July 7, 2025 • 35 mins
We’re digging into the Bible’s teaching on sex and gender—inside and outside the Garden of Eden - relating to transgender.
We’re asking foundational questions: Was humanity created androgynous? Does Genesis allow for more than two sexes? Is sexual difference a core part of the imago Dei? What does it mean that the man and woman were naked and felt no shame?
Dr Rob Smith lectures at Sydney Missionary and Bible College and serves with Living Faith, a pastoral ministry of the Sydney Anglican Church caring for those navigating same-sex attraction or gender incongruence.
Rob is the author of a new book The Body God Gives.
Rob also spoke to us in February 2025 about the historic and cultural issues relating to the transgender, under the heading 'The Sexed body is the Gendered Self'.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
knowledge, nakedness and shame.
We are talking sex and genderin and out of the garden.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
Rob smith is with us.
Does genesis 1 teach thathumanity was initially
androgynous?
Does genesis 1 allow foradditional sexes?
What is the connection betweenknowledge, nakedness and shame,
(00:28):
and what does this connectionreveal about the significance of
human sexuality?
And what do the Bible'scommands reveal about human
constitution?
It is a Bible study today.
On the pastor's heart.
Rob Smith, doctrine Lecturer atSydney Missionary and Bible
College, is with us.
Rob also serves on the PastoralMinistry of Living Faith, the
(00:49):
Pastoral Ministry of the SydneyAnglican Church, caring for
those who are experiencingsame-sex attraction or gender
incongruence.
Rob was here a few months agotalking to us about his new book
, the Body God Gives, and I madethe observation then, when we
interviewed Rob, that a sermonseries on early Genesis would be
(01:11):
marked by whether or not thatseries had been preached before
or after the release of Rob'sbook, such is the super helpful
nature of the work that he'sdone in his well.
It's a biblical response totransgender theory.
Last time we focused on thehistoric and cultural issues,
the diverse theories surroundingsex and gender, distinguishing
(01:33):
between well, non-trans, softtrans, hard trans and various
queer perspectives.
Today we're looking at theBible, but first, rob Smith,
these issues of transgender.
They're not just academic?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Absolutely not.
We're talking about a responseto transgender theory, but of
course, that theory impacts reallives, and there are people who
are wrestling personally withnot only experiences, but then
how these ideas either inform ormaybe misinform those
experiences.
And so, yes, we can't separateideas from people.
(02:09):
As we've always known, ideashave consequences, they have
legs, as it were, and so we'vegot to see what difference they
make to the lives of people.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
And so, yes, this is a response to transgender theory
, but behind the theory ispeople, often people in pain now
, when I was looking at thisbook a few months ago with you,
we were looking at the uh, thevarious uh transgender theories
and you interacting with them.
But the back part, in fact themain substance of the book, is
looking at the scriptures and,um, I want to go there and start
(02:43):
off in creation and start offon page one and chapter one of
Genesis and really we'll put itup on the screen.
But Genesis 1, 27, and Godcreated man in his own image.
He created him in the image ofGod.
He created them, male andfemale, and this has become an
extraordinary battleground verse, well, not just in the wider
(03:06):
theological community, but inthe transgender debate.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yes, there are certainly people who take a very
different read of that verse towhat most of us would assume it
means.
Now, I do think it's a fairlystraightforward verse but, as
you raised at the very beginning, there are some who've argued
that we were initially madeandrogynous.
So they read the second line ofthat verse there as referring
(03:31):
to some initial sort ofandrogynous humanity.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So God created man in his own image.
He created him in the image ofGod.
They're running with the viewthat we're talking androgynous
up to that point in the verseyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And then there's a subsequent, as it were,
splitting of this humanity intomale and female.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So, if you like, god's perfect creation was
androgynous.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
And then Well, yeah, certainly it takes someone like
Gregory of Nyssa.
He sees the, as it were, thesort of descent into male and
female as an anticipation of thefall.
Wow so that we effectively fallinto sex Now.
You and I always thought wefell into sin, not into sex and
that's of course right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But yes, gregory of Nyssa had a strange view.
Sex is part of God's goodcreation.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It is part of the good creation.
It's not an anticipation of thefall, but anyway.
Gregory of Nyssa is a greatchurch father in many ways, but
has some weird ideas.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I just thought he was a good guy.
You're saying no, it's been.
I mean, he's a good guy in manyareas.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, absolutely, but in some areas particularly
unhelpful.
Yeah, and I think he's veryconfused on this point.
And not only did he argue forinitial androgyny, but also
ultimate androgyny in theresurrection.
Now, neither of those things Ithink we'll see are true.
But no Genesis 127, you do havein Chapter 2, of course, the
(04:51):
woman coming from the man, andso there is a sequence in
Chapter 2.
But I don't know.
We're meant to read that backinto Chapter 1, given that
Chapter 1 comes before Chapter 2, funnily enough.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But what we're being told here is really just all of
a piece.
So what's your argument toreply to someone like Gregory of
Nicaea?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, well, again, I think this has a form of a
particular Hebrew poetic form.
So God is making humanity Adamis the word there in his image,
and Adam is singular becauseit's a collective term for
humanity.
And Adam is singular becauseit's a collective term for
humanity, and so that he madehim in his image.
(05:28):
The second line there and thenmade them, that is, individuals,
male and female, is not tellingus that we were somehow
initially non-sexual, pre-sexual, asexual and then became sexual
.
It's just simply saying thatcollective humanity is made in
(05:49):
God's image and it comes inthese two sex forms, male and
female.
Now, how male and female comeinto being, we learn in Genesis
2.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, let's go there in terms of the constitution of
humanity and the making of man,and then I think you say the
building of woman.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, well, it's a different Hebrew word there and
it's quite a significant one,because it's a word that's used
often in the building of sacredarchitecture and so on.
So it highlights this.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So why are women built and men made?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, you could argue it's just a sort of stylistic
difference.
But certainly Adam as he is,the man, is made from the adamar
, from the ground.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And what's the male word and what's the female word
there?
Is there any significance there?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You mean ish and ishah those words yeah.
Well, yes, distinguishing terms,obviously, and so one of the
things we learn as you putGenesis 1 and 2 together is that
the man of Genesis 2 is themale of Genesis 1.
The woman of Genesis 2 is thefemale of Genesis 1.
And indeed it's Jesus who putsthose verses together, as I know
(07:00):
you've pointed out, in Matthew19.
He does a mash-up, as it were,of Genesis 1.27 and Genesis 2.24
.
And so that itself tells usstraight away that sex and
gender go together, and reallythat sex, as it were, is the
foundation of gender, thatwhether you're male and whether
you're female is what determineswhether you're a man or a woman
, and so all of that's verysignificant.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And it's axiomatic.
You can't have.
Yeah, it has to be.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, well, exactly, I mean, we distinguish these
terms today sex and gender.
The Bible really knows nodistinction of that kind.
If you're a male, you're a man,you grow to be a man.
If you're a female, you grow tobe a woman.
There's no thought orpossibility in sort of biblical
anthropology of somebody, awoman, being born in a man's
(07:46):
body or a man being born in awoman's body.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's just an unthinkable thought, so popular
culture wants us to say, andcertainly trans theory wants us
to say, sex and gender aretotally separate.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
But you are saying that the Bible is saying that
only the male can be a man andonly the man can be a father, a
brother, a nephew, an uncle,husband, yep, husband, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, that shouldn't really be in dispute and
certainly biblically it's not,and historically it hasn't been,
but until very recently, withthese theories queer theory,
trans theory that's where theseideas have been thrown into the
mix to say, well, can you be aman and yet have a female body?
And the Bible's answer is no.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
The body God gives to use the title of my book, which
wasn't my thought, by the way,it was the publisher's idea.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It's a great thought.
Yeah, because it… I mean, it'sreally….
You spend three years workingout all the detail and then
somebody comes and says here'sthe caption.
Well, that's what marketing.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
people are for right.
But yeah, because it answersthe question.
The question is how do I knowif God made me a man or a woman?
And the answer is the body.
The body God gave me, the bodyGod gave.
That's what signals the reality, it's what determines.
I say in the book that sexdetermines gender, in that if
you're male, then everythingfollows from that.
(09:12):
And sex also reveals gender, inthat if I want to understand
well, what am I, then my sexwill tell me the answer.
Now I interrupted.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
We were on building and making.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yes, well, again, we have an interesting, well two
episodes there in Genesis 2.
So the man's body is formedfirst, formed of the dust of the
ground, and so, interestingly,he is a man just by virtue of
the body God makes, even beforehe comes to life, because it's
the second stage in Genesis 2where the breath of life enters
(09:48):
him and he becomes a livingbeing.
Now he's unique in that sensebecause all the rest of us who
follow Eve and Eve, just we,come into being, you know, body
and breath all together.
But he gets the body first.
But just knowing that he's aman by virtue of the body God
gives him tells you that thereis no, you know, thought of
(10:12):
somehow then a different sexedsoul entering that body.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
That's not even the picture, because some queer
theory does say that, doesn't it?
It says you can have a body anda soul that are out of
alignment.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, yes, perhaps some forms of trans theory might
be saying that sort of thing,or at, or saying something akin
to that.
So you know, man in a woman'sbody, that whole idea is really,
as many secular thinkers havepointed out.
It's very theological at thatpoint.
But it's perhaps morephilosophical because, if you're
talking theology, or at leastbiblical theology, body and soul
(10:50):
don't work that way.
It's not like souls are droppedinto bodies and you know, maybe
the angels were having an offday and dropped in um the soul
sexed female into a body sexedmale.
No, no, we are made asintegrated persons.
Uh, psychosomatic beings is thetechnical language.
Uh, psycho sucare for soma, forbody, psychosomatic wholeness
(11:14):
is what characterizes humanity.
Now we see this in the case ofthe woman.
Now she, as you pointed out, isbuilt from part of the side of
the man.
It's not, strictly speaking, arib, I mean, it's bone of his
bone, flesh of his flesh, it'spart of his side that's taken.
(11:35):
But one of the other strangeideas again, it fits in with
this claim of original androgyny, or primordial androgyny as
sometimes it's called is thatsomehow the Adam in Genesis 2
was a male and female being andthen God, as it were, split the
Adam and took the woman part outthat's not the picture and took
the woman part out.
That's not the picture.
The picture is no.
(11:58):
He is man, and part of the sideof the man is taken and then
built into a separate human, butone who is well complementary
in her sex.
Okay, so what he needs is a,the Hebrew there, an ezer
khanegdo, a helper, likeopposite him.
She is like him in humanity,opposite him in her sex, and so
(12:18):
then they can come together, youknow, as husband and wife and
so on.
But anyway, it's a verybeautiful, rich picture.
Now there was one thing wejumped over in Genesis 1,
actually, if you want to go,back to it.
Because you mentioned in yourintro that people have tried to
argue and they do from Genesis 1, that there are potentially
more than two sexes.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not just light, dark, but
kind of dawn and dusk.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So, again, Genesis 2 is clear it's only a man and a
woman.
There's no others there.
But Genesis 1, yes, you havethese night and day, and some
will say, yes, okay, that's fine, but between night and day
we've got dawn and dusk, andyou've got land and sea.
And, yes, in between land andsea we've got swamps and marshes
and amphibians, Amphibians yeah, you've got land animals, sea
(13:04):
creatures, and yet you've gotthese hybrid species that seem
to be able to function in bothenvironments.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So they put there in the argument that it's not
simple binary.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, these so-called binaries may be more complex,
and so maybe that also appliesto male and female, that, yes,
these are two poles at the endof the spectrum, but perhaps in
between there are other sexes.
Okay, you've almost persuadedme.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Pull me back.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and superficially it
sounds like quite a strongargument.
Now, first of all, of course,we're dealing with, again,
unique things in each case, andthe man and the woman, clearly,
or male and female, as it is inGenesis 1.
We're not told if that's thecase there, if there's something
in between, but there'scertainly no indication of that.
(13:51):
It's humanity in God's image,male and female, made he them.
And then, of course, verse 28follows on from verse 27,.
Be fruitful and multiply.
And so it's the male and femalethat, of course, is required
for procreation.
And again, if we just stepaside into the realm of biology
(14:12):
for a moment, we actually knowthere is no third sex,
biologically speaking, there'sno third gamete, there's no
third gonad right, there's nothird type of genitalia, it's
even the amphibians, it's maleand female.
Exactly yes, one scholar haspointed out, amphibians can't
reproduce other than male andfemale, and that's all that's
required, and so it's justsimply not the case that there
(14:36):
are more than two sexes.
And this comes out mostdramatically, I think, in the
flood narrative, right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Because how many?
Oh yes, of course, it's two bytwo.
The.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Hebrew is very clear it's two and two, two and two,
two and two, two and two, maleand female, zachar and Nekevar,
same terms of Genesis 1.
There are no other sexes.
Now, at this point some peoplesay well, hang on.
But what about people who areborn intersexes Sometimes the
term is used or, as I think,perhaps better said, born with a
(15:08):
disorder of sex development,which means they haven't
developed straightforwardly asperhaps a male or female?
There may be some confusion atsome level, perhaps in terms of
genitalia or something and ourheart wants to go out to that
person, absolutely, absolutely.
We're talking about a verysmall percentage of people, you
know, because 99.98% of peopleare born straightforwardly.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That's the percentage 99.98%.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yes, straightforwardly, male and
female.
But again there's a small butsignificant number of people
absolutely, who have these and Ithink we should rightly say
post-fall conditions, becauseall of our bodily disorders and
dysfunctions they're allpost-fall, they're all
consequences of sin and deathcoming into the world.
(15:52):
But there are some people whohave these conditions.
But these conditions don'tcreate a third sex.
They just simply mean that sexfor some people is not
straightforward.
But that itself does not createa third sex.
And you get a wonderfulindication of how the Bible
thinks about this in Matthew 19,the very passage where Jesus
brings Genesis 127 and 224together, because at the
(16:16):
beginning of the chapter, ashe's talking about marriage and
divorce and so on, he says fromthe beginning God made them male
and female, not just in thebeginning, but from the
beginning.
This is God's pattern goingforward.
And yet, come to verse 12 ofthat chapter, he introduces some
, he says, who are eunuchs frombirth.
And now here is one of a numberof rabbinic and Hebrew
(16:38):
categories of someone with anintersex condition.
In this case eunuchs wereregarded as men, but men who are
unable to functionreproductively because of, again
, a disorder of sex development.
If it was from birth, they wereeither their penis had not
developed or their testes notdeveloped, or whatever it was,
(16:59):
they were a eunuch from birth.
But that doesn't disturb thebasic fact that sex remains male
and female binary, that fromthe beginning God made them male
and female.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Let's go to that end of Genesis 2 verse.
This is why a man leaves hisfather and mother bonds with his
wife.
They'll become one flesh.
The man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
I mean, many of us would saythat's one of the most important
verses in the Scriptures forunderstanding marriage.
(17:34):
Certainly verse 24, yes, what'sthe implication for the whole
transgender discussion there?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, well, several.
First of all, as we said before, jesus puts Genesis 1 and 2
together, telling us that males,men, husbands, females, women,
wives.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
A man leaves his father and mother bonds with his
wife.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So there's no disrupting of that, and if there
was, it would kind of dismantlethe whole system a little.
In the Bible's sexual ethics, Imean, you can't even just, for
example, just to step aside fromit, you can't have the
prohibitions against homosexualbehaviour unless there is a
stable sex and gender connection, because otherwise the whole
thing just kind of makes nosense.
(18:19):
So again the Bible is assumingand stating in fact that again
male man, husband, father,female woman wife mother, so
that's all there.
Father, female woman, wife,mother, so that's all there.
And it also tells us that,again, marriage is one of the
primary purposes of us beingmade male and female, and the
(18:40):
context into which children areto be born.
It's not the only purpose ofbeing male and female.
As we see, not everybodymarries, not every married
couple can have children.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So, again, there's more to being male and female
than simply it being aboutmarriage, and only a male can be
a son and only a woman can be adaughter.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That's right.
So, yes, even if you're nevermarried, you're still a woman,
still a daughter, still a sister, still an auntie, Still an
auntie.
Yeah, now, but verse 25.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, I think this issue of naked and no shame.
I mean I was reading throughyour book and I mean I've
thought about those issues andcovering up in Chapter 3 when, I
sinned and that kind of thing.
But you showed me avulnerability that I don't think
(19:31):
I had thought about, or a levelof vulnerability that I don't
think I had thought about, or alevel of vulnerability that I
don't think I had thought aboutbefore.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yes, when I really began digging into 225, I just
thought this is a staggeringpicture.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
New ground Well, it was new ground for me yeah, we
easily just jump over it.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
They were naked and not ashamed.
But when we realise we don'tknow that experience that bodily
shame because we live on theother side of the fall, bodily
shame is just par for the coursewith us.
We instinctively cover up, asthey did.
But 225, no, there's no need tocover up.
(20:11):
They are unashamed, uninhibited, perhaps even you might say
blissfully unaware of theirnaked.
It just doesn't occur to themto be self-conscious.
And so it's just a verybeautiful picture of total
openness, total freedom, zerofear, zero threat.
They're not a danger to eachother, there's no vulnerability.
(20:35):
So it's just such a wonderfulimage, which then is shattered
only a few verses later, inChapter 3, when, after they sin,
they are immediately afraid,firstly of God, and rightly, but
then of each other, and so theystart to hide from each other,
they protect themselves fromeach other.
They actually make loincloths,and so you know again, they're
(20:58):
covering their genitalia.
They're not just, as it were,just putting a coat on, as it
were.
They're actually covering thoseparts of their anatomy that
distinguish them most clearlyfrom one another as male and
female and are now areas ofpotential threat to each other.
So, yeah, it's quite a dramaticshift that is meant to lift us
(21:20):
up and then kind of decimate usor deeply disturb us, as it
should.
So yeah, shame and sexualsensitivity, those things go
together.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So when I want to hide my genitalia, you know
there's something in that thatresonates with the transgender
experience.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, certainly can do, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, we
know from many accounts thatmany people who have sought to
well take on a trans identityhave done so in order to escape
from their given sex, becausethey have been in some way
shamed in that sex most dramaticform of that shaming.
(22:14):
But people can be sexuallyshamed in other ways too and
made fun of and even pick upcultural messages that it's
shameful to be a boy, that it'stoxic to be a male and these
kinds of messages.
So we're all ashamed becausewe're all men and all sinners,
and yet there is a focus ofshame around our genitalia and
(22:36):
that can be very muchexacerbated by them particular
life experiences that somepeople have, and it makes total
sense that some would think theway to solve this problem is to
escape my sex.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okay, we head outside the garden to the Lord Jesus
Christ.
I mean, we've already touchedon Matthew 19.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Is there anywhere else we want to go to in terms
of Christ on this, Well, yes,absolutely, because the only
person, ultimately, who can takeour shame away is him, and I
mean that is the great promiseof the gospel, that all who
confess his name will not be putto shame.
And so he is the antidote toour fallenness and everything
(23:25):
that goes into that fallenness.
Now, again, one of the thingsJesus shows us is that the way
God has made us is good.
It's the way, again, he intendsus to be, and what it means for
us to grow and to flourish andto indeed be sanctified and made
(23:47):
like him is to, as it were, tolead into our creativeness, to
go with the grain of ourcreativeness.
So one of the discoveries I madein the process well,
discovery's a bit too strong,but one of the things that was
highlighted for me is just thegoodness of God's commands,
because all of his commands arereally about teaching us and
(24:08):
showing us how to work with thegrain of our createdness, and so
the commands, in that sense,reveal created order to us.
You know, as fallen sinners, wedon't always know what.
We can't just read off now fromyou know, post-fall creation,
how it's all meant to work.
We need Scripture to guide usas to what is true, what is good
(24:29):
, what is beautiful.
And it does that through thelaws do that, the commands do
that.
So you know, take a commandlike Deuteronomy 22.5, which is
a prohibition againstcross-dressing.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I'll just read it here A woman shall not wear a
man's garment, nor shall a manput on a woman's cloak, for
whoever does these things is anabomination to the Lord, your
God.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a very strong prohibition
with a very strong term at theend, which is again a term used
in particular commands.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Abomination makes you kind of stop in your steps.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, it's saying this is a serious violation of
God's order and intention.
And so why should this be seenso significantly?
Well, it's because there ishere a going against the grain
of one's creativeness.
There is a denial or adisguising or a deceiving of
others as to who and what Godmade us to be, and so the
(25:30):
commands, particularly thewarnings like this one, are
saying no, don't go there.
This is not the way of life.
There's a way that seems rightto a man, but its end is the way
of death.
This is not going to help.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
How does a New Testament.
Christian read that verse inDeuteronomy 22?
.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, we need to, of course, look at the Old
Testament law carefully and seewhat the New Testament is doing
with it.
Christians, historically, haveoften distinguished different
types of commands moral commands, civil commands, ceremonial
commands and certainly there aresome commands in the Old
Testament that no longer applyto us the food laws, the
sacrificial laws and so on.
(26:07):
It doesn't mean we can't learnthings from them.
There's much we should learnfrom them, but we're not meant
to obey them as were to theletter.
But there are other commandsthat are clearly moral, they've
got to do with again createdorder, created good.
This, I believe, is certainlyone of them, and the New
Testament has some parallels tothis, both in its sexual ethics,
but also in a passage ascomplex as it is, like 1
(26:31):
Corinthians 11, where there's aclear concern on the part of the
Apostle Paul that men and womenare recognisable as men and
women when they're praying andprophesying when they're praying
and prophesying when they'regathered together, that we're
not confusing each other, we'renot again denying, disguising,
somehow blurring our sexualdistinctiveness.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Let me boil up the other one that's discussed and
debated in Deuteronomy,deuteronomy 23.1.
Sure, we now come to the secondof the prohibitions.
No one whose testicles arecrushed or whose male organ is
cut off shall enter the assemblyof the Lord.
I mean, again, that's a pretty,I mean testicle crushing, I
(27:18):
mean that's a kind ofconfronting statement yes, but
to be shut out of the temple.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, now again, we need to understand well the Old
Testament world and particularlywell the biblical thought
around.
You know what it means toappear before the Lord.
Now, one of the things that theOld Testament scholars will
tell you and tell me is thatthere is a link in much Old
Testament thought betweenholiness and wholeness, and so
(27:48):
there are certain people whocan't become priests, for
example, because there'ssomething they have a bodily
defect or disfigurement orsomething.
There's something.
They have a bodily defect ordisfigurement or something.
There's something that'sunwhole about them and therefore
they don't qualify to enter theholy place.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Something like the leprosy type thing.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah that kind of thing.
So now that obviously to usmight seem sad and indeed unkind
, but it's sending a messagethat of is a message we all need
to hear, and every Israeliteneeded to hear, which is that
unless we are holy, we can'tcome before a holy God and
(28:26):
expect to stand, and of course,that's why sacrifices were
needed, that's why blood neededto be shed and so on.
But in regard to thisparticular command, the Bible
does something with this as itsstory unfolds, because we get to
this wonderful promise inIsaiah 56 that God is going to,
as it were, reverse thisdirective and is going to
(28:50):
include the faithful, thebelieving eunuch, among his
people and give them aninheritance better than sons and
daughters says the text.
And well then, of course thatfollows into the New Testament
when we see the fulfilment of itin the conversion of the
Ethiopian eunuch Acts, chapter 8.
(29:10):
Acts, chapter 8.
Okay so, yeah, no-transcript.
Acts, chapter 8.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Okay, so yeah, let's just dig into that because
that's exciting.
I mean, when I read theEthiopian eunuch passage I'm
just thinking oh wow, a non-Jew,yes, but there's something
really exciting about thecrushed testicle person being
welcomed into the presence of.
I mean.
(29:33):
So this is one where the NewTestament has overturned the Old
Testament.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
right, yes, well, it certainly is saying that this,
no longer this restriction ofDeuteronomy 22.1, now no longer
23.1.
23.1, sorry, 23.1, no longerapplies in the new covenant.
That well, not only haveGentiles been welcomed in, which
is part of the Isaiah prophecy,but even eunuchs are welcomed
(30:00):
in.
And so you know, god is dealingwith something even deeper here
, because he's again cleansinghearts and opening hearts.
And so when the eunuch says toPhilip you know, is there
anything to prevent me frombeing baptised?
I'm sure he had in his mind,his….
Speaker 1 (30:17):
He's not just thinking I'm not a Jew, he's
thinking I've got crushedtesticles.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, and Philip says nothing whatsoever.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Here's the Lord Leaping and jumping and praising
God.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So that's wonderful.
So I've spent time in the bookon this passage because, unlike
Deuteronomy 22.5, I think,Deuteronomy 23.1 takes a
different path and it's verygood news, therefore, for the
person who and I know manypeople who have taken this path
themselves, who have hadsurgeries in the hope that this
(30:52):
will bring relief to theirgender confusion, their gender
dysphoria, have had parts oftheir bodies removed that can
never be put back to know thatthat is not a problem to God,
and they're reading Acts 8 withthat joy that you've just
described.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Isn't that exciting?
Yeah, so they can have a nameand an inheritance.
Better than sons and daughters,they are fully welcomed.
They're not second class.
Their bodily condition makes nodifference to their status in
the kingdom.
And now, of course, ahead ofthem is resurrection.
But even now there's just noproblem knowing the Lord,
(31:36):
serving the Lord and being partof his people.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Hallelujah, we're almost out of time, but trans
and the resurrection.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the resurrection of thebody is what we're talking about
, and it's not just aresurrection of persons or souls
or something.
No, resurrection is a bodilyidea, and I think it's very
clear in Scripture that we aregoing to be raised in these
self-same bodies, not givendifferent bodies, but at the
(32:04):
same time these bodies will betransformed and made perfect,
made indeed immortal,imperishable, glorious beyond
our imaginings.
And so, yeah, the idea thatsomehow we'll be raised asexual
or raised all male, as some havepondered, no, we will be raised
(32:24):
as us, just like Jesus wasraised as Jesus.
He is still the man, christJesus.
He is, as one writer says, andwill always be, a circumcised
Jewish male, because that is thebody that lived, that is the
body that died, that is the bodythat was raised, that is the
body that ascended, that is thebody that will come again, of
the Lord Jesus.
And likewise, with us.
(32:45):
And again, for those who haveperhaps wrestled with their sex
and have had struggles acceptingthat sex, some may find this
confusing Do I really want aresurrection of this body?
Well, again, it won't be thisbody in the sense that it won't
(33:05):
have any of the problems of thisbody, but it will be this body,
in that it will be a perfected,transformed, glorified version,
and all that troubles you aboutyour body now will not trouble
you then.
There will be no dysphoria, nodisappointment only happiness.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Dr Rob Smith has been my guest.
He's Doctrine Lecturer atSydney Missionary and Bible
College.
The author of this book, theBody God Gives A Biblical
Response to Transgender Theory.
You could obviously go buy thatbook, but we spoke to Rob a
couple of months ago under theheading of the Body God Gives,
(33:47):
back in February on the Pastor'sHeart.
You could go and find that myname's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
knowledge, nakedness and shame.
We are talking sex and genderin and out of the garden.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's dominic steel.
Rob smith is with us.
Does genesis 1 teach thathumanity was initially
androgynous?
Does genesis 1 allow foradditional sexes?
What is the connection betweenknowledge, nakedness and shame,
(00:28):
and what does this connectionreveal about the significance of
human sexuality?
And what do the Bible'scommands reveal about human
constitution?
It is a Bible study today.
On the pastor's heart.
Rob Smith, doctrine Lecturer atSydney Missionary and Bible
College, is with us.
Rob also serves on the PastoralMinistry of Living Faith, the
(00:49):
Pastoral Ministry of the SydneyAnglican Church, caring for
those who are experiencingsame-sex attraction or gender
incongruence.
Rob was here a few months agotalking to us about his new book
, the Body God Gives, and I madethe observation then, when we
interviewed Rob, that a sermonseries on early Genesis would be
(01:11):
marked by whether or not thatseries had been preached before
or after the release of Rob'sbook, such is the super helpful
nature of the work that he'sdone in his well.
It's a biblical response totransgender theory.
Last time we focused on thehistoric and cultural issues,
the diverse theories surroundingsex and gender, distinguishing
(01:33):
between well, non-trans, softtrans, hard trans and various
queer perspectives.
Today we're looking at theBible, but first, rob Smith,
these issues of transgender.
They're not just academic?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Absolutely not.
We're talking about a responseto transgender theory, but of
course, that theory impacts reallives, and there are people who
are wrestling personally withnot only experiences, but then
how these ideas either inform ormaybe misinform those
experiences.
And so, yes, we can't separateideas from people.
(02:09):
As we've always known, ideashave consequences, they have
legs, as it were, and so we'vegot to see what difference they
make to the lives of people.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
And so, yes, this is a response to transgender theory
, but behind the theory ispeople, often people in pain now
, when I was looking at thisbook a few months ago with you,
we were looking at the uh, thevarious uh transgender theories
and you interacting with them.
But the back part, in fact themain substance of the book, is
looking at the scriptures and,um, I want to go there and start
(02:43):
off in creation and start offon page one and chapter one of
Genesis and really we'll put itup on the screen.
But Genesis 1, 27, and Godcreated man in his own image.
He created him in the image ofGod.
He created them, male andfemale, and this has become an
extraordinary battleground verse, well, not just in the wider
(03:06):
theological community, but inthe transgender debate.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yes, there are certainly people who take a very
different read of that verse towhat most of us would assume it
means.
Now, I do think it's a fairlystraightforward verse but, as
you raised at the very beginning, there are some who've argued
that we were initially madeandrogynous.
So they read the second line ofthat verse there as referring
(03:31):
to some initial sort ofandrogynous humanity.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So God created man in his own image.
He created him in the image ofGod.
They're running with the viewthat we're talking androgynous
up to that point in the verseyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And then there's a subsequent, as it were,
splitting of this humanity intomale and female.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So, if you like, god's perfect creation was
androgynous.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
And then Well, yeah, certainly it takes someone like
Gregory of Nyssa.
He sees the, as it were, thesort of descent into male and
female as an anticipation of thefall.
Wow so that we effectively fallinto sex Now.
You and I always thought wefell into sin, not into sex and
that's of course right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But yes, gregory of Nyssa had a strange view.
Sex is part of God's goodcreation.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It is part of the good creation.
It's not an anticipation of thefall, but anyway.
Gregory of Nyssa is a greatchurch father in many ways, but
has some weird ideas.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I just thought he was a good guy.
You're saying no, it's been.
I mean, he's a good guy in manyareas.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, absolutely, but in some areas particularly
unhelpful.
Yeah, and I think he's veryconfused on this point.
And not only did he argue forinitial androgyny, but also
ultimate androgyny in theresurrection.
Now, neither of those things Ithink we'll see are true.
But no Genesis 127, you do havein Chapter 2, of course, the
(04:51):
woman coming from the man, andso there is a sequence in
Chapter 2.
But I don't know.
We're meant to read that backinto Chapter 1, given that
Chapter 1 comes before Chapter 2, funnily enough.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But what we're being told here is really just all of
a piece.
So what's your argument toreply to someone like Gregory of
Nicaea?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, well, again, I think this has a form of a
particular Hebrew poetic form.
So God is making humanity Adamis the word there in his image,
and Adam is singular becauseit's a collective term for
humanity.
And Adam is singular becauseit's a collective term for
humanity, and so that he madehim in his image.
(05:28):
The second line there and thenmade them, that is, individuals,
male and female, is not tellingus that we were somehow
initially non-sexual, pre-sexual, asexual and then became sexual
.
It's just simply saying thatcollective humanity is made in
(05:49):
God's image and it comes inthese two sex forms, male and
female.
Now, how male and female comeinto being, we learn in Genesis
2.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, let's go there in terms of the constitution of
humanity and the making of man,and then I think you say the
building of woman.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, well, it's a different Hebrew word there and
it's quite a significant one,because it's a word that's used
often in the building of sacredarchitecture and so on.
So it highlights this.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So why are women built and men made?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, you could argue it's just a sort of stylistic
difference.
But certainly Adam as he is,the man, is made from the adamar
, from the ground.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And what's the male word and what's the female word
there?
Is there any significance there?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You mean ish and ishah those words yeah.
Well, yes, distinguishing terms,obviously, and so one of the
things we learn as you putGenesis 1 and 2 together is that
the man of Genesis 2 is themale of Genesis 1.
The woman of Genesis 2 is thefemale of Genesis 1.
And indeed it's Jesus who putsthose verses together, as I know
(07:00):
you've pointed out, in Matthew19.
He does a mash-up, as it were,of Genesis 1.27 and Genesis 2.24
.
And so that itself tells usstraight away that sex and
gender go together, and reallythat sex, as it were, is the
foundation of gender, thatwhether you're male and whether
you're female is what determineswhether you're a man or a woman
, and so all of that's verysignificant.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And it's axiomatic.
You can't have.
Yeah, it has to be.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, well, exactly, I mean, we distinguish these
terms today sex and gender.
The Bible really knows nodistinction of that kind.
If you're a male, you're a man,you grow to be a man.
If you're a female, you grow tobe a woman.
There's no thought orpossibility in sort of biblical
anthropology of somebody, awoman, being born in a man's
(07:46):
body or a man being born in awoman's body.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's just an unthinkable thought, so popular
culture wants us to say, andcertainly trans theory wants us
to say, sex and gender aretotally separate.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
But you are saying that the Bible is saying that
only the male can be a man andonly the man can be a father, a
brother, a nephew, an uncle,husband, yep, husband, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, that shouldn't really be in dispute and
certainly biblically it's not,and historically it hasn't been,
but until very recently, withthese theories queer theory,
trans theory that's where theseideas have been thrown into the
mix to say, well, can you be aman and yet have a female body?
And the Bible's answer is no.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
No.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
The body God gives to use the title of my book, which
wasn't my thought, by the way,it was the publisher's idea.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It's a great thought.
Yeah, because it… I mean, it'sreally….
You spend three years workingout all the detail and then
somebody comes and says here'sthe caption.
Well, that's what marketing.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
people are for right.
But yeah, because it answersthe question.
The question is how do I knowif God made me a man or a woman?
And the answer is the body.
The body God gave me, the bodyGod gave.
That's what signals the reality, it's what determines.
I say in the book that sexdetermines gender, in that if
you're male, then everythingfollows from that.
(09:12):
And sex also reveals gender, inthat if I want to understand
well, what am I, then my sexwill tell me the answer.
Now I interrupted.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
We were on building and making.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yes, well, again, we have an interesting, well two
episodes there in Genesis 2.
So the man's body is formedfirst, formed of the dust of the
ground, and so, interestingly,he is a man just by virtue of
the body God makes, even beforehe comes to life, because it's
the second stage in Genesis 2where the breath of life enters
(09:48):
him and he becomes a livingbeing.
Now he's unique in that sensebecause all the rest of us who
follow Eve and Eve, just we,come into being, you know, body
and breath all together.
But he gets the body first.
But just knowing that he's aman by virtue of the body God
gives him tells you that thereis no, you know, thought of
(10:12):
somehow then a different sexedsoul entering that body.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
That's not even the picture, because some queer
theory does say that, doesn't it?
It says you can have a body anda soul that are out of
alignment.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, yes, perhaps some forms of trans theory might
be saying that sort of thing,or at, or saying something akin
to that.
So you know, man in a woman'sbody, that whole idea is really,
as many secular thinkers havepointed out.
It's very theological at thatpoint.
But it's perhaps morephilosophical because, if you're
talking theology, or at leastbiblical theology, body and soul
(10:50):
don't work that way.
It's not like souls are droppedinto bodies and you know, maybe
the angels were having an offday and dropped in um the soul
sexed female into a body sexedmale.
No, no, we are made asintegrated persons.
Uh, psychosomatic beings is thetechnical language.
Uh, psycho sucare for soma, forbody, psychosomatic wholeness
(11:14):
is what characterizes humanity.
Now we see this in the case ofthe woman.
Now she, as you pointed out, isbuilt from part of the side of
the man.
It's not, strictly speaking, arib, I mean, it's bone of his
bone, flesh of his flesh, it'spart of his side that's taken.
(11:35):
But one of the other strangeideas again, it fits in with
this claim of original androgyny, or primordial androgyny as
sometimes it's called is thatsomehow the Adam in Genesis 2
was a male and female being andthen God, as it were, split the
Adam and took the woman part outthat's not the picture and took
the woman part out.
That's not the picture.
The picture is no.
(11:58):
He is man, and part of the sideof the man is taken and then
built into a separate human, butone who is well complementary
in her sex.
Okay, so what he needs is a,the Hebrew there, an ezer
khanegdo, a helper, likeopposite him.
She is like him in humanity,opposite him in her sex, and so
(12:18):
then they can come together, youknow, as husband and wife and
so on.
But anyway, it's a verybeautiful, rich picture.
Now there was one thing wejumped over in Genesis 1,
actually, if you want to go,back to it.
Because you mentioned in yourintro that people have tried to
argue and they do from Genesis 1, that there are potentially
more than two sexes.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not just light, dark, but
kind of dawn and dusk.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So, again, Genesis 2 is clear it's only a man and a
woman.
There's no others there.
But Genesis 1, yes, you havethese night and day, and some
will say, yes, okay, that's fine, but between night and day
we've got dawn and dusk, andyou've got land and sea.
And, yes, in between land andsea we've got swamps and marshes
and amphibians, Amphibians yeah, you've got land animals, sea
(13:04):
creatures, and yet you've gotthese hybrid species that seem
to be able to function in bothenvironments.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So they put there in the argument that it's not
simple binary.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, these so-called binaries may be more complex,
and so maybe that also appliesto male and female, that, yes,
these are two poles at the endof the spectrum, but perhaps in
between there are other sexes.
Okay, you've almost persuadedme.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Pull me back.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and superficially it
sounds like quite a strongargument.
Now, first of all, of course,we're dealing with, again,
unique things in each case, andthe man and the woman, clearly,
or male and female, as it is inGenesis 1.
We're not told if that's thecase there, if there's something
in between, but there'scertainly no indication of that.
(13:51):
It's humanity in God's image,male and female, made he them.
And then, of course, verse 28follows on from verse 27,.
Be fruitful and multiply.
And so it's the male and femalethat, of course, is required
for procreation.
And again, if we just stepaside into the realm of biology
(14:12):
for a moment, we actually knowthere is no third sex,
biologically speaking, there'sno third gamete, there's no
third gonad right, there's nothird type of genitalia, it's
even the amphibians, it's maleand female.
Exactly yes, one scholar haspointed out, amphibians can't
reproduce other than male andfemale, and that's all that's
required, and so it's justsimply not the case that there
(14:36):
are more than two sexes.
And this comes out mostdramatically, I think, in the
flood narrative, right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Because how many?
Oh yes, of course, it's two bytwo.
The.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Hebrew is very clear it's two and two, two and two,
two and two, two and two, maleand female, zachar and Nekevar,
same terms of Genesis 1.
There are no other sexes.
Now, at this point some peoplesay well, hang on.
But what about people who areborn intersexes Sometimes the
term is used or, as I think,perhaps better said, born with a
(15:08):
disorder of sex development,which means they haven't
developed straightforwardly asperhaps a male or female?
There may be some confusion atsome level, perhaps in terms of
genitalia or something and ourheart wants to go out to that
person, absolutely, absolutely.
We're talking about a verysmall percentage of people, you
know, because 99.98% of peopleare born straightforwardly.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That's the percentage 99.98%.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yes, straightforwardly, male and
female.
But again there's a small butsignificant number of people
absolutely, who have these and Ithink we should rightly say
post-fall conditions, becauseall of our bodily disorders and
dysfunctions they're allpost-fall, they're all
consequences of sin and deathcoming into the world.
(15:52):
But there are some people whohave these conditions.
But these conditions don'tcreate a third sex.
They just simply mean that sexfor some people is not
straightforward.
But that itself does not createa third sex.
And you get a wonderfulindication of how the Bible
thinks about this in Matthew 19,the very passage where Jesus
brings Genesis 127 and 224together, because at the
(16:16):
beginning of the chapter, ashe's talking about marriage and
divorce and so on, he says fromthe beginning God made them male
and female, not just in thebeginning, but from the
beginning.
This is God's pattern goingforward.
And yet, come to verse 12 ofthat chapter, he introduces some
, he says, who are eunuchs frombirth.
And now here is one of a numberof rabbinic and Hebrew
(16:38):
categories of someone with anintersex condition.
In this case eunuchs wereregarded as men, but men who are
unable to functionreproductively because of, again
, a disorder of sex development.
If it was from birth, they wereeither their penis had not
developed or their testes notdeveloped, or whatever it was,
(16:59):
they were a eunuch from birth.
But that doesn't disturb thebasic fact that sex remains male
and female binary, that fromthe beginning God made them male
and female.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Let's go to that end of Genesis 2 verse.
This is why a man leaves hisfather and mother bonds with his
wife.
They'll become one flesh.
The man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
I mean, many of us would saythat's one of the most important
verses in the Scriptures forunderstanding marriage.
(17:34):
Certainly verse 24, yes, what'sthe implication for the whole
transgender discussion there?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, well, several.
First of all, as we said before, jesus puts Genesis 1 and 2
together, telling us that males,men, husbands, females, women,
wives.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
A man leaves his father and mother bonds with his
wife.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So there's no disrupting of that, and if there
was, it would kind of dismantlethe whole system a little.
In the Bible's sexual ethics, Imean, you can't even just, for
example, just to step aside fromit, you can't have the
prohibitions against homosexualbehaviour unless there is a
stable sex and gender connection, because otherwise the whole
thing just kind of makes nosense.
(18:19):
So again the Bible is assumingand stating in fact that again
male man, husband, father,female woman wife mother, so
that's all there.
Father, female woman, wife,mother, so that's all there.
And it also tells us that,again, marriage is one of the
primary purposes of us beingmade male and female, and the
(18:40):
context into which children areto be born.
It's not the only purpose ofbeing male and female.
As we see, not everybodymarries, not every married
couple can have children.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So, again, there's more to being male and female
than simply it being aboutmarriage, and only a male can be
a son and only a woman can be adaughter.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That's right.
So, yes, even if you're nevermarried, you're still a woman,
still a daughter, still a sister, still an auntie, Still an
auntie.
Yeah, now, but verse 25.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, I think this issue of naked and no shame.
I mean I was reading throughyour book and I mean I've
thought about those issues andcovering up in Chapter 3 when, I
sinned and that kind of thing.
But you showed me avulnerability that I don't think
(19:31):
I had thought about, or a levelof vulnerability that I don't
think I had thought about, or alevel of vulnerability that I
don't think I had thought aboutbefore.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yes, when I really began digging into 225, I just
thought this is a staggeringpicture.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
New ground Well, it was new ground for me yeah, we
easily just jump over it.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
They were naked and not ashamed.
But when we realise we don'tknow that experience that bodily
shame because we live on theother side of the fall, bodily
shame is just par for the coursewith us.
We instinctively cover up, asthey did.
But 225, no, there's no need tocover up.
(20:11):
They are unashamed, uninhibited, perhaps even you might say
blissfully unaware of theirnaked.
It just doesn't occur to themto be self-conscious.
And so it's just a verybeautiful picture of total
openness, total freedom, zerofear, zero threat.
They're not a danger to eachother, there's no vulnerability.
(20:35):
So it's just such a wonderfulimage, which then is shattered
only a few verses later, inChapter 3, when, after they sin,
they are immediately afraid,firstly of God, and rightly, but
then of each other, and so theystart to hide from each other,
they protect themselves fromeach other.
They actually make loincloths,and so you know again, they're
(20:58):
covering their genitalia.
They're not just, as it were,just putting a coat on, as it
were.
They're actually covering thoseparts of their anatomy that
distinguish them most clearlyfrom one another as male and
female and are now areas ofpotential threat to each other.
So, yeah, it's quite a dramaticshift that is meant to lift us
(21:20):
up and then kind of decimate usor deeply disturb us, as it
should.
So yeah, shame and sexualsensitivity, those things go
together.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So when I want to hide my genitalia, you know
there's something in that thatresonates with the transgender
experience.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, certainly can do, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, we
know from many accounts thatmany people who have sought to
well take on a trans identityhave done so in order to escape
from their given sex, becausethey have been in some way
shamed in that sex most dramaticform of that shaming.
(22:14):
But people can be sexuallyshamed in other ways too and
made fun of and even pick upcultural messages that it's
shameful to be a boy, that it'stoxic to be a male and these
kinds of messages.
So we're all ashamed becausewe're all men and all sinners,
and yet there is a focus ofshame around our genitalia and
(22:36):
that can be very muchexacerbated by them particular
life experiences that somepeople have, and it makes total
sense that some would think theway to solve this problem is to
escape my sex.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okay, we head outside the garden to the Lord Jesus
Christ.
I mean, we've already touchedon Matthew 19.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Is there anywhere else we want to go to in terms
of Christ on this, Well, yes,absolutely, because the only
person, ultimately, who can takeour shame away is him, and I
mean that is the great promiseof the gospel, that all who
confess his name will not be putto shame.
And so he is the antidote toour fallenness and everything
(23:25):
that goes into that fallenness.
Now, again, one of the thingsJesus shows us is that the way
God has made us is good.
It's the way, again, he intendsus to be, and what it means for
us to grow and to flourish andto indeed be sanctified and made
(23:47):
like him is to, as it were, tolead into our creativeness, to
go with the grain of ourcreativeness.
So one of the discoveries I madein the process well,
discovery's a bit too strong,but one of the things that was
highlighted for me is just thegoodness of God's commands,
because all of his commands arereally about teaching us and
(24:08):
showing us how to work with thegrain of our createdness, and so
the commands, in that sense,reveal created order to us.
You know, as fallen sinners, wedon't always know what.
We can't just read off now fromyou know, post-fall creation,
how it's all meant to work.
We need Scripture to guide usas to what is true, what is good
(24:29):
, what is beautiful.
And it does that through thelaws do that, the commands do
that.
So you know, take a commandlike Deuteronomy 22.5, which is
a prohibition againstcross-dressing.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I'll just read it here A woman shall not wear a
man's garment, nor shall a manput on a woman's cloak, for
whoever does these things is anabomination to the Lord, your
God.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a very strong prohibition
with a very strong term at theend, which is again a term used
in particular commands.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Abomination makes you kind of stop in your steps.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, it's saying this is a serious violation of
God's order and intention.
And so why should this be seenso significantly?
Well, it's because there ishere a going against the grain
of one's creativeness.
There is a denial or adisguising or a deceiving of
others as to who and what Godmade us to be, and so the
(25:30):
commands, particularly thewarnings like this one, are
saying no, don't go there.
This is not the way of life.
There's a way that seems rightto a man, but its end is the way
of death.
This is not going to help.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
How does a New Testament.
Christian read that verse inDeuteronomy 22?
.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, we need to, of course, look at the Old
Testament law carefully and seewhat the New Testament is doing
with it.
Christians, historically, haveoften distinguished different
types of commands moral commands, civil commands, ceremonial
commands and certainly there aresome commands in the Old
Testament that no longer applyto us the food laws, the
sacrificial laws and so on.
(26:07):
It doesn't mean we can't learnthings from them.
There's much we should learnfrom them, but we're not meant
to obey them as were to theletter.
But there are other commandsthat are clearly moral, they've
got to do with again createdorder, created good.
This, I believe, is certainlyone of them, and the New
Testament has some parallels tothis, both in its sexual ethics,
but also in a passage ascomplex as it is, like 1
(26:31):
Corinthians 11, where there's aclear concern on the part of the
Apostle Paul that men and womenare recognisable as men and
women when they're praying andprophesying when they're praying
and prophesying when they'regathered together, that we're
not confusing each other, we'renot again denying, disguising,
somehow blurring our sexualdistinctiveness.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Let me boil up the other one that's discussed and
debated in Deuteronomy,deuteronomy 23.1.
Sure, we now come to the secondof the prohibitions.
No one whose testicles arecrushed or whose male organ is
cut off shall enter the assemblyof the Lord.
I mean, again, that's a pretty,I mean testicle crushing, I
(27:18):
mean that's a kind ofconfronting statement yes, but
to be shut out of the temple.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, now again, we need to understand well the Old
Testament world and particularlywell the biblical thought
around.
You know what it means toappear before the Lord.
Now, one of the things that theOld Testament scholars will
tell you and tell me is thatthere is a link in much Old
Testament thought betweenholiness and wholeness, and so
(27:48):
there are certain people whocan't become priests, for
example, because there'ssomething they have a bodily
defect or disfigurement orsomething.
There's something.
They have a bodily defect ordisfigurement or something.
There's something that'sunwhole about them and therefore
they don't qualify to enter theholy place.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Something like the leprosy type thing.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah that kind of thing.
So now that obviously to usmight seem sad and indeed unkind
, but it's sending a messagethat of is a message we all need
to hear, and every Israeliteneeded to hear, which is that
unless we are holy, we can'tcome before a holy God and
(28:26):
expect to stand, and of course,that's why sacrifices were
needed, that's why blood neededto be shed and so on.
But in regard to thisparticular command, the Bible
does something with this as itsstory unfolds, because we get to
this wonderful promise inIsaiah 56 that God is going to,
as it were, reverse thisdirective and is going to
(28:50):
include the faithful, thebelieving eunuch, among his
people and give them aninheritance better than sons and
daughters says the text.
And well then, of course thatfollows into the New Testament
when we see the fulfilment of itin the conversion of the
Ethiopian eunuch Acts, chapter 8.
(29:10):
Acts, chapter 8.
Okay so, yeah, no-transcript.
Acts, chapter 8.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Okay, so yeah, let's just dig into that because
that's exciting.
I mean, when I read theEthiopian eunuch passage I'm
just thinking oh wow, a non-Jew,yes, but there's something
really exciting about thecrushed testicle person being
welcomed into the presence of.
I mean.
(29:33):
So this is one where the NewTestament has overturned the Old
Testament.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
right, yes, well, it certainly is saying that this,
no longer this restriction ofDeuteronomy 22.1, now no longer
23.1.
23.1, sorry, 23.1, no longerapplies in the new covenant.
That well, not only haveGentiles been welcomed in, which
is part of the Isaiah prophecy,but even eunuchs are welcomed
(30:00):
in.
And so you know, god is dealingwith something even deeper here
, because he's again cleansinghearts and opening hearts.
And so when the eunuch says toPhilip you know, is there
anything to prevent me frombeing baptised?
I'm sure he had in his mind,his….
Speaker 1 (30:17):
He's not just thinking I'm not a Jew, he's
thinking I've got crushedtesticles.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, and Philip says nothing whatsoever.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Here's the Lord Leaping and jumping and praising
God.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So that's wonderful.
So I've spent time in the bookon this passage because, unlike
Deuteronomy 22.5, I think,Deuteronomy 23.1 takes a
different path and it's verygood news, therefore, for the
person who and I know manypeople who have taken this path
themselves, who have hadsurgeries in the hope that this
(30:52):
will bring relief to theirgender confusion, their gender
dysphoria, have had parts oftheir bodies removed that can
never be put back to know thatthat is not a problem to God,
and they're reading Acts 8 withthat joy that you've just
described.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Isn't that exciting?
Yeah, so they can have a nameand an inheritance.
Better than sons and daughters,they are fully welcomed.
They're not second class.
Their bodily condition makes nodifference to their status in
the kingdom.
And now, of course, ahead ofthem is resurrection.
But even now there's just noproblem knowing the Lord,
(31:36):
serving the Lord and being partof his people.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Hallelujah, we're almost out of time, but trans
and the resurrection.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the resurrection of thebody is what we're talking about
, and it's not just aresurrection of persons or souls
or something.
No, resurrection is a bodilyidea, and I think it's very
clear in Scripture that we aregoing to be raised in these
self-same bodies, not givendifferent bodies, but at the
(32:04):
same time these bodies will betransformed and made perfect,
made indeed immortal,imperishable, glorious beyond
our imaginings.
And so, yeah, the idea thatsomehow we'll be raised asexual
or raised all male, as some havepondered, no, we will be raised
(32:24):
as us, just like Jesus wasraised as Jesus.
He is still the man, christJesus.
He is, as one writer says, andwill always be, a circumcised
Jewish male, because that is thebody that lived, that is the
body that died, that is the bodythat was raised, that is the
body that ascended, that is thebody that will come again, of
the Lord Jesus.
And likewise, with us.
(32:45):
And again, for those who haveperhaps wrestled with their sex
and have had struggles acceptingthat sex, some may find this
confusing Do I really want aresurrection of this body?
Well, again, it won't be thisbody in the sense that it won't
(33:05):
have any of the problems of thisbody, but it will be this body,
in that it will be a perfected,transformed, glorified version,
and all that troubles you aboutyour body now will not trouble
you then.
There will be no dysphoria, nodisappointment only happiness.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Dr Rob Smith has been my guest.
He's Doctrine Lecturer atSydney Missionary and Bible
College.
The author of this book, theBody God Gives A Biblical
Response to Transgender Theory.
You could obviously go buy thatbook, but we spoke to Rob a
couple of months ago under theheading of the Body God Gives,
(33:47):
back in February on the Pastor'sHeart.
You could go and find that myname's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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