October 14, 2025 • 36 mins
How can we help those trapped in addiction? What about when we ourselves are the ones struggling?
Addiction is often an elephant in the room for pastors — whether it’s alcohol, substances, pornography, or sex addiction. And Antony’s research is asking: “How does the gospel of Jesus Christ bring real hope into the deep brokenness of addiction?”
Antony Dandato is Principal of Harare Theological College in Zimbabwe — a college that’s supported by our friends at Anglican Aid.
Antony did a ministry apprenticeship in Perth, Western Australia, before returning home to Zimbabwe, where he led student ministries and the national Ministry Apprenticeship Program. He’s now heading up Harare Theological College — and somehow, in the midst of all that, he’s also working on a PhD exploring addiction.
Antony brings observations from ministry in Zimbabwe, and how churches everywhere — including ours — can respond with both truth and compassion.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
How can a Christian addict flourish?
It is the Pastor's Heart, andit's Dominic Steele, and today
we are pushing into the area ofministry leaders and addictions.
How can we help?
And what about when we ourselvesare addicted?
Anthony Dandato, the principalof Harare Theological College in
Zimbabwe, is with us.
Anthony did a ministryapprenticeship in Perth, has led
(00:28):
student ministries and theministry apprenticeship program
in Zimbabwe, and now heads upthe Harare Theological College.
And somehow, amongst all ofthat, he is working on a PhD on
addiction.
Addiction, it is often theelephant in the room for
pastors, whether it's alcohol,substances, pornography, or sex
or gambling.
(00:49):
And Anthony's work is exploringhow the gospel of Jesus Christ
brings hope into significantbrokenness.
And look, just a note, ourPastor's Heart sponsor, Anglican
Aid, supports Anthony'sTheological College in Harari,
and we have linked to theAnglican Aid page in our show
notes in case you would like tosupport them.
(01:09):
Anthony, I wonder if we couldstart with your Pastor's Heart
for the Addict.
And um, I mean, how did yourconcern to minister in this
space, to think in this space,actually come about?
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Thank you, Dominic, for having me.
I think four stories.
The first one was when Istarted, when I finished
college, went into ministryabout 15 years ago, uh, it
suddenly came to my attentionhow many pastors struggled with
addiction, especially uponaddiction.
(01:42):
And it was more of a copingmechanism in the stress and the
struggles of ministry.
And I don't think that they werenot Christians.
I think they were Christians.
And because they were strugglingand fighting it, it's evidence
that they were they knew theright thing to do, but they were
struggling.
(02:03):
Uh the second thing thathappened is I moved into
ministry, uh, into a new churchabout five, four years ago, and
I was appointed to lead a youngadult's ministry.
Many of them were kind of my ageor a bit younger.
And during that time, as I wastrying to bring them together,
(02:25):
some of the ladies wereuncomfortable.
And I was like, why?
And they began to hint about thestruggles among the male young
adults.
And didn't take me time as I wasbringing them together that
alcohol addiction was a reality.
And in the process of that, oneof them actually went before the
Lord.
(02:46):
And as I was trying to helpthem, I it unveiled my own
weakness that I really didn'tknow where to start in helping
them.
And so I didn't ask him aquestion.
Well, I knew that a restoredrelationship with God through
Jesus Christ helps someone alsobe restored in their
relationship one with another.
(03:06):
It helps them flourish as aChristian, mentally,
emotionally, relationally.
But how could I help comealongside these young men and
help them in their journey?
Fast forward, the other twostories.
I met a woman, got married as aChristian, but somehow she ended
up in an abusive relationship.
To try and cope with that, shejust she just went to she
(03:28):
started drinking just to getsleep.
But before she realized that sheneeded more quantity to get
sleep, more quantity to getsleep, until she was really
hooked.
She couldn't go to bed withoutwithout drinking.
So she ended up addicted.
And then the last story was of aChristian leader who just went
(03:50):
out partying, started work, hadmoney, went out with friends,
and said that he actually justlagged alcohol.
And so before he realized he wasdrinking more and more and more
and more and more, it was kindof something in his body that
just got hooked.
And as I, all these four storiesfor me helped me to realize that
(04:12):
there's a problem.
But as a pastor started to askthe question, what does a leader
need to do to help those who arewho know the Lord, who love the
Lord, um, but are strugglingwith an addiction?
Is it that they're notChristians?
I don't think so.
I think there's a big dichotomy.
Uh there's a big space.
(04:33):
What's the place of faith andtrusting in the Lord and being
born again on one side?
And what is the place of medicaltreatment, the psychology, uh,
psychiatrists, and all that incoming along?
And I saw that people tend to goto extremes in one side.
People just say pray, and someof that is very, very important
(04:55):
and very good.
People need a restoredrelationship with God and they
need to be helped.
Um, that begins it with the HolySpirit and with the gospel.
People make progress.
But on the other side, I thinkuh some were given medical
treatment and all that.
Uh one without the other, had alot of shortfalls.
(05:20):
And so that's what I'm digging.
What's the interface of trustingin the Lord, knowing he's your
savior, seeking to love God andserve him as a child of God who
knows the gospel?
And how do you come alongside?
What's part part dietpsychiatry, psychologist, and
all that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
It's a whole kind of disease, addiction inside of it.
Exactly.
Um, I mean let's just roleplayit.
Just imagine that I'm coming toyou and uh and I'm opening up
about a struggle in with porn.
You know, how how would you playthe conversation out?
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Well when it comes to addiction, it is very
important to understand theperson and their circumstances
first.
So um an addict is verysensitive.
They are very much alert, theywant to protect their addiction,
(06:22):
especially if they don't want todeal with it.
They might even know that thereare problems, they are
struggling, but they don't wantto acknowledge that this is the
problem, whether it's alcohol orseg or or sexual addiction,
that's that's what is affectingtheir marriage because they are
watching porn and all this.
So they will do everything toprotect that.
So you don't want the moment youtry to address that first,
(06:44):
they'll protect it.
So ask the question Yeah, what'shappening?
Um, why do you think that ishappening?
What do you think is causingthat?
Uh, what do you need?
What do you think you need?
And and as you ask, let them letthem begin opening up.
And and as the relationshipgoes, they trust you and they
(07:05):
begin to be more vulnerable andmore vulnerable and begin to
allow you into their space.
And so trust is very important,relationship is very important,
and so ask questions that bringsyou into their space and
therefore can end up telling,you know what?
I'm going through a divorce.
Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
You're going to right, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, then that might be one of the things.
Exactly.
Or, you know what?
I just have this hyper desirefor women, and and I I just
can't control it.
And then you get, okay, you youthey are coming now, they are
vulnerable.
And you you can then begin to soask questions, hear what's
happening in the environment.
(07:46):
Is it a biological problem?
Is it a social problem?
Is it a psychological problem?
Is it the environment in whichthey grew up?
Were they abused?
Because trauma is also anothercause.
Were they abused growing up?
What are the causes?
So just understand theenvironment by asking questions,
show that you are listening.
Do a lot of listening thantalking with addicts.
SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
I I was you you generalized a moment ago in that
the young adults in the church,the predominant problem was
alcohol.
Whereas amongst the clergy, inyour experience, it was a bigger
issue with porn.
Um I I was a little surpr Oh, umif you want to just Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, I I think uh look into history, uh power.
I think as a in in the Africancontext, in the Zimbabwean
context, um the pastor holdsvery much a lot of influence on
their congregations.
So you have a lot of power, umand and people look up to you.
(08:54):
Everyone wants to be associatedwith power.
Um and so I think the devil,look into the Bible, how many,
how many leaders, uh, even Davidhimself, um it was sexual
resistance for exactly, exactly.
Solomon had thousand wives, thenhis heart ended up uh going
astray.
(09:15):
I think the devil power womenand and and and and and that is
is a very dangerous atmospherewithin the church that the devil
harnesses to pull people down.
But I think also it's a realstruggle um for uh when you are
(09:35):
in marriage and in ministry, umsex is a big problem that we
need to talk about.
It's not only within thecongregants, but also even
within the leadership ofchurches, and I think it needs
to be uh spoken into, addressed,and helped.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Um what do the pastors do that makes it worse?
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
Well I think um it would be interesting for to do a
research on that, to say whatwhat are the drivers?
Um but in Africa I think youhave pastors who are overworked,
pastors who are bent out, uh,one pastor mostly for a church,
(10:26):
sometimes two, three churches.
Um, a lack of accountability, asyou do that, there aren't many
people around you to say, hey,what's happening with you?
How can I come alongside?
So who disciples the pastor, whopastors the pastor, kind of
question.
And and I think that creates adangerous environment where you
(10:48):
are kind of at the top there andno one no one really to hold you
accountable.
Um and when you burn out, youlose God.
When you you find a copingmechanism, and a lot of people
addiction has to do with copingin a broken world.
Uh sin brings about distorteddesires.
(11:10):
And and when we deal with thosedistorted desires, rather than
running to God who who restoresus in a holistic way, spiritual,
mental, relational, emotional,we run to quick fixes.
So I don't think so.
I think it's it's trying to copewith the pressures of ministry,
with the pressures of life aspastors, maybe even their
(11:33):
marriages.
Believe you me, marriages arestruggling.
There's a high rate of divorceeven in Zimbabwe.
And and ever since COVID, thathas risen.
And we have seen a lot ofpastors committing suicide,
which means there are a lot ofpressures working against
pastors.
And I think coping mechanism inthat brokenness of the world and
(11:54):
facing that, they don't haveanyone sometimes to talk to.
I appreciate Australia here.
You have counselors for pastorsand you have mentorship programs
for pastors.
That's very, very important.
But in Africa, we don't havethat.
I looked for a mentor.
Three of them said, What isthat?
I don't know what that is.
Until I went to a white friendof mine in Zimbabwe who was
(12:16):
like, Oh, yeah, I can do that.
But most of my black pastorfriends who are older than me,
they were asking me, that hasnever been done to me.
I don't know how to do that.
So you realize that there's avacuum, especially in the
African context, where seniorpastors, mentor young pastors,
it's it's not it's not common.
And so, what's the end result?
(12:36):
You have these people committingsuicide um at the end because no
one has helped.
But it begins with an addictionin different ways, in different
ways, until they it leads tothat.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
The story you told at the beginning of um uh the
woman who was going through themarriage breakdown.
And um, I'm just thinking aboutthat and thinking that actually
there was something going wrongin my life that prompted me into
this unhelpful pattern ofbehavior.
Do you want to speak to that?
I mean, or is it are some of ourissues coming out of trauma in
(13:10):
the past?
Yeah.
Or the present.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
Um so in the brokenness of in the world
because of sin, um, what I couldsee there was uh a lack of
discipleship.
I think that's one other realproblem we have in our context
in Zimbabwe.
Because we have we are you havea pastor who is trying to
(13:35):
shepherd a whole congregation bythemselves, you can't be
everywhere with everyone.
And one of the my passion withministry with the apprenticeship
program is its emphasis ontraining so that you can have
multiple leaders within thecongregation and speaking the
truth in love one to another, sothat rather than depending on
(13:57):
the pastor alone, which thenoverwhelves them, you there is
congregational discipleship.
I think what this woman laggedwas other women who are also
married coming alongside her andand saying, Hey, what's
happening?
How can we help?
And also deep personalrelationships where she could be
(14:20):
vulnerable.
Remember, uh scripture saysolder teach the older women to
disciple the younger women.
That that biblical principle.
With our fast-paced culture andvery much individualized,
especially in the city, we areit's it's very easy for someone
to struggle by themselveswithout anyone to talk to.
(14:44):
And I think the church shouldreally be intentional to fight
for home group fellowship,encouraging people to meet, not
just a small, it's in smallgroups, but even one-on-one,
where people can grow deep,personal, vulnerable, and they
can be vulnerable with eachother so that you can really
hear what's really happening.
(15:04):
If she had that, then it couldhave helped, I think, to provide
social capital, supportivesystems for her to flourish and
see how to deal with this.
I think some of it was reallypolice case.
The end case scenario which gother to really get help is that
(15:26):
the guy released the dogs onher.
And she showed me the scarswhere the dogs attacked the
dogs.
Exactly.
The man abused her to that levelwhere he released dogs on her.
And she showed me the scars.
I could not believe it.
And I was like, I was in tearsas I was listening to her.
And that's the level of abuse,but she had no one.
(15:48):
She spoke to a pastor, and thepastor said, Let's pray, which
is the other extreme.
But I think it's a police case.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
He didn't cause the alarm.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
You didn't go to the police.
You didn't go to the police, youdidn't go to a psychiatrist.
He just said, Let's pray, I'llpray for you.
The Lord will save him, you'llcome to salvation and all that.
But it's God saves at his time.
She's in a place where she needsmore than just prayer.
She needs, she needs the policeto come in.
You need to go to a sarcastic.
(16:16):
Why is she remaining in that?
She had traumatic experiences inchildhood.
For her, she has she hasnormalized this life.
And for her, it's okay.
Maybe I did something wrong.
I need, I need to endure, I needto pray.
She was telling me how she wouldfast for days.
I think if there wereintentional discipleship in that
church, that could have reallyhelped her.
(16:38):
And people could have known whatwas happening in her.
And if the pastor, when he hadher body, he did not only say
pray, but he had also gone intoone under the ministry.
Lawyers in the church would havesaid, please, this is a this is
a case.
I think as pastors, we need toharness also the various skills
(16:59):
and understanding.
Uh, let's know the Bible, let'sknow the gospel, let's preach
the gospel.
It saves, it transforms, but weneed to harness the various
skills that God enriches hisbody with.
Lawyers, psychiatrists, medicalpeople to come alongside all
these means.
Addiction is a complex thing.
There's medical issues withinthe makeup of a person.
(17:22):
There are social factors thatcome from the brokenness in
terms of family.
If it is young adults, we arerealizing that even in the
schools they have come from.
You can also think thebrokenness in Zimbabwe,
unemployment, which is asocio-economic issue.
People are struggling to copewith that.
All these factors, you cannotdeal with them alone as a pastor
(17:44):
and be speaking to all that.
You're not an expert in allthat.
You need you need to harness allthe various gifts that God has
brought in the church and beable, as you bring repentance,
also harness those who can bringtheir expertise in various ways.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
How are you thinking about um addiction as a disease
as well as a sin?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
It's a case-by-case scenario, uh, Dominic.
Um the more you the more you dosomething, it it has mental
effect where neurons develop.
Like just like reading, yourbrain is a muscle.
(18:29):
Uh the more you uh you read, themore you read, different
networks develop in your brainthat help you to to grow your
capacity in terms of reading anddoing things faster because of
that repetition.
It is the same thing thathappens.
So some people, because of theway they are made up, they drink
a bottle, they're okay, theydrink 20, they will they never
(18:54):
get addicted.
But for some, uh their body,their tolerance level is higher.
So they can drink 20.
Next, they need 40 to fill thesame level, their body responds
differently.
And it is that makeup that as apastor, you need to say, hey,
how about you?
Have you gone to the doctor?
Because they are experts whounderstand how our bodies
(19:14):
respond to things differently.
You might take pain medication,you will never get addicted to
them.
Someone might take painmedication and suddenly they
just want to keep taking it.
Why do you respond that way andthat one doesn't respond that
way?
They're made differently.
So it is that recognition thatwe are all different and respond
to things differently.
(19:35):
One might lead another in adifferent path than another.
And it's it is that diversitythat God has brought as a good
thing in his church, but thatalso creates interdependence
where we need to help each otherand walk alongside each other.
That's why I'm a fan oftraining, but also even
discipleship as the buildingblock of that.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
Uh, what about the addict and lies?
Um, yeah.
Uh, I mean, because I mean, youuh you think as you invest in
someone's life as a pastor, andif you feel like they're telling
you the truth, then you feelprepared to keep investing on
that.
But if you feel like they'remessing with you, yeah, then you
(20:20):
think, am I wasting my time withyou?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, Dominic.
The There are various levelsthat an addict goes through.
The contemplation, contemplationstage, which is the first stage
where basically they are stillcomfortable with it, it means
that they are not willing tochange or to do anything about
(20:45):
their addiction.
Um, if you take that person,they have drunk themselves to
stupor or they have uh taken adrug, they have overdosed, you
take them to a rehab and you youget them treated, as long as
they feel they're okay, they'lldo it again.
(21:07):
And even if afterwards you tryto speak to them, this is where
lies come in.
They want to protect this thingbecause they still enjoy it,
they still like it.
And so they'll um they will lieto go to make sure that they
will get back to it.
However, the next stage, whichis now they fall face down.
(21:28):
So in Alcoholic Anonymous,they'll tell you that as long as
someone does not feel like theyneed help, leave them.
Let them let them do until theyfall face down, which they call
rock bottom, and they themselvessay, I need help.
And this is what got me toreally relate it to the
(21:51):
Christian faith.
It's like someone who is at thebottom, at the worst of their
life, and they're saying, God, Ineed you.
They are willing to receiveexternal help.
That is the first step.
Once that is, then they say, Youcan now come along them.
The other prize before they getthere, provide help, but not
(22:15):
much.
Uh, but when they fall face downand they're saying they are
willing to receive externalhelp, now come alongside them
and begin providing help.
Such a person, yes, they theywill lie maybe when they
relapse, but they are more tocover up the shape.
Exactly.
But they are more it's mainlybecause they are ashamed, they
(22:36):
don't want to disappoint you.
They have made progress, butthen they relapse.
Their lying is not because theywant this thing.
Because remember, they have beenrigid rock bottom.
So they want help.
They know they need help.
You have come alongside them,you are now helping them, they
are making progress.
Before they get rock bottom,they'll lie because they want
they enjoy it, they areprotecting it.
But once they begin recovery,when they relapse, they will lie
(23:01):
not because they want to protectit, but because they are
ashamed.
Oh, he helped me so much.
And here's what I've done.
And I have a young man whohappened that a couple weeks
ago, and he was lying, ah no,I'm I'm okay and all that.
But you can tell when you knowyour person and you are working
with them.
And I was like, hey, you'reminimizing it.
Exactly.
I was like, no, it's okay.
(23:22):
If you have had a bottle, if youhave just tell me and we can
start again.
They have been rejected manytimes.
And I've seen it in our in ourchurch.
People say, This is whathappened.
No, these ones is their life,let them be.
And so people have given up onpeople.
And I think as pastors, like thesow of the seed, we throw the
(23:45):
seed, which is the gospel.
We never give up on people.
We keep loving them, but wealways try and find others to
help in different ways.
And I want to say the lies workout.
Is it because they arecomfortable, they want to
protect it, or is it becausethey are ashamed they've let you
down and they don't want you tobe disappointed and and and
(24:06):
therefore reject them.
If always say, I'm here, itdoesn't matter.
Uh call me, let me know, betruthful with me, and don't be
judgmental on them.
If you say anything that showslike you are judging them, they
close up and they'll never theywill never open again.
So you wouldn't want that tohappen in gospel ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
I got two thoughts rolling around in my head.
One is the I mean the thetherapeutic side says um it's a
an addiction and somebody willrelapse and the Bible side says
um no one who continues in sin,uh one John.
(24:56):
One John, how do you how do youhelp me there?
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Well, I think the big question to ask is um the
continuity, is it deliberate oris it a struggle?
I think when when it is the oneJohn, the continuing sin,
there's no fighting.
Someone is enjoying it, they'recomfortable in it.
You need to share the gospel,help them to come to repentance
(25:22):
and to the serving knowledge ofChrist.
So, with such a person, I'llshare the gospel with the hope
that I'm helping them to seethat they are enslaved, they
they think they are controllingthis, but this thing is
controlling them, and they needthe uh they need Christ to set
them free.
That's the first step they need.
(25:42):
And then they'll be able tofight it with the help of God
through his word and the HolySpirit and the community of
believers, all of them workingtogether, Ephesians 4 11 to 16.
But if if they are struggling, Iwant them to not give up on
struggle, on, on fighting it.
I want them to say, you knowwhat?
(26:03):
You are struggling with alcohol,you are struggling with porn.
You know, someone alsostruggling with with lying.
Some people just some peoplegossip.
Exactly.
They gossip a lot.
And every time you try, tomorrowthey gossip, they go, they they
have this propensity to gossip.
(26:25):
Some people are workaholics,they just can't stop.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
We've all got addictions to different sins.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
That's what I'm trying to say.
You know what?
Keep fighting it.
We are all fighting differentdemons or feeding in the car or
whatever.
Exactly, something like that.
And and you need to fight this.
Anger.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And God helps us.
It's a journey, it's not it'snot a sprint, it's a marathon.
The Christian life is Godworking us to prune the old
(26:53):
self, he's transforming us, andthe these are struggles that we
have.
And so I'll take them topassages like um, make every
effort, first Peter, make everysecond Peter, make every effort
to add to goodness, kindness, tothis.
So there's a sense in which youwork out your salvation because
God is at work in you to willand to act according to his
purpose.
(27:13):
So God has already saved you, hehas given his Holy Spirit, he
has word, is working in you, butthat gives you the confidence to
work on it.
You will fall, but you riseagain, not because you are able,
but God is at work in you.
So I want them to have thatgospel hope.
And I'll say, Hey, you knowwhat?
One day this is going to end.
When Jesus comes back, he'lldeal with this.
(27:34):
So we never give up.
We keep fighting.
And believe you me, some go fiveyears and then they relapse.
But the longer they go, the lessthe desire.
And I pray that God will grow inthem the right desires over the
wrong desires.
But whether God will do that andwhen he'll do that, we don't
(27:55):
know.
So we keep them keep fighting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
Um the Reform Gospel speaks well into the culture of
brokenness.
Um and and that's really whatwe've been talking about here.
The prosperity gospel has acompletely different framework.
Um help me under I mean, and inAfrica, you've got a cr all
(28:20):
sorts of crude versions of theprosperity gospel.
Um and and my impression is thatit's even more prevalent in
Africa than it is here.
That's true.
Uh how does the prosperitygospel how is it unhelpful for
the addict?
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Remember the fourth story that I shared with you
about the young man who was aleader in his church and started
to see that he kind of enjoyeduh drinking and went on and on
and on with that.
Early on when he was struggling,he went to his pastor and he
shared with him, Pastor, I thinkI'm struggling with this.
(29:04):
But also the pastor was kind ofobserving it.
In fact, his team, music teamguys were observing it because
he would come to practice a bittipsy, and they said, Hey, this
seems to be a problem.
Uh, how about you get help?
So the pastor rightfully um camealongside him to help him.
But that's where the I think themistake we tend to do, uh,
(29:30):
especially in those circles, ornot I'll say in the in the
pending in the extremePentecostal circles.
He just said, pray, so praytogether, which was right.
Um, but then when he relapsed,he was like, You are not
trusting God enough.
You need to have more faith.
You need to have this.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
So I mean, it sounds like I remember we had a woman
join us in our church from aprosperity church.
And she'd been told there thatif you just have enough faith,
there'll be no pain inchildbirth.
Do you know?
And so that if you just have anIt's your the problem.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
Yeah, you that's though that's that's what the
pastor indirectly was saying.
You it was very legalistic.
So he ended up when I wastalking to him, he doesn't go to
church.
He said, No.
I I don't for him, it was sohurting he walked out.
It's another thing to ask, washe ever saved?
(30:22):
That's not the question we areasking.
And I don't think that's whatyou're asking.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
You're asking how this can become damaging.
And that's what happened.
It became damaging.
If the pastor had if he'd had atrue gospel.
Exactly.
I think the true gospel is thefirst step, and then from there,
harnessing the gifts that Godgives, recognizing that all
(30:46):
truth is God's truth.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Anthony, just tell us what's going on with the
church in Zimbabwe and yourtheological college in Harari.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah.
Dominic, I was listening to youruh podcast uh the other week, I
think a week or two back, uh,where you mentioned that
Spajjan's College closed inLondon and Trinity Evangelica.
I wasn't aware about that.
Chicago.
And and that got me thinking assomeone closing, or moving to
Canada.
Yeah, yeah.
(31:15):
And they're um seeing a drop interms of students.
Uh and I was thinking about myown context.
Uh, moved in into HarariTheological College.
We had 30 students two yearsago, and we and we advertised.
We just used online and uh fastforward, this is two years
later, we have 70 students.
(31:37):
You've doubled.
We have doubled.
Price God for that.
Uh and and I'm I'm thanking Godfor that.
Uh and and I think we areputting a bit of some brakes on
on that advertising because youcan't keep up with the
enrollment.
We don't have the space.
We don't have the space.
Our we have had to createfoldable doors for our classes
so that we can divide theclasses.
(31:59):
Um, we have small numbers perclass at the moment.
But in case we have big numbers,we have to open those doors and
feed 20 students.
And we have seen that thathappen.
And and and as I was thinkingabout that, yes, we have the
same challenges as Spageon andTrinity because we need fees,
and we fees will never run acollege, so you need funding and
all of that.
(32:20):
But 2009-2010, when I was heredoing student ministry, part of
the reason I went back to Africawas I learned then that the
Catholic Church had started torecruit more priests in Africa
and for the churches in theWest.
Because they could not find morepeople getting into the
(32:43):
priesthood around then.
And so I could have stayed, Igot a job here, but I could have
stayed.
But I said I want to go back,work in the student ministry,
because the church in the Westwill need Southern Africa and
South America to send pastors inthe long haul, just like the
Catholic Church was alreadyexperiencing.
But how they were going to comehere, I could see then that it
(33:07):
was it was different.
They were not going to come hereas priests, they were going to
or as pastors.
But the West wantedprofessionals.
There were people coming asdoctors, as nurses, they were
coming as engineers.
And and part of my conviction, Isaid to my friends, I'm going
(33:27):
back so that I can send ahundred more like me.
Um because I feel I had come tounderstand the gospel and and so
passionate about it.
I wanted them to come with amissional mindset and to save
the church here, hopefullybecoming pastors.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
So I think And to Zimbabwe from Zimbabwe
contributing to world mission.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
To the world mission, but differently.
SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
Churches, people going as engineers, as doctors,
but with a missional mindset,they're going to become pastors
in the West.
And believe you me, tell me thedemographies in your churches.
How many are truly Caucasian andhow many are internationals?
Um you see that what I'm talkingabout is real.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for coming andsharing with us.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Thank you, Dominic.
It's a joint.
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
Anthony Dandato has been our guest on the Pastor's
Heart today.
And uh he is, of course, theprincipal of Harare Theological
College in Zimbabwe.
And look, we have linked to theAnglican Aid uh website link.
Uh, they are raising funds foruh the Harare Theological
College.
They're also one of our Pastor'sHeart sponsors, and you can go
(34:37):
to that link and donate tosupport that work tax deductibly
from within Australia.
This is the Pastor's Heart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
How can a Christian addict flourish?
It is the Pastor's Heart, andit's Dominic Steele, and today
we are pushing into the area ofministry leaders and addictions.
How can we help?
And what about when we ourselvesare addicted?
Anthony Dandato, the principalof Harare Theological College in
Zimbabwe, is with us.
Anthony did a ministryapprenticeship in Perth, has led
(00:28):
student ministries and theministry apprenticeship program
in Zimbabwe, and now heads upthe Harare Theological College.
And somehow, amongst all ofthat, he is working on a PhD on
addiction.
Addiction, it is often theelephant in the room for
pastors, whether it's alcohol,substances, pornography, or sex
or gambling.
(00:49):
And Anthony's work is exploringhow the gospel of Jesus Christ
brings hope into significantbrokenness.
And look, just a note, ourPastor's Heart sponsor, Anglican
Aid, supports Anthony'sTheological College in Harari,
and we have linked to theAnglican Aid page in our show
notes in case you would like tosupport them.
(01:09):
Anthony, I wonder if we couldstart with your Pastor's Heart
for the Addict.
And um, I mean, how did yourconcern to minister in this
space, to think in this space,actually come about?
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Thank you, Dominic, for having me.
I think four stories.
The first one was when Istarted, when I finished
college, went into ministryabout 15 years ago, uh, it
suddenly came to my attentionhow many pastors struggled with
addiction, especially uponaddiction.
(01:42):
And it was more of a copingmechanism in the stress and the
struggles of ministry.
And I don't think that they werenot Christians.
I think they were Christians.
And because they were strugglingand fighting it, it's evidence
that they were they knew theright thing to do, but they were
struggling.
(02:03):
Uh the second thing thathappened is I moved into
ministry, uh, into a new churchabout five, four years ago, and
I was appointed to lead a youngadult's ministry.
Many of them were kind of my ageor a bit younger.
And during that time, as I wastrying to bring them together,
(02:25):
some of the ladies wereuncomfortable.
And I was like, why?
And they began to hint about thestruggles among the male young
adults.
And didn't take me time as I wasbringing them together that
alcohol addiction was a reality.
And in the process of that, oneof them actually went before the
Lord.
(02:46):
And as I was trying to helpthem, I it unveiled my own
weakness that I really didn'tknow where to start in helping
them.
And so I didn't ask him aquestion.
Well, I knew that a restoredrelationship with God through
Jesus Christ helps someone alsobe restored in their
relationship one with another.
(03:06):
It helps them flourish as aChristian, mentally,
emotionally, relationally.
But how could I help comealongside these young men and
help them in their journey?
Fast forward, the other twostories.
I met a woman, got married as aChristian, but somehow she ended
up in an abusive relationship.
To try and cope with that, shejust she just went to she
(03:28):
started drinking just to getsleep.
But before she realized that sheneeded more quantity to get
sleep, more quantity to getsleep, until she was really
hooked.
She couldn't go to bed withoutwithout drinking.
So she ended up addicted.
And then the last story was of aChristian leader who just went
(03:50):
out partying, started work, hadmoney, went out with friends,
and said that he actually justlagged alcohol.
And so before he realized he wasdrinking more and more and more
and more and more, it was kindof something in his body that
just got hooked.
And as I, all these four storiesfor me helped me to realize that
(04:12):
there's a problem.
But as a pastor started to askthe question, what does a leader
need to do to help those who arewho know the Lord, who love the
Lord, um, but are strugglingwith an addiction?
Is it that they're notChristians?
I don't think so.
I think there's a big dichotomy.
Uh there's a big space.
(04:33):
What's the place of faith andtrusting in the Lord and being
born again on one side?
And what is the place of medicaltreatment, the psychology, uh,
psychiatrists, and all that incoming along?
And I saw that people tend to goto extremes in one side.
People just say pray, and someof that is very, very important
(04:55):
and very good.
People need a restoredrelationship with God and they
need to be helped.
Um, that begins it with the HolySpirit and with the gospel.
People make progress.
But on the other side, I thinkuh some were given medical
treatment and all that.
Uh one without the other, had alot of shortfalls.
(05:20):
And so that's what I'm digging.
What's the interface of trustingin the Lord, knowing he's your
savior, seeking to love God andserve him as a child of God who
knows the gospel?
And how do you come alongside?
What's part part dietpsychiatry, psychologist, and
all that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
It's a whole kind of disease, addiction inside of it.
Exactly.
Um, I mean let's just roleplayit.
Just imagine that I'm coming toyou and uh and I'm opening up
about a struggle in with porn.
You know, how how would you playthe conversation out?
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Well when it comes to addiction, it is very
important to understand theperson and their circumstances
first.
So um an addict is verysensitive.
They are very much alert, theywant to protect their addiction,
(06:22):
especially if they don't want todeal with it.
They might even know that thereare problems, they are
struggling, but they don't wantto acknowledge that this is the
problem, whether it's alcohol orseg or or sexual addiction,
that's that's what is affectingtheir marriage because they are
watching porn and all this.
So they will do everything toprotect that.
So you don't want the moment youtry to address that first,
(06:44):
they'll protect it.
So ask the question Yeah, what'shappening?
Um, why do you think that ishappening?
What do you think is causingthat?
Uh, what do you need?
What do you think you need?
And and as you ask, let them letthem begin opening up.
And and as the relationshipgoes, they trust you and they
(07:05):
begin to be more vulnerable andmore vulnerable and begin to
allow you into their space.
And so trust is very important,relationship is very important,
and so ask questions that bringsyou into their space and
therefore can end up telling,you know what?
I'm going through a divorce.
Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
You're going to right, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, then that might be one of the things.
Exactly.
Or, you know what?
I just have this hyper desirefor women, and and I I just
can't control it.
And then you get, okay, you youthey are coming now, they are
vulnerable.
And you you can then begin to soask questions, hear what's
happening in the environment.
(07:46):
Is it a biological problem?
Is it a social problem?
Is it a psychological problem?
Is it the environment in whichthey grew up?
Were they abused?
Because trauma is also anothercause.
Were they abused growing up?
What are the causes?
So just understand theenvironment by asking questions,
show that you are listening.
Do a lot of listening thantalking with addicts.
SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
I I was you you generalized a moment ago in that
the young adults in the church,the predominant problem was
alcohol.
Whereas amongst the clergy, inyour experience, it was a bigger
issue with porn.
Um I I was a little surpr Oh, umif you want to just Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, I I think uh look into history, uh power.
I think as a in in the Africancontext, in the Zimbabwean
context, um the pastor holdsvery much a lot of influence on
their congregations.
So you have a lot of power, umand and people look up to you.
(08:54):
Everyone wants to be associatedwith power.
Um and so I think the devil,look into the Bible, how many,
how many leaders, uh, even Davidhimself, um it was sexual
resistance for exactly, exactly.
Solomon had thousand wives, thenhis heart ended up uh going
astray.
(09:15):
I think the devil power womenand and and and and and that is
is a very dangerous atmospherewithin the church that the devil
harnesses to pull people down.
But I think also it's a realstruggle um for uh when you are
(09:35):
in marriage and in ministry, umsex is a big problem that we
need to talk about.
It's not only within thecongregants, but also even
within the leadership ofchurches, and I think it needs
to be uh spoken into, addressed,and helped.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Um what do the pastors do that makes it worse?
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
Well I think um it would be interesting for to do a
research on that, to say whatwhat are the drivers?
Um but in Africa I think youhave pastors who are overworked,
pastors who are bent out, uh,one pastor mostly for a church,
(10:26):
sometimes two, three churches.
Um, a lack of accountability, asyou do that, there aren't many
people around you to say, hey,what's happening with you?
How can I come alongside?
So who disciples the pastor, whopastors the pastor, kind of
question.
And and I think that creates adangerous environment where you
(10:48):
are kind of at the top there andno one no one really to hold you
accountable.
Um and when you burn out, youlose God.
When you you find a copingmechanism, and a lot of people
addiction has to do with copingin a broken world.
Uh sin brings about distorteddesires.
(11:10):
And and when we deal with thosedistorted desires, rather than
running to God who who restoresus in a holistic way, spiritual,
mental, relational, emotional,we run to quick fixes.
So I don't think so.
I think it's it's trying to copewith the pressures of ministry,
with the pressures of life aspastors, maybe even their
(11:33):
marriages.
Believe you me, marriages arestruggling.
There's a high rate of divorceeven in Zimbabwe.
And and ever since COVID, thathas risen.
And we have seen a lot ofpastors committing suicide,
which means there are a lot ofpressures working against
pastors.
And I think coping mechanism inthat brokenness of the world and
(11:54):
facing that, they don't haveanyone sometimes to talk to.
I appreciate Australia here.
You have counselors for pastorsand you have mentorship programs
for pastors.
That's very, very important.
But in Africa, we don't havethat.
I looked for a mentor.
Three of them said, What isthat?
I don't know what that is.
Until I went to a white friendof mine in Zimbabwe who was
(12:16):
like, Oh, yeah, I can do that.
But most of my black pastorfriends who are older than me,
they were asking me, that hasnever been done to me.
I don't know how to do that.
So you realize that there's avacuum, especially in the
African context, where seniorpastors, mentor young pastors,
it's it's not it's not common.
And so, what's the end result?
(12:36):
You have these people committingsuicide um at the end because no
one has helped.
But it begins with an addictionin different ways, in different
ways, until they it leads tothat.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
The story you told at the beginning of um uh the
woman who was going through themarriage breakdown.
And um, I'm just thinking aboutthat and thinking that actually
there was something going wrongin my life that prompted me into
this unhelpful pattern ofbehavior.
Do you want to speak to that?
I mean, or is it are some of ourissues coming out of trauma in
(13:10):
the past?
Yeah.
Or the present.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
Um so in the brokenness of in the world
because of sin, um, what I couldsee there was uh a lack of
discipleship.
I think that's one other realproblem we have in our context
in Zimbabwe.
Because we have we are you havea pastor who is trying to
(13:35):
shepherd a whole congregation bythemselves, you can't be
everywhere with everyone.
And one of the my passion withministry with the apprenticeship
program is its emphasis ontraining so that you can have
multiple leaders within thecongregation and speaking the
truth in love one to another, sothat rather than depending on
(13:57):
the pastor alone, which thenoverwhelves them, you there is
congregational discipleship.
I think what this woman laggedwas other women who are also
married coming alongside her andand saying, Hey, what's
happening?
How can we help?
And also deep personalrelationships where she could be
(14:20):
vulnerable.
Remember, uh scripture saysolder teach the older women to
disciple the younger women.
That that biblical principle.
With our fast-paced culture andvery much individualized,
especially in the city, we areit's it's very easy for someone
to struggle by themselveswithout anyone to talk to.
(14:44):
And I think the church shouldreally be intentional to fight
for home group fellowship,encouraging people to meet, not
just a small, it's in smallgroups, but even one-on-one,
where people can grow deep,personal, vulnerable, and they
can be vulnerable with eachother so that you can really
hear what's really happening.
(15:04):
If she had that, then it couldhave helped, I think, to provide
social capital, supportivesystems for her to flourish and
see how to deal with this.
I think some of it was reallypolice case.
The end case scenario which gother to really get help is that
(15:26):
the guy released the dogs onher.
And she showed me the scarswhere the dogs attacked the
dogs.
Exactly.
The man abused her to that levelwhere he released dogs on her.
And she showed me the scars.
I could not believe it.
And I was like, I was in tearsas I was listening to her.
And that's the level of abuse,but she had no one.
(15:48):
She spoke to a pastor, and thepastor said, Let's pray, which
is the other extreme.
But I think it's a police case.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
He didn't cause the alarm.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
You didn't go to the police.
You didn't go to the police, youdidn't go to a psychiatrist.
He just said, Let's pray, I'llpray for you.
The Lord will save him, you'llcome to salvation and all that.
But it's God saves at his time.
She's in a place where she needsmore than just prayer.
She needs, she needs the policeto come in.
You need to go to a sarcastic.
(16:16):
Why is she remaining in that?
She had traumatic experiences inchildhood.
For her, she has she hasnormalized this life.
And for her, it's okay.
Maybe I did something wrong.
I need, I need to endure, I needto pray.
She was telling me how she wouldfast for days.
I think if there wereintentional discipleship in that
church, that could have reallyhelped her.
(16:38):
And people could have known whatwas happening in her.
And if the pastor, when he hadher body, he did not only say
pray, but he had also gone intoone under the ministry.
Lawyers in the church would havesaid, please, this is a this is
a case.
I think as pastors, we need toharness also the various skills
(16:59):
and understanding.
Uh, let's know the Bible, let'sknow the gospel, let's preach
the gospel.
It saves, it transforms, but weneed to harness the various
skills that God enriches hisbody with.
Lawyers, psychiatrists, medicalpeople to come alongside all
these means.
Addiction is a complex thing.
There's medical issues withinthe makeup of a person.
(17:22):
There are social factors thatcome from the brokenness in
terms of family.
If it is young adults, we arerealizing that even in the
schools they have come from.
You can also think thebrokenness in Zimbabwe,
unemployment, which is asocio-economic issue.
People are struggling to copewith that.
All these factors, you cannotdeal with them alone as a pastor
(17:44):
and be speaking to all that.
You're not an expert in allthat.
You need you need to harness allthe various gifts that God has
brought in the church and beable, as you bring repentance,
also harness those who can bringtheir expertise in various ways.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
How are you thinking about um addiction as a disease
as well as a sin?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
It's a case-by-case scenario, uh, Dominic.
Um the more you the more you dosomething, it it has mental
effect where neurons develop.
Like just like reading, yourbrain is a muscle.
(18:29):
Uh the more you uh you read, themore you read, different
networks develop in your brainthat help you to to grow your
capacity in terms of reading anddoing things faster because of
that repetition.
It is the same thing thathappens.
So some people, because of theway they are made up, they drink
a bottle, they're okay, theydrink 20, they will they never
(18:54):
get addicted.
But for some, uh their body,their tolerance level is higher.
So they can drink 20.
Next, they need 40 to fill thesame level, their body responds
differently.
And it is that makeup that as apastor, you need to say, hey,
how about you?
Have you gone to the doctor?
Because they are experts whounderstand how our bodies
(19:14):
respond to things differently.
You might take pain medication,you will never get addicted to
them.
Someone might take painmedication and suddenly they
just want to keep taking it.
Why do you respond that way andthat one doesn't respond that
way?
They're made differently.
So it is that recognition thatwe are all different and respond
to things differently.
(19:35):
One might lead another in adifferent path than another.
And it's it is that diversitythat God has brought as a good
thing in his church, but thatalso creates interdependence
where we need to help each otherand walk alongside each other.
That's why I'm a fan oftraining, but also even
discipleship as the buildingblock of that.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
Uh, what about the addict and lies?
Um, yeah.
Uh, I mean, because I mean, youuh you think as you invest in
someone's life as a pastor, andif you feel like they're telling
you the truth, then you feelprepared to keep investing on
that.
But if you feel like they'remessing with you, yeah, then you
(20:20):
think, am I wasting my time withyou?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, Dominic.
The There are various levelsthat an addict goes through.
The contemplation, contemplationstage, which is the first stage
where basically they are stillcomfortable with it, it means
that they are not willing tochange or to do anything about
(20:45):
their addiction.
Um, if you take that person,they have drunk themselves to
stupor or they have uh taken adrug, they have overdosed, you
take them to a rehab and you youget them treated, as long as
they feel they're okay, they'lldo it again.
(21:07):
And even if afterwards you tryto speak to them, this is where
lies come in.
They want to protect this thingbecause they still enjoy it,
they still like it.
And so they'll um they will lieto go to make sure that they
will get back to it.
However, the next stage, whichis now they fall face down.
(21:28):
So in Alcoholic Anonymous,they'll tell you that as long as
someone does not feel like theyneed help, leave them.
Let them let them do until theyfall face down, which they call
rock bottom, and they themselvessay, I need help.
And this is what got me toreally relate it to the
(21:51):
Christian faith.
It's like someone who is at thebottom, at the worst of their
life, and they're saying, God, Ineed you.
They are willing to receiveexternal help.
That is the first step.
Once that is, then they say, Youcan now come along them.
The other prize before they getthere, provide help, but not
(22:15):
much.
Uh, but when they fall face downand they're saying they are
willing to receive externalhelp, now come alongside them
and begin providing help.
Such a person, yes, they theywill lie maybe when they
relapse, but they are more tocover up the shape.
Exactly.
But they are more it's mainlybecause they are ashamed, they
(22:36):
don't want to disappoint you.
They have made progress, butthen they relapse.
Their lying is not because theywant this thing.
Because remember, they have beenrigid rock bottom.
So they want help.
They know they need help.
You have come alongside them,you are now helping them, they
are making progress.
Before they get rock bottom,they'll lie because they want
they enjoy it, they areprotecting it.
But once they begin recovery,when they relapse, they will lie
(23:01):
not because they want to protectit, but because they are
ashamed.
Oh, he helped me so much.
And here's what I've done.
And I have a young man whohappened that a couple weeks
ago, and he was lying, ah no,I'm I'm okay and all that.
But you can tell when you knowyour person and you are working
with them.
And I was like, hey, you'reminimizing it.
Exactly.
I was like, no, it's okay.
(23:22):
If you have had a bottle, if youhave just tell me and we can
start again.
They have been rejected manytimes.
And I've seen it in our in ourchurch.
People say, This is whathappened.
No, these ones is their life,let them be.
And so people have given up onpeople.
And I think as pastors, like thesow of the seed, we throw the
(23:45):
seed, which is the gospel.
We never give up on people.
We keep loving them, but wealways try and find others to
help in different ways.
And I want to say the lies workout.
Is it because they arecomfortable, they want to
protect it, or is it becausethey are ashamed they've let you
down and they don't want you tobe disappointed and and and
(24:06):
therefore reject them.
If always say, I'm here, itdoesn't matter.
Uh call me, let me know, betruthful with me, and don't be
judgmental on them.
If you say anything that showslike you are judging them, they
close up and they'll never theywill never open again.
So you wouldn't want that tohappen in gospel ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
I got two thoughts rolling around in my head.
One is the I mean the thetherapeutic side says um it's a
an addiction and somebody willrelapse and the Bible side says
um no one who continues in sin,uh one John.
(24:56):
One John, how do you how do youhelp me there?
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Well, I think the big question to ask is um the
continuity, is it deliberate oris it a struggle?
I think when when it is the oneJohn, the continuing sin,
there's no fighting.
Someone is enjoying it, they'recomfortable in it.
You need to share the gospel,help them to come to repentance
(25:22):
and to the serving knowledge ofChrist.
So, with such a person, I'llshare the gospel with the hope
that I'm helping them to seethat they are enslaved, they
they think they are controllingthis, but this thing is
controlling them, and they needthe uh they need Christ to set
them free.
That's the first step they need.
(25:42):
And then they'll be able tofight it with the help of God
through his word and the HolySpirit and the community of
believers, all of them workingtogether, Ephesians 4 11 to 16.
But if if they are struggling, Iwant them to not give up on
struggle, on, on fighting it.
I want them to say, you knowwhat?
(26:03):
You are struggling with alcohol,you are struggling with porn.
You know, someone alsostruggling with with lying.
Some people just some peoplegossip.
Exactly.
They gossip a lot.
And every time you try, tomorrowthey gossip, they go, they they
have this propensity to gossip.
(26:25):
Some people are workaholics,they just can't stop.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
We've all got addictions to different sins.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
That's what I'm trying to say.
You know what?
Keep fighting it.
We are all fighting differentdemons or feeding in the car or
whatever.
Exactly, something like that.
And and you need to fight this.
Anger.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And God helps us.
It's a journey, it's not it'snot a sprint, it's a marathon.
The Christian life is Godworking us to prune the old
(26:53):
self, he's transforming us, andthe these are struggles that we
have.
And so I'll take them topassages like um, make every
effort, first Peter, make everysecond Peter, make every effort
to add to goodness, kindness, tothis.
So there's a sense in which youwork out your salvation because
God is at work in you to willand to act according to his
purpose.
(27:13):
So God has already saved you, hehas given his Holy Spirit, he
has word, is working in you, butthat gives you the confidence to
work on it.
You will fall, but you riseagain, not because you are able,
but God is at work in you.
So I want them to have thatgospel hope.
And I'll say, Hey, you knowwhat?
One day this is going to end.
When Jesus comes back, he'lldeal with this.
(27:34):
So we never give up.
We keep fighting.
And believe you me, some go fiveyears and then they relapse.
But the longer they go, the lessthe desire.
And I pray that God will grow inthem the right desires over the
wrong desires.
But whether God will do that andwhen he'll do that, we don't
(27:55):
know.
So we keep them keep fighting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
Um the Reform Gospel speaks well into the culture of
brokenness.
Um and and that's really whatwe've been talking about here.
The prosperity gospel has acompletely different framework.
Um help me under I mean, and inAfrica, you've got a cr all
(28:20):
sorts of crude versions of theprosperity gospel.
Um and and my impression is thatit's even more prevalent in
Africa than it is here.
That's true.
Uh how does the prosperitygospel how is it unhelpful for
the addict?
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Remember the fourth story that I shared with you
about the young man who was aleader in his church and started
to see that he kind of enjoyeduh drinking and went on and on
and on with that.
Early on when he was struggling,he went to his pastor and he
shared with him, Pastor, I thinkI'm struggling with this.
(29:04):
But also the pastor was kind ofobserving it.
In fact, his team, music teamguys were observing it because
he would come to practice a bittipsy, and they said, Hey, this
seems to be a problem.
Uh, how about you get help?
So the pastor rightfully um camealongside him to help him.
But that's where the I think themistake we tend to do, uh,
(29:30):
especially in those circles, ornot I'll say in the in the
pending in the extremePentecostal circles.
He just said, pray, so praytogether, which was right.
Um, but then when he relapsed,he was like, You are not
trusting God enough.
You need to have more faith.
You need to have this.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
So I mean, it sounds like I remember we had a woman
join us in our church from aprosperity church.
And she'd been told there thatif you just have enough faith,
there'll be no pain inchildbirth.
Do you know?
And so that if you just have anIt's your the problem.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
Yeah, you that's though that's that's what the
pastor indirectly was saying.
You it was very legalistic.
So he ended up when I wastalking to him, he doesn't go to
church.
He said, No.
I I don't for him, it was sohurting he walked out.
It's another thing to ask, washe ever saved?
(30:22):
That's not the question we areasking.
And I don't think that's whatyou're asking.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
You're asking how this can become damaging.
And that's what happened.
It became damaging.
If the pastor had if he'd had atrue gospel.
Exactly.
I think the true gospel is thefirst step, and then from there,
harnessing the gifts that Godgives, recognizing that all
(30:46):
truth is God's truth.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Anthony, just tell us what's going on with the
church in Zimbabwe and yourtheological college in Harari.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah.
Dominic, I was listening to youruh podcast uh the other week, I
think a week or two back, uh,where you mentioned that
Spajjan's College closed inLondon and Trinity Evangelica.
I wasn't aware about that.
Chicago.
And and that got me thinking assomeone closing, or moving to
Canada.
Yeah, yeah.
(31:15):
And they're um seeing a drop interms of students.
Uh and I was thinking about myown context.
Uh, moved in into HarariTheological College.
We had 30 students two yearsago, and we and we advertised.
We just used online and uh fastforward, this is two years
later, we have 70 students.
(31:37):
You've doubled.
We have doubled.
Price God for that.
Uh and and I'm I'm thanking Godfor that.
Uh and and I think we areputting a bit of some brakes on
on that advertising because youcan't keep up with the
enrollment.
We don't have the space.
We don't have the space.
Our we have had to createfoldable doors for our classes
so that we can divide theclasses.
(31:59):
Um, we have small numbers perclass at the moment.
But in case we have big numbers,we have to open those doors and
feed 20 students.
And we have seen that thathappen.
And and and as I was thinkingabout that, yes, we have the
same challenges as Spageon andTrinity because we need fees,
and we fees will never run acollege, so you need funding and
all of that.
(32:20):
But 2009-2010, when I was heredoing student ministry, part of
the reason I went back to Africawas I learned then that the
Catholic Church had started torecruit more priests in Africa
and for the churches in theWest.
Because they could not find morepeople getting into the
(32:43):
priesthood around then.
And so I could have stayed, Igot a job here, but I could have
stayed.
But I said I want to go back,work in the student ministry,
because the church in the Westwill need Southern Africa and
South America to send pastors inthe long haul, just like the
Catholic Church was alreadyexperiencing.
But how they were going to comehere, I could see then that it
(33:07):
was it was different.
They were not going to come hereas priests, they were going to
or as pastors.
But the West wantedprofessionals.
There were people coming asdoctors, as nurses, they were
coming as engineers.
And and part of my conviction, Isaid to my friends, I'm going
(33:27):
back so that I can send ahundred more like me.
Um because I feel I had come tounderstand the gospel and and so
passionate about it.
I wanted them to come with amissional mindset and to save
the church here, hopefullybecoming pastors.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
So I think And to Zimbabwe from Zimbabwe
contributing to world mission.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
To the world mission, but differently.
SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
Churches, people going as engineers, as doctors,
but with a missional mindset,they're going to become pastors
in the West.
And believe you me, tell me thedemographies in your churches.
How many are truly Caucasian andhow many are internationals?
Um you see that what I'm talkingabout is real.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for coming andsharing with us.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Thank you, Dominic.
It's a joint.
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
Anthony Dandato has been our guest on the Pastor's
Heart today.
And uh he is, of course, theprincipal of Harare Theological
College in Zimbabwe.
And look, we have linked to theAnglican Aid uh website link.
Uh, they are raising funds foruh the Harare Theological
College.
They're also one of our Pastor'sHeart sponsors, and you can go
(34:37):
to that link and donate tosupport that work tax deductibly
from within Australia.
This is the Pastor's Heart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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