October 17, 2025 • 29 mins
“We are now the Global Anglican Communion,” says Archbishop Laurent Mbanda — the Chair of Gafcon, Primate of Rwanda, and leader of Global Anglicans.
Bible-believing Anglicans around the world are praising God today.
The Anglican Communion is being reordered — reset — with the Bible once again at its foundation.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, the revisionists, and the so-called Canterbury Communion are out — they’ve repeatedly abandoned Cranmerian Anglicanism, and ultimately, Jesus himself.
This reordering seeks to restore the Communion’s original structure — a fellowship of autonomous provinces bound together by the Formularies of the Reformation. There will be no communion with those who have abandoned the authority of Scripture.
A new Council of Primates will be formed, electing a chairman to preside as primus inter pares — first among equals.
Archbishop Mbanda is here in Sydney this week with a group of Primates and the founding fathers of Gafcon. Their informal consultations culminated in a clear and momentous statement — so significant that an online Global Primates Meeting was held at 11 p.m. Sydney time last night to ratify the decisions made.
Many of those leaders are now on planes heading home. But Archbishop Mbanda, joins us in our Pastor’s Heart studio.
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
We are now the Global Anglican Communion.
That's what the leader of GlobalAnglicans, the chair of GAFCON,
the Primate of Rwanda, LaurentMbanda, says.
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele coming herefrom Sydney, and with me, the
leader of Global Anglicans,Laurent Mbanda.
Bible Christians who areAnglican all around the world
(00:29):
are praising God today.
The Anglican Communion is to bereordered, to be reset.
The Bible is to be thefoundation of an authentic
communion.
The Archbishop of Canterbury,the Revisionists, and the
Canterbury Communion are out.
They have repeatedly abandonedCramnerian Anglicanism and
(00:51):
Jesus.
The reordering of an authenticglobal Anglican communion seeks
to restore the AnglicanCommunion's original structure
as a fellowship of autonomousprovinces bound together by the
formularies of the Reformation.
There will be no communion withrevisionists who have abandoned
(01:13):
the Bible.
There's to be a council ofprimates of member provinces.
They'll elect a chairman who'llpreside over that council.
Archbishop Laurent Umbanda iswith us in Sydney, and he's been
here with a group of primatesand the founding fathers of the
GAFCON movement.
There have been informalconsultations all week,
(01:34):
culminating in a statement thatwas so clear and so significant
that there was a global primatesmeeting online at 11 o'clock
last night, Sydney time, toratify the decisions that were
made.
A whole lot of those primatesand leaders are now on planes
flying home.
But Archbishop Mbunga, thanksfor delaying your flight back to
(01:54):
Rwanda and coming to talk to usafter what's been a huge week.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Well, let me say that it has been on my heart for
a while.
And the reason it has been on myheart for a while is because as
chair, I don't work alone.
I always try to consult, Ialways try to talk to people, I
want to know where they are andwhat they think.
But also, as we knew that wewere anticipating this
(02:33):
announcement of the Archbishopof Canterbury, and knowing that
uh we have been on a journeysince 2008, the CAFCON, and we
have met several times.
We have also written documents,we have expressed who we are, we
(02:54):
have talked about our identity,we have um um many times uh
talked about uh Canterbury, uhwe met in Kigari, and we talked
about the Ash Wednesday, whichwe are familiar with.
So I think it was time to startthinking, okay, so what do some
(03:15):
of these founding fathers think?
It was also time to say, okay,we have talked a lot.
It's very time for um to to walkthe talk, and um so it was good
to think and to start thinkingand praying as we prayed to
think, okay, maybe this is theright time to look back where we
(03:40):
have been, to see where we aretoday and ask ourselves a tough
question as so where are wegoing on this journey that we
started 2008?
And so as I thought about that,I uh decided to call as a
chairman to call a small group,especially the founding fathers,
(04:04):
to be inspired by their hearts,by their commitment, by what led
them to GovCon 2008.
But as also I thought aboutthose founding fathers of
GovCon, like Peter Jensen, likePeter Kinora, and others, Henry
(04:24):
O'Rombi, and uh even though hewas not here, and others.
So I think it would beinteresting to have these people
to sit down with them.
Yes, and uh and also a few a fewprimates to sit and think
together and look back togetherand come to where we are
(04:45):
together in the context ofeverything that is going on.
So that's how we came together.
That's how the Lord made it forus to be able to together here.
And uh it was it was amazing tobe in the same room, it was
inspiring to be in the sameroom.
It was it was uh it was a goodmoment to listen to people like
(05:08):
uh Pitakinola and uh how Godused him.
So I'm thankful that we had anopportunity of being together
and thinking together and uh andasking ourselves some questions
and both of uh of so what haveyou done?
So where do we go?
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
So the statement you ended up producing was so
significant you decided we needa full count primates meeting to
ratify it, to consult with them.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Well, that that statement is was almost organic
as we are talking and sharingand and and and seeking to
clarify some of the document.
We had a lot of documents, wehad written a lot, but there
were things that needed somesharpening, some clarification,
or those other things thatneeded to come together.
So as we discussed, and thosethings were coming together,
(06:01):
there was a sense of wow, thisis this is really good.
This is the moment, this issomething that we need to share
with others.
So these things were comingtogether.
I felt like it's veryinteresting if we can sense uh
we have thought, we havebrainstorm, we have looked back,
(06:23):
we have uh looked where we aretoday, we have looked at the
contact, and here is what iscoming out.
Would it be interesting to shareit with other primates?
So that's how we we we reallycalled uh let's say an
extraordinary um primatesmeeting, and uh I'm glad that uh
(06:43):
people responded.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Now, you've issued a statement, eight points.
I thought I might read eachpoint to you and then get you to
elaborate on each point as wego.
Yes.
Um the the first big line is weresolved to reorder the Anglican
Communion.
That is a big statement.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
It is a big statement.
It is a big statement becauseGAFCON in 2008 reset the
communion.
We made a commitment there.
We developed a Jerusalemdeclaration out of that meeting,
that that conference.
And so, as we have been talking,and given what is going on, and
(07:28):
also given that the revisionistscontinue to deny what the
scripture teaches, continue towalk away as as the fabric
continues to turn even morefurther, I think it was time to
say, and to be who we havealways said we are, and to move
(07:48):
toward what we have always said.
So it's reordering because thereset had been done, and now we
may need to sharpen and makethings clear and clearly set the
direction of where we are going.
And we had said it in thatstatement that we said two weeks
ago.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
We declare that the Anglican Communion will be
reordered with only onefoundation of communion, namely
the Holy Bible, translated,read, preached, taught, and
obeyed in its plain andcanonical sense, respectful of
the church's historic andconsensual reading.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Yes.
The Bible is what brings us tounity.
Wasn't it the Bible?
You and I wouldn't probably knoweach other.
That's quite right.
It's what Christ did for us thatbrings us together, and we find
that in his word.
And so that Bible becomes thecenter, that Bible becomes the
(08:46):
what brings us together inunity.
That Bible also is what gives usthe message of the good news to
be witnesses of Christ, of whathe has done in us and what he is
doing through us.
So that is that that that is acall, that is to the heart, that
is the foundation.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
We reject the so-called instruments of
communion, namely the Archbishopof Canterbury, the Lambeth
Conference, the AnglicanConsultative Council, and the
primates meeting, which havefailed to uphold the doctrine
and discipline of the AnglicanCommunion.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
I think that the last part says it well.
They have failed.
They have failed to bring ustogether, they have failed to
keep us together.
Part of it is the leadershipthat uh has been in the place
that didn't abort theinstrument, that the instrument
didn't serve us mainly becauseof the failure of leadership.
(09:48):
That's what I believe.
But that failure also becomesfrom the rejection of what the
scripture teaches, from removingand distancing ourselves from
themselves, from what the Biblesays.
And so that's why we talk aboutbringing back the Bible, that's
what we say, restoring the Bibleto the center, that's why we see
(10:08):
the Bible as the unifying,that's why we see the Bible as
the uh witness of the gospel.
And so those instruments, theydidn't, they failed, they failed
us.
And this is not the first timewe have raised that.
We talked about it in 2008, wetalked about it in 2013, we
talked about in 2018, about timeto walk the talk.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Yeah.
If I think back to 2023 andKigali, it felt like we could we
same so came so close to sayingit then.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
It was amazing.
It was amazing in the Kigari.
It was it's it felt like thetime was right.
But you know what?
We were still hoping, we werestill praying, we were still
thinking, well, maybe there willbe repentance, yeah, maybe there
will be that return back to thecenter.
Maybe the leadership that was inplace or that might come will do
(11:06):
something that brings ustogether, that will reinforce
the discipline, that will bringthe they make the instrument it
work for us.
But that failed.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Another two years and it's a good one.
Another two years.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Yeah.
And you keep walking, walking,walking, walking.
The good news is that we were ona journey, that we never gave
up, even though we expected andgave opportunity for people to
repent to bring us together.
Now that that is failing, as weread the resetting, we also lead
(11:38):
the reordering.
And GAFCON is reading.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
We cannot continue to have communion with those who
advocate the revisionist agenda,which has abandoned the inerrant
word of God as the finalauthority and overturned
resolution 110 of the 1998Lambeth Conference.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
Again, that is not new.
That is something that has beenthere.
It goes back to that year youjust stated, it goes back to the
time when when they failed tobring discipline, when people
departed from the teaching ofthe scripture.
So we have expressed that.
Right now, what we are doing isjust re-articulating it,
(12:19):
sharpening it, bringing it tothe surface.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
So here we get to the changes.
Therefore, GAFCON has reorderedthe Anglican Communion by
restoring its original structureas a fellowship of autonomous
provinces bound together by theformularies of the Reformation
as reflected at the firstLambeth Conference in 1867, and
we are now the global AnglicanCommunion.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Yes, and that's very interesting because from day one
from 2008, we said we are in thecommunion.
We are the Anglican communion.
Those who are not Anglicancommunion and the Anglican
(13:04):
communion are those who havedeparted from the Word of God,
from the scripture, from theinstrument that holds us
together, from bringing theBible back to the center.
So we never left.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
We have been there, and the message has been clear.
We have been articulating it.
So no, uh I'm not sure if anyonecan say, uh, no, you are not
Anglican.
Anglicans are those who haveleft what makes us Anglican.
And so um that's why we havealways been, you know, um uh
(13:40):
GAFCO is global future Anglicanconferences.
So with that, then we areglobal.
That name has been there.
We are Anglicans, that has beenthere.
We are with the Anglicancommunion, that has been there.
So there is nothing new exceptthat we are really making it
(14:02):
clear and sharp.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
I mean, some people will accuse you of being
schismatic.
What do you say to them?
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Why would they accuse me of being uh uh
schismatic when they are theones who departed and they are
not saying anything aboutthemselves?
Maybe I should turn that tothem.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
And say that's what they have been, but that's not
what we we we are or what we'vebeen.
We have always been there, westay there, we continue there,
instead we say, no, come back,let's go.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Provinces of the Global Anglican Communion shall
not participate in meetingscalled by the Archbishop of
Canterbury, including the ACC,and shall not make any monetary
contribution to the ACC, norreceive any monetary
contribution from the ACC or itsnetworks.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Again, that is bringing it back to the service.
We have said it.
We even said it in the Ashwenisday.
We even talked about Nato goingto Rome in that meeting.
We even talked about a number ofmeetings, we even talked about
uh uh a broken relationship.
So this is this is this isexactly what we have been
talking about.
(15:18):
We now want to walk it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Provinces, I'm at number six now, provinces which
have yet to do so, areencouraged to amend their
constitution to remove anyreference to being in communion
with the Sea of Canterbury andthe Church of England.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yes, again, let me say that there are some
provinces that already didn'thave that reference to the Sea
of Canterbury.
Take the example of Brazil, takethe example of uh the um SNA,
the Anglican Church in NorthAmerica, take the example of the
Church of Rwanda if you want to.
I think Nigeria doesn't have areference.
Nigeria, yeah.
So yes, but then if we aresaying that we have no
(15:58):
relationship, but I think thatlike the Australian Church, I
think does have that as part ofits constitution.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
So I'd hope that the powers that be on the general
synod of the Australian Churchwould work with.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Now that's something to think about.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah.
We have something to thinkabout.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:12):
Yes.
Yeah.
There is some homework for thosewho who who have that, that's
where they're saying, you needto consider and start thinking,
how do you move away from that?
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
How do you move away?
Yeah.
To be a member of the GlobalAnglican Communion, a province
or diocese must assent to theJerusalem Declaration of 2008,
the contemporary standard forAnglican identity.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
Yes, and that again goes back to 2008.
And it is reminded, uh, or itwas a reminder to 2013.
We re-articulated it again in2018.
In Kigari, I believe that wealso talked about.
So that has always been whatbrings in into being a member of
(16:54):
Gafco.
And we continue to make that sofor the provinces, for the
dioceses, and where there areprovinces that are not part of
that, and there are bishops ordioceses that uh that uh want to
be part of GAFCON, they havecreated branches and we will
continue to create branches.
(17:16):
There have also been people whohave been affiliated with GAFCO
on their own.
So three levels (17:21):
a province comes, a diocese can come
through a branch, individualscan come as affiliate, and those
who have not yet come can alwayscome.
We want to force anybody, it hasto be your conviction of where
do you want it to be in relationto the teaching of the
(17:41):
scripture?
Where do you want it to be inrelation to the Bible being the
center of what you are doing?
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Um, and then the last one we shall form a council
of primates of all memberprovinces to elect a chairman as
Primus into Paris, first amongstequals, to preside over the
council as it continues tocontend for the faith.
So a new leader.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
A new leader, and I'm looking to that celebration.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
That is coming in March G 26.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
So tell us about this important meeting of
bishops in March 26.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Well, in March 2026 in Abuja, we are convening a
meeting of the bishop'sconference.
Now, this is not again new tous.
We have we had the G20 G25, wehave G26 coming, we will have
(18:35):
G27 coming, we'll have GAFCON 8coming in 2028.
Before we had the GAFCO thatwent from happened uh 208 and
then you wait another fiveyears.
So we are coming together, andin this coming together, it so
happened that this this time weare saying, let us walk the
(18:58):
talk.
We started the journey in 208.
So you've you've started to mapout an agenda for this
conference next March?
Well, not yet, but this alsobecomes this is good, this feels
like it's the big agenda.
This is a this alone is a gooduh agenda, is being made.
Yeah, but this alone is good,it's good enough to for us to
(19:19):
spend.
You can spend uh a whole lot oftime talking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
I've never wanted to go to a bishop's conference
before, but I've got quiteexcited about this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
The key thing is this these bishops are coming
together, we'll spend timetogether in prayer, we'll spend
time together in fellowship andworship, we'll spend time
together to to even expound moreon this.
We'll spend together in times ofcelebration of our new identity,
(19:47):
the global Anglican Communion.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Now, is it a coincidence that the leaders,
the bishops of 85% of theworld's Anglicans will be
gathering in Abuja in March nextyear, while the leader of 15% of
the world's Anglicans, SarahMalali, will be being installed
over in London two weeks later?
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Uh it's just by coincidence because we didn't
plan it that way, they didn'tplan it that way.
But if it happens that way,praise the Lord.
We we'll move.
Maybe she will attend.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
Well, wouldn't it be great if she attended, if she
repented, signed the Jerusalem?
I mean, that's really thelonging, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Well, where there is a deeper issue, but if she
repented and signed theJerusalem declaration, what do
you think would happen?
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I think she'd have to resign.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
Well, but the thing is this that if she repented,
which is what we have calledfor, it will be an answered
prayer for the Sea ofCanterbury.
Because we have always called ifthey repent and come.
But that repentance also has torestore the Bible to the center.
(21:08):
That repentance cannot just bemore words that we say, it has
to be followed by action.
Now, having said that, I alsohave to say that there are
certain uh uh number ofprovinces that still have uh
struggle with uh uh with a womanin uh leadership.
(21:29):
And um so, but that has but thatthe essential is the repentance.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
Um what about bishops who haven't previously
been part of GAFCON?
I'm just thinking about my oldMoore College classmate Mark
Short, who's now the primate ofor the primate elect of
Australia.
Can he be invited?
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
He has to sign the Jerusalem Declaration.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Can you sign the Jerusalem Declaration?
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Well, if you wholeheartedly read the
Jerusalem Declaration andbelieve that this is what really
speaks to my heart, this is whoI am, this is what I buy.
Uh 100%, this is what I'mcommitted to, and you sign it,
you are welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
And I'm imagining, I mean, this statement's only 15
hours old, but um, I'm imaginingalready your phone is starting
to run hot with primates fromaround the world talking about
how do I fit in in this.
And uh, I mean, I'm justthinking about the excitement of
um well that statement by TitusChung.
(22:30):
Um, when I read that uh afterSarah Malale's appointment and
and how clear he was on thegospel, um, I mean, uh it he he
just sounds great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Yes.
Um uh his statement was a goodestatement.
I read it also.
Yeah.
But now the Jedi, the Jerusalemof Declaration.
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
Read it, study it, say it, and come.
And you'll be reaching out tothe others in the global south
in the same way?
SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Well, we don't need to because I think things are
clear, but our arms are open.
We are open to receive, we areopen to to embrace.
Um the it's interesting that youtalk about in the global south.
GAFCON is very interesting.
Global South or GSFA is veryinteresting because we cross in.
(23:26):
So if you look survival, yes.
So if you look at uh if you lookat uh um GAFCO, we are, I
believe, 12 uh primates.
It's only two that are not inGSFA.
It's me and Nigeria.
So the door is open, our armsare open.
(23:49):
And and after all, we aretalking about the Bible at the
center.
So if you read the JerusalemDeclaration and you fear that
commitment, that conviction,that's where it should be.
Come.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Now, other statements that have come out in
the last 15 hours, we've seen umuh uh the primate of the
Anglican Church of NorthAmerica, Steve Woods, and also
uh Bishop Julian Dodd, they'veboth put out statements, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Uh, and and I don't think that their statement
contradicts.
They don't contradict, theyactually complement.
I also believe that they have uhsigned the Jerusalem
Declaration.
I also believe that uh they arestanding in the right place, and
we invite others who feel thatGod is leading them to be part
(24:39):
of this.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
So where to from here?
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Where to from here?
We are heading to Abujah G26.
We are also saying, Yeah, think,pray, let God lead you.
Look at this Jerusalemdeclaration, and join this
(25:05):
global Anglican communion if youfeel that that's where God is
leading you.
There are some that are that arein the provinces that are
revisionists, and if I feel likeall my province is not coming,
you can join the branches thatare next to you or that are in
(25:28):
your country, you can be anaffiliate.
You see, for some it will taketime, time, and as it takes a
time, but you are on a journey,you are in the process, you are
welcome.
But the Jerusalem declarationneeds to be signed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
Thanks so much for coming to talk to us this
afternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
I'm so good to be here.
Thank you very much.
Do you want to pray for thecommunion?
Definitely, yes, I would love todo so.
Let us pray together, ourgracious Father.
We want to give you glory andpraise where you have got us
from to where we are today, forwhat you have done in our lives,
(26:18):
for the manifestation of yourlove through your Son Jesus
Christ, who died on the crossfor our sins.
We thank you for what he hasdone for us, we thank you for
what he has done in us, we thankyou for what he is doing through
us.
We pray, Father, that we'll becontinue to be obedient to your
(26:41):
word.
We pray that we will step outand preach the good news,
proclaim Christ unshamed free tothe nations.
We pray for those that are uh onthe fringes, and Lord, pray that
uh you will bring them in.
(27:02):
Also pray for those that havehardened their hearts, Lord,
that you will turn their heartsto you, may they repent, may
they put you to the center oftheir lives, may they heed your
word and be obedient to it.
May you have your own way, Lord,in our lives, in the life of
(27:25):
your church.
May you bring healing and unityaround the scriptures, in the
land of the witness, of JesusChrist.
In the name of the Father, inthe name of the Son.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
Archbishop Lawrence.
My name is Dominic Steele, andyou've been with us on the
pastors afternoon.
Thanks for your company.
We will look forward to youjoining us again next Tuesday
afternoon.
We are now the Global Anglican Communion.
That's what the leader of GlobalAnglicans, the chair of GAFCON,
the Primate of Rwanda, LaurentMbanda, says.
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele coming herefrom Sydney, and with me, the
leader of Global Anglicans,Laurent Mbanda.
Bible Christians who areAnglican all around the world
(00:29):
are praising God today.
The Anglican Communion is to bereordered, to be reset.
The Bible is to be thefoundation of an authentic
communion.
The Archbishop of Canterbury,the Revisionists, and the
Canterbury Communion are out.
They have repeatedly abandonedCramnerian Anglicanism and
(00:51):
Jesus.
The reordering of an authenticglobal Anglican communion seeks
to restore the AnglicanCommunion's original structure
as a fellowship of autonomousprovinces bound together by the
formularies of the Reformation.
There will be no communion withrevisionists who have abandoned
(01:13):
the Bible.
There's to be a council ofprimates of member provinces.
They'll elect a chairman who'llpreside over that council.
Archbishop Laurent Umbanda iswith us in Sydney, and he's been
here with a group of primatesand the founding fathers of the
GAFCON movement.
There have been informalconsultations all week,
(01:34):
culminating in a statement thatwas so clear and so significant
that there was a global primatesmeeting online at 11 o'clock
last night, Sydney time, toratify the decisions that were
made.
A whole lot of those primatesand leaders are now on planes
flying home.
But Archbishop Mbunga, thanksfor delaying your flight back to
(01:54):
Rwanda and coming to talk to usafter what's been a huge week.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Well, let me say that it has been on my heart for
a while.
And the reason it has been on myheart for a while is because as
chair, I don't work alone.
I always try to consult, Ialways try to talk to people, I
want to know where they are andwhat they think.
But also, as we knew that wewere anticipating this
(02:33):
announcement of the Archbishopof Canterbury, and knowing that
uh we have been on a journeysince 2008, the CAFCON, and we
have met several times.
We have also written documents,we have expressed who we are, we
(02:54):
have talked about our identity,we have um um many times uh
talked about uh Canterbury, uhwe met in Kigari, and we talked
about the Ash Wednesday, whichwe are familiar with.
So I think it was time to startthinking, okay, so what do some
(03:15):
of these founding fathers think?
It was also time to say, okay,we have talked a lot.
It's very time for um to to walkthe talk, and um so it was good
to think and to start thinkingand praying as we prayed to
think, okay, maybe this is theright time to look back where we
(03:40):
have been, to see where we aretoday and ask ourselves a tough
question as so where are wegoing on this journey that we
started 2008?
And so as I thought about that,I uh decided to call as a
chairman to call a small group,especially the founding fathers,
(04:04):
to be inspired by their hearts,by their commitment, by what led
them to GovCon 2008.
But as also I thought aboutthose founding fathers of
GovCon, like Peter Jensen, likePeter Kinora, and others, Henry
(04:24):
O'Rombi, and uh even though hewas not here, and others.
So I think it would beinteresting to have these people
to sit down with them.
Yes, and uh and also a few a fewprimates to sit and think
together and look back togetherand come to where we are
(04:45):
together in the context ofeverything that is going on.
So that's how we came together.
That's how the Lord made it forus to be able to together here.
And uh it was it was amazing tobe in the same room, it was
inspiring to be in the sameroom.
It was it was uh it was a goodmoment to listen to people like
(05:08):
uh Pitakinola and uh how Godused him.
So I'm thankful that we had anopportunity of being together
and thinking together and uh andasking ourselves some questions
and both of uh of so what haveyou done?
So where do we go?
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
So the statement you ended up producing was so
significant you decided we needa full count primates meeting to
ratify it, to consult with them.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Well, that that statement is was almost organic
as we are talking and sharingand and and and seeking to
clarify some of the document.
We had a lot of documents, wehad written a lot, but there
were things that needed somesharpening, some clarification,
or those other things thatneeded to come together.
So as we discussed, and thosethings were coming together,
(06:01):
there was a sense of wow, thisis this is really good.
This is the moment, this issomething that we need to share
with others.
So these things were comingtogether.
I felt like it's veryinteresting if we can sense uh
we have thought, we havebrainstorm, we have looked back,
(06:23):
we have uh looked where we aretoday, we have looked at the
contact, and here is what iscoming out.
Would it be interesting to shareit with other primates?
So that's how we we we reallycalled uh let's say an
extraordinary um primatesmeeting, and uh I'm glad that uh
(06:43):
people responded.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Now, you've issued a statement, eight points.
I thought I might read eachpoint to you and then get you to
elaborate on each point as wego.
Yes.
Um the the first big line is weresolved to reorder the Anglican
Communion.
That is a big statement.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
It is a big statement.
It is a big statement becauseGAFCON in 2008 reset the
communion.
We made a commitment there.
We developed a Jerusalemdeclaration out of that meeting,
that that conference.
And so, as we have been talking,and given what is going on, and
(07:28):
also given that the revisionistscontinue to deny what the
scripture teaches, continue towalk away as as the fabric
continues to turn even morefurther, I think it was time to
say, and to be who we havealways said we are, and to move
(07:48):
toward what we have always said.
So it's reordering because thereset had been done, and now we
may need to sharpen and makethings clear and clearly set the
direction of where we are going.
And we had said it in thatstatement that we said two weeks
ago.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
We declare that the Anglican Communion will be
reordered with only onefoundation of communion, namely
the Holy Bible, translated,read, preached, taught, and
obeyed in its plain andcanonical sense, respectful of
the church's historic andconsensual reading.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Yes.
The Bible is what brings us tounity.
Wasn't it the Bible?
You and I wouldn't probably knoweach other.
That's quite right.
It's what Christ did for us thatbrings us together, and we find
that in his word.
And so that Bible becomes thecenter, that Bible becomes the
(08:46):
what brings us together inunity.
That Bible also is what gives usthe message of the good news to
be witnesses of Christ, of whathe has done in us and what he is
doing through us.
So that is that that that is acall, that is to the heart, that
is the foundation.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
We reject the so-called instruments of
communion, namely the Archbishopof Canterbury, the Lambeth
Conference, the AnglicanConsultative Council, and the
primates meeting, which havefailed to uphold the doctrine
and discipline of the AnglicanCommunion.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
I think that the last part says it well.
They have failed.
They have failed to bring ustogether, they have failed to
keep us together.
Part of it is the leadershipthat uh has been in the place
that didn't abort theinstrument, that the instrument
didn't serve us mainly becauseof the failure of leadership.
(09:48):
That's what I believe.
But that failure also becomesfrom the rejection of what the
scripture teaches, from removingand distancing ourselves from
themselves, from what the Biblesays.
And so that's why we talk aboutbringing back the Bible, that's
what we say, restoring the Bibleto the center, that's why we see
(10:08):
the Bible as the unifying,that's why we see the Bible as
the uh witness of the gospel.
And so those instruments, theydidn't, they failed, they failed
us.
And this is not the first timewe have raised that.
We talked about it in 2008, wetalked about it in 2013, we
talked about in 2018, about timeto walk the talk.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Yeah.
If I think back to 2023 andKigali, it felt like we could we
same so came so close to sayingit then.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
It was amazing.
It was amazing in the Kigari.
It was it's it felt like thetime was right.
But you know what?
We were still hoping, we werestill praying, we were still
thinking, well, maybe there willbe repentance, yeah, maybe there
will be that return back to thecenter.
Maybe the leadership that was inplace or that might come will do
(11:06):
something that brings ustogether, that will reinforce
the discipline, that will bringthe they make the instrument it
work for us.
But that failed.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Another two years and it's a good one.
Another two years.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Yeah.
And you keep walking, walking,walking, walking.
The good news is that we were ona journey, that we never gave
up, even though we expected andgave opportunity for people to
repent to bring us together.
Now that that is failing, as weread the resetting, we also lead
(11:38):
the reordering.
And GAFCON is reading.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
We cannot continue to have communion with those who
advocate the revisionist agenda,which has abandoned the inerrant
word of God as the finalauthority and overturned
resolution 110 of the 1998Lambeth Conference.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
Again, that is not new.
That is something that has beenthere.
It goes back to that year youjust stated, it goes back to the
time when when they failed tobring discipline, when people
departed from the teaching ofthe scripture.
So we have expressed that.
Right now, what we are doing isjust re-articulating it,
(12:19):
sharpening it, bringing it tothe surface.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
So here we get to the changes.
Therefore, GAFCON has reorderedthe Anglican Communion by
restoring its original structureas a fellowship of autonomous
provinces bound together by theformularies of the Reformation
as reflected at the firstLambeth Conference in 1867, and
we are now the global AnglicanCommunion.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Yes, and that's very interesting because from day one
from 2008, we said we are in thecommunion.
We are the Anglican communion.
Those who are not Anglicancommunion and the Anglican
(13:04):
communion are those who havedeparted from the Word of God,
from the scripture, from theinstrument that holds us
together, from bringing theBible back to the center.
So we never left.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:18):
We have been there, and the message has been clear.
We have been articulating it.
So no, uh I'm not sure if anyonecan say, uh, no, you are not
Anglican.
Anglicans are those who haveleft what makes us Anglican.
And so um that's why we havealways been, you know, um uh
(13:40):
GAFCO is global future Anglicanconferences.
So with that, then we areglobal.
That name has been there.
We are Anglicans, that has beenthere.
We are with the Anglicancommunion, that has been there.
So there is nothing new exceptthat we are really making it
(14:02):
clear and sharp.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
I mean, some people will accuse you of being
schismatic.
What do you say to them?
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Why would they accuse me of being uh uh
schismatic when they are theones who departed and they are
not saying anything aboutthemselves?
Maybe I should turn that tothem.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
And say that's what they have been, but that's not
what we we we are or what we'vebeen.
We have always been there, westay there, we continue there,
instead we say, no, come back,let's go.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Provinces of the Global Anglican Communion shall
not participate in meetingscalled by the Archbishop of
Canterbury, including the ACC,and shall not make any monetary
contribution to the ACC, norreceive any monetary
contribution from the ACC or itsnetworks.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Again, that is bringing it back to the service.
We have said it.
We even said it in the Ashwenisday.
We even talked about Nato goingto Rome in that meeting.
We even talked about a number ofmeetings, we even talked about
uh uh a broken relationship.
So this is this is this isexactly what we have been
talking about.
(15:18):
We now want to walk it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Provinces, I'm at number six now, provinces which
have yet to do so, areencouraged to amend their
constitution to remove anyreference to being in communion
with the Sea of Canterbury andthe Church of England.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yes, again, let me say that there are some
provinces that already didn'thave that reference to the Sea
of Canterbury.
Take the example of Brazil, takethe example of uh the um SNA,
the Anglican Church in NorthAmerica, take the example of the
Church of Rwanda if you want to.
I think Nigeria doesn't have areference.
Nigeria, yeah.
So yes, but then if we aresaying that we have no
(15:58):
relationship, but I think thatlike the Australian Church, I
think does have that as part ofits constitution.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
So I'd hope that the powers that be on the general
synod of the Australian Churchwould work with.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Now that's something to think about.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah.
We have something to thinkabout.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:12):
Yes.
Yeah.
There is some homework for thosewho who who have that, that's
where they're saying, you needto consider and start thinking,
how do you move away from that?
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
How do you move away?
Yeah.
To be a member of the GlobalAnglican Communion, a province
or diocese must assent to theJerusalem Declaration of 2008,
the contemporary standard forAnglican identity.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
Yes, and that again goes back to 2008.
And it is reminded, uh, or itwas a reminder to 2013.
We re-articulated it again in2018.
In Kigari, I believe that wealso talked about.
So that has always been whatbrings in into being a member of
(16:54):
Gafco.
And we continue to make that sofor the provinces, for the
dioceses, and where there areprovinces that are not part of
that, and there are bishops ordioceses that uh that uh want to
be part of GAFCON, they havecreated branches and we will
continue to create branches.
(17:16):
There have also been people whohave been affiliated with GAFCO
on their own.
So three levels (17:21):
a province comes, a diocese can come
through a branch, individualscan come as affiliate, and those
who have not yet come can alwayscome.
We want to force anybody, it hasto be your conviction of where
do you want it to be in relationto the teaching of the
(17:41):
scripture?
Where do you want it to be inrelation to the Bible being the
center of what you are doing?
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Um, and then the last one we shall form a council
of primates of all memberprovinces to elect a chairman as
Primus into Paris, first amongstequals, to preside over the
council as it continues tocontend for the faith.
So a new leader.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
A new leader, and I'm looking to that celebration.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
That is coming in March G 26.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
So tell us about this important meeting of
bishops in March 26.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Well, in March 2026 in Abuja, we are convening a
meeting of the bishop'sconference.
Now, this is not again new tous.
We have we had the G20 G25, wehave G26 coming, we will have
(18:35):
G27 coming, we'll have GAFCON 8coming in 2028.
Before we had the GAFCO thatwent from happened uh 208 and
then you wait another fiveyears.
So we are coming together, andin this coming together, it so
happened that this this time weare saying, let us walk the
(18:58):
talk.
We started the journey in 208.
So you've you've started to mapout an agenda for this
conference next March?
Well, not yet, but this alsobecomes this is good, this feels
like it's the big agenda.
This is a this alone is a gooduh agenda, is being made.
Yeah, but this alone is good,it's good enough to for us to
(19:19):
spend.
You can spend uh a whole lot oftime talking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
I've never wanted to go to a bishop's conference
before, but I've got quiteexcited about this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
The key thing is this these bishops are coming
together, we'll spend timetogether in prayer, we'll spend
time together in fellowship andworship, we'll spend time
together to to even expound moreon this.
We'll spend together in times ofcelebration of our new identity,
(19:47):
the global Anglican Communion.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Now, is it a coincidence that the leaders,
the bishops of 85% of theworld's Anglicans will be
gathering in Abuja in March nextyear, while the leader of 15% of
the world's Anglicans, SarahMalali, will be being installed
over in London two weeks later?
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Uh it's just by coincidence because we didn't
plan it that way, they didn'tplan it that way.
But if it happens that way,praise the Lord.
We we'll move.
Maybe she will attend.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
Well, wouldn't it be great if she attended, if she
repented, signed the Jerusalem?
I mean, that's really thelonging, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Well, where there is a deeper issue, but if she
repented and signed theJerusalem declaration, what do
you think would happen?
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I think she'd have to resign.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
Well, but the thing is this that if she repented,
which is what we have calledfor, it will be an answered
prayer for the Sea ofCanterbury.
Because we have always called ifthey repent and come.
But that repentance also has torestore the Bible to the center.
(21:08):
That repentance cannot just bemore words that we say, it has
to be followed by action.
Now, having said that, I alsohave to say that there are
certain uh uh number ofprovinces that still have uh
struggle with uh uh with a womanin uh leadership.
(21:29):
And um so, but that has but thatthe essential is the repentance.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
Um what about bishops who haven't previously
been part of GAFCON?
I'm just thinking about my oldMoore College classmate Mark
Short, who's now the primate ofor the primate elect of
Australia.
Can he be invited?
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
He has to sign the Jerusalem Declaration.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Can you sign the Jerusalem Declaration?
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Well, if you wholeheartedly read the
Jerusalem Declaration andbelieve that this is what really
speaks to my heart, this is whoI am, this is what I buy.
Uh 100%, this is what I'mcommitted to, and you sign it,
you are welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
And I'm imagining, I mean, this statement's only 15
hours old, but um, I'm imaginingalready your phone is starting
to run hot with primates fromaround the world talking about
how do I fit in in this.
And uh, I mean, I'm justthinking about the excitement of
um well that statement by TitusChung.
(22:30):
Um, when I read that uh afterSarah Malale's appointment and
and how clear he was on thegospel, um, I mean, uh it he he
just sounds great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Yes.
Um uh his statement was a goodestatement.
I read it also.
Yeah.
But now the Jedi, the Jerusalemof Declaration.
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
Read it, study it, say it, and come.
And you'll be reaching out tothe others in the global south
in the same way?
SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Well, we don't need to because I think things are
clear, but our arms are open.
We are open to receive, we areopen to to embrace.
Um the it's interesting that youtalk about in the global south.
GAFCON is very interesting.
Global South or GSFA is veryinteresting because we cross in.
(23:26):
So if you look survival, yes.
So if you look at uh if you lookat uh um GAFCO, we are, I
believe, 12 uh primates.
It's only two that are not inGSFA.
It's me and Nigeria.
So the door is open, our armsare open.
(23:49):
And and after all, we aretalking about the Bible at the
center.
So if you read the JerusalemDeclaration and you fear that
commitment, that conviction,that's where it should be.
Come.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Now, other statements that have come out in
the last 15 hours, we've seen umuh uh the primate of the
Anglican Church of NorthAmerica, Steve Woods, and also
uh Bishop Julian Dodd, they'veboth put out statements, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Uh, and and I don't think that their statement
contradicts.
They don't contradict, theyactually complement.
I also believe that they have uhsigned the Jerusalem
Declaration.
I also believe that uh they arestanding in the right place, and
we invite others who feel thatGod is leading them to be part
(24:39):
of this.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
So where to from here?
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Where to from here?
We are heading to Abujah G26.
We are also saying, Yeah, think,pray, let God lead you.
Look at this Jerusalemdeclaration, and join this
(25:05):
global Anglican communion if youfeel that that's where God is
leading you.
There are some that are that arein the provinces that are
revisionists, and if I feel likeall my province is not coming,
you can join the branches thatare next to you or that are in
(25:28):
your country, you can be anaffiliate.
You see, for some it will taketime, time, and as it takes a
time, but you are on a journey,you are in the process, you are
welcome.
But the Jerusalem declarationneeds to be signed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
Thanks so much for coming to talk to us this
afternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
I'm so good to be here.
Thank you very much.
Do you want to pray for thecommunion?
Definitely, yes, I would love todo so.
Let us pray together, ourgracious Father.
We want to give you glory andpraise where you have got us
from to where we are today, forwhat you have done in our lives,
(26:18):
for the manifestation of yourlove through your Son Jesus
Christ, who died on the crossfor our sins.
We thank you for what he hasdone for us, we thank you for
what he has done in us, we thankyou for what he is doing through
us.
We pray, Father, that we'll becontinue to be obedient to your
(26:41):
word.
We pray that we will step outand preach the good news,
proclaim Christ unshamed free tothe nations.
We pray for those that are uh onthe fringes, and Lord, pray that
uh you will bring them in.
(27:02):
Also pray for those that havehardened their hearts, Lord,
that you will turn their heartsto you, may they repent, may
they put you to the center oftheir lives, may they heed your
word and be obedient to it.
May you have your own way, Lord,in our lives, in the life of
(27:25):
your church.
May you bring healing and unityaround the scriptures, in the
land of the witness, of JesusChrist.
In the name of the Father, inthe name of the Son.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
Archbishop Lawrence.
My name is Dominic Steele, andyou've been with us on the
pastors afternoon.
Thanks for your company.
We will look forward to youjoining us again next Tuesday
afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.