June 17, 2025 • 31 mins
Andrew Heard says ministries cannot be other than outcome-focused in their work - the question is will those outcomes be good or bad? Conscious or unconscious? Specific or vague?
He addresses critics who confuse having Biblical goals with adopting secular business practices.
Andrew Heard leads the Reach Australia movement, and pastors the influential EV Church on the Central Coast.
• All Christians are goal-driven whether consciously or unconsciously
• Critique often conflate goals with the methods used to pursue them (which is a separate question).
• Paul in 1 Corinthians demonstrates strategic thinking while maintaining gospel integrity
• "Wise master builder" suggests skill and thoughtfulness in ministry, not just faithfulness
• Personal, transformational ministry requires organisation.
• Opposition to large churches and attempting to grow churches creates an impossible task for reaching the world. We need to own the fact that we either need much bigger churches or many more churches, or both.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and the
controversies surroundingpursuing goals and outcomes in
Christian ministry.
Andrew Hurd is our guest.
The Apostle Paul wasgoal-driven at every point in
his ministry.
He took great care in pursuingthe goals that were the most
God-honouring and in using thebest God-appointed means to
(00:30):
achieve those goals.
That's Andrew Heard.
In ministry, we cannot be otherthan goal-driven.
We might be consciouslygoal-driven or unconsciously
goal-driven, but we aregoal-driven.
For us, andrew Heard says, thequestion is is our goal a worthy
one?
And yet I have read, watchedand heard critiques of this kind
(00:52):
of thinking from friends for awhile now.
Sometimes the critique is thathaving goals well, that's a
sellout to the church growthmovement.
Sometimes it's a critique ofbusinessification, applying KPIs
, efficiency models andleadership training from the
secular world.
Andrew Heard is Senior Pastorof the influential EV Church on
the central coast of New SouthWales and leader of the Reach
(01:16):
Australia movement.
Andrew, thanks for coming in.
You have been pushing forchange in the church for a while
now and now you're receivingsome pushback or not just now I
think from the first.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
No, it's.
It's regularly uh peopleraising questions, but helpfully
so I just should say I think, Ithink one of the sharpened your
thinking, necessarily.
So, yeah, I think the one ofthe beautiful things about our
world is that our Christianfellowship together is that
we've got a real honesty and areal nudge back and forward very
(01:51):
helpfully thoughtful engagementin these areas.
It's a great blessing our kindof group of people who wrestle
with these things.
So it's all been good.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I love it.
So what is goal-driven ministryand what's the critique that
you've heard?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, I would call it outcome leadership, so I use
the language of outcome.
But goal-driven ministry is tosay the same thing that if I'm
going to be involved in ministryI need to have an outcome in
mind, a goal to pursue, so bedriven by that goal and seeking
to achieve it.
And the critique.
Well, the critique is that itgets.
(02:27):
I think it gets a little odd,and sometimes the critique
bundles together ideas that Idon't think ought to be held
together, such as goal-driven issometimes understood to include
the means and manner by whichyou pursue it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So if you put under that umbrella Not just the ends
but how I get there, yeah, so wewould call that kind of
combining two different things.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So sometimes people say the whole idea of
outcome-driven leans too muchinto business practice, leans
too much into worldly wisdom.
And it can undoubtedly.
But when you separate the factof having a goal from how you
pursue the goal, then I think,as Christians, we can't be other
than goal-driven, we can't beother than outcome leaders.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, let's just play with that for a minute.
I mean, I think you're sayingwe are goal-driven.
I might have defined it well,or I might not have defined it
well.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I don't think humans can be other than goal-driven.
I think we have a telos builtinto us, a purpose we're made
for achieving ends, and so inChristian ministry, I don't
think it's possible to actuallybe in Christian ministry without
having a goal that you arepursuing, an outcome you're
driven towards.
The problem for us is if that'strue.
The problem for us is if wedon't pay attention to being
(03:49):
outcome driven, we'll be lessself-reflective on what those
outcomes actually are, and so,buried beneath the verbal
expression of what I might betrying to achieve, will be less
God-honouring outcomes that I'mtrying to pursue like to be
liked.
Do you know Right?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So I could have a goal as a pastor to be liked.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I'm never actually going to say that out loud and
it may be buried sufficientlydeeply that it's not even
obvious to me, but you'll see itemerge in terms of the things
we say yes to and the things wesay no to to me, but you'll see
it emerge in terms of the thingswe say yes to and the things we
say no to.
So you might find a particularleader.
The only consistent way to workout why is he saying yes to
that, why is she saying no tothat, is because actually he or
(04:34):
she just wants to be liked bypeople and doesn't want to
offend, doesn't want to hurt.
So I think, one way or another,we have outcomes and goals to
which we're working and the morewe acknowledge that and know
that, the better we're able toactually analyse it together
under the word of God and workout how worthy they are.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So I mean, that sounds obvious to me.
Why is somebody critiquing youon that?
Or are they critiquing you overthe methods?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It seems obvious to me too.
I think what's happening ispeople are perceiving the
language of outcome-driven orgoal-driven to be narrowed down
to very banal kinds of goals oroutcomes, like numbers, purely
and simply so to be outcomeWhereas if I want a disciple who
(05:29):
is rich in their following ofthe Lord Jesus Christ
holistically attempting to serve, love him, that kind of thing.
And there's a whole range ofoutcomes that the scriptures
would call us to have to glorifyGod in the establishment of
people in the faith in a waythat genuinely transforms their
(05:49):
life, such that we buildcommunities of love.
I mean, there's a quicksnapshot of an expression of
what outcome we're after, but ifyou reduce that merely to a
crowd in a building, then thatis inappropriate and poorly
conceived.
So I think what happens ispeople take the idea badly
exercised and bundle all thattogether and say it's wrong,
(06:13):
whereas I'd offer no.
The principle of beingoutcome-driven is not the
problem.
It's what you bundle togetheras the outcome that you're
seeking to pursue.
Paul, the Apostle, is the Lord.
Jesus comes to seek and savethe lost.
There's an outcome Comes toglorify his Father.
These are outcomes, you see,and the Apostle Paul is doing
(06:34):
everything he can 1 Corinthians9, to save as many as possible.
These are all just simplyoutcomes, expressions of ends to
which he's working.
I cannot see how we canconceive of Christian ministry
other than having an end towhich we're working, a goal.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Well, take me to 1 Corinthians 3, because there's
been quite a contention about 1Corinthians 3, and particularly
1 Corinthians 3, verse 10 andwise master builder.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'll read the whole verse and you can speak to it.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
According to God's grace that was given to me, I
have laid a foundation as askilled or wise master builder,
and another builds on it, buteach one is to be careful how he
builds on it.
No one can lay any otherfoundation than what has been
laid.
That foundation is Jesus Christ.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, the question is , what do we do with the word?
It's a compound little phrasethere.
It's sophos architectone.
Yeah from I guess we getarchitect yeah.
Yeah, yeah yeah, and that littlecompound architectone is
properly translated, I thinkmany would say, as master
builder.
It's not just someone whobuilds, but it's the leader,
(07:45):
it's the head builder.
What do you do with the wordSophos in front of it?
Do we translate as wise or asas the East, as skillful?
Well, it depends on how muchattention you pay to the use of
the word sophos through 1.
Corinthians 1-4, or whetherthere's a justification to say
(08:07):
that phrase sophos architectonhas a sufficient cultural
baggage to it in its useselsewhere that as a phrase it
has its own meaning.
Yeah, and I would argue thatthat's the case.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What's the argument against you?
And then what's your argument?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, paul, makes much of the fact that the word
sophos is.
There's a critique and achallenge around what is wisdom,
you see, and the Corinthianshave one view of it, the Greeks
have one view of it.
If you like, have one view ofit.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
if you like, yeah, and Paul comes, I'm being
impressive, I'm doing goodrhetoric, yeah, yeah, yeah,
using good skills and thingslike that.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah with the toga and the kind of great rhetoric
and so on.
And Paul comes in weakness andfear and he presents the gospel
without wise and persuasivewords.
He renounces the idea of thatkind of wisdom.
But when he comes to 1Corinthians 3, verse 10, is he
still using the word sophos wisein the way he's used it all the
(09:05):
way through, or because it'spart of that phrase, sophos
architecton?
Is he picking up the way thatphrase is used, and I think we
need to invite consideration ofthat?
So it's used in Isaiah, it'sused in Philo, these other
places, and in each of thoseoccasions it's used to mean a
(09:25):
skilful builder, not justsomeone who is wise.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
That's the way it's understood Wise in the
Corinthian sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, and so it then opens up whole questions around.
What does Paul mean by comingin weakness?
Does that?
Are we to read him coming inweakness to mean he deliberately
chooses ministry?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
practices that are feeble and ineffective and won't
work, and stupid, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And so, therefore, if we're to be faithful to Paul's
ministry style, we're to comeand do ministry in the least
clever way possible so that wecan say all the power belongs to
God.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, the gospel could only have grown here
because of God, because I wastruly useless.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I had no clue.
I was clueless, hopeless andjust did things in a really.
So that's a discussion I thinkwe need to be having, because my
contention is that at chapter 3, verse 10, what Paul's doing is
kind of a sideways critique ofthe Corinthians.
So Paul came with a messagethat to the wise of the world
(10:30):
and those who are looking forsigns and wonders, was
foolishness.
It didn't fit.
And Paul came determined to befaithful to that message,
despite the way the culturearound him perceived it.
But does that also mean that hecame without thoughtful
ministry practices?
Is that what he came in?
(10:50):
Weakness means?
And I think by the time you getto chapter 3, verse 10, what
Paul's saying is I may appear tohave been foolish to you, but I
did actually come with skill.
If you had the eyes to see it.
I did actually lay a foundationas a skilful master builder,
though you, corinthians, didn'tsee it.
I think there's a shift goingon in Paul's.
(11:12):
So what about each?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
one is to be careful how he builds on it.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I'm thinking.
Be careful means I need to bothmake sure that I'm teaching the
same gospel that was initiallyplanted, but I actually need to
think about how to do this inthe best way possible.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
This is exactly the discussion, and it's an
important one to have.
Be careful in how you build.
I think, certainly in itscontext, is a reference to make
sure that if you build, youbuild according to the gospel,
you build with the gospel.
You continue to pay attentionto the weakness of the message
of Christ crucified Absolutely.
But is he now starting to say alittle bit more?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I mean, I guess the question is is there a quantity
as well as a quality that comesin there?
Is there a and is there a?
Yeah, I'll just stop at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah well, is it?
More is his only thought atthat point.
Make sure you preach themessage in a certain way.
Is that all he's speaking about?
And given the language oflaying a foundation and the ones
who build on it, there iscertainly a core, central aspect
, which is the nature of themessage that you preach, that
(12:28):
you disciple people with andnurture people in.
And there's certainly, giventhe flavour of those chapters,
there's certainly a sense inwhich, however you do what you
do in ministry, you've got to doit according to the texture of
the gospel.
So triumphalism, which is thegreat concern of 2 Corinthians,
is ruled out.
I can't come in triumph, exceptin so far as that's perceived
(12:52):
by spiritual eyes to betriumphant.
But I can't cometriumphalistically, sort of
seeking to win the Greeks by thethings they love Absolutely.
But does that rule out a use ofwisdom that we would regard?
(13:14):
So, for instance, paul'swritings itself in those first
four chapters is a very cleverpiece of rhetoric.
So Paul learned how to putwords together and create a
persuasive argument writing tothe Corinthians.
That itself didn't come fromthe gospel, it came from his
(13:38):
understanding of how you makewords work in the world.
Now, in one sense that's justbringing clever, thoughtful
ministry practice.
So Paul's doing it, and whatdoes he mean, therefore, at
Chapter 3?
I think there's an added thingthat's coming on here, I suspect
too.
What's going on is this sense?
Is this the diagonalisation ofChristopher Watkin?
(13:59):
I don't want to claim too much.
He might agree with me on this,but I do wonder a little bit
what Paul's doing.
He's saying once you die tohuman wisdom through the gospel,
once you come to Jesus and findthat pretentious Greek rhetoric
killed, you'll have the eyes tobetter see what true wisdom is
in ministry, what kinds ofpractices actually do align with
(14:25):
the nature of the gospel, thenature of Christ crucified, and
what kinds of ministry practicesactually undermine the very
nature of the gospel messagewe're preaching.
But I think that's what Paul'swrestling with there.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So what about the suggestion, if you like that,
all that thinking about thedetail of once?
You've said I need to go tothere.
Well, how am I going to getthere?
The steps, the effectiveorganisation, all that kind of
thing is all from paganism, allfrom pragmatism.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
The effective organisation, all that kind of
thing is all from paganism, allfrom pragmatism.
It cannot be given that theApostle Paul has in his mind,
when he writes the letter to theCorinthians, to persuade them
of something.
So the very letter itself iswritten to achieve an end and he
has worked out how do Iconstruct this letter to achieve
(15:17):
that end.
It is some very helpfulthinking in the Australian
church record on this.
About strategy, we have a wecan have a sort of a reaction,
emotional reaction, against thelanguage of strategy.
But if strategy, if allstrategy is planning to succeed,
(15:38):
which a very fine article inthe Australian Church Record
talks about, if that's allstrategy is planning to succeed,
then if we want to succeed inseeing someone brought to Christ
, then we will think about aplan to achieve that end.
1 Corinthians 9.
So Paul, jew too, greek too,those under law, those not
(16:00):
Different strategies.
He plans to work out how tobest reach people with the news
of Christ.
He's strategic.
He works out which cities to goto, where to go and these kinds
of things he's thinking through.
How can I best bring about theend to which Christ calls me,
the salvation of the world,making disciples of all nations,
(16:21):
if we don't pursue strategicthinking, how best to achieve an
outcome, I think we're being,in the end, faithless, actually,
as well as foolish in itsbroader sense as well as foolish
in its broader sense.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And do you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
think that's what the people who are critiquing you
are advocating.
I don't.
I hope not.
I don't think so.
I think what they're doing isone of the.
I think the trigger and this isnot an unhelpful thing I think
the trigger for many is thedangers of business practices,
so that language ofbusinessification.
(17:06):
I think the danger many peopleare seeing is the thought that
Christian ministry might becomereliant on a kind of 21st
century business model and tothe degree that church does that
, I think the critique's rightand helpful.
You know, the extremes of thatis that we cease to be prayerful
, we cease to realise that allthat we do is by the strength of
(17:30):
God, by his power, that anyfruit that comes is by the grace
of God.
You know there's one of thevery clear and evidence kind of
outcomes of thatbusinessification of church life
.
But I think the danger is thatpeople are seeing things from
the top down and notappreciating from the bottom up.
Can you explain what I mean?
(17:51):
If you look at ministries fromthe top down, they can see some
kinds of strategy structuresthat people might be employing
to facilitate reaching peopleand growing and deepening and
building communities of love.
They can see the top down andgo.
That looks like business and itmight well be and we need to
repent of that.
(18:11):
But if you think of it from thebottom up, which is a simple
couple of ideas, we have noticedover the years that if I can
get more non-Christians sittingwith more thoughtful Christians
in personal relationship, wherequestions can be asked and
answered, where there can belife perceived and understood,
(18:33):
if I can get more non-Christiansinto that kind of relational
context, we'll see more peopleprofess faith.
Second, if I can get those whoprofess faith to be personally
walked with and mentored throughthe things of Christ and
established in church, less willbounce out.
If I can follow them up in avery personal, transforming,
spiritually hearted way, we'llsee less people bounce out.
(18:55):
Those two things to me seem tobe self-evidently true.
Well, here's the deal If I wantto see more people brought to
hear the things of Christ in arelational context, I need to
organise, I need to work out howto get more people to apply to
that work and how to make surethat happens in a healthy and
proper way.
I have to set up teams and thenmake sure those teams are well
(19:18):
led, Rooms are heated, All ofthat back-end stuff and if I
want to get people followed upso that I don't just give them a
book and walk away but Iactually walk with them, well,
if I'm going to get lots ofpeople professing faith
converted, I'm going to needlots of people to walk with them
.
Who's going to make sure thosepeople are arranged to walk with
every new person and help themgrow and deepen in their work?
(19:40):
Someone needs to organise that.
Well, I cannot see that that'sbusinessification.
That's just wise application ofthe stewardship of the
resources we have.
But someone needs to lead andmanage it and put it all
together and make it work.
If the Lord blesses our churchesand brings dozens more
(20:00):
interested people to ourcongregations, what you would
love to see is that every singleone of those who comes gets
personally mentored and caredfor.
Well, how is that going tohappen?
Only if someone pays attentionto making sure every new person
is personally cared for andmentored.
Build a team, get a leader, getorganised.
(20:22):
So I think we often set friendsagainst each other.
The friends are personal,transformational, warm-hearted
ministry and being organised.
They're friends when done welltogether, but we often cast them
as alternatives and enemies.
(20:45):
We want to do ministry in apersonal, warm-hearted,
spiritual, transformating way.
We ought not be organised.
Therefore, the more organisedwe are, the less no, no, no, it
can be.
We can end up running church tobe organised and efficient, and
if that's the end, that'sinappropriate.
(21:05):
But if our end is personaltransformation, spiritual work,
one-to-one groups gettingorganised to facilitate, that's
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
As the church gets larger, organisation gets more
important.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yes and no.
In church context, wherethere's a people-rich
environment and time-rich, youcan be less organised.
So our university contexts havebeen in the past, though I
think things are changing.
Our university contexts oftendon't need much leadership
(21:46):
organisational, you knowdelegations, teams and so on
because you can often capture agreat crowd of students who are
already pre-shaped to know howto handle a word and talk to
others.
When you go to suburbia youdon't have people around as much
(22:07):
, you don't have much time withthem, and so you've got to work
deeper.
You've got to build teams withleaders and leaders to actually
get more of the time.
Poor people, poor environments,being more effective at the
personal walking withtransformation work, and so I
think in certain contexts andit's not always small versus
(22:30):
large, it's the kind of natureof the people work you're doing
One of our challenges is movinga little bit off topic.
One of our challenges is many ofus trained in university
contexts and we took theministry practices we picked up
in university context intosuburbia without appreciating a
lot of the ministry practices weendorsed.
There were pragmatics, notprinciples.
(22:51):
That is to say, the way you ranand developed groups of people
doing people work was very muchdependent on the cultural
context you were in, which was auniversity setting.
If you take those practices andmove them into suburbia without
recognising the vastdifferences between those
environments, the pragmaticpractices don't work in suburbia
(23:14):
in the same kind of way, and sowe've got to pay much more
attention in suburbia tobuilding teams, to working deep
in leadership, organisationalstructures for the sake of
getting more of the personaltransformational work happening.
But if we've got a culturethat's setting an environment
where being organised is theenemy of personal work, we've
(23:40):
cut the legs out from underdoing ministry in suburbia in a
way that's effective andmultiplying and can scale.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And it's financially going to be viable and will be
viable.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So we've got lots of churches around our cities where
partly it's a building issue.
We've got lots of ministrieswhere we cannot get to a certain
size to be able to fund themultiplication and expansion of
the work.
So there are other realitiescoming in.
If we're going to reach thiscountry, you know we need to own
(24:10):
the fact that we either need tosee every church get much
bigger or we need many, manymore churches, or both, or both
yeah.
But what we're creating is aministry climate where we're
reticent to want churches to getbigger because somehow we've
just determined that biggerchurch is bad.
(24:32):
We don't want to be in bigchurch because it's impersonal.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And I notice we've dropped in the number of
churches over 400 over the lastdecade.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think there's a number of
factors going on there.
But if we add into that a kindof emotive reaction to getting
bigger, we're effectivelysetting ourselves up with an
impossible task.
We won't be able to reach thecountry if we don't buy into the
fact we need to grow ourministries and get them bigger.
It's like saying I want to befit as long as I don't have to
(25:01):
do exercise.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Do you know what I mean?
And yet I can kind of hearpeople say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I kind of agree with you inprinciple.
We need to be bigger, but Istill want to know everyone.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, and there is exactly the point.
If I believe the church must bea place where I know everyone
and the pastor knows everybody,we have built into our very
ministry psyche theimpossibility of reaching this
country.
What estimate is there of thenumber of people coming to our
church?
It's about weekly.
It's about 3%, 4% or somethinglike this.
If we want to get to 5%, whichin itself is a very unambitious
(25:35):
goal, if we want to get to 5%,we need to double the size of
every church or have twice asmany.
But if we have a culture thatwon't allow us to grow our
churches in size, we've alreadypreemptively decided we won't
reach this country.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So what do we need to do to undo that drop in number
of bigger churches and what dowe do to get bigger churches?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh, there's a range of things.
Always it's build the heattowards the need to reach this
country at whatever the costpersonally, not at the cost of
the nature of the gospel andfaithful gospel ministry, of
course.
But there are personal coststhat we need to be ready to say
let's buy into that for the sakeof reaching this country, and
(26:21):
that personal cost might includebeing in churches where I don't
know everyone's name.
We need to teach our leadersthe realities of heaven and hell
, you know, be captivated by theseriousness of the cause we're
up against, but then skill themup in.
How can I be a wise, skillfulmaster builder?
How can I learn to do ministryin a way that genuinely honours
(26:45):
the nature of the gospel itself,has not given in to business
practice as the key and thesuccess in this, but is
committed to scale, committed togrowing, building and getting
organised to achieve that end.
There's many things to work on.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
What do you think's going on?
I mean, I'm just thinking aboutthis quiet revival in the UK
that they're talking about andsuddenly people oh God is giving
growth.
Where I'm just thinking aboutthis quiet revival in the UK
that they're talking about, andsuddenly people oh God is giving
growth.
Where I'm doing nothing andpeople are running towards that
rather than I need to beorganised.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I think there's a very important lesson that comes
out of the 1700s, so it's theWhitfield-Wesley lesson.
So Whitfield goes to the.
There's a revival going on.
There's a great revival.
Whitfield goes to the fieldsand starts preaching.
Tens and tens of thousands ofpeople are coming to faith.
He pours himself out to thiscause, dies and much of what
(27:45):
emerged.
There's great ongoing impact,of course, but a lot of it fades
.
Wesley comes along behind him,probably not as gifted as a
preacher, goes to the fields,preaches, sees much conversion
and so on, but alongside of thatsets up a class structure where
he gets organised.
(28:05):
He establishes small groupministry with a whole set of
lessons and commands around whatthe leaders should be like and
how they should perform, andthere's a whole system of
looking after it all.
Wesley's ministry continued onfor many, many years past
Whitfield's Now, I guess.
Again, I want to say, if wewant to reach this country and
(28:29):
the world, we need the both end,not to set them as enemies
against each other.
We need faithful,gospel-hearted preachers who are
captivated by the love of Jesus, the reality of hell, and are
sold out to the cause of thegospel, who will never
compromise on those things.
But we also need to getorganised in a way that honours
all of that, not in a way thatgives over into business
(28:51):
practice, in a way thatundermines the very gospel.
All of that's true.
Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Andrew Heard has been my guest.
The Senior Pastor of EV Churchon the Central Coast of New
South Wales and also leader ofthe Reach Australia Movement.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nexttuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and the
controversies surroundingpursuing goals and outcomes in
Christian ministry.
Andrew Hurd is our guest.
The Apostle Paul wasgoal-driven at every point in
his ministry.
He took great care in pursuingthe goals that were the most
God-honouring and in using thebest God-appointed means to
(00:30):
achieve those goals.
That's Andrew Heard.
In ministry, we cannot be otherthan goal-driven.
We might be consciouslygoal-driven or unconsciously
goal-driven, but we aregoal-driven.
For us, andrew Heard says, thequestion is is our goal a worthy
one?
And yet I have read, watchedand heard critiques of this kind
(00:52):
of thinking from friends for awhile now.
Sometimes the critique is thathaving goals well, that's a
sellout to the church growthmovement.
Sometimes it's a critique ofbusinessification, applying KPIs
, efficiency models andleadership training from the
secular world.
Andrew Heard is Senior Pastorof the influential EV Church on
the central coast of New SouthWales and leader of the Reach
(01:16):
Australia movement.
Andrew, thanks for coming in.
You have been pushing forchange in the church for a while
now and now you're receivingsome pushback or not just now I
think from the first.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
No, it's.
It's regularly uh peopleraising questions, but helpfully
so I just should say I think, Ithink one of the sharpened your
thinking, necessarily.
So, yeah, I think the one ofthe beautiful things about our
world is that our Christianfellowship together is that
we've got a real honesty and areal nudge back and forward very
(01:51):
helpfully thoughtful engagementin these areas.
It's a great blessing our kindof group of people who wrestle
with these things.
So it's all been good.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I love it.
So what is goal-driven ministryand what's the critique that
you've heard?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, I would call it outcome leadership, so I use
the language of outcome.
But goal-driven ministry is tosay the same thing that if I'm
going to be involved in ministryI need to have an outcome in
mind, a goal to pursue, so bedriven by that goal and seeking
to achieve it.
And the critique.
Well, the critique is that itgets.
(02:27):
I think it gets a little odd,and sometimes the critique
bundles together ideas that Idon't think ought to be held
together, such as goal-driven issometimes understood to include
the means and manner by whichyou pursue it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So if you put under that umbrella Not just the ends
but how I get there, yeah, so wewould call that kind of
combining two different things.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So sometimes people say the whole idea of
outcome-driven leans too muchinto business practice, leans
too much into worldly wisdom.
And it can undoubtedly.
But when you separate the factof having a goal from how you
pursue the goal, then I think,as Christians, we can't be other
than goal-driven, we can't beother than outcome leaders.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, let's just play with that for a minute.
I mean, I think you're sayingwe are goal-driven.
I might have defined it well,or I might not have defined it
well.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I don't think humans can be other than goal-driven.
I think we have a telos builtinto us, a purpose we're made
for achieving ends, and so inChristian ministry, I don't
think it's possible to actuallybe in Christian ministry without
having a goal that you arepursuing, an outcome you're
driven towards.
The problem for us is if that'strue.
The problem for us is if wedon't pay attention to being
(03:49):
outcome driven, we'll be lessself-reflective on what those
outcomes actually are, and so,buried beneath the verbal
expression of what I might betrying to achieve, will be less
God-honouring outcomes that I'mtrying to pursue like to be
liked.
Do you know Right?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So I could have a goal as a pastor to be liked.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I'm never actually going to say that out loud and
it may be buried sufficientlydeeply that it's not even
obvious to me, but you'll see itemerge in terms of the things
we say yes to and the things wesay no to to me, but you'll see
it emerge in terms of the thingswe say yes to and the things we
say no to.
So you might find a particularleader.
The only consistent way to workout why is he saying yes to
that, why is she saying no tothat, is because actually he or
(04:34):
she just wants to be liked bypeople and doesn't want to
offend, doesn't want to hurt.
So I think, one way or another,we have outcomes and goals to
which we're working and the morewe acknowledge that and know
that, the better we're able toactually analyse it together
under the word of God and workout how worthy they are.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So I mean, that sounds obvious to me.
Why is somebody critiquing youon that?
Or are they critiquing you overthe methods?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It seems obvious to me too.
I think what's happening ispeople are perceiving the
language of outcome-driven orgoal-driven to be narrowed down
to very banal kinds of goals oroutcomes, like numbers, purely
and simply so to be outcomeWhereas if I want a disciple who
(05:29):
is rich in their following ofthe Lord Jesus Christ
holistically attempting to serve, love him, that kind of thing.
And there's a whole range ofoutcomes that the scriptures
would call us to have to glorifyGod in the establishment of
people in the faith in a waythat genuinely transforms their
(05:49):
life, such that we buildcommunities of love.
I mean, there's a quicksnapshot of an expression of
what outcome we're after, but ifyou reduce that merely to a
crowd in a building, then thatis inappropriate and poorly
conceived.
So I think what happens ispeople take the idea badly
exercised and bundle all thattogether and say it's wrong,
(06:13):
whereas I'd offer no.
The principle of beingoutcome-driven is not the
problem.
It's what you bundle togetheras the outcome that you're
seeking to pursue.
Paul, the Apostle, is the Lord.
Jesus comes to seek and savethe lost.
There's an outcome Comes toglorify his Father.
These are outcomes, you see,and the Apostle Paul is doing
(06:34):
everything he can 1 Corinthians9, to save as many as possible.
These are all just simplyoutcomes, expressions of ends to
which he's working.
I cannot see how we canconceive of Christian ministry
other than having an end towhich we're working, a goal.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Well, take me to 1 Corinthians 3, because there's
been quite a contention about 1Corinthians 3, and particularly
1 Corinthians 3, verse 10 andwise master builder.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'll read the whole verse and you can speak to it.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
According to God's grace that was given to me, I
have laid a foundation as askilled or wise master builder,
and another builds on it, buteach one is to be careful how he
builds on it.
No one can lay any otherfoundation than what has been
laid.
That foundation is Jesus Christ.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, the question is , what do we do with the word?
It's a compound little phrasethere.
It's sophos architectone.
Yeah from I guess we getarchitect yeah.
Yeah, yeah yeah, and that littlecompound architectone is
properly translated, I thinkmany would say, as master
builder.
It's not just someone whobuilds, but it's the leader,
(07:45):
it's the head builder.
What do you do with the wordSophos in front of it?
Do we translate as wise or asas the East, as skillful?
Well, it depends on how muchattention you pay to the use of
the word sophos through 1.
Corinthians 1-4, or whetherthere's a justification to say
(08:07):
that phrase sophos architectonhas a sufficient cultural
baggage to it in its useselsewhere that as a phrase it
has its own meaning.
Yeah, and I would argue thatthat's the case.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What's the argument against you?
And then what's your argument?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, paul, makes much of the fact that the word
sophos is.
There's a critique and achallenge around what is wisdom,
you see, and the Corinthianshave one view of it, the Greeks
have one view of it.
If you like, have one view ofit.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
if you like, yeah, and Paul comes, I'm being
impressive, I'm doing goodrhetoric, yeah, yeah, yeah,
using good skills and thingslike that.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah with the toga and the kind of great rhetoric
and so on.
And Paul comes in weakness andfear and he presents the gospel
without wise and persuasivewords.
He renounces the idea of thatkind of wisdom.
But when he comes to 1Corinthians 3, verse 10, is he
still using the word sophos wisein the way he's used it all the
(09:05):
way through, or because it'spart of that phrase, sophos
architecton?
Is he picking up the way thatphrase is used, and I think we
need to invite consideration ofthat?
So it's used in Isaiah, it'sused in Philo, these other
places, and in each of thoseoccasions it's used to mean a
(09:25):
skilful builder, not justsomeone who is wise.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
That's the way it's understood Wise in the
Corinthian sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, and so it then opens up whole questions around.
What does Paul mean by comingin weakness?
Does that?
Are we to read him coming inweakness to mean he deliberately
chooses ministry?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
practices that are feeble and ineffective and won't
work, and stupid, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And so, therefore, if we're to be faithful to Paul's
ministry style, we're to comeand do ministry in the least
clever way possible so that wecan say all the power belongs to
God.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, the gospel could only have grown here
because of God, because I wastruly useless.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I had no clue.
I was clueless, hopeless andjust did things in a really.
So that's a discussion I thinkwe need to be having, because my
contention is that at chapter 3, verse 10, what Paul's doing is
kind of a sideways critique ofthe Corinthians.
So Paul came with a messagethat to the wise of the world
(10:30):
and those who are looking forsigns and wonders, was
foolishness.
It didn't fit.
And Paul came determined to befaithful to that message,
despite the way the culturearound him perceived it.
But does that also mean that hecame without thoughtful
ministry practices?
Is that what he came in?
(10:50):
Weakness means?
And I think by the time you getto chapter 3, verse 10, what
Paul's saying is I may appear tohave been foolish to you, but I
did actually come with skill.
If you had the eyes to see it.
I did actually lay a foundationas a skilful master builder,
though you, corinthians, didn'tsee it.
I think there's a shift goingon in Paul's.
(11:12):
So what about each?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
one is to be careful how he builds on it.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I'm thinking.
Be careful means I need to bothmake sure that I'm teaching the
same gospel that was initiallyplanted, but I actually need to
think about how to do this inthe best way possible.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
This is exactly the discussion, and it's an
important one to have.
Be careful in how you build.
I think, certainly in itscontext, is a reference to make
sure that if you build, youbuild according to the gospel,
you build with the gospel.
You continue to pay attentionto the weakness of the message
of Christ crucified Absolutely.
But is he now starting to say alittle bit more?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I mean, I guess the question is is there a quantity
as well as a quality that comesin there?
Is there a and is there a?
Yeah, I'll just stop at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah well, is it?
More is his only thought atthat point.
Make sure you preach themessage in a certain way.
Is that all he's speaking about?
And given the language oflaying a foundation and the ones
who build on it, there iscertainly a core, central aspect
, which is the nature of themessage that you preach, that
(12:28):
you disciple people with andnurture people in.
And there's certainly, giventhe flavour of those chapters,
there's certainly a sense inwhich, however you do what you
do in ministry, you've got to doit according to the texture of
the gospel.
So triumphalism, which is thegreat concern of 2 Corinthians,
is ruled out.
I can't come in triumph, exceptin so far as that's perceived
(12:52):
by spiritual eyes to betriumphant.
But I can't cometriumphalistically, sort of
seeking to win the Greeks by thethings they love Absolutely.
But does that rule out a use ofwisdom that we would regard?
(13:14):
So, for instance, paul'swritings itself in those first
four chapters is a very cleverpiece of rhetoric.
So Paul learned how to putwords together and create a
persuasive argument writing tothe Corinthians.
That itself didn't come fromthe gospel, it came from his
(13:38):
understanding of how you makewords work in the world.
Now, in one sense that's justbringing clever, thoughtful
ministry practice.
So Paul's doing it, and whatdoes he mean, therefore, at
Chapter 3?
I think there's an added thingthat's coming on here, I suspect
too.
What's going on is this sense?
Is this the diagonalisation ofChristopher Watkin?
(13:59):
I don't want to claim too much.
He might agree with me on this,but I do wonder a little bit
what Paul's doing.
He's saying once you die tohuman wisdom through the gospel,
once you come to Jesus and findthat pretentious Greek rhetoric
killed, you'll have the eyes tobetter see what true wisdom is
in ministry, what kinds ofpractices actually do align with
(14:25):
the nature of the gospel, thenature of Christ crucified, and
what kinds of ministry practicesactually undermine the very
nature of the gospel messagewe're preaching.
But I think that's what Paul'swrestling with there.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So what about the suggestion, if you like that,
all that thinking about thedetail of once?
You've said I need to go tothere.
Well, how am I going to getthere?
The steps, the effectiveorganisation, all that kind of
thing is all from paganism, allfrom pragmatism.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
The effective organisation, all that kind of
thing is all from paganism, allfrom pragmatism.
It cannot be given that theApostle Paul has in his mind,
when he writes the letter to theCorinthians, to persuade them
of something.
So the very letter itself iswritten to achieve an end and he
has worked out how do Iconstruct this letter to achieve
(15:17):
that end.
It is some very helpfulthinking in the Australian
church record on this.
About strategy, we have a wecan have a sort of a reaction,
emotional reaction, against thelanguage of strategy.
But if strategy, if allstrategy is planning to succeed,
(15:38):
which a very fine article inthe Australian Church Record
talks about, if that's allstrategy is planning to succeed,
then if we want to succeed inseeing someone brought to Christ
, then we will think about aplan to achieve that end.
1 Corinthians 9.
So Paul, jew too, greek too,those under law, those not
(16:00):
Different strategies.
He plans to work out how tobest reach people with the news
of Christ.
He's strategic.
He works out which cities to goto, where to go and these kinds
of things he's thinking through.
How can I best bring about theend to which Christ calls me,
the salvation of the world,making disciples of all nations,
(16:21):
if we don't pursue strategicthinking, how best to achieve an
outcome, I think we're being,in the end, faithless, actually,
as well as foolish in itsbroader sense as well as foolish
in its broader sense.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And do you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
think that's what the people who are critiquing you
are advocating.
I don't.
I hope not.
I don't think so.
I think what they're doing isone of the.
I think the trigger and this isnot an unhelpful thing I think
the trigger for many is thedangers of business practices,
so that language ofbusinessification.
(17:06):
I think the danger many peopleare seeing is the thought that
Christian ministry might becomereliant on a kind of 21st
century business model and tothe degree that church does that
, I think the critique's rightand helpful.
You know, the extremes of thatis that we cease to be prayerful
, we cease to realise that allthat we do is by the strength of
(17:30):
God, by his power, that anyfruit that comes is by the grace
of God.
You know there's one of thevery clear and evidence kind of
outcomes of thatbusinessification of church life
.
But I think the danger is thatpeople are seeing things from
the top down and notappreciating from the bottom up.
Can you explain what I mean?
(17:51):
If you look at ministries fromthe top down, they can see some
kinds of strategy structuresthat people might be employing
to facilitate reaching peopleand growing and deepening and
building communities of love.
They can see the top down andgo.
That looks like business and itmight well be and we need to
repent of that.
(18:11):
But if you think of it from thebottom up, which is a simple
couple of ideas, we have noticedover the years that if I can
get more non-Christians sittingwith more thoughtful Christians
in personal relationship, wherequestions can be asked and
answered, where there can belife perceived and understood,
(18:33):
if I can get more non-Christiansinto that kind of relational
context, we'll see more peopleprofess faith.
Second, if I can get those whoprofess faith to be personally
walked with and mentored throughthe things of Christ and
established in church, less willbounce out.
If I can follow them up in avery personal, transforming,
spiritually hearted way, we'llsee less people bounce out.
(18:55):
Those two things to me seem tobe self-evidently true.
Well, here's the deal If I wantto see more people brought to
hear the things of Christ in arelational context, I need to
organise, I need to work out howto get more people to apply to
that work and how to make surethat happens in a healthy and
proper way.
I have to set up teams and thenmake sure those teams are well
(19:18):
led, Rooms are heated, All ofthat back-end stuff and if I
want to get people followed upso that I don't just give them a
book and walk away but Iactually walk with them, well,
if I'm going to get lots ofpeople professing faith
converted, I'm going to needlots of people to walk with them
.
Who's going to make sure thosepeople are arranged to walk with
every new person and help themgrow and deepen in their work?
(19:40):
Someone needs to organise that.
Well, I cannot see that that'sbusinessification.
That's just wise application ofthe stewardship of the
resources we have.
But someone needs to lead andmanage it and put it all
together and make it work.
If the Lord blesses our churchesand brings dozens more
(20:00):
interested people to ourcongregations, what you would
love to see is that every singleone of those who comes gets
personally mentored and caredfor.
Well, how is that going tohappen?
Only if someone pays attentionto making sure every new person
is personally cared for andmentored.
Build a team, get a leader, getorganised.
(20:22):
So I think we often set friendsagainst each other.
The friends are personal,transformational, warm-hearted
ministry and being organised.
They're friends when done welltogether, but we often cast them
as alternatives and enemies.
(20:45):
We want to do ministry in apersonal, warm-hearted,
spiritual, transformating way.
We ought not be organised.
Therefore, the more organisedwe are, the less no, no, no, it
can be.
We can end up running church tobe organised and efficient, and
if that's the end, that'sinappropriate.
(21:05):
But if our end is personaltransformation, spiritual work,
one-to-one groups gettingorganised to facilitate, that's
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
As the church gets larger, organisation gets more
important.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yes and no.
In church context, wherethere's a people-rich
environment and time-rich, youcan be less organised.
So our university contexts havebeen in the past, though I
think things are changing.
Our university contexts oftendon't need much leadership
(21:46):
organisational, you knowdelegations, teams and so on
because you can often capture agreat crowd of students who are
already pre-shaped to know howto handle a word and talk to
others.
When you go to suburbia youdon't have people around as much
(22:07):
, you don't have much time withthem, and so you've got to work
deeper.
You've got to build teams withleaders and leaders to actually
get more of the time.
Poor people, poor environments,being more effective at the
personal walking withtransformation work, and so I
think in certain contexts andit's not always small versus
(22:30):
large, it's the kind of natureof the people work you're doing
One of our challenges is movinga little bit off topic.
One of our challenges is many ofus trained in university
contexts and we took theministry practices we picked up
in university context intosuburbia without appreciating a
lot of the ministry practices weendorsed.
There were pragmatics, notprinciples.
(22:51):
That is to say, the way you ranand developed groups of people
doing people work was very muchdependent on the cultural
context you were in, which was auniversity setting.
If you take those practices andmove them into suburbia without
recognising the vastdifferences between those
environments, the pragmaticpractices don't work in suburbia
(23:14):
in the same kind of way, and sowe've got to pay much more
attention in suburbia tobuilding teams, to working deep
in leadership, organisationalstructures for the sake of
getting more of the personaltransformational work happening.
But if we've got a culturethat's setting an environment
where being organised is theenemy of personal work, we've
(23:40):
cut the legs out from underdoing ministry in suburbia in a
way that's effective andmultiplying and can scale.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And it's financially going to be viable and will be
viable.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So we've got lots of churches around our cities where
partly it's a building issue.
We've got lots of ministrieswhere we cannot get to a certain
size to be able to fund themultiplication and expansion of
the work.
So there are other realitiescoming in.
If we're going to reach thiscountry, you know we need to own
(24:10):
the fact that we either need tosee every church get much
bigger or we need many, manymore churches, or both, or both
yeah.
But what we're creating is aministry climate where we're
reticent to want churches to getbigger because somehow we've
just determined that biggerchurch is bad.
(24:32):
We don't want to be in bigchurch because it's impersonal.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And I notice we've dropped in the number of
churches over 400 over the lastdecade.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think there's a number of
factors going on there.
But if we add into that a kindof emotive reaction to getting
bigger, we're effectivelysetting ourselves up with an
impossible task.
We won't be able to reach thecountry if we don't buy into the
fact we need to grow ourministries and get them bigger.
It's like saying I want to befit as long as I don't have to
(25:01):
do exercise.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Do you know what I mean?
And yet I can kind of hearpeople say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I kind of agree with you inprinciple.
We need to be bigger, but Istill want to know everyone.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, and there is exactly the point.
If I believe the church must bea place where I know everyone
and the pastor knows everybody,we have built into our very
ministry psyche theimpossibility of reaching this
country.
What estimate is there of thenumber of people coming to our
church?
It's about weekly.
It's about 3%, 4% or somethinglike this.
If we want to get to 5%, whichin itself is a very unambitious
(25:35):
goal, if we want to get to 5%,we need to double the size of
every church or have twice asmany.
But if we have a culture thatwon't allow us to grow our
churches in size, we've alreadypreemptively decided we won't
reach this country.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So what do we need to do to undo that drop in number
of bigger churches and what dowe do to get bigger churches?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh, there's a range of things.
Always it's build the heattowards the need to reach this
country at whatever the costpersonally, not at the cost of
the nature of the gospel andfaithful gospel ministry, of
course.
But there are personal coststhat we need to be ready to say
let's buy into that for the sakeof reaching this country, and
(26:21):
that personal cost might includebeing in churches where I don't
know everyone's name.
We need to teach our leadersthe realities of heaven and hell
, you know, be captivated by theseriousness of the cause we're
up against, but then skill themup in.
How can I be a wise, skillfulmaster builder?
How can I learn to do ministryin a way that genuinely honours
(26:45):
the nature of the gospel itself,has not given in to business
practice as the key and thesuccess in this, but is
committed to scale, committed togrowing, building and getting
organised to achieve that end.
There's many things to work on.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
What do you think's going on?
I mean, I'm just thinking aboutthis quiet revival in the UK
that they're talking about andsuddenly people oh God is giving
growth.
Where I'm just thinking aboutthis quiet revival in the UK
that they're talking about, andsuddenly people oh God is giving
growth.
Where I'm doing nothing andpeople are running towards that
rather than I need to beorganised.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I think there's a very important lesson that comes
out of the 1700s, so it's theWhitfield-Wesley lesson.
So Whitfield goes to the.
There's a revival going on.
There's a great revival.
Whitfield goes to the fieldsand starts preaching.
Tens and tens of thousands ofpeople are coming to faith.
He pours himself out to thiscause, dies and much of what
(27:45):
emerged.
There's great ongoing impact,of course, but a lot of it fades
.
Wesley comes along behind him,probably not as gifted as a
preacher, goes to the fields,preaches, sees much conversion
and so on, but alongside of thatsets up a class structure where
he gets organised.
(28:05):
He establishes small groupministry with a whole set of
lessons and commands around whatthe leaders should be like and
how they should perform, andthere's a whole system of
looking after it all.
Wesley's ministry continued onfor many, many years past
Whitfield's Now, I guess.
Again, I want to say, if wewant to reach this country and
(28:29):
the world, we need the both end,not to set them as enemies
against each other.
We need faithful,gospel-hearted preachers who are
captivated by the love of Jesus, the reality of hell, and are
sold out to the cause of thegospel, who will never
compromise on those things.
But we also need to getorganised in a way that honours
all of that, not in a way thatgives over into business
(28:51):
practice, in a way thatundermines the very gospel.
All of that's true.
Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Andrew Heard has been my guest.
The Senior Pastor of EV Churchon the Central Coast of New
South Wales and also leader ofthe Reach Australia Movement.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nexttuesday afternoon.
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