What change would a leader and church need to make for a congregation, denomination or movement to grow by five percent annual conversion growth.
The Gospel Coalition pulled together a mini summit of evangelical movement leaders from across Australia in June.
That gathering set an aspirational goal of doubling the number of evangelicals over twenty years.
They said a key way to do it is by pursuing a target of seeing five percent of the average attendance saved each year.
David Jensen leads the Evangelism part of the Department of Evangelism and New Churches in the Sydney Anglican Church.
Chris Braga is senior pastor of Grace West Church at Glenmore Park in Western Sydney.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
What about the 5% number?
Setting a 5% conversion target?
How might that work?
Dave Jensen and Chris Braga areour guests it's the Pastor's
Heart and Dominic Steele.
The Gospel Coalition Australia,a few weeks ago pulled together
a mini-summit of evangelicalmovement leaders from across
Australia.
That gathering set anaspirational goal of doubling
(00:32):
the number of evangelicals inAustralia over 20 years.
But key was that they said away to do it was by pursuing a
5% annual conversion growthtarget.
And here's how Rory Shiner andAndrew Hurd explain this on the
Pastor's Art.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Doubling is simultaneously imaginable.
I think anyone could look atthe ministry they're currently
involved in and think what wouldthis look like if it was twice
as many people involved?
And you can imagine that.
But then I think the thing thatgot me and maybe got a number
of us is I thought that's enoughof a change that I would need
(01:11):
to change and we would need tochange so close enough to be
encouraging.
And you know, if someone says,oh, wouldn't it be great if this
was, you know, 10x or whatever,I think that would be great and
it's almost unimaginable.
But twice as you know, to seethings double, grow twice as
much, is simultaneouslyimaginable.
You know, one would thinkachievable, but not achievable
(01:36):
by a situation normal, steady asshe goes.
I think there's a thing therethat puts the right amount of
fire to your feet to think okay,I would need to think
differently about some of whatwe're currently doing and we're
talking 5% conversion growth ayear.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Really, yes, that's right.
So probably a bit less.
Actually.
That's Rory Shiner and AndrewHeard.
Now today, on the Pastor'sHeart, we're asking what would
each congregation need to do fora denomination, for a movement
to grow by 5% annual conversionrate?
Dave Jensen is our guest.
He leads the evangelism part ofthe Department of Evangelism
(02:13):
and New Churches in the SydneyAnglican Church and Chris Braga
is with us from Grace WestChurch at Glenmore Park, just
near Penrith in Western Sydney.
Dave, let's go first to yourpastor's heart and seeing the
lost saved and as you listen toRory Shiner and Andrew Hurd, it
is exciting to hear but alsodaunting.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I think it's a wonderful opportunity for us to,
before we do anything else,realise that at the very heart
of what we're talking about iseternal life.
It is something of such weightand measure that the very
prospect of our being involvedin God's plan for humanity in
this way should always strike us.
But I also want to say thereason I love this conversation
(02:59):
is that any opportunity we haveto consider the gravity of what
we're discussing here, thatpeople are facing an eternity, a
crisis, eternity, and thatunder God and through his
sovereign power, we may beinvolved in seeing people
rescued.
I think my hope and my prayer,for myself and for others, is
that to be gripped by that isthe fuel that should drive us
(03:21):
forward and if we fall short ofit, so what we had a crack at it
and we're not going to go toglory wandering, you know.
So, yeah, that we give a damnabout the damned that's the line
I use and this sort of thing.
You know it reeks of that thatwe care what happens to the lost
.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now just let's explore the word daunting for a
minute, because I mean, I'mimagining there are people going
to be watching, listening to usnow when we say 5% conversion
growth target based onattendance at our church.
They're just going to be going.
We haven't seen anyoneconverted for five years.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, I think the most helpful way to think about
this number is to realise it isactually palatable.
But the most helpful thing todo is to apply it into your
congregation.
I'll use an example of I'veworked at churches of all sizes
and I remember having thisnumber several years ago at a
(04:17):
church overseas and thinking ohmy goodness, 5%.
There hasn't been a conversionhere for years.
But then I realised, as Iapplied that percentage just to
the adults, I was talking aboutfive conversions.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Okay, so tell us about the size.
Let's make it real concrete.
How many people in the churchat the time?
Well, there was 100 adultsthere or thereabouts, and so you
wanted to see five converts.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I wanted to see five conversions that year.
Now I was beginning theconversation in January with
myself and thinking, okay,that's not beyond us to get to
five Now and when we did thatand that was very manageable.
But I've also worked at muchbigger churches where the 5% has
been huge.
So I've worked at EV Church.
(04:58):
In fact, my first ever job asan evangelism minister was at
MBM in Western Sydney and Iremember my first day I was the
mission pastor and Ray Galeasaid to me Dave, we're aiming
for 5%.
That's 52 adults.
And I said that's one a week.
And he's like, what are youwaiting for?
And I was so overwhelmed.
But after a while I realised Idon't know, this is manageable
(05:21):
If I make it a solid number andit's under God's sovereignty.
I realized I don't know, thisis manageable if I just if I
make it a solid number and it'sunder God's sovereignty, but I
make it a solid number and Ihave chunks of it, I don't have
to.
And if I don't reach 52, if Ijust actually try and aim for
half of that and then build upto that number and they're under
God.
And that year we were able tohit it.
But over other times I've sortof gone right.
(05:42):
5%, how do I get there if I'mat zero?
Well, I'll go for 2.5 the firstyear and then build to 5% the
next year, but to have it as anoutcome I'm seeking to pursue,
I've never felt proud or butactually felt in a way, hey,
it's stretch, but I can grab itunder God.
So I think it is a number thatit might feel daunting, the
(06:03):
percentage part of it, but whenyou break it down and just use
it for adults, that's what Ilike we could talk about that.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, we're going to have an adult discussion.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I think it is palatable and doable.
Yeah, it's absolutelymanageable.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, well, I wanted to bring you in here, chris
Braga, because Dave came alongand did a presentation at your
staff team.
That was kind of game-changingfor your team.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah yeah, three years ago Three years ago Dave
came and visited us as a staffteam.
We'd kind of put together someplans for mission and Dave
really encouraged us to thinkvery deliberately about where
people are going to hear themessage of Jesus you know what's
the environment where they'regoing to meet other people, meet
other Christians, open theBible, be able to answer their
(06:48):
questions and have that time inthe Word and really clear.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So the evangelistic course, the time in the Word.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Time in the Word.
Thinking about it, we called itat the time the TEC, the
Trusted Evangelistic Course.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So we're an acronym-free program.
We changed it after that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
So we didn't have a name for it, but we called it
that because we weren't.
Primarily this was Dave'sadvice was we're not trying to
persuade non-Christians andinvite them to this course.
So trusted is your big word.
That is, it's trusted withinour congregation as the place
where you can bring someonealong and have them hear about
(07:29):
Jesus, and so it's buildingconfidence with our congregation
with our church members.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Essentially, I mean, that's one of the reasons why
introducing God has worked wellhere, because so many people
here have been saved by doingthat course.
Yeah, Therefore they trust it.
Therefore, I'm prepared,they're prepared, to bring
people to it.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, and so I think that over the last when we
started, you know, trust getsbuilt slowly and so it's taking
time to build momentum and alsoexplain why we don't do all the
things we might have done in thepast.
So lots of events, lots ofother things and our diary
really revolving around thestart date of those courses and
(08:08):
even Dave's encouragement to say, chris, don't just do something
and see who wants to do thecourse, but put the date in the
diary.
And we've even been in asituation where we don't know
anyone signed up and we've beenliterally standing in the car
park, you know, praying thatpeople would come and they have,
because people know we're goingto do it, they know there's
going to be somewhere to hearabout Jesus.
The last course, I think, wehad four people signed up and
then when it kicked off, therewas 16.
(08:31):
So people brought their friendsbecause we know we're going to
run it, we're not going tocancel and even if there's one
person there, we'll have themrun it.
So if he has been running acourse four times a year, that
kind of timeframe and sometimesthey've succeeded, sometimes
because we've got a second siteand so sometimes we haven't been
able to pull it off at thesecond site.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you're running in the two sites.
Your aspiration is to run it onthe big site four times a year
and on the small site Once ortwice.
Okay, Now, what's happenedunder God in terms of I mean,
Dave just talked aboutpercentage change from no one
had been converted to what'shappened at your place?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Look, I think that under God is.
I love reporting and justsharing people becoming
Christians.
Two years ago, I shared thatsix people, six adults, had been
converted and that's great news.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And last year.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I was able to share that 24 adults had become
Christian.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Okay, now let's do that in terms of percentages.
What's that look like?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, adult attendance is about 350 each
week and the total number ofadults in our community is about
500.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Okay, but if average Sunday attendance.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Adults, yeah, adults.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if we go 24 divided by 350,that gives us a 6.8% conversion
rate.
Well, that's good, David Jensen.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, that's pretty good.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Praise God for that.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Praise God.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Can I say one of the key things I've been struck by
at Glenmore Park is the keywords about whatever you're
doing in evangelism.
So if we can go with, hey,you're going to have an
intentional plan.
Let's use a course as anexample, which I think is a good
example.
To use a course as an example,which I think is a good example,
(10:28):
biblical, repeatable, reliable,dependable and scalable, and
it's the opposite of a quick fix.
But that doesn't so.
It requires patience.
It takes several years to buildsocial capital with your
congregation, because thedemographic that will be most
often converted in Australiathey've actually got something
in common that 95% of them or soknow a Christian, and so the
(10:50):
Christian is the person whobrings them to the course, and
that's been the case atGreenwood Park hasn't it?
People bring in people.
Some people do just turn up.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I mean that's interesting.
I think our experience hasactually been.
We've probably seen more people, um, I mean, we've been running
course once a term, uh, for along, long time.
We've probably seen more peoplecome because of the website,
because of the social media,that kind of thing.
(11:18):
Uh, I kind of call it corporatevillage, you know, rather than
the individual attention.
And and that really worried mebecause I thought, oh, it looks
like evangelism is going wellhere, but actually are our
people hungry enough, you know?
And so we then changed it.
We said, look, we want to havea goal of bringing 100 to a
(11:42):
gospel moment this year, so thatwe set the goal of our members
bringing 100.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Nothing wrong with doing both, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, because we were unhappy with what was going on?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, do both.
Is that a new phenomenon,though?
The people coming in unbroughtand uninvited?
Has that been a new?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
one.
I actually think.
Well, I'd probably say it wasmore five years ago than now.
I think we're getting better.
That change, that bringing 100,was a five-year-ago kind of
initiative.
Yes, and so now our membershave got higher ownership.
Yes, and so I think it'sactually switched back.
Because there is undoubtedly wehope I shouldn't say
(12:22):
undoubtedly- but then we're in apretty transient part of the
city.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
You are in a very transient part of Sydney, yeah,
but also it looks as if theremay be, under God, a cultural
moment taking place where peopleare, in fact, covid.
Actually, right now there's amoment Right at this moment.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And COVID didn't cause it, but COVID displayed it
the emptiness, the desire formeaning, the deep, deep desire
for community, for knowledge andin the midst of all sorts of
social disorder, as we've talkedabout here on the podcast on
Pastors Heart before that, ifour churches are ready to
(12:58):
evangelise clearly, effectively,engagingly to the people who
are brought and the people whojust rock up, that's the
strategy.
You know that, in essence, thatwe're ready and I've got to say
in my experience, the churchesthat see the most conversions
they're not the ones necessarilywith the best signage or the
best website that can often playa part they're the ones who've
(13:19):
got the clearest, most simpleplan of what to do to
non-Christians withnon-Christians when they arrive.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So let's just take a little digression for a moment,
because I was in a prayermeeting with a group of
ministers yesterday and everyone of us said it feels like
there's something going on inthe softening of the ground at
the moment.
That's a little bit unexpected.
We've talked about this onbefore, on the pastor's heart
before, but compared to what yousaid to us, I don't know when
it was four or five months agowhat's your read if anything's
(13:49):
changed in the last five months?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I think we are.
It's a funny one because Ithink we may be.
I've the great privilege ofpreaching around the place a lot
.
And I've seen a lot and a lotof people converted young adult,
young adult men in particularin the last couple of years at
these sort of guest events,preaching evangelistic rally
(14:12):
type events than I ever havebefore.
It's worth identifying thatthose events, the ones that I've
seen the most fruit, are oftenat churches who have got a great
evangelistic program alreadyhappening and this is sort of
the culmination of that there'sriding on that program.
But here's what I think ispotentially going on.
I think it's going to take timefor us to identify whether this
is real or not, but theperception that it is real is
(14:36):
giving us gospel optimism, whichwe should always have.
I'm watching a tone changeamongst my peers and the tone
change has meant that we nolonger are going.
Oh, everybody hates us, sowe're not going to go out.
It is like, well, everybodyhates us, but hey, maybe
everybody kind of likes us aswell.
And there's a moment and I'lluse a small illustration, if I
may my sons play rugby league,god's favourite sport and their
(15:02):
favourite players all pray aftera game because they're Pacifica
, they're Tongan and Samoan, andyou live in Penrith.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And so when I was growing up, the Christians were
Jason Stevens, brad Thorne, acouple of and Dave Simmons great
guys.
But now there's a Christiansubculture, so that my children
when they play they draw a crosson their wristband and they
write Jesus.
There's zero embarrassment andthat's a little confidence piece
because they've seen otherpeople do it.
Now that's not to say that'sconversion, that's revival, but
(15:32):
here's what it is.
It's different to what it was10 years ago or 20 years ago.
I would have been embarrassedto do that as a kid.
10 years ago or 20 years ago, Iwould have been embarrassed to
do that as a kid.
And I think there has been achange in that and I think
there's an emboldening that theoptimism causes Christians to
feel like I can do this and youknow what, even if there wasn't
a moment, we should always feelthat way.
So let's make hay while the sunshines.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Dave, we work very hard on building that kind of
confidence in the gospel andhelping people recognise that
there might be fears butactually take that step anyway.
Like you know, we know thegospel is the power of God for
the salvation of the people youbring you to.
So have that confidence inJesus to be able to have those
conversations and bring peoplealong Chris.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
what impact did it have on you that discussion
about setting a target atGlenmore Park?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I think that our On your team, yeah.
Look it's, the big thing for uswas actually to shift to having
a priority of growth, to be verydeliberate about growth and to
invest into mission, and thenumbers are just kind of falling
out for us in one sense.
(16:41):
In that sense, I know somepeople are really big on numbers
, but I always want the actionand not necessarily a commitment
to a number.
So you know, if there'sconversations about numbers, I
love that.
I always think you know whatwould it look like for our
church to be ten times the size,double the size, or you know,
for lots more people to becomeChristians, a lot more churches.
(17:02):
So 5% is kind of like.
If that captures people'simagination and enables them to
think differently about theirministry and think about the
outsider more, because oftenwe're thinking about the insider
, then that's great.
That's really a motivatingpiece.
In our church we use thevocabulary of more and more
people transformed by grace, sowe're just thinking about more
people all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Now, david, let's talk.
20 years ago your dad, when hewas Archbishop they set a target
goal of 10% of Sydney and inthis discussion, talking 5% of
average adult attendance, peopleare going to be talking oh, 5
is half of 10, and that kind ofthing.
(17:44):
How do you respond to thosekind of comments?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, well, on one level it's worth identifying
that they're completelydifferent targets.
So the 10% target, which Ithink was terrific to have, any
number that drives our eyes outto the fields outside of the
barns, I think it's a wonderfulthing to do, but that was a
target for 10% of the city ofSydney, which just felt
overwhelming.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Which I'm sure, but was only ever a stepping stone
to reaching the rest.
Yeah, it was big.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And so 10% of the city now that's a particular
number.
Now, that is not what this is.
This and so 10% of the city nowthat's a particular number.
Now, that is not what this is.
This is 5%.
Now where's the 5% measuredagainst?
And this is an important thingto articulate?
You've hit on it already thisis your weekly average
attendance across a year.
What is 5% of that number?
And that's the target?
(18:35):
Now, that's not 5% of the city,that's not 5% of your suburb,
that's 5% of the current churchattendance.
So if your church is 40, that'stwo people a year, you know.
And so I want to say there'spros and cons to all this type
of thing.
Sinful hearts can take us anynumber of places when we're
thinking of targets and whatnot,but I enjoy both of them, but
(18:59):
they're very different things.
I think the 10% target was fora diocese and a movement of
evangelicals in Sydney andbeyond to go right.
Let's really aim high.
This is also aiming high, butit's actually almost a subset of
the big one.
To go hey, let's break that down.
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
It feels more like that.
Well, a smart girl, specific,measurable, achievable,
realistic, time-based, all thosekind of things.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yes, and it's also very helpful because it's
measured against yourcongregation, it's tangible, so
you're able to go.
Okay, well, that's where we are.
When I worked at MBM with RayGilear, ray would always say um,
numbers are people, numbers arenamed, they have names and
(19:44):
people matter to god.
And one of those helpful thingswe did at nbm was we had a
spreadsheet of people who becomeor who professed faith, and
that wasn't.
We didn't publish that anywhere.
That wasn't for us to wave andlook at us.
In fact, at the time I remembervisitors to our city would
often say, oh, the era ofevangelism has gone, and I'd go.
(20:05):
Well, nbm had 70 adultconversions last year.
I've got their names, but thereason we had their names was so
that we could track them andmake sure that they were still
in a Bible study and follow themup.
And so numbers are one thing,but they're people.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Names is the key thing.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, they're names, and numbers have names, they're
people and it's not as if I can.
Just, you know, I can't thinkof one church I've had anything
to do with who is sopragmatically driven that it's
just like, oh, someone put ahand up.
They're actually stretching,but they put the hand up
Christian that's not how itworks here.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
What about as you've gone, because you've been doing
lots of consulting withministers?
We've just heard the GlenmorePark story.
But what are some of the otherstories of churches across the
places you've consulted andthey've thought, ah, because
I've got to, I mean we'll put agraph up from the REACH
Australia where they've done aconsultation and their
(21:00):
consultation got a number ofprior to the consultation, maybe
1.54% conversion rate,something like that and then a
massive change when they'vestarted to implement that kind
of intentional strategy thatyou've talked about with the
trusted evangelistic course andthat kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, I would just offer that, generally speaking,
a consult either with myself orwith Reach or anything like this
is not a silver bullet tofixing things.
It requires a clear-eyed leaderwho's willing to make changes
and to listen to, but, more thananything, to understand reality
and to go hey, what's the layof the land at the moment and
(21:43):
where do we want to get to andhow are we going to get there?
And it's been a great privilege.
One of the things that I get tosee is, yeah, a lot of churches
in different contexts acrossthe city, but not just Sydney.
By the way, I coach guys aroundthe world and in Australia and
so a really exciting story is alocal inner city close to the
city church here in Sydney whohave had a fine gospel pulpit
(22:10):
ministry for many, many years,but never a real pathway for
non-Christians who get convertedto enter into church easily.
So they'd often lose people andhave an identical story to
Chris, and one of the key thingswas that it was the rector, the
senior pastor, who was speakingat the course in this case and
just was able to really pour hisconfidence into it, which was
(22:30):
infectious around the place.
And another one is in thewestern suburbs.
They're in a very lowersocioeconomic area Now.
Traditionally speaking, thoseare actually very easy places to
run courses and get people tocome to things.
But they've had a very, verylong-term approach of going
right.
We want to not just get peopleto five weeks, we want to make
(22:52):
sure they plug into a Biblestudy afterwards and they're
finishing up their second yearof running things and they've
gone from really one or two ayear for probably 20 years to
they had seven last year, 14this year I got a text message
this morning in the easternsuburbs so far this year, seven
and Sutherland Shire.
(23:14):
I mean it's all over the placeactually.
And the thing is what'sfascinating is that it's not a
big personality at play oranything.
It's really just slowed down,consistent, planned, thoughtful
prioritization and it's.
It's difficult because it'salways prioritizing invisible
people over the visible andthat's difficult, but it it does
(23:34):
work because the saints, wehave the holy spirit within us.
We want to evangelize, we wantto bring people in.
So, yeah, it's happening.
People become Christians inAustralia every single day and
young people become Christiansevery single day.
It's astonishing.
So yeah lots to be encouraged by.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
One of my mates was at a meeting with a number of
senior ministers the other dayand they were discussing the
feasibility of this 5% targetand he said the big discussion
was do we count kids and youthas well as adults?
And they said if we includekids and youth, we're killing it
.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But if we don't, include kids and youth we're
getting nowhere near it andwhat's your?
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Well, I offer we count youth and adults
separately so that we have twospreadsheets, because we want to
rejoice over the profession offaith in youth.
80%, so we're told you know,profess faith under the age of
18.
However, that is indicative.
What do you make of that?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Well.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Dave, I think that number is about 50% of that
number are our children.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Just not us.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
But the children of Christian people.
About half our churches arefilled with those people.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
But you have eight children, I have six, so it is
us as well.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So we're seeing conversions in that younger age
group About 50-50 in one sense.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
So it's kind of underage 18.
There's another way of skewingit, which is to say it's not
that it's saying 80% of ourpopulation are getting converted
under the age of 18.
It's saying 80% of ourChristians, which actually is
saying we're just is it possible?
We're just really bad atevangelism to adults.
You know that we see, but wehaven't put enough effort into
it, and that's what I think.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It's a different game , thinking about what does it
look like to take the message ofJesus to young people as adults
, and I think that historicallywe've been doing fairly well in
that teenage space.
But the idea of actuallyfocusing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We're just noting that you are the chair of the
former chair of Anglican YouthWorks and we love young people
becoming Christians.
I was spoken to a youth councilrecently.
The 80% number is actually asign that we're failing in adult
evangelism.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Yeah, so we need to be thinking about everyone, and
there are a lot of people whoare over the age of 18.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
How do you count?
I mean, I was in a discussionwith somebody the last 24 hours
and I showed them essentially myequivalent to your spreadsheet,
my list of names.
How do you qualify to get onthat list?
What I mean is it's not justputting up a hand or ticking a
(26:14):
box at a card, it's when do youwrite somebody down on the list
of?
We saw them saved this year atGlenmore Park.
Yes, I mean Phil Colgan, I wastalking to him last week and he
kind of joked that at his churchhe almost had to go to Bible
college before he was preparedto write you down on the list.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Well, I mean, the book you want to be in is the
Lamb's Book of Life.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, that's the one, so we're trying to.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
We want to find expression of faith in someone,
and really it's.
We're thinking about someonethat we now know trusts Jesus.
Their life is turned around,repentance and faith.
They're embedded into the lifeof the church.
So it's not someone who camealong to something and is left
again, but really someone who'sgrounded in the faith and you're
actually seeing the fruit ofthe gospel in their life.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I completely agree.
I think there's two ways ofdoing this that I've seen as
effective together.
The first one is a professionof faith, using that language,
not conversion, because we don'tknow they're converted, but we
want to rejoice and trust in theprofession if it's from what we
can tell to be a genuineprofession.
So that's why courses andthings are helpful, because you
(27:19):
get to know the people, becauseyou've been talking to them for
six, eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And when they actually say I believe in him as
my Lord and my Savior, and ifthey do a feedback form.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
You do evangelism explosion diagnostic question or
something like this how do youget to heaven?
And if they answer that in away and you're like, wow, they
seem to have got this andthey're, and we get to the
language of conversion, I thinkit's most helpful at that point
(27:46):
to say you've got to the pointwhere you've handed them over
from the evangelism world to theBible study maturity type world
, and that will take a year insome frameworks.
So that's why having afollow-up Bible study is so
important.
So if someone makes aprofession, we rejoice, but if
(28:07):
they drop off eight weeks later,what do you do to that name?
Well, you take it off the list.
They're no longer professingfaith and that protects you from
doubling numbers, becauseotherwise, I mean, I would have
been counted eight times.
I made eight professions offaith.
And it's the same that you'vegot records and they're not
using the records in order toimpress or in order to pretend,
(28:30):
but in order to track people andsee where they're at.
But I think, yeah, thatlanguage of profession is a
helpful one and we rejoice,trusting that he who calls upon
the name of the Lord will besaved.
But we are cautious.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, I also find that just having that document
and we use a Google documentsuper helpful, because it stops
me from counting them inNovember last year and March
this year.
Otherwise, if I just had anumber, I'd be tempted to do
that.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I can see how evangelism has so often led to
both liberalism and accusationsof sneaky lies, because, oh, the
temptation in all of us toattach ourselves to these sort
of things and think it reflectsus well.
So we must be cutthroat ongenuine evangelism and genuine
(29:20):
conversion, and genuine whilstat the same point being
optimistic and rejoicing, andjust persistent, you know, and
able to keep going through it,dave.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
There's an irony in that in one sense, because when
you think about mission, youoften think about yourself or
yourself as a pastor, like youknow.
Am I doing a good enough job?
Am I doing this well?
Am I a failure?
When actually mission's alwaysabout the other person, it's
kind of like I don't care aboutmyself, I'm actually concerned
about them, their salvation, andso taking our eyes off self and
(29:51):
just thinking about the otherperson and even performance as a
minister, you think.
You know, there are years wherethis hasn't been the case at
our church and it's kind of likewe just faithfully keep going,
yes, but just really have oureye on the other person and not
us.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
And the term that's used when I worked at EV the
term I love it is a mission.
Work is people work it's aboutthe people and you can't do it
if you don't know them.
And then you weep when Iremember sitting there with one
of the other pastors weeping asone of the guys left as he made
a profession and six weeks downthe track he was gone and it was
just devastating.
(30:27):
But also I walked away goingman, we've known that guy for
two months and we're cryingabout him leaving.
Jesus and it's not over, butthat's the kind of you need
someone in there who's reallygot eyes on these people.
They're people, they'reprecious people.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, this is one of the things that for for our
church.
We invest heavily in terms ofthe staff.
So Steve Gooch is on our staffteam.
He's responsible for runningour evangelistic course and the
mission element of our churchlife and that's actually a big
sacrifice in the sense of he'sreally good at it.
He loves people.
(31:05):
They know that he'll walk overhot coals for someone, so they
feel deeply loved.
He explains the gospel clearly,but also in terms of our staff
team, it means it's asignificant proportion of our
budget in effect has beendedicated to mission, when it
could be dedicated to a wholelot of other things that made
our life easier, and so it's abig cost.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Last question, David the small church, the church of
150 and the church of 500,what's going to be the hard
thing for each of thosedifferent sizes about adopting
that 5% target?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think the hard thing is always the same, which
is the self-reflective nature ofthe entire endeavour.
In essence, that to begin itall, it will require a mirror on
the current state of play andaddressing if we're not hitting
that at the moment, we're goingto have to change something in
(32:10):
order to hit that.
And my take has been it's notabout finding a plan, that's
quite simple.
Executing the plan.
That's a bit trickier, but it'sthat first step of being able
to go oh well, if we haven'tbeen hitting it, that's not
great, but it's not living andwallowing in it and that's what
I want to.
I've always loved the bookGlenmore Park and many others.
It's actually saying, okay, sothat's happened.
(32:30):
Well, what do we learn fromthat and how do we move on?
And I think that, small, big orlarge, once that happens and
you can purse through that, thenyou're free to be able to go
okay, well, what can we change?
What can we do slightlydifferently, differently?
But if you're unwilling toacknowledge that it hasn't been
happening and actually that'snot great, it's going to be very
(32:51):
, very difficult to make ithappen.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Gentlemen.
David Jensen has been my guest.
He leads the evangelism part ofthe Department of Evangelism
and New Churches in the SydneyAnglican Church, and also Chris
Braga with us.
Senior Pastor of Grace WestChurch at Glenmore Park, to the
west of Sydney.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
What about the 5% number?
Setting a 5% conversion target?
How might that work?
Dave Jensen and Chris Braga areour guests it's the Pastor's
Heart and Dominic Steele.
The Gospel Coalition Australia,a few weeks ago pulled together
a mini-summit of evangelicalmovement leaders from across
Australia.
That gathering set anaspirational goal of doubling
(00:32):
the number of evangelicals inAustralia over 20 years.
But key was that they said away to do it was by pursuing a
5% annual conversion growthtarget.
And here's how Rory Shiner andAndrew Hurd explain this on the
Pastor's Art.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Doubling is simultaneously imaginable.
I think anyone could look atthe ministry they're currently
involved in and think what wouldthis look like if it was twice
as many people involved?
And you can imagine that.
But then I think the thing thatgot me and maybe got a number
of us is I thought that's enoughof a change that I would need
(01:11):
to change and we would need tochange so close enough to be
encouraging.
And you know, if someone says,oh, wouldn't it be great if this
was, you know, 10x or whatever,I think that would be great and
it's almost unimaginable.
But twice as you know, to seethings double, grow twice as
much, is simultaneouslyimaginable.
You know, one would thinkachievable, but not achievable
(01:36):
by a situation normal, steady asshe goes.
I think there's a thing therethat puts the right amount of
fire to your feet to think okay,I would need to think
differently about some of whatwe're currently doing and we're
talking 5% conversion growth ayear.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Really, yes, that's right.
So probably a bit less.
Actually.
That's Rory Shiner and AndrewHeard.
Now today, on the Pastor'sHeart, we're asking what would
each congregation need to do fora denomination, for a movement
to grow by 5% annual conversionrate?
Dave Jensen is our guest.
He leads the evangelism part ofthe Department of Evangelism
(02:13):
and New Churches in the SydneyAnglican Church and Chris Braga
is with us from Grace WestChurch at Glenmore Park, just
near Penrith in Western Sydney.
Dave, let's go first to yourpastor's heart and seeing the
lost saved and as you listen toRory Shiner and Andrew Hurd, it
is exciting to hear but alsodaunting.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I think it's a wonderful opportunity for us to,
before we do anything else,realise that at the very heart
of what we're talking about iseternal life.
It is something of such weightand measure that the very
prospect of our being involvedin God's plan for humanity in
this way should always strike us.
But I also want to say thereason I love this conversation
(02:59):
is that any opportunity we haveto consider the gravity of what
we're discussing here, thatpeople are facing an eternity, a
crisis, eternity, and thatunder God and through his
sovereign power, we may beinvolved in seeing people
rescued.
I think my hope and my prayer,for myself and for others, is
that to be gripped by that isthe fuel that should drive us
(03:21):
forward and if we fall short ofit, so what we had a crack at it
and we're not going to go toglory wandering, you know.
So, yeah, that we give a damnabout the damned that's the line
I use and this sort of thing.
You know it reeks of that thatwe care what happens to the lost
.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now just let's explore the word daunting for a
minute, because I mean, I'mimagining there are people going
to be watching, listening to usnow when we say 5% conversion
growth target based onattendance at our church.
They're just going to be going.
We haven't seen anyoneconverted for five years.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, I think the most helpful way to think about
this number is to realise it isactually palatable.
But the most helpful thing todo is to apply it into your
congregation.
I'll use an example of I'veworked at churches of all sizes
and I remember having thisnumber several years ago at a
(04:17):
church overseas and thinking ohmy goodness, 5%.
There hasn't been a conversionhere for years.
But then I realised, as Iapplied that percentage just to
the adults, I was talking aboutfive conversions.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Okay, so tell us about the size.
Let's make it real concrete.
How many people in the churchat the time?
Well, there was 100 adultsthere or thereabouts, and so you
wanted to see five converts.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I wanted to see five conversions that year.
Now I was beginning theconversation in January with
myself and thinking, okay,that's not beyond us to get to
five Now and when we did thatand that was very manageable.
But I've also worked at muchbigger churches where the 5% has
been huge.
So I've worked at EV Church.
(04:58):
In fact, my first ever job asan evangelism minister was at
MBM in Western Sydney and Iremember my first day I was the
mission pastor and Ray Galeasaid to me Dave, we're aiming
for 5%.
That's 52 adults.
And I said that's one a week.
And he's like, what are youwaiting for?
And I was so overwhelmed.
But after a while I realised Idon't know, this is manageable
(05:21):
If I make it a solid number andit's under God's sovereignty.
I realized I don't know, thisis manageable if I just if I
make it a solid number and it'sunder God's sovereignty, but I
make it a solid number and Ihave chunks of it, I don't have
to.
And if I don't reach 52, if Ijust actually try and aim for
half of that and then build upto that number and they're under
God.
And that year we were able tohit it.
But over other times I've sortof gone right.
(05:42):
5%, how do I get there if I'mat zero?
Well, I'll go for 2.5 the firstyear and then build to 5% the
next year, but to have it as anoutcome I'm seeking to pursue,
I've never felt proud or butactually felt in a way, hey,
it's stretch, but I can grab itunder God.
So I think it is a number thatit might feel daunting, the
(06:03):
percentage part of it, but whenyou break it down and just use
it for adults, that's what Ilike we could talk about that.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, we're going to have an adult discussion.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I think it is palatable and doable.
Yeah, it's absolutelymanageable.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, well, I wanted to bring you in here, chris
Braga, because Dave came alongand did a presentation at your
staff team.
That was kind of game-changingfor your team.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah yeah, three years ago Three years ago Dave
came and visited us as a staffteam.
We'd kind of put together someplans for mission and Dave
really encouraged us to thinkvery deliberately about where
people are going to hear themessage of Jesus you know what's
the environment where they'regoing to meet other people, meet
other Christians, open theBible, be able to answer their
(06:48):
questions and have that time inthe Word and really clear.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So the evangelistic course, the time in the Word.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Time in the Word.
Thinking about it, we called itat the time the TEC, the
Trusted Evangelistic Course.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So we're an acronym-free program.
We changed it after that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
So we didn't have a name for it, but we called it
that because we weren't.
Primarily this was Dave'sadvice was we're not trying to
persuade non-Christians andinvite them to this course.
So trusted is your big word.
That is, it's trusted withinour congregation as the place
where you can bring someonealong and have them hear about
(07:29):
Jesus, and so it's buildingconfidence with our congregation
with our church members.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Essentially, I mean, that's one of the reasons why
introducing God has worked wellhere, because so many people
here have been saved by doingthat course.
Yeah, Therefore they trust it.
Therefore, I'm prepared,they're prepared, to bring
people to it.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, and so I think that over the last when we
started, you know, trust getsbuilt slowly and so it's taking
time to build momentum and alsoexplain why we don't do all the
things we might have done in thepast.
So lots of events, lots ofother things and our diary
really revolving around thestart date of those courses and
(08:08):
even Dave's encouragement to say, chris, don't just do something
and see who wants to do thecourse, but put the date in the
diary.
And we've even been in asituation where we don't know
anyone signed up and we've beenliterally standing in the car
park, you know, praying thatpeople would come and they have,
because people know we're goingto do it, they know there's
going to be somewhere to hearabout Jesus.
The last course, I think, wehad four people signed up and
then when it kicked off, therewas 16.
(08:31):
So people brought their friendsbecause we know we're going to
run it, we're not going tocancel and even if there's one
person there, we'll have themrun it.
So if he has been running acourse four times a year, that
kind of timeframe and sometimesthey've succeeded, sometimes
because we've got a second siteand so sometimes we haven't been
able to pull it off at thesecond site.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you're running in the two sites.
Your aspiration is to run it onthe big site four times a year
and on the small site Once ortwice.
Okay, Now, what's happenedunder God in terms of I mean,
Dave just talked aboutpercentage change from no one
had been converted to what'shappened at your place?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Look, I think that under God is.
I love reporting and justsharing people becoming
Christians.
Two years ago, I shared thatsix people, six adults, had been
converted and that's great news.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And last year.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I was able to share that 24 adults had become
Christian.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Okay, now let's do that in terms of percentages.
What's that look like?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, adult attendance is about 350 each
week and the total number ofadults in our community is about
500.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Okay, but if average Sunday attendance.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Adults, yeah, adults.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if we go 24 divided by 350,that gives us a 6.8% conversion
rate.
Well, that's good, David Jensen.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, that's pretty good.
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Praise God for that.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Praise God.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Can I say one of the key things I've been struck by
at Glenmore Park is the keywords about whatever you're
doing in evangelism.
So if we can go with, hey,you're going to have an
intentional plan.
Let's use a course as anexample, which I think is a good
example.
To use a course as an example,which I think is a good example,
(10:28):
biblical, repeatable, reliable,dependable and scalable, and
it's the opposite of a quick fix.
But that doesn't so.
It requires patience.
It takes several years to buildsocial capital with your
congregation, because thedemographic that will be most
often converted in Australiathey've actually got something
in common that 95% of them or soknow a Christian, and so the
(10:50):
Christian is the person whobrings them to the course, and
that's been the case atGreenwood Park hasn't it?
People bring in people.
Some people do just turn up.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I mean that's interesting.
I think our experience hasactually been.
We've probably seen more people, um, I mean, we've been running
course once a term, uh, for along, long time.
We've probably seen more peoplecome because of the website,
because of the social media,that kind of thing.
(11:18):
Uh, I kind of call it corporatevillage, you know, rather than
the individual attention.
And and that really worried mebecause I thought, oh, it looks
like evangelism is going wellhere, but actually are our
people hungry enough, you know?
And so we then changed it.
We said, look, we want to havea goal of bringing 100 to a
(11:42):
gospel moment this year, so thatwe set the goal of our members
bringing 100.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Nothing wrong with doing both, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, because we were unhappy with what was going on?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, do both.
Is that a new phenomenon,though?
The people coming in unbroughtand uninvited?
Has that been a new?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
one.
I actually think.
Well, I'd probably say it wasmore five years ago than now.
I think we're getting better.
That change, that bringing 100,was a five-year-ago kind of
initiative.
Yes, and so now our membershave got higher ownership.
Yes, and so I think it'sactually switched back.
Because there is undoubtedly wehope I shouldn't say
(12:22):
undoubtedly- but then we're in apretty transient part of the
city.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
You are in a very transient part of Sydney, yeah,
but also it looks as if theremay be, under God, a cultural
moment taking place where peopleare, in fact, covid.
Actually, right now there's amoment Right at this moment.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And COVID didn't cause it, but COVID displayed it
the emptiness, the desire formeaning, the deep, deep desire
for community, for knowledge andin the midst of all sorts of
social disorder, as we've talkedabout here on the podcast on
Pastors Heart before that, ifour churches are ready to
(12:58):
evangelise clearly, effectively,engagingly to the people who
are brought and the people whojust rock up, that's the
strategy.
You know that, in essence, thatwe're ready and I've got to say
in my experience, the churchesthat see the most conversions
they're not the ones necessarilywith the best signage or the
best website that can often playa part they're the ones who've
(13:19):
got the clearest, most simpleplan of what to do to
non-Christians withnon-Christians when they arrive.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So let's just take a little digression for a moment,
because I was in a prayermeeting with a group of
ministers yesterday and everyone of us said it feels like
there's something going on inthe softening of the ground at
the moment.
That's a little bit unexpected.
We've talked about this onbefore, on the pastor's heart
before, but compared to what yousaid to us, I don't know when
it was four or five months agowhat's your read if anything's
(13:49):
changed in the last five months?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I think we are.
It's a funny one because Ithink we may be.
I've the great privilege ofpreaching around the place a lot
.
And I've seen a lot and a lotof people converted young adult,
young adult men in particularin the last couple of years at
these sort of guest events,preaching evangelistic rally
(14:12):
type events than I ever havebefore.
It's worth identifying thatthose events, the ones that I've
seen the most fruit, are oftenat churches who have got a great
evangelistic program alreadyhappening and this is sort of
the culmination of that there'sriding on that program.
But here's what I think ispotentially going on.
I think it's going to take timefor us to identify whether this
is real or not, but theperception that it is real is
(14:36):
giving us gospel optimism, whichwe should always have.
I'm watching a tone changeamongst my peers and the tone
change has meant that we nolonger are going.
Oh, everybody hates us, sowe're not going to go out.
It is like, well, everybodyhates us, but hey, maybe
everybody kind of likes us aswell.
And there's a moment and I'lluse a small illustration, if I
may my sons play rugby league,god's favourite sport and their
(15:02):
favourite players all pray aftera game because they're Pacifica
, they're Tongan and Samoan, andyou live in Penrith.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And so when I was growing up, the Christians were
Jason Stevens, brad Thorne, acouple of and Dave Simmons great
guys.
But now there's a Christiansubculture, so that my children
when they play they draw a crosson their wristband and they
write Jesus.
There's zero embarrassment andthat's a little confidence piece
because they've seen otherpeople do it.
Now that's not to say that'sconversion, that's revival, but
(15:32):
here's what it is.
It's different to what it was10 years ago or 20 years ago.
I would have been embarrassedto do that as a kid.
10 years ago or 20 years ago, Iwould have been embarrassed to
do that as a kid.
And I think there has been achange in that and I think
there's an emboldening that theoptimism causes Christians to
feel like I can do this and youknow what, even if there wasn't
a moment, we should always feelthat way.
So let's make hay while the sunshines.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Dave, we work very hard on building that kind of
confidence in the gospel andhelping people recognise that
there might be fears butactually take that step anyway.
Like you know, we know thegospel is the power of God for
the salvation of the people youbring you to.
So have that confidence inJesus to be able to have those
conversations and bring peoplealong Chris.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
what impact did it have on you that discussion
about setting a target atGlenmore Park?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I think that our On your team, yeah.
Look it's, the big thing for uswas actually to shift to having
a priority of growth, to be verydeliberate about growth and to
invest into mission, and thenumbers are just kind of falling
out for us in one sense.
(16:41):
In that sense, I know somepeople are really big on numbers
, but I always want the actionand not necessarily a commitment
to a number.
So you know, if there'sconversations about numbers, I
love that.
I always think you know whatwould it look like for our
church to be ten times the size,double the size, or you know,
for lots more people to becomeChristians, a lot more churches.
(17:02):
So 5% is kind of like.
If that captures people'simagination and enables them to
think differently about theirministry and think about the
outsider more, because oftenwe're thinking about the insider
, then that's great.
That's really a motivatingpiece.
In our church we use thevocabulary of more and more
people transformed by grace, sowe're just thinking about more
people all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Now, david, let's talk.
20 years ago your dad, when hewas Archbishop they set a target
goal of 10% of Sydney and inthis discussion, talking 5% of
average adult attendance, peopleare going to be talking oh, 5
is half of 10, and that kind ofthing.
(17:44):
How do you respond to thosekind of comments?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, well, on one level it's worth identifying
that they're completelydifferent targets.
So the 10% target, which Ithink was terrific to have, any
number that drives our eyes outto the fields outside of the
barns, I think it's a wonderfulthing to do, but that was a
target for 10% of the city ofSydney, which just felt
overwhelming.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Which I'm sure, but was only ever a stepping stone
to reaching the rest.
Yeah, it was big.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And so 10% of the city now that's a particular
number.
Now, that is not what this is.
This and so 10% of the city nowthat's a particular number.
Now, that is not what this is.
This is 5%.
Now where's the 5% measuredagainst?
And this is an important thingto articulate?
You've hit on it already thisis your weekly average
attendance across a year.
What is 5% of that number?
And that's the target?
(18:35):
Now, that's not 5% of the city,that's not 5% of your suburb,
that's 5% of the current churchattendance.
So if your church is 40, that'stwo people a year, you know.
And so I want to say there'spros and cons to all this type
of thing.
Sinful hearts can take us anynumber of places when we're
thinking of targets and whatnot,but I enjoy both of them, but
(18:59):
they're very different things.
I think the 10% target was fora diocese and a movement of
evangelicals in Sydney andbeyond to go right.
Let's really aim high.
This is also aiming high, butit's actually almost a subset of
the big one.
To go hey, let's break that down.
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
It feels more like that.
Well, a smart girl, specific,measurable, achievable,
realistic, time-based, all thosekind of things.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yes, and it's also very helpful because it's
measured against yourcongregation, it's tangible, so
you're able to go.
Okay, well, that's where we are.
When I worked at MBM with RayGilear, ray would always say um,
numbers are people, numbers arenamed, they have names and
(19:44):
people matter to god.
And one of those helpful thingswe did at nbm was we had a
spreadsheet of people who becomeor who professed faith, and
that wasn't.
We didn't publish that anywhere.
That wasn't for us to wave andlook at us.
In fact, at the time I remembervisitors to our city would
often say, oh, the era ofevangelism has gone, and I'd go.
(20:05):
Well, nbm had 70 adultconversions last year.
I've got their names, but thereason we had their names was so
that we could track them andmake sure that they were still
in a Bible study and follow themup.
And so numbers are one thing,but they're people.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Names is the key thing.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, they're names, and numbers have names, they're
people and it's not as if I can.
Just, you know, I can't thinkof one church I've had anything
to do with who is sopragmatically driven that it's
just like, oh, someone put ahand up.
They're actually stretching,but they put the hand up
Christian that's not how itworks here.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
What about as you've gone, because you've been doing
lots of consulting withministers?
We've just heard the GlenmorePark story.
But what are some of the otherstories of churches across the
places you've consulted andthey've thought, ah, because
I've got to, I mean we'll put agraph up from the REACH
Australia where they've done aconsultation and their
(21:00):
consultation got a number ofprior to the consultation, maybe
1.54% conversion rate,something like that and then a
massive change when they'vestarted to implement that kind
of intentional strategy thatyou've talked about with the
trusted evangelistic course andthat kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, I would just offer that, generally speaking,
a consult either with myself orwith Reach or anything like this
is not a silver bullet tofixing things.
It requires a clear-eyed leaderwho's willing to make changes
and to listen to, but, more thananything, to understand reality
and to go hey, what's the layof the land at the moment and
(21:43):
where do we want to get to andhow are we going to get there?
And it's been a great privilege.
One of the things that I get tosee is, yeah, a lot of churches
in different contexts acrossthe city, but not just Sydney.
By the way, I coach guys aroundthe world and in Australia and
so a really exciting story is alocal inner city close to the
city church here in Sydney whohave had a fine gospel pulpit
(22:10):
ministry for many, many years,but never a real pathway for
non-Christians who get convertedto enter into church easily.
So they'd often lose people andhave an identical story to
Chris, and one of the key thingswas that it was the rector, the
senior pastor, who was speakingat the course in this case and
just was able to really pour hisconfidence into it, which was
(22:30):
infectious around the place.
And another one is in thewestern suburbs.
They're in a very lowersocioeconomic area Now.
Traditionally speaking, thoseare actually very easy places to
run courses and get people tocome to things.
But they've had a very, verylong-term approach of going
right.
We want to not just get peopleto five weeks, we want to make
(22:52):
sure they plug into a Biblestudy afterwards and they're
finishing up their second yearof running things and they've
gone from really one or two ayear for probably 20 years to
they had seven last year, 14this year I got a text message
this morning in the easternsuburbs so far this year, seven
and Sutherland Shire.
(23:14):
I mean it's all over the placeactually.
And the thing is what'sfascinating is that it's not a
big personality at play oranything.
It's really just slowed down,consistent, planned, thoughtful
prioritization and it's.
It's difficult because it'salways prioritizing invisible
people over the visible andthat's difficult, but it it does
(23:34):
work because the saints, wehave the holy spirit within us.
We want to evangelize, we wantto bring people in.
So, yeah, it's happening.
People become Christians inAustralia every single day and
young people become Christiansevery single day.
It's astonishing.
So yeah lots to be encouraged by.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
One of my mates was at a meeting with a number of
senior ministers the other dayand they were discussing the
feasibility of this 5% targetand he said the big discussion
was do we count kids and youthas well as adults?
And they said if we includekids and youth, we're killing it
.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But if we don't, include kids and youth we're
getting nowhere near it andwhat's your?
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Well, I offer we count youth and adults
separately so that we have twospreadsheets, because we want to
rejoice over the profession offaith in youth.
80%, so we're told you know,profess faith under the age of
18.
However, that is indicative.
What do you make of that?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Well.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Dave, I think that number is about 50% of that
number are our children.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Just not us.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
But the children of Christian people.
About half our churches arefilled with those people.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
But you have eight children, I have six, so it is
us as well.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So we're seeing conversions in that younger age
group About 50-50 in one sense.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
So it's kind of underage 18.
There's another way of skewingit, which is to say it's not
that it's saying 80% of ourpopulation are getting converted
under the age of 18.
It's saying 80% of ourChristians, which actually is
saying we're just is it possible?
We're just really bad atevangelism to adults.
You know that we see, but wehaven't put enough effort into
it, and that's what I think.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It's a different game , thinking about what does it
look like to take the message ofJesus to young people as adults
, and I think that historicallywe've been doing fairly well in
that teenage space.
But the idea of actuallyfocusing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We're just noting that you are the chair of the
former chair of Anglican YouthWorks and we love young people
becoming Christians.
I was spoken to a youth councilrecently.
The 80% number is actually asign that we're failing in adult
evangelism.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Yeah, so we need to be thinking about everyone, and
there are a lot of people whoare over the age of 18.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
How do you count?
I mean, I was in a discussionwith somebody the last 24 hours
and I showed them essentially myequivalent to your spreadsheet,
my list of names.
How do you qualify to get onthat list?
What I mean is it's not justputting up a hand or ticking a
(26:14):
box at a card, it's when do youwrite somebody down on the list
of?
We saw them saved this year atGlenmore Park.
Yes, I mean Phil Colgan, I wastalking to him last week and he
kind of joked that at his churchhe almost had to go to Bible
college before he was preparedto write you down on the list.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Well, I mean, the book you want to be in is the
Lamb's Book of Life.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, that's the one, so we're trying to.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
We want to find expression of faith in someone,
and really it's.
We're thinking about someonethat we now know trusts Jesus.
Their life is turned around,repentance and faith.
They're embedded into the lifeof the church.
So it's not someone who camealong to something and is left
again, but really someone who'sgrounded in the faith and you're
actually seeing the fruit ofthe gospel in their life.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I completely agree.
I think there's two ways ofdoing this that I've seen as
effective together.
The first one is a professionof faith, using that language,
not conversion, because we don'tknow they're converted, but we
want to rejoice and trust in theprofession if it's from what we
can tell to be a genuineprofession.
So that's why courses andthings are helpful, because you
(27:19):
get to know the people, becauseyou've been talking to them for
six, eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And when they actually say I believe in him as
my Lord and my Savior, and ifthey do a feedback form.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
You do evangelism explosion diagnostic question or
something like this how do youget to heaven?
And if they answer that in away and you're like, wow, they
seem to have got this andthey're, and we get to the
language of conversion, I thinkit's most helpful at that point
(27:46):
to say you've got to the pointwhere you've handed them over
from the evangelism world to theBible study maturity type world
, and that will take a year insome frameworks.
So that's why having afollow-up Bible study is so
important.
So if someone makes aprofession, we rejoice, but if
(28:07):
they drop off eight weeks later,what do you do to that name?
Well, you take it off the list.
They're no longer professingfaith and that protects you from
doubling numbers, becauseotherwise, I mean, I would have
been counted eight times.
I made eight professions offaith.
And it's the same that you'vegot records and they're not
using the records in order toimpress or in order to pretend,
(28:30):
but in order to track people andsee where they're at.
But I think, yeah, thatlanguage of profession is a
helpful one and we rejoice,trusting that he who calls upon
the name of the Lord will besaved.
But we are cautious.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, I also find that just having that document
and we use a Google documentsuper helpful, because it stops
me from counting them inNovember last year and March
this year.
Otherwise, if I just had anumber, I'd be tempted to do
that.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I can see how evangelism has so often led to
both liberalism and accusationsof sneaky lies, because, oh, the
temptation in all of us toattach ourselves to these sort
of things and think it reflectsus well.
So we must be cutthroat ongenuine evangelism and genuine
(29:20):
conversion, and genuine whilstat the same point being
optimistic and rejoicing, andjust persistent, you know, and
able to keep going through it,dave.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
There's an irony in that in one sense, because when
you think about mission, youoften think about yourself or
yourself as a pastor, like youknow.
Am I doing a good enough job?
Am I doing this well?
Am I a failure?
When actually mission's alwaysabout the other person, it's
kind of like I don't care aboutmyself, I'm actually concerned
about them, their salvation, andso taking our eyes off self and
(29:51):
just thinking about the otherperson and even performance as a
minister, you think.
You know, there are years wherethis hasn't been the case at
our church and it's kind of likewe just faithfully keep going,
yes, but just really have oureye on the other person and not
us.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
And the term that's used when I worked at EV the
term I love it is a mission.
Work is people work it's aboutthe people and you can't do it
if you don't know them.
And then you weep when Iremember sitting there with one
of the other pastors weeping asone of the guys left as he made
a profession and six weeks downthe track he was gone and it was
just devastating.
(30:27):
But also I walked away goingman, we've known that guy for
two months and we're cryingabout him leaving.
Jesus and it's not over, butthat's the kind of you need
someone in there who's reallygot eyes on these people.
They're people, they'reprecious people.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, this is one of the things that for for our
church.
We invest heavily in terms ofthe staff.
So Steve Gooch is on our staffteam.
He's responsible for runningour evangelistic course and the
mission element of our churchlife and that's actually a big
sacrifice in the sense of he'sreally good at it.
He loves people.
(31:05):
They know that he'll walk overhot coals for someone, so they
feel deeply loved.
He explains the gospel clearly,but also in terms of our staff
team, it means it's asignificant proportion of our
budget in effect has beendedicated to mission, when it
could be dedicated to a wholelot of other things that made
our life easier, and so it's abig cost.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Last question, David the small church, the church of
150 and the church of 500,what's going to be the hard
thing for each of thosedifferent sizes about adopting
that 5% target?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think the hard thing is always the same, which
is the self-reflective nature ofthe entire endeavour.
In essence, that to begin itall, it will require a mirror on
the current state of play andaddressing if we're not hitting
that at the moment, we're goingto have to change something in
(32:10):
order to hit that.
And my take has been it's notabout finding a plan, that's
quite simple.
Executing the plan.
That's a bit trickier, but it'sthat first step of being able
to go oh well, if we haven'tbeen hitting it, that's not
great, but it's not living andwallowing in it and that's what
I want to.
I've always loved the bookGlenmore Park and many others.
It's actually saying, okay, sothat's happened.
(32:30):
Well, what do we learn fromthat and how do we move on?
And I think that, small, big orlarge, once that happens and
you can purse through that, thenyou're free to be able to go
okay, well, what can we change?
What can we do slightlydifferently, differently?
But if you're unwilling toacknowledge that it hasn't been
happening and actually that'snot great, it's going to be very
(32:51):
, very difficult to make ithappen.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Gentlemen.
David Jensen has been my guest.
He leads the evangelism part ofthe Department of Evangelism
and New Churches in the SydneyAnglican Church, and also Chris
Braga with us.
Senior Pastor of Grace WestChurch at Glenmore Park, to the
west of Sydney.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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