go.
What about adults?
And so I think part of one ofthe things that just drives me
is I want to see everyone cometo know Jesus, not just kids and
youth.
And how do we help that?
And I think that's been a slowprocess over changing me and my
(16:34):
heart and being patient.
I'm sometimes impatient and soGod has taught me to be patient.
But also, how do you help awhole church go?
We want to be on about seeingthe lost saved, not just about
us and our kids growing in Jesus, which is awesome.
And we live in a part of thearea where we do have people
just come at Christmas andEaster and that's it.
(16:55):
But actually we want them to bein the kingdom, we want them to
go from darkness to light, andso I think it's been slower for
us.
We haven't had 45 people in oneyear.
It's been slower.
So over the last three yearswe've seen 12 people come to
Christ, which is awesome and Ilove that, but at the same time
my heart breaks because I knowof those 12, we've had about 50
(17:17):
people or more hear the gospelfor a long period of time.
They've done a course, they'vedone a course and they've said
no to the love of Jesus, andthat breaks my heart because I'm
like, oh, you can't see thebeauty of Jesus.
That's what I think.
While I get so excited and wesee people growing in Jesus,
what breaks my heart is when yousee people come hear the gospel
(17:38):
and then choose to go.
That smells like death, likeI've got a friend at the moment
who we've been praying for andshe's come along bit by bit.
And then she finally said atChristmas I'm going to come to
Christianity Explored, which isawesome.
It's taken her nine months tofinally get there, but she's in
the course at the moment.
But now she's really wrestling.
Do I really want to trust thatJesus rose from the dead?
(17:59):
I'm praying hard but at thesame time there's that tension.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And one of the things you guys say, and I think, is
that really to see somethinglike 10 people say we're going
to need to see 40 people startthe course.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah, so tracking across churches.
Usually you run an evangelisticcourse and about 25% of people
make first-time commitments.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Also helpful to put into it, although maybe not
right, at the end of the courseover the next six months.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, but it was interesting hearing Matt Varko
from Grace City Church theChristian pastor speak the other
day and he was saying actuallythe runway now is so much longer
.
So on average it takes aboutone to two years for someone to
become a Christian, about 50gospel conversations, and so he
actually runs a course that runsfor 22 weeks and he runs it
twice a year because he's justseeing how long and how much it
(18:48):
takes.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I find it so frustrating when people say I
need a three-week course.
It's just so totallyunrealistic.
Yeah, I mean, we know we're notselling them on three weeks,
but I don't say come for my22-week course, I say come along
to our course and check it out.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
And also just making a commitment that the people
that we're regularly praying for, we're committing to pray for
them and love them over a periodof years.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
It's not just during a short period.
Yeah, so we've got two clearanecdotes of people in U2 who
have we weren't tracking high onadult conversion rate.
Now we've made some changes andnow we've got some significant
change in the number of peoplewho are becoming Christian.
(19:34):
Now we've got the significantchange in the number of people
who are becoming Christian.
Now we've got the data in fromboth.
We'll do the Partners inMinistry report first and if you
look on the bottom right ofthis thing, there they're saying
of the people that they'redoing the consultancy program
with, they're getting 6.7, orthey've rounded it up to 7% of
(19:55):
adult attendees become Christian.
Now when I was talking to youand Scott Sanders from Reach
Australia, you were saying, oh,7% sounds a bit ambitious.
But now I think you're sayingthat number is the same number
that you're getting.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Yeah, so very close.
So Partners in Ministry workacross a wider range of
denominations than we do.
It includes Pentecostal datawhich can push a little bit
higher, but before this year'sNational Conference Reach
Australia National Conference wedid a survey of 74 churches
opted in to do the survey and weasked about their conversion
growth.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Let's put that up.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
So this is that survey of 74 churches here 74
churches, 65 establishedchurches, 9 church plants across
about 11 denominations, moststates and territories.
Established churches are seeing6% conversion growth.
Church plants are seeing, onaverage, 9% conversion growth.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Isn't that interesting.
I mean, both of those numbersare exciting.
Yeah, really exciting, amazingyeah.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Really exciting and the lovely thing.
Of those conversions for theestablished churches, only 25%
are returnees.
Three quarters are first-timeconfessions of faith.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
So, which is really really exciting.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Now people are going to say, all right, what about in
the Sydney Anglican Network?
And we've got a graph here fromwhen you first started to talk
to Anglican churches in Sydneyand there's, it looks like 13 or
so churches there.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, so these are only Sydney Anglican churches
and when they start ourleadership development program
we take baseline data to workout where they're tracking on a
number of different areas andone of them is conversion growth
.
So at the start of theleadership development program
they're seeing an averageconversion growth of 1.7% and
(21:52):
you can see that varies acrossdifferent churches and then we
take that data regularly.
So we've now got from June 2024last year, same churches.
If you want to go to the nextslide, I mean that's a big jump.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, just visually you can see it.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
And you can see variety.
So for some churches it's veryhigh, for some churches they're
not so much.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Let's put the graphs side by side.
Yeah, what do you make of that,Pete Steadman?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
That's our story.
We're not up at 10%.
We've gone from half a percentto 4%, which is incredible.
I mean we're still below whereI'd love to be, but we've seen
100 people converted first-timecommitments in the last few
years.
That's a hundred people whosenames written in the book of
life it's amazing, you know butI just love that.
(22:41):
shows what intentionality doesPrayerful, thoughtful
intentionality, senior leadersworking with the team saying how
are we going to do this better,what can we do, what changes do
we need to make?
And the data's compelling.
It's compelling to me and myexperience John's experience
backs that up.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But it's hard, isn't it, pete?
I feel like it's hard becauseyou have to change what's
happening in your heart first.
Then you've got to work out howdo you lead your team, and then
you've got to work out how doyou lead the church so that they
might have a heart for the lostand some of them do, but some
of them are comfortable.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And it might mean that leaders like you and me,
john, actually have to step awayfrom things we love for the
church, for the ministry tofunction better, for the team to
function better, to actually dosome of these things, because
some of the things that I wasdoing was getting in the way of
this and I needed to actuallymove back to enable it to grow.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I want to put to you a pushback that when I put it
out on Facebook that we weregoing to have this conversation,
somebody has written Churchgrowth theology is missing the
point.
You can't force the Holy Spiritto do anything Better.
To just be a consistent,faithful witness, if necessary
using words.
Discuss.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Discuss.
Amen.
You can't force the Holy Spiritto do anything.
Thank goodness that we have asovereign God who is on the
throne, who is Lord of all, andyet I think that question pushes
into the area of compatibilismand the idea that we see in the
Scriptures two equally truethings put before us that God is
(24:08):
entirely sovereign over allthings and yet people make real
decisions in time and space thatimpact and influence.
We're working through Genesisat the moment, the story of
Joseph.
You absolutely see that withGod meant you meant this to harm
me, but God meant this for goodwith the brothers at the end.
But we see it in Acts 14, inIconium, where Paul and Barnabas
(24:30):
preach so effectively that agreat number believe.
Now, what's going on there?
Well, there is a preaching thatis effective, which means
there's preaching that's lesseffective, and so I want to say
that God holds all things andall ways, and yet my efforts I
say this humbly do matter.
And perhaps it's a ridiculousexample, but maybe it makes the
(24:53):
point.
At Norwest, we've found thatthe best language to preach in
our services is English, notFrench.
That's because no one speaksFrench, so people actually
understand my sermons when Ispeak in their language.
That's a decision I've made intime and space and it has a
demonstrable outcome on howpeople react with God's word.
But there's other decisions wemake.
Our services don't go for fourhours, we don't do it in the,
(25:19):
and it just goes to make thepoint that actually there are
decisions we make that helppeople engage more, that we can
influence how God works throughthe preaching of his word with
people, whilst not touching onhis sovereignty in any way.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Okay, Some of the other pushback or discussion
we've had is just in terms ofmeasuring this 5%.
What are we exactly talkingabout?
And I guess you were on thecommittee, pete, so I'll put it
to you Are we thinking adults?
Are we thinking youth?
Are we thinking high school?
(25:54):
What are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, it's important to be clear on this and it's
important to be consistentinternally.
So whatever you're going tocount, count the same thing
within your church, and it's notalways helpful to talk to other
churches about what they'redoing, because people count
different things.
We start with our averageSunday attendance, which is the
total number of adults, youthand kids who come on a Sunday to
Norwest, and then the 5% is.
(26:15):
We take that raw number ofhowever many people come let's
say it's 100 in the averageevery year adults, youth and
kids on a Sunday, and the 5% isthat we want to see five people
come to know Christ for thefirst time.
Now, that's adults, youth andkids.
So in a church it might be 70adults with 20 kids and 10 youth
(26:37):
.
It would be great to see threeadults find Christ and say yes
to him, two kids and one youthor something like that.
Yeah, and then it just scalesfrom there.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
In our church, we've beenrunning at roughly 10 adults
coming to Christ each year forthe last five years and yet, as
I was thinking about it in thelead-up to this conversation,
more of them have been from ourevening church than from our
morning church.
And so, as I've thought aboutgoals for us next year, I've
(27:08):
thought, ah, we need to have agoal of five adults from the
evening and five from themorning saved.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And the reason why you're doing that, dominic, is
not like partly for the sake ofseeing the loss saved, but also
it's trying to drive you to go.
Well, what strategically do weneed to do differently?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Because we're being ineffective in some sense.
Now again, like people sayingGod is sovereign, but there is
an aspect of what we do makes animpact, and so the reason why
you're thinking that goal is sothat you go.
Well, what should we dodifferently?
Yeah, and I think that's tiring.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And depending on where you are, I could have
actually been complacent in themorning.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's.
I reckon that's one of thehardest things about having a
goal is that you have to then bewilling to make changes.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Make changes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
And when you're tired , that's hard.
And so I, like I'm looking atthose comments on Facebook, I'm
going yeah, if you're tired andyou've been trying and trying or
doing the same thing over andover again and not seeing any
fruit, it's hard to go.
Can I have the energy to dosomething else?
And that's why something likeReach or anyone that's going to
(28:18):
give you some external inputs,just challenge you on what
you're currently doing I thinkis really helpful, but it's
humbling and it has to take outall our pride to go.
Okay, god, strip me bare andhelp me go.
What am I willing to do for thesake of the gospel?
And that's hard, I found.
(28:41):
Trying to help our church have abigger heart for the lost in
one sense is a joy and we'reseeing that happen.
But at other times people arefeeling the grief because if
you're growing, whatever growththat happens, it's not the same
as what it was before.
And yet there's like we've got113,000 people that are 10
minute drive away from ourchurch.
(29:01):
That's a lot of people whodon't know Jesus.
A lot of them don't.
Thousand people that are 10minute drive away from our
church that's a lot of peoplewho don't know jesus.
A lot of them don't, uh, and sowhatever we're seeing happen,
it's great, but I'm still going,but there's still so many more
people who need to know jesus,but that's a harder thing to, I
think.
Keep pursuing when I I thinksome people just go, but I've
(29:21):
tried and it hasn't worked.
And and and joe, yeah, what doyou do you have you have any
tips of what you guys haveshared with people who might be
more in that kind of situationwhere they're trying and they're
just like, oh, I'm justexhausted.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
And ministry is really tiring.
There's a lot in a minister'sdiary and if church is declining
then you've got less volunteers, you've got less resources.
It's a bigger workload on thesenior minister.
I think it's not only helpfulto have outside eyes to see
what's happening and to confrontthe brutal facts, but it also
can be quite galvanising for thechurch community to actually
(29:55):
bring key leaders in, for themto hear from someone outside, to
cast their vision a bit biggerthan the church.
And I think it's helpful, as yousaid, whichever organisation it
is, to actually have a coach towalk alongside the senior
pastor, to have a cohort ofsenior ministers that you're in,
where you're sharing what it'slike in the trenches, where it's
(30:15):
got a church health consult,whatever it is, but multiple
components input, because it'snot like a two-month thing.
It's not a silver bullet.
It takes time and energy andperseverance to keep seeing that
culture change happenprayerfully under God over a
number of years.
So yeah, I think I would sayit's unfair to expect that a
(30:37):
senior minister can come up withall of that and see that change
and do it all themselves.
We're in the body of Christ.
It's really helpful to haveother people walk with you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Facebook question.
At what point do you call itconversion, public profession,
baptism, the captain's call of?
Yeah, they probably weren'tsaved before, but I think they
are now.
Where do recommitments sit?
I know people always say pickwhat you think and then stick,
but what do you use?
We're going to ask Joe thisquestion because you're the one
who advises us on what to do.
Also, let's chat long-term howdo you check if they're still
(31:09):
maturing in church?
I've talked to Phil Colganabout this and he said there's a
joke about it that they won'tcount somebody as saved until
they're at theological college.
That's pretty strict, he'shardcore.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Yeah, he is Within our network.
We've got a range ofdenominations so you would have
different views denominationalpolity on infant adult baptism.
So partly it depends on whereyou land in those areas.
But you will always have amixture of first-time
confessions, also some de-churchreturnee.
So you want to be clear on whattime period you're looking at
(31:45):
for that.
I think it's important toinclude kids and youth in that.
So the NCLS newcomerinformation I think only counts
adults, but I think it's reallykey to break down that age.
But yeah, it depends on yourchurch.
But you'd want to be seeing aclear commitment with clear
understanding.
So it's not a one-off.
(32:06):
They've been part of anevangelistic course or reading
the Bible with someoneone-to-one.
They clearly understand thegospel and they have made that
decision to turn to Christ.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But yeah, pete and I were just having lunch together
before coming in here and I wasshowing him my Google Doc of the
names of people who've beensaved over the last five or six
years here, and we've gone backand colour-coded them red, green
and orange about whether or not, as we know now whether or not
they're still walking with.
(32:38):
Christ, and some of them we'velost contact with.
We don't know, but some of themwe definitely know are still
Christian and it's been reallyhelpful for us to do that.
Yeah, pete, what's yourstrategy on that?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
So we do different things Because we count adults,
youth and kids.
It's different at each level.
We just finished a Discovercourse 12 people started, 16
started, 12 finished, four madecommitments.
They wrote on a form that theydidn't believe in Jesus before
the course, didn't trust inJesus do at the end.
(33:09):
And then there was a diagnosticquestion if you stood before
Jesus tonight, what would yousay?
And so, out of all thoseanswers, my mission pastor and I
thought there was four Of the12 who finished.
They're all going to do ournext course, firm Foundations,
which is to your point.
It's not just six weeks, there's12 months of walking with
(33:30):
someone at least, as they keepunderstanding more and more.
And to build assurance as well.
Assurance is hard for all of us, even if we've been a Christian
a long time, let alone asix-week course.
In youth.
It needs to be a verbaldeclaration backed up with a
lived experience and a livedcommitment, and that could be to
a youth group, to a Bible study, to church attendance, to
things like that.
(33:50):
Youth often conversions happenon youth camp and our youth team
are across that.
And then in kids ministry.
Our kids pastor is the expertthere, so we take the lead from
him.
But the comment there abouttracking over time is
interesting.
I spoke to my mission pastortoday about that, where we've
just started to do that.
It's also worth saying thatwhen people are converted to the
West, they actually join apathway that all people are on.
(34:11):
So even if we haven't beentracking them specifically for
new converts, where are they inthree years?
We do know where they are inthe life cycle of the church as
they move along a broaderpathway, and so we are able to
actually check in.
Because, again, they're notstats, they're people.
We know them, we know theirstories, we know their families.
It's Val who's just become aChristian here, and then it's
Mary who heard that sermon, andso on and so forth.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
And you're wanting to see that growth in maturity,
that discipleship pathway, andso this isn't the only
information you're collecting.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That's right, it's actually about?
Speaker 4 (34:38):
are they integrated into church life, are they
joining a growth group and then,as they're maturing, you know,
are they serving at church?
There's a whole bunch of thingsyou'd want to be looking at as
well.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
We could talk much more, but we're out of time.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Pete Stedman and he is theSenior Minister at Norwest
Anglican Church, john Kwan, leadPastor at Forestville and Jo
Gibbs, senior consultant withthe Reach Australia Network.
My name is Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart and we will look forward
(35:09):
to your company next Tuesdayafternoon.
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