November 17, 2025 • 36 mins
How to turn around evangelistic stagnation in your church — or how to start pursuing a 5% goal?
Across Australian Evangelicalism there is a bold goal — growing our churches by 5% per year through conversion growth.
But some pastors are asking: “We haven’t seen anyone become a Christian here in years… where do we even start?”
We talk:
• Should we even have an evangelism target?
• What are the theological issues?
• How do you start when conversions have been rare?
• What cultural changes actually make a difference?
• Funnels, programs and “conversion engines.”
• And how to build momentum with stories, prayer and team alignment.
Three pastors who are right at the beginning of the journey, Brett Middleton (St Luke’s Miranda),
Ben Molyneux (St Faith’s Narrabeen) and Dan Au (Cornerstone Kogarah) — We set an evangelism target - Now what?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:36):
We set an evangelism target, but now what?
I am imagining quite a fewministers are thinking, wow, a
5% goal.
Did we do that?
Did we say that?
We haven't seen anyone convertedin years.
So what do we do?
Where do we start?
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, our gueststoday, Brett Middleton, Ben
Molyneux, and Dan Or.
(00:57):
The Sydney Anglican Synod hasset a target of growing by 5%
per year against average serviceattendance through conversion
growth.
Here's how Archbishop Rafaeloutlined it to the Synod in
September.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
The 5% number arises from a national conversation
that has been initiated by theGospel Coalition Australia
across like-mindeddenominations.
It is not a way of telling Godwhat to do.
It is a way of making everylocal church ask, what should we
do?
And the answers will be asdifferent as the churches.
(01:33):
In a church of 300, a prayerfulgoal of 15 new Christians in
church every year for five yearsis enough to create real change.
In a church of 80 people, aprayerful goal of 5% growth in
new believers would be thinkingabout four people a year.
And that might not require arevolution in what is happening
(01:55):
now, but it might be a spur anda focus and generate prayer and
expectation and perseverance inthe work of making Jesus known
to others.
SPEAKER_04 (02:06):
That's Sydney Archbishop, Archbishop Kanishka
Raffle.
In parallel to that, the GospelCoalition Australia has set a
target of doubling the number ofevangelicals in Australia over
20 years.
Something that could only beachieved through most of our
congregations having aconversion rate of 5% against
average service attendance.
(02:26):
Now, I know there are peoplewatching around the world, and
some I've spoken to have beenencouraged by this bold step
forward, and so perhaps yourindividual staff team or
congregation is thinking, howcould we do that?
How could we adopt that 5%benchmark conversion goal as
well?
Well, Brett Middleton of St.
Luke's Miranda is with us, BenMolyneux of St.
Faith's in Narrabeen, and DanAu, who is the site pastor for
(02:49):
Cornerstone Presbyterians Campusat Cogra.
Now, let us start with thePastor's Heart, gentlemen.
And um actually, when I raisedthis coming on and having this
conversation with each of you,each of you were a little
apprehensive.
And uh well, let's start withyou, Brett.
Why apprehensive?
SPEAKER_05 (03:04):
Um, I think when you first raised it with me, you you
you wanted some people who uhwere achieving the 5% uh
already.
And um we had the conversationsaid I'm just I'm not that guy,
you know, our church isn'tseeing that many conversions
every year.
I could probably do the otherpodcast, which is the um talking
to guys who who aren't achievingit and how how we're moving
forward.
(03:24):
So I guess at a heart level,it's the feeling of um uh yeah,
I'm I'm I'm I you know you don'talways feel like you belong in
the conversation when you're achurch that's struggling to see
people, particularly adults, uhcoming to Christ.
Um, but there's there'ssomething energizing about it as
well.
Five percent.
I don't know how you guys findBen.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think for me, uh similarfeelings uh to what Brett just
expressed.
I think Brett threw me under thebus and suggested I come on the
show as well.
Thanks for hearing you.
Uh and yet there's somethingabout seeing people converted
that actually just stirs myheart and uh and just reminds me
of what we're doing and whywe're doing it.
And so seeing people convertedis the thing that fires me up in
(04:08):
front of the case.
And so yours too saying I'm notthere yet, but I want to be.
Not there yet, but yeah,definitely want to be.
SPEAKER_04 (04:13):
Yeah, and I mean, Dan, yeah, you're a Presbyterian
watching us have this congregconversation of the Anglicans is
exactly what your pastor'sheart.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, I used to train in a in an Anglican
college, and but now I'm in aPresbyterian church.
Um, I mean, we're known as adenomination for many wonderful
things, you know, like worshipand good governance and all the
rest.
Good governance.
But listen, when it comes toreaching out and when it comes
to making disciples, especiallyconversion growth, we we are not
always on the front foot of thatin a vibrant sort of way.
(04:43):
And so, very much like Brettshared, I where there's a great
deal of fear and trepidation interms of coming into this
conversation.
Um, I don't think the 5% uhbenchmark has been something
that's at the forefront of ourminds, and particularly for the
Cogra context, we're a fairlynew church.
We've only been just around forfour years, you know, um, as a
site location plant of theCornerstone Church family.
(05:03):
And therefore, as we've uh seengrowth in terms of uh people
coming to our church, the uhimpetus and the agenda for
evangelism, it always remains tobe a challenge.
And that's why I'm sort ofscared but also excited about
this conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (05:17):
So, Brett, um uh, should we have an evangelistic
target?
Um, and as you kind of firstraised it with your staff team,
um to play that conversation.
I mean, just just pretend.
This is just us.
How'd the conversation go?
SPEAKER_05 (05:31):
Um, people are uh have some squeamishness about a
5% conversion target.
And I think naturally I wouldhave something similar.
And yet I think as a church, wecount almost everything else
with a clear conscience.
We count how much money peoplegive, how many people came to
church, uh, we count ourbaptisms and conversions, we
count how many funerals andweddings we might do in any
(05:52):
given year, we count how manypeople are in our Bible study
groups, and none of that has thesame vibe, yet all of that is
equally a work of the HolySpirit within our church.
Uh so to a conversions.
Um I'm really willing to countconversions, yeah.
Partly because of uh the shame Ihad when we did a church uh
consult.
Five years ago became rector,did the consult, um, comes back
(06:16):
with a grid of you know, greensand oranges and reds, depending
on how well you're doing acrossvarious um areas of church life,
and came back expecting thiswill reveal you know how great
this church is that I've beenpart of for 10 years, that I'm
now the rector of.
Um and there was a sea of youknow, oranges and greens and one
grey box with a big questionmark in it, which was how many
(06:39):
people have come to faith, howmany adults have come to faith?
And that was the one thing thatI couldn't give an answer to to
our shame, just to think thatthe most important thing that
our church should be doing, thereason God has planted a church
on this corner of Miranda islike to see the loss welcomed
into a healthy church.
Yeah, um, it was the one thingwe weren't paying attention to.
(07:00):
So um happily five percent goal,great, keep me accountable.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Ben uh in counting, yeah.
Yeah, I think the again, I thinkmy reflection is yes, of course,
I think we want to we want tocount, we want to make sure that
we uh I agree with everythingBrett said there.
Newcomers, of course, we countnewcomers who come in the door.
Uh why wouldn't we count thepeople who have made first-time
(07:29):
professions of faith?
Um, I think the hesitation froma lot of people is they feel
that that's taking away thesovereignty of God or something
like that.
If you set a goal or you uhyou're you're looking at a
particular number uh that youmight be limiting God or playing
God, but really it's justhelping us drive that mission
(07:49):
heat in a way that helps us todo what we're called to be doing
as a church, promoting thegospel and seeing people saved.
SPEAKER_04 (07:56):
I mean, I'm just thinking that line, you count
what you value, but also theydid count your necks.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Yeah, that's right.
We I I love our denomination asa as I love being a Presbyterian
uh pastor.
Uh but there is some vital areasthere to work on and to improve.
One of the things is that eachyear we have to submit to church
officers what we call a form S,which describes all our
statistics.
That's what the S stands for, isstatistics on the attendance,
(08:24):
statistics on the uh demographicbreakdown and so on.
But the one thing that itdoesn't ask for uh is the number
of conversions.
And so I really relate to that,that need and that urgency and
the importance, the thecelebration value.
Part of the part of it is thecomplexity of the task.
What is a conversion?
You know, you have a person whocomes from the United Church
(08:45):
over and get and believes in thegospel, would that be a
conversion like that?
Or having a person with like areformed you know journey, would
that count as a conversion?
Recommitments absolutely aswell, but like how do we draw
that uh line?
But I do think that it is worthum uh having the criteria for
what makes a gospel transformedperson, maybe over a period of
(09:06):
time.
And I really like what you saidbefore, Ben, about just having
it like a two-year measurement,you know what I mean?
So that you see the fruitbecause it's not the numbers
that are as beautiful as the asthe story behind that number.
Um, and it's a bit likegardening, isn't it?
Like you just you don't want youdon't just want to see new plans
and buds grow, but the overalluh beauty of the garden is
really what uh what you want tovalue.
(09:28):
So that's what I'd say.
SPEAKER_04 (09:29):
Tell us about the conversation and how it's played
out in your context, uh Ben.
SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
Yeah, and Narrabin, I think the 5% hasn't been uh
hasn't jarred our staff team atall.
I think there's not that we'reachieving it, but just the
setting a goal and uh havingsomething to aim towards, I
think has been an encouragementfor our staff team.
Uh we've been part of the ReachAustralia network for the last
(09:53):
sort of four or five years, anduh they've been helping us to
think through what what ishealthy with regards to the
number of conversions.
And so I think those uhconversations have probably
enabled this you know morerecent move by the synod to help
us to receive that five percentand to to work towards achieving
that together.
SPEAKER_04 (10:13):
And Dan, what about you as you look on and what have
you thought?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
Well, the five percent is not something that's
been on the forefront of ourminds or our agenda.
We haven't pushed like athrough-a-synod type of
influence to actually it'sreally just what's going on in
your private discussions here.
Yeah, uh in-house, I guess,behind the leadership, it's
always good to sort of aim forcertain like numbers and
percentages.
Um, but I we've noticed that asa church plant uh who's been
around for now for just a fewyears, we've tried a lot of ways
(10:42):
to reach out, uh,evangelistically and uh
missionally, um, throughconversations, connections, and
so on.
But now that the resource isexpansive, like it, we we we are
investing in so much differentideas here and there.
It's actually quite uh we feelthe burden of having to bring
some sort of focus, I guess, atleast for us at Cogra.
(11:05):
So we do have the the weeklyplay group and we've got the
Christmas events, we've gotcommunity exposure and so on.
But the the resource uh questionis is really uh quite key.
Uh we had a meeting with ourministry leaders uh a few months
ago, and we identified the thegap in the flow uh of newcomers
to uh mature Christians in ourchurch.
(11:27):
Where is the gap uh mostevident?
And we noticed that it was inthe conversion aspect where
we're quite good at the connectand the contact, pretty good
with church life and theequipping.
But when it came to actuallyseeing people save, the
expectation, like you said, wenoticed that there was something
quite glaring.
And so we had to do somethingabout that.
SPEAKER_04 (11:46):
Brett, what about you there?
How have you what's the nextstage of the conversation in
your team?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (11:51):
Yeah.
Uh uh, so I think um uh with ourteam, but it's asking questions
around, first of all, uh uh thedoes the church understand the
purpose of the church?
I said this is the culturalquestion.
Um, well, actually, taking astep back from that, I'd
probably say it's it's a realheart question for each of the
staff.
Yes, like we have a burningdesire to see um people come to
(12:12):
Christ um across all the seasonsof uh their lives, and then a
staff alignment question.
Do we all agree on uhdefinitions and targets and that
we as a staff And whether or notwe should have a target, whether
or not we should have it andplay that discussion out for us,
yeah.
Um Yeah, that that discussionwasn't difficult.
(12:32):
I think the difficulty comeswhen you're you start to say
because of the target, this iswhere resources get allocated.
And then you start to get a bitof playing off of uh, but
there's there's various goodsthat the church is doing.
And to be able to say, but butwe've all agreed on the greater
good of seeing seeing the losssaved.
I think I think that's the morechallenging staff alignment
(12:53):
discussion.
What have been some of theawkward discussions there?
Um, probably around you know, uhbeloved programs, you might say.
And to say uh um this program,uh I guess in the back of our
minds is a coalface meaning thecommunity program.
Are we seeing any peopletranslate from that program into
(13:14):
um our evangelism engines, intothe church life?
Um, is it is it working as partof the pathway or not?
Um, which you you try not tohave the discussion of should it
exist or not, but what what arewe doing within it?
And uh can we have betteralignment on the purpose of the
program, people saying this iswhy it exists, do we have the
right people that are part ofit?
Um are we um uh we we've had thesimilar discussion.
SPEAKER_04 (13:38):
We we we we've had an art show called the Heart of
Annandale art show for a numberof years.
And it's been really good interms of culture of awareness of
our church, but we've actuallyhad to ask the hard question has
it actually led to anybody besaved?
Do you know?
And and it's uh been a majoreffort to put on.
And so we've just pressed pauseon that, you know.
(14:00):
Um we've not necessarilyabandoned it forever, but we've
just pressed pause and we wefound crazily we we ran a um a
carnival on the 31st of October,which happened to be the same
night as Halloween, and therewas just kids everywhere walking
up and down our suburbanstreets.
Yeah.
And we've had um one new familyjoin Sunday morning and another
(14:26):
kid come to youth group, and Ithought, oh, actually, for much,
much less effort, we've had asignificantly better result.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Yeah, we can relate to that.
I mean, in uh Kogra has uhenjoyed a great location.
Our site is uh opposite a largearea hospital and adjacent to
the square.
And for the first couple ofyears of our starting uh
Cornerstone Cogra, we'vefeatured a large exposing
Christmas event out in thecommunity, which drew like a lot
of people.
(14:58):
Yeah, and for a few hours.
Um lots of goodwill, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lots of um uh like light contactuh uh exposure of our name to
the community, which is great.
But as we assessed uh inprevious years that's passed, we
noticed that there's been somuch effort that's been put in,
(15:18):
but for fairly little outcome orresult of people who've joined
the church.
Uh, and that's what's led usthis year to sort of pivot our
evangelism strategy.
We still have the Christmasoutreach event, but it's a lot
more light touch and low-key,you know what I mean?
Uh inviting our friends andfamily and things like that, you
know, to uh we still havesomething on in the square,
(15:38):
especially when we got councilapproval for it, um, and the
grant as well that goes with it.
So that's been that's been uh anencouraging pivot.
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
What are some of the programs you've had to sort of
say this is helping us as afunnel event and this one isn't?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (15:53):
Um well it it starts, I think, for us is by uh
defining which are the real uhconversion engines within our
church life and allowing thoseto be a bully in our calendar
and shifting everything to theside.
Uh so that would be for us uhExplore Life, which we try we
run twice a year at the moment.
Um, and uh that becomes a bigyou know focal point.
(16:14):
We we make sure there's notother programs, even in the lead
up to that, that it's justdrawing energy and attention
away.
So it just gets pride of placein our church calendar.
Um uh and also our services tothink they're they're really the
secondary regular conversionengine that we want to have.
Uh so we always want ourservices to um have an eye to
those who are seeking out Jesus.
(16:35):
So it's partly for us thinkingthese are the ones uh that um
get to be the bully in thecalendar around everything else.
Um we we haven't uh had toreally close down anything, but
we have shifted the way we thinkabout some of them.
So for instance, Christmas andEaster were for us um something
that we thought this is wherethe loss can be saved.
(16:56):
Uh we've noticed plenty ofpeople uh who are not Christians
coming along, but no onetranslates from them into uh
anything further.
So we've changed how we thinkabout them, which changes how we
resource them, to okay, we wantthem to be uh places where
people's you know evangelisticmuscles are exercised.
Uh so they become uh placeswhere our our regulars are
(17:17):
encouraged to invite people.
It gets the flywheel and theenergy of evangelism going
rather than thinking this isgoing to translate directly to
our our explore life course.
So it does change how youresource them and the
expectations that you have onparticular programs.
SPEAKER_04 (17:31):
How's it thinking about playing out for you, Ben?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yeah, look, I think at Narrowbean, we probably
haven't done the work yet on uhreviewing the different
ministries and differentoutreach programs that we have.
Though one just reflection, Isuppose, in just hearing us talk
about this is some of the uhsome of our longer-term
programs.
We run a thing called theCommunity Pantry that we've run,
uh, a meal for people in need inour local community.
Uh you know, we don't see peoplenecessarily becoming Christians
(17:56):
at that, but it does providewonderful opportunity to express
the love of Christ in our widercommunity.
And I was reminded this year, wehad um uh one man become a
Christian recently uh in August.
And he's been a part of ourchurch community for about 10
years, just in and out over thecourse of those 10 years, in
different uh parts of umdifferent ministries, coming
(18:18):
along to church regularly, butit was a really long time of uh
friendship, buildingrelationship with him, uh, to
get him to even come along toour Discover course, which
finally happened, and then hebecame a Christian.
So I'm just reminded as we talkabout the different programs and
even the art show that you talkabout, getting people on site
and having those opportunitiesuh to be Christians in and
(18:41):
invite um the community ontoyour church grounds is just a
wonderful opportunity in and ofitself to start those
relationships that might take along time for people to turn to
Christ.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (18:52):
One of the things that 5% does provide with our
programs is assessment windows.
So I think about my kids'minister who'll say, We're gonna
we're gonna restart thisplaytime thing that we've had a
crack at at various times overthe decades.
Um, but if we haven't seenpeople come from playtime into
our wider church life withinthree to five years, um we're
gonna make the call that it'sit's not working.
(19:14):
We're we're not at the stage ofsort of we know which ones to
close down.
We're at the stage of we knowhow to assess them uh in the
finite time that we have.
Are we doing the right things tosee the loss saved?
SPEAKER_04 (19:26):
Um how are you seeing it play out amongst the
different demographics?
Um I mean, we're hearing, and wehad a conversation here the
other day, um, about uh the waveof interest we're getting
amongst the young adults, andparticularly young adult men.
But we're not seeing the samewave um with the older
(19:49):
demographics, and yet I want toincrease uh I mean I'll give you
our one.
W the easy thing for us to saywould be to say we want to see
ten ten people become Christianthis year, you know.
Um but it's a harder thing forus to say we want to see five
people connected with ourevening congregation become
(20:09):
Christian this year.
And here's the hard one we wantto see five people connected
with our morning congregationbecome Christian this year
because we're not as active inthat demographic.
Yeah, Ben.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
Uh yeah, so again at Narrowbean, I think we're
following the trend of whatwe're seeing in wider Sydney and
maybe around the world, is thatwe are uh noticing a lot of
young adults in particular andpraise God coming to church.
Um we were part of uh the Hopefor the Beaches campaign with
the Anglican churches across thebeaches uh during August, and
(20:43):
that was a wonderful opportunitywhere we saw uh we had an event
for young people uh at St.
Luke's grammar school, and therewere many people who responded
to the gospel on that night.
The senior ministers werecooking the sausages that day,
so uh we got to experience it aswell just from uh from behind
the distance.
Yeah.
But it was a wonderful uh night,but it but yeah, it was targeted
(21:04):
really obviously at the youngpeople in our community.
Um I I think probably uh the uhfrom again from a narrowband
perspective, we have connectionswith the uh Warriwood Anglican
(21:46):
village, uh with the theWarvetts, Upper Coloro Plateau.
Uh, we have chaplains in each ofthose uh villages, and uh
thinking through evangelisticstrategies for those villages is
something that we need to dowork on into the future because
there are just greatopportunities in each of those
with full-time chaplain uhchaplaincy teams.
SPEAKER_04 (22:05):
But how do we raise the the mission heat amongst
that over 40 demographic Brett?
SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
We resonate a lot with that demographic dilemma
that you've just posed.
Uh one of the special things,it's not unique to Cornerstone,
but one of the things that Ilove about our church is that we
are an intergenerational localchurch community.
And it's maybe for that reason,dominantly, that we haven't um
uh started an evening servicejust yet, because we wanted to
preserve the intergenerationaldynamic.
(22:34):
The upside, of course, is thatthe community really gets to
know each other well, like thefamilies and older uh
demographics um ministering tothe younger and so on.
But the challenging thing is,therefore, is that it seems to
be one segment of thedemographic, like the young
adults who come to theevangelism events to discover
courses and so on.
Now, fortunately, we've realizedalmost even by accident that by
(22:56):
uh by us running a variety ofevangelistic uh uh programs and
activities, um, we've actuallyseen folks in the older
demographics, the 40-year-oldsand above, who've joined uh our
church since.
So, most recently, for example,we've started uh an easy English
ministry on a Sunday afternoon,which has drawn together some
seniors.
And we also have uh small, uh, Iguess smaller groups from
(23:18):
existing growth groups, connectgroups, what we what we call
them, uh, to take a group ofpeople aside and actually do
Christianity explained withthem.
Uh so that we have found moretraction, I suppose, but it's
it's not a uh widespread churchannounced kind of thing, but it
it does get notified.
But um, these are the kinds ofstrategies that we've noticed
(23:39):
that has has actually producedsome fruit.
SPEAKER_05 (23:41):
Yeah.
Um one practical thing that wehave done is being intentional
about the the groups of peoplethat we invite into our um our
Explore Life course who arealready Christians.
So um it's an open invite,obviously, and people are
inviting their their friends in,but then grabbing particular
Bible study groups and saying,Would you like to come along
(24:03):
this time around?
And um for people who have beenpart of that and have seen
people come to Christ there,yeah, and uh by the grace of
God, it's been various agegroups who who have come to
Christ in that.
I think it's good for them to beable to see it and just say,
like, God is not done with mebecause I've hit a certain age
and not done with my networks.
(24:25):
Um and then they're chatting atmorning tea about what what I
saw happen last year.
And and they can next timearound, they'll they'll they'll
sort of I'm gonna bring a friendto this one because I've seen it
play out.
Um the reality at St.
Luke's is I would say thefurther you get from youth
group, um, the just the lesspeople you're seeing become
Christians around you.
So last year we had 30 under 18sbecome Christians, five over
(24:47):
eighteens become Christians.
So this is this vastdiscrepancy.
So you want to see that, you'vegot that same d dilemma of the
the demographic thing that I'mtalking about.
Yeah.
Yes.
And um, but the the more peoplecan see that the spirits of work
and Jesus is calling peoplehome, whether that's live at the
group or whether it's beingcelebrated up the front, um, I
think that goes some way to getthe energy happening across
(25:11):
across age groups.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
I'll just um jump in and say I think one of the
things that we've identified isthat we as a staff team get very
excited when we hear of peoplewho have become Christians, but
we need to work harder attelling the stories.
And so I don't think we've uhthis is something that we're
looking in the future, is justhow do we each month highlight
uh whether it's a video or apersonal testimony of someone on
(25:32):
a video or in the flesh orsomething like that, that just
helps the wider church to feeloh, God is on the move, God's
doing something.
People are being converted.
The the gospel really is seeingpeople move from death to life
and actually share the stories.
And yeah, whether they're uh ofan older demographic or a
younger demographic, um, I thinkfor anyone at this point, just
(25:53):
seeing people converted is agreat encouragement for
Christians, and it really doesstir their faith in Christ and
stirs their trust in the gospelthat it that it that it works in
seeing people move from death tolife.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
That line of um stats are for staff and stories
of the congregation.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
I think we are about as good as the stories that we
tell.
And uh the great advantage aboutbeing a site or a lead pastor is
that you do have control overwhat gets displayed on the
Sunday service.
And so what we've doneoccasionally and regularly uh at
COGRA was to feature ourstories, even if they're just
newcomers, you know what I mean?
Just to introduce them like wedid the other day uh for a
Sunday, we just brought a coupleof gentlemen up who introduced
(26:32):
themselves.
Uh, they're from a differentethnic background, right?
And uh it's just that visual ofjust expecting people who um
have walked in through the doorsof the church, who found us,
found out about us through thewebsite and through friends, uh,
has been just greatlyencouraging, I guess.
It just helps, I guess, feed themission heat.
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
How do you count them?
SPEAKER_05 (26:52):
Uh conversions.
Yeah.
Uh yeah, this is this is one ofthe things we're working on this
year.
We we just did our kind ofquarterly reviews and heading to
2026.
What are we going to get getinto?
And our mission pastor said,like, one thing we're gonna have
to get really clear on is ourdefinitions of um what what what
will we count?
Um and so that um that will befor us.
(27:14):
It's someone who's made aprofession of faith and who
remains part of a worshipingcommunity in six months' time,
will be what we count as aconversion.
Um and yeah, is that we Anglicanor I think that's good.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
I think I mean for us, we've just I mean I think we
did this in 2017.
We just started a Google Doc.
Okay.
We just wrote down the name ofevery person who became
Christian, and and so if we'vegot 2017 and then the names of
the people who became Christianthat year, and then 2018, and
it's been like that.
(27:47):
And then we've occasionally goneback and um you know how you can
on uh on a Word document orwhatever, you can uh shade the
colour behind we've shaded thecolour red, green, or orange,
depending on whether or not weknow they're still walking with
Christ.
You know, and it might be thatthey've left our church but
(28:08):
they've joined another church,but and we know that they're
still walking with Christ.
And so we can actually see okay.
So I mean we I think we're doingsomething quite similar to what
you're doing.
Yeah, so good.
We want to recognise that thereis gonna be a four soils thing
going on, and and and it's notthat everyone who makes a
profession, but but we reallywant to see people both start
and stick.
SPEAKER_05 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, we want to we want to chart uh
recommitments, yeah.
Like that's something somethingnot to be scoffed at.
It's like beautiful to see wehad some couple uh in their in
their 50s share at church, youknow, we we we just disappeared
from church a decade ago and andwe're just back now.
SPEAKER_04 (28:42):
And um that's awesome.
Yeah.
To be not just for that tohappen, but for you to profile
that yeah platform is isexciting.
In terms of because thatactually put I mean, this
question of how do I encouragemembers of my church to be on
the front foot evangelistically,to be thinking, oh I I should
(29:03):
talk to somebody else about thatcoming back.
SPEAKER_05 (29:06):
Oh, I was just gonna say recommitments, uh
professions of faith, and thenpeople who are still following
Jesus six months later, thatthat last one is what we'll take
the five percent from.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah, I was just gonna say, just speaking to the
fact that uh whether it's afirst-time commitment or a
recommitment, the story to tellis one of gospel transformation.
And I think that's again, as Ijust think about like every
Sunday, we have this wonderfulopportunity to highlight the
work of the gospel in people'slives that is real.
And so I I don't want our churchto get caught up on is that part
(29:36):
of the five percent or not partof the five percent?
I just want to rejoice and saythat's a staff discussion.
Yeah, that's a staff discussion.
Um, but as a as a church-widecelebration, let's just rejoice
that God is at work seeingpeople converted or reconverted
to Him and uh and is in the theprocess of changing their life.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
I share in that view as well because I I believe that
the 5% can be um arbitrarilycounted, and then you can simply
say and be proud of that aboutthat number, but there's more is
more of a story to tell.
Uh for example, there's a personuh who's been part of our
follow-up course after theDiscover course who's now coming
at a real crossroads as towhether Jesus really is her true
Lord and Savior, or whether youknow there's been other
(30:15):
commitments like family and anduh her cultural background who
that actually elevates uh aboveJesus.
And I think because of herwrestle with this, I I think
it's it's uh it's much moreclearer, I think, for us to know
that gospel transformation ishappening and that that's the
thing to be rejoiced about.
SPEAKER_04 (30:32):
Ben, I I didn't get to hear how you were thinking
about the counting.
I asked Brett, but didn't askyou.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
Yeah, I mean, similar to to what Brett's
thinking, I we keep uh uh atrack of the people and the
names of people who have madefirst time commitments and
recommitments.
Um uh the the the many of themare youth.
Uh uh there's a been anincreasing number of them who
are adults and young adults thisyear, which has been an
(30:56):
encouragement to.
Us um but keeping a track ofthem and then as a staff just
reviewing praying for them.
I like your colour system.
I don't know, maybe we'll go forsomething like that and help us
along the road.
Yeah, to follow up.
But but we run after discover,we run the uh more to discover,
uh, which is you know it's thegoal is establishing new
Christians in the faith, and sowe see that the the commitment
(31:20):
is really just the start of thejourney.
And so it's almost like you wantto do your five percent based on
two years ago.
Like what was it, where were weat two years ago, and are they
still following Christ today?
So it's it's hard to do it basedon this year's professions of
faith.
SPEAKER_04 (31:34):
But I suppose just in in trust in God that people
have made when you do the colourthing on the Google document,
you think, oh, actually, well,really it was only four percent
last year.
Yeah, I thought it was a review.
But really, it was only fourwhen I've when I've kind of had
to score a few off, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah, which is why I feel like the five percent, it's
great to have, but I don't wantto be mastered by the five
percent.
And I want it to be a goal thatwe're working towards.
And I when I presented it toParish Council, they were
saying, Why only five percent?
And that and that's the reactionthat we often um we often
receive from people who have gota heart for the gospel.
Um you said, but if we just getfive percent, we of course we
(32:12):
want more than that, but that'salways the response.
And so what it what I'm hopingthat the five percent does for
us at Narrowbean is it justdrives mission in people's
hearts and evangelism.
So they're not thinking, oh, myfriend can be one of the five
percent.
They're thinking my friend canmove from death to life in
Christ.
SPEAKER_04 (32:28):
I'm actually hoping that it will change the
conversation, do you know?
And I and I think it's alreadychanged the conversation in
terms of what do we value.
I mean, sorry, we know that whatwe value is seeing people saved
and growing Christ.
But I think as ministers, it'sactually become what we value is
how big is my church.
Do you know?
Whereas if we really valueseeing people saved, you know,
(32:52):
and how can I help you and howcan you help me see more people
saved, then that's actually thethe key metric that that will do
what the Gospel Coalition inAustralia are asking us to do,
which does to double the numberof real Christians in Australia
in 20 years.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
I was just gonna tell a story that at the start
of start of this year, uh, wehad a staff member leave very
suddenly and he was overseeingthe mission side of things at
our church.
And so I felt resigned at thisstart of this year to think, oh,
nothing's gonna happen in thatspace.
And I was just super encouragednow, reflecting back and
preparing to come on uh today tosee the way that uh even without
(33:32):
a particular focus in the firsthalf of the year, God still was
bringing people from death tolife in Christ.
Uh, we had one lady who's beeninvolved in uh pre uh preparing
Auslan Alpha, uh so for the deafcommunity, and she said, Can we
run it as a soft launch here atNarrabeen?
And I said, Great, let's dothat.
People became Christians,they've followed that up with
(33:52):
another course, another 10people.
Uh, they're now running it atSt.
John's down at Mona Vale.
Uh, we ran Youth Alpha at thestart of the year where people
gave their lives to Christ.
Uh, and it it just generatedthat reminder that mission is
not an arm of what we do as achurch.
This is the culture that we wantto um create and um um cultivate
(34:16):
in our church is one of mission.
Uh so it was just a really goodreminder for me.
You you take the person out.
Does mission still drive throughthe culture of your church?
And that's what we've beenencouraged by this year.
SPEAKER_04 (34:27):
Praise God for that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:29):
Brett, do you want to leave us in prayer about
churches everywhere and seeingpeople saved?
SPEAKER_05 (34:34):
Yeah, love to.
Uh Lord and Father, uh, you longfor people to be welcomed home,
and we long to see that as well.
Tribes and nations standingaround the throne, uh lifting
their voices in praise to you.
We are uh driven by the longingto see you glorified for uh you
have fearfully and wonderfullycreated us and sustain us.
(34:55):
And so, Lord, in the finite timethat you give us, uh finite
hours in our day, finite energyin the tank, we praise that we
would use it wisely andcourageously.
We pray that uh we would use itdiscerningly uh to seek and save
the lost and see them uh shoredup in their faith until they
reach the shores of eternity.
In Jesus' name we pray.
(35:16):
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
SPEAKER_04 (35:18):
Hey, my guests today on the Pastor's Heart, Brett
Middleton and Ben Molyneux andDan Ow.
Uh, look, I just want to suggestthat uh if you've listened to
this episode today, that thiscould be an episode to watch
with your staff team, or perhapseven to get some of your key
leaders at church to watch tohelp raise the evangelistic
temperature and raise yourchurch's goals on what would
(35:40):
what could we do to see thisgoal practically of 5% cut
against average serviceattendance saved each year?
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
We set an evangelism target, but now what?
I am imagining quite a fewministers are thinking, wow, a
5% goal.
Did we do that?
Did we say that?
We haven't seen anyone convertedin years.
So what do we do?
Where do we start?
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, our gueststoday, Brett Middleton, Ben
Molyneux, and Dan Or.
(00:57):
The Sydney Anglican Synod hasset a target of growing by 5%
per year against average serviceattendance through conversion
growth.
Here's how Archbishop Rafaeloutlined it to the Synod in
September.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
The 5% number arises from a national conversation
that has been initiated by theGospel Coalition Australia
across like-mindeddenominations.
It is not a way of telling Godwhat to do.
It is a way of making everylocal church ask, what should we
do?
And the answers will be asdifferent as the churches.
(01:33):
In a church of 300, a prayerfulgoal of 15 new Christians in
church every year for five yearsis enough to create real change.
In a church of 80 people, aprayerful goal of 5% growth in
new believers would be thinkingabout four people a year.
And that might not require arevolution in what is happening
(01:55):
now, but it might be a spur anda focus and generate prayer and
expectation and perseverance inthe work of making Jesus known
to others.
SPEAKER_04 (02:06):
That's Sydney Archbishop, Archbishop Kanishka
Raffle.
In parallel to that, the GospelCoalition Australia has set a
target of doubling the number ofevangelicals in Australia over
20 years.
Something that could only beachieved through most of our
congregations having aconversion rate of 5% against
average service attendance.
(02:26):
Now, I know there are peoplewatching around the world, and
some I've spoken to have beenencouraged by this bold step
forward, and so perhaps yourindividual staff team or
congregation is thinking, howcould we do that?
How could we adopt that 5%benchmark conversion goal as
well?
Well, Brett Middleton of St.
Luke's Miranda is with us, BenMolyneux of St.
Faith's in Narrabeen, and DanAu, who is the site pastor for
(02:49):
Cornerstone Presbyterians Campusat Cogra.
Now, let us start with thePastor's Heart, gentlemen.
And um actually, when I raisedthis coming on and having this
conversation with each of you,each of you were a little
apprehensive.
And uh well, let's start withyou, Brett.
Why apprehensive?
SPEAKER_05 (03:04):
Um, I think when you first raised it with me, you you
you wanted some people who uhwere achieving the 5% uh
already.
And um we had the conversationsaid I'm just I'm not that guy,
you know, our church isn'tseeing that many conversions
every year.
I could probably do the otherpodcast, which is the um talking
to guys who who aren't achievingit and how how we're moving
forward.
(03:24):
So I guess at a heart level,it's the feeling of um uh yeah,
I'm I'm I'm I you know you don'talways feel like you belong in
the conversation when you're achurch that's struggling to see
people, particularly adults, uhcoming to Christ.
Um, but there's there'ssomething energizing about it as
well.
Five percent.
I don't know how you guys findBen.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think for me, uh similarfeelings uh to what Brett just
expressed.
I think Brett threw me under thebus and suggested I come on the
show as well.
Thanks for hearing you.
Uh and yet there's somethingabout seeing people converted
that actually just stirs myheart and uh and just reminds me
of what we're doing and whywe're doing it.
And so seeing people convertedis the thing that fires me up in
(04:08):
front of the case.
And so yours too saying I'm notthere yet, but I want to be.
Not there yet, but yeah,definitely want to be.
SPEAKER_04 (04:13):
Yeah, and I mean, Dan, yeah, you're a Presbyterian
watching us have this congregconversation of the Anglicans is
exactly what your pastor'sheart.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, I used to train in a in an Anglican
college, and but now I'm in aPresbyterian church.
Um, I mean, we're known as adenomination for many wonderful
things, you know, like worshipand good governance and all the
rest.
Good governance.
But listen, when it comes toreaching out and when it comes
to making disciples, especiallyconversion growth, we we are not
always on the front foot of thatin a vibrant sort of way.
(04:43):
And so, very much like Brettshared, I where there's a great
deal of fear and trepidation interms of coming into this
conversation.
Um, I don't think the 5% uhbenchmark has been something
that's at the forefront of ourminds, and particularly for the
Cogra context, we're a fairlynew church.
We've only been just around forfour years, you know, um, as a
site location plant of theCornerstone Church family.
(05:03):
And therefore, as we've uh seengrowth in terms of uh people
coming to our church, the uhimpetus and the agenda for
evangelism, it always remains tobe a challenge.
And that's why I'm sort ofscared but also excited about
this conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (05:17):
So, Brett, um uh, should we have an evangelistic
target?
Um, and as you kind of firstraised it with your staff team,
um to play that conversation.
I mean, just just pretend.
This is just us.
How'd the conversation go?
SPEAKER_05 (05:31):
Um, people are uh have some squeamishness about a
5% conversion target.
And I think naturally I wouldhave something similar.
And yet I think as a church, wecount almost everything else
with a clear conscience.
We count how much money peoplegive, how many people came to
church, uh, we count ourbaptisms and conversions, we
count how many funerals andweddings we might do in any
(05:52):
given year, we count how manypeople are in our Bible study
groups, and none of that has thesame vibe, yet all of that is
equally a work of the HolySpirit within our church.
Uh so to a conversions.
Um I'm really willing to countconversions, yeah.
Partly because of uh the shame Ihad when we did a church uh
consult.
Five years ago became rector,did the consult, um, comes back
(06:16):
with a grid of you know, greensand oranges and reds, depending
on how well you're doing acrossvarious um areas of church life,
and came back expecting thiswill reveal you know how great
this church is that I've beenpart of for 10 years, that I'm
now the rector of.
Um and there was a sea of youknow, oranges and greens and one
grey box with a big questionmark in it, which was how many
(06:39):
people have come to faith, howmany adults have come to faith?
And that was the one thing thatI couldn't give an answer to to
our shame, just to think thatthe most important thing that
our church should be doing, thereason God has planted a church
on this corner of Miranda islike to see the loss welcomed
into a healthy church.
Yeah, um, it was the one thingwe weren't paying attention to.
(07:00):
So um happily five percent goal,great, keep me accountable.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
Ben uh in counting, yeah.
Yeah, I think the again, I thinkmy reflection is yes, of course,
I think we want to we want tocount, we want to make sure that
we uh I agree with everythingBrett said there.
Newcomers, of course, we countnewcomers who come in the door.
Uh why wouldn't we count thepeople who have made first-time
(07:29):
professions of faith?
Um, I think the hesitation froma lot of people is they feel
that that's taking away thesovereignty of God or something
like that.
If you set a goal or you uhyou're you're looking at a
particular number uh that youmight be limiting God or playing
God, but really it's justhelping us drive that mission
(07:49):
heat in a way that helps us todo what we're called to be doing
as a church, promoting thegospel and seeing people saved.
SPEAKER_04 (07:56):
I mean, I'm just thinking that line, you count
what you value, but also theydid count your necks.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Yeah, that's right.
We I I love our denomination asa as I love being a Presbyterian
uh pastor.
Uh but there is some vital areasthere to work on and to improve.
One of the things is that eachyear we have to submit to church
officers what we call a form S,which describes all our
statistics.
That's what the S stands for, isstatistics on the attendance,
(08:24):
statistics on the uh demographicbreakdown and so on.
But the one thing that itdoesn't ask for uh is the number
of conversions.
And so I really relate to that,that need and that urgency and
the importance, the thecelebration value.
Part of the part of it is thecomplexity of the task.
What is a conversion?
You know, you have a person whocomes from the United Church
(08:45):
over and get and believes in thegospel, would that be a
conversion like that?
Or having a person with like areformed you know journey, would
that count as a conversion?
Recommitments absolutely aswell, but like how do we draw
that uh line?
But I do think that it is worthum uh having the criteria for
what makes a gospel transformedperson, maybe over a period of
(09:06):
time.
And I really like what you saidbefore, Ben, about just having
it like a two-year measurement,you know what I mean?
So that you see the fruitbecause it's not the numbers
that are as beautiful as the asthe story behind that number.
Um, and it's a bit likegardening, isn't it?
Like you just you don't want youdon't just want to see new plans
and buds grow, but the overalluh beauty of the garden is
really what uh what you want tovalue.
(09:28):
So that's what I'd say.
SPEAKER_04 (09:29):
Tell us about the conversation and how it's played
out in your context, uh Ben.
SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
Yeah, and Narrabin, I think the 5% hasn't been uh
hasn't jarred our staff team atall.
I think there's not that we'reachieving it, but just the
setting a goal and uh havingsomething to aim towards, I
think has been an encouragementfor our staff team.
Uh we've been part of the ReachAustralia network for the last
(09:53):
sort of four or five years, anduh they've been helping us to
think through what what ishealthy with regards to the
number of conversions.
And so I think those uhconversations have probably
enabled this you know morerecent move by the synod to help
us to receive that five percentand to to work towards achieving
that together.
SPEAKER_04 (10:13):
And Dan, what about you as you look on and what have
you thought?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
Well, the five percent is not something that's
been on the forefront of ourminds or our agenda.
We haven't pushed like athrough-a-synod type of
influence to actually it'sreally just what's going on in
your private discussions here.
Yeah, uh in-house, I guess,behind the leadership, it's
always good to sort of aim forcertain like numbers and
percentages.
Um, but I we've noticed that asa church plant uh who's been
around for now for just a fewyears, we've tried a lot of ways
(10:42):
to reach out, uh,evangelistically and uh
missionally, um, throughconversations, connections, and
so on.
But now that the resource isexpansive, like it, we we we are
investing in so much differentideas here and there.
It's actually quite uh we feelthe burden of having to bring
some sort of focus, I guess, atleast for us at Cogra.
(11:05):
So we do have the the weeklyplay group and we've got the
Christmas events, we've gotcommunity exposure and so on.
But the the resource uh questionis is really uh quite key.
Uh we had a meeting with ourministry leaders uh a few months
ago, and we identified the thegap in the flow uh of newcomers
to uh mature Christians in ourchurch.
(11:27):
Where is the gap uh mostevident?
And we noticed that it was inthe conversion aspect where
we're quite good at the connectand the contact, pretty good
with church life and theequipping.
But when it came to actuallyseeing people save, the
expectation, like you said, wenoticed that there was something
quite glaring.
And so we had to do somethingabout that.
SPEAKER_04 (11:46):
Brett, what about you there?
How have you what's the nextstage of the conversation in
your team?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (11:51):
Yeah.
Uh uh, so I think um uh with ourteam, but it's asking questions
around, first of all, uh uh thedoes the church understand the
purpose of the church?
I said this is the culturalquestion.
Um, well, actually, taking astep back from that, I'd
probably say it's it's a realheart question for each of the
staff.
Yes, like we have a burningdesire to see um people come to
(12:12):
Christ um across all the seasonsof uh their lives, and then a
staff alignment question.
Do we all agree on uhdefinitions and targets and that
we as a staff And whether or notwe should have a target, whether
or not we should have it andplay that discussion out for us,
yeah.
Um Yeah, that that discussionwasn't difficult.
(12:32):
I think the difficulty comeswhen you're you start to say
because of the target, this iswhere resources get allocated.
And then you start to get a bitof playing off of uh, but
there's there's various goodsthat the church is doing.
And to be able to say, but butwe've all agreed on the greater
good of seeing seeing the losssaved.
I think I think that's the morechallenging staff alignment
(12:53):
discussion.
What have been some of theawkward discussions there?
Um, probably around you know, uhbeloved programs, you might say.
And to say uh um this program,uh I guess in the back of our
minds is a coalface meaning thecommunity program.
Are we seeing any peopletranslate from that program into
(13:14):
um our evangelism engines, intothe church life?
Um, is it is it working as partof the pathway or not?
Um, which you you try not tohave the discussion of should it
exist or not, but what what arewe doing within it?
And uh can we have betteralignment on the purpose of the
program, people saying this iswhy it exists, do we have the
right people that are part ofit?
Um are we um uh we we've had thesimilar discussion.
SPEAKER_04 (13:38):
We we we we've had an art show called the Heart of
Annandale art show for a numberof years.
And it's been really good interms of culture of awareness of
our church, but we've actuallyhad to ask the hard question has
it actually led to anybody besaved?
Do you know?
And and it's uh been a majoreffort to put on.
And so we've just pressed pauseon that, you know.
(14:00):
Um we've not necessarilyabandoned it forever, but we've
just pressed pause and we wefound crazily we we ran a um a
carnival on the 31st of October,which happened to be the same
night as Halloween, and therewas just kids everywhere walking
up and down our suburbanstreets.
Yeah.
And we've had um one new familyjoin Sunday morning and another
(14:26):
kid come to youth group, and Ithought, oh, actually, for much,
much less effort, we've had asignificantly better result.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Yeah, we can relate to that.
I mean, in uh Kogra has uhenjoyed a great location.
Our site is uh opposite a largearea hospital and adjacent to
the square.
And for the first couple ofyears of our starting uh
Cornerstone Cogra, we'vefeatured a large exposing
Christmas event out in thecommunity, which drew like a lot
of people.
(14:58):
Yeah, and for a few hours.
Um lots of goodwill, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lots of um uh like light contactuh uh exposure of our name to
the community, which is great.
But as we assessed uh inprevious years that's passed, we
noticed that there's been somuch effort that's been put in,
(15:18):
but for fairly little outcome orresult of people who've joined
the church.
Uh, and that's what's led usthis year to sort of pivot our
evangelism strategy.
We still have the Christmasoutreach event, but it's a lot
more light touch and low-key,you know what I mean?
Uh inviting our friends andfamily and things like that, you
know, to uh we still havesomething on in the square,
(15:38):
especially when we got councilapproval for it, um, and the
grant as well that goes with it.
So that's been that's been uh anencouraging pivot.
SPEAKER_04 (15:46):
What are some of the programs you've had to sort of
say this is helping us as afunnel event and this one isn't?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (15:53):
Um well it it starts, I think, for us is by uh
defining which are the real uhconversion engines within our
church life and allowing thoseto be a bully in our calendar
and shifting everything to theside.
Uh so that would be for us uhExplore Life, which we try we
run twice a year at the moment.
Um, and uh that becomes a bigyou know focal point.
(16:14):
We we make sure there's notother programs, even in the lead
up to that, that it's justdrawing energy and attention
away.
So it just gets pride of placein our church calendar.
Um uh and also our services tothink they're they're really the
secondary regular conversionengine that we want to have.
Uh so we always want ourservices to um have an eye to
those who are seeking out Jesus.
(16:35):
So it's partly for us thinkingthese are the ones uh that um
get to be the bully in thecalendar around everything else.
Um we we haven't uh had toreally close down anything, but
we have shifted the way we thinkabout some of them.
So for instance, Christmas andEaster were for us um something
that we thought this is wherethe loss can be saved.
(16:56):
Uh we've noticed plenty ofpeople uh who are not Christians
coming along, but no onetranslates from them into uh
anything further.
So we've changed how we thinkabout them, which changes how we
resource them, to okay, we wantthem to be uh places where
people's you know evangelisticmuscles are exercised.
Uh so they become uh placeswhere our our regulars are
(17:17):
encouraged to invite people.
It gets the flywheel and theenergy of evangelism going
rather than thinking this isgoing to translate directly to
our our explore life course.
So it does change how youresource them and the
expectations that you have onparticular programs.
SPEAKER_04 (17:31):
How's it thinking about playing out for you, Ben?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yeah, look, I think at Narrowbean, we probably
haven't done the work yet on uhreviewing the different
ministries and differentoutreach programs that we have.
Though one just reflection, Isuppose, in just hearing us talk
about this is some of the uhsome of our longer-term
programs.
We run a thing called theCommunity Pantry that we've run,
uh, a meal for people in need inour local community.
Uh you know, we don't see peoplenecessarily becoming Christians
(17:56):
at that, but it does providewonderful opportunity to express
the love of Christ in our widercommunity.
And I was reminded this year, wehad um uh one man become a
Christian recently uh in August.
And he's been a part of ourchurch community for about 10
years, just in and out over thecourse of those 10 years, in
different uh parts of umdifferent ministries, coming
(18:18):
along to church regularly, butit was a really long time of uh
friendship, buildingrelationship with him, uh, to
get him to even come along toour Discover course, which
finally happened, and then hebecame a Christian.
So I'm just reminded as we talkabout the different programs and
even the art show that you talkabout, getting people on site
and having those opportunitiesuh to be Christians in and
(18:41):
invite um the community ontoyour church grounds is just a
wonderful opportunity in and ofitself to start those
relationships that might take along time for people to turn to
Christ.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (18:52):
One of the things that 5% does provide with our
programs is assessment windows.
So I think about my kids'minister who'll say, We're gonna
we're gonna restart thisplaytime thing that we've had a
crack at at various times overthe decades.
Um, but if we haven't seenpeople come from playtime into
our wider church life withinthree to five years, um we're
gonna make the call that it'sit's not working.
(19:14):
We're we're not at the stage ofsort of we know which ones to
close down.
We're at the stage of we knowhow to assess them uh in the
finite time that we have.
Are we doing the right things tosee the loss saved?
SPEAKER_04 (19:26):
Um how are you seeing it play out amongst the
different demographics?
Um I mean, we're hearing, and wehad a conversation here the
other day, um, about uh the waveof interest we're getting
amongst the young adults, andparticularly young adult men.
But we're not seeing the samewave um with the older
(19:49):
demographics, and yet I want toincrease uh I mean I'll give you
our one.
W the easy thing for us to saywould be to say we want to see
ten ten people become Christianthis year, you know.
Um but it's a harder thing forus to say we want to see five
people connected with ourevening congregation become
(20:09):
Christian this year.
And here's the hard one we wantto see five people connected
with our morning congregationbecome Christian this year
because we're not as active inthat demographic.
Yeah, Ben.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
Uh yeah, so again at Narrowbean, I think we're
following the trend of whatwe're seeing in wider Sydney and
maybe around the world, is thatwe are uh noticing a lot of
young adults in particular andpraise God coming to church.
Um we were part of uh the Hopefor the Beaches campaign with
the Anglican churches across thebeaches uh during August, and
(20:43):
that was a wonderful opportunitywhere we saw uh we had an event
for young people uh at St.
Luke's grammar school, and therewere many people who responded
to the gospel on that night.
The senior ministers werecooking the sausages that day,
so uh we got to experience it aswell just from uh from behind
the distance.
Yeah.
But it was a wonderful uh night,but it but yeah, it was targeted
(21:04):
really obviously at the youngpeople in our community.
Um I I think probably uh the uhfrom again from a narrowband
perspective, we have connectionswith the uh Warriwood Anglican
(21:46):
village, uh with the theWarvetts, Upper Coloro Plateau.
Uh, we have chaplains in each ofthose uh villages, and uh
thinking through evangelisticstrategies for those villages is
something that we need to dowork on into the future because
there are just greatopportunities in each of those
with full-time chaplain uhchaplaincy teams.
SPEAKER_04 (22:05):
But how do we raise the the mission heat amongst
that over 40 demographic Brett?
SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
We resonate a lot with that demographic dilemma
that you've just posed.
Uh one of the special things,it's not unique to Cornerstone,
but one of the things that Ilove about our church is that we
are an intergenerational localchurch community.
And it's maybe for that reason,dominantly, that we haven't um
uh started an evening servicejust yet, because we wanted to
preserve the intergenerationaldynamic.
(22:34):
The upside, of course, is thatthe community really gets to
know each other well, like thefamilies and older uh
demographics um ministering tothe younger and so on.
But the challenging thing is,therefore, is that it seems to
be one segment of thedemographic, like the young
adults who come to theevangelism events to discover
courses and so on.
Now, fortunately, we've realizedalmost even by accident that by
(22:56):
uh by us running a variety ofevangelistic uh uh programs and
activities, um, we've actuallyseen folks in the older
demographics, the 40-year-oldsand above, who've joined uh our
church since.
So, most recently, for example,we've started uh an easy English
ministry on a Sunday afternoon,which has drawn together some
seniors.
And we also have uh small, uh, Iguess smaller groups from
(23:18):
existing growth groups, connectgroups, what we what we call
them, uh, to take a group ofpeople aside and actually do
Christianity explained withthem.
Uh so that we have found moretraction, I suppose, but it's
it's not a uh widespread churchannounced kind of thing, but it
it does get notified.
But um, these are the kinds ofstrategies that we've noticed
(23:39):
that has has actually producedsome fruit.
SPEAKER_05 (23:41):
Yeah.
Um one practical thing that wehave done is being intentional
about the the groups of peoplethat we invite into our um our
Explore Life course who arealready Christians.
So um it's an open invite,obviously, and people are
inviting their their friends in,but then grabbing particular
Bible study groups and saying,Would you like to come along
(24:03):
this time around?
And um for people who have beenpart of that and have seen
people come to Christ there,yeah, and uh by the grace of
God, it's been various agegroups who who have come to
Christ in that.
I think it's good for them to beable to see it and just say,
like, God is not done with mebecause I've hit a certain age
and not done with my networks.
(24:25):
Um and then they're chatting atmorning tea about what what I
saw happen last year.
And and they can next timearound, they'll they'll they'll
sort of I'm gonna bring a friendto this one because I've seen it
play out.
Um the reality at St.
Luke's is I would say thefurther you get from youth
group, um, the just the lesspeople you're seeing become
Christians around you.
So last year we had 30 under 18sbecome Christians, five over
(24:47):
eighteens become Christians.
So this is this vastdiscrepancy.
So you want to see that, you'vegot that same d dilemma of the
the demographic thing that I'mtalking about.
Yeah.
Yes.
And um, but the the more peoplecan see that the spirits of work
and Jesus is calling peoplehome, whether that's live at the
group or whether it's beingcelebrated up the front, um, I
think that goes some way to getthe energy happening across
(25:11):
across age groups.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
I'll just um jump in and say I think one of the
things that we've identified isthat we as a staff team get very
excited when we hear of peoplewho have become Christians, but
we need to work harder attelling the stories.
And so I don't think we've uhthis is something that we're
looking in the future, is justhow do we each month highlight
uh whether it's a video or apersonal testimony of someone on
(25:32):
a video or in the flesh orsomething like that, that just
helps the wider church to feeloh, God is on the move, God's
doing something.
People are being converted.
The the gospel really is seeingpeople move from death to life
and actually share the stories.
And yeah, whether they're uh ofan older demographic or a
younger demographic, um, I thinkfor anyone at this point, just
(25:53):
seeing people converted is agreat encouragement for
Christians, and it really doesstir their faith in Christ and
stirs their trust in the gospelthat it that it that it works in
seeing people move from death tolife.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
That line of um stats are for staff and stories
of the congregation.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
I think we are about as good as the stories that we
tell.
And uh the great advantage aboutbeing a site or a lead pastor is
that you do have control overwhat gets displayed on the
Sunday service.
And so what we've doneoccasionally and regularly uh at
COGRA was to feature ourstories, even if they're just
newcomers, you know what I mean?
Just to introduce them like wedid the other day uh for a
Sunday, we just brought a coupleof gentlemen up who introduced
(26:32):
themselves.
Uh, they're from a differentethnic background, right?
And uh it's just that visual ofjust expecting people who um
have walked in through the doorsof the church, who found us,
found out about us through thewebsite and through friends, uh,
has been just greatlyencouraging, I guess.
It just helps, I guess, feed themission heat.
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
How do you count them?
SPEAKER_05 (26:52):
Uh conversions.
Yeah.
Uh yeah, this is this is one ofthe things we're working on this
year.
We we just did our kind ofquarterly reviews and heading to
2026.
What are we going to get getinto?
And our mission pastor said,like, one thing we're gonna have
to get really clear on is ourdefinitions of um what what what
will we count?
Um and so that um that will befor us.
(27:14):
It's someone who's made aprofession of faith and who
remains part of a worshipingcommunity in six months' time,
will be what we count as aconversion.
Um and yeah, is that we Anglicanor I think that's good.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
I think I mean for us, we've just I mean I think we
did this in 2017.
We just started a Google Doc.
Okay.
We just wrote down the name ofevery person who became
Christian, and and so if we'vegot 2017 and then the names of
the people who became Christianthat year, and then 2018, and
it's been like that.
(27:47):
And then we've occasionally goneback and um you know how you can
on uh on a Word document orwhatever, you can uh shade the
colour behind we've shaded thecolour red, green, or orange,
depending on whether or not weknow they're still walking with
Christ.
You know, and it might be thatthey've left our church but
(28:08):
they've joined another church,but and we know that they're
still walking with Christ.
And so we can actually see okay.
So I mean we I think we're doingsomething quite similar to what
you're doing.
Yeah, so good.
We want to recognise that thereis gonna be a four soils thing
going on, and and and it's notthat everyone who makes a
profession, but but we reallywant to see people both start
and stick.
SPEAKER_05 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, we want to we want to chart uh
recommitments, yeah.
Like that's something somethingnot to be scoffed at.
It's like beautiful to see wehad some couple uh in their in
their 50s share at church, youknow, we we we just disappeared
from church a decade ago and andwe're just back now.
SPEAKER_04 (28:42):
And um that's awesome.
Yeah.
To be not just for that tohappen, but for you to profile
that yeah platform is isexciting.
In terms of because thatactually put I mean, this
question of how do I encouragemembers of my church to be on
the front foot evangelistically,to be thinking, oh I I should
(29:03):
talk to somebody else about thatcoming back.
SPEAKER_05 (29:06):
Oh, I was just gonna say recommitments, uh
professions of faith, and thenpeople who are still following
Jesus six months later, thatthat last one is what we'll take
the five percent from.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah, I was just gonna say, just speaking to the
fact that uh whether it's afirst-time commitment or a
recommitment, the story to tellis one of gospel transformation.
And I think that's again, as Ijust think about like every
Sunday, we have this wonderfulopportunity to highlight the
work of the gospel in people'slives that is real.
And so I I don't want our churchto get caught up on is that part
(29:36):
of the five percent or not partof the five percent?
I just want to rejoice and saythat's a staff discussion.
Yeah, that's a staff discussion.
Um, but as a as a church-widecelebration, let's just rejoice
that God is at work seeingpeople converted or reconverted
to Him and uh and is in the theprocess of changing their life.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
I share in that view as well because I I believe that
the 5% can be um arbitrarilycounted, and then you can simply
say and be proud of that aboutthat number, but there's more is
more of a story to tell.
Uh for example, there's a personuh who's been part of our
follow-up course after theDiscover course who's now coming
at a real crossroads as towhether Jesus really is her true
Lord and Savior, or whether youknow there's been other
(30:15):
commitments like family and anduh her cultural background who
that actually elevates uh aboveJesus.
And I think because of herwrestle with this, I I think
it's it's uh it's much moreclearer, I think, for us to know
that gospel transformation ishappening and that that's the
thing to be rejoiced about.
SPEAKER_04 (30:32):
Ben, I I didn't get to hear how you were thinking
about the counting.
I asked Brett, but didn't askyou.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
Yeah, I mean, similar to to what Brett's
thinking, I we keep uh uh atrack of the people and the
names of people who have madefirst time commitments and
recommitments.
Um uh the the the many of themare youth.
Uh uh there's a been anincreasing number of them who
are adults and young adults thisyear, which has been an
(30:56):
encouragement to.
Us um but keeping a track ofthem and then as a staff just
reviewing praying for them.
I like your colour system.
I don't know, maybe we'll go forsomething like that and help us
along the road.
Yeah, to follow up.
But but we run after discover,we run the uh more to discover,
uh, which is you know it's thegoal is establishing new
Christians in the faith, and sowe see that the the commitment
(31:20):
is really just the start of thejourney.
And so it's almost like you wantto do your five percent based on
two years ago.
Like what was it, where were weat two years ago, and are they
still following Christ today?
So it's it's hard to do it basedon this year's professions of
faith.
SPEAKER_04 (31:34):
But I suppose just in in trust in God that people
have made when you do the colourthing on the Google document,
you think, oh, actually, well,really it was only four percent
last year.
Yeah, I thought it was a review.
But really, it was only fourwhen I've when I've kind of had
to score a few off, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah, which is why I feel like the five percent, it's
great to have, but I don't wantto be mastered by the five
percent.
And I want it to be a goal thatwe're working towards.
And I when I presented it toParish Council, they were
saying, Why only five percent?
And that and that's the reactionthat we often um we often
receive from people who have gota heart for the gospel.
Um you said, but if we just getfive percent, we of course we
(32:12):
want more than that, but that'salways the response.
And so what it what I'm hopingthat the five percent does for
us at Narrowbean is it justdrives mission in people's
hearts and evangelism.
So they're not thinking, oh, myfriend can be one of the five
percent.
They're thinking my friend canmove from death to life in
Christ.
SPEAKER_04 (32:28):
I'm actually hoping that it will change the
conversation, do you know?
And I and I think it's alreadychanged the conversation in
terms of what do we value.
I mean, sorry, we know that whatwe value is seeing people saved
and growing Christ.
But I think as ministers, it'sactually become what we value is
how big is my church.
Do you know?
Whereas if we really valueseeing people saved, you know,
(32:52):
and how can I help you and howcan you help me see more people
saved, then that's actually thethe key metric that that will do
what the Gospel Coalition inAustralia are asking us to do,
which does to double the numberof real Christians in Australia
in 20 years.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
I was just gonna tell a story that at the start
of start of this year, uh, wehad a staff member leave very
suddenly and he was overseeingthe mission side of things at
our church.
And so I felt resigned at thisstart of this year to think, oh,
nothing's gonna happen in thatspace.
And I was just super encouragednow, reflecting back and
preparing to come on uh today tosee the way that uh even without
(33:32):
a particular focus in the firsthalf of the year, God still was
bringing people from death tolife in Christ.
Uh, we had one lady who's beeninvolved in uh pre uh preparing
Auslan Alpha, uh so for the deafcommunity, and she said, Can we
run it as a soft launch here atNarrabeen?
And I said, Great, let's dothat.
People became Christians,they've followed that up with
(33:52):
another course, another 10people.
Uh, they're now running it atSt.
John's down at Mona Vale.
Uh, we ran Youth Alpha at thestart of the year where people
gave their lives to Christ.
Uh, and it it just generatedthat reminder that mission is
not an arm of what we do as achurch.
This is the culture that we wantto um create and um um cultivate
(34:16):
in our church is one of mission.
Uh so it was just a really goodreminder for me.
You you take the person out.
Does mission still drive throughthe culture of your church?
And that's what we've beenencouraged by this year.
SPEAKER_04 (34:27):
Praise God for that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:29):
Brett, do you want to leave us in prayer about
churches everywhere and seeingpeople saved?
SPEAKER_05 (34:34):
Yeah, love to.
Uh Lord and Father, uh, you longfor people to be welcomed home,
and we long to see that as well.
Tribes and nations standingaround the throne, uh lifting
their voices in praise to you.
We are uh driven by the longingto see you glorified for uh you
have fearfully and wonderfullycreated us and sustain us.
(34:55):
And so, Lord, in the finite timethat you give us, uh finite
hours in our day, finite energyin the tank, we praise that we
would use it wisely andcourageously.
We pray that uh we would use itdiscerningly uh to seek and save
the lost and see them uh shoredup in their faith until they
reach the shores of eternity.
In Jesus' name we pray.
(35:16):
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
SPEAKER_04 (35:18):
Hey, my guests today on the Pastor's Heart, Brett
Middleton and Ben Molyneux andDan Ow.
Uh, look, I just want to suggestthat uh if you've listened to
this episode today, that thiscould be an episode to watch
with your staff team, or perhapseven to get some of your key
leaders at church to watch tohelp raise the evangelistic
temperature and raise yourchurch's goals on what would
(35:40):
what could we do to see thisgoal practically of 5% cut
against average serviceattendance saved each year?
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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