August 12, 2025 • 30 mins
A training culture for the next generation: Healthy Churches producing new ministers for the next generation.
Across the world, the number of candidates putting themselves forward for gospel ministry is in decline. Many churches are feeling the pinch—struggling to find leaders and often looking elsewhere to fill ministry gaps.
Yet healthy churches don’t just maintain ministry; they reproduce it. They raise up and send out the next generation of gospel workers.
This week in Sydney, a group of evangelical movement leaders from across the globe have gathered to sharpen one another in this task: creating a culture of training that will multiply gospel workers for the decades ahead.
The shift they are calling for is from passively plotting decline to actively asking, What are we going to do?—and then taking decisive steps toward it.
We’re joined this afternoon by three of those symposium participants. From the UK, Robin Sydserff of the Proclamation Trust.
From Santiago, Chile, Matt Pope—pastor and trainer of pastors in five Latin American countries, formerly of St Ebbe’s in Oxford.
And from Cleveland, Ohio, Marty Sweeny—pastor for training at Old North Church and long-time champion of multiplying ministry apprentices.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
a training culture for the next generation.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
Thanks for joining us.
Churches that are producing newministers for the next
generation.
Last week, on the pastor'sheart, we spoke to orlando sayer
about the drop in candidatesfor ministry and then the
consequential closure of anumber of theological colleges.
This week in Sydney, a group ofevangelical movement leaders
(00:31):
have gathered from across theworld to sharpen each other in
the process of raising up a newgeneration of gospel ministers.
Three of those symposiumparticipants are with us this
afternoon.
Robin Sidserth is with us fromthe Proclamation Trust in the
United Kingdom.
Matt Pope is here from Santiagoin Chile.
He pastors well pastors himself, but is also working with
(00:55):
pastors from five countries inLatin America.
He's formerly of St Ebbs inOxford in the UK.
And Marty Sweeney is with us aswell, from Cleveland, ohio,
pastor of training at Old NorthChurch.
Robin, let's start with you andyour pastor's heart.
And well, firstly, just thisweek, meeting with pastors from
(01:19):
across the world who are engagedin this same process, I take it
it's been extraordinarilystimulating.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you, dominic.
Thank you for having us on.
This is my first visit toSydney and it's been a wonderful
experience for me, meeting withmy colleagues from around the
world.
But let me just highlightwhat's most encouraged me,
perhaps meeting two young mencalled Harry.
(01:46):
Both called Harry, both withthe great privilege of growing
up in Christian homes.
But to meet these two young men, zealous, hungry, humble to
serve the Lord with their lives,is such an encouragement when
you're here to think togetherabout how to address the crisis
(02:07):
we're facing, certainly in theUK, to raise up gospel workers,
and that's been a hugelyinspiring thing.
Not just my colleagues fromaround the world, but the
generation of people that we'reseeking to pray will give their
lives to gospel work, becauseyou spent last weekend with I
don't know how many hundreds ofuni students yeah, 350, yeah 350
(02:28):
uni students from theUniversity of New South Wales
who are considering gospelministry full-time.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Matt, you are nodding .
That must have done you good.
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I think the big thing that's encouraged my heart
since we've been here justspending time with these guys
and others doing basically thesame thing all around the world
discipling people and disciplingpeople to help people disciple
others and just seeing actuallythe model works like what Jesus
did.
What the Vine Project talksabout is just working all around
the world and it's been justthrilling to know that God's
(03:03):
plan is just popping upeverywhere, producing leaders
everywhere that are runningchurches.
I'm delighted.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Marty, yes, I think they.
I come from a very small areaoutside of Cleveland Ohio, and
our metropolitan area is just afew hundred thousand people, and
yet we still have tens ofthousands of people who are lost
.
And so I know it's oft used atthe end of Matthew 9, the
harvest is plentiful, but thelaborers are few.
(03:29):
But we need more laborers forthe harvest, and so my heart is
to see those people reached forJesus, and so we need more
workers.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
What surprised you as you come here, man.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
If I'm honest, I found it very comfortable coming
from Santiago.
I just think the life is verycomfortable.
The amount of restaurants here,man, if I'm honest, I found it
very comfortable coming fromSantiago.
I just think the life is verycomfortable.
The amount of restaurants here,there and everywhere.
It just it was a shock to me ifI'm honest, the affluence, the
comfort.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think for me Hard to long for heaven when you.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Just a shock, I don't know.
Obviously there's suffering andpain and everything in people's
lives.
That's what makes us long forheaven.
But uh, coming here flying in,and I was in newtown, I wasn't
in the poshest of areas and itjust felt like, wow, this is uh,
this is different robin I thinkone thing that struck me,
dominic because, is a kind ofintentionality.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Um, I came, uh, you know, way back hearing about the
10 vision of philip and andothers.
It's a bold vision, it's a clearvision and so much has happened
here for good and bless theworld.
And and now that vision isn'tbeing changed, it, it's just
(04:43):
being given impetus, like thedouble where we are and move on
by, so on and so forth.
And what I picked up is none ofthe sense of complacency there
might be, but amongst that groupup the mountain in the rain,
just a real hunger and a realdrive to step up and to reach
out and to reach forward to seemore people trained for gospel
(05:05):
work.
I didn't really know what toexpect, but that has really
struck me that there is a realgodly ambition, a humble godly
ambition to multiply workers forthis country and around the
world.
And I want to take some of thatinfectious, confident
enthusiasm back to a toughcontext in the UK.
It's not easy, but the Lordpromises to build his church and
(05:30):
we pray that he will raise up ageneration of workers and we
want to try and shape thepathways to enable him to do
that.
So I'll take back a big dose ofconfidence from time here.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Marty, I had never been to UNSW and so spending a
whole day there on Wednesday.
We were with hundreds ofstudents who've been in lectures
all week doing work, and yetthey would show up for an hour
long exposition, an hour longtraining core seminar.
It was so encouraging.
I was surprised that you knowit's easy to have that, you know
(06:06):
generational condescension andthink the gen z, gen z, gen z.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
uh, I've given it to you who says yeah, sorry about
that, I'll contextualize gen zthat they're out there crossing
the culture.
To me that's good for anamerican right.
Yeah, you don't.
You normally cross the culture.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
To me that's good for an American right, yeah, you
normally cross the culture, butto see them giving up a
Wednesday afternoon witheverything else they have, going
on to listen, learn, and to seethe student workers there at
Uni Church and CBS do the work,it was wonderfully surprising.
I heard about it but I neversaw it.
It was great, right, yeah, butI never saw it.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
It was great, Right.
Yeah, Robin, we had Orlandohere a week ago and he led that
Yanton report in the UnitedKingdom and you were just saying
to me a moment ago that thatreport when it was presented a
year ago at that conferencecentre to that group in the UK,
(07:04):
that really marked a turning tothat group in the UK.
That really marked a turningpoint in discussion in the
United Kingdom.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Could you unpack that for us?
Yeah, I think in the past lotsof events have been convened to
talk about how we arrest thedecline, for example, but that
day maybe 40 or 50 of usgathered, I can't remember
exactly.
There was a kind of spirit ofhumility.
I remember the fellow whokicked the day off, stood up and
(07:35):
did a short Bible expositionand he'd had an operation, I
think, on his leg or his footand he had a stick and it was
very it kind of described how wefelt.
We were moved by it.
It was a godly day, a humbleday.
Somebody Adrian Reynolds, whoworks for the FIC, said we've
lost the confidence thatministry is a noble task.
(07:57):
All these problems and over thecourse of the day there began
to be a sense that we can moveforward much better working
together than we can on our own.
Now we left the day encouraged,but what's happened since is
concrete expression of that day.
And what's happened since is 16or so network leaders or
(08:23):
stakeholders in training havebegun to work together in the UK
they represent the trainingcolleges, the training churches,
the hub churches to develop akind of vision and strategy, a
common pathway to think aboutraising up gospel workers and in
God's it's working.
(08:44):
Now we have in the UK a contextwhich is pretty close to a
crisis in the last few years.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I've watched from a far stretch of my head.
You're well aware of that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And, ironically, when the Church of England, for
example, is in such a difficultplace, it would be hugely
tempting to say let's wait andsee what the future will be.
But raising up a generation ofworkers, creating pathways for
them through this complex time,along with a vibrant FIC, folks
(09:19):
like Orlando and others, 20years and a whole generation
will be lost, and thatcollaborative work is happening
and that is hugely.
It's not easy, but it'shappening and it's encouraging,
and being out here with some ofthe folks involved in that, like
(09:42):
Orlando, has helped us.
You know, when you come awayfrom your own context, you can
see it with freshness andclarity and we go back with that
real, buoyant encouragement.
The other thing about cominghere is there's a very important
bridge in the world as far asUK evangelicalism is concerned
and that's Sydney and Australia.
Keep going Now.
(10:03):
Peter Philip Jensen, coleMarshall, dick Lucas, john Stott
, and all my instincts, havingbeen here, is that bridge
between Sydney and the UK andSouth Africa and South America
will be critically importantgoing forward.
(10:23):
It's just partnership, such avital thing, and to come here
and discover that people hereare thinking and praying the
same thing, not to come out of acrisis like us, but to take all
the growth that you have and totake a step on.
It might just be that God isaligning something across the
world that's exciting.
So that was a significant day.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
It was a supernatural event, it was a moving day and
it was a day of real gospelunity and they've been rare in
in in the uk and we are workingtogether as leaders, which is
great matt, you are in san diego, you've got an eye for five
(11:07):
South American countries, butyou've also got your roots back
in Oxford and 10 years at StEbbs, and so I mean, let's get
your reflections about the UK,but also about Latin America.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Well, I think it's exactly what Robin was saying.
But the reality is the thingthat's been exciting in Latin
America here seeing movement,seeing progression is actually
the model that the Bible givesus is really simple.
So it starts with.
I'm not saying ministry issimple, of course ministry's got
complex things.
But actually how do you raiseup leaders?
Well, the church leader, oneperson, needs to start with
(11:44):
himself, just what the VineProject talks about.
You work on your ownconvictions.
You're a man in a place whereyou love the Lord, you're
praying, you're disciplingyourself, you're discipling your
family.
Step two we disciple someone,anyone, whether that's 72, like
Jesus did, or the 12, or thethree, or the one In our context
, we normally work with one ortwo or three.
(12:06):
Walk alongside someone, shareyour life with them, share your
faith with them, disciple them.
But I think the missing step inlots of our discipleship is the
next bit.
You disciple them, we disciplethem so that they can disciple
others.
So in my ministry, the stuff Ido, I've just got one line I
teach pastors.
When you're reading the Biblewith someone, just ask them, how
(12:28):
would you pass this on tosomeone else?
And that one line gets themthinking about.
It.
Gets them thinking about oh, Ineed to be passing this on, and
then I encourage them to do itwith someone else.
Now often people say I've notgot the tools.
I come back to them and saywell, every week we've been
meeting, I've been asking youhow do you pass this on to
someone else?
You've been telling me you cando it easily and from that I've
(12:50):
seen small churches change,bigger churches turn around,
just by one man loving the Lord,longing that he can help
someone else, so that thatperson can help someone else.
We do all these trainings forpastors to have apprenticeships
in their churches and a questionthat used to come back to us
(13:10):
over and over again was how do Iget there?
How can I have an apprentice?
There's no one in my church tobe the apprentice.
I think the thing we've all seenin our context is you start
with anyone if they're breathingLike you start with someone and
you work hard with them.
You disciple them so that theycan disciple someone else.
You'll get leaders for all yourgroups.
(13:31):
You'll get leaders for this,that and the other.
You'll get your apprentice.
You'll get your church planter,you'll get someone to go into
college and the conference stuffwas so exciting to see Lift
Lift and I hear people say, oh,but it's university settings.
Yeah, that's amazing, but theuniversity churches aren't the
(13:52):
places.
So I've seen it work in smallchurches, medium churches, big
church, nothing to do withuniversities, and I feel, I feel
we're scared of the diagnosis.
If my church, our churches,your church isn't raising up
your own apprentices, isn'tsending your own people to
college, maybe just go verysimple, work on yourself, meet
(14:17):
with one person, small group, sothat they can meet with others.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Marty Sweeney, I'm seeing you're not over there.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Well, I just wanted to add in it was interesting In
our setting in Ohio we didn'thave a university ministry.
We started with a trainingministry, internal.
An apprenticeship grew out ofthat and then from that grew a
university ministry.
So the accusation it can onlywork there is actually reversed.
For us the university ministrygrew out of our training culture
.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And maybe it will hurt other cultures.
If you're looking for auniversity ministry to give you
your apprentices, actually thatwill fill your need now, but it
won't help the church in thelong run.
It won't help a city, and whatwe really want is the gospel to
go to the world wherever we are.
It's not just here, it'severywhere.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Roman, I think you were saying to me before that
there's a sense for the pastorto think I'm so busy, there's so
many people, I've got to dothis, I've got to do that, I've
got to do this, and there's somuch internal fire.
The whole raising up of thenext generation is somebody
else's problem and the biggerchurch's problem.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
People look back to the beginnings of the
Proclamation Trust in the UK andthe seminal addresses given by
people like Jim Packer, PhilipJensen, the mid-80s Philip came
across and he managed to saysomething profoundly important
Do what the Lord says you're todo and don't do the things the
(15:46):
Lord doesn't tell you to do.
Now, that was hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
You were there for that.
No, I was too young.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No, I wasn't there and I wasn't in that world.
But it comes to you, it getspassed on.
And that constant battle inpastoral ministry to do the
things God has given you to do.
What we've been looking at thisweek is is training and raising
up gospel workers normal orexceptional?
And what we saw is Jesustrained the 12.
(16:17):
Paul said to Timothy come withme, and he trained him and then
he sent him away.
He gave him lots of short-termmission trips on the way and the
pattern in the pastals, it'snormal pattern.
It's normal pattern.
Now I was a pastor of a churchthat grew from very little to
(16:38):
become a strong training culture.
In God's kindness, I foughtthat battle again and again and
again and again.
And there are times in pastoralministry where I wanted to be
in a training session andbecause a pastoral thing comes
on, you drop the training andyou go and sit at the bedside.
It's not either or.
But over time, when a healthyculture develops, you equip lots
(17:00):
of people to care for peoplepastorally.
Now, with me as minister, whenit was death and dying, it was
always me.
That was a precious thing to me.
But but the bible says go andmake disciples of all nations.
Equip and enable people in yourchurch to be disciple, making
(17:23):
disciples from that group.
Gospel workers to be trainedwill emerge.
Send them away.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Send them away so a healthy church is not just a
reach and a build.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's got to be a reach and a build and a train
and ascend.
When you do that, godwonderfully helps with the other
stuff.
What we're looking at in the UKis many examples of churches
with a healthy culture of trade.
Now, a number of them areuniversity churches and one
thing we said today over lunchis that perhaps if you're in a
(17:56):
university setting you've got aan extra degree of
responsibility to serve thechurch.
But there are wonderfulexamples across the uk many of
them of churches miles away fromthese settings gently, quietly
raising up gospel workers.
Another expression of that issay you did an apprenticeship in
(18:19):
one particular or you grew upin a church and experienced
somewhere else, in anotherchurch, in a suburb, whatever is
vitally important and that justcomes through partnership and
connections, giving people thatexperience.
It's a great question, dominic,because I battle with that
every day of my life as a pastor, but I thank God that talks
(18:43):
like Philip's helped me to saythis is not just an optional
thing, this is a key thing to dofor the future of the gospel.
When you look at churches thehealthy training culture the
danger is you go to the onesthat are.
I mean, we were at Campus Bible.
So it's 50 and a half years old.
It's a long time.
Some of the most inspiringstuff we're seeing.
(19:05):
You go to a church with ahealthy culture and they say
we'll go and speak to this youngminister who's one or two years
in to establishing that healthyculture and you describe what
they are doing and that'saccessible, because I can do
that, because they're startingoff.
It's not this sort of grandplan after 50 years and it is
the power of one.
They're meeting off.
It's not this sort of grandplan after 50 years and it is
the power of one.
They're meeting up with two orthree people and they're
(19:28):
beginning to create a healthyculture in their church.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
But it's intentional.
It's the intentionality Becauseone of the things people don't
really care much about America.
I know it's a typical Americansaying that but because we have
so much Christian activity, wehave so many resources.
But but because we have so muchChristian activity, we have so
many resources.
But with all that activity westill see the same rot and need
for gospel workers.
And it's the intentionality ofactually doing the work and
(19:55):
sometimes saying, brother, it'stime for you to go, put your
hand to the plow.
There's no greater joy.
And we just haven't been doingthat.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Haven't been doing that.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, we know, I know .
So we have colleges,undergraduate colleges that you
can go and major in, ministryChristian colleges as we would
call them and I have contacts ina number of them and they're
all saying that the enrollmentis way down, for young men
especially.
So we have the same issues,maybe not in magnitude, but
it'll come.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I'm going to ask each of you what's a direct
application that you're takingback from this week to your
context and you're going to sayyou know what.
I'm going to raise that with myteam.
I'm going to see if we can dothis.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
So the change that has just really opened my eyes.
We went to a training culturefellowship at Moore College and
it was beautiful.
Just some people there justtalking about how we can keep
this culture going, how we cando it in our own churches, how
we can expand it.
Basically, all my work isone-to-one or one-to-two or
one-to-three with pastors, justgetting alongside and helping
(21:04):
them, bringing them to a placewhere they can start doing it,
and it's been amazing seeingpastors changing a church
culture little by little as theymeet with one, two people.
To train them, to train others.
That's the key to train others.
I hope I've said that enough.
To train others.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
You have said that about me.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
But the thing that's opened my eyes to that this week
is the doing it in groups.
So I'm going to arrange abarbecue in the next couple of
weeks and get six, seven, eightof them around my house and say
come on, guys, let's justencourage each other with our
stories, do it together andinvite your friends to this to
see it.
For me, that was the.
For me.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Christian leadership can often come in your sort of
mid-50s.
You get into a job whatever atthat sort of age and stage of
life.
One thing that we're beginningto see in the uk is working with
different generations ofleaders is a powerful thing.
So when you speak to the thepeople in the first couple of
years of their ministry andembrace what they're saying,
they haven't had time yet to todevelop, but some of them are
(22:05):
hugely inspirational.
And in the first couple ofyears of their ministry and
embrace what they're saying,they haven't had time yet to
develop, but some of them arehugely inspirational.
And in the UK context and I'lltake this back back to Harry
that I mentioned at thebeginning is meet with the
generation in their late 20s,early 30s, people in training,
and in the UK they need oursupport.
It's really hard what thefuture is, but not just give
them our support.
Embrace them in the developmentwhat the future is, but not
just give them our support.
Embrace them in the developmentof the training culture,
(22:28):
because they'll soon be insituations of leadership.
So what I'll take back fromhere is working really
intentionally with the differentgenerations and listening to
the emerging generation ofleaders.
I mean they have inspired mehere all the generations have,
but these young leaders emergingare hugely inspiring.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Maddy.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Someone not too long ago at our church, a dear saint
at our church sent me prayerpoints from a sermon I preached
five years ago, and one of therequests was that we would raise
up an apprentice who was older,and just last year we had
someone who's?
38 years old decide to do ourapprenticeship.
I just think that's reallyencouraging about the
(23:09):
generations.
I would say the direct linefrom the gospel to evangelism,
to training.
I don't wanna just focus ontraining, but the holistic.
A number of years ago when westarted our apprenticeship, I
emailed Philip Jensen and justsaid what were your best talks
in calling people into ministry?
And he wrote me back onesentence that said preach the
(23:31):
gospel.
And I thought it was justPhilip didn't want to write me a
long email, but it took me afew years and I started to
realize it right the gospel isnot just Jesus died for my sins,
but that I'm now to give up myambitions and take on the
ambitions of Christ and havethat through line from the
gospel to the evangelistic callon into giving up a whole life
(23:54):
for the Lord.
So I want to be more clearabout that through line.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I reckon go and find his talks on 2 Corinthians 5, of
God made him who had no sin tobe sin for us.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Thank you, I'll look those up, that's your tip yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I think they're great .
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned from some of
the other guys in the symposium, from, I mean, stellenbosch or
different places in the world?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, that convictions can be expressed in
different ways.
So when you develop a trainingculture in your respective
country, it's hugely helpful tolisten to how it develops in
another context, so that in yourown culture we're not hidebound
(24:42):
perhaps by the way it's beendone before or there's only one
way to do it.
And I think listeningparticularly from Grant,
watching him in a very differentcontext, putting a culture.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
He's done an extraordinary work of it's grown
so fast From next to nothing toa thousand uni students or
something.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And about to plant a church into a township in his
context and I'm excited to learnabout how the training culture
he's establishing, what it lookslike.
In that context I've comeacross a church recently a
fellow called John Funnell whopastors a church called Nodfa
(25:26):
Church in Wales and it's awonderful, healthy culture.
But it's an entirely differentsetting of church and at grants
like that and these guys likethat, I mean what you're
experiencing in South America isvery different from central
London and it makes me questionmy own assumptions about what a
healthy culture looks like andworking with these guys is
(25:47):
hugely helpful for that whatabout you?
Speaker 4 (25:50):
if I'm honest, the thing that's really struck out
to me is it's it's just soobvious and we're doing the same
thing with different language.
I'm not going to say it again,no, no, no.
That is the thing that I thinkI've just learned, just thinking
to increase your confidence.
Yeah yeah.
I was pretty confident to startwith, but I feel like it's just
(26:11):
seeing it here, there andeverywhere, people doing exactly
the same thing in differentcontexts.
It's of the Lord, it just works.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
We have a brother with us, danny Rulander from
Northern UK, lancaster yeah sothe, the, the meek, but decided
um effort, um to.
I mean he had what, not thatlong, 70 apprentices what
through, not at once?
Not at once in 10 years, butstill I a small tiny town or
(26:43):
small city and learning theintentionality back to Matt's
point to keep on doing this anddon't give up.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
On a very simple level, there are 10 of us,
something I mean it's wonderfulto come away somewhere,
especially Sydney, to work andlearn together, but it's so
enriching to do things together.
We're talking about quitenarrow conviction, alignment,
it's not like, but it's unityaround strategy, around vision,
(27:24):
and it's global.
The commission of the LordJesus is global.
That doesn't mean to say you'vegot to not focus on your own
context, but there will alwaysbe people that train in our
context, that travel to otherparts of the world, and there
will always be people that comefrom South America, the US,
(27:44):
malaysia, australia to London,and that's a rich thing and a
wonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
My guests on the Pastor's Heartthis afternoon Robin Sidser
from the Proclamation Trust inthe United Kingdom.
Matt Pope from Santiago, chile.
He's working with pastorsacross five countries in Latin
America.
And Marty Sweeney from Santiago, chile.
He's working with pastorsacross five countries in Latin
America.
And Marty Sweeney fromCleveland, ohio.
He is pastor of training at OldNorth Church.
(28:11):
My name is Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
a training culture for the next generation.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
Thanks for joining us.
Churches that are producing newministers for the next
generation.
Last week, on the pastor'sheart, we spoke to orlando sayer
about the drop in candidatesfor ministry and then the
consequential closure of anumber of theological colleges.
This week in Sydney, a group ofevangelical movement leaders
(00:31):
have gathered from across theworld to sharpen each other in
the process of raising up a newgeneration of gospel ministers.
Three of those symposiumparticipants are with us this
afternoon.
Robin Sidserth is with us fromthe Proclamation Trust in the
United Kingdom.
Matt Pope is here from Santiagoin Chile.
He pastors well pastors himself, but is also working with
(00:55):
pastors from five countries inLatin America.
He's formerly of St Ebbs inOxford in the UK.
And Marty Sweeney is with us aswell, from Cleveland, ohio,
pastor of training at Old NorthChurch.
Robin, let's start with you andyour pastor's heart.
And well, firstly, just thisweek, meeting with pastors from
(01:19):
across the world who are engagedin this same process, I take it
it's been extraordinarilystimulating.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you, dominic.
Thank you for having us on.
This is my first visit toSydney and it's been a wonderful
experience for me, meeting withmy colleagues from around the
world.
But let me just highlightwhat's most encouraged me,
perhaps meeting two young mencalled Harry.
(01:46):
Both called Harry, both withthe great privilege of growing
up in Christian homes.
But to meet these two young men, zealous, hungry, humble to
serve the Lord with their lives,is such an encouragement when
you're here to think togetherabout how to address the crisis
(02:07):
we're facing, certainly in theUK, to raise up gospel workers,
and that's been a hugelyinspiring thing.
Not just my colleagues fromaround the world, but the
generation of people that we'reseeking to pray will give their
lives to gospel work, becauseyou spent last weekend with I
don't know how many hundreds ofuni students yeah, 350, yeah 350
(02:28):
uni students from theUniversity of New South Wales
who are considering gospelministry full-time.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Matt, you are nodding .
That must have done you good.
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I think the big thing that's encouraged my heart
since we've been here justspending time with these guys
and others doing basically thesame thing all around the world
discipling people and disciplingpeople to help people disciple
others and just seeing actuallythe model works like what Jesus
did.
What the Vine Project talksabout is just working all around
the world and it's been justthrilling to know that God's
(03:03):
plan is just popping upeverywhere, producing leaders
everywhere that are runningchurches.
I'm delighted.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Marty, yes, I think they.
I come from a very small areaoutside of Cleveland Ohio, and
our metropolitan area is just afew hundred thousand people, and
yet we still have tens ofthousands of people who are lost
.
And so I know it's oft used atthe end of Matthew 9, the
harvest is plentiful, but thelaborers are few.
(03:29):
But we need more laborers forthe harvest, and so my heart is
to see those people reached forJesus, and so we need more
workers.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
What surprised you as you come here, man.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
If I'm honest, I found it very comfortable coming
from Santiago.
I just think the life is verycomfortable.
The amount of restaurants here,man, if I'm honest, I found it
very comfortable coming fromSantiago.
I just think the life is verycomfortable.
The amount of restaurants here,there and everywhere.
It just it was a shock to me ifI'm honest, the affluence, the
comfort.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think for me Hard to long for heaven when you.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Just a shock, I don't know.
Obviously there's suffering andpain and everything in people's
lives.
That's what makes us long forheaven.
But uh, coming here flying in,and I was in newtown, I wasn't
in the poshest of areas and itjust felt like, wow, this is uh,
this is different robin I thinkone thing that struck me,
dominic because, is a kind ofintentionality.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Um, I came, uh, you know, way back hearing about the
10 vision of philip and andothers.
It's a bold vision, it's a clearvision and so much has happened
here for good and bless theworld.
And and now that vision isn'tbeing changed, it, it's just
(04:43):
being given impetus, like thedouble where we are and move on
by, so on and so forth.
And what I picked up is none ofthe sense of complacency there
might be, but amongst that groupup the mountain in the rain,
just a real hunger and a realdrive to step up and to reach
out and to reach forward to seemore people trained for gospel
(05:05):
work.
I didn't really know what toexpect, but that has really
struck me that there is a realgodly ambition, a humble godly
ambition to multiply workers forthis country and around the
world.
And I want to take some of thatinfectious, confident
enthusiasm back to a toughcontext in the UK.
It's not easy, but the Lordpromises to build his church and
(05:30):
we pray that he will raise up ageneration of workers and we
want to try and shape thepathways to enable him to do
that.
So I'll take back a big dose ofconfidence from time here.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Marty, I had never been to UNSW and so spending a
whole day there on Wednesday.
We were with hundreds ofstudents who've been in lectures
all week doing work, and yetthey would show up for an hour
long exposition, an hour longtraining core seminar.
It was so encouraging.
I was surprised that you knowit's easy to have that, you know
(06:06):
generational condescension andthink the gen z, gen z, gen z.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
uh, I've given it to you who says yeah, sorry about
that, I'll contextualize gen zthat they're out there crossing
the culture.
To me that's good for anamerican right.
Yeah, you don't.
You normally cross the culture.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
To me that's good for an American right, yeah, you
normally cross the culture, butto see them giving up a
Wednesday afternoon witheverything else they have, going
on to listen, learn, and to seethe student workers there at
Uni Church and CBS do the work,it was wonderfully surprising.
I heard about it but I neversaw it.
It was great, right, yeah, butI never saw it.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
It was great, Right.
Yeah, Robin, we had Orlandohere a week ago and he led that
Yanton report in the UnitedKingdom and you were just saying
to me a moment ago that thatreport when it was presented a
year ago at that conferencecentre to that group in the UK,
(07:04):
that really marked a turning tothat group in the UK.
That really marked a turningpoint in discussion in the
United Kingdom.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Could you unpack that for us?
Yeah, I think in the past lotsof events have been convened to
talk about how we arrest thedecline, for example, but that
day maybe 40 or 50 of usgathered, I can't remember
exactly.
There was a kind of spirit ofhumility.
I remember the fellow whokicked the day off, stood up and
(07:35):
did a short Bible expositionand he'd had an operation, I
think, on his leg or his footand he had a stick and it was
very it kind of described how wefelt.
We were moved by it.
It was a godly day, a humbleday.
Somebody Adrian Reynolds, whoworks for the FIC, said we've
lost the confidence thatministry is a noble task.
(07:57):
All these problems and over thecourse of the day there began
to be a sense that we can moveforward much better working
together than we can on our own.
Now we left the day encouraged,but what's happened since is
concrete expression of that day.
And what's happened since is 16or so network leaders or
(08:23):
stakeholders in training havebegun to work together in the UK
they represent the trainingcolleges, the training churches,
the hub churches to develop akind of vision and strategy, a
common pathway to think aboutraising up gospel workers and in
God's it's working.
(08:44):
Now we have in the UK a contextwhich is pretty close to a
crisis in the last few years.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I've watched from a far stretch of my head.
You're well aware of that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And, ironically, when the Church of England, for
example, is in such a difficultplace, it would be hugely
tempting to say let's wait andsee what the future will be.
But raising up a generation ofworkers, creating pathways for
them through this complex time,along with a vibrant FIC, folks
(09:19):
like Orlando and others, 20years and a whole generation
will be lost, and thatcollaborative work is happening
and that is hugely.
It's not easy, but it'shappening and it's encouraging,
and being out here with some ofthe folks involved in that, like
(09:42):
Orlando, has helped us.
You know, when you come awayfrom your own context, you can
see it with freshness andclarity and we go back with that
real, buoyant encouragement.
The other thing about cominghere is there's a very important
bridge in the world as far asUK evangelicalism is concerned
and that's Sydney and Australia.
Keep going Now.
(10:03):
Peter Philip Jensen, coleMarshall, dick Lucas, john Stott
, and all my instincts, havingbeen here, is that bridge
between Sydney and the UK andSouth Africa and South America
will be critically importantgoing forward.
(10:23):
It's just partnership, such avital thing, and to come here
and discover that people hereare thinking and praying the
same thing, not to come out of acrisis like us, but to take all
the growth that you have and totake a step on.
It might just be that God isaligning something across the
world that's exciting.
So that was a significant day.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
It was a supernatural event, it was a moving day and
it was a day of real gospelunity and they've been rare in
in in the uk and we are workingtogether as leaders, which is
great matt, you are in san diego, you've got an eye for five
(11:07):
South American countries, butyou've also got your roots back
in Oxford and 10 years at StEbbs, and so I mean, let's get
your reflections about the UK,but also about Latin America.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Well, I think it's exactly what Robin was saying.
But the reality is the thingthat's been exciting in Latin
America here seeing movement,seeing progression is actually
the model that the Bible givesus is really simple.
So it starts with.
I'm not saying ministry issimple, of course ministry's got
complex things.
But actually how do you raiseup leaders?
Well, the church leader, oneperson, needs to start with
(11:44):
himself, just what the VineProject talks about.
You work on your ownconvictions.
You're a man in a place whereyou love the Lord, you're
praying, you're disciplingyourself, you're discipling your
family.
Step two we disciple someone,anyone, whether that's 72, like
Jesus did, or the 12, or thethree, or the one In our context
, we normally work with one ortwo or three.
(12:06):
Walk alongside someone, shareyour life with them, share your
faith with them, disciple them.
But I think the missing step inlots of our discipleship is the
next bit.
You disciple them, we disciplethem so that they can disciple
others.
So in my ministry, the stuff Ido, I've just got one line I
teach pastors.
When you're reading the Biblewith someone, just ask them, how
(12:28):
would you pass this on tosomeone else?
And that one line gets themthinking about.
It.
Gets them thinking about oh, Ineed to be passing this on, and
then I encourage them to do itwith someone else.
Now often people say I've notgot the tools.
I come back to them and saywell, every week we've been
meeting, I've been asking youhow do you pass this on to
someone else?
You've been telling me you cando it easily and from that I've
(12:50):
seen small churches change,bigger churches turn around,
just by one man loving the Lord,longing that he can help
someone else, so that thatperson can help someone else.
We do all these trainings forpastors to have apprenticeships
in their churches and a questionthat used to come back to us
(13:10):
over and over again was how do Iget there?
How can I have an apprentice?
There's no one in my church tobe the apprentice.
I think the thing we've all seenin our context is you start
with anyone if they're breathingLike you start with someone and
you work hard with them.
You disciple them so that theycan disciple someone else.
You'll get leaders for all yourgroups.
(13:31):
You'll get leaders for this,that and the other.
You'll get your apprentice.
You'll get your church planter,you'll get someone to go into
college and the conference stuffwas so exciting to see Lift
Lift and I hear people say, oh,but it's university settings.
Yeah, that's amazing, but theuniversity churches aren't the
(13:52):
places.
So I've seen it work in smallchurches, medium churches, big
church, nothing to do withuniversities, and I feel, I feel
we're scared of the diagnosis.
If my church, our churches,your church isn't raising up
your own apprentices, isn'tsending your own people to
college, maybe just go verysimple, work on yourself, meet
(14:17):
with one person, small group, sothat they can meet with others.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Marty Sweeney, I'm seeing you're not over there.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Well, I just wanted to add in it was interesting In
our setting in Ohio we didn'thave a university ministry.
We started with a trainingministry, internal.
An apprenticeship grew out ofthat and then from that grew a
university ministry.
So the accusation it can onlywork there is actually reversed.
For us the university ministrygrew out of our training culture
.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And maybe it will hurt other cultures.
If you're looking for auniversity ministry to give you
your apprentices, actually thatwill fill your need now, but it
won't help the church in thelong run.
It won't help a city, and whatwe really want is the gospel to
go to the world wherever we are.
It's not just here, it'severywhere.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Roman, I think you were saying to me before that
there's a sense for the pastorto think I'm so busy, there's so
many people, I've got to dothis, I've got to do that, I've
got to do this, and there's somuch internal fire.
The whole raising up of thenext generation is somebody
else's problem and the biggerchurch's problem.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
People look back to the beginnings of the
Proclamation Trust in the UK andthe seminal addresses given by
people like Jim Packer, PhilipJensen, the mid-80s Philip came
across and he managed to saysomething profoundly important
Do what the Lord says you're todo and don't do the things the
(15:46):
Lord doesn't tell you to do.
Now, that was hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
You were there for that.
No, I was too young.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No, I wasn't there and I wasn't in that world.
But it comes to you, it getspassed on.
And that constant battle inpastoral ministry to do the
things God has given you to do.
What we've been looking at thisweek is is training and raising
up gospel workers normal orexceptional?
And what we saw is Jesustrained the 12.
(16:17):
Paul said to Timothy come withme, and he trained him and then
he sent him away.
He gave him lots of short-termmission trips on the way and the
pattern in the pastals, it'snormal pattern.
It's normal pattern.
Now I was a pastor of a churchthat grew from very little to
(16:38):
become a strong training culture.
In God's kindness, I foughtthat battle again and again and
again and again.
And there are times in pastoralministry where I wanted to be
in a training session andbecause a pastoral thing comes
on, you drop the training andyou go and sit at the bedside.
It's not either or.
But over time, when a healthyculture develops, you equip lots
(17:00):
of people to care for peoplepastorally.
Now, with me as minister, whenit was death and dying, it was
always me.
That was a precious thing to me.
But but the bible says go andmake disciples of all nations.
Equip and enable people in yourchurch to be disciple, making
(17:23):
disciples from that group.
Gospel workers to be trainedwill emerge.
Send them away.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Send them away so a healthy church is not just a
reach and a build.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's got to be a reach and a build and a train
and ascend.
When you do that, godwonderfully helps with the other
stuff.
What we're looking at in the UKis many examples of churches
with a healthy culture of trade.
Now, a number of them areuniversity churches and one
thing we said today over lunchis that perhaps if you're in a
(17:56):
university setting you've got aan extra degree of
responsibility to serve thechurch.
But there are wonderfulexamples across the uk many of
them of churches miles away fromthese settings gently, quietly
raising up gospel workers.
Another expression of that issay you did an apprenticeship in
(18:19):
one particular or you grew upin a church and experienced
somewhere else, in anotherchurch, in a suburb, whatever is
vitally important and that justcomes through partnership and
connections, giving people thatexperience.
It's a great question, dominic,because I battle with that
every day of my life as a pastor, but I thank God that talks
(18:43):
like Philip's helped me to saythis is not just an optional
thing, this is a key thing to dofor the future of the gospel.
When you look at churches thehealthy training culture the
danger is you go to the onesthat are.
I mean, we were at Campus Bible.
So it's 50 and a half years old.
It's a long time.
Some of the most inspiringstuff we're seeing.
(19:05):
You go to a church with ahealthy culture and they say
we'll go and speak to this youngminister who's one or two years
in to establishing that healthyculture and you describe what
they are doing and that'saccessible, because I can do
that, because they're startingoff.
It's not this sort of grandplan after 50 years and it is
the power of one.
They're meeting off.
It's not this sort of grandplan after 50 years and it is
the power of one.
They're meeting up with two orthree people and they're
(19:28):
beginning to create a healthyculture in their church.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
But it's intentional.
It's the intentionality Becauseone of the things people don't
really care much about America.
I know it's a typical Americansaying that but because we have
so much Christian activity, wehave so many resources.
But but because we have so muchChristian activity, we have so
many resources.
But with all that activity westill see the same rot and need
for gospel workers.
And it's the intentionality ofactually doing the work and
(19:55):
sometimes saying, brother, it'stime for you to go, put your
hand to the plow.
There's no greater joy.
And we just haven't been doingthat.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Haven't been doing that.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, we know, I know .
So we have colleges,undergraduate colleges that you
can go and major in, ministryChristian colleges as we would
call them and I have contacts ina number of them and they're
all saying that the enrollmentis way down, for young men
especially.
So we have the same issues,maybe not in magnitude, but
it'll come.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I'm going to ask each of you what's a direct
application that you're takingback from this week to your
context and you're going to sayyou know what.
I'm going to raise that with myteam.
I'm going to see if we can dothis.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
So the change that has just really opened my eyes.
We went to a training culturefellowship at Moore College and
it was beautiful.
Just some people there justtalking about how we can keep
this culture going, how we cando it in our own churches, how
we can expand it.
Basically, all my work isone-to-one or one-to-two or
one-to-three with pastors, justgetting alongside and helping
(21:04):
them, bringing them to a placewhere they can start doing it,
and it's been amazing seeingpastors changing a church
culture little by little as theymeet with one, two people.
To train them, to train others.
That's the key to train others.
I hope I've said that enough.
To train others.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
You have said that about me.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
But the thing that's opened my eyes to that this week
is the doing it in groups.
So I'm going to arrange abarbecue in the next couple of
weeks and get six, seven, eightof them around my house and say
come on, guys, let's justencourage each other with our
stories, do it together andinvite your friends to this to
see it.
For me, that was the.
For me.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Christian leadership can often come in your sort of
mid-50s.
You get into a job whatever atthat sort of age and stage of
life.
One thing that we're beginningto see in the uk is working with
different generations ofleaders is a powerful thing.
So when you speak to the thepeople in the first couple of
years of their ministry andembrace what they're saying,
they haven't had time yet to todevelop, but some of them are
(22:05):
hugely inspirational.
And in the first couple ofyears of their ministry and
embrace what they're saying,they haven't had time yet to
develop, but some of them arehugely inspirational.
And in the UK context and I'lltake this back back to Harry
that I mentioned at thebeginning is meet with the
generation in their late 20s,early 30s, people in training,
and in the UK they need oursupport.
It's really hard what thefuture is, but not just give
them our support.
Embrace them in the developmentwhat the future is, but not
just give them our support.
Embrace them in the developmentof the training culture,
(22:28):
because they'll soon be insituations of leadership.
So what I'll take back fromhere is working really
intentionally with the differentgenerations and listening to
the emerging generation ofleaders.
I mean they have inspired mehere all the generations have,
but these young leaders emergingare hugely inspiring.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Maddy.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Someone not too long ago at our church, a dear saint
at our church sent me prayerpoints from a sermon I preached
five years ago, and one of therequests was that we would raise
up an apprentice who was older,and just last year we had
someone who's?
38 years old decide to do ourapprenticeship.
I just think that's reallyencouraging about the
(23:09):
generations.
I would say the direct linefrom the gospel to evangelism,
to training.
I don't wanna just focus ontraining, but the holistic.
A number of years ago when westarted our apprenticeship, I
emailed Philip Jensen and justsaid what were your best talks
in calling people into ministry?
And he wrote me back onesentence that said preach the
(23:31):
gospel.
And I thought it was justPhilip didn't want to write me a
long email, but it took me afew years and I started to
realize it right the gospel isnot just Jesus died for my sins,
but that I'm now to give up myambitions and take on the
ambitions of Christ and havethat through line from the
gospel to the evangelistic callon into giving up a whole life
(23:54):
for the Lord.
So I want to be more clearabout that through line.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I reckon go and find his talks on 2 Corinthians 5, of
God made him who had no sin tobe sin for us.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Thank you, I'll look those up, that's your tip yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I think they're great .
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned from some of
the other guys in the symposium, from, I mean, stellenbosch or
different places in the world?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, that convictions can be expressed in
different ways.
So when you develop a trainingculture in your respective
country, it's hugely helpful tolisten to how it develops in
another context, so that in yourown culture we're not hidebound
(24:42):
perhaps by the way it's beendone before or there's only one
way to do it.
And I think listeningparticularly from Grant,
watching him in a very differentcontext, putting a culture.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
He's done an extraordinary work of it's grown
so fast From next to nothing toa thousand uni students or
something.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And about to plant a church into a township in his
context and I'm excited to learnabout how the training culture
he's establishing, what it lookslike.
In that context I've comeacross a church recently a
fellow called John Funnell whopastors a church called Nodfa
(25:26):
Church in Wales and it's awonderful, healthy culture.
But it's an entirely differentsetting of church and at grants
like that and these guys likethat, I mean what you're
experiencing in South America isvery different from central
London and it makes me questionmy own assumptions about what a
healthy culture looks like andworking with these guys is
(25:47):
hugely helpful for that whatabout you?
Speaker 4 (25:50):
if I'm honest, the thing that's really struck out
to me is it's it's just soobvious and we're doing the same
thing with different language.
I'm not going to say it again,no, no, no.
That is the thing that I thinkI've just learned, just thinking
to increase your confidence.
Yeah yeah.
I was pretty confident to startwith, but I feel like it's just
(26:11):
seeing it here, there andeverywhere, people doing exactly
the same thing in differentcontexts.
It's of the Lord, it just works.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
We have a brother with us, danny Rulander from
Northern UK, lancaster yeah sothe, the, the meek, but decided
um effort, um to.
I mean he had what, not thatlong, 70 apprentices what
through, not at once?
Not at once in 10 years, butstill I a small tiny town or
(26:43):
small city and learning theintentionality back to Matt's
point to keep on doing this anddon't give up.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
On a very simple level, there are 10 of us,
something I mean it's wonderfulto come away somewhere,
especially Sydney, to work andlearn together, but it's so
enriching to do things together.
We're talking about quitenarrow conviction, alignment,
it's not like, but it's unityaround strategy, around vision,
(27:24):
and it's global.
The commission of the LordJesus is global.
That doesn't mean to say you'vegot to not focus on your own
context, but there will alwaysbe people that train in our
context, that travel to otherparts of the world, and there
will always be people that comefrom South America, the US,
(27:44):
malaysia, australia to London,and that's a rich thing and a
wonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
My guests on the Pastor's Heartthis afternoon Robin Sidser
from the Proclamation Trust inthe United Kingdom.
Matt Pope from Santiago, chile.
He's working with pastorsacross five countries in Latin
America.
And Marty Sweeney from Santiago, chile.
He's working with pastorsacross five countries in Latin
America.
And Marty Sweeney fromCleveland, ohio.
He is pastor of training at OldNorth Church.
(28:11):
My name is Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!