January 6, 2025 • 34 mins
We speak to Alistair Begg about pastors, suffering, humility and surviving long term in ministry.
Alistair Begg is in Australia speaking at the Church Missionary Society conference in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney.
Alistair has served the people of Cleveland Ohio for 42 years at Parkside Church and has a global impact through the influential Truth for Life Ministry.
We go backstage with Alistair to discuss:
- His teaching on 1 Peter, focusing on suffering, perseverance, trials, humility and standing firm in God’s grace.
- Reflections on 40+ years of pastoral ministry and lessons learned along the way.
- Insights into global mission and the long-term commitment of missionaries.
- His upcoming transition after more than four decades of leadership.
- The impact of Australia on his ministry in the US, including his close friendship with former Moore College Principal John Woodhouse.
- Insights into preparing for life after pastoral leadership as he approaches his final months as senior pastor.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
It is the pastor's heart, and Dominic Steele and
Alistair Begg is with us fromParkside Church in Cleveland,
Ohio.
We're on location in Katoombain the Blue Mountains, to the
west of Sydney, where the ChurchMissionary Society Summer
School is taking place andAlistair is the keynote speaker
for this week-long convention.
We're in the Convention CentreBookshop in a break between
(00:28):
sessions.
There's about 3,000 delegateshere thinking and praying about
global mission and Alistair isteaching on 1 Peter.
3,000, that's actually the samesize as Alistair's regular
Sunday church attendance.
In the 40 years that he's beensenior pastor.
Parkside Church has grown fromaround 300 to now around 3,000.
(00:50):
Alistair, thanks for coming andtalking to us.
You're teaching on 1 Peter andI'm just thinking the pastor's
heart and even the missionary'sheart, of suffering grief in all
sorts of trials, beingstrangers and aliens in the
world, and specificallysuffering for being Christian.
What's been your heart for thepeople of this missionary
(01:14):
society as you've come toprepare these talks?
Because you've been thinkingfreshly about 1 Peter for this
conference.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, first of all, coming here is an experience in
itself, because I only knew ofit by report, and I would say
that actually, just since I gothere on Friday, I've had a far
greater appreciation of what isgoing on, who is here, what they
(01:42):
represent, and it has helped me, since the first address, at
least begin to moderate mypoints of application.
The principles of 1 Peter,though, in terms of, as you say,
suffering or a cross that leadsto a crown Peter dealing with
an environment that isessentially a pre-Christian
(02:04):
environment, where there is agreat pushback against the
claims of Jesus.
We're living in essentially apost-Christian environment.
Many of these people definitelyare in a pluralistic context,
and so part of what Peter ishelping us to do and this is why
I began at the end, in the 12thverse of chapter 5, where he
(02:24):
actually tells us what he wasdoing in his letter I've written
to you to make sure you knowthat this is the true grace of
God.
Stand firm in it.
(03:05):
And I found increasingly thatthe role that one is given in
pastoral ministry, or even in a,for those who had recently
professed faith in Christ, andthat Peter was laying down
certain truths, and if that'sthe case, then it's a wonderful
opportunity for people who arenot just new to the thing to be
reminded of the basics.
Opportunity for people who arenot just new to the thing to be
(03:26):
reminded of the basics, and it'sone of my mantras now.
I think over the years inpastoral ministry that you know
what we want to do is try and dothe basics well.
Most of the time which is truewith a golf swing and basically
true with most things, or truewith staying married for a long
time Do the basics.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well yeah, what's jumped out to you in the three,
four days you've been here, asyou've interacted with
missionaries and leaders here inAustralia?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think, first of all , I was really unaware of the
ethos of the thing.
I mean, I had to look up CMS tofind out what it was, and even
when I was told what it was, Ididn't really get it.
I'm a bit slow, but since I gothere, and first of all in the
dining room, I saw the picturesof these families and as I began
(04:14):
to walk along I said, oh, thesepeople are everywhere in the
world and some of them have comehere and the rest are going
about their business, and thesefolks have committed to a
lifetime in relationship to this.
That is the first thing thathas struck me, that this is a
long-haul journey.
American missionaries it seemsto me in a way today that was
(04:38):
not true in an earlier day,partly, I think, because of
resources are able to come andgo from places on the mission
field with not constantregularity, but in a way that
I'm not sure is particularlyconducive to the task.
I mean, when I came from as amissionary, from Scotland to
(05:01):
America, from Scotland toAmerica I determined that I
would not go home for at leastthree years for that very reason
, so that I could try, as itwere, to get my feet under the
table to get a sense of where Iwas and make my early mistakes
and be punished for them withoutsaying, well, I'm just going to
(05:23):
go home and I'm gonna leavethis all behind.
And I think that is the thingthat has come out most forcibly
that the idea of this is along-term commitment in order to
understand where we are, thelanguage in what we're doing,
and so on, which, of course, isa different strategy from what
is taking place in some parts ofthe world where resourceful
churches in the West or even inparts of the world where
(05:43):
resourceful churches in the Westor even in parts of the East,
are seeking to go into thoseplaces, find indigenous people
and train those indigenouspeople, give them everything
that we can give them to enablethem to function without having
to do all this cross-culturalwork for them.
(06:06):
You know, somebody who lives inIndonesia and has grown up there
understands the language,understands those things, and
I'm sure that the position ofthese folks who are there for
the long haul, obviously mustmean that they are there to work
themselves out of a job.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But they can't work themselves out until they've
worked themselves in yeah.
And so I'm very challenged bythat.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Is it right?
Your initial contact withSydney was through John
Woodhouse.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yes, I think so.
I mean, I've been in Sydneybefore, but never to do ministry
in Sydney before, but never todo ministry.
I had been in Melbourne maybe35 years ago to speak at the
Belgrave Heights Convention, andI had been up in Brisbane with
Gary Miller a few years agoalong with Christopher Ashe.
(06:58):
But what happened was one of mycolleagues said why don't you
try and do first Samuel?
And I said, well, I, I don'twant to do for Samuel because I
can't work out the chronology.
Yeah, and they said, well, I'msure you will if you start.
And so, nudged by that, I, Iwas, uh, I, I began, and I was
(07:18):
actually talking to ChristopherAsh on the phone and he said to
me do you have Woodhouse on 1Samuel?
And I said no.
He said then get it.
So I got it, and then I was,and you knew what to do.
Yeah, then I knew what to do andI made contact with John and I
(07:40):
told him what I was doing andthen he and Moya in COVID, you
see then began to listen to thelive stream of our service when
I was speaking to an emptyauditorium.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And then he would send me a note and say last
Sunday was, you know,particularly helpful?
And I would send a note backand say, well, of course it was.
It was largely your material.
So he, yeah, I mean that kindof you know as a pastor when you
are attempting something ofthat magnitude.
(08:17):
And I kept going, went rightthrough second Samuel as well,
and the joke is that he held myhand through it all and then
that was when I had invited himto come so that my people could
see the person behind the personthat you kept quoting for two
years.
Yes, exactly, Exactly and ofcourse I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I watched those talks that he gave at the pastor's
conference in Cleveland and theywere masterful.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh, yes, they were spellbinding.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
On two kings yes on second kings.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
God has really given him a particular ability with
that Old Testament.
I mean, he's just a very, verygood communicator, but with that
Old Testament narrative and theway he sees it, standing far
enough back from it to get thebroad parameters and the
elements in it, is really quitegood.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Now I was chatting with John and he told me,
dominic, you must go and listento one of Alistair's
presentations Hanging On whenyou Feel Like Giving Up, and I
mean actually that was on 1Peter 5.
And I found it super helpful.
I mean, you were actually itwas a conference for pastors and
(09:31):
you were super vulnerable aboutactually there have been times
over the 40 years when I feltlike running away.
Tell us some of that and whatyou did to keep going.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, if I remember correctly as well, that was one
of those occasions when theconference assigns you a subject
you know, and so then I have tosay to myself, well, what am I
going to do with that?
And in a context like that, ifyou're going to take it
(10:02):
seriously, as one must, then itforces you to think a number of
those things out that you mightnot have actually.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
you might have intuitively had in the back of
your mind, but not force it.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, and then they come to the fore, and then you
find yourself saying, well, whatdid I do in that context?
And I think just theshepherdology of 1 Peter,
especially the vulnerability ofPeter himself, who knows that
(10:36):
he's put his foot in his mouthand taken it out and put another
foot back in.
And he's volunteered to walk onthe water, nearly drowned
himself.
He was supposed to watch andpray.
He didn't pray, he didn't watch, he was rather boastful about
things, and so in the experienceof all of that in the life of
(10:59):
Peter, he entered intodimensions, I think, of
spiritual grace that would nothave been his to enjoy were it
not for the fact that he was theperson that he was, if you like
.
You know he brought a lot ofthat on himself and I think I
can identify with that.
You know, when I began inAmerica, I was 31.
(11:21):
And you know, you're young andyou tend to think that you can
accomplish more in a year thanyou actually can.
You don't realize that you canaccomplish far more in five
years if you'll just be steady.
And that sort of impatience canlead to all kinds of things.
That, I think, is where notonly the exhortation of
(11:44):
Scripture but the example andpattern of other people has been
wonderfully helpful.
And I've realized over time,when you stay on the horse long
enough, that people will expectyou to know some of those
answers to the questions and theidea of dealing with the things
in 1 Peter 5, of course, thereality of facing up to anxiety.
(12:09):
Don't be anxious about anything, we were told.
And then Peter says that youshould cast your anxiety upon
the Lord.
But he was there when Jesus toldhim, said why are you worrying?
And the rest of the guys, aboutfood and clothes?
Don't you realize that yourheavenly father, you know,
provides in every way?
(12:30):
That was a lesson he had tolearn, which he then was able to
pass on.
And the idea of adversity, youknow be careful, be alert,
there's a lion around.
That must have cost Peter towrite about as well, because
again he thought no, he would beable to handle it, even if the
rest couldn't handle it.
And of course he came down likea pack of cards, and I think
(12:52):
the very fact of thatrestoration and the usefulness
that God still had in store forhim is just wonderfully helpful.
I think personality comes intoit a lot as well.
Some people are fairlymelancholic by way of
(13:15):
personality, the way they'reconfigured.
I'm not.
My danger would be ininsensitivity rather than
oversensitivity.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I think Really.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think so that I could be dismissive of things
that I ought to be paying moreattention to.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean just digging into some of these
things in one Peter dismissiveof things that I ought to be
paying more attention to.
Yeah, yeah, I mean just digginginto some of these things in
one.
Peter, how's God taught youhumility?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, Well, he hasn't , but he still is, and I could
try and answer that in a numberof ways.
First of all, I'm born inScotland.
You know, Scottish boys andgirls in my era were never being
(14:03):
pumped up.
They never.
You know, your father nevertold you you're the finest boy
in town, or your mother told youthis or that they didn't come
to all of your football matchesand things like that.
It was a very different worldand in that world I lived and I
recounted just the other day astory that I've often mentioned,
(14:23):
where, as a small boy with myfather, I go into a store to get
sweets because he's taking meto an event with a choir and he
said that I could have sweets toeat and in the shop there must
have been people waiting to beserved adults and I went in as a
(14:47):
small boy, maybe eight or nine,I don't know.
The people in there must havesaid something like, well,
you're a fine looking wee boy,or, you know, your bro cream is
nice on your head.
Who knows what they said, butthey must have said something,
because the lady behind thecounter and it's the days when
they weighed out the stuff andput it in a bag and twisted it,
(15:10):
and when she handed it over thecounter to me she said Sonny,
flattery is like perfume Sniffit, Don't swallow it.
And I've never forgotten thatit was such a strange encounter.
And she didn't say it to mebecause I was precocious or
anything.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
You hadn't done anything, I hadn't done anything
.
You hadn't said a word.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Nothing, nothing.
But she had observed it and shegave me a word.
Yeah, she gave me a word thathas followed me all the way
through my life.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And then you know the gift of….
Don't believe your ownpublicity, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And just don't take yourself too seriously.
There's a wonderful encounterin the Reagan Library.
Did I mention that in the talk?
Yeah, I went to the ReaganLibrary in Simi Valley.
I had an afternoon free and Iwent and I was listening on the
earphones to the.
You know, you go around thelibrary and in the makeup of the
(16:09):
Oval Office, it's Reagan who'sspeaking in the earphones and
he's describing the library.
And in the makeup of the OvalOffice, it's Reagan who's
speaking in the earphones andhe's describing the office.
And he says a number of things.
And at one point he says Inever regarded this as my office
, I regarded it as the office ofthe people, so much so.
He said that when I was workingin this office I never removed
(16:30):
my suit coat, I never removed myjacket.
And then there's a pause and hesays you see, you can take the
job seriously without takingyourself too seriously.
And I said oh, that's on thetest right there.
That's on the test Because inpastoral ministry you start to
take yourself too seriouslyrather than the awesomeness of
(16:53):
the task that you've beenentrusted with.
There's danger written all overthat.
Hopefully, I've been helpedfirst by my wife, then by my
children, and feeling very muchthe weight of the people around
me who have invested so muchinto my life.
And feeling very much theweight of the people around me
(17:16):
who have invested so much intomy life and being aware, for
example, of the end for Uzziah,who began so wonderfully well.
He was a whiz kid and he metregularly with Zechariah who was
schooling him in the things ofthe Lord.
But somewhere along the line hemust have decided I don't need
Zachariah anymore.
And then, of course, thechronicler says he was
(17:39):
gloriously helped until hebecame strong.
And when he became strong hegrew proud to his own
destruction.
And in watching my peers youlook at the pastors of big
churches in the States and wethink, wow, yeah, and that's
what I was about to say that inwatching my peers over the 40
(18:00):
years in the States, I would saythat every major pastoral
collapse can be traced to onething, and that is just to pride
, Pride.
The rules no longer apply.
I have transcended this orwhatever that's.
I have a Vespa, I have Vespascooter and because I like those
(18:24):
Italian scooters and when thesun shines like this, if it was
here I could ride it up the hill.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
But when I I was talking to William Taylor a
couple of weeks ago we werewalking back to the car and he
said you know, the privilege Ihave as the rector of St Helens,
london is I have a drainpipe.
And I said what he said.
You know, I ride my pushbikeacross London and it's kind of
(18:49):
known amongst the St Helenscommunity that William padlocks
his pushbike to that drain.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That helps with humility as well.
It does, doesn't it?
That helps with humility.
Yeah, I don't have a parkingspot.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
No.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't have a place.
I've got to find a place formyself.
But when I ride the scooter now, at the age of 72, I speak out
loud to myself, especially whengoing around tight bends.
I say don't be a smart-aleckbag, you can fall off this thing
, and it's like let him whothinks he stands.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Be careful that you don't fall.
Yeah, be careful that you don'tfall.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I mean, it's a horrible thought.
I mean we could start listingnames right now, We'd both burst
into tears and also the prayersof people, prayers of people,
the unknown people who haveprayed to guard this kid and
(19:57):
preserve him, keep him whatever.
We'll never know, really untileternity that how much we were
just dependent on folks whoentered into the throne of grace
on our behalf.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
As you pastor people, do you ever get compassion
fatigue?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, that comes back to my point, you know, because
I'm not particularlycompassionate.
I mean, I am compassionateenough, I am compassionate
enough, but I'm not.
I'm not.
I'm very good at counsellingover a very short period of time
(20:41):
, and maybe that's the answer tothe question that I get
fatigued very quickly and passpeople off to others who have
more of that capacity.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And Mook.
I mean I find I talk tosomebody and I'm quite good at
triaging Right, but then I'm notgood for the long haul and I'm
not called to be good for thelong haul.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, that's good.
That's a better answer thanmine.
So I'm not sure I get fatigued,but I'm not sure I've ever
thought about being fatigued bycompassion.
I mean, I know we all know inministry what it's like to get
the phone call and to discoverthat the boy has just overdosed
(21:23):
and his parents are devastated.
and then you enter into thatwhole world and by the time you
finally come out post-funeral,yeah, you're probably fatigued
then, and often in pastoralministry then, and often in
pastoral ministry, in fact, inpastoral ministry in a way that
wouldn't be true to hardlyanything else.
You live in a world that takesyou into the depths of despair
(21:43):
and up into the heights ofenjoyment with the arrival of
children, the sharing inmarriages, the seeing people
going, it is an immenseprivilege.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
I mean you get a ringside seatat these major events in
people's lives.
It's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You're stepping down.
After 40 years It'll be 42.
42 years in nine months or so.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, I said that I would keep going till the second
sunday in september.
I chose that because it it isuh the the sunday, uh after
second sunday, after labor day,weekend.
There's a reason for it becauseI began, I began on that sunday
in and so just my sense of adesire for symmetry, I picked
(22:36):
that, but it was arbitrary.
But yeah, it's coming.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
What are your?
I mean there's an anxiety oftransition.
Help take us into that world.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I'm just beginning to .
I've only been there for 22years and I've got anxiety about
that.
Sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, you know, I'm only beginning to enter into
that dimension of it, becausethe announcing of it was hard to
say I'm going to do this.
But once I said it, then I saidokay, so I said it.
But then within about four orfive weeks I began to say yeah,
but what are the implications ofwhat you've just said and what
(23:17):
is that actually going to mean?
Now?
And the the um, the unnervingaspect of it is that I don't
know anything else other thanwhat I've been doing for all
these years, that my life hasbeen completely regulated by the
privileged responsibility ofSunday by Sunday, bible teaching
and the fact that our radioprogram and everything that goes
(23:41):
along with that continues,apart from the church.
That's still not the same, andso I'm up for all kinds of
suggestions and advice, and I'vebeen asking people who have
done this, and some of myfriends have written quite
helpfully regarding it.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
What sort of advice have you got?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Give yourself an emotional buffer from that day
to whenever it is you thinkyou're, you know.
Don't try and bridge this gapin the immediacy of things.
Give yourself a time to let thedust settle, both for you and
(24:26):
for your wife, and for yourchurch congregation and so on.
Because it raises the questionwhat are you going to do the
following Sunday?
I mean, are you just going togo back and sit in the pew?
Are you going to go to one ofthe church plants, so that you
don't have to answer all thequestions?
I don't know the answers tothose questions yet, but the
(24:46):
kind of advice that I've beengiven is just along those lines
Don't try and launch into someidea that has been whirling
around.
Just hold your fire.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, as you speak to young men starting out in the
ministry.
What are the things you want tosay to them?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, I want to say to them what I say to myself
continually Isaiah, what is it?
66, 2.
This is the one to whom I willlook, says the Lord, he who is
humble and contrite in spiritand and trembles at my word um,
(25:36):
I, I really feel I'm so, I'm soafraid of the, the rising um
pride within my own heart that I, I want to guard against that
always, and so I I want to tryand safeguard younger guys first
of all in there Along with that, I want to say to them the same
(25:59):
things again that I say tomyself You'll think you'll
overestimate what you canaccomplish in a year and you'll
underestimate what you canaccomplish in five, because
you're young and so you feel asense of I've got to push on.
You know, life is going by,which it is going by, but only
at the rate of 60 seconds aminute.
(26:19):
So just you know, don't getcarried away there.
I want to say to them make surethat you are doing two things
that you are loving the peopleand that you're teaching the
Bible, that the gift that Godhas given you will be an
expression of your love.
Don't let the congregation tellyou how they want you to love
(26:44):
them.
In other words, mrs Reynoldswould like you to come over for
a morning coffee.
Mr Jenkins thinks that it wouldbe very good if you did a Bible
study at his office and somebodyelse.
They would like to have youevery Friday night and so on.
You're going to have to guardyourself from all that kind of
thing.
You'll be misunderstood.
But if you can show the peoplethat your love language, if you
(27:08):
like, for them, is to study thescriptures, to perform the
sacraments, to fulfill the roleof pastoral ministry and be
secured in it by being givenenough time to do an adequate
job in the Word, then in thelong run everybody will be
(27:29):
happier than if you were toexceed to many of their earlier
requests and at the same time,then, 2 Timothy 4.5, keep your
head, endure hardship, do thework of an evangelist, discharge
all the duties of your ministry.
And if the person says, well,what should I do on Tuesday, I
(27:50):
say 2 Timothy 4.5 2.
Timothy 4.5.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the following Tuesday, and the following
Thursday and for the rest ofyour life, because that was Paul
to Timothy right.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
You know, and it's wonderful because it's basics.
It's basics and young guys aretempted, especially with the
world we live in now with socialmedia.
This person's got an angle onthis and another one has an
angle on that and you get yourhead spun very, very quickly.
(28:21):
And if you have absoluteconfidence in the sufficiency
and authority of the scripturesand you give yourself to be a
servant of the word and youlearn your craft and you learn
by example, by followingpatterns, by choosing the people
(28:43):
that you can most identify withbecause you run down similar
lines to them, then all of thosethings will prove helpful in
the end.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Anxieties and dealing with anxiety in ministry.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, well, again, this again has come back to what
I've been saying earlier.
I don't want to be undulyself-deprecating, but I don't
think I am a particularlyanxious person, and so I don't
(29:26):
know whether that is justtemperamentally or whether I've
steeled myself against that, orwhether I'm kidding myself,
which is also possible.
But what do we want to beanxious about in ministry?
Anxious about our performance?
That's pride.
Anxious that we can't meet theneeds of the people?
(29:49):
Of course we can't meet theneeds of the people.
Of course we can't meet theneeds of the people.
Anxious, I don't know, aboutthe budget?
Yeah, I guess you see.
Again, anxious about the budget?
That has never once occurred tome, but that's maybe just
because I'm in a privilegedposition or I should be taking
(30:10):
more interest in it yeah, no, Ihave to be honest in answering
the questions.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You've been here in Australia and you've talked
about, if you like, challengesthat you've received from even
just looking around here andcorrections perhaps you'll take
back to the States.
What corrections have you gotfor us?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, I'd be very loathe to come up with any kind
of corrections yet.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Maybe by the end of the week, if we talk again.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
No, I think it would be presumptuous of me to come
into this context and say I havebeen all that I've known of
evangelical Anglicanism in theSydney diocese and beyond is
fundamentally helpful.
I mean at a distance, mooreCollege I mean I hadn't really
(31:07):
focused on the fact that MarcusLone was once the principal of
Moore College.
I mean I hadn't really focusedon the fight.
Marcus Lone was once theprincipal of Moore College.
I didn't know that TC Hammondwas.
He'd read his book.
Yeah, I'd read his book but Ididn't know he was here.
It's no surprise to me that hewas and was able to stabilize
things.
Also.
The Jensen brothers and TwoWays to Live and all of those
(31:29):
things, St Matthias Press, youknow an ocean away.
The Jensen brothers and twoways to live and all of those
things, St Matthias Press, youknow an ocean away.
I would look to here for helpand for counsel and for,
especially in evangelism, afreshness of approach that is
(31:49):
not American.
And so to think of what I mightsay by way of warning, I guess
it'd be the same warning, that'sa don't let's get ahead of our
skis.
You know God is good to us sofar.
Let's make sure that we leavethe same legacy that others have
left to us.
Thanks very much for left to us.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Thanks very much for talking to us.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
My privilege.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Alistair Begg has been my guest.
He is the senior pastor foranother nine months of Parkside
Church in Cleveland, ohio.
My name's Dominic Steele andwe'll be back with you on the
Pastor's Heart next Tuesdayafternoon.
It is the pastor's heart, and Dominic Steele and
Alistair Begg is with us fromParkside Church in Cleveland,
Ohio.
We're on location in Katoombain the Blue Mountains, to the
west of Sydney, where the ChurchMissionary Society Summer
School is taking place andAlistair is the keynote speaker
for this week-long convention.
We're in the Convention CentreBookshop in a break between
(00:28):
sessions.
There's about 3,000 delegateshere thinking and praying about
global mission and Alistair isteaching on 1 Peter.
3,000, that's actually the samesize as Alistair's regular
Sunday church attendance.
In the 40 years that he's beensenior pastor.
Parkside Church has grown fromaround 300 to now around 3,000.
(00:50):
Alistair, thanks for coming andtalking to us.
You're teaching on 1 Peter andI'm just thinking the pastor's
heart and even the missionary'sheart, of suffering grief in all
sorts of trials, beingstrangers and aliens in the
world, and specificallysuffering for being Christian.
What's been your heart for thepeople of this missionary
(01:14):
society as you've come toprepare these talks?
Because you've been thinkingfreshly about 1 Peter for this
conference.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, first of all, coming here is an experience in
itself, because I only knew ofit by report, and I would say
that actually, just since I gothere on Friday, I've had a far
greater appreciation of what isgoing on, who is here, what they
(01:42):
represent, and it has helped me, since the first address, at
least begin to moderate mypoints of application.
The principles of 1 Peter,though, in terms of, as you say,
suffering or a cross that leadsto a crown Peter dealing with
an environment that isessentially a pre-Christian
(02:04):
environment, where there is agreat pushback against the
claims of Jesus.
We're living in essentially apost-Christian environment.
Many of these people definitelyare in a pluralistic context,
and so part of what Peter ishelping us to do and this is why
I began at the end, in the 12thverse of chapter 5, where he
(02:24):
actually tells us what he wasdoing in his letter I've written
to you to make sure you knowthat this is the true grace of
God.
Stand firm in it.
(03:05):
And I found increasingly thatthe role that one is given in
pastoral ministry, or even in a,for those who had recently
professed faith in Christ, andthat Peter was laying down
certain truths, and if that'sthe case, then it's a wonderful
opportunity for people who arenot just new to the thing to be
reminded of the basics.
Opportunity for people who arenot just new to the thing to be
(03:26):
reminded of the basics, and it'sone of my mantras now.
I think over the years inpastoral ministry that you know
what we want to do is try and dothe basics well.
Most of the time which is truewith a golf swing and basically
true with most things, or truewith staying married for a long
time Do the basics.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well yeah, what's jumped out to you in the three,
four days you've been here, asyou've interacted with
missionaries and leaders here inAustralia?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think, first of all , I was really unaware of the
ethos of the thing.
I mean, I had to look up CMS tofind out what it was, and even
when I was told what it was, Ididn't really get it.
I'm a bit slow, but since I gothere, and first of all in the
dining room, I saw the picturesof these families and as I began
(04:14):
to walk along I said, oh, thesepeople are everywhere in the
world and some of them have comehere and the rest are going
about their business, and thesefolks have committed to a
lifetime in relationship to this.
That is the first thing thathas struck me, that this is a
long-haul journey.
American missionaries it seemsto me in a way today that was
(04:38):
not true in an earlier day,partly, I think, because of
resources are able to come andgo from places on the mission
field with not constantregularity, but in a way that
I'm not sure is particularlyconducive to the task.
I mean, when I came from as amissionary, from Scotland to
(05:01):
America, from Scotland toAmerica I determined that I
would not go home for at leastthree years for that very reason
, so that I could try, as itwere, to get my feet under the
table to get a sense of where Iwas and make my early mistakes
and be punished for them withoutsaying, well, I'm just going to
(05:23):
go home and I'm gonna leavethis all behind.
And I think that is the thingthat has come out most forcibly
that the idea of this is along-term commitment in order to
understand where we are, thelanguage in what we're doing,
and so on, which, of course, isa different strategy from what
is taking place in some parts ofthe world where resourceful
churches in the West or even inparts of the world where
(05:43):
resourceful churches in the Westor even in parts of the East,
are seeking to go into thoseplaces, find indigenous people
and train those indigenouspeople, give them everything
that we can give them to enablethem to function without having
to do all this cross-culturalwork for them.
(06:06):
You know, somebody who lives inIndonesia and has grown up there
understands the language,understands those things, and
I'm sure that the position ofthese folks who are there for
the long haul, obviously mustmean that they are there to work
themselves out of a job.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But they can't work themselves out until they've
worked themselves in yeah.
And so I'm very challenged bythat.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Is it right?
Your initial contact withSydney was through John
Woodhouse.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yes, I think so.
I mean, I've been in Sydneybefore, but never to do ministry
in Sydney before, but never todo ministry.
I had been in Melbourne maybe35 years ago to speak at the
Belgrave Heights Convention, andI had been up in Brisbane with
Gary Miller a few years agoalong with Christopher Ashe.
(06:58):
But what happened was one of mycolleagues said why don't you
try and do first Samuel?
And I said, well, I, I don'twant to do for Samuel because I
can't work out the chronology.
Yeah, and they said, well, I'msure you will if you start.
And so, nudged by that, I, Iwas, uh, I, I began, and I was
(07:18):
actually talking to ChristopherAsh on the phone and he said to
me do you have Woodhouse on 1Samuel?
And I said no.
He said then get it.
So I got it, and then I was,and you knew what to do.
Yeah, then I knew what to do andI made contact with John and I
(07:40):
told him what I was doing andthen he and Moya in COVID, you
see then began to listen to thelive stream of our service when
I was speaking to an emptyauditorium.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And then he would send me a note and say last
Sunday was, you know,particularly helpful?
And I would send a note backand say, well, of course it was.
It was largely your material.
So he, yeah, I mean that kindof you know as a pastor when you
are attempting something ofthat magnitude.
(08:17):
And I kept going, went rightthrough second Samuel as well,
and the joke is that he held myhand through it all and then
that was when I had invited himto come so that my people could
see the person behind the personthat you kept quoting for two
years.
Yes, exactly, Exactly and ofcourse I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I watched those talks that he gave at the pastor's
conference in Cleveland and theywere masterful.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh, yes, they were spellbinding.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
On two kings yes on second kings.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
God has really given him a particular ability with
that Old Testament.
I mean, he's just a very, verygood communicator, but with that
Old Testament narrative and theway he sees it, standing far
enough back from it to get thebroad parameters and the
elements in it, is really quitegood.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Now I was chatting with John and he told me,
dominic, you must go and listento one of Alistair's
presentations Hanging On whenyou Feel Like Giving Up, and I
mean actually that was on 1Peter 5.
And I found it super helpful.
I mean, you were actually itwas a conference for pastors and
(09:31):
you were super vulnerable aboutactually there have been times
over the 40 years when I feltlike running away.
Tell us some of that and whatyou did to keep going.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, if I remember correctly as well, that was one
of those occasions when theconference assigns you a subject
you know, and so then I have tosay to myself, well, what am I
going to do with that?
And in a context like that, ifyou're going to take it
(10:02):
seriously, as one must, then itforces you to think a number of
those things out that you mightnot have actually.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
you might have intuitively had in the back of
your mind, but not force it.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, and then they come to the fore, and then you
find yourself saying, well, whatdid I do in that context?
And I think just theshepherdology of 1 Peter,
especially the vulnerability ofPeter himself, who knows that
(10:36):
he's put his foot in his mouthand taken it out and put another
foot back in.
And he's volunteered to walk onthe water, nearly drowned
himself.
He was supposed to watch andpray.
He didn't pray, he didn't watch, he was rather boastful about
things, and so in the experienceof all of that in the life of
(10:59):
Peter, he entered intodimensions, I think, of
spiritual grace that would nothave been his to enjoy were it
not for the fact that he was theperson that he was, if you like
.
You know he brought a lot ofthat on himself and I think I
can identify with that.
You know, when I began inAmerica, I was 31.
(11:21):
And you know, you're young andyou tend to think that you can
accomplish more in a year thanyou actually can.
You don't realize that you canaccomplish far more in five
years if you'll just be steady.
And that sort of impatience canlead to all kinds of things.
That, I think, is where notonly the exhortation of
(11:44):
Scripture but the example andpattern of other people has been
wonderfully helpful.
And I've realized over time,when you stay on the horse long
enough, that people will expectyou to know some of those
answers to the questions and theidea of dealing with the things
in 1 Peter 5, of course, thereality of facing up to anxiety.
(12:09):
Don't be anxious about anything, we were told.
And then Peter says that youshould cast your anxiety upon
the Lord.
But he was there when Jesus toldhim, said why are you worrying?
And the rest of the guys, aboutfood and clothes?
Don't you realize that yourheavenly father, you know,
provides in every way?
(12:30):
That was a lesson he had tolearn, which he then was able to
pass on.
And the idea of adversity, youknow be careful, be alert,
there's a lion around.
That must have cost Peter towrite about as well, because
again he thought no, he would beable to handle it, even if the
rest couldn't handle it.
And of course he came down likea pack of cards, and I think
(12:52):
the very fact of thatrestoration and the usefulness
that God still had in store forhim is just wonderfully helpful.
I think personality comes intoit a lot as well.
Some people are fairlymelancholic by way of
(13:15):
personality, the way they'reconfigured.
I'm not.
My danger would be ininsensitivity rather than
oversensitivity.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I think Really.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think so that I could be dismissive of things
that I ought to be paying moreattention to.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean just digging into some of these
things in one Peter dismissiveof things that I ought to be
paying more attention to.
Yeah, yeah, I mean just digginginto some of these things in
one.
Peter, how's God taught youhumility?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, Well, he hasn't , but he still is, and I could
try and answer that in a numberof ways.
First of all, I'm born inScotland.
You know, Scottish boys andgirls in my era were never being
(14:03):
pumped up.
They never.
You know, your father nevertold you you're the finest boy
in town, or your mother told youthis or that they didn't come
to all of your football matchesand things like that.
It was a very different worldand in that world I lived and I
recounted just the other day astory that I've often mentioned,
(14:23):
where, as a small boy with myfather, I go into a store to get
sweets because he's taking meto an event with a choir and he
said that I could have sweets toeat and in the shop there must
have been people waiting to beserved adults and I went in as a
(14:47):
small boy, maybe eight or nine,I don't know.
The people in there must havesaid something like, well,
you're a fine looking wee boy,or, you know, your bro cream is
nice on your head.
Who knows what they said, butthey must have said something,
because the lady behind thecounter and it's the days when
they weighed out the stuff andput it in a bag and twisted it,
(15:10):
and when she handed it over thecounter to me she said Sonny,
flattery is like perfume Sniffit, Don't swallow it.
And I've never forgotten thatit was such a strange encounter.
And she didn't say it to mebecause I was precocious or
anything.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
You hadn't done anything, I hadn't done anything
.
You hadn't said a word.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Nothing, nothing.
But she had observed it and shegave me a word.
Yeah, she gave me a word thathas followed me all the way
through my life.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And then you know the gift of….
Don't believe your ownpublicity, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And just don't take yourself too seriously.
There's a wonderful encounterin the Reagan Library.
Did I mention that in the talk?
Yeah, I went to the ReaganLibrary in Simi Valley.
I had an afternoon free and Iwent and I was listening on the
earphones to the.
You know, you go around thelibrary and in the makeup of the
(16:09):
Oval Office, it's Reagan who'sspeaking in the earphones and
he's describing the library.
And in the makeup of the OvalOffice, it's Reagan who's
speaking in the earphones andhe's describing the office.
And he says a number of things.
And at one point he says Inever regarded this as my office
, I regarded it as the office ofthe people, so much so.
He said that when I was workingin this office I never removed
(16:30):
my suit coat, I never removed myjacket.
And then there's a pause and hesays you see, you can take the
job seriously without takingyourself too seriously.
And I said oh, that's on thetest right there.
That's on the test Because inpastoral ministry you start to
take yourself too seriouslyrather than the awesomeness of
(16:53):
the task that you've beenentrusted with.
There's danger written all overthat.
Hopefully, I've been helpedfirst by my wife, then by my
children, and feeling very muchthe weight of the people around
me who have invested so muchinto my life.
And feeling very much theweight of the people around me
(17:16):
who have invested so much intomy life and being aware, for
example, of the end for Uzziah,who began so wonderfully well.
He was a whiz kid and he metregularly with Zechariah who was
schooling him in the things ofthe Lord.
But somewhere along the line hemust have decided I don't need
Zachariah anymore.
And then, of course, thechronicler says he was
(17:39):
gloriously helped until hebecame strong.
And when he became strong hegrew proud to his own
destruction.
And in watching my peers youlook at the pastors of big
churches in the States and wethink, wow, yeah, and that's
what I was about to say that inwatching my peers over the 40
(18:00):
years in the States, I would saythat every major pastoral
collapse can be traced to onething, and that is just to pride
, Pride.
The rules no longer apply.
I have transcended this orwhatever that's.
I have a Vespa, I have Vespascooter and because I like those
(18:24):
Italian scooters and when thesun shines like this, if it was
here I could ride it up the hill.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
But when I I was talking to William Taylor a
couple of weeks ago we werewalking back to the car and he
said you know, the privilege Ihave as the rector of St Helens,
london is I have a drainpipe.
And I said what he said.
You know, I ride my pushbikeacross London and it's kind of
(18:49):
known amongst the St Helenscommunity that William padlocks
his pushbike to that drain.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That helps with humility as well.
It does, doesn't it?
That helps with humility.
Yeah, I don't have a parkingspot.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
No.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't have a place.
I've got to find a place formyself.
But when I ride the scooter now, at the age of 72, I speak out
loud to myself, especially whengoing around tight bends.
I say don't be a smart-aleckbag, you can fall off this thing
, and it's like let him whothinks he stands.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Be careful that you don't fall.
Yeah, be careful that you don'tfall.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I mean, it's a horrible thought.
I mean we could start listingnames right now, We'd both burst
into tears and also the prayersof people, prayers of people,
the unknown people who haveprayed to guard this kid and
(19:57):
preserve him, keep him whatever.
We'll never know, really untileternity that how much we were
just dependent on folks whoentered into the throne of grace
on our behalf.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
As you pastor people, do you ever get compassion
fatigue?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, that comes back to my point, you know, because
I'm not particularlycompassionate.
I mean, I am compassionateenough, I am compassionate
enough, but I'm not.
I'm not.
I'm very good at counsellingover a very short period of time
(20:41):
, and maybe that's the answer tothe question that I get
fatigued very quickly and passpeople off to others who have
more of that capacity.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And Mook.
I mean I find I talk tosomebody and I'm quite good at
triaging Right, but then I'm notgood for the long haul and I'm
not called to be good for thelong haul.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, that's good.
That's a better answer thanmine.
So I'm not sure I get fatigued,but I'm not sure I've ever
thought about being fatigued bycompassion.
I mean, I know we all know inministry what it's like to get
the phone call and to discoverthat the boy has just overdosed
(21:23):
and his parents are devastated.
and then you enter into thatwhole world and by the time you
finally come out post-funeral,yeah, you're probably fatigued
then, and often in pastoralministry then, and often in
pastoral ministry, in fact, inpastoral ministry in a way that
wouldn't be true to hardlyanything else.
You live in a world that takesyou into the depths of despair
(21:43):
and up into the heights ofenjoyment with the arrival of
children, the sharing inmarriages, the seeing people
going, it is an immenseprivilege.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
I mean you get a ringside seatat these major events in
people's lives.
It's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You're stepping down.
After 40 years It'll be 42.
42 years in nine months or so.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, I said that I would keep going till the second
sunday in september.
I chose that because it it isuh the the sunday, uh after
second sunday, after labor day,weekend.
There's a reason for it becauseI began, I began on that sunday
in and so just my sense of adesire for symmetry, I picked
(22:36):
that, but it was arbitrary.
But yeah, it's coming.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
What are your?
I mean there's an anxiety oftransition.
Help take us into that world.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I'm just beginning to .
I've only been there for 22years and I've got anxiety about
that.
Sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, you know, I'm only beginning to enter into
that dimension of it, becausethe announcing of it was hard to
say I'm going to do this.
But once I said it, then I saidokay, so I said it.
But then within about four orfive weeks I began to say yeah,
but what are the implications ofwhat you've just said and what
(23:17):
is that actually going to mean?
Now?
And the the um, the unnervingaspect of it is that I don't
know anything else other thanwhat I've been doing for all
these years, that my life hasbeen completely regulated by the
privileged responsibility ofSunday by Sunday, bible teaching
and the fact that our radioprogram and everything that goes
(23:41):
along with that continues,apart from the church.
That's still not the same, andso I'm up for all kinds of
suggestions and advice, and I'vebeen asking people who have
done this, and some of myfriends have written quite
helpfully regarding it.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
What sort of advice have you got?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Give yourself an emotional buffer from that day
to whenever it is you thinkyou're, you know.
Don't try and bridge this gapin the immediacy of things.
Give yourself a time to let thedust settle, both for you and
(24:26):
for your wife, and for yourchurch congregation and so on.
Because it raises the questionwhat are you going to do the
following Sunday?
I mean, are you just going togo back and sit in the pew?
Are you going to go to one ofthe church plants, so that you
don't have to answer all thequestions?
I don't know the answers tothose questions yet, but the
(24:46):
kind of advice that I've beengiven is just along those lines
Don't try and launch into someidea that has been whirling
around.
Just hold your fire.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, as you speak to young men starting out in the
ministry.
What are the things you want tosay to them?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Well, I want to say to them what I say to myself
continually Isaiah, what is it?
66, 2.
This is the one to whom I willlook, says the Lord, he who is
humble and contrite in spiritand and trembles at my word um,
(25:36):
I, I really feel I'm so, I'm soafraid of the, the rising um
pride within my own heart that I, I want to guard against that
always, and so I I want to tryand safeguard younger guys first
of all in there Along with that, I want to say to them the same
(25:59):
things again that I say tomyself You'll think you'll
overestimate what you canaccomplish in a year and you'll
underestimate what you canaccomplish in five, because
you're young and so you feel asense of I've got to push on.
You know, life is going by,which it is going by, but only
at the rate of 60 seconds aminute.
(26:19):
So just you know, don't getcarried away there.
I want to say to them make surethat you are doing two things
that you are loving the peopleand that you're teaching the
Bible, that the gift that Godhas given you will be an
expression of your love.
Don't let the congregation tellyou how they want you to love
(26:44):
them.
In other words, mrs Reynoldswould like you to come over for
a morning coffee.
Mr Jenkins thinks that it wouldbe very good if you did a Bible
study at his office and somebodyelse.
They would like to have youevery Friday night and so on.
You're going to have to guardyourself from all that kind of
thing.
You'll be misunderstood.
But if you can show the peoplethat your love language, if you
(27:08):
like, for them, is to study thescriptures, to perform the
sacraments, to fulfill the roleof pastoral ministry and be
secured in it by being givenenough time to do an adequate
job in the Word, then in thelong run everybody will be
(27:29):
happier than if you were toexceed to many of their earlier
requests and at the same time,then, 2 Timothy 4.5, keep your
head, endure hardship, do thework of an evangelist, discharge
all the duties of your ministry.
And if the person says, well,what should I do on Tuesday, I
(27:50):
say 2 Timothy 4.5 2.
Timothy 4.5.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the following Tuesday, and the following
Thursday and for the rest ofyour life, because that was Paul
to Timothy right.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
You know, and it's wonderful because it's basics.
It's basics and young guys aretempted, especially with the
world we live in now with socialmedia.
This person's got an angle onthis and another one has an
angle on that and you get yourhead spun very, very quickly.
(28:21):
And if you have absoluteconfidence in the sufficiency
and authority of the scripturesand you give yourself to be a
servant of the word and youlearn your craft and you learn
by example, by followingpatterns, by choosing the people
(28:43):
that you can most identify withbecause you run down similar
lines to them, then all of thosethings will prove helpful in
the end.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Anxieties and dealing with anxiety in ministry.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, well, again, this again has come back to what
I've been saying earlier.
I don't want to be undulyself-deprecating, but I don't
think I am a particularlyanxious person, and so I don't
(29:26):
know whether that is justtemperamentally or whether I've
steeled myself against that, orwhether I'm kidding myself,
which is also possible.
But what do we want to beanxious about in ministry?
Anxious about our performance?
That's pride.
Anxious that we can't meet theneeds of the people?
(29:49):
Of course we can't meet theneeds of the people.
Of course we can't meet theneeds of the people.
Anxious, I don't know, aboutthe budget?
Yeah, I guess you see.
Again, anxious about the budget?
That has never once occurred tome, but that's maybe just
because I'm in a privilegedposition or I should be taking
(30:10):
more interest in it yeah, no, Ihave to be honest in answering
the questions.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You've been here in Australia and you've talked
about, if you like, challengesthat you've received from even
just looking around here andcorrections perhaps you'll take
back to the States.
What corrections have you gotfor us?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, I'd be very loathe to come up with any kind
of corrections yet.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Maybe by the end of the week, if we talk again.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
No, I think it would be presumptuous of me to come
into this context and say I havebeen all that I've known of
evangelical Anglicanism in theSydney diocese and beyond is
fundamentally helpful.
I mean at a distance, mooreCollege I mean I hadn't really
(31:07):
focused on the fact that MarcusLone was once the principal of
Moore College.
I mean I hadn't really focusedon the fight.
Marcus Lone was once theprincipal of Moore College.
I didn't know that TC Hammondwas.
He'd read his book.
Yeah, I'd read his book but Ididn't know he was here.
It's no surprise to me that hewas and was able to stabilize
things.
Also.
The Jensen brothers and TwoWays to Live and all of those
(31:29):
things, St Matthias Press, youknow an ocean away.
The Jensen brothers and twoways to live and all of those
things, St Matthias Press, youknow an ocean away.
I would look to here for helpand for counsel and for,
especially in evangelism, afreshness of approach that is
(31:49):
not American.
And so to think of what I mightsay by way of warning, I guess
it'd be the same warning, that'sa don't let's get ahead of our
skis.
You know God is good to us sofar.
Let's make sure that we leavethe same legacy that others have
left to us.
Thanks very much for left to us.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Thanks very much for talking to us.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
My privilege.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Alistair Begg has been my guest.
He is the senior pastor foranother nine months of Parkside
Church in Cleveland, ohio.
My name's Dominic Steele andwe'll be back with you on the
Pastor's Heart next Tuesdayafternoon.
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