January 27, 2025 • 34 mins
Godliness vs Effectiveness - the Both/And Ministry dilemma
- Godliness vs Effectiveness
- Theology vs Pragmatics
- People centered vs Organisationally minded
- Leading from the front vs Serving others
- Courage to take a stand vs Quick to submit
- Others know I am one of them vs I am set apart to lead
- I lead patiently vs I lead with a sense of urgency
Most Christians at some point do start to wonder if they are the real deal. What God asks of us is so far reaching, so all encompassing, that when we come up short, we start to ask ourselves “Am I an imposter?” “Should I really be a leader?” and perhaps/Am even a Christian at all?’
Gary Millar is the Principal of Queensland’s Theological College and author of a new book ‘Both/And Ministry.’
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Godliness versus effectiveness, the both and
ministry dilemma, how to liveand lead like Jesus.
Gary Miller is our guest todayon the Pastor's Heart.
Dominic Steele is my name.
Godliness versus effectiveness,theology versus pragmatics,
People-centered ororganizationally minded, Leading
(00:29):
from the front versus servingothers, Courage to take a stand
versus quick to submit.
Others know I'm one of themversus I'm set apart to lead.
I lead patiently or I lead witha sense of urgency.
They are just a few of thecontroversies of Christian
ministry that we will solve inthe next 28 minutes on the
(00:50):
Pastor's Heart.
Gary Miller is the principal ofQueensland's Theological College
.
He's the author of this newbook, Both and Ministry, and
they're just some of thecontroversies that he deals with
in this book.
But, Gary, I wonder if we couldstart with your pastor's heart
and just a super vulnerablelittle paragraph that I found
(01:14):
well, it stopped me in my trackson page 136, when you wrote
most Christians at some point dostart to wonder if they're the
real deal.
What God asks of us is sofar-reaching, so
all-encompassing, that when wecome up short we start to ask
ourselves am I an imposter?
(01:35):
Should I really be a leader?
And perhaps am I even aChristian?
After all, you were hoping Iwouldn't notice that paragraph.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That's why it's on page 136.
Yeah.
I do think, to do any kind ofpublic ministry, and it doesn't
really matter which part of theBible you're dealing with.
As soon as we come to thedemands of the gospel and the
wholehearted response that youknow that our magnificent God
(02:07):
asks of us, requires, deserves,I think, to call people to that,
certainly in our morevulnerable moments.
There is something deeplyexposing about that and I think
you know, when we reflect on theparts of the New Testament that
I think I honestly prefer toignore, you know that we should.
(02:28):
You know whoever loves the LordJesus, christ should walk as he
did.
You know that we're supposed toimitate Paul as he imitates
Christ, even to say those words.
You know, I feel like we shouldadd a qualification.
You know, but I'm doing thatreally poorly.
And I think I suppose at theheart of the book is.
(02:50):
I just want to encourage all ofus, myself and everyone else,
to actually step into that andown the fact that we are
actually called to live and tolead like the Lord Jesus.
Actually called to live and tolead like the Lord Jesus and
that is both immensely humblingand immensely demanding,
(03:16):
something that will by nature,require us to pour everything
into it and to live a life ofongoing repentance and lifelong
learning.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So just help me get your thesis, because you're not
saying just work harder.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
That's not what you're saying, no, I think one
of the things about being theprincipal of a theological
college and kind of constantlybeing involved in training
people is that I think sometimeswe notice, as we look out on
the church landscape almost onestep removed, we just notice
that at some points we'reemphasizing some parts of the
(03:50):
gospel or the demands of thegospel and we're no longer
emphasizing others, or we'restarting to assume things.
And I do think in Australia atthe moment, I think over the
last 10, 15 years, we work veryhard at doing ministry
effectively, organizing church,thinking strategically, seeking
(04:15):
to plant churches, to reach intonew communities.
But I think we've assumed thatcharacter matters, we all agree
on that, but we haven't actuallychampioned Christ-like
leadership or leading like theLord Jesus in quite the same way
(04:36):
or to quite the same degree aswe've championed being effective
, being strategic, even beingfruitful, being effective, being
strategic, even being fruitful.
And I think the book is justhopefully a humble, gentle
reminder to myself and everyoneelse that we actually do need to
be strategic leaders, but weactually need to be gentle,
(04:58):
humble, godly leaders as well.
And just to take one of thosethings it won't do, it's not
good enough, it's not what Godasks us to do and it won't lead
to the health of the church.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So I mean, I'm just opening up page 116 here and
what do I think about leadership?
And we'll put it up on thescreen so that people can see
this page.
But you're asking me to ratemyself from five through to one
on how do I think aboutleadership.
I prioritise godliness, andthen five through to one, I
(05:34):
prioritise effectiveness.
Yes, and what are you wantingme to do?
Here's the dilemma godlinessand effectiveness.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, I think what I really want, what I want you to
do, is to think about, like,naturally, where do I land?
You know, naturally am I someonewho just thinks about
leadership, thinks aboutstrategy, and then focuses on
that, whilst living with thefact that I'm really not as
godly as I'd like to be, butit's kind of okay because, look,
(06:05):
I'm a strategic leader, whereasI think what Jesus calls us to
is actually to be both strategicand godly.
And so identifying that thenallows me to say I need to be
very careful, because myinstinct will be to think about
strategy, to think about thenext church we're planting, to
(06:25):
think about how I can organizethe team better and to say that
almost compensates for the factthat I'm not really growing in
godliness myself.
And I think that goes back tothe kind of imposter syndrome,
because I know for me, you know,if I'm faced with something
that I'm really not very good at, or an area where I'm convicted
(06:46):
that I'm not being gentle withpeople, I'm not lovingly
investing in people, the greattemptation is to say fact that
I'm not all that godly or I'mnot loving people.
(07:09):
Well, and I think that's arecipe for disaster both for me
and for the church, because I'vebasically said I can focus on
50% of what Jesus asks us to do,of what it means to be a leader
in the church of the Lord Jesus, when actually what we need to
do is press into both of thosethings at the same time.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Every time I talk to David O'Mara, the minister of
the church next door.
Yes.
I wish I could pray like him,and I'm just reminded that he's
such a prayerful guy.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And I feel like, oh, I want to be like you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, and I think that's.
I think we need to be humbleenough to relate to each other
like that, and it's not thatwe're saying, okay, I'm going to
shut down everything in churchand all we're going to do in our
churches, you know, teach thebible and pray.
But I think we we do have to behumble enough that when we meet
others, we're we're looking tothem and allowing others to spur
(08:14):
us on to be more like the lordjesus and also, you know, in the
kindness of god for them, youknow to to the kindness of God
for them, to expose some of thegrowth areas that there are for
all of us.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I mean I'll go to the next one.
You've gone.
I think theologically versus, Ithink practically.
Yes, now where are we coming?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
a cropper at both ends there, yeah of the air and
yeah, yeah, well I I think thatthe danger is that when we
pursue, when we pursue growth,for example, as we must, it's.
It's very easy to start off,you know, with that being a
thoroughly theological thing,but at the end of the day we put
(08:58):
ourselves under pressure.
You know the the church mustgrow, so we will do whatever it
takes to allow us to grow.
So we'll just keep tweaking ourpractice without ever thinking
about what the theologicalramifications or undergirdings
of that are.
We always need to think bothpractically and theologically.
Now, of course, at the other end, it's possible just to be so
(09:21):
concerned with orthodoxy that wenever do anything.
But the answer isn't this kindof middle ground which is kind
of part theological, partpragmatic.
Everything we do should be theresult of theological you know,
solid theological thinking, butalso be deeply practical and
(09:42):
pragmatic in the middle of thecommunity we're in, in the
church that we're part of, as weseek to reach the lost.
So I think all of us kind oftend to kind of lean in one
direction, but often it's thetheological thinkers who are
saying no, we probably shouldn'tdo that, we need to think about
it more.
And the practical thinkers aregoing oh you know, let's just
(10:03):
get on and do it.
But I think both of those areactually not good for the health
of the church.
We actually need to berigorously theological and we
need to be deeply practical,constantly thinking about both
ends of the line, in order thatwhat we do is both honouring to
(10:27):
God, it's richly gospel-shaped,christ-centred, and practically
sensible and effective.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So, as you say that, I think I'm analysing myself, as
you say this, and I'm thinkingI think I'm trying to be deeply
theological, yes, but I'm alsothinking if we don't grow, then
we won't be able to afford togive people pay rises next year
and we'll drop in staff and allthose kind of things.
(10:55):
And so I've got those kind ofthings and I feel like my
friends, who are kind of bynature right up the theological
end, would look at me and thinkI'm a complete sellout
pragmatist.
Do you know that?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes, yeah.
And I think there is a sense inwhich, if you're doing both of
these people at both ends won'tbe all that happy with you
because you won't that at onelevel you won't be.
The pragmatist will beimpatient because they're saying
get on with it, just do it.
And the theological people willsay you're far too pragmatic.
(11:28):
But we actually don't have anoption to let go.
And I think if you do let go ofeither of those poles, you know
, even I mean I'm not saying anyof us would say oh, I'm not
going to think theologicallyanymore, but I think it's
worthwhile just stopping andsaying is my practice actually
theological or have I just sortof abandoned the theological
(11:49):
hard thinking to just run witheffective ministry?
And I think we just need tohold on to both of them, I am
people-centered versus I amorganizationally minded.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
And again, I hear some of people who are, I would
say, deeply people centred,critical of anything that
resembles a structure in achurch.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, again, there is a sense, dominic, in which I
feel this book is just, you know, 150 pages of a statement of
the obvious.
But we really do need to beboth and I think there's
something in the water just nowthat we do tend to say.
I am like this Please don't askme to do anything else or be
(12:36):
anything else and I'll just plyon in my.
You know, I'll ply my ownfurrow here.
So the organisers just get onwith planning the church and
people are almost treated, ifwe're not careful, like an
obstacle.
You know they're disrupting theorganization and those who
(12:57):
naturally love people can veryeasily oppose organization to
being loving, when actually weall know in church, if you're
going to love people, well, thatdoes include making sure that
the church is running in a waywhich facilitates that.
But in the same way that youcan't just say I'm never going
(13:17):
to think about organization, I'mjust going to kind of be warm
towards people.
It will be chaotic, disruptive,you'll not be serving people,
well, you know, and this.
But the same thing works theother direction.
You can have the slickest shipyou know that has ever sailed
the sea because you're so wellorganized, but actually people
(13:39):
are people and we need to berelational and I think for all
of us I do think we tend to oneor the other- but we don't get
to choose.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I take it you've got a church in mind in Brisbane
that falls one way and a churchin mind that falls the other way
.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I actually don't, but I think most churches will tend
.
I think most churches will tend.
I can think of examples ofchurches where the past was
immensely warm and but theyended up being quite a cold,
quite a cold place to be because, you know we, you know the, the
system was prioritized,actually, over the people,
whereas you've, you've got tothink of both at the same time.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And how do you do it?
Well, it's like you know you'rethe principal, you write the
book.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
How do you do it?
You get up in the morning andyou throw yourself in the Lord
Jesus and you say Lord Jesus,this is too hard, but please
help me to do both of thesethings today.
And I think that if we have thatkind of vision of the community
of the people of God, one ofthe things it does is that it
(15:05):
reminds all of us that wegenuinely need each other.
You know we need other leadersto lead with us and you know, I
mean, I think at some level youknow there has to be a plurality
of leadership in the church.
But also it does just underlinethat as a community, you know
we need to work on these thingstogether.
(15:26):
It tells me also none of us hasit right, none of us has
everything that we need, so weactually need to keep working.
I think the other thing,dominic, for me, I think what it
does is it takes away my rightto say look, you know, I'm
(15:47):
really more of an A person.
Don't ask me to do any of thatB stuff, even when it's kind of
clearly asked of us by the LordJesus himself.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I mean while I'm on the roll of personally revealing
paragraphs from you, page 37,unfortunately in my case, I've
always been labelled as somevariation of the power-crazed
dictator for life and informedthat I share a personality type
with the lack of Genghis Khan,much to the amusement of my
family and coworkers.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, those personality type tests that
never shed a beautiful light onme Well.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I only know you from a distance, but I hadn't thought
of that.
But the people who know you sayyou're like Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, I think instinctively I am a okay,
there's a mountain Like okay,let's plant a flag on top of
that.
You know, my innate leadershipstyle is this is a brilliant
idea.
Let's go, come on, everybodyfollow me.
Yeah, and I want everyone tofollow me.
And to me it seems the mostobvious thing in the world to
(17:04):
take that hill and there's noone else going up there.
So, okay, I'll go.
Let's go everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean I watched you last year by a theological
college, you know, and I mean Ijust stood in awe as you climbed
that mountain.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Well, I mean God was incredibly generous to us and,
you know, did something thatnone of us could do on our own.
But you know that is an example.
I mean, I knew I couldn't dothat, but I wasn't actually
lying awake at night kind ofworrying about it because it was
beyond me, but just the way Godhas made me, I was going.
(17:39):
Okay, I'm in this position, wehave to give this a go, let's go
.
But there are other times whenI kind of operate in the same
mold and what I have needed tolearn and I think still need to
learn is, for example, there areother people on our team at
college and people I work withand staff and people in church
(18:01):
People who teach pastoralcounseling?
Yes, they don't, and things likethat they don't necessarily
respond to that.
You know they actually needsomeone to sit down with them
and patiently take them throughthe process and give them time.
Give them time to reflect, givethem time to, you know, to get
on board, whereas instinctively,you know, what I want to do is
just go.
It's really obvious why are wesitting here?
(18:23):
Let's go.
But I think what Jesus asks ofus is we actually learn to do
both.
You know that we lead people inthe way that they need to be
led, rather than simply thething that is most comfortable
for me.
And you know we hear this indifferent ways.
(18:44):
I think the most common is Ihear people say, you know, quite
often not necessarily leadersoh, I'm an extra, you know I'm
an extrovert, and the subtext isso don't, don't ask me to be
sensitive to anyone.
You know I'm just, I'm justbeing me.
I'm out there or you know, I'man introvert.
Don't don't ask me to kind ofstep out of my comfort zone and
(19:08):
go and welcome the outsider.
Now we are who we are, you know.
However, we define personalitytypes.
Whatever you know, we know whatthey're, roughly what they're
saying.
Some of us are more outgoing,some of us are less.
Some of us are moreconscientious, some of us are
less, but but if I'm more,outgoing, some of us are less,
some of us are moreconscientious, some of us are
less Absolutely.
(19:28):
But if I'm more outgoing, youknow I do need to deny myself,
take up my cross and kind ofshut up sometimes and listen to
other people.
Similarly, you know, even thoseof us who are perhaps gentler,
quieter at times, what God asksof us is that we step out of our
comfort zone.
We love other people, weinitiate the conversation, and I
(19:52):
think what we can't do is go.
This is me, therefore.
I'm off the hook and I think wedo that quite a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Really.
Yeah, really.
Keep pushing into that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think, if we go back to pastors, I think it's
very easy to say I'm a strategicthinker.
You know I'm kind of I'm aleader.
You know I love new things, Ilove initiative.
I I'm a leader.
You know I love new things, Ilove initiative, I love breaking
new ground.
So therefore, if people won'tget on board with me, kind of
(20:36):
not my job to put my arm aroundtheir shoulder to care for them,
to listen to them, to bringthem along or even to go and sit
with them.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Now I mean, you might be privileged in a big church
where you can say not my job.
But in a smaller church, surelyyou can't say that.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No, I don't think you can.
But even in a big church, Ithink sometimes we mix up what
my role is and the church may.
You know, the church mayallocate very specific roles, so
it's not necessarily the seniorpastor job to visit everyone in
hospital.
I think it's quite easy, though, to go from that to.
(21:20):
You know, it's not the role forwhich I'm employed to be to,
it's not my responsibility to becaring you know that that,
irrespective of what our jobdescription says, there are,
there are things that thatChrist asks of us.
You know we still need to growin godliness.
(21:40):
You know we still need to beloving, we still need to be
strategic.
You know it's not the.
The pastoral care persondoesn't, you know, doesn't get
to to say, okay, all I ever haveto do is care for people, I
don't need to think about how wedo this most effectively for
the benefit of most people inchurch.
And similarly, you know the,you know the pastor for vision
(22:02):
or strategy doesn't get to say,well, I get to trample over
everybody in the interest of,you know, future growth.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I have the courage to take a stand versus I'm quick
to submit to others.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, it's got like proverbs really.
Yeah, I think again.
You know, there are some of uswho are wired in a way where we
I don't want to overstate this,but we almost enjoy conflict in
(22:40):
a strange way.
We don't mind, you know, whenbattle lines are drawn and we
have to stand for the truth.
But I think it's very easy forleaders to get into the kind of
rut where that's just how theyrelate, Whereas there are other
times, even for those of us whosort of thrive in conflict
(23:01):
situations in some ways.
But we also have to be veryquick, ready to admit that we're
wrong when we are wrong, andnot just license ourselves to
relate constantly as ifeverything is a hill to die on.
And I think we need to workagainst the grain a little bit.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Whatever our grind is yeah yeah, in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Whatever?
Our grind is.
Yeah, yeah.
So you know I mean I aminstinctively, you know I am
more prone, you know I'm moreprone to be oppositional You're
from Northern Ireland, yeah, Iplay my national genetic
heritage, yeah than to be, youknow, consensual all the time.
(23:47):
So I know that about myself andwhilst I always want to be
faithful where standing firm isrequired, I also know that for
me, sometimes I'm more likely togo into that oppositional mode
when really what I should do isbe quiet, listen to other people
(24:08):
and realise that they're rightand I've got something to learn
from them.
And in this situation, what Ineed to do is to be quiet and
submit, or to thank someone forcorrection, or to realise, yeah,
I think we are going inslightly the wrong direction.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Let's talk about the sin of Christian leaders and
some of the disqualifying sin ofChristian leaders and you've
said that, while individualcircumstances have been
different, they all have this incommon the individual
overlooked, ignored or excusedthemselves from living for Jesus
in one or more key areas of theChristian life as described
(24:48):
plainly in the Bible.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I think, just reflecting a little bit on some
of this kind of spectacularfailures in the evangelical
world across the world, whetherthe Mars Hill stuff or others,
and even just again seeing someof my peers trying to reflect,
(25:12):
was there anything to learn?
What do I need to take to heart?
And I do think there is acommon thread in many of the
situations which made I thinkmany of us ask how could they
keep behaving in the way inwhich they did for so long?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Excusing clearly sinful behavior for a long time.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yes, Well, even you know, when you think of the Mars
Hill thing, that's highlydocumented.
I mean, you know Mark Driscolltreated people appallingly for a
very long time.
Yeah.
And I'm not, you know.
Know, obviously there werepeople who tried to try to speak
into that, but, but the realitywas people were effectively
saying, but look at how fruitfulhe's been.
(25:57):
And I think he himself, youknow, would have said at points,
look at how big my church is,yeah, but I think, I think we
can all do that, know, and itactually comes back to the
imposter syndrome that oftenwhen we feel there's some
weakness in our life, in ourministry, what we tend to do is
focus on the strength, and Ithink that is a long-term recipe
(26:19):
for disaster and what it can dois it leads us to live a double
life, but it points it also.
It also leads us as the churchor as peers, to excuse ungodly
behavior in the lives of, ofleaders by saying but they are
(26:40):
immensely fruitful, or look athow able they are.
Or, you know, and I'm notsaying this to kind of start a
witch hunt, but I think togetherwe do actually need to to look
for integrity and evenchrist-likeness.
And I think you know I've been,I think I'm persuaded that in
our circles, how do we, how dowe evaluate each other?
(27:03):
You know, how do we allocaterespect?
And often it's on the basis ofministry effectiveness, not
necessarily godliness.
When I say faithfulness, Idon't mean opposed to
fruitfulness, but people whoquite clearly are living humbly
(27:25):
and authentically for the LordJesus and seeking to be godly in
everything they do and seekingto be effective ministers.
I think we're prone to seeingthe particularly gifted people
and at points then saying butthey are massively gifted,
they're massively fruitful.
Yeah, they don't treat peoplevery well, but you know, look at
(27:52):
what God is doing through them.
And I think we have a defectiveway of seeing what God asks of
us, what God wants for hischurch, when we do that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Now not thinking, if you like, about the superstar
like Driscoll but, the averagepastor that has been trained at
your place?
Do you know, yes, yeah, andthey're now 20 years out, but
they've got a secret sin.
Yeah, what do you want to sayto that guy who might be
listening now?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Oh, come into the light.
I mean this is we're called toa life of repentance and faith.
And you know it's funny.
I was looking at Luther's 95Theses the other day.
You know, the first one is youknow, the whole life to which
we're called is a life ofrepentance.
We all have things that we needto repent of and collapse onto
(28:48):
Jesus again.
And you know, whether we'repastors or not, or leaders or
not, we fall foul of the greatlie that you're better to hide
that stuff, to suppress it.
You know, to live with theguilt rather than bring it into
the light, and no forgivenessand cleansing and restoration
(29:10):
and re-energization.
So you know, I think that'swhere we just have to be.
I think we could be much betterat encouraging each other to
live lives of repentance andfaith together.
That that's the norm, thatalmost having to repent it's
just the normal Christian life,rather than this enormous burden
(29:32):
of shame that leaders shouldn'thave to repent.
They really should.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So you want the conversation to change?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, I think I don't want to overstate it.
I think, as I said, the greatstrength is that we have been
talking a lot about how do weget the gospel out effectively.
But I do think we've kind ofassumed, you know that the
character piece of, you knowcharacter, competency, you know
(30:02):
convictions, I just think thecharacter thing we all want to
see people grow in Christ-likecharacter.
But I think for those of us whoare kind of in ministry, I
think we've often assumed thatpiece because we've gone, it's
the competency that I'm really.
I'm feeling a lack ofcompetency here.
(30:22):
So I will work really hard togrow in my competency and we
need to, but we actually need tocontinually grow in christ-like
character as well and and so toslightly change the
conversation.
But you know, as you know, Imean, in a way there's there's
nothing new under the sun.
(30:43):
You know that probably ourgeneration, you know, the
generation before us, wereprobably, you know, strong in
character and godliness, notalways, not always so great on
competence, and so theconversation changes a bit and
our generation comes and youknow, along with those behind us
(31:03):
, we've said no, we need to, weneed to do this better, which is
true.
And we need to think aboutrunning teams, we need to think
about organizing church, we needto think about effective
evangelism I just want to sayyes and we also need to think
about Christlikeness for alifetime, for the long haul.
(31:26):
And I think often, you know,we've had some very kind of
godly leaders all of us, youknow like, speaking into our
lives and going ahead of us.
I think every generation tendsto assume some things, but the
problem is they assume them,maybe they are godly, but they
don't necessarily pass on thatto the next generation.
(31:47):
They say this needs to change,but then our generation comes
along and we have a completelydifferent set of strengths and
weaknesses, you know, and issues, and I just suspect that
christ-likeness is one of thethings that tends to have been
assumed and, as a result, endsup being a bit neglected, and we
need to take hold of it again,without letting go of the
(32:12):
competent stuff that we've we'vespent so much time thinking
about thanks so much for comingin.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Thanks for having me.
As always, dominic gary millerhas been my guest on the
pastor's heart.
His new book is out both andministry Living and Leading Like
Jesus.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Godliness versus effectiveness, the both and
ministry dilemma, how to liveand lead like Jesus.
Gary Miller is our guest todayon the Pastor's Heart.
Dominic Steele is my name.
Godliness versus effectiveness,theology versus pragmatics,
People-centered ororganizationally minded, Leading
(00:29):
from the front versus servingothers, Courage to take a stand
versus quick to submit.
Others know I'm one of themversus I'm set apart to lead.
I lead patiently or I lead witha sense of urgency.
They are just a few of thecontroversies of Christian
ministry that we will solve inthe next 28 minutes on the
(00:50):
Pastor's Heart.
Gary Miller is the principal ofQueensland's Theological College
.
He's the author of this newbook, Both and Ministry, and
they're just some of thecontroversies that he deals with
in this book.
But, Gary, I wonder if we couldstart with your pastor's heart
and just a super vulnerablelittle paragraph that I found
(01:14):
well, it stopped me in my trackson page 136, when you wrote
most Christians at some point dostart to wonder if they're the
real deal.
What God asks of us is sofar-reaching, so
all-encompassing, that when wecome up short we start to ask
ourselves am I an imposter?
(01:35):
Should I really be a leader?
And perhaps am I even aChristian?
After all, you were hoping Iwouldn't notice that paragraph.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That's why it's on page 136.
Yeah.
I do think, to do any kind ofpublic ministry, and it doesn't
really matter which part of theBible you're dealing with.
As soon as we come to thedemands of the gospel and the
wholehearted response that youknow that our magnificent God
(02:07):
asks of us, requires, deserves,I think, to call people to that,
certainly in our morevulnerable moments.
There is something deeplyexposing about that and I think
you know, when we reflect on theparts of the New Testament that
I think I honestly prefer toignore, you know that we should.
(02:28):
You know whoever loves the LordJesus, christ should walk as he
did.
You know that we're supposed toimitate Paul as he imitates
Christ, even to say those words.
You know, I feel like we shouldadd a qualification.
You know, but I'm doing thatreally poorly.
And I think I suppose at theheart of the book is.
(02:50):
I just want to encourage all ofus, myself and everyone else,
to actually step into that andown the fact that we are
actually called to live and tolead like the Lord Jesus.
Actually called to live and tolead like the Lord Jesus and
that is both immensely humblingand immensely demanding,
(03:16):
something that will by nature,require us to pour everything
into it and to live a life ofongoing repentance and lifelong
learning.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So just help me get your thesis, because you're not
saying just work harder.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
That's not what you're saying, no, I think one
of the things about being theprincipal of a theological
college and kind of constantlybeing involved in training
people is that I think sometimeswe notice, as we look out on
the church landscape almost onestep removed, we just notice
that at some points we'reemphasizing some parts of the
(03:50):
gospel or the demands of thegospel and we're no longer
emphasizing others, or we'restarting to assume things.
And I do think in Australia atthe moment, I think over the
last 10, 15 years, we work veryhard at doing ministry
effectively, organizing church,thinking strategically, seeking
(04:15):
to plant churches, to reach intonew communities.
But I think we've assumed thatcharacter matters, we all agree
on that, but we haven't actuallychampioned Christ-like
leadership or leading like theLord Jesus in quite the same way
(04:36):
or to quite the same degree aswe've championed being effective
, being strategic, even beingfruitful, being effective, being
strategic, even being fruitful.
And I think the book is justhopefully a humble, gentle
reminder to myself and everyoneelse that we actually do need to
be strategic leaders, but weactually need to be gentle,
(04:58):
humble, godly leaders as well.
And just to take one of thosethings it won't do, it's not
good enough, it's not what Godasks us to do and it won't lead
to the health of the church.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So I mean, I'm just opening up page 116 here and
what do I think about leadership?
And we'll put it up on thescreen so that people can see
this page.
But you're asking me to ratemyself from five through to one
on how do I think aboutleadership.
I prioritise godliness, andthen five through to one, I
(05:34):
prioritise effectiveness.
Yes, and what are you wantingme to do?
Here's the dilemma godlinessand effectiveness.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, I think what I really want, what I want you to
do, is to think about, like,naturally, where do I land?
You know, naturally am I someonewho just thinks about
leadership, thinks aboutstrategy, and then focuses on
that, whilst living with thefact that I'm really not as
godly as I'd like to be, butit's kind of okay because, look,
(06:05):
I'm a strategic leader, whereasI think what Jesus calls us to
is actually to be both strategicand godly.
And so identifying that thenallows me to say I need to be
very careful, because myinstinct will be to think about
strategy, to think about thenext church we're planting, to
(06:25):
think about how I can organizethe team better and to say that
almost compensates for the factthat I'm not really growing in
godliness myself.
And I think that goes back tothe kind of imposter syndrome,
because I know for me, you know,if I'm faced with something
that I'm really not very good at, or an area where I'm convicted
(06:46):
that I'm not being gentle withpeople, I'm not lovingly
investing in people, the greattemptation is to say fact that
I'm not all that godly or I'mnot loving people.
(07:09):
Well, and I think that's arecipe for disaster both for me
and for the church, because I'vebasically said I can focus on
50% of what Jesus asks us to do,of what it means to be a leader
in the church of the Lord Jesus, when actually what we need to
do is press into both of thosethings at the same time.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Every time I talk to David O'Mara, the minister of
the church next door.
Yes.
I wish I could pray like him,and I'm just reminded that he's
such a prayerful guy.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And I feel like, oh, I want to be like you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, and I think that's.
I think we need to be humbleenough to relate to each other
like that, and it's not thatwe're saying, okay, I'm going to
shut down everything in churchand all we're going to do in our
churches, you know, teach thebible and pray.
But I think we we do have to behumble enough that when we meet
others, we're we're looking tothem and allowing others to spur
(08:14):
us on to be more like the lordjesus and also, you know, in the
kindness of god for them, youknow to to the kindness of God
for them, to expose some of thegrowth areas that there are for
all of us.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I mean I'll go to the next one.
You've gone.
I think theologically versus, Ithink practically.
Yes, now where are we coming?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
a cropper at both ends there, yeah of the air and
yeah, yeah, well I I think thatthe danger is that when we
pursue, when we pursue growth,for example, as we must, it's.
It's very easy to start off,you know, with that being a
thoroughly theological thing,but at the end of the day we put
(08:58):
ourselves under pressure.
You know the the church mustgrow, so we will do whatever it
takes to allow us to grow.
So we'll just keep tweaking ourpractice without ever thinking
about what the theologicalramifications or undergirdings
of that are.
We always need to think bothpractically and theologically.
Now, of course, at the other end, it's possible just to be so
(09:21):
concerned with orthodoxy that wenever do anything.
But the answer isn't this kindof middle ground which is kind
of part theological, partpragmatic.
Everything we do should be theresult of theological you know,
solid theological thinking, butalso be deeply practical and
(09:42):
pragmatic in the middle of thecommunity we're in, in the
church that we're part of, as weseek to reach the lost.
So I think all of us kind oftend to kind of lean in one
direction, but often it's thetheological thinkers who are
saying no, we probably shouldn'tdo that, we need to think about
it more.
And the practical thinkers aregoing oh you know, let's just
(10:03):
get on and do it.
But I think both of those areactually not good for the health
of the church.
We actually need to berigorously theological and we
need to be deeply practical,constantly thinking about both
ends of the line, in order thatwhat we do is both honouring to
(10:27):
God, it's richly gospel-shaped,christ-centred, and practically
sensible and effective.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So, as you say that, I think I'm analysing myself, as
you say this, and I'm thinkingI think I'm trying to be deeply
theological, yes, but I'm alsothinking if we don't grow, then
we won't be able to afford togive people pay rises next year
and we'll drop in staff and allthose kind of things.
(10:55):
And so I've got those kind ofthings and I feel like my
friends, who are kind of bynature right up the theological
end, would look at me and thinkI'm a complete sellout
pragmatist.
Do you know that?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes, yeah.
And I think there is a sense inwhich, if you're doing both of
these people at both ends won'tbe all that happy with you
because you won't that at onelevel you won't be.
The pragmatist will beimpatient because they're saying
get on with it, just do it.
And the theological people willsay you're far too pragmatic.
(11:28):
But we actually don't have anoption to let go.
And I think if you do let go ofeither of those poles, you know
, even I mean I'm not saying anyof us would say oh, I'm not
going to think theologicallyanymore, but I think it's
worthwhile just stopping andsaying is my practice actually
theological or have I just sortof abandoned the theological
(11:49):
hard thinking to just run witheffective ministry?
And I think we just need tohold on to both of them, I am
people-centered versus I amorganizationally minded.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
And again, I hear some of people who are, I would
say, deeply people centred,critical of anything that
resembles a structure in achurch.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, again, there is a sense, dominic, in which I
feel this book is just, you know, 150 pages of a statement of
the obvious.
But we really do need to beboth and I think there's
something in the water just nowthat we do tend to say.
I am like this Please don't askme to do anything else or be
(12:36):
anything else and I'll just plyon in my.
You know, I'll ply my ownfurrow here.
So the organisers just get onwith planning the church and
people are almost treated, ifwe're not careful, like an
obstacle.
You know they're disrupting theorganization and those who
(12:57):
naturally love people can veryeasily oppose organization to
being loving, when actually weall know in church, if you're
going to love people, well, thatdoes include making sure that
the church is running in a waywhich facilitates that.
But in the same way that youcan't just say I'm never going
(13:17):
to think about organization, I'mjust going to kind of be warm
towards people.
It will be chaotic, disruptive,you'll not be serving people,
well, you know, and this.
But the same thing works theother direction.
You can have the slickest shipyou know that has ever sailed
the sea because you're so wellorganized, but actually people
(13:39):
are people and we need to berelational and I think for all
of us I do think we tend to oneor the other- but we don't get
to choose.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I take it you've got a church in mind in Brisbane
that falls one way and a churchin mind that falls the other way
.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I actually don't, but I think most churches will tend
.
I think most churches will tend.
I can think of examples ofchurches where the past was
immensely warm and but theyended up being quite a cold,
quite a cold place to be because, you know we, you know the, the
system was prioritized,actually, over the people,
whereas you've, you've got tothink of both at the same time.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And how do you do it?
Well, it's like you know you'rethe principal, you write the
book.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
How do you do it?
You get up in the morning andyou throw yourself in the Lord
Jesus and you say Lord Jesus,this is too hard, but please
help me to do both of thesethings today.
And I think that if we have thatkind of vision of the community
of the people of God, one ofthe things it does is that it
(15:05):
reminds all of us that wegenuinely need each other.
You know we need other leadersto lead with us and you know, I
mean, I think at some level youknow there has to be a plurality
of leadership in the church.
But also it does just underlinethat as a community, you know
we need to work on these thingstogether.
(15:26):
It tells me also none of us hasit right, none of us has
everything that we need, so weactually need to keep working.
I think the other thing,dominic, for me, I think what it
does is it takes away my rightto say look, you know, I'm
(15:47):
really more of an A person.
Don't ask me to do any of thatB stuff, even when it's kind of
clearly asked of us by the LordJesus himself.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I mean while I'm on the roll of personally revealing
paragraphs from you, page 37,unfortunately in my case, I've
always been labelled as somevariation of the power-crazed
dictator for life and informedthat I share a personality type
with the lack of Genghis Khan,much to the amusement of my
family and coworkers.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, those personality type tests that
never shed a beautiful light onme Well.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I only know you from a distance, but I hadn't thought
of that.
But the people who know you sayyou're like Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, I think instinctively I am a okay,
there's a mountain Like okay,let's plant a flag on top of
that.
You know, my innate leadershipstyle is this is a brilliant
idea.
Let's go, come on, everybodyfollow me.
Yeah, and I want everyone tofollow me.
And to me it seems the mostobvious thing in the world to
(17:04):
take that hill and there's noone else going up there.
So, okay, I'll go.
Let's go everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean I watched you last year by a theological
college, you know, and I mean Ijust stood in awe as you climbed
that mountain.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Well, I mean God was incredibly generous to us and,
you know, did something thatnone of us could do on our own.
But you know that is an example.
I mean, I knew I couldn't dothat, but I wasn't actually
lying awake at night kind ofworrying about it because it was
beyond me, but just the way Godhas made me, I was going.
(17:39):
Okay, I'm in this position, wehave to give this a go, let's go
.
But there are other times whenI kind of operate in the same
mold and what I have needed tolearn and I think still need to
learn is, for example, there areother people on our team at
college and people I work withand staff and people in church
(18:01):
People who teach pastoralcounseling?
Yes, they don't, and things likethat they don't necessarily
respond to that.
You know they actually needsomeone to sit down with them
and patiently take them throughthe process and give them time.
Give them time to reflect, givethem time to, you know, to get
on board, whereas instinctively,you know, what I want to do is
just go.
It's really obvious why are wesitting here?
(18:23):
Let's go.
But I think what Jesus asks ofus is we actually learn to do
both.
You know that we lead people inthe way that they need to be
led, rather than simply thething that is most comfortable
for me.
And you know we hear this indifferent ways.
(18:44):
I think the most common is Ihear people say, you know, quite
often not necessarily leadersoh, I'm an extra, you know I'm
an extrovert, and the subtext isso don't, don't ask me to be
sensitive to anyone.
You know I'm just, I'm justbeing me.
I'm out there or you know, I'man introvert.
Don't don't ask me to kind ofstep out of my comfort zone and
(19:08):
go and welcome the outsider.
Now we are who we are, you know.
However, we define personalitytypes.
Whatever you know, we know whatthey're, roughly what they're
saying.
Some of us are more outgoing,some of us are less.
Some of us are moreconscientious, some of us are
less, but but if I'm more,outgoing, some of us are less,
some of us are moreconscientious, some of us are
less Absolutely.
(19:28):
But if I'm more outgoing, youknow I do need to deny myself,
take up my cross and kind ofshut up sometimes and listen to
other people.
Similarly, you know, even thoseof us who are perhaps gentler,
quieter at times, what God asksof us is that we step out of our
comfort zone.
We love other people, weinitiate the conversation, and I
(19:52):
think what we can't do is go.
This is me, therefore.
I'm off the hook and I think wedo that quite a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Really.
Yeah, really.
Keep pushing into that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think, if we go back to pastors, I think it's
very easy to say I'm a strategicthinker.
You know I'm kind of I'm aleader.
You know I love new things, Ilove initiative.
I I'm a leader.
You know I love new things, Ilove initiative, I love breaking
new ground.
So therefore, if people won'tget on board with me, kind of
(20:36):
not my job to put my arm aroundtheir shoulder to care for them,
to listen to them, to bringthem along or even to go and sit
with them.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Now I mean, you might be privileged in a big church
where you can say not my job.
But in a smaller church, surelyyou can't say that.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No, I don't think you can.
But even in a big church, Ithink sometimes we mix up what
my role is and the church may.
You know, the church mayallocate very specific roles, so
it's not necessarily the seniorpastor job to visit everyone in
hospital.
I think it's quite easy, though, to go from that to.
(21:20):
You know, it's not the role forwhich I'm employed to be to,
it's not my responsibility to becaring you know that that,
irrespective of what our jobdescription says, there are,
there are things that thatChrist asks of us.
You know we still need to growin godliness.
(21:40):
You know we still need to beloving, we still need to be
strategic.
You know it's not the.
The pastoral care persondoesn't, you know, doesn't get
to to say, okay, all I ever haveto do is care for people, I
don't need to think about how wedo this most effectively for
the benefit of most people inchurch.
And similarly, you know the,you know the pastor for vision
(22:02):
or strategy doesn't get to say,well, I get to trample over
everybody in the interest of,you know, future growth.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I have the courage to take a stand versus I'm quick
to submit to others.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, it's got like proverbs really.
Yeah, I think again.
You know, there are some of uswho are wired in a way where we
I don't want to overstate this,but we almost enjoy conflict in
(22:40):
a strange way.
We don't mind, you know, whenbattle lines are drawn and we
have to stand for the truth.
But I think it's very easy forleaders to get into the kind of
rut where that's just how theyrelate, Whereas there are other
times, even for those of us whosort of thrive in conflict
(23:01):
situations in some ways.
But we also have to be veryquick, ready to admit that we're
wrong when we are wrong, andnot just license ourselves to
relate constantly as ifeverything is a hill to die on.
And I think we need to workagainst the grain a little bit.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Whatever our grind is yeah yeah, in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Whatever?
Our grind is.
Yeah, yeah.
So you know I mean I aminstinctively, you know I am
more prone, you know I'm moreprone to be oppositional You're
from Northern Ireland, yeah, Iplay my national genetic
heritage, yeah than to be, youknow, consensual all the time.
(23:47):
So I know that about myself andwhilst I always want to be
faithful where standing firm isrequired, I also know that for
me, sometimes I'm more likely togo into that oppositional mode
when really what I should do isbe quiet, listen to other people
(24:08):
and realise that they're rightand I've got something to learn
from them.
And in this situation, what Ineed to do is to be quiet and
submit, or to thank someone forcorrection, or to realise, yeah,
I think we are going inslightly the wrong direction.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Let's talk about the sin of Christian leaders and
some of the disqualifying sin ofChristian leaders and you've
said that, while individualcircumstances have been
different, they all have this incommon the individual
overlooked, ignored or excusedthemselves from living for Jesus
in one or more key areas of theChristian life as described
(24:48):
plainly in the Bible.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I think, just reflecting a little bit on some
of this kind of spectacularfailures in the evangelical
world across the world, whetherthe Mars Hill stuff or others,
and even just again seeing someof my peers trying to reflect,
(25:12):
was there anything to learn?
What do I need to take to heart?
And I do think there is acommon thread in many of the
situations which made I thinkmany of us ask how could they
keep behaving in the way inwhich they did for so long?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Excusing clearly sinful behavior for a long time.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yes, Well, even you know, when you think of the Mars
Hill thing, that's highlydocumented.
I mean, you know Mark Driscolltreated people appallingly for a
very long time.
Yeah.
And I'm not, you know.
Know, obviously there werepeople who tried to try to speak
into that, but, but the realitywas people were effectively
saying, but look at how fruitfulhe's been.
(25:57):
And I think he himself, youknow, would have said at points,
look at how big my church is,yeah, but I think, I think we
can all do that, know, and itactually comes back to the
imposter syndrome that oftenwhen we feel there's some
weakness in our life, in ourministry, what we tend to do is
focus on the strength, and Ithink that is a long-term recipe
(26:19):
for disaster and what it can dois it leads us to live a double
life, but it points it also.
It also leads us as the churchor as peers, to excuse ungodly
behavior in the lives of, ofleaders by saying but they are
(26:40):
immensely fruitful, or look athow able they are.
Or, you know, and I'm notsaying this to kind of start a
witch hunt, but I think togetherwe do actually need to to look
for integrity and evenchrist-likeness.
And I think you know I've been,I think I'm persuaded that in
our circles, how do we, how dowe evaluate each other?
(27:03):
You know, how do we allocaterespect?
And often it's on the basis ofministry effectiveness, not
necessarily godliness.
When I say faithfulness, Idon't mean opposed to
fruitfulness, but people whoquite clearly are living humbly
(27:25):
and authentically for the LordJesus and seeking to be godly in
everything they do and seekingto be effective ministers.
I think we're prone to seeingthe particularly gifted people
and at points then saying butthey are massively gifted,
they're massively fruitful.
Yeah, they don't treat peoplevery well, but you know, look at
(27:52):
what God is doing through them.
And I think we have a defectiveway of seeing what God asks of
us, what God wants for hischurch, when we do that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Now not thinking, if you like, about the superstar
like Driscoll but, the averagepastor that has been trained at
your place?
Do you know, yes, yeah, andthey're now 20 years out, but
they've got a secret sin.
Yeah, what do you want to sayto that guy who might be
listening now?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Oh, come into the light.
I mean this is we're called toa life of repentance and faith.
And you know it's funny.
I was looking at Luther's 95Theses the other day.
You know, the first one is youknow, the whole life to which
we're called is a life ofrepentance.
We all have things that we needto repent of and collapse onto
(28:48):
Jesus again.
And you know, whether we'repastors or not, or leaders or
not, we fall foul of the greatlie that you're better to hide
that stuff, to suppress it.
You know, to live with theguilt rather than bring it into
the light, and no forgivenessand cleansing and restoration
(29:10):
and re-energization.
So you know, I think that'swhere we just have to be.
I think we could be much betterat encouraging each other to
live lives of repentance andfaith together.
That that's the norm, thatalmost having to repent it's
just the normal Christian life,rather than this enormous burden
(29:32):
of shame that leaders shouldn'thave to repent.
They really should.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So you want the conversation to change?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, I think I don't want to overstate it.
I think, as I said, the greatstrength is that we have been
talking a lot about how do weget the gospel out effectively.
But I do think we've kind ofassumed, you know that the
character piece of, you knowcharacter, competency, you know
(30:02):
convictions, I just think thecharacter thing we all want to
see people grow in Christ-likecharacter.
But I think for those of us whoare kind of in ministry, I
think we've often assumed thatpiece because we've gone, it's
the competency that I'm really.
I'm feeling a lack ofcompetency here.
(30:22):
So I will work really hard togrow in my competency and we
need to, but we actually need tocontinually grow in christ-like
character as well and and so toslightly change the
conversation.
But you know, as you know, Imean, in a way there's there's
nothing new under the sun.
(30:43):
You know that probably ourgeneration, you know, the
generation before us, wereprobably, you know, strong in
character and godliness, notalways, not always so great on
competence, and so theconversation changes a bit and
our generation comes and youknow, along with those behind us
(31:03):
, we've said no, we need to, weneed to do this better, which is
true.
And we need to think aboutrunning teams, we need to think
about organizing church, we needto think about effective
evangelism I just want to sayyes and we also need to think
about Christlikeness for alifetime, for the long haul.
(31:26):
And I think often, you know,we've had some very kind of
godly leaders all of us, youknow like, speaking into our
lives and going ahead of us.
I think every generation tendsto assume some things, but the
problem is they assume them,maybe they are godly, but they
don't necessarily pass on thatto the next generation.
(31:47):
They say this needs to change,but then our generation comes
along and we have a completelydifferent set of strengths and
weaknesses, you know, and issues, and I just suspect that
christ-likeness is one of thethings that tends to have been
assumed and, as a result, endsup being a bit neglected, and we
need to take hold of it again,without letting go of the
(32:12):
competent stuff that we've we'vespent so much time thinking
about thanks so much for comingin.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Thanks for having me.
As always, dominic gary millerhas been my guest on the
pastor's heart.
His new book is out both andministry Living and Leading Like
Jesus.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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