February 17, 2025 • 33 mins
What happens when a leader operates without a clear vision. And how poetic or concrete should a vision be?
How to organise things so the overall vision cascades down through every area of church life?
What should our pastoral approach be to innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, laggards and the nos.
Biblical vision and Leadership vision: What is the difference? Why do people mangle Proverbs 29:18?
Plus infusing the church with vision, in a significant moment and especially via drip feed.
Craig Hamilton is senior pastor of Pitt Town Anglican Church and author of ‘Wisdom in Leadership.’
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart.
My name is dominic steel andtoday, five leadership myths and
misconceptions about howchurches work, plus.
Biblical vision versusleadership vision what's the
difference and why do peoplemangle proverbs 29, 18?
What happens when a leaderoperates without a clear vision,
and how poetic or concreteshould that vision be?
(00:32):
And how to organize things inyour church so that the big
overall vision cascades downthrough every area of church
life, plus pastoral approachesto the innovators, the early
adopters, the early majority,the late majority, the laggards
and the no's.
Craig Hamilton is with us.
(00:52):
He's the senior pastor ofPitttown Anglican Church in the
northwest of Sydney and well, atleast one of the books on the
shelf behind him is Wisdom inLeadership that Craig authored.
Craig, four years now as asenior minister, you've written
lots about leadership beforebecoming a senior minister, and
(01:13):
so I'm just imagining it's beenall completely smooth sailing
for you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Dominic hello, thank you, nice to be in the new
studio, great to have you.
Yes, I think what I've learnedis the things that I used to
think.
I still think, and I think themeven more and even stronger now
that I'm a senior pastor.
(01:40):
I think what I've found is thatbeing a senior leader has in
some ways been easier than beingan assistant minister, in terms
of the mechanics of the thing.
I think it's easier.
I've said for a long time, youknow, often things break in the
middle.
That's where there's a lot ofpressure, a lot of talk like a
(02:02):
lot of twisting.
It's hard, and I think it'salso true, of course, a lot of
talk like a lot of twisting.
It's hard, and I think it'salso true.
Of course, you know the fishrots from the head, so that's
true too.
But I think the mechanics areeasier as a senior pastor than
being an assistant minister.
I think what's harder is thereis no cavalry, the buck stops
(02:24):
with you.
That's harder is there is nocavalry, the buck stops with you
.
That's harder.
And I think being a seniorpastor, you are more exposed.
I think this is what I'veobserved.
You know, I spent time talkingto senior pastors, as you know
over the last 10 years or so andI think what I've seen is that
(02:47):
when the person has skippedsomething that they maybe should
have learned earlier as a teamleader maybe because they were
charismatic or they were a goodtalker or good with people they
could overcome it.
But when you become the seniorleader, those things that you
(03:16):
have overlooked earlier they areexposed.
That's what I think I've noticed.
What did you overlooked?
Many things.
I'm not good at everything.
There were aspects I think evenof just how to run a team that
I was sloppy on, that wasexposed in this kind of senior
(03:38):
pastor role that I needed tojust sharpen and be, like, more
consistent.
I think I'm pretty good atbeing a consistent person, but
there was still more.
There was more room to grow.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, Myth number one the pastor needs to be involved
in everything.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yes, this is classic, right, you go to every, any
church, I would say mostchurches and most people will
think the pastor needs to beinvolved in everything, probably
because we're so respected andloved and appreciated and people
want and value what we think,and so the pastor, he, should be
(04:19):
involved in this, whether it'sa senior pastor or anyone else.
You know, she, she, she shouldbe involved, he should be
involved, and it's.
It's just not true.
It's just not true.
You know the churches wherethey ask the pastor what flowers
he likes and he says I don'tknow, I like birds of paradise.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I mean, I just think for myself.
Yesterday I had a conversationwith a guy who was bringing two
friends to our Introducing Godcourse last night and I was
praying with him about thesefriends that he was bringing and
he said see you tonight.
And I said, oh, no, no, no, Iwon't be there.
In fact, they watch a video ofthe talk by me.
It would be really weird for meto be sitting in the room when
(05:04):
there's a video of a talk by me.
It would be really weird for meto be sitting in the room when
there's a video on yeah.
But I thought, oh, that'sinteresting.
You've been at our church for Idon't know 10 years.
We've been running IntroducingGod pretty much every Monday
night during school term for 10years and you'd assumed I'd been
at them all.
Yeah, because it was his firsttime bringing a guest.
Yeah, whereas that's been aministry that's been delegated
(05:27):
for all that time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
How good on you.
But you know it feels like thepastor shows his value by being
there, that he values the thingby being there, but that's not
helpful or always true.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Myth number two the leadership team should never
push back on the leader oncehe's shared his opinion on
something.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
This is very difficult.
You know, the senior leader'svoice is so heavy and if I've
said what I think, well, that'swhat the pastor thinks, that's
what we should do.
But again, that is.
It's not helpful.
I'm not always right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I mean, I take it well.
I presume you like me.
I hold my view when I'm in thatkind of meeting and till
towards the end of thediscussion.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
When I'm at my best, I hold it till the end.
Sometimes I'm not at my bestand I might slip out early,
Right okay, how's it worked wellwhen they've pushed back on you
.
When it's worked well, they'llsay you know, Craig, I have a
different.
What if we did this instead?
And again, when I'm at my best,I'll say thank you, Tell me
(06:36):
more about that, I'd like tohear more.
When I'm at my worst, I willsay just no, and that's not
helpful.
It's not good for them.
It's not good for them.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
It's not good for me and you've actually got to.
You do yourself damage as aleader there because you've yeah
, I've shut them down.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I've not allowed them to speak into a thing, and
often the people in my teams arevery clever and their thoughts
are very good and I shouldlisten to them.
You know what I mean, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So tell us a moment.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Oh, there are so many .
They happen all the time.
Dominic, Come on, it's just us.
My team may watch this video.
I mean they were there, they'llknow, it's just, you know, if I
am tired or things have notgone well or it's a choice I'm a
bit afraid of often, I willcompensate by presenting more
(07:33):
certain than I really am.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So where have we come up with a better decision as a
team that you didn't bring orthat you initially disagreed
with?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean these things again.
They happen all the time.
My ideas are not always good ormy team is good at saying
that's a good idea.
What if we tweaked it like thisand did this?
And then it's like, oh, that'sactually that's way, that's way
good, we should definitely dothat.
Last night I was at my wardensand elders meeting and we were
(08:06):
talking about some things thatwe need to plan as a church and
we were going to do this thingand that would have been good.
But then one of the wardenssaid what if we included that
item that we were going to moveaway from in this other space
and then we can have all thethings that we want to have?
It was just a very elegantsolution that I hadn't thought
(08:30):
of and no one else had thoughtof.
And he just paused us and saidwhat if we did this?
And I think I was doing well,because it was immediately
obvious that was a good idea andI said that's a great idea, we
should definitely do that.
Someone write that down so wedon't forget.
So it happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Myth number three the pastor needs to care in close
proximity for every person inthe church.
Yeah, Wouldn't that be good.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
If that was true, I would love to care for every
person in my church, in closeproximity, go to their houses,
be with them, be best friendswith them.
I would like that.
I'm not sure everyone in my bebest friends with them.
I would like that.
I'm not sure everyone in mychurch would like that, but I
would like that.
But it's just not possible.
My church is not a big church,but I still couldn't be best
(09:21):
friends with every person in mychurch and care for them and be
the one that they can talkthrough all their problems with
for hours at length.
There's not enough time.
I can't be that person, but Ithink perhaps you're similar.
I would like to, because I careabout these people and normally
(09:44):
, if I care about you, I spendtime with you and I am that
person.
However, when there's 100 of usor 50 of us or 200 of us, I'm
only one person.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So people, I mean, you hear this line around that
it's the church that does that,that is, if you like, the
authentically organicallybeautiful one, where the church,
where actually love isorganized, that's criticized.
Yes, so how do you want us toorganize love?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
yeah, well, my job, I think, is to care about every
person, and what that looks likeis I care that they're being
cared for, so I don't have to bethe one who cares for them.
I couldn't possibly but how weorganize that?
Are we going to do it through agrowth group network?
(10:38):
Are we going to do it through anetwork of one-to-ones,
whatever?
Horses for courses, but so longas people are being cared for,
that's the objective.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Myth number four the church shouldn't stop doing
anything.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
We all know these churches where there's a million
, a hundred million ministries.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But I mean they're not churches out there, it's us.
I mean we struggle to actuallysay actually I don't think this
thing is working anymore becausewe know that there are people
who are invested in it and it'sgoing to be awkward
conversations, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, I think that's it.
It's not that we don't knowthat it's not being as effective
as it could be or that it's hadits time and wasn't it great
and everything has a life cycle.
It's not that we don't knowthat, it's that we're afraid,
I'm afraid, you know, to havethose kind of conversations and
talk to people and and maybehurt someone's feelings, because
(11:34):
I don't want to do those, Idon't want to hurt anybody's
feelings, but it's, it's not.
We can't have 50 ministries, 40of them, that are run by Betsy
and you know, the ministry topotted plants was one time
valuable, but it's it's time isdone, and so we got to have
(11:56):
those kinds of conversations.
Hard, hard conversations.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Where have you had that conversation?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Oh, again, so many.
There's one of the one of theprivileges, I think, of arriving
in a church during COVID wasthat everything had to be shut
down and it wasn't.
I didn't have to do it, so thatwas a bit of a privilege, but
even still, there were things atour church that were good, that
(12:22):
used to happen, that were goodthings, but that we needed to
stop.
There was, you know, asecondhand kind of clothing
outlet thing that we ran andthere was a cafe that we ran,
and they were good things At thetime they were, they made sense
, but they didn't make senseanymore and we didn't have the
(12:44):
resources to run them.
Well, to do this and that,that's right.
So we had to make some choices.
What did we want to do?
And so we chose to stop doingsome of those things Now.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
No one should ever leave a church, myth number five
.
And I guess we're not talkingabout the person who leaves to
go into full-time Christianministry and needs to move for
theological study or whatever.
But there's sometimes peoplewho stay in the suburb and leave
your church and you're sayingthat's not always bad, Not
always bad.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yes, sometimes people are just it's not for them the
way the preacher preaches or theclothes he wears, they just
can't do it, or the style ofservice they just can't do do.
And maybe it's they're immatureand maybe it doesn't really
matter they, they'd be happier,fruitful, effective somewhere
(13:38):
else.
Perhaps it's that they're noton board with our vision.
They're not interested in kindof what we're trying to do.
Maybe they have a differentthought.
That is not bad, it's justdifferent.
And it would be they'd behappier and more effective if
they went to the church down theroad.
Who does those kinds of things?
Because my church can't doeverything, your church can't do
(14:01):
everything.
There are good things I'm sureyou don't do, there's good
things that we don't do, and so,being in a team your church, my
church, it's one team Maybe theperson can join your team to do
a thing that you do that wedon't do Nothing wrong with that
.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Now you talk about vision and lots of people talk
about vision, and one of thethings I've just picked up from
you recently is the rightness ofdifferent people expressing
vision completely differently.
And as I first heard this fromyou, I was thinking.
My friend Toby Neal talks aboutthe vision for his church is to
(14:39):
have more people at Vine Churchthan at the Beresford Hotel
next door, and there's a poetryto that vision yeah.
And when you look at our one,which is glorify God by seeing
Ann and Alan surrounds growingas disciples of Jesus, I mean
it's a more concrete kind of,but it doesn't have the poetry
of more than at the pub.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Which is right.
They're both right.
They're both right, they'reboth good.
My view is vision is a pictureof the preferred future
something like that.
What are we trying to?
Where are we headed?
What are we trying to do?
What would it look like if weachieved it?
Something like that, and sosometimes that can look like a
bit poetic.
(15:21):
More people here than at thepub that's captivating.
But there are other visions,like we want to see 100 healthy
churches by 2030.
It's not very poetic, but it'svery clear, clear, very concrete
.
I know exactly what you'retrying to do, but I know what
Toby's trying to do too.
(15:42):
I can capture that as well.
So I think they're justdifferent.
Some of us are a bit morepoetic, some of us are a bit
more concrete and specific andengineering.
It takes all sorts, but both ofthem are clear pictures of the
preferred future that we'reworking towards.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Why does it have to come out of the heart of the
senior pastor?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I think it has to come out of it.
Well, maybe it doesn't have to,maybe it doesn't have to.
Not all of us are strong inbeing able to have that clear
picture of the preferred futureand for some of us maybe, who
struggle with that side ofthings, we're more in the lives
(16:27):
of the people and you knowthat's where we're heading is
just, it's hard for us.
That's fine, but there arepeople around us who can help us
and shape us and ask us thequestions and prod us, and maybe
they'll say you know what?
Maybe it's just about reachingall of Annandale with the news
(16:48):
of Jesus.
And you'll say you know what?
That's exactly right.
It seems so obvious, but Icouldn't think of it myself.
But what you said is totallyright and in that sense then, it
is from my heart, but it camevia you.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, maybe I said it wrongly in terms of came from
the heart, but it's got to besomething the senior pastor can
enthusiastically totally embrace.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yes, yes, and that's because that's the job of the
leader.
I'm leading us into thispreferred future, for better or
worse, doing my best, but that'smy job and so it needs to.
I need to be as gripped by it,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Because I'm leading us and you're the one who's got
to just kind of be constantlysaying in the team meetings and
this is where you're going interms of vision is not just the
one-off announcement from thefront, it's a drip feed thing.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Talk to me about that .
Yes, the vision casting is veryimportant.
You know the big spiel where welay it all out and tell the
stories and try and inspire andenthuse people.
Very important, the vision cast, but that's just the one-off,
the big kind of fire hose.
There's only so much people candrink out of that.
Then the rest of the year it'sjust the constant dripping
(18:10):
Conversations, meetings, smallgroup all the time.
It just needs to be drippingout of me and dripping into us
all.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And how do you do it?
Having vision cascade downthrough the different layers of
leadership in the church?
Yeah, Because, I'm suspiciousthat we're clear at the senior
minister level.
We're clear at the staff level.
We're a little bit wonky and wemove down at the next level to
(18:43):
kind of we're just slipping into, we're just doing the task,
rather than actually workingtowards the vision.
Right, maybe we're the only onelike that?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I don't think so.
Things break in the middle,right, maybe we're the only one
like that?
I don't think so.
Things break in the middle.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yes, it is so can you fix the middle for me?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I'll have a go.
If my vision is clear, at thetop we're reaching Annandale
with the message of Jesus andthe surrounding areas or
whatever, and then that needs tothen get translated by the
people in the next layerunderneath me.
What does that look like inkids' ministry?
What does that look like insmall groups?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
We're there on that.
We've got glorify God by seeingAnnandale kids growing as
disciples of Jesus.
Right yeah, Annandale youthgrowing as disciples of Jesus
yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And then the next group are implementing that.
And so it's those you mightcall them area leaders or the
ministry people who areresponsible for that area.
It's their job to make surethey're dripping it, they're
casting it in their translatedyouth ministry kind of way, or
(19:55):
community group Bible studyleaders yeah, that the reason
why this exists is to help usreach Annandale for the lost or
whatever.
Yeah, but it's their job to dothat so that those people
understand they're not justdoing a task but they are
achieving this.
We're working towards thispreferred future, because what's
important about that is taskscan get boring or I can get
(20:18):
easily discouraged doing my task.
We all know this.
When you do a task and youdon't know why you're doing it,
I get pretty jack of it prettyquickly.
But if I know the vision, thepicture of the preferred future
that we're working towards, Ican do this task for a lot
longer and weather all kinds ofstorms.
(20:39):
So if we can help our leaderscapture that vision and know
what their task, how it connects, connect those dots for them,
then they're much more likely tocontinue, even when it gets
really hard or even when it getsa bit monotonous or a bit same
same.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
We had a great moment at uh, dinner after church,
dinner after evening church and,uh, one of the people said
thank you to one of the peoplewho was cooking dinner.
Um, thank you for cookingdinner for us.
And uh, she was a bit annoyedthat she'd been thanked for
cooking dinner because she wouldhave preferred to have been
thanked for building communityright, because dinner was a bit
annoyed that she'd been thankedfor cooking dinner because she
would have preferred to havebeen thanked for building
community Right, because dinnerwas a means to an end, whereas
(21:20):
actually what she was doing thisfor was the vision of building
community, which was part ofgrowing disciples.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well, how brilliant Isn't that exactly right.
That leader understands thevision of what she's doing
beyond just the task.
Yeah, how brilliant.
That's really great.
Which?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
he's doing beyond just the task.
Yeah, how brilliant.
That's really great.
Now, proverbs 29.18 is oftenquoted in these kind of
discussions, but mangled.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, yep, yep, do you want?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
to read us the verse, just in case.
I mean in the NIV Proverbs,29.18,.
Without revelation people runwild.
But one who follows divineinstruction will be happy.
But I mean in the King JamesVersion without vision, the
people perish.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if what it meant was
the picture of the preferredfuture that we're working
towards, all of Annandaleknowing Jesus, growing his
disciples of.
Jesus.
Wouldn't that be good?
But it doesn't.
It means revelation, it meansGod's word, the words from the
Lord.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Without God's word, without the word of God, people
run wild Right.
So you mean every leader whohas used it to justify their
vision talk should wash theirmouth out with soap.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
They may have made a mistake.
Yes, they may they have.
They have.
Yeah, vision is still good,even though Proverbs doesn't,
you can't get it from Proverbs29.
Yeah, but it's still a goodidea, even though it's not what
Proverbs is talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
The more complex the organization, the more we need
vision.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yes, I think so.
Yes, when, if, if vision is thepicture of the preferred future
, then that's normal.
This is one of the things thatI think is very important.
Vision is not special or uniqueor fancy.
We all do it all the time.
The vision is after this, I'mdriving back home and I'm going
(23:20):
to lead my staff meeting.
That's not a very compellingvision, but that's the picture
of the future that I am walkinginto.
But I don't need to share thatwith you or anybody, because
that only really affects me.
But when that vision of thepreferred future starts to
impact other people, then themore I need to communicate it so
(23:42):
we can interlock with eachother and we can be all moving
in the same direction and notsubtly moving out into different
spheres.
So the more people who areinvolved in the vision, the more
it needs to be communicated andthe more I guess, just thinking
ahead, that I need to do Right.
Whereas, yeah, I'm just going tohop in the car and drive
(24:02):
there's not much thinking thatneeds to be done or on the way
home, I'll get some milk.
But what I might do is, if thevision for the future is on the
way home, I'm going to get somemilk.
I might tell my wife thatbecause A it would be a caring
thing to do.
She's expecting me at a certaintime, but she may say, oh,
that's great.
That interlocks with my vision,because while you're there, can
you get some flour, becausewe're going to cook this, you
(24:25):
know, blah, blah, blah.
So the more I can communicateit, it then interlocks with
other people and then morethings can happen.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Talk to me about getting people on board with the
vision, the vision of thechurch, or even just the vision
of getting people to come on thechurch weekend away.
Do you know, um, how's it goingto play out, and who are the
different people that I'm goingto have to think of in this
process?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
there's certainly people who are already on board.
They love the idea and evenbefore you've said it yeah,
because it's your idea, or theylove this church or whatever.
There's people who will be like.
I'm not sure.
Maybe.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
What percentage are the first?
Give us some percentage, let'ssay it's thirds.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Let's just say rule of thirds to begin with.
A third will say yes, a thirdwill say not sure about this.
A third will say not sure aboutthis.
A third will say I don't thinkso.
No, and the intuitive thing todo is to spend our time on the
people who are saying no.
Well, that's my intuitive thing, cause I want to convince them.
I can let me at them, butthat's actually wrong.
(25:30):
The.
The place to put your energy isthe people who are already very
keen, the yeses, and put oureffort there and that will drag
some of the maybes over andmaybe even will bring some of
the no's in, but there's goingto be some no's that are going
to be no's forever.
(25:50):
I think I've learned that I'mnot trying to convince people
who are unconvinced, becausethen it just becomes a fight and
it's I'm right and you're wrong, and then you'll say no, I'm
right, you're wrong, the weekendwon't be good, and I'll say the
weekend will be good, and thenwe're just going to fight with
each other.
I'm going to convince thepeople who are already convinced
(26:15):
and then the people will kindof drag over.
This is a big part of researchthat was done a long time ago
called the diffusion ofinnovation.
It's a guy called EverettRogers.
We've got a graphic.
Yes, innovators early adopters.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
We'll break it down from the thirds into the
subcategories.
So what's the differencebetween an innovator and an
early adopter?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Innovators are very rare.
These are kind of 2.5%.
They reckon of a normal kind ofbell curve.
These are the big idea people.
These are the Steve Jobses.
These are the ones who make upthe idea.
The new idea people.
These are the Steve Jobses.
These are the ones who make upthe idea, the new idea.
And then there's the next group13.5%.
These are the early adopters.
(27:04):
People who love it because it'snew will buy the iPhone the day
it comes out, will see themovie at the midnight screening.
They just love the new thingbecause it's new.
Not because it's good, butbecause it's new.
They love that stuff.
Are you that person?
In certain things I can be thatperson.
(27:24):
I love the new thing becauseit's new.
When I go to the shops, ifthere's a flag that says this is
a new flavour of chips or a newflavour of chocolate, that's my
kryptonite.
I have to buy it.
So that's me.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I mean you read more books than anyone I know um that
would fit into that part ofyour personality, you're always
looking for the new idea.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I am voraciously, ferociously
looking for new things that Idon't know, or new aspects of
things, early adopters.
But then you have the kind ofthe bulk, the middle, the 68%, I
think, of the majority early,majority late.
(28:15):
That's the big chunk and thenthe last lot is the last 16%.
They're the laggards.
They may never get on board.
They're like your mum who onlybuys an iPhone when she
absolutely has to, when theNokia 5110, you know breaks.
(28:36):
So that's kind of your standardsort of distribution.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But it's not just about personality.
Sometimes it's going to beabout the issue, isn't it?
Yes, I'm thinking about somepeople, as we're promoting our
church weekend away.
It's not just about personality.
Sometimes it's going to beabout the issue, isn't it?
Yes, I'm thinking about somepeople, as we're promoting our
church weekend away, who aredefinitely in the no category
and yet in other areas of theirlife they're early adopters,
right, right.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yes, yes, so it depends on the issue, depends on
the person, depends on lots ofthings, right, but you've got
that kind of group.
But then what happened was whatpeople began to realize is it's
not a smooth process justworking through these things.
There's a guy called JeffreyMoore who wrote a book called
(29:18):
Crossing the Chasm, Because whathe realized was between the
early adopters and the majority,between the early adopters and
the majority, moving throughthat group is actually very hard
and there's a chasm there thatneeds to be jumped and it
doesn't just happen.
What they found was so theseare in books, like you know
(29:40):
Malcolm Gladwell, tipping Point,simon Sinek, start With why.
They all kind of say the samething Jeffrey Moore, crossing
the chasm that if you don't doanything, you just sort of do
your normal thing, you might tapout at about 10% of the group
(30:02):
and you won't get any furtherbecause there's a chasm there.
What you need is between about15% to 18% of people to be on
board and then that's when youhit the tipping point and then
the thing kind of takes off.
But to get to 15% to 18% isquite hard and what you need in
those early moments is thevision, the why, the early
(30:31):
adopter types.
They need the why.
Why are we doing this?
Less so the what and the how,but they need the why.
Why is this valuable?
Why are we doing this?
And then those other thingswill come the what and the how.
But the rest of the majorityneed to see someone else doing
it.
So I need to see the earlyadopter doing it and then maybe
(30:52):
I'll do it, but it's less for meabout why and it's more just
seeing what other people aredoing.
So it's very, it's very.
It's not intuitive that stuff.
You think if I just tell peopleit's on, they'll come.
Or if I just tell them why theyshould come, everyone will come
.
But it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
My guest on the Pastor's Heart, craig Hamilton.
He is the senior pastor atPitttown Anglican Church and the
author of Wisdom and Leadershipand a stack of other books.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
it is the pastor's heart.
My name is dominic steel andtoday, five leadership myths and
misconceptions about howchurches work, plus.
Biblical vision versusleadership vision what's the
difference and why do peoplemangle proverbs 29, 18?
What happens when a leaderoperates without a clear vision,
and how poetic or concreteshould that vision be?
(00:32):
And how to organize things inyour church so that the big
overall vision cascades downthrough every area of church
life, plus pastoral approachesto the innovators, the early
adopters, the early majority,the late majority, the laggards
and the no's.
Craig Hamilton is with us.
(00:52):
He's the senior pastor ofPitttown Anglican Church in the
northwest of Sydney and well, atleast one of the books on the
shelf behind him is Wisdom inLeadership that Craig authored.
Craig, four years now as asenior minister, you've written
lots about leadership beforebecoming a senior minister, and
(01:13):
so I'm just imagining it's beenall completely smooth sailing
for you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Dominic hello, thank you, nice to be in the new
studio, great to have you.
Yes, I think what I've learnedis the things that I used to
think.
I still think, and I think themeven more and even stronger now
that I'm a senior pastor.
(01:40):
I think what I've found is thatbeing a senior leader has in
some ways been easier than beingan assistant minister, in terms
of the mechanics of the thing.
I think it's easier.
I've said for a long time, youknow, often things break in the
middle.
That's where there's a lot ofpressure, a lot of talk like a
(02:02):
lot of twisting.
It's hard, and I think it'salso true, of course, a lot of
talk like a lot of twisting.
It's hard, and I think it'salso true.
Of course, you know the fishrots from the head, so that's
true too.
But I think the mechanics areeasier as a senior pastor than
being an assistant minister.
I think what's harder is thereis no cavalry, the buck stops
(02:24):
with you.
That's harder is there is nocavalry, the buck stops with you
.
That's harder.
And I think being a seniorpastor, you are more exposed.
I think this is what I'veobserved.
You know, I spent time talkingto senior pastors, as you know
over the last 10 years or so andI think what I've seen is that
(02:47):
when the person has skippedsomething that they maybe should
have learned earlier as a teamleader maybe because they were
charismatic or they were a goodtalker or good with people they
could overcome it.
But when you become the seniorleader, those things that you
(03:16):
have overlooked earlier they areexposed.
That's what I think I've noticed.
What did you overlooked?
Many things.
I'm not good at everything.
There were aspects I think evenof just how to run a team that
I was sloppy on, that wasexposed in this kind of senior
(03:38):
pastor role that I needed tojust sharpen and be, like, more
consistent.
I think I'm pretty good atbeing a consistent person, but
there was still more.
There was more room to grow.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, Myth number one the pastor needs to be involved
in everything.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yes, this is classic, right, you go to every, any
church, I would say mostchurches and most people will
think the pastor needs to beinvolved in everything, probably
because we're so respected andloved and appreciated and people
want and value what we think,and so the pastor, he, should be
(04:19):
involved in this, whether it'sa senior pastor or anyone else.
You know, she, she, she shouldbe involved, he should be
involved, and it's.
It's just not true.
It's just not true.
You know the churches wherethey ask the pastor what flowers
he likes and he says I don'tknow, I like birds of paradise.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I mean, I just think for myself.
Yesterday I had a conversationwith a guy who was bringing two
friends to our Introducing Godcourse last night and I was
praying with him about thesefriends that he was bringing and
he said see you tonight.
And I said, oh, no, no, no, Iwon't be there.
In fact, they watch a video ofthe talk by me.
It would be really weird for meto be sitting in the room when
(05:04):
there's a video of a talk by me.
It would be really weird for meto be sitting in the room when
there's a video on yeah.
But I thought, oh, that'sinteresting.
You've been at our church for Idon't know 10 years.
We've been running IntroducingGod pretty much every Monday
night during school term for 10years and you'd assumed I'd been
at them all.
Yeah, because it was his firsttime bringing a guest.
Yeah, whereas that's been aministry that's been delegated
(05:27):
for all that time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
How good on you.
But you know it feels like thepastor shows his value by being
there, that he values the thingby being there, but that's not
helpful or always true.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Myth number two the leadership team should never
push back on the leader oncehe's shared his opinion on
something.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
This is very difficult.
You know, the senior leader'svoice is so heavy and if I've
said what I think, well, that'swhat the pastor thinks, that's
what we should do.
But again, that is.
It's not helpful.
I'm not always right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I mean, I take it well.
I presume you like me.
I hold my view when I'm in thatkind of meeting and till
towards the end of thediscussion.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
When I'm at my best, I hold it till the end.
Sometimes I'm not at my bestand I might slip out early,
Right okay, how's it worked wellwhen they've pushed back on you
.
When it's worked well, they'llsay you know, Craig, I have a
different.
What if we did this instead?
And again, when I'm at my best,I'll say thank you, Tell me
(06:36):
more about that, I'd like tohear more.
When I'm at my worst, I willsay just no, and that's not
helpful.
It's not good for them.
It's not good for them.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
It's not good for me and you've actually got to.
You do yourself damage as aleader there because you've yeah
, I've shut them down.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I've not allowed them to speak into a thing, and
often the people in my teams arevery clever and their thoughts
are very good and I shouldlisten to them.
You know what I mean, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So tell us a moment.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Oh, there are so many .
They happen all the time.
Dominic, Come on, it's just us.
My team may watch this video.
I mean they were there, they'llknow, it's just, you know, if I
am tired or things have notgone well or it's a choice I'm a
bit afraid of often, I willcompensate by presenting more
(07:33):
certain than I really am.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So where have we come up with a better decision as a
team that you didn't bring orthat you initially disagreed
with?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean these things again.
They happen all the time.
My ideas are not always good ormy team is good at saying
that's a good idea.
What if we tweaked it like thisand did this?
And then it's like, oh, that'sactually that's way, that's way
good, we should definitely dothat.
Last night I was at my wardensand elders meeting and we were
(08:06):
talking about some things thatwe need to plan as a church and
we were going to do this thingand that would have been good.
But then one of the wardenssaid what if we included that
item that we were going to moveaway from in this other space
and then we can have all thethings that we want to have?
It was just a very elegantsolution that I hadn't thought
(08:30):
of and no one else had thoughtof.
And he just paused us and saidwhat if we did this?
And I think I was doing well,because it was immediately
obvious that was a good idea andI said that's a great idea, we
should definitely do that.
Someone write that down so wedon't forget.
So it happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Myth number three the pastor needs to care in close
proximity for every person inthe church.
Yeah, Wouldn't that be good.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
If that was true, I would love to care for every
person in my church, in closeproximity, go to their houses,
be with them, be best friendswith them.
I would like that.
I'm not sure everyone in my bebest friends with them.
I would like that.
I'm not sure everyone in mychurch would like that, but I
would like that.
But it's just not possible.
My church is not a big church,but I still couldn't be best
(09:21):
friends with every person in mychurch and care for them and be
the one that they can talkthrough all their problems with
for hours at length.
There's not enough time.
I can't be that person, but Ithink perhaps you're similar.
I would like to, because I careabout these people and normally
(09:44):
, if I care about you, I spendtime with you and I am that
person.
However, when there's 100 of usor 50 of us or 200 of us, I'm
only one person.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So people, I mean, you hear this line around that
it's the church that does that,that is, if you like, the
authentically organicallybeautiful one, where the church,
where actually love isorganized, that's criticized.
Yes, so how do you want us toorganize love?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
yeah, well, my job, I think, is to care about every
person, and what that looks likeis I care that they're being
cared for, so I don't have to bethe one who cares for them.
I couldn't possibly but how weorganize that?
Are we going to do it through agrowth group network?
(10:38):
Are we going to do it through anetwork of one-to-ones,
whatever?
Horses for courses, but so longas people are being cared for,
that's the objective.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Myth number four the church shouldn't stop doing
anything.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
We all know these churches where there's a million
, a hundred million ministries.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But I mean they're not churches out there, it's us.
I mean we struggle to actuallysay actually I don't think this
thing is working anymore becausewe know that there are people
who are invested in it and it'sgoing to be awkward
conversations, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, I think that's it.
It's not that we don't knowthat it's not being as effective
as it could be or that it's hadits time and wasn't it great
and everything has a life cycle.
It's not that we don't knowthat, it's that we're afraid,
I'm afraid, you know, to havethose kind of conversations and
talk to people and and maybehurt someone's feelings, because
(11:34):
I don't want to do those, Idon't want to hurt anybody's
feelings, but it's, it's not.
We can't have 50 ministries, 40of them, that are run by Betsy
and you know, the ministry topotted plants was one time
valuable, but it's it's time isdone, and so we got to have
(11:56):
those kinds of conversations.
Hard, hard conversations.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Where have you had that conversation?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Oh, again, so many.
There's one of the one of theprivileges, I think, of arriving
in a church during COVID wasthat everything had to be shut
down and it wasn't.
I didn't have to do it, so thatwas a bit of a privilege, but
even still, there were things atour church that were good, that
(12:22):
used to happen, that were goodthings, but that we needed to
stop.
There was, you know, asecondhand kind of clothing
outlet thing that we ran andthere was a cafe that we ran,
and they were good things At thetime they were, they made sense
, but they didn't make senseanymore and we didn't have the
(12:44):
resources to run them.
Well, to do this and that,that's right.
So we had to make some choices.
What did we want to do?
And so we chose to stop doingsome of those things Now.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
No one should ever leave a church, myth number five
.
And I guess we're not talkingabout the person who leaves to
go into full-time Christianministry and needs to move for
theological study or whatever.
But there's sometimes peoplewho stay in the suburb and leave
your church and you're sayingthat's not always bad, Not
always bad.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yes, sometimes people are just it's not for them the
way the preacher preaches or theclothes he wears, they just
can't do it, or the style ofservice they just can't do do.
And maybe it's they're immatureand maybe it doesn't really
matter they, they'd be happier,fruitful, effective somewhere
(13:38):
else.
Perhaps it's that they're noton board with our vision.
They're not interested in kindof what we're trying to do.
Maybe they have a differentthought.
That is not bad, it's justdifferent.
And it would be they'd behappier and more effective if
they went to the church down theroad.
Who does those kinds of things?
Because my church can't doeverything, your church can't do
(14:01):
everything.
There are good things I'm sureyou don't do, there's good
things that we don't do, and so,being in a team your church, my
church, it's one team Maybe theperson can join your team to do
a thing that you do that wedon't do Nothing wrong with that
.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Now you talk about vision and lots of people talk
about vision, and one of thethings I've just picked up from
you recently is the rightness ofdifferent people expressing
vision completely differently.
And as I first heard this fromyou, I was thinking.
My friend Toby Neal talks aboutthe vision for his church is to
(14:39):
have more people at Vine Churchthan at the Beresford Hotel
next door, and there's a poetryto that vision yeah.
And when you look at our one,which is glorify God by seeing
Ann and Alan surrounds growingas disciples of Jesus, I mean
it's a more concrete kind of,but it doesn't have the poetry
of more than at the pub.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Which is right.
They're both right.
They're both right, they'reboth good.
My view is vision is a pictureof the preferred future
something like that.
What are we trying to?
Where are we headed?
What are we trying to do?
What would it look like if weachieved it?
Something like that, and sosometimes that can look like a
bit poetic.
(15:21):
More people here than at thepub that's captivating.
But there are other visions,like we want to see 100 healthy
churches by 2030.
It's not very poetic, but it'svery clear, clear, very concrete
.
I know exactly what you'retrying to do, but I know what
Toby's trying to do too.
(15:42):
I can capture that as well.
So I think they're justdifferent.
Some of us are a bit morepoetic, some of us are a bit
more concrete and specific andengineering.
It takes all sorts, but both ofthem are clear pictures of the
preferred future that we'reworking towards.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Why does it have to come out of the heart of the
senior pastor?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I think it has to come out of it.
Well, maybe it doesn't have to,maybe it doesn't have to.
Not all of us are strong inbeing able to have that clear
picture of the preferred futureand for some of us maybe, who
struggle with that side ofthings, we're more in the lives
(16:27):
of the people and you knowthat's where we're heading is
just, it's hard for us.
That's fine, but there arepeople around us who can help us
and shape us and ask us thequestions and prod us, and maybe
they'll say you know what?
Maybe it's just about reachingall of Annandale with the news
(16:48):
of Jesus.
And you'll say you know what?
That's exactly right.
It seems so obvious, but Icouldn't think of it myself.
But what you said is totallyright and in that sense then, it
is from my heart, but it camevia you.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, maybe I said it wrongly in terms of came from
the heart, but it's got to besomething the senior pastor can
enthusiastically totally embrace.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yes, yes, and that's because that's the job of the
leader.
I'm leading us into thispreferred future, for better or
worse, doing my best, but that'smy job and so it needs to.
I need to be as gripped by it,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Because I'm leading us and you're the one who's got
to just kind of be constantlysaying in the team meetings and
this is where you're going interms of vision is not just the
one-off announcement from thefront, it's a drip feed thing.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Talk to me about that .
Yes, the vision casting is veryimportant.
You know the big spiel where welay it all out and tell the
stories and try and inspire andenthuse people.
Very important, the vision cast, but that's just the one-off,
the big kind of fire hose.
There's only so much people candrink out of that.
Then the rest of the year it'sjust the constant dripping
(18:10):
Conversations, meetings, smallgroup all the time.
It just needs to be drippingout of me and dripping into us
all.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And how do you do it?
Having vision cascade downthrough the different layers of
leadership in the church?
Yeah, Because, I'm suspiciousthat we're clear at the senior
minister level.
We're clear at the staff level.
We're a little bit wonky and wemove down at the next level to
(18:43):
kind of we're just slipping into, we're just doing the task,
rather than actually workingtowards the vision.
Right, maybe we're the only onelike that?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I don't think so.
Things break in the middle,right, maybe we're the only one
like that?
I don't think so.
Things break in the middle.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yes, it is so can you fix the middle for me?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I'll have a go.
If my vision is clear, at thetop we're reaching Annandale
with the message of Jesus andthe surrounding areas or
whatever, and then that needs tothen get translated by the
people in the next layerunderneath me.
What does that look like inkids' ministry?
What does that look like insmall groups?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
We're there on that.
We've got glorify God by seeingAnnandale kids growing as
disciples of Jesus.
Right yeah, Annandale youthgrowing as disciples of Jesus
yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And then the next group are implementing that.
And so it's those you mightcall them area leaders or the
ministry people who areresponsible for that area.
It's their job to make surethey're dripping it, they're
casting it in their translatedyouth ministry kind of way, or
(19:55):
community group Bible studyleaders yeah, that the reason
why this exists is to help usreach Annandale for the lost or
whatever.
Yeah, but it's their job to dothat so that those people
understand they're not justdoing a task but they are
achieving this.
We're working towards thispreferred future, because what's
important about that is taskscan get boring or I can get
(20:18):
easily discouraged doing my task.
We all know this.
When you do a task and youdon't know why you're doing it,
I get pretty jack of it prettyquickly.
But if I know the vision, thepicture of the preferred future
that we're working towards, Ican do this task for a lot
longer and weather all kinds ofstorms.
(20:39):
So if we can help our leaderscapture that vision and know
what their task, how it connects, connect those dots for them,
then they're much more likely tocontinue, even when it gets
really hard or even when it getsa bit monotonous or a bit same
same.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
We had a great moment at uh, dinner after church,
dinner after evening church and,uh, one of the people said
thank you to one of the peoplewho was cooking dinner.
Um, thank you for cookingdinner for us.
And uh, she was a bit annoyedthat she'd been thanked for
cooking dinner because she wouldhave preferred to have been
thanked for building communityright, because dinner was a bit
annoyed that she'd been thankedfor cooking dinner because she
would have preferred to havebeen thanked for building
community Right, because dinnerwas a means to an end, whereas
(21:20):
actually what she was doing thisfor was the vision of building
community, which was part ofgrowing disciples.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well, how brilliant Isn't that exactly right.
That leader understands thevision of what she's doing
beyond just the task.
Yeah, how brilliant.
That's really great.
Which?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
he's doing beyond just the task.
Yeah, how brilliant.
That's really great.
Now, proverbs 29.18 is oftenquoted in these kind of
discussions, but mangled.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, yep, yep, do you want?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
to read us the verse, just in case.
I mean in the NIV Proverbs,29.18,.
Without revelation people runwild.
But one who follows divineinstruction will be happy.
But I mean in the King JamesVersion without vision, the
people perish.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if what it meant was
the picture of the preferredfuture that we're working
towards, all of Annandaleknowing Jesus, growing his
disciples of.
Jesus.
Wouldn't that be good?
But it doesn't.
It means revelation, it meansGod's word, the words from the
Lord.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Without God's word, without the word of God, people
run wild Right.
So you mean every leader whohas used it to justify their
vision talk should wash theirmouth out with soap.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
They may have made a mistake.
Yes, they may they have.
They have.
Yeah, vision is still good,even though Proverbs doesn't,
you can't get it from Proverbs29.
Yeah, but it's still a goodidea, even though it's not what
Proverbs is talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
The more complex the organization, the more we need
vision.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yes, I think so.
Yes, when, if, if vision is thepicture of the preferred future
, then that's normal.
This is one of the things thatI think is very important.
Vision is not special or uniqueor fancy.
We all do it all the time.
The vision is after this, I'mdriving back home and I'm going
(23:20):
to lead my staff meeting.
That's not a very compellingvision, but that's the picture
of the future that I am walkinginto.
But I don't need to share thatwith you or anybody, because
that only really affects me.
But when that vision of thepreferred future starts to
impact other people, then themore I need to communicate it so
(23:42):
we can interlock with eachother and we can be all moving
in the same direction and notsubtly moving out into different
spheres.
So the more people who areinvolved in the vision, the more
it needs to be communicated andthe more I guess, just thinking
ahead, that I need to do Right.
Whereas, yeah, I'm just going tohop in the car and drive
(24:02):
there's not much thinking thatneeds to be done or on the way
home, I'll get some milk.
But what I might do is, if thevision for the future is on the
way home, I'm going to get somemilk.
I might tell my wife thatbecause A it would be a caring
thing to do.
She's expecting me at a certaintime, but she may say, oh,
that's great.
That interlocks with my vision,because while you're there, can
you get some flour, becausewe're going to cook this, you
(24:25):
know, blah, blah, blah.
So the more I can communicateit, it then interlocks with
other people and then morethings can happen.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Talk to me about getting people on board with the
vision, the vision of thechurch, or even just the vision
of getting people to come on thechurch weekend away.
Do you know, um, how's it goingto play out, and who are the
different people that I'm goingto have to think of in this
process?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
there's certainly people who are already on board.
They love the idea and evenbefore you've said it yeah,
because it's your idea, or theylove this church or whatever.
There's people who will be like.
I'm not sure.
Maybe.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
What percentage are the first?
Give us some percentage, let'ssay it's thirds.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Let's just say rule of thirds to begin with.
A third will say yes, a thirdwill say not sure about this.
A third will say not sure aboutthis.
A third will say I don't thinkso.
No, and the intuitive thing todo is to spend our time on the
people who are saying no.
Well, that's my intuitive thing, cause I want to convince them.
I can let me at them, butthat's actually wrong.
(25:30):
The.
The place to put your energy isthe people who are already very
keen, the yeses, and put oureffort there and that will drag
some of the maybes over andmaybe even will bring some of
the no's in, but there's goingto be some no's that are going
to be no's forever.
(25:50):
I think I've learned that I'mnot trying to convince people
who are unconvinced, becausethen it just becomes a fight and
it's I'm right and you're wrong, and then you'll say no, I'm
right, you're wrong, the weekendwon't be good, and I'll say the
weekend will be good, and thenwe're just going to fight with
each other.
I'm going to convince thepeople who are already convinced
(26:15):
and then the people will kindof drag over.
This is a big part of researchthat was done a long time ago
called the diffusion ofinnovation.
It's a guy called EverettRogers.
We've got a graphic.
Yes, innovators early adopters.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
We'll break it down from the thirds into the
subcategories.
So what's the differencebetween an innovator and an
early adopter?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Innovators are very rare.
These are kind of 2.5%.
They reckon of a normal kind ofbell curve.
These are the big idea people.
These are the Steve Jobses.
These are the ones who make upthe idea.
The new idea people.
These are the Steve Jobses.
These are the ones who make upthe idea, the new idea.
And then there's the next group13.5%.
These are the early adopters.
(27:04):
People who love it because it'snew will buy the iPhone the day
it comes out, will see themovie at the midnight screening.
They just love the new thingbecause it's new.
Not because it's good, butbecause it's new.
They love that stuff.
Are you that person?
In certain things I can be thatperson.
(27:24):
I love the new thing becauseit's new.
When I go to the shops, ifthere's a flag that says this is
a new flavour of chips or a newflavour of chocolate, that's my
kryptonite.
I have to buy it.
So that's me.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I mean you read more books than anyone I know um that
would fit into that part ofyour personality, you're always
looking for the new idea.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I am voraciously, ferociously
looking for new things that Idon't know, or new aspects of
things, early adopters.
But then you have the kind ofthe bulk, the middle, the 68%, I
think, of the majority early,majority late.
(28:15):
That's the big chunk and thenthe last lot is the last 16%.
They're the laggards.
They may never get on board.
They're like your mum who onlybuys an iPhone when she
absolutely has to, when theNokia 5110, you know breaks.
(28:36):
So that's kind of your standardsort of distribution.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But it's not just about personality.
Sometimes it's going to beabout the issue, isn't it?
Yes, I'm thinking about somepeople, as we're promoting our
church weekend away.
It's not just about personality.
Sometimes it's going to beabout the issue, isn't it?
Yes, I'm thinking about somepeople, as we're promoting our
church weekend away, who aredefinitely in the no category
and yet in other areas of theirlife they're early adopters,
right, right.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yes, yes, so it depends on the issue, depends on
the person, depends on lots ofthings, right, but you've got
that kind of group.
But then what happened was whatpeople began to realize is it's
not a smooth process justworking through these things.
There's a guy called JeffreyMoore who wrote a book called
(29:18):
Crossing the Chasm, Because whathe realized was between the
early adopters and the majority,between the early adopters and
the majority, moving throughthat group is actually very hard
and there's a chasm there thatneeds to be jumped and it
doesn't just happen.
What they found was so theseare in books, like you know
(29:40):
Malcolm Gladwell, tipping Point,simon Sinek, start With why.
They all kind of say the samething Jeffrey Moore, crossing
the chasm that if you don't doanything, you just sort of do
your normal thing, you might tapout at about 10% of the group
(30:02):
and you won't get any furtherbecause there's a chasm there.
What you need is between about15% to 18% of people to be on
board and then that's when youhit the tipping point and then
the thing kind of takes off.
But to get to 15% to 18% isquite hard and what you need in
those early moments is thevision, the why, the early
(30:31):
adopter types.
They need the why.
Why are we doing this?
Less so the what and the how,but they need the why.
Why is this valuable?
Why are we doing this?
And then those other thingswill come the what and the how.
But the rest of the majorityneed to see someone else doing
it.
So I need to see the earlyadopter doing it and then maybe
(30:52):
I'll do it, but it's less for meabout why and it's more just
seeing what other people aredoing.
So it's very, it's very.
It's not intuitive that stuff.
You think if I just tell peopleit's on, they'll come.
Or if I just tell them why theyshould come, everyone will come
.
But it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
My guest on the Pastor's Heart, craig Hamilton.
He is the senior pastor atPitttown Anglican Church and the
author of Wisdom and Leadershipand a stack of other books.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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