August 25, 2025 • 35 mins
The call to ministry is a call to lay down your life for others, but how do we create a well-thought-out roadmap toward pastoral perseverance - when there are external and/or internal difficulties?
How do we approach congregational conflict, criticism, unrealistic expectations or personal health, financial and family stress?
Why is pastoral friendship not optional, but essential?
Today on The Pastor’s Heart, there’s advice for pastors who feel isolated and are feeling like quitting.
Brian Croft leads Practical Shepherding in Louisville Kentucky.
Matthew Spandler Davison also lives in Louisville, serves with Practical Shepherding, and as an executive director of 20 Schemes, Church in Hard Places in Scotland as well as the preaching pastor for Redeemer Fellowship in Bardstown, Kentucky.
ChurchSuite Taster Days in Australia
Churchsuite is a Church Management Platform. Check us out at a Taster Day - Sydney October 21,22; Brisbane October 24; Canberra October 27; Melbourne October 28; Perth October 30.
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Anglican Aid
Anglican Aid - To find out more about how to support Anglican Aid.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
pastoral perseverance .
How do we hold on when we feellike letting go?
Brian croft and matthewspandler davison are our guests.
It is the pastor's heart, it'sdominic steel and we are talking
about staying, enduring andthriving.
The call to ministry, it's acall to lay down one's life for
others.
But how do we create awell-thought-out roadmap towards
(00:31):
pastoral perseverance?
Today we're facing the barriersto perseverance with two
leaders in that field.
Brian Croft leads PracticalShepherding in Louisville,
kentucky, and MatthewSpandler-Davison he also lives
in Louisville, he's withPractical Shepherding and also
serves as Executive Director of20 Schemes churches in hard
places in Scotland.
(00:51):
Between them there's a stack ofbooks and articles.
They're on a speaking tour ofAustralia and New Zealand and
this Saturday speaking in NewZealand on persevering in
ministry, and we've got themhere to talk to them about that.
Brian, thanks for coming in and, if I could start with you,
(01:13):
your pastor's heart for pastorswho are struggling to persevere.
It really has its origins in amoment when you were struggling
to persevere.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Very much Thanks for having me.
And yeah, I was a pastor for 25years and did eight years of
associate pastor work in somereally hard ministry contexts.
Then I went to be the leadpastor of a Baptist church in
Louisville, Kentucky, where Istill live, and I was the pastor
there for 17 years.
But I went into a church that Iwas told would be difficult.
But I didn't realize howdifficult it would be the first
(01:42):
five years.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I was there.
Why did you go to a church whenthey said I'm just imagining it
?
What's my pitch to get you, asa pastor, to come?
This is going to be hard.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, the committee trying to hire me didn't tell me
that.
It was people around who knewthe reputation of the church.
That came to me concerned.
But it even became harder thanwe thought.
So there were three differentattempts to fire me.
In the first five years at thechurch there were threats of
violence against me by churchmembers.
The pastoral search team thathired me had all left the church
(02:11):
within three years of me beingat the church.
I was in my early thirties afterthat five years and my health
started to tank.
I had health issues that showedup that doctors had trouble
diagnosing until they had heardabout all the stress that I had
endured the first five years ofthe church there.
So it was a very intense,difficult time and that's where
I really learned how I didn'tknow how to care for myself.
(02:34):
I didn't know how to care formy own heart and the effect that
that had on.
There was a cost to it.
But it was out of thosedifficult years in the ministry
that I really learned some ofthese principles that we talk
about in our ministry that we'reconvinced every pastor needs to
be able to not just survive butactually thrive and flourish.
And our church in year six.
(02:55):
After those five years God justturned the church and the
church flourished really for thenext decade.
So a lot of the lessons Ilearned in those really hard
years was able to not only applyfor my own life I could
hopefully thrive as a pastor butit's carried over and become
the core really of practicalshepherding.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
We'll push into those in a moment.
I was just talking to youbefore and you were telling me
we won't name this church but achurch you have been engaged
with here in Australia, andreally what a horror story that
pastor has been through.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, and it just reminded me Everywhere I travel
all over the world, and this ismy first time in Australia, and
it doesn't matter the country, Imean, he was locked out of the
building, you said for sixmonths, and running services in
the backyard.
It was a wild story.
I'd never heard such a wildstory and I hear a lot of crazy
stories like this just thatpastors go in and try to in a
(03:48):
sense, take on maybe a smallgroup in the church that has
held a stranglehold on a churchfor many decades.
And oftentimes pastors go inand try to do faithful ministry,
preach the gospel, try toshepherd and care for people,
and the enemy just doesn't likethat.
And it's amazing how thingshappen and that pastors
(04:08):
experience things in those verydifficult, hard places that
really no training prepares youfor.
So the need for us to knowourselves and know how to care
for ourselves, to know how ourheart is being affected, and it
is crucial to be able tocontinue and persevere.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Matthew, we've been Facebook friends for quite a
long time and I've been watchingyou go through some, watching
you from the other side of theworld and praying for you from
the other side of the world gothrough some extraordinary,
difficult personal times.
Do you want to just share someof that?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, so my perseverance story is in many
ways so different to Brian'sbecause I've had a church that's
a loving church, sweet churchthat has cared really well for
me.
So my challenge hasn't beenpersevering in a church that I
love, it's more just perseveringmyself in terms of my own
weakness and struggles withhealth battles.
So I appreciate your prayersfor certain the last three or
(05:04):
four weeks, largely because ofministry, so sicknesses that I
picked up along the way, whetherit's preaching in slums outside
of Cuba or picking up differentparents' sites and so forth.
I can't even remember the nameof it, but wild and terrible
sickness yeah so I was in Cubaand preaching outside in a slum
(05:25):
in havana, cuba, a little over ayear ago and came home very
sick actually got diagnosed withdysentery.
I didn't believe that was stilla thing anymore, but apparently
it is in cuba.
Uh, so, dysentery and a fewother bacterial infections, but
the the result of that was uh, Imean I didn't know if you were
going to leave.
Yeah, no, we didn't know, wedidn't either yeah, so there was
always in icu for many nightsand, um yeah, just feeling my
(05:47):
life slipping away and beingable to hold on, to hope in in
the midst of that to take us towhat was going on in your head
and your heart and as I mean, Iguess you're coming in and out
of consciousness and stuff likethat yeah, I mean it was, and
you probably spent some timeprocessing it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, very much.
What was God?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
doing.
Yeah, I mean, so you get takenfrom a hospital and you wake up
in the emergency room andthey're doing CPR on you.
I mean it's a terrifyingexperience, and then you don't
know if you're going to make itout and I was by myself.
I was in another place, anothercountry, another city, my wife
had to fly in and, uh, justfeeling very, very much alone in
those moments.
But but I think what, whatstruck me and what was
(06:28):
comforting to me, that, eventhough this was terrifying and I
felt alone, I did feel a senseof you know, lord, if this is it
, I'm, I'm okay with that.
Um, you know, you don't know howyou're gonna deal with your
last moments.
You don't know how you're goingto deal with your last moments.
You don't know how you're goingto respond in those seconds
when it's touch and go.
But the faith, that's really agood test of our faith and that
(06:51):
was surprisingly reassuring tome, that the Lord in that moment
not only was with me but wasenough and that kind of allowed
me to press on.
So, as Paul says, to live isChrist, die is gain, and some of
those moments, in a verytangible way, I felt a bit of
that that allowed me to keepfighting but also to keep
(07:15):
trusting the Lord.
I think it's so much harder onmy wife and my church and people
that felt very uncertain aboutwhat might happen beyond that, I
mean.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was kind of taken aback and shocked by some of
these photos of you with tubesand all that kind of thing on
Facebook and then, as life does,life moved on and you dropped
out of my consciousness thatkind of thing.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But tell us about the journey back, and the journey
back with god and I meanlamentations has been a big part
of your, your life there yeah,so actually a couple years prior
to that I lost my voice, so Iwas in a car accident and had to
have a surgery on my spinalcord and it severed the nerve
ending to my vocal cord, so myvocal cord is paralyzed.
(08:06):
So just prior to that I wasdealing with and you're a
preacher- and I was a preacher.
I was waking up from thatsurgery without a voice and
wondering what use is a preacheror a pastor who can't speak or
preach?
And that experience really ledme to, I think, a dark place of
(08:27):
despair, discouragement, maybedepression through that, because
my whole world felt like it wascollapsing and I had no control
and no ability to get myselfback up again.
And that's what led me toLamentations, lamentations three
.
I was actually preachingthrough Lamentations during that
season, but Lamentations three,you got actually preaching
through Lamentations during thatseason.
But Lamentations 3, you've gotJeremiah seeing his whole world
(08:47):
collapsed, the city beingransacked, the nation being
taken into exile, and him givingvoice to the pain, the trauma,
the anguish, the uncertainty.
And then he says all hope isgone.
But then, in the middle ofLamentations 3, but my hope is
in the Lord, whose steadfastlove endures forever and His
(09:08):
mercies are new every morning.
That he is my portion and togreat is His faithfulness.
And just being reminded of thatas I'm going through what felt
like the most horrific anduncertain of trials, just
reminding myself that my hopeisn't in the fact, my hope isn't
in my healing, my hope isn't inmy healing, my hope isn't in my
voice, my hope isn't in myministry.
My hope isn't in my ability topreach.
(09:30):
I get great joy out of allthose things, but my hope is in
the steadfast love of the Lord,which endures forever.
And I needed to be reminded ofthat because even for those of
us in ministry, we can forgetwhere our hope, our true hope,
really lies.
We can make our ministryministry.
We can forget where our hope,our true hope, really lies.
We can make our ministry intoour life.
It's, it becomes everything,and you take it away and you
realize, you know the love, thelove of the Lord endures forever
(09:52):
and that's where our hope lies.
And we're better.
We're better ministers, pastors, preachers every time we get
reminded of that.
So so that kind of prepared mefor what was the storm that was
on the horizon, which was justlying in the ICU bed.
And the death of your dad, kindof coming up Dad dying in the
midst of that from COVID andjust yeah.
(10:12):
So I truly felt my whole worldwas crashing down around me.
But the one thing that neverchanged, I never doubted, was
both the love of the Lord,certainly the love of my family,
but also the church.
The way that church cared forme and my family through that
was so sweet.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Brian, you were watching because you're a mate
of Matthew's.
You were watching him walkthrough all of this and talking
to him about it at the time.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, I'm not sure if you're trying to make me cry,
but every time I talk about this, though it's hard, it takes me
back, me cry, but, um, uh, everytime I talk about this, though
it's it's hard, it takes me back.
When I hear him talk about it,it kind of stirs those, uh,
those affections and emotionsagain.
To watch your friend walkthrough all this stuff which I
was around for, uh, all of itand um, and it was incredibly
difficult to watch.
(10:57):
And yet, um, to watch somebodyyou love deeply go through so
much just kind of suffering overand over again and the things
that again, as he's talkingabout, I mean a preacher losing
his voice, I mean that's.
I don't think anybody cananticipate what that would be
like until you face it.
And then to watch him perseverein the midst of all of that and
(11:19):
have a strong faith and yet beable to express honestly his
questioning and just doesn'tunderstand these things.
To look back on those lastcouple of years and all that
he's been through In fact I'veshared with him on numerous
occasions I think that God isuniquely using him now, simply
because of the way he embracedhis weakness and Christ rose up
(11:44):
strong, and I think peopleexperience that when he talks
about these things now,certainly when he speaks and
speaks to other pastors andchallenges and encourages them
to press on even in the midst offacing suffering.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Let's press into that issue of being weak and being
vulnerable in our preaching andteaching, and I'll just put a
thought out and then get both ofyou to react to it.
I think, as I've done thepreaching and teaching, my hunch
is that I've been morevulnerable in the pulpit than
(12:20):
many of my peers many of mypeers, and particularly recently
, last five, eight, ten yearsbut I've been able to do that
from a position of, if you like,strength, in that I've got a
leadership team that's unitedbehind me here.
I'm feeling safe, all of thatkind of thing.
(12:41):
There was a point I don't know,2010, 11, that kind of time
when our church was really goingthrough a really divided season
and I kind of knew that inorder to be effective as a
minister of Christ Jesus, Ineeded to be sharing what God
(13:01):
was doing in my life.
And yet I didn't want to bevulnerable in the pulpit when I
felt like there were people whowere out there critical of me.
And so can you just talk aboutthat?
I'll maybe start with you,brian.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, sure, yeah, I certainly felt that in the early
years of my own ministry, whenyou have people who are
literally trying to remove youas pastor.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, you don't want to say I'm weak in any area.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You do not.
I mean just be.
It would fuel the fire it wouldgive them.
It's not a safe environment tobe vulnerable.
And so I remember beingchallenged in that, just
struggling, feeling the tensionyou just articulated I and so I
remember being challenged inthat, just struggling, feeling
the tension you just articulated.
I need to be able to be myselfand be vulnerable, and yet a
fear of just anything I saybeing weaponized against me.
(13:45):
What I eventually learned andcertainly grew to be able to
embrace this more.
I think it's very important andhelpful and an important part of
our ministry to be open andhonest and vulnerable to the
degree that we feel comfortabledoing.
I'm convinced that becausepastors so often put a facade
that they don't struggle likeeverybody else, even
(14:07):
unintentionally at times, I'mconvinced that our congregations
don't think that the pastorstruggles like they do unless we
remind them that we do so.
I think the need to bevulnerable is really important.
Otherwise the congregationthinks that we're separated from
them in that way and I think itopens up all kinds of ministry.
When we're vulnerable, youstand up and say that you battle
(14:27):
anxiety issues as a pastor andsomebody in the congregation had
no idea they may show up atyour office the next week going.
I actually think I can talk tohim about this in a way.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I didn't, and I think it just blows wide open the
doors of ministry that exists,that I don't think does exist,
when we put on this facade likewe have it all together and we
don't struggle like they do.
What about the problem of, Imean, I remember being
(14:57):
vulnerable about a sin, aboutpride, and really somebody
saying, I mean it was a longtime ago, well, you should
resign, do you?
Know, that's the worst of all,do you know?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, I think you have to be willing to take a
risk.
I mean, there's really not theability.
You can't be vulnerable withoutbeing willing to take a risk,
and I think that's the tensionyou feel is matter of fact, I've
heard pastors who will be openand vulnerable in a sermon,
share maybe a personal story,and they'll actually have a
church member say to them I feellike I know more about you more
(15:30):
than I want to know about you,and there's that tension that
some people don't want to knowtheir pastor is like them.
They almost want to put us on apedestal, and so I think you
have to realize the tensionexists, but I would certainly
argue the risk is worth it and Ithink also to do it in
appropriate ways.
I think pastors think it's gotto be an all or nothing.
(15:52):
I either have to lay out all mysins in front of you and tell
everybody about it, or I don'ttell you anything about them.
And what I encourage pastors todo is look within your context,
to whatever level you'recomfortable.
Then you can share vulnerablethings to some degree that
you're comfortable doing.
That can be effective andhelpful in your ministry without
telling everybody everythingthat you're struggling with all
(16:15):
the time and I think thatbalance is important, matthew.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Yes, I do think obviously this could be a level
of caution.
We know of men who are verygifted pastors and faithful
leaders who opened up about aparticular challenge and it was
weaponized against them bycertain individuals or groups in
the church and they ended uphaving to leave the church
because of it.
So you obviously have a levelof discernment and caution about
(16:39):
who you're vulnerable with.
But I would say, if you're notat the stage yet in your
ministry where you can bevulnerable, truly vulnerable
from the pulpit, you've at leastgot to be vulnerable somewhere.
The tendency, the danger, isthat we hide.
We hide what we're strugglingwith, we hide what we're
wrestling with.
We hide what we're strugglingwith.
We hide what we're wrestlingwith, we hide what we're truly
feeling and I think thatactually makes you more
(16:59):
vulnerable uh to uh, to, tofalling away from, to to um,
giving up, to failing topersevere because you're not
getting the help and the supportand the prayer, uh, that you're
going to need to, to, to playthe long game in ministry.
So if you can't be vulnerablein your pulpit or to your own
congregation, at least have somemen or some people in your life
that you can feel that you canbe truly open with and seek good
counsel and wisdom from you'vetalked about um three men carrie
(17:23):
, ward and marshman.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Tell us about them yeah, so, so.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So when you talk about perseverance, there are
really three things that I thinkpeople pastors particularly
struggle with when it comes toperseverance.
One is opposition that you guyshave faced in in your ministry.
Where can I persevere in themidst of this opposition, taking
this weakness, which is whatI've struggled with physical
weakness, personal weakness,having to confront that and seek
the support in doing so?
I think the third one isloneliness, and often pastors
(17:50):
are very lonely, insecure.
Open that up for me.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
So I think sometimes pastors struggle to make good
friends, to know how to havegood friends in their life,
particularly when they Lots ofco-collaborators.
Yeah, lots of people in life.
But it's a strange profession,if you want to call it a
profession, where the peopleclosest to you in your life are
also the ones that you'reaccountable to.
And they're accountable to youin terms of the people that you
(18:16):
know to and they're accountableto you In terms of the people
that you know they're going tobe open to you about some of
their biggest struggles and theyexpect you to speak into it.
But if you're open to themabout yours, then all of a
sudden that becomes complicated.
And so you know, if you have aday job in an office somewhere
and the people working next toyou aren't going to open up
about all their life strugglesimmediately or think that you
(18:37):
need to have an opinion about it, and neither could they fire
you if you did have an opinionabout it.
And so something about ministry,where we are naturally on guard
.
But that could, if we're notcareful, lead to a place where
we isolate ourselves, becomelonely, feeling insecure.
The longer we're in ministrysometimes, the more insecure we
can feel because of ministry.
Tell me about that.
The longer we're in ministrysometimes, the more insecure we
(18:57):
can feel because of ministry.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Tell me about that, the longer we're in ministry,
the more insecure we can feel.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Because you look behind and there's wreckage of
lost friendships along the way.
People that you open up to areopened up to you and they've
left, they've walked away,they've moved away and you're
still standing and you're stillthere and you look back and
begin to wonder who are my truefriends?
Who are the people going to bewith me for the long haul?
(19:23):
Who are the ones going to fightfor me and not turn against me?
And I think a lot of pastorsreally struggle to develop close
, meaningful, long-lastingfriendships.
So the the William Carey storyis you know, he goes, goes on
the mission field, but he goesand he takes with him two
brothers, two good friends ofhis.
One is a school teacher, one isa printer.
(19:44):
And the three of them have thiscovenant together where they
are basically going to sacrificeeverything for each other, are
going to fight for each other,are going to be loyal to each
other.
So when opposition comesagainst them which it did on the
mission field, often from othermissionaries these three men
stood firm together, encourageeach other, pray for each other
and they're able to persevereand do great ministry side by
(20:06):
side.
I think every pastor has to have.
Who are those men in my life.
They may not be yet men in yourown church.
Over time, you'd hope that theywould be people in your own
congregation who are going to bethose who are, who're going to
lovingly walk with you throughthrough struggle, through trial,
um, and celebrate with you thejoys of life as well, um.
But if you're not activelypursuing it and if you're not
(20:26):
that yourself, others.
So we have to be good friendsto others as well and learn how
to do that, uh and so, yeah.
So the isolation and insecurityin ministry is often what leads
many men to walk away from thechurch of a ministry altogether,
just because it becomes reallypainful.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Can I just get you to push into that wreckage of
friendships line?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Sure, yeah, I agree.
In fact it's ideal if you canfind some of those friendships
in your church.
I'll push back and say I thinkit's harder, it's rare even.
I think those kinds offriendships that Matthew's
articulating really come fromother pastors outside your own
church and you form thesefriendships with other men that
I think that's what helps thecomplexity Matthew's talking
(21:09):
about gets eliminated a bit whenyou have a pastor who is your
friend.
You're not serving together inthe same church.
It's totally based onfriendship and yet a pastor
understands what a pastor goesthrough.
So I believe pastoral friendshipis really kind of the forgotten
piece of a persevering ministry, of having a long ministry.
I know very few pastors thatare able to do ministry a long
(21:31):
time without some kind of close,personal, safe friendship that
knows what it's like to be youand go through what you go
through and to foster thatministry relationship,
especially among men and fellowelders and pastors in the church
, can be very transactional.
We can do a ton of ministrytogether and yet the
(21:52):
relationship remainstransactional.
We have a relationship becauseof all this ministry we do in
our church remains transaction.
We, we, we have a relationshipbecause of all this ministry we
do in our church and so I'll getyou know.
I'll get asked to come into meetwith a group of elders and just
kind of team building typeconversations and things, and
they're kind of shocked by whatI start with that they're
usually expect me to come in andsay okay, so how how many hours
do you pray or how you know,how much are you reading the
(22:14):
Bible together?
And those and of course thoseare important things.
I'll usually start by sayingare you all friends?
Do you all like each other?
Do you spend time with eachother outside of doing ministry
and just fostering thatrelationship of trust?
Because I'm convinced, whenhard things come, when
disagreements come among leaders, and in the same church
(22:34):
particularly, and in the samechurch particularly, the thing
that's going to help you getthrough that is the fact that
you have a friendship, anorganic trust of each other and
a love for each other.
That gives you, each other, thebenefit of the doubt in hard
conversations and that's reallywhere the leaders of a church
come together.
And likewise, when you havepastor friends outside your own
(22:54):
church, that becomes a very, Ithink, safe place to be open and
vulnerable and help and alsosomeone outside the church to
come in and be able to care foryou if need be.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Do you find people say I'm just spending, as a
pastor, all my relational timewith the people that I'm
shepherding, and now I'm full.
I just want to go off and be anintrovert.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't want to so true.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay, doctor, what's your prescription?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, I can really relate to what you're saying
because I'm an extrovert so Iloved being with people and had
a high capacity for that for alot of years.
So my heart goes out to theintroverts, who you know, who
who continue trying to lovetheir folks but maybe don't have
as much capacity to be able todo that.
And one of the things that hitme is several years ago, all of
a sudden I found myself havinglimited capacity.
(23:52):
I could I could only do that somuch, even as an extrovert
getting older and just all theyears of ministry.
And what I think the solutionis is to real.
A part of caring for our ownheart is to recognize our
humanity, our limitations thoseare okay, that's how God made us
and to do what we can to bewith people to the level we
can't push ourselves to do that,but how we care for our own
(24:15):
soul, that go to that quietstill.
I think silence and stillness isone of the most important
disciplines in a pastor's lifeand doing the things that
actually fills up the cup of oursoul.
So we actually have somethingto pour out for people.
Most pastors are functioning onempty and they're trying to
pour out from a place wherethere's nothing and they're
trying to pour out from a placewhere there's nothing, so caring
(24:35):
for our own soul and our ownheart doing those things, and a
lot of times it's going off andbeing alone and by ourselves,
away from people, just alonewith the Lord.
There's so many beautifulexamples in the Gospels of how
(24:57):
the Gospel writers highlight howJesus in a moment dismissed the
crowds, sent his disciplesahead and went to the mountain
to be alone and pray and wasthere for an extended amount of
time.
I find it interesting how thegospel writers actually
highlight that he's been, he'sthere for a limp, for a certain
amount of time.
It's not quick, it's, it's slowand and I think it's it's a
model for us, that on how wecare for ourselves as well.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I'm just trying to reflectively listen to your
prescription.
I think you're saying less timein ministry, more time alone
with God and more timedeveloping friendships with
other pastors.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And a balance of all of those things.
I think that's the key is whenwe want to work hard in the
ministry, we want to be with ourpeople, like that's the heart
of what we do.
We got to find a way to balanceout these other things
friendship and alone time withthe Lord and having those things
as part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Okay, let's go to a word to younger Matthew from
Matthew.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
It was just even just talking about friendship.
I think sometimes, as pastorsmake the mistake of making every
interaction into a meeting,like I'm going to meet with this
friend so we can talk aboutthis Like um.
I think we just lose sight ofthat friends, so we can talk
about this like um.
I think we just lose sideeffect.
The normal friendship is justsitting and just having a chat
and just having, with no agenda,no, no meeting.
No, uh, just hanging out.
You know, I think we're uh,sometimes you feel guilty just
(26:07):
for having fun, you know, justdoing things that are fun and,
uh, entertaining and enjoyable.
I think that could belife-giving, uh in in many ways.
And and finding what?
What is that in be life-givingin many ways?
And finding what is that inyour life?
And I think I struggled withthat early on in ministry.
I was so busy and so driventhat everything had to have a
purpose in life and ministry andI realized I don't know if I am
(26:29):
a good friend and I don't knowif I know even how to have fun
anymore and just have to peelback some of those layers and
just feel okay about justswitching off and enjoying time
with other people.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I think the congregation wants you to be a
fun person who has friends doyou know?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Rather than the person you just described, and I
think perhaps all of usstruggle to be that person
because in the end, we're sodriven.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, I think perhaps all of us struggle to be
that person because in the endwe're so driven.
Yeah, I think there's perhapseven a low-key sense of guilt
about it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I want people to see me to be working all the time
see me to be and you think thatbecause you do, there's a
tension of if I come across as aslacker, there's a tension of
if I come across as a slacker,then people won't want to put
their shoulder to the wheel tohelp grow the kingdom here, and
they won't want to give ifthey're thinking I'm slack.
It's such a paradox, and so Ido feel driven to work hard, and
(27:30):
yet I end up doing things thatmake my life unsustainable.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, and often and we've talked about how some
of the physical weaknesses wefeel is often down to mental
struggles that we're having interms of stress and not being
able to switch off and rest andrelax, or feeling guilty about
taking that day off and goingfor that walk and just having
(27:54):
spending an enjoyable time withfriends and actually there's
something intentional about rest.
So rest is simply being lazyand resting but being lazy is is
just disengaging and switchingoff.
Resting is actually engaging.
As I am, I'm going tointentionally rest by doing this
to, to restore my soul, to, tostrengthen my hand, to
(28:16):
strengthen the work.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Just as we were sitting down for coffee before
we came in here, you're bothjust saying your youngest child
has graduated from high school,and I mean one of my
observations is, it was the casewhen we had teenagers at home
that rest time actually waspretty much investing in the
kids.
(28:37):
That's right, whereas now thatthey're off our hands, we've
actually got to creatively thinkabout what to do for rest time.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
You want to riff on that, brian?
That's right.
Sure, I agree, and that's beeninteresting too.
I think that pastors, whenthey'll come to me and they're
burnt out, they're depressed,and again they're depressed, and
again they're expecting somehyper-spiritual conversation
we're going to have.
I usually ask them two things.
Initially, I'll say how muchsleep do you get at night and
(29:08):
what do you do for fun?
And they have no idea why.
Those are the questions thatI'm asking initially.
But the sleep, obviously a bigpart of just our life, and the
need to take care of ourselves.
But having a hobby, havingsomething that's fun outside of
ministry having, I actuallythink this is not just okay.
I think it's essential to havethat for us to be equipped to do
(29:31):
our ministry well, and so manypastors have nothing else
outside of their own ministry.
So we have this desire to workhard.
The problem is we just work allthe time and we don't have
anything else in our life.
And the human I just think thehuman soul, the way we were
created, is to be able to havefun things and life-giving
(29:51):
things and joyful things in ourlife.
So one of the things I'mexperiencing is taking up some
new hobbies, as I have this.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah what you doing, what are your hobbies?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I have all kinds of hobbies actually.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I hope to see it.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, big sports guy, so I love watching sports and
playing sports and those kindsof things, but hiking, bike
riding, those kinds of things.
But here's one that I've gotteninto.
I'm 50 years old, turn 51, godwilling, next month, and I've
gotten into planting flowers.
Never thought that would besomething I would enjoy, but
just I'm slowing down.
Love to be outside in God'screation.
(30:23):
I'm a creative person, so it'slooking and seeing the beauty
and all of a sudden I startedfinding myself going.
I'm going to start plantingsome flowers in my house, and so
who knew?
But I get a lot of joy in that.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I have got into cooking with Chet GPT.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
But what I would.
There's so many importantthings.
I think that's good for my soul.
That then rejuvenates me to godo what God's called me to.
And I think the deception ispastors think I'll be most
productive if I just do this allthe time, and I just think it's
a deception.
I think what if you care foryour, take time to care for
yourself?
I think that's what when I seeJesus go to the mountain to pray
(31:02):
and be alone with the Fatherand rest.
I think he knew something wedidn't that.
What if we're more useful tothe Lord after we've actually
done things like that Instead ofthinking?
Working all the time is how weserve the lord best.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Matthew mental health .
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Um just take me there um, I'm not in the flower
planting phase of my life yet,but just wait might get there
eventually um, uh, yeah, it is.
It means in ministry there's somany uh wounds that we can carry
carry from either people who'vewounded us along the way or
struggles that we've had toendure along the way and and
(31:42):
that can play play it all on onyour own mental health in terms
of sleeplessness.
So I've struggled with insomniamyself, even following some of
the the medical experience I'vehad.
There's a level of trauma, youknow, waking up and thinking am
I still in that ICU unit?
Do I still hear those beepsfrom that?
They still come to you, you hearthem yeah yeah, there's
(32:05):
particularly some moments when Iwake up in the middle of the
night, almost like some nightterrors, and that insomnia, that
sleeplessness, begins to affectyour ability to do the work
that you're called to do.
And so just taking thatseriously and getting the help
that you need and acknowledgingthat you know.
So we're talking here aboutpersevering as a pastor, but we
also got to recognize that apastor that's thriving is a
(32:28):
benefit to the whole church.
It's not just for our sake,right, it's not just for the
sake of the ministry that we'recalled to do, and so if I care
about my church, I should alsocare about my ability to
persevere as their shepherd andas their pastor as well, and
this isn't just self-serving orself-seeking.
This is ultimately what we'recalled to do as under shepherds
of the congregation the Lord hasgranted us.
So yeah, mental health talkingopenly about the struggles we
(32:51):
have, recognizing when we're notgetting the rest that we need.
If we are dealing with levelsof insecurity or struggling with
, maybe, anxiety, then justbeing open and honest about
those struggles I have so manymore questions, but we are out
of time.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Thank you very much for coming and sharing with us
today.
My guests on the Pastor's Heartare Matthew Spandler-Davison,
who lives in Louisville and he'swith Practical Shepherding and
serves as Executive Director of20 Schemes Church in Hard Places
in Scotland, and Brian Croft,who leads the Practical
Shepherding Ministry in Kentucky.
(33:31):
My name's Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart and we will look forward
to your company next Tuesdayafternoon.
pastoral perseverance .
How do we hold on when we feellike letting go?
Brian croft and matthewspandler davison are our guests.
It is the pastor's heart, it'sdominic steel and we are talking
about staying, enduring andthriving.
The call to ministry, it's acall to lay down one's life for
others.
But how do we create awell-thought-out roadmap towards
(00:31):
pastoral perseverance?
Today we're facing the barriersto perseverance with two
leaders in that field.
Brian Croft leads PracticalShepherding in Louisville,
kentucky, and MatthewSpandler-Davison he also lives
in Louisville, he's withPractical Shepherding and also
serves as Executive Director of20 Schemes churches in hard
places in Scotland.
(00:51):
Between them there's a stack ofbooks and articles.
They're on a speaking tour ofAustralia and New Zealand and
this Saturday speaking in NewZealand on persevering in
ministry, and we've got themhere to talk to them about that.
Brian, thanks for coming in and, if I could start with you,
(01:13):
your pastor's heart for pastorswho are struggling to persevere.
It really has its origins in amoment when you were struggling
to persevere.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Very much Thanks for having me.
And yeah, I was a pastor for 25years and did eight years of
associate pastor work in somereally hard ministry contexts.
Then I went to be the leadpastor of a Baptist church in
Louisville, Kentucky, where Istill live, and I was the pastor
there for 17 years.
But I went into a church that Iwas told would be difficult.
But I didn't realize howdifficult it would be the first
(01:42):
five years.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I was there.
Why did you go to a church whenthey said I'm just imagining it
?
What's my pitch to get you, asa pastor, to come?
This is going to be hard.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, the committee trying to hire me didn't tell me
that.
It was people around who knewthe reputation of the church.
That came to me concerned.
But it even became harder thanwe thought.
So there were three differentattempts to fire me.
In the first five years at thechurch there were threats of
violence against me by churchmembers.
The pastoral search team thathired me had all left the church
(02:11):
within three years of me beingat the church.
I was in my early thirties afterthat five years and my health
started to tank.
I had health issues that showedup that doctors had trouble
diagnosing until they had heardabout all the stress that I had
endured the first five years ofthe church there.
So it was a very intense,difficult time and that's where
I really learned how I didn'tknow how to care for myself.
(02:34):
I didn't know how to care formy own heart and the effect that
that had on.
There was a cost to it.
But it was out of thosedifficult years in the ministry
that I really learned some ofthese principles that we talk
about in our ministry that we'reconvinced every pastor needs to
be able to not just survive butactually thrive and flourish.
And our church in year six.
(02:55):
After those five years God justturned the church and the
church flourished really for thenext decade.
So a lot of the lessons Ilearned in those really hard
years was able to not only applyfor my own life I could
hopefully thrive as a pastor butit's carried over and become
the core really of practicalshepherding.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
We'll push into those in a moment.
I was just talking to youbefore and you were telling me
we won't name this church but achurch you have been engaged
with here in Australia, andreally what a horror story that
pastor has been through.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, and it just reminded me Everywhere I travel
all over the world, and this ismy first time in Australia, and
it doesn't matter the country, Imean, he was locked out of the
building, you said for sixmonths, and running services in
the backyard.
It was a wild story.
I'd never heard such a wildstory and I hear a lot of crazy
stories like this just thatpastors go in and try to in a
(03:48):
sense, take on maybe a smallgroup in the church that has
held a stranglehold on a churchfor many decades.
And oftentimes pastors go inand try to do faithful ministry,
preach the gospel, try toshepherd and care for people,
and the enemy just doesn't likethat.
And it's amazing how thingshappen and that pastors
(04:08):
experience things in those verydifficult, hard places that
really no training prepares youfor.
So the need for us to knowourselves and know how to care
for ourselves, to know how ourheart is being affected, and it
is crucial to be able tocontinue and persevere.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Matthew, we've been Facebook friends for quite a
long time and I've been watchingyou go through some, watching
you from the other side of theworld and praying for you from
the other side of the world gothrough some extraordinary,
difficult personal times.
Do you want to just share someof that?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, so my perseverance story is in many
ways so different to Brian'sbecause I've had a church that's
a loving church, sweet churchthat has cared really well for
me.
So my challenge hasn't beenpersevering in a church that I
love, it's more just perseveringmyself in terms of my own
weakness and struggles withhealth battles.
So I appreciate your prayersfor certain the last three or
(05:04):
four weeks, largely because ofministry, so sicknesses that I
picked up along the way, whetherit's preaching in slums outside
of Cuba or picking up differentparents' sites and so forth.
I can't even remember the nameof it, but wild and terrible
sickness yeah so I was in Cubaand preaching outside in a slum
(05:25):
in havana, cuba, a little over ayear ago and came home very
sick actually got diagnosed withdysentery.
I didn't believe that was stilla thing anymore, but apparently
it is in cuba.
Uh, so, dysentery and a fewother bacterial infections, but
the the result of that was uh, Imean I didn't know if you were
going to leave.
Yeah, no, we didn't know, wedidn't either yeah, so there was
always in icu for many nightsand, um yeah, just feeling my
(05:47):
life slipping away and beingable to hold on, to hope in in
the midst of that to take us towhat was going on in your head
and your heart and as I mean, Iguess you're coming in and out
of consciousness and stuff likethat yeah, I mean it was, and
you probably spent some timeprocessing it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, very much.
What was God?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
doing.
Yeah, I mean, so you get takenfrom a hospital and you wake up
in the emergency room andthey're doing CPR on you.
I mean it's a terrifyingexperience, and then you don't
know if you're going to make itout and I was by myself.
I was in another place, anothercountry, another city, my wife
had to fly in and, uh, justfeeling very, very much alone in
those moments.
But but I think what, whatstruck me and what was
(06:28):
comforting to me, that, eventhough this was terrifying and I
felt alone, I did feel a senseof you know, lord, if this is it
, I'm, I'm okay with that.
Um, you know, you don't know howyou're gonna deal with your
last moments.
You don't know how you're goingto deal with your last moments.
You don't know how you're goingto respond in those seconds
when it's touch and go.
But the faith, that's really agood test of our faith and that
(06:51):
was surprisingly reassuring tome, that the Lord in that moment
not only was with me but wasenough and that kind of allowed
me to press on.
So, as Paul says, to live isChrist, die is gain, and some of
those moments, in a verytangible way, I felt a bit of
that that allowed me to keepfighting but also to keep
(07:15):
trusting the Lord.
I think it's so much harder onmy wife and my church and people
that felt very uncertain aboutwhat might happen beyond that, I
mean.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was kind of taken aback and shocked by some of
these photos of you with tubesand all that kind of thing on
Facebook and then, as life does,life moved on and you dropped
out of my consciousness thatkind of thing.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But tell us about the journey back, and the journey
back with god and I meanlamentations has been a big part
of your, your life there yeah,so actually a couple years prior
to that I lost my voice, so Iwas in a car accident and had to
have a surgery on my spinalcord and it severed the nerve
ending to my vocal cord, so myvocal cord is paralyzed.
(08:06):
So just prior to that I wasdealing with and you're a
preacher- and I was a preacher.
I was waking up from thatsurgery without a voice and
wondering what use is a preacheror a pastor who can't speak or
preach?
And that experience really ledme to, I think, a dark place of
(08:27):
despair, discouragement, maybedepression through that, because
my whole world felt like it wascollapsing and I had no control
and no ability to get myselfback up again.
And that's what led me toLamentations, lamentations three
.
I was actually preachingthrough Lamentations during that
season, but Lamentations three,you got actually preaching
through Lamentations during thatseason.
But Lamentations 3, you've gotJeremiah seeing his whole world
(08:47):
collapsed, the city beingransacked, the nation being
taken into exile, and him givingvoice to the pain, the trauma,
the anguish, the uncertainty.
And then he says all hope isgone.
But then, in the middle ofLamentations 3, but my hope is
in the Lord, whose steadfastlove endures forever and His
(09:08):
mercies are new every morning.
That he is my portion and togreat is His faithfulness.
And just being reminded of thatas I'm going through what felt
like the most horrific anduncertain of trials, just
reminding myself that my hopeisn't in the fact, my hope isn't
in my healing, my hope isn't inmy healing, my hope isn't in my
voice, my hope isn't in myministry.
My hope isn't in my ability topreach.
(09:30):
I get great joy out of allthose things, but my hope is in
the steadfast love of the Lord,which endures forever.
And I needed to be reminded ofthat because even for those of
us in ministry, we can forgetwhere our hope, our true hope,
really lies.
We can make our ministryministry.
We can forget where our hope,our true hope, really lies.
We can make our ministry intoour life.
It's, it becomes everything,and you take it away and you
realize, you know the love, thelove of the Lord endures forever
(09:52):
and that's where our hope lies.
And we're better.
We're better ministers, pastors, preachers every time we get
reminded of that.
So so that kind of prepared mefor what was the storm that was
on the horizon, which was justlying in the ICU bed.
And the death of your dad, kindof coming up Dad dying in the
midst of that from COVID andjust yeah.
(10:12):
So I truly felt my whole worldwas crashing down around me.
But the one thing that neverchanged, I never doubted, was
both the love of the Lord,certainly the love of my family,
but also the church.
The way that church cared forme and my family through that
was so sweet.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Brian, you were watching because you're a mate
of Matthew's.
You were watching him walkthrough all of this and talking
to him about it at the time.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, I'm not sure if you're trying to make me cry,
but every time I talk about this, though it's hard, it takes me
back, me cry, but, um, uh, everytime I talk about this, though
it's it's hard, it takes me back.
When I hear him talk about it,it kind of stirs those, uh,
those affections and emotionsagain.
To watch your friend walkthrough all this stuff which I
was around for, uh, all of itand um, and it was incredibly
difficult to watch.
(10:57):
And yet, um, to watch somebodyyou love deeply go through so
much just kind of suffering overand over again and the things
that again, as he's talkingabout, I mean a preacher losing
his voice, I mean that's.
I don't think anybody cananticipate what that would be
like until you face it.
And then to watch him perseverein the midst of all of that and
(11:19):
have a strong faith and yet beable to express honestly his
questioning and just doesn'tunderstand these things.
To look back on those lastcouple of years and all that
he's been through In fact I'veshared with him on numerous
occasions I think that God isuniquely using him now, simply
because of the way he embracedhis weakness and Christ rose up
(11:44):
strong, and I think peopleexperience that when he talks
about these things now,certainly when he speaks and
speaks to other pastors andchallenges and encourages them
to press on even in the midst offacing suffering.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Let's press into that issue of being weak and being
vulnerable in our preaching andteaching, and I'll just put a
thought out and then get both ofyou to react to it.
I think, as I've done thepreaching and teaching, my hunch
is that I've been morevulnerable in the pulpit than
(12:20):
many of my peers many of mypeers, and particularly recently
, last five, eight, ten yearsbut I've been able to do that
from a position of, if you like,strength, in that I've got a
leadership team that's unitedbehind me here.
I'm feeling safe, all of thatkind of thing.
(12:41):
There was a point I don't know,2010, 11, that kind of time
when our church was really goingthrough a really divided season
and I kind of knew that inorder to be effective as a
minister of Christ Jesus, Ineeded to be sharing what God
(13:01):
was doing in my life.
And yet I didn't want to bevulnerable in the pulpit when I
felt like there were people whowere out there critical of me.
And so can you just talk aboutthat?
I'll maybe start with you,brian.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, sure, yeah, I certainly felt that in the early
years of my own ministry, whenyou have people who are
literally trying to remove youas pastor.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, you don't want to say I'm weak in any area.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You do not.
I mean just be.
It would fuel the fire it wouldgive them.
It's not a safe environment tobe vulnerable.
And so I remember beingchallenged in that, just
struggling, feeling the tensionyou just articulated I and so I
remember being challenged inthat, just struggling, feeling
the tension you just articulated.
I need to be able to be myselfand be vulnerable, and yet a
fear of just anything I saybeing weaponized against me.
(13:45):
What I eventually learned andcertainly grew to be able to
embrace this more.
I think it's very important andhelpful and an important part of
our ministry to be open andhonest and vulnerable to the
degree that we feel comfortabledoing.
I'm convinced that becausepastors so often put a facade
that they don't struggle likeeverybody else, even
(14:07):
unintentionally at times, I'mconvinced that our congregations
don't think that the pastorstruggles like they do unless we
remind them that we do so.
I think the need to bevulnerable is really important.
Otherwise the congregationthinks that we're separated from
them in that way and I think itopens up all kinds of ministry.
When we're vulnerable, youstand up and say that you battle
(14:27):
anxiety issues as a pastor andsomebody in the congregation had
no idea they may show up atyour office the next week going.
I actually think I can talk tohim about this in a way.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I didn't, and I think it just blows wide open the
doors of ministry that exists,that I don't think does exist,
when we put on this facade likewe have it all together and we
don't struggle like they do.
What about the problem of, Imean, I remember being
(14:57):
vulnerable about a sin, aboutpride, and really somebody
saying, I mean it was a longtime ago, well, you should
resign, do you?
Know, that's the worst of all,do you know?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, I think you have to be willing to take a
risk.
I mean, there's really not theability.
You can't be vulnerable withoutbeing willing to take a risk,
and I think that's the tensionyou feel is matter of fact, I've
heard pastors who will be openand vulnerable in a sermon,
share maybe a personal story,and they'll actually have a
church member say to them I feellike I know more about you more
(15:30):
than I want to know about you,and there's that tension that
some people don't want to knowtheir pastor is like them.
They almost want to put us on apedestal, and so I think you
have to realize the tensionexists, but I would certainly
argue the risk is worth it and Ithink also to do it in
appropriate ways.
I think pastors think it's gotto be an all or nothing.
(15:52):
I either have to lay out all mysins in front of you and tell
everybody about it, or I don'ttell you anything about them.
And what I encourage pastors todo is look within your context,
to whatever level you'recomfortable.
Then you can share vulnerablethings to some degree that
you're comfortable doing.
That can be effective andhelpful in your ministry without
telling everybody everythingthat you're struggling with all
(16:15):
the time and I think thatbalance is important, matthew.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Yes, I do think obviously this could be a level
of caution.
We know of men who are verygifted pastors and faithful
leaders who opened up about aparticular challenge and it was
weaponized against them bycertain individuals or groups in
the church and they ended uphaving to leave the church
because of it.
So you obviously have a levelof discernment and caution about
(16:39):
who you're vulnerable with.
But I would say, if you're notat the stage yet in your
ministry where you can bevulnerable, truly vulnerable
from the pulpit, you've at leastgot to be vulnerable somewhere.
The tendency, the danger, isthat we hide.
We hide what we're strugglingwith, we hide what we're
wrestling with.
We hide what we're strugglingwith.
We hide what we're wrestlingwith, we hide what we're truly
feeling and I think thatactually makes you more
(16:59):
vulnerable uh to uh, to, tofalling away from, to to um,
giving up, to failing topersevere because you're not
getting the help and the supportand the prayer, uh, that you're
going to need to, to, to playthe long game in ministry.
So if you can't be vulnerablein your pulpit or to your own
congregation, at least have somemen or some people in your life
that you can feel that you canbe truly open with and seek good
counsel and wisdom from you'vetalked about um three men carrie
(17:23):
, ward and marshman.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Tell us about them yeah, so, so.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So when you talk about perseverance, there are
really three things that I thinkpeople pastors particularly
struggle with when it comes toperseverance.
One is opposition that you guyshave faced in in your ministry.
Where can I persevere in themidst of this opposition, taking
this weakness, which is whatI've struggled with physical
weakness, personal weakness,having to confront that and seek
the support in doing so?
I think the third one isloneliness, and often pastors
(17:50):
are very lonely, insecure.
Open that up for me.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
So I think sometimes pastors struggle to make good
friends, to know how to havegood friends in their life,
particularly when they Lots ofco-collaborators.
Yeah, lots of people in life.
But it's a strange profession,if you want to call it a
profession, where the peopleclosest to you in your life are
also the ones that you'reaccountable to.
And they're accountable to youin terms of the people that you
(18:16):
know to and they're accountableto you In terms of the people
that you know they're going tobe open to you about some of
their biggest struggles and theyexpect you to speak into it.
But if you're open to themabout yours, then all of a
sudden that becomes complicated.
And so you know, if you have aday job in an office somewhere
and the people working next toyou aren't going to open up
about all their life strugglesimmediately or think that you
(18:37):
need to have an opinion about it, and neither could they fire
you if you did have an opinionabout it.
And so something about ministry,where we are naturally on guard
.
But that could, if we're notcareful, lead to a place where
we isolate ourselves, becomelonely, feeling insecure.
The longer we're in ministrysometimes, the more insecure we
can feel because of ministry.
Tell me about that.
The longer we're in ministrysometimes, the more insecure we
(18:57):
can feel because of ministry.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Tell me about that, the longer we're in ministry,
the more insecure we can feel.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Because you look behind and there's wreckage of
lost friendships along the way.
People that you open up to areopened up to you and they've
left, they've walked away,they've moved away and you're
still standing and you're stillthere and you look back and
begin to wonder who are my truefriends?
Who are the people going to bewith me for the long haul?
(19:23):
Who are the ones going to fightfor me and not turn against me?
And I think a lot of pastorsreally struggle to develop close
, meaningful, long-lastingfriendships.
So the the William Carey storyis you know, he goes, goes on
the mission field, but he goesand he takes with him two
brothers, two good friends ofhis.
One is a school teacher, one isa printer.
(19:44):
And the three of them have thiscovenant together where they
are basically going to sacrificeeverything for each other, are
going to fight for each other,are going to be loyal to each
other.
So when opposition comesagainst them which it did on the
mission field, often from othermissionaries these three men
stood firm together, encourageeach other, pray for each other
and they're able to persevereand do great ministry side by
(20:06):
side.
I think every pastor has to have.
Who are those men in my life.
They may not be yet men in yourown church.
Over time, you'd hope that theywould be people in your own
congregation who are going to bethose who are, who're going to
lovingly walk with you throughthrough struggle, through trial,
um, and celebrate with you thejoys of life as well, um.
But if you're not activelypursuing it and if you're not
(20:26):
that yourself, others.
So we have to be good friendsto others as well and learn how
to do that, uh and so, yeah.
So the isolation and insecurityin ministry is often what leads
many men to walk away from thechurch of a ministry altogether,
just because it becomes reallypainful.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Can I just get you to push into that wreckage of
friendships line?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Sure, yeah, I agree.
In fact it's ideal if you canfind some of those friendships
in your church.
I'll push back and say I thinkit's harder, it's rare even.
I think those kinds offriendships that Matthew's
articulating really come fromother pastors outside your own
church and you form thesefriendships with other men that
I think that's what helps thecomplexity Matthew's talking
(21:09):
about gets eliminated a bit whenyou have a pastor who is your
friend.
You're not serving together inthe same church.
It's totally based onfriendship and yet a pastor
understands what a pastor goesthrough.
So I believe pastoral friendshipis really kind of the forgotten
piece of a persevering ministry, of having a long ministry.
I know very few pastors thatare able to do ministry a long
(21:31):
time without some kind of close,personal, safe friendship that
knows what it's like to be youand go through what you go
through and to foster thatministry relationship,
especially among men and fellowelders and pastors in the church
, can be very transactional.
We can do a ton of ministrytogether and yet the
(21:52):
relationship remainstransactional.
We have a relationship becauseof all this ministry we do in
our church remains transaction.
We, we, we have a relationshipbecause of all this ministry we
do in our church and so I'll getyou know.
I'll get asked to come into meetwith a group of elders and just
kind of team building typeconversations and things, and
they're kind of shocked by whatI start with that they're
usually expect me to come in andsay okay, so how how many hours
do you pray or how you know,how much are you reading the
(22:14):
Bible together?
And those and of course thoseare important things.
I'll usually start by sayingare you all friends?
Do you all like each other?
Do you spend time with eachother outside of doing ministry
and just fostering thatrelationship of trust?
Because I'm convinced, whenhard things come, when
disagreements come among leaders, and in the same church
(22:34):
particularly, and in the samechurch particularly, the thing
that's going to help you getthrough that is the fact that
you have a friendship, anorganic trust of each other and
a love for each other.
That gives you, each other, thebenefit of the doubt in hard
conversations and that's reallywhere the leaders of a church
come together.
And likewise, when you havepastor friends outside your own
(22:54):
church, that becomes a very, Ithink, safe place to be open and
vulnerable and help and alsosomeone outside the church to
come in and be able to care foryou if need be.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Do you find people say I'm just spending, as a
pastor, all my relational timewith the people that I'm
shepherding, and now I'm full.
I just want to go off and be anintrovert.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't want to so true.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay, doctor, what's your prescription?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, I can really relate to what you're saying
because I'm an extrovert so Iloved being with people and had
a high capacity for that for alot of years.
So my heart goes out to theintroverts, who you know, who
who continue trying to lovetheir folks but maybe don't have
as much capacity to be able todo that.
And one of the things that hitme is several years ago, all of
a sudden I found myself havinglimited capacity.
(23:52):
I could I could only do that somuch, even as an extrovert
getting older and just all theyears of ministry.
And what I think the solutionis is to real.
A part of caring for our ownheart is to recognize our
humanity, our limitations thoseare okay, that's how God made us
and to do what we can to bewith people to the level we
can't push ourselves to do that,but how we care for our own
(24:15):
soul, that go to that quietstill.
I think silence and stillness isone of the most important
disciplines in a pastor's lifeand doing the things that
actually fills up the cup of oursoul.
So we actually have somethingto pour out for people.
Most pastors are functioning onempty and they're trying to
pour out from a place wherethere's nothing and they're
trying to pour out from a placewhere there's nothing, so caring
(24:35):
for our own soul and our ownheart doing those things, and a
lot of times it's going off andbeing alone and by ourselves,
away from people, just alonewith the Lord.
There's so many beautifulexamples in the Gospels of how
(24:57):
the Gospel writers highlight howJesus in a moment dismissed the
crowds, sent his disciplesahead and went to the mountain
to be alone and pray and wasthere for an extended amount of
time.
I find it interesting how thegospel writers actually
highlight that he's been, he'sthere for a limp, for a certain
amount of time.
It's not quick, it's, it's slowand and I think it's it's a
model for us, that on how wecare for ourselves as well.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I'm just trying to reflectively listen to your
prescription.
I think you're saying less timein ministry, more time alone
with God and more timedeveloping friendships with
other pastors.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And a balance of all of those things.
I think that's the key is whenwe want to work hard in the
ministry, we want to be with ourpeople, like that's the heart
of what we do.
We got to find a way to balanceout these other things
friendship and alone time withthe Lord and having those things
as part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Okay, let's go to a word to younger Matthew from
Matthew.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
It was just even just talking about friendship.
I think sometimes, as pastorsmake the mistake of making every
interaction into a meeting,like I'm going to meet with this
friend so we can talk aboutthis Like um.
I think we just lose sight ofthat friends, so we can talk
about this like um.
I think we just lose sideeffect.
The normal friendship is justsitting and just having a chat
and just having, with no agenda,no, no meeting.
No, uh, just hanging out.
You know, I think we're uh,sometimes you feel guilty just
(26:07):
for having fun, you know, justdoing things that are fun and,
uh, entertaining and enjoyable.
I think that could belife-giving, uh in in many ways.
And and finding what?
What is that in be life-givingin many ways?
And finding what is that inyour life?
And I think I struggled withthat early on in ministry.
I was so busy and so driventhat everything had to have a
purpose in life and ministry andI realized I don't know if I am
(26:29):
a good friend and I don't knowif I know even how to have fun
anymore and just have to peelback some of those layers and
just feel okay about justswitching off and enjoying time
with other people.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I think the congregation wants you to be a
fun person who has friends doyou know?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Rather than the person you just described, and I
think perhaps all of usstruggle to be that person
because in the end, we're sodriven.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, I think perhaps all of us struggle to be
that person because in the endwe're so driven.
Yeah, I think there's perhapseven a low-key sense of guilt
about it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I want people to see me to be working all the time
see me to be and you think thatbecause you do, there's a
tension of if I come across as aslacker, there's a tension of
if I come across as a slacker,then people won't want to put
their shoulder to the wheel tohelp grow the kingdom here, and
they won't want to give ifthey're thinking I'm slack.
It's such a paradox, and so Ido feel driven to work hard, and
(27:30):
yet I end up doing things thatmake my life unsustainable.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, and often and we've talked about how some
of the physical weaknesses wefeel is often down to mental
struggles that we're having interms of stress and not being
able to switch off and rest andrelax, or feeling guilty about
taking that day off and goingfor that walk and just having
(27:54):
spending an enjoyable time withfriends and actually there's
something intentional about rest.
So rest is simply being lazyand resting but being lazy is is
just disengaging and switchingoff.
Resting is actually engaging.
As I am, I'm going tointentionally rest by doing this
to, to restore my soul, to, tostrengthen my hand, to
(28:16):
strengthen the work.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Just as we were sitting down for coffee before
we came in here, you're bothjust saying your youngest child
has graduated from high school,and I mean one of my
observations is, it was the casewhen we had teenagers at home
that rest time actually waspretty much investing in the
kids.
(28:37):
That's right, whereas now thatthey're off our hands, we've
actually got to creatively thinkabout what to do for rest time.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
You want to riff on that, brian?
That's right.
Sure, I agree, and that's beeninteresting too.
I think that pastors, whenthey'll come to me and they're
burnt out, they're depressed,and again they're depressed, and
again they're expecting somehyper-spiritual conversation
we're going to have.
I usually ask them two things.
Initially, I'll say how muchsleep do you get at night and
(29:08):
what do you do for fun?
And they have no idea why.
Those are the questions thatI'm asking initially.
But the sleep, obviously a bigpart of just our life, and the
need to take care of ourselves.
But having a hobby, havingsomething that's fun outside of
ministry having, I actuallythink this is not just okay.
I think it's essential to havethat for us to be equipped to do
(29:31):
our ministry well, and so manypastors have nothing else
outside of their own ministry.
So we have this desire to workhard.
The problem is we just work allthe time and we don't have
anything else in our life.
And the human I just think thehuman soul, the way we were
created, is to be able to havefun things and life-giving
(29:51):
things and joyful things in ourlife.
So one of the things I'mexperiencing is taking up some
new hobbies, as I have this.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah what you doing, what are your hobbies?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I have all kinds of hobbies actually.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I hope to see it.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, big sports guy, so I love watching sports and
playing sports and those kindsof things, but hiking, bike
riding, those kinds of things.
But here's one that I've gotteninto.
I'm 50 years old, turn 51, godwilling, next month, and I've
gotten into planting flowers.
Never thought that would besomething I would enjoy, but
just I'm slowing down.
Love to be outside in God'screation.
(30:23):
I'm a creative person, so it'slooking and seeing the beauty
and all of a sudden I startedfinding myself going.
I'm going to start plantingsome flowers in my house, and so
who knew?
But I get a lot of joy in that.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I have got into cooking with Chet GPT.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
But what I would.
There's so many importantthings.
I think that's good for my soul.
That then rejuvenates me to godo what God's called me to.
And I think the deception ispastors think I'll be most
productive if I just do this allthe time, and I just think it's
a deception.
I think what if you care foryour, take time to care for
yourself?
I think that's what when I seeJesus go to the mountain to pray
(31:02):
and be alone with the Fatherand rest.
I think he knew something wedidn't that.
What if we're more useful tothe Lord after we've actually
done things like that Instead ofthinking?
Working all the time is how weserve the lord best.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Matthew mental health .
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Um just take me there um, I'm not in the flower
planting phase of my life yet,but just wait might get there
eventually um, uh, yeah, it is.
It means in ministry there's somany uh wounds that we can carry
carry from either people who'vewounded us along the way or
struggles that we've had toendure along the way and and
(31:42):
that can play play it all on onyour own mental health in terms
of sleeplessness.
So I've struggled with insomniamyself, even following some of
the the medical experience I'vehad.
There's a level of trauma, youknow, waking up and thinking am
I still in that ICU unit?
Do I still hear those beepsfrom that?
They still come to you, you hearthem yeah yeah, there's
(32:05):
particularly some moments when Iwake up in the middle of the
night, almost like some nightterrors, and that insomnia, that
sleeplessness, begins to affectyour ability to do the work
that you're called to do.
And so just taking thatseriously and getting the help
that you need and acknowledgingthat you know.
So we're talking here aboutpersevering as a pastor, but we
also got to recognize that apastor that's thriving is a
(32:28):
benefit to the whole church.
It's not just for our sake,right, it's not just for the
sake of the ministry that we'recalled to do, and so if I care
about my church, I should alsocare about my ability to
persevere as their shepherd andas their pastor as well, and
this isn't just self-serving orself-seeking.
This is ultimately what we'recalled to do as under shepherds
of the congregation the Lord hasgranted us.
So yeah, mental health talkingopenly about the struggles we
(32:51):
have, recognizing when we're notgetting the rest that we need.
If we are dealing with levelsof insecurity or struggling with
, maybe, anxiety, then justbeing open and honest about
those struggles I have so manymore questions, but we are out
of time.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Thank you very much for coming and sharing with us
today.
My guests on the Pastor's Heartare Matthew Spandler-Davison,
who lives in Louisville and he'swith Practical Shepherding and
serves as Executive Director of20 Schemes Church in Hard Places
in Scotland, and Brian Croft,who leads the Practical
Shepherding Ministry in Kentucky.
(33:31):
My name's Dominic Steele.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart and we will look forward
to your company next Tuesdayafternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!