January 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Indigenous Australians and the Christian Gospel - with Michael Duckett
As we approach ‘Aboriginal Sunday’ (19 January) we focus on the progress of the gospel among the indigenous in Australia.
What are the cultural changes and what openness to Jesus Christ among Indigenous Australians?
Where are we seeing growth? What are the roadblocks and opportunities for the growth of the gospel among the indigenous communities? How much has to do with the soil. How much has to do with things that we can change?
Michael Duckett leads the Anglican Indigenous Ministry at Macarthur/Campbelltown in the far south west of Sydney and Chairs the Sydney Anglican Indigenous Ministry Committee.
Aboriginal Sunday
In 1938 the aboriginal leader William Cooper called on the churches of Australia to mark what he called ‘Aborigines Sunday’ on the Sunday before Australia Day. He ‘requested sermons be preached on this day dealing with the Aboriginal people and their need of the gospel and response to it and we ask that special prayer be invoked for all missionary and other effort for the uplift of the dark people.’
Reach Australia National Conference
Reach Australia’s National Conference is from 19 to 22 May 2025 on the Central Coast of NSW. This year’s theme is URGENT: The Necessary Task of Mission Before Christ Returns. For more info.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today we are talkingIndigenous Australians and the
Christian Gospel with MichaelDuckett.
This coming Sunday isAboriginal Sunday, that's the
Sunday before Australia Day, the26th of January.
We're going to talk about that,but especially the progress of
the gospel among the Indigenous.
Well, particularly here inSydney, what are the cultural
(00:31):
changes, cultural issues, whatis the openness to Jesus Christ
among I'll start again, it isthe pastor's heart and Dominic
Steele.
And today we are talkingIndigenous Australians and the
Christian gospel with MichaelDuckett.
This coming Sunday isAboriginal Sunday, that's the
Sunday before Australia Day, the26th of January.
(00:53):
We'll talk about that, butespecially we're talking the
progress of the gospel among theIndigenous in Sydney, but also
across Australia.
What are the cultural issues?
What is the openness to JesusChrist among Indigenous
Australians?
Where are we seeing growth?
What are the roadblocks andopportunities for the growth of
(01:14):
the gospel among the Indigenouscommunities?
How much does it have to dowith the soil and how much does
it have to do with things thatwe can change?
Michael Duckett is our guest.
He leads the AnglicanIndigenous Ministry in the
MacArthur Campbelltown area ofSydney, in the far southwest of
our city.
Michael, thanks for coming inyour pastor's heart.
(01:37):
Let's talk your pastor's heartfirst for Aboriginal Sunday, and
maybe we could start with thestory of one of my heroes, and I
take it one of your heroes,william Cowper.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
William.
Well, my pastor's heart isdriven by the love of God and it
drives me every day.
And my desire is to see all menreconciled to God.
That's my drive, expressedthrough a whole range of areas.
But for those who have gonebefore, like you said, I
(02:20):
recognise that God has beenworking in this country before
colonisation and then throughgreat men and women over
generations and generations, andI bear the fruits of that today
, because I don't.
He wasn't allowed to go inshops, he had a poor treatment,
(02:40):
but he still stood up for thelove of God to share the good
news of Jesus in a hard timewhere he wasn't really valued or
accepted a lot, but he stillloved to bless and serve all
people.
So I'm very challenged by theexample set to love all people,
(03:04):
regardless of their colour,their denomination.
We don't get caught up on that,it's just all people.
You've got a heartbeat.
God has a plan for you and amessage.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Tell me about him, William Cowper.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, he was a man who apparently was a great
preacher.
He was one of the keyinstigators for a lot of
activity of Aboriginal movementsin regards to especially
Christian movements.
He had input into thedevelopment of NAIDOC for our
community.
So God arose a man like Aldo tostand up and to be a voice of
(03:46):
God's love.
We had a time when it wasn'tvery well received in a society,
but our people responded to itand he's been a valued influence
in our Aboriginal environmentever since he's been highly
respected amongst the widerAboriginal community.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, yes, but particularly amongst the
Christian Aboriginal community.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, and sometimes that's forgotten.
What drove him was the love ofGod.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, I sometimes read, and his Christian story is
almost whitewashed out of yes.
That makes me annoyed.
Does it make?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
you annoyed?
Yeah, because they just take onall the other stuff that they
prefer.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And read that back in .
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes, but the gist of his heartbeat was.
The love of God compelled himand he never shied away from
that.
But later accounts willsometimes disregard his
heartbeat and just look at whathe was able to achieve and what
(04:55):
he did, but not about theheartbeat that drove him to do
those things, just take me intothat heart.
Well, I'm always humbled when Ithink of an old uncle who had
limitations where he could gopublicly.
He was restricted.
He couldn't stay in motels,hotels because they wouldn't let
(05:16):
Aboriginal people sleep in suchplaces.
So he was at the gist ofexperiencing racism, segregation
.
That was his life.
Yet God opened doors for him togo over those boundaries and I
can only say it was God who didthat and he had an amazing
(05:38):
influence because God chose thisman to be his vessel, vessel to
walk across lines thatAboriginal people could not walk
past.
That amazes me, that.
God opened those doors so thathe would have an impact not just
in the Aboriginal community,but throughout all communities.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And he was the one who originally got people
thinking about this AboriginesSunday.
I mean it then kind of died offand has been resurrected more
recently.
Yes, now you were telling meit's Aborigines Sunday every
week at your church.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, so it has in the last few years been
reignited and it's great.
You know, it's a practice thatwas encouraged in the church,
wider church, and now it's beingrevitalised, I guess, and
that's good, because all it doesis encourage our nation to
(06:39):
maybe have a bit moreconsideration, a bit more
awareness of the desperate placethat many of our people find
today.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So what would you like me to do at our church and
what would you like to say toour church, for example, on
Aboriginal Sunday?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think I would say you don't have to do anything.
That's my first point, becauseonce you start saying, oh, we
should be doing this and doingthat, then people often react to
that.
But I would say, if God… itstirs your heart to think, you
know what we could recognisethis day in support of ministry
(07:27):
to Indigenous people in thisland, to be educating, to be
part of that journey.
If you're not learning, thenyou won't be aware of anything
about the plight of Aboriginalpeople in this land.
And as God's people, I believewe should be sensitive to all
the needs of all people, youknow.
We have a large number ofimmigrants in this country.
(07:49):
They have a heartbeat.
They still need to be loved andhear the name of Jesus, as do
Indigenous people of this land.
So it's not either or.
I just think, if we get theopportunity to embrace our
support, encourage the ministryof God's word into these
different groups, I think I'mall for it.
And so Aboriginal Sunday for me.
(08:11):
If that stirs people to thinkyou know what, let us spend some
time praying.
It costs them nothing.
Spend some time praying sharinginformation about the situation
of people at this time.
Wow, let's be specificallypraying about these things the
(08:34):
need of ministry amongstAboriginal people throughout
this country ministry here inSydney, one of the largest
populations in Australia.
Country ministry here in Sydney, one of the largest populations
in Australia, so that God mayhear the prayers of his people
and respond accordingly, as hefeels fit.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So what is the state of play of the ministry of Jesus
amongst Indigenous people inSydney at the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Sydney is a melting pot of everybody.
It's such a diverse culturalmelting pot and, as I said,
sydney's got the highestpopulation of Aboriginal people
in this country and from allover Australia, which then can
bring conflicts because it's notnatural to have all tribes of
(09:24):
all people living in the oneplace and squashed together as
the fruits of the Stalingeneration, putting our people
on missions reserves that's notnatural, which can cause a
conflict often because of thedifferent lands, different
tribes, different languages,different protocols.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So here in Sydney we've got such a… so I kind of
float above all… I don't evennotice any of that, but you're
deeply aware of it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh, yes, yes, because we're tribal people and we know
where we come from generallyand our lands, we know our ties
to our land, where we come from,and when you're living on a
different land, it changes thewhole perspective of how you
relate to your neighbour from adifferent land.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So how does it work for you?
Because there's ties to thenorth coast Wollongong and
they're in the southwest.
Do you know?
Yes, yes, how do you fit in, Doyou know?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yes, I fit in with.
I walk with respect on all landI go on.
So my land's up on the northcoast of New South Wales, so I'm
a foreigner here.
It's not my traditional lands.
I have no, if I can say, rights, and rights means obligations
(10:40):
to care for the.
You know traditional ties,traditional responsibilities.
So I walk on this land herewith respect for those who are
custodians of this land.
When I gather with otherAboriginal people I'm always
mindful I'll share where I comefrom, because that's a greeting.
I'm a Dungaree man, that's astandard connection with
(11:03):
somebody else.
So when they tell me theirtribe, then I get a connection
of okay, how do I relate to thisperson according to where they
come from, out of respect.
And then when I get theopportunity to share, I'll share
wholeheartedly what God has puton my heart.
But I always start off withrespect, recognition of the land
(11:25):
.
Sometimes we'll haveacknowledgements of country.
Welcome to countries where thetraditional people say you are
welcome to come onto this land,you are welcome to talk, to
share.
So if I go to different lands Ialways seek permission, you
know, to sort of go into thereto seek permission before I talk
(11:46):
.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Do you send an email or something like?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
that, oh, I ring up whoever's local there or I'll
see them.
It's just out of respect,especially the old people.
I always try to connect withthem as you talk about these
different tribes.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
has the gospel penetrated those different
tribes differently?
Oh yeah, look, definitely youtalk about these different
tribes.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Has the gospel penetrated those different
tribes differently?
Oh yeah, look, definitely,because the core message of
jesus, death and resurrection,it never changes.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
But how it's shared, which I wasn't meaning about how
the presentation of the gospelis.
I'm just really thinking about,like, could you say, among this
tribe we've seen I don't know30% of people become Christian,
whereas among this tribe we'veonly seen like 2% of people come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, I don't think it's ever been sort of
calculated or assessed, becausethe spread of the gospel in our
community is like water itimpacts wherever it goes and
you'll see poolings of it.
but you can't measure it so it'sreally difficult to.
(12:51):
But over time, throughout allof our different communities in
Australia, I've seen the hand ofGod expressed to many
communities and some opened armsto it.
Others were more resistant andthat's why a ministry in
Indigenous circles is achallenge.
(13:13):
But if it's driven by a heartof love, of grace, compassion,
I've always seen that as beingnot always received but always
appreciated.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Because we're spiritual people, we're very
mindful not to disrespect.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So, regardless of denomination, regardless of
religion, our people aregenerally very respectful.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I mean you've just made a generalisation about
spiritual people and I mean youprobably make a generalisation
about white Australia at themoment, it's quite a secular
people.
Yes, what other generalisationscould you make that well, maybe
not being true in everyspecific case about the
Indigenous community ofAustralia.
(14:07):
You know, in terms of openness,closeness to the gospel, in
terms of, yeah, just howIndigenous people think
differently to white Australians.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh yes.
So this is from my perspective.
I know that the large majorityof Indigenous people in this
land.
They will always share whateverthey have.
Generally, it's just you turnup in different communities.
What they have, they willopenly share.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
A more communal mindset.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, what's yours is mine.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And that's a traditional mindset of caring
for your neighbour, showingrespect and also never having
more than you need.
So when you're hunting andyou're getting a few kangaroos,
you make sure you only getenough to feed who's there.
That's a mindset of the oldpeople, but it still continues
(15:03):
that you know you can havenothing and I know many
Aboriginal people give whatlittle they have to somebody
else.
If they've got their last $20in their pocket, many of them
will just say you need it morethan me.
Take it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Now, if you were coaching me on how to have a
gospel conversation with just anIndigenous guy that I meet down
the street, how would youencourage me to think
differently about that gospelconversation to if I was talking
to a white fella?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
The key to communication for Indigenous
people is it's relationship.
It's relational driven, it'snot information driven.
Now, that's the key differenceI think Too often I'll see in
the Western world they're sodriven by download about Jesus
(16:03):
and I'm not sure for my people.
They want to know about therelationship they can have with
Jesus, not just a download ofinformation so you can tell them
all about the great thingsJesus has done.
And that's great.
But if you're going to talkabout a relationship, my people
want to know well, how doesJesus relate to me?
How does our relationship withJesus change my life?
(16:26):
That's what really matters.
It's not the information ofwhat he has done.
It's what he will do in yourlife.
How does he want to relate toyou today?
He wants to bring hope andpeace to your life.
He wants to bring salvationinto your life not a theological
explanation of.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
How did it work for you?
Because, I mean, you grew upnot Christian and then there was
a pivotal moment when you heardabout Jesus being spat on that
made a big difference for you, Ithink, for me.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I didn't have much knowledge about God.
I went to a youth group, aBaptist one, and I seen a fellow
who ran it strange fellow, buthe always turned up every Friday
faithfully.
And I saw a man.
He loved us, even though wedidn't show much respect to him
(17:25):
or any, actually very littlerespect.
We stole his car.
It wasn't very good for him,but he kept coming back and I
didn't understand that.
And then when I heard thepreaching from a preacher, he
was pretty boring but God speaksthrough his word definitely.
(17:46):
I heard God speak to me aboutthe sacrifice of his son, who
was beaten beyond any man.
He was marred beyond any manand God opened my eyes to the
reality of what God had done forme.
And when his son was spat uponand I was being spat upon, I
thought, wow, that does not makesense, the son of God, who was
(18:10):
part of creation and createdheavens and earth, will be
humiliated for me.
And from that point on I said ifhe can be spat upon for me,
I'll serve him the rest of mylife.
And I haven't turned back sincebecause I had an encounter with
a living God who revealed to mehis love, and I've never turned
(18:33):
back and what was right was arelationship, he said.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I love you so much, I want you to come in a
relationship with me and that'swhat I seek to share with all
people that God's love wasn'tjust a word.
It was an action through hisson and that he wants all men to
come unto him so that they canwalk with him, they can have a
relationship with him.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And that's what really matters for a lot of my
people that God isn't just awhite man's God, it's actually
the God of all people.
He says I love you so much, Idemonstrate it through my son so
that you may be brought backinto relationship through the
love, the forgiveness of oursins through Christ.
(19:19):
I and the Christ.
It's sort of simple, but whatit drives is driven by a heart
of love and that's whatresonates with all people groups
throughout the world.
You come with a heartbeat thatsays I just come to share the
love of God.
People see that and they willhear that before they hear your
(19:39):
words, because they'll sensethat you have a love.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Now we've got four or five intentionally Indigenous
congregations in Sydney, solet's just go through them and
talk about what's going on atthose different churches.
So let's start with your one atMacArthur.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So we've been going on.
Now I don't know it's my 17thyear.
It's been going on for over 20years now, over in Campbelltown.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I'm 22 and you're 17.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, so on paper you think oh it hasn't grown a lot.
It has grown, but notgangbusters.
The growth has been in thehearts and the lives of people.
That's where I see the growth,when a family's impacted and
(20:34):
then you'll see their kids ortheir grandkids come along.
That's what I see as impact.
That's what I see as growth,not numeric growth.
It's just oh, you've been goingfor 20 years and you've
probably grown a smidgen, youknow, like on paper.
Yet I've seen the lives ofpeople, a massive growth when
(20:55):
they turn their lives over toJesus and live for him.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Now for me, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And that's what a success for a minister seeing
people grow Just aggression.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
We'll come back to the other churches in a moment,
but 17 years you'd been there.
What was your journey, fromthat moment of hearing the
sermon where Jesus was spat onto beginning in Christian
ministry?
How did you see?
Ah, what were you doing beforeChristian ministry?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Because you were 18, 20, something like that.
Yes, I was nearly finished myapprenticeship as a baller maker
, so I'm a tradie boy.
My father raised me that way.
You always get a trade sonbefore you.
So I was a baller makerprobably third year.
A little touch of my life.
And the day I finished myapprenticeship I went off to
(21:44):
Bible college.
Wow, the day I finished it Iachieved my trade.
And I said to my apprenticeshipI went off to Bible college.
Wow, the day I finished it Iachieved my trade.
And I said to my dad I'm goingoff to study the Bible.
He thought I was cracked.
He goes what's wrong with you?
I said, no, well, god's gotthis plan for me, dad and I'm
going to go.
So I signed up and wentstraight into Bible college,
straight away at Bimberdine, atCootamundra Aboriginal college.
And that Bimberdeen, atCootamundra Aboriginal College.
(22:09):
And that's when I started myministry training to learn about
the Bible, because I didn'tknow much about the Bible.
So I learnt through Sundayschool.
I taught some Sunday school.
Yeah, that was my Bible collegetraining.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And then full-time ministry after that.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, yep.
So I went to Bimberdeen andthen I went to Emmaus Bible
College I don't know TarleyBible College in Newcastle.
Did three years there becausethat was a non-denominational
college, great church In thebush, so it suited me.
Yep.
And then I went off to EmmausBible College, which was a
Brethren Bible College.
You are eclectic, so I did ayear there and got my degree
(22:45):
with them, I got married, wentto the Kimberleys for a year,
did some parcel work at LaPerouse so I've just had a bit
of a variety and then come backfrom the Kimberleys and then I
spent probably close to 10 yearsin Department of Community
(23:07):
Services working with childrenwho've been through horrific
experiences through care, and soI spent 10 years with them
while still preaching aroundit's hard to get a full-time
ministry for an Aboriginalperson.
There's not much avenues.
And then I started linking upwith the Anglicans and, lo and
(23:34):
behold, I ended up working withthem and signing up in 2008 and
I've been there ever since withthe Sydney Diocese Great.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Now we've gone.
Macarthur, take me over toMount Druitt.
What's going on there?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Mount Druitt.
Rick Manton has been there for25 years, which is a it deserves
a medal.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yep, because I mean well, mount Druitt would have
changed a lot, but that was ahard area of Sydney 25 years ago
.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So that was the largest population of Sydney for
many, many years.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
For Indigenous people .
Yeah yeah, it was also one ofthe lowest socioeconomic areas
in Sydney.
It's a hard gig.
Yeah yeah, it's also one of thelowest socioeconomic areas in
Sydney.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's a hard gig yeah.
And he's been there 25 years.
So it takes me out after RickManton and his family, because
ministry is a family ministryand he's been through drought,
storm.
He's been through that much outthere but he's still there.
And he's known by the community,they know where to go when they
need help.
And he's known by the community, they know where to go when
(24:29):
they need help.
And again, if you look on paperand you go, wow, the church is
like this up and down and that'sthe life of a lot of our
community.
Sometimes there's a good season, then there's a drought, but
the key is that you have thechurch there as a staple point
in that church, into thecommunity, because when there's
death, crisis, suicide,brokenness, homelessness, no
(24:55):
food, they'll always turn up atour churches.
They'll know that they'll dowhatever they can.
If it means going in your owncupboard to get food for family
just to get through the night,they know that they can.
If it means going in your owncupboard to get food for family
just to get through the night.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
They know that they can access that.
Is it the case?
I mean, you just said a momentago that Mount Druitt had high
Indigenous population.
Where are the other highIndigenous populations in Sydney
?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh yes, traditionally it's been Mount Druitt,
followed by the MacArthur innumbers, and then in the city
it's growing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, like in the city Just around us here.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Now Redfern's the hotspot for this nation
traditionally.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, because everything started in Redfern in
a lot of ways.
So Redfern's a central,integral part of the Aboriginal
people in Sydney, let alone.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Australia.
Well, let's go over to Redfernand there's the Living Water
Church there.
Yes, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So Living Water has been going for jeez.
I was there when I firststarted just to support them and
they're doing a great ministry.
They're having a generalministry with a specific focus
on trying to reach Aboriginalpeople and they do a good job.
I applaud them.
(26:21):
But I do know that when itcomes to Indigenous ministry.
But I do know that when itcomes to Indigenous ministry, to
get the best rooting andgrounding in community generally
, it's best driven by Indigenouspeople because they have the
ability to engage with the rootsof the community, where when
(26:44):
you have a mainstream approach,it never gets to the roots of
the community where, when youhave a mainstream approach, it
never gets to the rootsgenerally.
It's just an experience I'veseen.
I've seen many churches try toreach Indigenous people.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it would actually be true with any
particular homogenous group thatif I want to reach an Asian
person, it's going to be easierif I'm Asian, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's a simple principle, but we try to support
the church as best as we canfrom our community perspective
personally, because we want tosee all churches prosper, yeah,
and all people groups, andthey're having a good crack at
trying to reach out to ourcommunity and I respect that and
(27:29):
I'll support it the best.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I can.
Then what's going on down atNowra?
So Nowra's been going on nowfor so is that we've got
MacArthur, mount, druitt,redfern, and is Nowra the fourth
population spot, or is theremany others in between?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
No, we've got Ray Minicon at Glebe and he's been
ministering in the city now forover 20 years.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
There's probably I don't know eight or ten people
involved in that.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, so he's been there.
So the thing I'm proud of isthat when our men step up to
serve the Lord, they're seriousabout it.
So Rick Mann's been 25 years.
Uncle Ray Minicon's been over20 years in the city.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's a hard gig, yeah , and he's still doing it and
we're going to need a newgeneration to come through.
That's the challenge, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
So these men are amazing, men and women, because
remember that they're onlystrong because they're families
yeah, their wives.
That's the key.
So women are always valued inour community because they're
often the strongest ones in manyof our communities.
Our women are amazing and ourmen who serve the Lord are
stronger because they're wives.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They are.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, Brendan Garlis down there.
He's been there for two yearsnow.
He was there two yearspreviously, nine years ago,
doing his MTS.
So he's been there four yearsnow in theory, two years before
and two years now, Young man,he's been doing training at the
well, so he has been involved inrevitalising it, which is again
(29:08):
challenging.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
How does ministry strategy to an Indigenous people
group?
What does it look like and howis it different to what I might
be doing in a more generalistministry?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Well, my view and.
It's all preaching Christ, yes,yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
But what do you actually do?
That's different and how do youthink about it?
That's different.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, I think the key difference is often, let me say
, mainstream churches areprogram driven and they have the
ability to run their program.
They have the people to helpassist in those programs and
they invite community to them.
You know, or they'll have aprogram out where, in Aboriginal
ministries, we're people driven, so we're responding to the
(29:56):
needs of our community andbringing God into that need and
when there's a crisis we'reright there with them, bringing
God into right where people arehurting.
So we're not driven by programs.
If you ask me, do I have a12-month plan?
I don't, and I see fellas whohave five year plans.
I'm just wow, that's amazing.
(30:17):
My plan is just to be walkingwith my people so I'm aware of
what's happening in ourcommunity so that I can respond
with the message of God rightthere where it's needed.
So a bulk of my ministry isactually out in the community
and most of the people in ourchurches is very similar.
(30:39):
We're out there because ourcommunity is so broken and
fragile.
So we have to be there,bringing the hands of God to
where the need is to love, tohave an impact, and then there
might be a little tiny movementof people into the church, but
(31:01):
often it's actually our churchministries in the community.
So if I'm out there with thedrunks in the park, I bring
church to them.
I don't say I come to my church, I come to our church and we
bring the message of God wherethey're at, where they feel
comfortable, because oftenpeople won't go to church.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I've just got two reflections, I mean, on the one
hand, I mean I would hope thatthe program I'm trying to set up
is to enable me to do morepeople ministry, yes, yes, but
there's also I mean there's asize issue that when you're
(31:41):
smaller you can do it in a moread hoc way, but as you get
bigger you've got to get moreorganised.
Yes, but there's also just thefinancial issue.
You know that in the end we'vegot to work to get our churches
to be financially independentyou know, and how do we do it?
(32:02):
I mean, the church, where it's15 or 20, it's got to take money
from outside.
You know, correct?
Yeah, but there's a fragilitythat you're talking about that
necessitates that at the moment.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
The fragility of the people, yeah, but there's a
fragility that you're talkingabout that necessitates that at
the moment.
The fragility of the people.
Yes, and you're exactly right.
When we have a people groupthat's the most discarded group
in this country and decimated bypolicies passed of children
land, everything's been removedand so there's going to need to
be more TLC and therefore,everything's been removed, and
(32:32):
so there's going to need to bemore TLC and therefore it's
going to be more labourintensive.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So the biggest key for our ministry is having a
relationship with our community,which is costly.
Yeah, there's time coststhere's heart costs and when it
comes to financial, we just golive day in, day out, as our
community does, trying to bringGod into a space where they're
(33:05):
so disenfranchised a lot of ourcommunity where they can find
the riches of God.
But you can't buy that.
That's a free gift from Godthrough grace, and that's what
changes lives.
And the biggest key for anAboriginal ministry is having a
relationship, knowing the nameof their dog, knowing the names
of their kids and theirgrandkids.
So when we get invested in ourcommunity, we get to know the
(33:30):
generations of their families.
We get to know theirgrandparents, their tribal lines
, so we just don't know theiraddress.
We know them, we know theirfamilies, we know their
grandkids and when I go down thestreet I can tell the song
lines of all the differentfamilies I run into.
That means I'm invested intotheir song lines and I want to
(33:51):
bring God into their, not justtraditional songlines that have
led them to where they are, towhere they are now, so God
becomes a part of their futuresongline.
So it's hard work, it's apersonal investment, but it's
driven by relationship.
If I can't have a relationshipwith somebody, why would I share
(34:12):
the love of God to them and themessage of Jesus if I don't
actually know them?
Otherwise you give them a flyerand say good luck.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
We are out of time.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Michael Duckett has been myguest.
He leads the Christian ministryat MacArthur Anglican
Indigenous Church and he's beenour guest on the Pastor's Heart
this week.
Of course, it's AboriginalSunday across Australia this
Sunday.
My name's Dominic Steele.
(34:42):
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today we are talkingIndigenous Australians and the
Christian Gospel with MichaelDuckett.
This coming Sunday isAboriginal Sunday, that's the
Sunday before Australia Day, the26th of January.
We're going to talk about that,but especially the progress of
the gospel among the Indigenous.
Well, particularly here inSydney, what are the cultural
(00:31):
changes, cultural issues, whatis the openness to Jesus Christ
among I'll start again, it isthe pastor's heart and Dominic
Steele.
And today we are talkingIndigenous Australians and the
Christian gospel with MichaelDuckett.
This coming Sunday isAboriginal Sunday, that's the
Sunday before Australia Day, the26th of January.
(00:53):
We'll talk about that, butespecially we're talking the
progress of the gospel among theIndigenous in Sydney, but also
across Australia.
What are the cultural issues?
What is the openness to JesusChrist among Indigenous
Australians?
Where are we seeing growth?
What are the roadblocks andopportunities for the growth of
(01:14):
the gospel among the Indigenouscommunities?
How much does it have to dowith the soil and how much does
it have to do with things thatwe can change?
Michael Duckett is our guest.
He leads the AnglicanIndigenous Ministry in the
MacArthur Campbelltown area ofSydney, in the far southwest of
our city.
Michael, thanks for coming inyour pastor's heart.
(01:37):
Let's talk your pastor's heartfirst for Aboriginal Sunday, and
maybe we could start with thestory of one of my heroes, and I
take it one of your heroes,william Cowper.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
William.
Well, my pastor's heart isdriven by the love of God and it
drives me every day.
And my desire is to see all menreconciled to God.
That's my drive, expressedthrough a whole range of areas.
But for those who have gonebefore, like you said, I
(02:20):
recognise that God has beenworking in this country before
colonisation and then throughgreat men and women over
generations and generations, andI bear the fruits of that today
, because I don't.
He wasn't allowed to go inshops, he had a poor treatment,
(02:40):
but he still stood up for thelove of God to share the good
news of Jesus in a hard timewhere he wasn't really valued or
accepted a lot, but he stillloved to bless and serve all
people.
So I'm very challenged by theexample set to love all people,
(03:04):
regardless of their colour,their denomination.
We don't get caught up on that,it's just all people.
You've got a heartbeat.
God has a plan for you and amessage.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Tell me about him, William Cowper.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, he was a man who apparently was a great
preacher.
He was one of the keyinstigators for a lot of
activity of Aboriginal movementsin regards to especially
Christian movements.
He had input into thedevelopment of NAIDOC for our
community.
So God arose a man like Aldo tostand up and to be a voice of
(03:46):
God's love.
We had a time when it wasn'tvery well received in a society,
but our people responded to itand he's been a valued influence
in our Aboriginal environmentever since he's been highly
respected amongst the widerAboriginal community.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, yes, but particularly amongst the
Christian Aboriginal community.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, and sometimes that's forgotten.
What drove him was the love ofGod.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, I sometimes read, and his Christian story is
almost whitewashed out of yes.
That makes me annoyed.
Does it make?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
you annoyed?
Yeah, because they just take onall the other stuff that they
prefer.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And read that back in .
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes, but the gist of his heartbeat was.
The love of God compelled himand he never shied away from
that.
But later accounts willsometimes disregard his
heartbeat and just look at whathe was able to achieve and what
(04:55):
he did, but not about theheartbeat that drove him to do
those things, just take me intothat heart.
Well, I'm always humbled when Ithink of an old uncle who had
limitations where he could gopublicly.
He was restricted.
He couldn't stay in motels,hotels because they wouldn't let
(05:16):
Aboriginal people sleep in suchplaces.
So he was at the gist ofexperiencing racism, segregation
.
That was his life.
Yet God opened doors for him togo over those boundaries and I
can only say it was God who didthat and he had an amazing
(05:38):
influence because God chose thisman to be his vessel, vessel to
walk across lines thatAboriginal people could not walk
past.
That amazes me, that.
God opened those doors so thathe would have an impact not just
in the Aboriginal community,but throughout all communities.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And he was the one who originally got people
thinking about this AboriginesSunday.
I mean it then kind of died offand has been resurrected more
recently.
Yes, now you were telling meit's Aborigines Sunday every
week at your church.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, so it has in the last few years been
reignited and it's great.
You know, it's a practice thatwas encouraged in the church,
wider church, and now it's beingrevitalised, I guess, and
that's good, because all it doesis encourage our nation to
(06:39):
maybe have a bit moreconsideration, a bit more
awareness of the desperate placethat many of our people find
today.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So what would you like me to do at our church and
what would you like to say toour church, for example, on
Aboriginal Sunday?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think I would say you don't have to do anything.
That's my first point, becauseonce you start saying, oh, we
should be doing this and doingthat, then people often react to
that.
But I would say, if God… itstirs your heart to think, you
know what we could recognisethis day in support of ministry
(07:27):
to Indigenous people in thisland, to be educating, to be
part of that journey.
If you're not learning, thenyou won't be aware of anything
about the plight of Aboriginalpeople in this land.
And as God's people, I believewe should be sensitive to all
the needs of all people, youknow.
We have a large number ofimmigrants in this country.
(07:49):
They have a heartbeat.
They still need to be loved andhear the name of Jesus, as do
Indigenous people of this land.
So it's not either or.
I just think, if we get theopportunity to embrace our
support, encourage the ministryof God's word into these
different groups, I think I'mall for it.
And so Aboriginal Sunday for me.
(08:11):
If that stirs people to thinkyou know what, let us spend some
time praying.
It costs them nothing.
Spend some time praying sharinginformation about the situation
of people at this time.
Wow, let's be specificallypraying about these things the
(08:34):
need of ministry amongstAboriginal people throughout
this country ministry here inSydney, one of the largest
populations in Australia.
Country ministry here in Sydney, one of the largest populations
in Australia, so that God mayhear the prayers of his people
and respond accordingly, as hefeels fit.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So what is the state of play of the ministry of Jesus
amongst Indigenous people inSydney at the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Sydney is a melting pot of everybody.
It's such a diverse culturalmelting pot and, as I said,
sydney's got the highestpopulation of Aboriginal people
in this country and from allover Australia, which then can
bring conflicts because it's notnatural to have all tribes of
(09:24):
all people living in the oneplace and squashed together as
the fruits of the Stalingeneration, putting our people
on missions reserves that's notnatural, which can cause a
conflict often because of thedifferent lands, different
tribes, different languages,different protocols.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So here in Sydney we've got such a… so I kind of
float above all… I don't evennotice any of that, but you're
deeply aware of it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh, yes, yes, because we're tribal people and we know
where we come from generallyand our lands, we know our ties
to our land, where we come from,and when you're living on a
different land, it changes thewhole perspective of how you
relate to your neighbour from adifferent land.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So how does it work for you?
Because there's ties to thenorth coast Wollongong and
they're in the southwest.
Do you know?
Yes, yes, how do you fit in, Doyou know?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yes, I fit in with.
I walk with respect on all landI go on.
So my land's up on the northcoast of New South Wales, so I'm
a foreigner here.
It's not my traditional lands.
I have no, if I can say, rights, and rights means obligations
(10:40):
to care for the.
You know traditional ties,traditional responsibilities.
So I walk on this land herewith respect for those who are
custodians of this land.
When I gather with otherAboriginal people I'm always
mindful I'll share where I comefrom, because that's a greeting.
I'm a Dungaree man, that's astandard connection with
(11:03):
somebody else.
So when they tell me theirtribe, then I get a connection
of okay, how do I relate to thisperson according to where they
come from, out of respect.
And then when I get theopportunity to share, I'll share
wholeheartedly what God has puton my heart.
But I always start off withrespect, recognition of the land
(11:25):
.
Sometimes we'll haveacknowledgements of country.
Welcome to countries where thetraditional people say you are
welcome to come onto this land,you are welcome to talk, to
share.
So if I go to different lands Ialways seek permission, you
know, to sort of go into thereto seek permission before I talk
(11:46):
.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Do you send an email or something like?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
that, oh, I ring up whoever's local there or I'll
see them.
It's just out of respect,especially the old people.
I always try to connect withthem as you talk about these
different tribes.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
has the gospel penetrated those different
tribes differently?
Oh yeah, look, definitely youtalk about these different
tribes.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Has the gospel penetrated those different
tribes differently?
Oh yeah, look, definitely,because the core message of
jesus, death and resurrection,it never changes.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
But how it's shared, which I wasn't meaning about how
the presentation of the gospelis.
I'm just really thinking about,like, could you say, among this
tribe we've seen I don't know30% of people become Christian,
whereas among this tribe we'veonly seen like 2% of people come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, I don't think it's ever been sort of
calculated or assessed, becausethe spread of the gospel in our
community is like water itimpacts wherever it goes and
you'll see poolings of it.
but you can't measure it so it'sreally difficult to.
(12:51):
But over time, throughout allof our different communities in
Australia, I've seen the hand ofGod expressed to many
communities and some opened armsto it.
Others were more resistant andthat's why a ministry in
Indigenous circles is achallenge.
(13:13):
But if it's driven by a heartof love, of grace, compassion,
I've always seen that as beingnot always received but always
appreciated.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Because we're spiritual people, we're very
mindful not to disrespect.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So, regardless of denomination, regardless of
religion, our people aregenerally very respectful.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I mean you've just made a generalisation about
spiritual people and I mean youprobably make a generalisation
about white Australia at themoment, it's quite a secular
people.
Yes, what other generalisationscould you make that well, maybe
not being true in everyspecific case about the
Indigenous community ofAustralia.
(14:07):
You know, in terms of openness,closeness to the gospel, in
terms of, yeah, just howIndigenous people think
differently to white Australians.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh yes.
So this is from my perspective.
I know that the large majorityof Indigenous people in this
land.
They will always share whateverthey have.
Generally, it's just you turnup in different communities.
What they have, they willopenly share.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
A more communal mindset.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, what's yours is mine.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And that's a traditional mindset of caring
for your neighbour, showingrespect and also never having
more than you need.
So when you're hunting andyou're getting a few kangaroos,
you make sure you only getenough to feed who's there.
That's a mindset of the oldpeople, but it still continues
(15:03):
that you know you can havenothing and I know many
Aboriginal people give whatlittle they have to somebody
else.
If they've got their last $20in their pocket, many of them
will just say you need it morethan me.
Take it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Now, if you were coaching me on how to have a
gospel conversation with just anIndigenous guy that I meet down
the street, how would youencourage me to think
differently about that gospelconversation to if I was talking
to a white fella?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
The key to communication for Indigenous
people is it's relationship.
It's relational driven, it'snot information driven.
Now, that's the key differenceI think Too often I'll see in
the Western world they're sodriven by download about Jesus
(16:03):
and I'm not sure for my people.
They want to know about therelationship they can have with
Jesus, not just a download ofinformation so you can tell them
all about the great thingsJesus has done.
And that's great.
But if you're going to talkabout a relationship, my people
want to know well, how doesJesus relate to me?
How does our relationship withJesus change my life?
(16:26):
That's what really matters.
It's not the information ofwhat he has done.
It's what he will do in yourlife.
How does he want to relate toyou today?
He wants to bring hope andpeace to your life.
He wants to bring salvationinto your life not a theological
explanation of.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
How did it work for you?
Because, I mean, you grew upnot Christian and then there was
a pivotal moment when you heardabout Jesus being spat on that
made a big difference for you, Ithink, for me.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I didn't have much knowledge about God.
I went to a youth group, aBaptist one, and I seen a fellow
who ran it strange fellow, buthe always turned up every Friday
faithfully.
And I saw a man.
He loved us, even though wedidn't show much respect to him
(17:25):
or any, actually very littlerespect.
We stole his car.
It wasn't very good for him,but he kept coming back and I
didn't understand that.
And then when I heard thepreaching from a preacher, he
was pretty boring but God speaksthrough his word definitely.
(17:46):
I heard God speak to me aboutthe sacrifice of his son, who
was beaten beyond any man.
He was marred beyond any manand God opened my eyes to the
reality of what God had done forme.
And when his son was spat uponand I was being spat upon, I
thought, wow, that does not makesense, the son of God, who was
(18:10):
part of creation and createdheavens and earth, will be
humiliated for me.
And from that point on I said ifhe can be spat upon for me,
I'll serve him the rest of mylife.
And I haven't turned back sincebecause I had an encounter with
a living God who revealed to mehis love, and I've never turned
(18:33):
back and what was right was arelationship, he said.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I love you so much, I want you to come in a
relationship with me and that'swhat I seek to share with all
people that God's love wasn'tjust a word.
It was an action through hisson and that he wants all men to
come unto him so that they canwalk with him, they can have a
relationship with him.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And that's what really matters for a lot of my
people that God isn't just awhite man's God, it's actually
the God of all people.
He says I love you so much, Idemonstrate it through my son so
that you may be brought backinto relationship through the
love, the forgiveness of oursins through Christ.
(19:19):
I and the Christ.
It's sort of simple, but whatit drives is driven by a heart
of love and that's whatresonates with all people groups
throughout the world.
You come with a heartbeat thatsays I just come to share the
love of God.
People see that and they willhear that before they hear your
(19:39):
words, because they'll sensethat you have a love.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Now we've got four or five intentionally Indigenous
congregations in Sydney, solet's just go through them and
talk about what's going on atthose different churches.
So let's start with your one atMacArthur.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So we've been going on.
Now I don't know it's my 17thyear.
It's been going on for over 20years now, over in Campbelltown.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I'm 22 and you're 17.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, so on paper you think oh it hasn't grown a lot.
It has grown, but notgangbusters.
The growth has been in thehearts and the lives of people.
That's where I see the growth,when a family's impacted and
(20:34):
then you'll see their kids ortheir grandkids come along.
That's what I see as impact.
That's what I see as growth,not numeric growth.
It's just oh, you've been goingfor 20 years and you've
probably grown a smidgen, youknow, like on paper.
Yet I've seen the lives ofpeople, a massive growth when
(20:55):
they turn their lives over toJesus and live for him.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Now for me, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And that's what a success for a minister seeing
people grow Just aggression.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
We'll come back to the other churches in a moment,
but 17 years you'd been there.
What was your journey, fromthat moment of hearing the
sermon where Jesus was spat onto beginning in Christian
ministry?
How did you see?
Ah, what were you doing beforeChristian ministry?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Because you were 18, 20, something like that.
Yes, I was nearly finished myapprenticeship as a baller maker
, so I'm a tradie boy.
My father raised me that way.
You always get a trade sonbefore you.
So I was a baller makerprobably third year.
A little touch of my life.
And the day I finished myapprenticeship I went off to
(21:44):
Bible college.
Wow, the day I finished it Iachieved my trade.
And I said to my apprenticeshipI went off to Bible college.
Wow, the day I finished it Iachieved my trade.
And I said to my dad I'm goingoff to study the Bible.
He thought I was cracked.
He goes what's wrong with you?
I said, no, well, god's gotthis plan for me, dad and I'm
going to go.
So I signed up and wentstraight into Bible college,
straight away at Bimberdine, atCootamundra Aboriginal college.
And that Bimberdeen, atCootamundra Aboriginal College.
(22:09):
And that's when I started myministry training to learn about
the Bible, because I didn'tknow much about the Bible.
So I learnt through Sundayschool.
I taught some Sunday school.
Yeah, that was my Bible collegetraining.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
And then full-time ministry after that.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, yep.
So I went to Bimberdeen andthen I went to Emmaus Bible
College I don't know TarleyBible College in Newcastle.
Did three years there becausethat was a non-denominational
college, great church In thebush, so it suited me.
Yep.
And then I went off to EmmausBible College, which was a
Brethren Bible College.
You are eclectic, so I did ayear there and got my degree
(22:45):
with them, I got married, wentto the Kimberleys for a year,
did some parcel work at LaPerouse so I've just had a bit
of a variety and then come backfrom the Kimberleys and then I
spent probably close to 10 yearsin Department of Community
(23:07):
Services working with childrenwho've been through horrific
experiences through care, and soI spent 10 years with them
while still preaching aroundit's hard to get a full-time
ministry for an Aboriginalperson.
There's not much avenues.
And then I started linking upwith the Anglicans and, lo and
(23:34):
behold, I ended up working withthem and signing up in 2008 and
I've been there ever since withthe Sydney Diocese Great.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Now we've gone.
Macarthur, take me over toMount Druitt.
What's going on there?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Mount Druitt.
Rick Manton has been there for25 years, which is a it deserves
a medal.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yep, because I mean well, mount Druitt would have
changed a lot, but that was ahard area of Sydney 25 years ago
.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So that was the largest population of Sydney for
many, many years.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
For Indigenous people .
Yeah yeah, it was also one ofthe lowest socioeconomic areas
in Sydney.
It's a hard gig.
Yeah yeah, it's also one of thelowest socioeconomic areas in
Sydney.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's a hard gig yeah.
And he's been there 25 years.
So it takes me out after RickManton and his family, because
ministry is a family ministryand he's been through drought,
storm.
He's been through that much outthere but he's still there.
And he's known by the community,they know where to go when they
need help.
And he's known by the community, they know where to go when
(24:29):
they need help.
And again, if you look on paperand you go, wow, the church is
like this up and down and that'sthe life of a lot of our
community.
Sometimes there's a good season, then there's a drought, but
the key is that you have thechurch there as a staple point
in that church, into thecommunity, because when there's
death, crisis, suicide,brokenness, homelessness, no
(24:55):
food, they'll always turn up atour churches.
They'll know that they'll dowhatever they can.
If it means going in your owncupboard to get food for family
just to get through the night,they know that they can.
If it means going in your owncupboard to get food for family
just to get through the night.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
They know that they can access that.
Is it the case?
I mean, you just said a momentago that Mount Druitt had high
Indigenous population.
Where are the other highIndigenous populations in Sydney
?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh yes, traditionally it's been Mount Druitt,
followed by the MacArthur innumbers, and then in the city
it's growing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, like in the city Just around us here.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Now Redfern's the hotspot for this nation
traditionally.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, because everything started in Redfern in
a lot of ways.
So Redfern's a central,integral part of the Aboriginal
people in Sydney, let alone.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Australia.
Well, let's go over to Redfernand there's the Living Water
Church there.
Yes, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So Living Water has been going for jeez.
I was there when I firststarted just to support them and
they're doing a great ministry.
They're having a generalministry with a specific focus
on trying to reach Aboriginalpeople and they do a good job.
I applaud them.
(26:21):
But I do know that when itcomes to Indigenous ministry.
But I do know that when itcomes to Indigenous ministry, to
get the best rooting andgrounding in community generally
, it's best driven by Indigenouspeople because they have the
ability to engage with the rootsof the community, where when
(26:44):
you have a mainstream approach,it never gets to the roots of
the community where, when youhave a mainstream approach, it
never gets to the rootsgenerally.
It's just an experience I'veseen.
I've seen many churches try toreach Indigenous people.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Well, it would actually be true with any
particular homogenous group thatif I want to reach an Asian
person, it's going to be easierif I'm Asian, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's a simple principle, but we try to support
the church as best as we canfrom our community perspective
personally, because we want tosee all churches prosper, yeah,
and all people groups, andthey're having a good crack at
trying to reach out to ourcommunity and I respect that and
(27:29):
I'll support it the best.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I can.
Then what's going on down atNowra?
So Nowra's been going on nowfor so is that we've got
MacArthur, mount, druitt,redfern, and is Nowra the fourth
population spot, or is theremany others in between?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
No, we've got Ray Minicon at Glebe and he's been
ministering in the city now forover 20 years.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
There's probably I don't know eight or ten people
involved in that.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, so he's been there.
So the thing I'm proud of isthat when our men step up to
serve the Lord, they're seriousabout it.
So Rick Mann's been 25 years.
Uncle Ray Minicon's been over20 years in the city.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's a hard gig, yeah , and he's still doing it and
we're going to need a newgeneration to come through.
That's the challenge, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
So these men are amazing, men and women, because
remember that they're onlystrong because they're families
yeah, their wives.
That's the key.
So women are always valued inour community because they're
often the strongest ones in manyof our communities.
Our women are amazing and ourmen who serve the Lord are
stronger because they're wives.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They are.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, Brendan Garlis down there.
He's been there for two yearsnow.
He was there two yearspreviously, nine years ago,
doing his MTS.
So he's been there four yearsnow in theory, two years before
and two years now, Young man,he's been doing training at the
well, so he has been involved inrevitalising it, which is again
(29:08):
challenging.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
How does ministry strategy to an Indigenous people
group?
What does it look like and howis it different to what I might
be doing in a more generalistministry?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Well, my view and.
It's all preaching Christ, yes,yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
But what do you actually do?
That's different and how do youthink about it?
That's different.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, I think the key difference is often, let me say
, mainstream churches areprogram driven and they have the
ability to run their program.
They have the people to helpassist in those programs and
they invite community to them.
You know, or they'll have aprogram out where, in Aboriginal
ministries, we're people driven, so we're responding to the
(29:56):
needs of our community andbringing God into that need and
when there's a crisis we'reright there with them, bringing
God into right where people arehurting.
So we're not driven by programs.
If you ask me, do I have a12-month plan?
I don't, and I see fellas whohave five year plans.
I'm just wow, that's amazing.
(30:17):
My plan is just to be walkingwith my people so I'm aware of
what's happening in ourcommunity so that I can respond
with the message of God rightthere where it's needed.
So a bulk of my ministry isactually out in the community
and most of the people in ourchurches is very similar.
(30:39):
We're out there because ourcommunity is so broken and
fragile.
So we have to be there,bringing the hands of God to
where the need is to love, tohave an impact, and then there
might be a little tiny movementof people into the church, but
(31:01):
often it's actually our churchministries in the community.
So if I'm out there with thedrunks in the park, I bring
church to them.
I don't say I come to my church, I come to our church and we
bring the message of God wherethey're at, where they feel
comfortable, because oftenpeople won't go to church.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I've just got two reflections, I mean, on the one
hand, I mean I would hope thatthe program I'm trying to set up
is to enable me to do morepeople ministry, yes, yes, but
there's also I mean there's asize issue that when you're
(31:41):
smaller you can do it in a moread hoc way, but as you get
bigger you've got to get moreorganised.
Yes, but there's also just thefinancial issue.
You know that in the end we'vegot to work to get our churches
to be financially independentyou know, and how do we do it?
(32:02):
I mean, the church, where it's15 or 20, it's got to take money
from outside.
You know, correct?
Yeah, but there's a fragilitythat you're talking about that
necessitates that at the moment.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
The fragility of the people, yeah, but there's a
fragility that you're talkingabout that necessitates that at
the moment.
The fragility of the people.
Yes, and you're exactly right.
When we have a people groupthat's the most discarded group
in this country and decimated bypolicies passed of children
land, everything's been removedand so there's going to need to
be more TLC and therefore,everything's been removed, and
(32:32):
so there's going to need to bemore TLC and therefore it's
going to be more labourintensive.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So the biggest key for our ministry is having a
relationship with our community,which is costly.
Yeah, there's time coststhere's heart costs and when it
comes to financial, we just golive day in, day out, as our
community does, trying to bringGod into a space where they're
(33:05):
so disenfranchised a lot of ourcommunity where they can find
the riches of God.
But you can't buy that.
That's a free gift from Godthrough grace, and that's what
changes lives.
And the biggest key for anAboriginal ministry is having a
relationship, knowing the nameof their dog, knowing the names
of their kids and theirgrandkids.
So when we get invested in ourcommunity, we get to know the
(33:30):
generations of their families.
We get to know theirgrandparents, their tribal lines
, so we just don't know theiraddress.
We know them, we know theirfamilies, we know their
grandkids and when I go down thestreet I can tell the song
lines of all the differentfamilies I run into.
That means I'm invested intotheir song lines and I want to
(33:51):
bring God into their, not justtraditional songlines that have
led them to where they are, towhere they are now, so God
becomes a part of their futuresongline.
So it's hard work, it's apersonal investment, but it's
driven by relationship.
If I can't have a relationshipwith somebody, why would I share
(34:12):
the love of God to them and themessage of Jesus if I don't
actually know them?
Otherwise you give them a flyerand say good luck.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
We are out of time.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Michael Duckett has been myguest.
He leads the Christian ministryat MacArthur Anglican
Indigenous Church and he's beenour guest on the Pastor's Heart
this week.
Of course, it's AboriginalSunday across Australia this
Sunday.
My name's Dominic Steele.
(34:42):
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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