The Church of England has confirmed that the Bishop of London, Dame Sarah Mullally, will take on the role of Archbishop of Canterbury — but instead of celebration, the global response has been marked by shock, disappointment, and unprecedented criticism.
Once, the Archbishop of Canterbury was recognised as the spiritual leader of the worldwide Anglican Communion — the “first among equals” for Anglicans everywhere. But that authority has been dramatically eroded in recent years, especially after the GAFCON and Global South movements declared in 2023 that they no longer recognised Canterbury’s leadership, citing the Church of England’s decision to bless same-sex relationships as a betrayal of biblical truth.
As the GAFCON Kigali Commitment put it:
“Public statements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and other leaders of the Church of England in support of same-sex blessings are a betrayal of their ordination and consecration vows to banish error and to uphold and defend the truth taught in Scripture.”
With GAFCON and the Global South together representing as much as 85% of global Anglicans, Sarah Mullally will now lead a communion that is, in practical terms, far smaller and more fractured than it was at the start of Justin Welby’s tenure.
So what does this appointment mean for the future of Anglicanism?
Joining us today are three leading voices (statements from their organisations are linked):
- Archbishop Laurent Mbanda, Primate of Rwanda and Chair of the GAFCON movement.
- Dr Lee Gatiss, Director of the Church Society in the UK.
- And Vaughan Roberts, Rector of St Ebbe’s, Oxford, and a key leader in the evangelical Alliance within the Church of England.
See also George Owers article in The Critic: The Lanyard Class Archbishop.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:08):
A special edition of the Pastors Hub today with
reaction from around the worldto news of the new Archbishop in
England.
Lawrence Bunder, Lee Gaydis, andVaughan Roberts are our guests.
It is Dominic Steele here.
There has been a strong andunprecedentedly negative
reaction to the announcement ofthe new Archbishop of
Canterbury.
The Bishop of London, SarahMillale, will take on that role.
(00:30):
In the past, the Archbishop ofCanterbury was seen as the
leader of the world's AnglicanCommunion.
But that role has beensignificantly diminished,
particularly after GAFCON andthe Global South declared in
2023 that they no longerrecognize the Archbishop of
Canterbury as the communion'sfirst among equals.
(00:51):
The GAFCON Cagali Conferencedeclared, public statements by
the Archbishop of Canterbury andother leaders of the Church of
England in support of same-sexblessings are a betrayal of
their ordination andconsecration vows to banish
error and to uphold and defendthe truth taught in Scripture.
(01:12):
We have no confidence that theArchbishop of Canterbury nor the
other instruments of communionled by him are able to provide a
godly way forward that will beacceptable to those who are
committed to truthfulness,clarity, sufficiency, and the
authority of Scripture.
The overlapping and significantGlobal South group has made
(01:35):
similar, if not stronger,comments.
And given that CAFCON and GlobalSouth represent a large
majority, up to 85% of globalAnglicans, Sarah Millale will
lead a communion that is farsmaller in practical terms than
it was at the start of JustinWelby's tenure, with many of the
larger provinces distancingthemselves from Canterbury.
(01:58):
In a moment, we will speak toArchbishop Laurent Ambanda,
Primate of Rwanda and chair ofthe GAFCON movement.
But first, who is Sarah Malale?
Well, on the line from theChurch Society in the UK, Lee
Gaitus.
Lee, there are people in ourpart of the world who have never
heard of her.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Yes, of course.
Well, um, Dame Sarah, to giveher her uh correct title, is was
actually the chief nursingofficer uh in the NHS, our
National Health Service, overhere for many years, one of the
youngest to hold that position,as I understand it, uh, before
she was ordained.
Um, and uh she did herordination training at the South
(02:38):
East Institute of TheologicalEducation, um, which is not one
of our major intellectualtheological hubs, but uh is is a
pathway into ordination.
Um, and then she she was acurate in um South Diocese in
London and a team rector thereas well for six years before
eventually being made a bishopin Crediton, down in Exeter in
(03:01):
the southwest of England, uh,where she was for three years
before becoming the Bishop ofLondon and Dean of His Majesty's
Chapels Royal, which is a sortof nice honorary title that uh
often goes with that job.
Um, she has been criticised asbeing part of the
lanyard-wearing managerial classof the Church of England.
(03:23):
As a former civil servant in theNHS, and then coming into the
church, there have beencomparisons with Paula Venels,
um the former disgraced head ofthe post office uh over here who
was also ordained.
Um I don't know how true thosethings are, um, but that is uh
one of the criticisms being madeof her that she's a managerial
(03:44):
sort of uh civil servant typebishop rather than a spiritual
leader.
She's not a theologian.
She does have experience ofordinary ministry in the Church
of England, but she has been abishop uh since 2015.
SPEAKER_03 (03:59):
That is Lee Gatis on the line there, and Lee is a
director of the Church SocietyUK, and we'll come back to Lee
in a moment.
But first reaction, and firstthe leader of global
anglicanism, the chair of GAFCONand the primate of Rwanda,
Laurent Umbanda.
Archbishop Lawrence, what isyour reaction to this news?
Not surprising, butdisappointing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Thank you very much.
Yes, it is disappointing, but uhwe welcome Sarah, and uh we
promise to pray for her.
SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
What particularly about Sarah do you find
troubling?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
What I find troubling is that she has
ignored many times support, anduh which tends to support the
contract, uh which tends to becontrary to the biblical
standard of historical Anglicanteaching, and uh this seems to
(04:55):
be uh um inconsistent and thisseems to be compromising and
this doesn't inspire trust.
SPEAKER_03 (05:03):
In your statement, you've called on Bishop Sarah to
repent.
What should she repent of?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Well, uh first of all, um GAFCON, uh the heart of
GAFCON uh matters not on thepersonality, but on the biblical
principles.
And the biblical principles, uh,GAFCON stands to uphold the
authority of scripture and umthe unchanging teaching of Jesus
(05:36):
Christ.
Now we know that uh uh fromlooking at Sarah's uh
background, um I think she hashad some compromises here and
there, and I think she seems touh um to not be extremely clear
on the teaching of thescripture.
(05:57):
In fact, I think her recordseems to be uh continuing the
way Canterbury has always doneit.
And therefore, uh I don't thinkthat leadership will help the uh
Anglican communion, but itrather continues to worsen the
situation and to feed it evenmore further.
(06:21):
Um so uh I'm not sure if we canbring the Anglican communion
together at this point.
And if it repents, and thatrepentance I'm talking about is
coming back to the authority ofscripture, is the willingness to
take a stand, a stronger stand,on the teaching of traditional
(06:44):
teaching of the scripture.
And um otherwise anything elsewould uh would lead to mistrust.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
There really has been no sign of a change in
direction from Sarah Millaleover the last few years, though.
Uh in fact, to the contrary,she's been one of the main
proponents of the living in loveand faith, the move to revise
the Church of England's teachingon sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
That's why we continue to pray, but it's still
room, you know.
God can touch anybody's heart atany time.
So uh when that happens, umwe'll be watching and we'll be
ready to to talk and see wherethings to go.
Otherwise, we have made a cleardecision in 2023.
(07:31):
It is always a standard that wehave always taken as a GAFCON
from 208.
Uh we started to um to restartthe communion and we will
continue and move forward.
SPEAKER_03 (07:44):
There really are two issues.
One is that she is unrepentantand leading away from
theological orthodoxy andfaithfulness to Jesus, but also
a second issue, whether or notsomebody from England can be
leader of global Anglicans justby the default of them occupying
the chair of St.
Augustine in Canterbury.
SPEAKER_00 (08:05):
I think someone from England can uh can be if it
tends a strong orthodox and uhview of things, and if uh they
are hoarding on the authority ofthe scripture and the
traditional teaching on marriageand um uh and and and they are
(08:26):
willing to uh to to not justtake a middle ground and
compromise.
So what is needed is a strongleader who will pull the
communion together.
But as we see it today, thatwill not happen.
Unless there is a change ofheart, a change of mind, and
that's the repentance that we'retalking about.
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
What do you think will be uh the response of the
various GAFCON primates?
No doubt you'll be invited toher installation.
Will the GAFCON primates attend?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
No, the GAFCON will not go, mainly because that is
the decision we have made longtime ago, until we see that uh
change of heart, until we seethat repentance.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
So, what would be your message to the faithful
evangelical pastor, the churchmember in the Church of England
today?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Well, pray for the the church, and know that GovCon
has open arms.
For anybody who feels like uhthey can't stand it anymore,
GovCon is home.
And uh so uh we welcome anybodywho wants to join the GovCon and
who wants to uphold theauthority of scripture and who
(09:39):
wants to hold the teaching ofJesus Christ on uh human
sexuality and uh marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (09:45):
What do you think is going to happen going forward?
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Going forward, I think uh I think that she's not
going to be able to pull theunity that she's talking about,
and therefore GovCon will lead.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
So, what would that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
What would that look like is that we will call upon
those who are of the same beliefand same stand to unite and to
continue with the AnglicanCommunion, which I believe
Kataburi has left, given wherethey have been in the past and
where they continue to be.
And her appointment is a strong,clear statement that uh they are
(10:27):
not budging, they're not uh opento to um to really repairing the
communion.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
That is the primate of Rwanda and the chair of the
GAFCON Movement, Laurent Mbanda,uh, speaking there on the
appointment of Sarah Malaly tothe position of Archbishop of
Canterbury.
And uh he says the decision ofthe Church of England to appoint
Sarah Malley is a decision tokeep on pursuing the revisionist
trajectory of Justin Welby awayfrom Orthodox biblical
(10:56):
Christianity.
Now, the Global South have alsoissued a statement saying that
they had hoped that the nextArchbishop of Canterbury would
uphold the Orthodox faith.
And given that Sarah Malale hasplayed a leading role in the
Church of England's departurefrom Anglican tradition and the
clear teaching of Scripture inmatters of marriage and
sexuality, the Global South'sposition remains one of not
(11:20):
recognizing the Archbishop ofCanterbury as the first among
equals leader of the AnglicanCommunion.
Now, in a moment, we will talkto Vaughan Roberts, Rector of
St.
Ebbs in Oxford, and a member ofthe Alliance Council within the
Church of England.
But first to Lee Gatus of theChurch Society.
Lee has been listening to thatdiscussion.
And Lee, do you agree withArchbishop Mbanda?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Well, Archbishop Mbanda, along with Justin Bardi
Arama, is um the de facto leaderof the Anglican Communion at the
moment, uh, rather than theArchbishop of Canterbury.
And I have um nothing butrespect for him and agree with
everything he said.
Um these are dark times for theChurch of England.
Uh Justin Welby, the previousArchbishop of Canterbury, led us
(12:08):
as a church down very dark pathsof safeguarding failures and
theological revisionism,managerialism in the church.
And I'm afraid that Dame Sarahwill lead us in the same
direction.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Let's come back to safeguarding in a moment, but
let's talk first abouttheological revisionism.
Uh Bishop Sarah Millale is thenew leader of the Church of
England, but critics say shedoesn't actually believe the
doctrine of the Church ofEngland.
Can can you expand on that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Well, quite.
In the um the service for theconsecration of a bishop in the
Church of England, it says, Doyou believe the doctrine of the
Christian faith as the Church ofEngland has received it?
And in your ministry, will youexpound and teach it?
And there are other questionsalong those lines.
Will you faithfully minister asthe Church of England has
received this doctrine andsacraments?
Will you teach the doctrine ofChrist as the Church of England
(13:01):
has received it?
Will you refute error?
And will you hand on entire thefaith that is entrusted to you?
And now for the third time in arow, we have appointed as
Archbishop of Canterburysomebody who will not do those
things, who cannot, in my mind,with integrity and good
conscience, say yes by the helpof God I will, to those
(13:22):
questions in the consecrationservice.
Because Dame Sarah has openly umadvocated for the LLF, uh,
LGBTQIA plus agenda within thechurch.
She is pro-choice, as Iunderstand her position on
abortion.
Um, and although she's againsteuthanasia and assisted dying,
(13:44):
as we're calling it over here,um those things give me great
pause uh and great cause forconcern that she she doesn't
believe and w won't teach thedoctrine of the Church of
England as we have received it.
But she wants to change thatdoctrine.
In fact, she's been one of theleading players in pretending
(14:04):
that we're not changing thedoctrine while actually doing
so.
You know, that Jedi mind trick.
Uh, we're not changing doctrine,she's been telling us while
they've been trying to um uhbring about one of the biggest
changes in the church's doctrinefor 500 years.
Um, when I've met her in personto talk about these things, um I
said to her that I thought whatwhat the bishops were doing was
(14:27):
illegal, it was against ourcanon law, it was against the
teaching of the church.
Would she publish the legaladvice that the bishops had
received?
And I was assured, of course,yes, we will, of course, publish
our legal advice showing howwhat we're doing is legal.
I don't think we've had thatlegal advice published.
So I have very little confidencethat we will have a change of
(14:52):
direction and a better wayforward.
I'm always optimistic andhopeful.
Um I'm hopeful rather, ratherthan optimistic.
But I really don't think thatthat is where she will lead us.
She's a revisionist and liberalon those issues.
Of course, you have to be, youhave to be uh liberal these days
in order to get ahead in thatlanyard-wearing managerial class
(15:16):
uh in in the English civilservice and so on.
SPEAKER_03 (15:19):
Let's turn now to the issues of safeguarding.
And uh when you and I firstspoke, um initially about an
hour after the announcement ofSarah Millaly's name, you said
at that point that informationwould be coming out about
safeguarding failures on SarahMillaly's watch, safeguarding
failures uh during her time asthe Bishop of London, and those
(15:39):
issues would be difficult todeal with.
And look, given that ArchbishopWelby's resignation was linked
to safeguarding failures, uh, itis astonishing that they have
appointed somebody uh who alsohad safeguarding failures on
their watch.
Now, since our initialdiscussion, I've just watched a
little segment from GeorgeConger and uh Kevin Culsen uh on
(16:02):
their Anglican Unscriptedprogram, where they've detailed
what they know about SarahMillale's safeguarding failures,
and their commentary is verystrong.
Um, they highlight oneparticularly tragic case, Father
Alan Griffin, London clergyman,who died by suicide in 2020
while under investigation, and acoroner's report strongly
(16:22):
criticizing the Diocese ofLondon.
Uh the report pointed tocareless talk, miscommunication,
confused roles andresponsibilities and delay, and
concluded that no one tookresponsibility for steering the
direction of the process fromstart to finish.
Now, those failures, thosesystemic failures, happened on
Bishop Millaly's watch, and thediocese has apologized for what
(16:44):
it described as a catalogue ofsafeguarding failures.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Now, Lee, with that context in mind, um how
significant do you thinksafeguarding issues will be for
Sarah Millalys uh there's agreat deal of information out
there on the Alan Griffin uhsuicide and the way that uh he
was handled by his diocese andby the Church of England.
I have no special insight intothat.
(17:09):
I'm not involved in that case atall.
Um, but that is only, I'mafraid, one of several
safeguarding failures thatpeople are saying have occurred
on Sarah Malale's watch inLondon.
So it's not just me saying this,um, I have no particular access
to all of those allegations.
They are online.
Um you will find them on socialmedia, um, people being very
(17:33):
clear that they they are thereis a catalogue of failings.
So much so that people weresaying beforehand that Sarah
Malally couldn't possibly be oneof the candidates for the
Archbishop's chair, because it'swell known by victims,
survivors, uh, and others withinthe institution that there have
been failings in the Diocese ofLondon on safeguarding.
(17:56):
So um I've got no particularcomment on that because I I'm
not uh um uh au fay and fullybriefed on them all, but there
are so many allegations outthere and things being said out
there that I am very surprisedmyself that after the failure of
one archbishop on safeguarding,we get another archbishop
(18:18):
another archbishop who um maywell have s similar skeletons in
the closet.
My biggest issue is the failureof spiritual safeguarding um as
well.
You know, the failures onsafeguarding to do with uh
people's well-being, uhsuicides, abuse, and so on are
extremely serious and need to behandled well.
(18:41):
But ultimately, there's aneternity in view as well, and
without the gospel being clearlyand boldly proclaimed in our
nation, many people are going toend up in far worse place in
hell.
Um, and spiritual safeguardingneeds to go on where people who
are leading us astray ineternity are not being uh
(19:04):
prohibited from ministry andsilenced.
Uh, and that's what we need.
We need the true gospel to goout, and we need the false
gospels that are all around usin the church and in the world
to be refuted.
And that spiritual safeguardingis not going to happen um under
Sarah Malali's watch.
And I I fear that the even thephysical, mental, and emotional
(19:26):
safeguarding that we need um mayalso suffer.
I may be wrong, lessons may havebeen learned on the the latter,
but let's see.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Let's just go to this issue of the lanyard class,
Archbishop.
And uh George Owers has writtena fascinating article in
thecritic.co.uk.
And I thought I might just readtwo paragraphs of that article
to you and uh ask you torespond.
He says, It appears to be agreat gift of providence that
Justin Welby stepped down asArchbishop of Canterbury, just
(19:58):
as the quiet revival gatheredsteam in the UK and the cultural
moment was changing.
New atheism is cringe,everyone's read Dominion by Tom
Holland.
Many can see that what's comeafter Christian hegemony is far
worse.
People are looking for somethingdifferent.
The time was ripe for a newArchbishop of Canterbury, well
placed to exploit this newatmosphere, a theological
(20:20):
heavyweight and spiritual bighitter who could speak more
traditional, uncompromisinglanguage, tone down the Church
of England's invariablyprogressive mood music, and
challenge the church's creepingculture of bland managerialism.
And then George Owers goes on tosay, if I were to try to imagine
(20:41):
a candidate for the newArchbishop of Canterbury, who is
the furthest away from this, theworst and least suitable
replacement, I'd pick somebody,a former state bureaucrat, who'd
made an entire career out ofsome sort of bland HR
department-inspiredmanagerialism that is destroying
the church, probably a seniorcivil servant in, say, the NHS.
(21:05):
They'd be on the record ashaving every tick box, lazy,
progressive political andtheological opinion imaginable.
They would have lived and workedin London for most of their
life, be a thoroughgoingmetropolitan, they'd have no
record of any serioustheological or scholarly works,
and that they would bethoroughly intellectually
mediocre.
Whoops.
I just described the personannounced as the new Archbishop
(21:26):
of Canterbury, Sarah Malale.
Lee Gatus, can you comment?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Characteristically salty words from George there,
um, and very well put.
Um there is supposedly a quietrevival going on um in England.
That's what we're being told bysome reports, and from anecdotal
evidence I've heard as well.
Um I fear that this appointmentof an Archbishop of Canterbury
like Sarah Malale um will notaid that quiet revival.
(21:56):
Um and it will possibly ensurethat the Church of England
misses out on any fruit fromthat revival.
Because many people are lookingfor moral uh stability, uh
traditional ethics andunderstanding of the universe,
and they're looking for arelationship with Jesus as
taught in the Bible.
(22:17):
Sarah Malley is not going toparticularly promote that.
Uh we're going to have all sortsof other issues promoted and
defended against.
Um so the Church of England willmiss out.
The quiet revival, if God isdoing that, will happen outside
of much of the Church ofEngland.
(22:37):
Will she enable it to uh befostered within those parts of
the Church of England that aremore traditional, conservative,
evangelical, gospel promotingplaces?
I hope so.
She does have some form um in apragmatic, mutual flourishing
sort of approach to enabling thebishop the Bishop of Ebbsfleet's
(22:58):
ministry to uh to flourish, forexample, and that is a good
thing.
I hope that that will continue.
But I mean the Bishop ofEbbsfleet is vastly overworked,
as an official report um uh toldus last week.
And we need at least two bishopslike that.
And I've been saying for yearsthat to be proportional and
fair, we should have twelvebishops like the Bishop of
(23:19):
Ebsfleet, who are traditionalconservative evangelicals.
Um that's our proportion ongeneral synod, so why can't we
have that number of bishopsactually leading us?
Um so that's what we would needfor the real quiet revival to
take off.
Uh, more gospel believing,gospel preaching, bold
evangelists in our positions ofsenior leadership.
(23:40):
Um, if we don't have them, Godwill still do his work.
It will happen on the ground insome Church of England churches
and in many other churches.
I I'm afraid some of that quietrevival is being harnessed by
the Roman Catholic Church inEngland.
Um, and you can also see it insome vibrant Pentecostal
churches, too.
I wish we had more of it in theChurch of England, and uh we
(24:02):
will get it in those parts thatare conservative, evangelical,
um, but not in the Sarah Malaletype churches.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
That is Lee Gatus from the Church Society UK.
Let's go to Vaughan Roberts, therector of St.
Ebbs in Oxford, and a member ofthe Alliance, the major group
representing the big coalitionof people across the Church of
England who are opposed to therevisionist Welby Malalee
trajectory.
Um Vaughan Roberts, where doesthis appointment of Sarah
(24:33):
Malalie leave you in theAlliance?
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Well, it leaves us exactly where we were before.
Um Bishop Sarah was one of theleaders of the of the direction
of travel, um, which introducedwhat we know as LLF, Living in
Life of Faith, and resulted inthe same-sex blessings.
So that that's the problem we'rein.
And um they felt, I think, thatthey could move in their minds a
(24:58):
little way in allowing for theblessings of of same-sex unions
and um and hold everyonetogether.
And the reality is um it's notholding everyone together,
everyone's upset.
So liberals are feeling this isvery frustrating.
We've got a half-hearted littlesemi-blessing, but we don't have
equal marriage, which is what wewant.
(25:18):
And those of us who areconvinced that the Bible teaches
that the place of sex is for themarriage of man and woman feel
that de facto we've changed ourdoctrine and we can't move
forward together in unity arounda changed doctrine.
And so um big in her intray umis to deal with this mess, and
(25:39):
there's no easy way of dealingwith it.
And of course, what we want isrepentance and uh to go back.
Um, but if there's adetermination to keep moving
forward, we will need asettlement.
So that's what we're looking forfor her, a settlement which
keeps in the integrity of ourdoctrine and um does not require
us to walk in fellowship withthose who've departed from the
(26:02):
apostolic faith.
So we are where we were beforethis appointment.
It's interesting that that thereseems to be a preparedness to um
to shift on the apostolic faithum when it comes to marriage,
but to be unshifting on churchorder and this idea that there
needs to be one bishop for eachgeogeographic uh location, and
(26:25):
and that somehow is absolutelyimmovable, but will shift on
doctrine.
And at the moment, uh she's theimpression I I get is that she,
like most of the bishops, wouldbe very, very reluctant indeed
to give up any ground on that.
And so we're I think we'relikely to face impasse.
But I've always felt that theonly way there's likely to be
(26:47):
change is that if um if thealternative seems worse than
giving up some kind ofjurisdiction, and I'm confident
that the alternative will beworse because the Church of
England will just beungovernable, it will break
down.
But that'll take a while to toplay out and it will be big in
her inbox.
SPEAKER_03 (27:07):
Aaron Powell What she's saying makes a lot of
sense.
I'm only prepared to change ifthe pain of not changing is
greater than the pain ofchanging.
Uh speak to me about what thepain of not changing is going to
look like in this first seasonof her term, if she won't
change.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
Well, it's it's gonna happen very quickly
because we're told that um thisautumn the bishops will need to
decide where they're wherethey're going with this LLF
project, which is hit thebuffers.
Um they've not been able todeliver what they promised a
year ago, uh which was atrajectory towards same-sex
marriage for clergy andso-called standalone distinct
(27:45):
same-sex blessing services, andthey haven't happened, and
there's a lot of pressure forthem to happen, and nor have
they delivered on what theypromised, which was some kind of
provision for those of us who inconscience would need a distinct
uh form of episcopal oversight.
They haven't delivered on any ofthat.
So what are they gonna do?
And if they shift in anydirection forward, if they they
(28:08):
they try for same-sex marriage,which will be very hard for them
to do because it's clearly uhillegal, um, it's gonna against
go against doctrine.
They'd need two-thirds majorityto change that.
If they change any of thesethings, or if they cease to
exercise discipline and don'tformally change it, but just
say, well, we're not we're gonnaturn a blind eye, then I'm
(28:29):
confident that a very largegrouping across the Church of
England will take the kind ofactions that churches like ours
at St.
Ebbs have already taken inrelation to directing money only
towards uh those who hold to theOrthodox faith, uh, requiring
alternative episcopal oversight,and saying we're going to send
(28:51):
our ordinance in a differentdirection and not through
liberal diocesans.
That that will happen.
So there will be what theAlliance has already talked
about as a a de facto parallelprovince that will accelerate,
I'm I'm confident of it.
And just a week ago, asignificant little grouping of
leaders of churches from acrossthe new wine network, the
(29:14):
renewed network that I'm partof, the HTB network, um, a small
group of us agreed to do thesame things.
And um that I'm confident willroll out.
SPEAKER_03 (29:24):
I'm just thinking about episcopal oversight and
the position of the Bishop ofEbsfleet.
Uh he, of course, responsiblefor pastoral oversight of
complementarians within theChurch of England, uh serving in
dioceses led by revisionistbishops.
Uh in the past, the Bishop ofEbbsfleet had a line manager in
(29:44):
the Archbishop of Canterbury,who was male, but he is now in
an even more difficult positionas a complementarian.
Um how do you see a way forwardthere?
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Yeah, well, Bishop Rob's a very wise man and and
and a man of great integrity,and and I know that'll be.
A huge thing that he will needto engage with.
And clearly that is a problem.
If we we need male oversight,well, that'll need to be sorted.
But there's a bigger problem.
And the bigger problem is beyondthe question of male and female
(30:19):
is the sexuality thing, which isgoing to an issue of fundamental
faith.
And the bigger problem is youmight have a male liberal
bishop, and if they say, well,you can operate under a
suffragan bishop who's orthodox,that doesn't work.
So you might say, well, itdoesn't work for Rob if he's
under a female archbishop, butit doesn't work for anyone if
(30:42):
they're what they're trying tooffer, the most they're trying
to offer, is a um, oh well, youcan have an Orthodox bishop
under the author authority ofthe diocesan who may be liberal,
and that's a problem for all ofus.
So what Rob is facing now is aproblem that we're all facing
across the Church of Englandwith the majority of the bishops
(31:04):
pushing in a liberal direction.
And that's why we're saying thiswon't work.
It won't work for him now, butit won't work for all of us
without what we're calling foris a triple O system.
Orthodox, ordinary oversight.
Now, ordinary is a jargon wordthat means distinct
jurisdiction, so not some kindof orthodox oversight under a
(31:27):
liberal bishop, but actuallythis kind of oversight that has
jurisdiction.
And that is the settlement thatwe're going to need.
And without it, I'm afraid itit's it's going to be very, very
difficult in the days ahead, andwe will have to move in the
parallel direction.
Of course, what we're longingfor is to keep doing the work of
the gospel on the ground.
(31:47):
And there's so much good stuffgoing on in the Church of
England, and we wanted tocontinue.
This is a massive distraction,but for the sake of what we long
to be doing, which is reachingpeople with the good news of
Jesus, we've got to keep pushingon.
SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
That is Vaughan Roberts of St.
Ebbs in Oxford and a member ofthe Alliance, uh uh a movement
within the Church of England.
Their website says we're anetwork of networks within the
Church of England, committed toour Anglican heritage of faith,
holding to the received teachingof the Church of England and
part of the one Holy Catholicand Apostolic Church.
(32:20):
Our guests on this specialedition of the Pastor's Heart,
Laurent Umbanda, Lee Gaidis, andVaughn Roberts.
And this special editionreplaces our regular episode
this week.
And we will see you for thePastor's Heart the following
Tuesday afternoon.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Thanks for joining us.
A special edition of the Pastors Hub today with
reaction from around the worldto news of the new Archbishop in
England.
Lawrence Bunder, Lee Gaydis, andVaughan Roberts are our guests.
It is Dominic Steele here.
There has been a strong andunprecedentedly negative
reaction to the announcement ofthe new Archbishop of
Canterbury.
The Bishop of London, SarahMillale, will take on that role.
(00:30):
In the past, the Archbishop ofCanterbury was seen as the
leader of the world's AnglicanCommunion.
But that role has beensignificantly diminished,
particularly after GAFCON andthe Global South declared in
2023 that they no longerrecognize the Archbishop of
Canterbury as the communion'sfirst among equals.
(00:51):
The GAFCON Cagali Conferencedeclared, public statements by
the Archbishop of Canterbury andother leaders of the Church of
England in support of same-sexblessings are a betrayal of
their ordination andconsecration vows to banish
error and to uphold and defendthe truth taught in Scripture.
(01:12):
We have no confidence that theArchbishop of Canterbury nor the
other instruments of communionled by him are able to provide a
godly way forward that will beacceptable to those who are
committed to truthfulness,clarity, sufficiency, and the
authority of Scripture.
The overlapping and significantGlobal South group has made
(01:35):
similar, if not stronger,comments.
And given that CAFCON and GlobalSouth represent a large
majority, up to 85% of globalAnglicans, Sarah Millale will
lead a communion that is farsmaller in practical terms than
it was at the start of JustinWelby's tenure, with many of the
larger provinces distancingthemselves from Canterbury.
(01:58):
In a moment, we will speak toArchbishop Laurent Ambanda,
Primate of Rwanda and chair ofthe GAFCON movement.
But first, who is Sarah Malale?
Well, on the line from theChurch Society in the UK, Lee
Gaitus.
Lee, there are people in ourpart of the world who have never
heard of her.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Yes, of course.
Well, um, Dame Sarah, to giveher her uh correct title, is was
actually the chief nursingofficer uh in the NHS, our
National Health Service, overhere for many years, one of the
youngest to hold that position,as I understand it, uh, before
she was ordained.
Um, and uh she did herordination training at the South
(02:38):
East Institute of TheologicalEducation, um, which is not one
of our major intellectualtheological hubs, but uh is is a
pathway into ordination.
Um, and then she she was acurate in um South Diocese in
London and a team rector thereas well for six years before
eventually being made a bishopin Crediton, down in Exeter in
(03:01):
the southwest of England, uh,where she was for three years
before becoming the Bishop ofLondon and Dean of His Majesty's
Chapels Royal, which is a sortof nice honorary title that uh
often goes with that job.
Um, she has been criticised asbeing part of the
lanyard-wearing managerial classof the Church of England.
(03:23):
As a former civil servant in theNHS, and then coming into the
church, there have beencomparisons with Paula Venels,
um the former disgraced head ofthe post office uh over here who
was also ordained.
Um I don't know how true thosethings are, um, but that is uh
one of the criticisms being madeof her that she's a managerial
(03:44):
sort of uh civil servant typebishop rather than a spiritual
leader.
She's not a theologian.
She does have experience ofordinary ministry in the Church
of England, but she has been abishop uh since 2015.
SPEAKER_03 (03:59):
That is Lee Gatis on the line there, and Lee is a
director of the Church SocietyUK, and we'll come back to Lee
in a moment.
But first reaction, and firstthe leader of global
anglicanism, the chair of GAFCONand the primate of Rwanda,
Laurent Umbanda.
Archbishop Lawrence, what isyour reaction to this news?
Not surprising, butdisappointing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Thank you very much.
Yes, it is disappointing, but uhwe welcome Sarah, and uh we
promise to pray for her.
SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
What particularly about Sarah do you find
troubling?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
What I find troubling is that she has
ignored many times support, anduh which tends to support the
contract, uh which tends to becontrary to the biblical
standard of historical Anglicanteaching, and uh this seems to
(04:55):
be uh um inconsistent and thisseems to be compromising and
this doesn't inspire trust.
SPEAKER_03 (05:03):
In your statement, you've called on Bishop Sarah to
repent.
What should she repent of?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Well, uh first of all, um GAFCON, uh the heart of
GAFCON uh matters not on thepersonality, but on the biblical
principles.
And the biblical principles, uh,GAFCON stands to uphold the
authority of scripture and umthe unchanging teaching of Jesus
(05:36):
Christ.
Now we know that uh uh fromlooking at Sarah's uh
background, um I think she hashad some compromises here and
there, and I think she seems touh um to not be extremely clear
on the teaching of thescripture.
(05:57):
In fact, I think her recordseems to be uh continuing the
way Canterbury has always doneit.
And therefore, uh I don't thinkthat leadership will help the uh
Anglican communion, but itrather continues to worsen the
situation and to feed it evenmore further.
(06:21):
Um so uh I'm not sure if we canbring the Anglican communion
together at this point.
And if it repents, and thatrepentance I'm talking about is
coming back to the authority ofscripture, is the willingness to
take a stand, a stronger stand,on the teaching of traditional
(06:44):
teaching of the scripture.
And um otherwise anything elsewould uh would lead to mistrust.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
There really has been no sign of a change in
direction from Sarah Millaleover the last few years, though.
Uh in fact, to the contrary,she's been one of the main
proponents of the living in loveand faith, the move to revise
the Church of England's teachingon sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
That's why we continue to pray, but it's still
room, you know.
God can touch anybody's heart atany time.
So uh when that happens, umwe'll be watching and we'll be
ready to to talk and see wherethings to go.
Otherwise, we have made a cleardecision in 2023.
(07:31):
It is always a standard that wehave always taken as a GAFCON
from 208.
Uh we started to um to restartthe communion and we will
continue and move forward.
SPEAKER_03 (07:44):
There really are two issues.
One is that she is unrepentantand leading away from
theological orthodoxy andfaithfulness to Jesus, but also
a second issue, whether or notsomebody from England can be
leader of global Anglicans justby the default of them occupying
the chair of St.
Augustine in Canterbury.
SPEAKER_00 (08:05):
I think someone from England can uh can be if it
tends a strong orthodox and uhview of things, and if uh they
are hoarding on the authority ofthe scripture and the
traditional teaching on marriageand um uh and and and they are
(08:26):
willing to uh to to not justtake a middle ground and
compromise.
So what is needed is a strongleader who will pull the
communion together.
But as we see it today, thatwill not happen.
Unless there is a change ofheart, a change of mind, and
that's the repentance that we'retalking about.
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
What do you think will be uh the response of the
various GAFCON primates?
No doubt you'll be invited toher installation.
Will the GAFCON primates attend?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
No, the GAFCON will not go, mainly because that is
the decision we have made longtime ago, until we see that uh
change of heart, until we seethat repentance.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
So, what would be your message to the faithful
evangelical pastor, the churchmember in the Church of England
today?
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Well, pray for the the church, and know that GovCon
has open arms.
For anybody who feels like uhthey can't stand it anymore,
GovCon is home.
And uh so uh we welcome anybodywho wants to join the GovCon and
who wants to uphold theauthority of scripture and who
(09:39):
wants to hold the teaching ofJesus Christ on uh human
sexuality and uh marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (09:45):
What do you think is going to happen going forward?
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Going forward, I think uh I think that she's not
going to be able to pull theunity that she's talking about,
and therefore GovCon will lead.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
So, what would that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
What would that look like is that we will call upon
those who are of the same beliefand same stand to unite and to
continue with the AnglicanCommunion, which I believe
Kataburi has left, given wherethey have been in the past and
where they continue to be.
And her appointment is a strong,clear statement that uh they are
(10:27):
not budging, they're not uh opento to um to really repairing the
communion.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
That is the primate of Rwanda and the chair of the
GAFCON Movement, Laurent Mbanda,uh, speaking there on the
appointment of Sarah Malaly tothe position of Archbishop of
Canterbury.
And uh he says the decision ofthe Church of England to appoint
Sarah Malley is a decision tokeep on pursuing the revisionist
trajectory of Justin Welby awayfrom Orthodox biblical
(10:56):
Christianity.
Now, the Global South have alsoissued a statement saying that
they had hoped that the nextArchbishop of Canterbury would
uphold the Orthodox faith.
And given that Sarah Malale hasplayed a leading role in the
Church of England's departurefrom Anglican tradition and the
clear teaching of Scripture inmatters of marriage and
sexuality, the Global South'sposition remains one of not
(11:20):
recognizing the Archbishop ofCanterbury as the first among
equals leader of the AnglicanCommunion.
Now, in a moment, we will talkto Vaughan Roberts, Rector of
St.
Ebbs in Oxford, and a member ofthe Alliance Council within the
Church of England.
But first to Lee Gatus of theChurch Society.
Lee has been listening to thatdiscussion.
And Lee, do you agree withArchbishop Mbanda?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Well, Archbishop Mbanda, along with Justin Bardi
Arama, is um the de facto leaderof the Anglican Communion at the
moment, uh, rather than theArchbishop of Canterbury.
And I have um nothing butrespect for him and agree with
everything he said.
Um these are dark times for theChurch of England.
Uh Justin Welby, the previousArchbishop of Canterbury, led us
(12:08):
as a church down very dark pathsof safeguarding failures and
theological revisionism,managerialism in the church.
And I'm afraid that Dame Sarahwill lead us in the same
direction.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Let's come back to safeguarding in a moment, but
let's talk first abouttheological revisionism.
Uh Bishop Sarah Millale is thenew leader of the Church of
England, but critics say shedoesn't actually believe the
doctrine of the Church ofEngland.
Can can you expand on that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Well, quite.
In the um the service for theconsecration of a bishop in the
Church of England, it says, Doyou believe the doctrine of the
Christian faith as the Church ofEngland has received it?
And in your ministry, will youexpound and teach it?
And there are other questionsalong those lines.
Will you faithfully minister asthe Church of England has
received this doctrine andsacraments?
Will you teach the doctrine ofChrist as the Church of England
(13:01):
has received it?
Will you refute error?
And will you hand on entire thefaith that is entrusted to you?
And now for the third time in arow, we have appointed as
Archbishop of Canterburysomebody who will not do those
things, who cannot, in my mind,with integrity and good
conscience, say yes by the helpof God I will, to those
(13:22):
questions in the consecrationservice.
Because Dame Sarah has openly umadvocated for the LLF, uh,
LGBTQIA plus agenda within thechurch.
She is pro-choice, as Iunderstand her position on
abortion.
Um, and although she's againsteuthanasia and assisted dying,
(13:44):
as we're calling it over here,um those things give me great
pause uh and great cause forconcern that she she doesn't
believe and w won't teach thedoctrine of the Church of
England as we have received it.
But she wants to change thatdoctrine.
In fact, she's been one of theleading players in pretending
(14:04):
that we're not changing thedoctrine while actually doing
so.
You know, that Jedi mind trick.
Uh, we're not changing doctrine,she's been telling us while
they've been trying to um uhbring about one of the biggest
changes in the church's doctrinefor 500 years.
Um, when I've met her in personto talk about these things, um I
said to her that I thought whatwhat the bishops were doing was
(14:27):
illegal, it was against ourcanon law, it was against the
teaching of the church.
Would she publish the legaladvice that the bishops had
received?
And I was assured, of course,yes, we will, of course, publish
our legal advice showing howwhat we're doing is legal.
I don't think we've had thatlegal advice published.
So I have very little confidencethat we will have a change of
(14:52):
direction and a better wayforward.
I'm always optimistic andhopeful.
Um I'm hopeful rather, ratherthan optimistic.
But I really don't think thatthat is where she will lead us.
She's a revisionist and liberalon those issues.
Of course, you have to be, youhave to be uh liberal these days
in order to get ahead in thatlanyard-wearing managerial class
(15:16):
uh in in the English civilservice and so on.
SPEAKER_03 (15:19):
Let's turn now to the issues of safeguarding.
And uh when you and I firstspoke, um initially about an
hour after the announcement ofSarah Millaly's name, you said
at that point that informationwould be coming out about
safeguarding failures on SarahMillaly's watch, safeguarding
failures uh during her time asthe Bishop of London, and those
(15:39):
issues would be difficult todeal with.
And look, given that ArchbishopWelby's resignation was linked
to safeguarding failures, uh, itis astonishing that they have
appointed somebody uh who alsohad safeguarding failures on
their watch.
Now, since our initialdiscussion, I've just watched a
little segment from GeorgeConger and uh Kevin Culsen uh on
(16:02):
their Anglican Unscriptedprogram, where they've detailed
what they know about SarahMillale's safeguarding failures,
and their commentary is verystrong.
Um, they highlight oneparticularly tragic case, Father
Alan Griffin, London clergyman,who died by suicide in 2020
while under investigation, and acoroner's report strongly
(16:22):
criticizing the Diocese ofLondon.
Uh the report pointed tocareless talk, miscommunication,
confused roles andresponsibilities and delay, and
concluded that no one tookresponsibility for steering the
direction of the process fromstart to finish.
Now, those failures, thosesystemic failures, happened on
Bishop Millaly's watch, and thediocese has apologized for what
(16:44):
it described as a catalogue ofsafeguarding failures.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Now, Lee, with that context in mind, um how
significant do you thinksafeguarding issues will be for
Sarah Millalys uh there's agreat deal of information out
there on the Alan Griffin uhsuicide and the way that uh he
was handled by his diocese andby the Church of England.
I have no special insight intothat.
(17:09):
I'm not involved in that case atall.
Um, but that is only, I'mafraid, one of several
safeguarding failures thatpeople are saying have occurred
on Sarah Malale's watch inLondon.
So it's not just me saying this,um, I have no particular access
to all of those allegations.
They are online.
Um you will find them on socialmedia, um, people being very
(17:33):
clear that they they are thereis a catalogue of failings.
So much so that people weresaying beforehand that Sarah
Malally couldn't possibly be oneof the candidates for the
Archbishop's chair, because it'swell known by victims,
survivors, uh, and others withinthe institution that there have
been failings in the Diocese ofLondon on safeguarding.
(17:56):
So um I've got no particularcomment on that because I I'm
not uh um uh au fay and fullybriefed on them all, but there
are so many allegations outthere and things being said out
there that I am very surprisedmyself that after the failure of
one archbishop on safeguarding,we get another archbishop
(18:18):
another archbishop who um maywell have s similar skeletons in
the closet.
My biggest issue is the failureof spiritual safeguarding um as
well.
You know, the failures onsafeguarding to do with uh
people's well-being, uhsuicides, abuse, and so on are
extremely serious and need to behandled well.
(18:41):
But ultimately, there's aneternity in view as well, and
without the gospel being clearlyand boldly proclaimed in our
nation, many people are going toend up in far worse place in
hell.
Um, and spiritual safeguardingneeds to go on where people who
are leading us astray ineternity are not being uh
(19:04):
prohibited from ministry andsilenced.
Uh, and that's what we need.
We need the true gospel to goout, and we need the false
gospels that are all around usin the church and in the world
to be refuted.
And that spiritual safeguardingis not going to happen um under
Sarah Malali's watch.
And I I fear that the even thephysical, mental, and emotional
(19:26):
safeguarding that we need um mayalso suffer.
I may be wrong, lessons may havebeen learned on the the latter,
but let's see.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Let's just go to this issue of the lanyard class,
Archbishop.
And uh George Owers has writtena fascinating article in
thecritic.co.uk.
And I thought I might just readtwo paragraphs of that article
to you and uh ask you torespond.
He says, It appears to be agreat gift of providence that
Justin Welby stepped down asArchbishop of Canterbury, just
(19:58):
as the quiet revival gatheredsteam in the UK and the cultural
moment was changing.
New atheism is cringe,everyone's read Dominion by Tom
Holland.
Many can see that what's comeafter Christian hegemony is far
worse.
People are looking for somethingdifferent.
The time was ripe for a newArchbishop of Canterbury, well
placed to exploit this newatmosphere, a theological
(20:20):
heavyweight and spiritual bighitter who could speak more
traditional, uncompromisinglanguage, tone down the Church
of England's invariablyprogressive mood music, and
challenge the church's creepingculture of bland managerialism.
And then George Owers goes on tosay, if I were to try to imagine
(20:41):
a candidate for the newArchbishop of Canterbury, who is
the furthest away from this, theworst and least suitable
replacement, I'd pick somebody,a former state bureaucrat, who'd
made an entire career out ofsome sort of bland HR
department-inspiredmanagerialism that is destroying
the church, probably a seniorcivil servant in, say, the NHS.
(21:05):
They'd be on the record ashaving every tick box, lazy,
progressive political andtheological opinion imaginable.
They would have lived and workedin London for most of their
life, be a thoroughgoingmetropolitan, they'd have no
record of any serioustheological or scholarly works,
and that they would bethoroughly intellectually
mediocre.
Whoops.
I just described the personannounced as the new Archbishop
(21:26):
of Canterbury, Sarah Malale.
Lee Gatus, can you comment?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Characteristically salty words from George there,
um, and very well put.
Um there is supposedly a quietrevival going on um in England.
That's what we're being told bysome reports, and from anecdotal
evidence I've heard as well.
Um I fear that this appointmentof an Archbishop of Canterbury
like Sarah Malale um will notaid that quiet revival.
(21:56):
Um and it will possibly ensurethat the Church of England
misses out on any fruit fromthat revival.
Because many people are lookingfor moral uh stability, uh
traditional ethics andunderstanding of the universe,
and they're looking for arelationship with Jesus as
taught in the Bible.
(22:17):
Sarah Malley is not going toparticularly promote that.
Uh we're going to have all sortsof other issues promoted and
defended against.
Um so the Church of England willmiss out.
The quiet revival, if God isdoing that, will happen outside
of much of the Church ofEngland.
(22:37):
Will she enable it to uh befostered within those parts of
the Church of England that aremore traditional, conservative,
evangelical, gospel promotingplaces?
I hope so.
She does have some form um in apragmatic, mutual flourishing
sort of approach to enabling thebishop the Bishop of Ebbsfleet's
(22:58):
ministry to uh to flourish, forexample, and that is a good
thing.
I hope that that will continue.
But I mean the Bishop ofEbbsfleet is vastly overworked,
as an official report um uh toldus last week.
And we need at least two bishopslike that.
And I've been saying for yearsthat to be proportional and
fair, we should have twelvebishops like the Bishop of
(23:19):
Ebsfleet, who are traditionalconservative evangelicals.
Um that's our proportion ongeneral synod, so why can't we
have that number of bishopsactually leading us?
Um so that's what we would needfor the real quiet revival to
take off.
Uh, more gospel believing,gospel preaching, bold
evangelists in our positions ofsenior leadership.
(23:40):
Um, if we don't have them, Godwill still do his work.
It will happen on the ground insome Church of England churches
and in many other churches.
I I'm afraid some of that quietrevival is being harnessed by
the Roman Catholic Church inEngland.
Um, and you can also see it insome vibrant Pentecostal
churches, too.
I wish we had more of it in theChurch of England, and uh we
(24:02):
will get it in those parts thatare conservative, evangelical,
um, but not in the Sarah Malaletype churches.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
That is Lee Gatus from the Church Society UK.
Let's go to Vaughan Roberts, therector of St.
Ebbs in Oxford, and a member ofthe Alliance, the major group
representing the big coalitionof people across the Church of
England who are opposed to therevisionist Welby Malalee
trajectory.
Um Vaughan Roberts, where doesthis appointment of Sarah
(24:33):
Malalie leave you in theAlliance?
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Well, it leaves us exactly where we were before.
Um Bishop Sarah was one of theleaders of the of the direction
of travel, um, which introducedwhat we know as LLF, Living in
Life of Faith, and resulted inthe same-sex blessings.
So that that's the problem we'rein.
And um they felt, I think, thatthey could move in their minds a
(24:58):
little way in allowing for theblessings of of same-sex unions
and um and hold everyonetogether.
And the reality is um it's notholding everyone together,
everyone's upset.
So liberals are feeling this isvery frustrating.
We've got a half-hearted littlesemi-blessing, but we don't have
equal marriage, which is what wewant.
(25:18):
And those of us who areconvinced that the Bible teaches
that the place of sex is for themarriage of man and woman feel
that de facto we've changed ourdoctrine and we can't move
forward together in unity arounda changed doctrine.
And so um big in her intray umis to deal with this mess, and
(25:39):
there's no easy way of dealingwith it.
And of course, what we want isrepentance and uh to go back.
Um, but if there's adetermination to keep moving
forward, we will need asettlement.
So that's what we're looking forfor her, a settlement which
keeps in the integrity of ourdoctrine and um does not require
us to walk in fellowship withthose who've departed from the
(26:02):
apostolic faith.
So we are where we were beforethis appointment.
It's interesting that that thereseems to be a preparedness to um
to shift on the apostolic faithum when it comes to marriage,
but to be unshifting on churchorder and this idea that there
needs to be one bishop for eachgeogeographic uh location, and
(26:25):
and that somehow is absolutelyimmovable, but will shift on
doctrine.
And at the moment, uh she's theimpression I I get is that she,
like most of the bishops, wouldbe very, very reluctant indeed
to give up any ground on that.
And so we're I think we'relikely to face impasse.
But I've always felt that theonly way there's likely to be
(26:47):
change is that if um if thealternative seems worse than
giving up some kind ofjurisdiction, and I'm confident
that the alternative will beworse because the Church of
England will just beungovernable, it will break
down.
But that'll take a while to toplay out and it will be big in
her inbox.
SPEAKER_03 (27:07):
Aaron Powell What she's saying makes a lot of
sense.
I'm only prepared to change ifthe pain of not changing is
greater than the pain ofchanging.
Uh speak to me about what thepain of not changing is going to
look like in this first seasonof her term, if she won't
change.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
Well, it's it's gonna happen very quickly
because we're told that um thisautumn the bishops will need to
decide where they're wherethey're going with this LLF
project, which is hit thebuffers.
Um they've not been able todeliver what they promised a
year ago, uh which was atrajectory towards same-sex
marriage for clergy andso-called standalone distinct
(27:45):
same-sex blessing services, andthey haven't happened, and
there's a lot of pressure forthem to happen, and nor have
they delivered on what theypromised, which was some kind of
provision for those of us who inconscience would need a distinct
uh form of episcopal oversight.
They haven't delivered on any ofthat.
So what are they gonna do?
And if they shift in anydirection forward, if they they
(28:08):
they try for same-sex marriage,which will be very hard for them
to do because it's clearly uhillegal, um, it's gonna against
go against doctrine.
They'd need two-thirds majorityto change that.
If they change any of thesethings, or if they cease to
exercise discipline and don'tformally change it, but just
say, well, we're not we're gonnaturn a blind eye, then I'm
(28:29):
confident that a very largegrouping across the Church of
England will take the kind ofactions that churches like ours
at St.
Ebbs have already taken inrelation to directing money only
towards uh those who hold to theOrthodox faith, uh, requiring
alternative episcopal oversight,and saying we're going to send
(28:51):
our ordinance in a differentdirection and not through
liberal diocesans.
That that will happen.
So there will be what theAlliance has already talked
about as a a de facto parallelprovince that will accelerate,
I'm I'm confident of it.
And just a week ago, asignificant little grouping of
leaders of churches from acrossthe new wine network, the
(29:14):
renewed network that I'm partof, the HTB network, um, a small
group of us agreed to do thesame things.
And um that I'm confident willroll out.
SPEAKER_03 (29:24):
I'm just thinking about episcopal oversight and
the position of the Bishop ofEbsfleet.
Uh he, of course, responsiblefor pastoral oversight of
complementarians within theChurch of England, uh serving in
dioceses led by revisionistbishops.
Uh in the past, the Bishop ofEbbsfleet had a line manager in
(29:44):
the Archbishop of Canterbury,who was male, but he is now in
an even more difficult positionas a complementarian.
Um how do you see a way forwardthere?
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Yeah, well, Bishop Rob's a very wise man and and
and a man of great integrity,and and I know that'll be.
A huge thing that he will needto engage with.
And clearly that is a problem.
If we we need male oversight,well, that'll need to be sorted.
But there's a bigger problem.
And the bigger problem is beyondthe question of male and female
(30:19):
is the sexuality thing, which isgoing to an issue of fundamental
faith.
And the bigger problem is youmight have a male liberal
bishop, and if they say, well,you can operate under a
suffragan bishop who's orthodox,that doesn't work.
So you might say, well, itdoesn't work for Rob if he's
under a female archbishop, butit doesn't work for anyone if
(30:42):
they're what they're trying tooffer, the most they're trying
to offer, is a um, oh well, youcan have an Orthodox bishop
under the author authority ofthe diocesan who may be liberal,
and that's a problem for all ofus.
So what Rob is facing now is aproblem that we're all facing
across the Church of Englandwith the majority of the bishops
(31:04):
pushing in a liberal direction.
And that's why we're saying thiswon't work.
It won't work for him now, butit won't work for all of us
without what we're calling foris a triple O system.
Orthodox, ordinary oversight.
Now, ordinary is a jargon wordthat means distinct
jurisdiction, so not some kindof orthodox oversight under a
(31:27):
liberal bishop, but actuallythis kind of oversight that has
jurisdiction.
And that is the settlement thatwe're going to need.
And without it, I'm afraid itit's it's going to be very, very
difficult in the days ahead, andwe will have to move in the
parallel direction.
Of course, what we're longingfor is to keep doing the work of
the gospel on the ground.
(31:47):
And there's so much good stuffgoing on in the Church of
England, and we wanted tocontinue.
This is a massive distraction,but for the sake of what we long
to be doing, which is reachingpeople with the good news of
Jesus, we've got to keep pushingon.
SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
That is Vaughan Roberts of St.
Ebbs in Oxford and a member ofthe Alliance, uh uh a movement
within the Church of England.
Their website says we're anetwork of networks within the
Church of England, committed toour Anglican heritage of faith,
holding to the received teachingof the Church of England and
part of the one Holy Catholicand Apostolic Church.
(32:20):
Our guests on this specialedition of the Pastor's Heart,
Laurent Umbanda, Lee Gaidis, andVaughn Roberts.
And this special editionreplaces our regular episode
this week.
And we will see you for thePastor's Heart the following
Tuesday afternoon.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Thanks for joining us.
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