December 18, 2025 • 33 mins
How to preach Christmas that engages and connects. -
We've pulled in three experts to help us prepare for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. We share talk structures, attention hooks, and illustrations that connect with guests who didn’t come for a sermon but need a Saviour.
Sam Chan talks about tailoring length, tone, and imagery for each.
Andrew Barry frames Christmas with a pastoral lens: some in the room are celebrating their first Christmas in Christ, others their last -- and how this shapes content and cadence, putting joy and gravity side by side.
Adrian Russell talks about speaking into tragedy at Christmas, by preaching peace that is more than a feeling—reconciliation with God that makes real.
For Christmas morning, we share passages and closes that put God’s face turned toward us and the cross in view, with invitations that are personal and memorable.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:38):
Hey, happy Christmas from us at the Pastors Heart.
It is Dominic Steele, and looktoday, last-minute Christmas
talk suggestions.
I'm imagining that for you likeme, uh, this run-up to Christmas
has been super busy, and uh soI've phoned a friend to help me
with the Christmas talkpreparation.
Well, I've phoned three friendsto help me, and they're here
Andrew Barry, senior minister ofMenai Church to the south of
(01:00):
Sydney, Ozzy Evangelist with theCity Bible Forum, Sam Chan, and
Adrian Russell from NorthmeadAnglican Church.
And uh look, just toacknowledge, this is our last
Pastor's Heart episode for 2025before we take a couple of week
break.
Um, and uh let's start with thePastor's Heart and Sam Chan,
you're the best dressed.
(01:20):
Um no one else got the memo.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
I feel like there's no person.
This is fancy dress, but you cantell anyone else.
So I'm the doofers that turn upin fancy dress.
SPEAKER_03 (01:32):
I think you look great.
I think you look wonderful too,Dominic.
Where's your that's right?
Look, um uh Sam, what's yourpast as you sit down for
Christmas?
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
It's Christmas, but this year I've been the best
prepared ever.
I got all my Christmas shoppingdone on Black Friday.
I had an Excel spreadsheet outlike every Asian wood, and I had
all the names, all the presents,and where to get the stuff from.
SPEAKER_03 (02:00):
See, Andrew Barry, that's what you should have
done.
He's staying quiet.
Um, keep coming.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Yep, yep.
And so then I got into sermonprep.
I know maybe I pulled that cardout way too early, but this
month was challenging because Ineeded a gingerbread housemaking
event talk.
Then I needed an under 10-minuteuh talk for Carols and for my
City Bible Forum workplaceswhere I speak in workplaces
(02:28):
about Christmas, and finally the20, 30 minute talk for Christmas
Day at church.
SPEAKER_03 (02:33):
Um, and what's your heart as you come to do this?
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Oh, there's always that mixed feeling of dread,
like it's Christmas again.
How do I come up with somethingfresh to say?
But also just the excitementlike, hey, this is what it's all
about, Christmas.
Um, and heaps of people invitefriends and family who don't
normally go to church, and thisis a great chance now to think
how can I win hearts and mindsover to Jesus?
(03:00):
Dread and excitement, AdrianRussell.
SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
Well, I think that that's everyone's experience at
Christmas, isn't it?
It's super stressful andintense, and yet it's a time of
joy and wonder and amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
As a preacher, dread and excitement.
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Yeah, I think that's I feel the same thing in terms
of trying to figure out how doyou do honour to this really
significant moment that God cameinto the world.
Um, the challenge I'm alwaysfacing is I reckon Christmas is
like the first episode of aseason, it's like the first act
of a movie, in that sometimeswe're thinking about what it
achieves rather than what itleads to.
(03:32):
So as I'm trying to thinkthrough Christmas, I'm trying to
think, how do I connect it tothe cross?
How do I connect it to what'snext?
And I feel like if if peopleleave our church thinking that
was a great story, then wehaven't really told the story
right.
It's it's where it heads to.
So I'm feeling that pressure ofthe joy, the fun, the wonder of
angels and shepherds, but whereit leads to, that the grown
(03:54):
Jesus lives for us, dies for us,rises for us.
So feeling how to do thatproperly.
SPEAKER_03 (03:59):
How do you think about what's your aim, Andrew
Barry, in a Christmas talk?
What are you what are youshooting for?
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I think I often think about probably two groups
of people.
I think of um, I think peoplewho it's their first Christmas
and people who it's their lastChristmas.
And I think the people withfirst Christmas, I actually the
thing that gets me the mostexcited is because I think
Christmas is a moment.
I think that people sort oftrace their life cycles by how
many Christmases left and howmany Christmases they've had.
(04:25):
And I love there might be like20 people across the building on
the weekend who've becomeChristians that year.
And I think this is your firstChristmas as a Christian, or
people who have becomeChristians, Christians at that
time.
I I love people becomingchildren of God at Christmas,
but but also the idea thatpeople might have become
Christians sometime.
This is their first timeactually experiencing it as a
(04:47):
Christian.
But then on the other side, I dothink of the last Christmas.
I I think that and I think it'simportant to think about this.
There are some people in theroom who it's their last
Christmas before they go, andsome people know that.
And I just so thankful that theyturn up and um the effort they
make to be there.
And and I just think there'ssomething really precious about
being able to give the lastChristmas talk to someone as
(05:08):
well as the first.
SPEAKER_03 (05:10):
What's your aim, Sam, as you think about
Christmas morning?
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
Yeah, so my primary aim is because I work for City
Bible Forum, I'm invited tospeak in workplaces to a crowd
of uh it's a mix betweenbelievers and non-believers.
I found and so just as anexample, in the last two weeks,
I've spoken at Westpac,Commonwealth Bank, Cochlear,
Department of Justice, Deloitte,and I've got KPMG coming up.
(05:34):
I actually asked the workerswho've invited me, what are you
wanting me to tell the friendsthat you've brought along?
Like, what is the pain point fora worker coming to a Christmas
party at the end of the year?
And I'm also thinking when Ispeak at Christmas Day, heaps of
the friends and family arecoming to keep their parents
happy.
You know, they're they're justI'll come once a year to church,
(05:58):
not because I believe in it, notbecause I enjoy it, but just to
make mum and dad happy.
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
Okay.
So what do the workers tell youthey want you to do?
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
Yeah, I think they say the pain point for a worker
is I can't believe one year hasgone by.
How is it Christmas already?
It feels like it was justyesterday we had a Christmas
party.
So I think the pain point is oneyear has gone by, but my life is
not any better before because ofthat.
And does that mean in one year'stime I'll still be living the
(06:30):
same life?
Will I be happy if I'm the sameperson I am next year?
What are you aiming for, Andrew?
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
Well, I'm aiming to express in lots of uh clear,
upfront spoken ways, but alsojust lots of intangible ways,
the joy and the community thatrelationship with God creates.
So you want it to be a happytime.
So that really just flows outof.
You know God, you know his love,you know he cares, you know he
came near to us and he wants us.
(06:59):
And so to express that clearlyin the talks, but also just in
the whole vibe of theenvironment.
So people walk in the door.
Um, we had someone at our carolsthe other night uh who came from
a different country 15 yearsago, and they said, this is a
part of Australia I've neverseen before.
Um, this community, this joy,this celebration.
And to be able to express thatin intangible ways, just the
(07:22):
vibe of being together.
So I want people to see not justthis is the message of
Christianity, but this is whateffect it has on people.
We love to be together acrossgenerations and we love to
celebrate.
Jesus is awesome.
So that's kind of the big aim, Ithink.
SPEAKER_03 (07:38):
Can I just say, listening to you three there, it
felt like you're all giving methe distinction level answer.
If I was to say what the pastlevel answer was, I think I'd
say I'm looking for repentanceand faith.
And so therefore I would say Iwant to speak of Jesus as Lord
and Savior.
You know, and if there's anytalk that I want to get that
(07:58):
right, Lord and Savior with theapplicant.
He's Lord, therefore you shouldrepent.
He's saviour, therefore youshould trust.
You know, if there's any talk Iwant to get that right, pray
that I might proclaim it clearlyas I should.
Um, it's Christmas Day, isn'tit?
But that's my pass level.
Whereas when you were speaking,then you were talking
distinction level, I think.
Isn't that true?
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
Well, you want us to aim for high distinctions.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
Well, I want you to do better.
Well, I want you to get past,but then I want you to get
distinction.
I mean, I'm just shooting for apass, but no, I no, I want to
get distinction as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
In one sense, we're facing the challenge of is
Christmas a time when people aremore open to hearing about Jesus
and the things of the Bible?
There's a way that that isanswered, the answer is yes.
But is Christmas a time whenpeople are so distracted by a
bunch of stuff?
Actually, not much of the realmessage of the gospel gets
through to them.
(08:48):
So I've I feel that tension inthat what we want to preach
first and foremost is the deathand resurrection of Jesus, that
he came to save us from sin.
SPEAKER_03 (08:57):
That's the Lord and Savior point.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
That Jesus is the King forever because he lived
and died and rose again and herescues us from sin.
But what I find at Christmas isone of the challenges is the
people are so like the Christmasstory, they aren't particularly
open to where it goes.
So, how do I keep weaving thatin?
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
So, how do we do it, Sam?
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Yeah, so how do we on-ramp them?
Well, there are many on-ramps,but at Christmas, one of the
easiest ones at Christmas for meis that the angel tells Joseph
to name him Jesus.
Why?
Because it means he will savehis people from their sins.
So, right from the start, yougot the word sin there.
So, this is the problem Jesuscomes to address.
(09:39):
So then we can say the reasonwhy Jesus comes is not this, not
this, not this.
And that means our primary need,even though it feels that way,
is not more holidays, owningmore stuff, living longer.
Our primary need is we needsomeone to save us from our
sins.
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
How do you do?
I mean, this is kind of theperennial question.
Yeah.
I'm always looking for a freshway in this kind of talk to
explain sin.
So help give let's go for anidea from each of you.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
I I I think the best Christmas talk I heard was about
30 years ago, and I haven'tforgotten it.
And I won't mention who preachedit because I don't want to um
yeah to show favouritism, eventhough he was the Archbishop of
Sydney and the former uh head ofMoore College.
But um uh it was about it wasusing the the illustration of
credit cards and how everyoneracks up massive credit card
(10:33):
debt.
And I I it was just a reallylong introduction, and it was
really we felt the weight of theproblem, and then felt the
weight of the problem of humansin being just like that, that
our credit card debt before Godwas so extraordinary.
Uh and then and then it was itwas from 2 Corinthians, you
know, he who was rich beyond allsplendor, yet for our sake
became poor, that by through hispower he might we might become
(10:54):
rich.
And I think there was the greatexchange there.
I I have not forgotten that.
You know, that was one of those,yes, it was the gospel like
every other time, but it wastold so well that for 30 years
it stuck in my head, and so Ithink sometimes you've got to
think of ways like that.
You can't always most most ofthe most of the sermons we we we
(11:14):
give will be I hate to say it,forgotten in a week, but
sometimes something like thatwill stick.
SPEAKER_03 (11:21):
Adrian, um sin illustrated well in a Christ
Christmas talk.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah, I think we're we are looking for the easy way
to describe sin, but the realityis it's confronting and people
will not want us to talk aboutit.
So we just have to go there.
Wrongdoing, worthy of uhjudgment.
Uh, I think in many ways, uh,the sense that we are um
disconnected from God and thefact that uh we we can't have
(11:48):
that relationship that we crave.
And what's interesting is thatuh Christmas, I think, like a
lot of things in life, bringsout the best and the worst of
humanity.
And so if you said to someone,imagine if it was Christmas
every day, um, there'd beelements of, oh, how good would
that be?
Don't have to go to work.
And but imagine if it wasChristmas every day.
Wow.
(12:08):
The tension, the fights, thestress, the selfishness, the
pain, the grief, all that kindof stuff.
So I think in one sense,Christmas does open up.
There's more going on than thatsuperficial tinsel-covered life.
People are really hurting, andto kind of indicate that that is
disconnection from God becauseof defiance of God, um, uh, as a
(12:29):
way of trying to get to get inon that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:31):
What have you done this?
You've been doing every five orsix Christmas talks.
What are you doing this?
SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
This year I went with let's make fun of men,
because men hate asking forhelp.
So it's humbling to be told Ineed help, but it's insulting to
be told I need to be saved.
So this is a very insultingmessage.
And then I said, one way ofexplaining sin is it's a chicken
and egg problem.
You know, from a chicken comesan egg, but from an egg comes a
(12:56):
chicken.
So which comes first?
So we are broken in nature, butbecause we're broken in nature,
we break things.
And one of those things are thelaws that God has programmed
into the universe.
And because we keep breaking hislaws, we end up more broken.
So at Christmas, Jesus becomesone of us, the incarnation, so
(13:18):
we can have a new nature, butone day he's going to die on a
cross to give us a brand newstart where we're innocent.
So I actually was able to juggleboth the incarnation and the
atonement by using the chickenand egg analogy for brokenness
and breaking things.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Hey, how would you change or not change your
Christmas sermon this year,given the massacre this week in
uh in Bond?
I mean, I was talking to theArchbishop of Sydney uh earlier
in the week, and uh he was here,and we I was just walking out
with him, and I said, Oh, whatdo you got to do?
What's coming up?
(13:56):
And he said, Oh, I've got tospeak at another couple of carol
services, and I'm gonna have tochange my talk because of the
massacre.
But um, so he's clearly changinghis talk.
What are you thinking aboutthat, Henry?
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
Yeah, look, I think um I think we need to.
I mean, Christ comes into theworld to save sinners and he
comes in the darkness, and Ithink the light comes in the
darkness.
So massacres, hardship.
In fact, when Christ was born,there was a master.
There was a massacre, yeah.
And so I he comes into thesemoments.
I think we need to show that allevery year at Christmas, but
(14:31):
particularly this year.
I think one other trend I'veseen, Dominic, is a lot of
ministers love the incarnationof Jesus and their preaching,
but not the particularity ofJesus being born a Jew.
And I think there's been amodern I think it's
anti-Semitism from preachers toback away from Jesus being
Jewish, the king of Israel, etc.
(14:52):
etc.
I think this year we need toembrace and step forward and say
he is the king of the Jews, he'sthe lion of the tribe of Judah,
he's still Jewish.
And um, and uh I think that'ssuper important.
And I think we need to beholding that out, um, which
which is offensive to everyonein a way, but it's also the
saving gospel.
And I think I think it'sactually one of the the the
(15:14):
great news of he's not justdidn't just come as the
everyman, he came as theparticular, and he came as the
particular in the Jewish nation.
Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
And he came to bring peace uh between us and God and
between Jew and Gentile.
Yep.
So the only peace we have is inJesus Christ.
SPEAKER_03 (15:33):
So are you going to change your talk to what we're
doing?
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
I think you definitely have to mention it
and say we need Christmas nowmore than ever.
Uh, but also to reveal that thisis not a new thing.
This has been happening throughthe world in time for forever.
And so to be reminded of it'sraw and fresh right now, but
Jesus is the solution to this.
Jesus, there is a before and anafter when Jesus comes and when
(15:56):
He his effect has an impact onpeople's lives, uh, it
completely transforms the waythey relate to people, the way
they relate to people who aredifferent to them.
So to talk about thattransformation with our
relationship with God and eachother, we got to mention it, but
this is it's real peace.
Peace isn't just a warm andfuzzy feeling.
Peace is God is no longer at warwith us, therefore we are united
(16:17):
together.
Um, and so I I think definitelywe need to mention it uh and
talk about it, but not lose oursense of joy and celebration.
It's interesting that theangels, when they come to Joseph
and Mary and the shepherds, thefirst thing they say, don't be
afraid.
Because when a messenger fromheaven comes, the right instinct
is this is scary.
(16:38):
What's God gonna do?
What he's gonna do is save youand love you and forgive you.
So what about you, Sam, changingthe talk?
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, it's it gives you a much more definite,
concrete landing point or entrypoint because we preach
Christmas as light, peace, hope,and up until now they've been
these very fuzzy abstract nouns.
But now we realise no, thisexists because there is such a
thing as darkness, pain, hurt,hate, injustice, and suffering.
That's why we preach light,hope, and peace.
(17:07):
And I guess even if we don'tmention it directly in our talk,
because sometimes you've onlybeen given like three minutes or
five minutes, the MC could makereference to it.
Or the person introducing thecarol will say, Hey, we're gonna
sing about light.
That's because this is a worldof darkness.
Maybe this is a good time tohave that wake-up call that, you
know, the 20th century ended upon so much optimism.
It was like, hey, we just needbetter government, better
(17:29):
education, better medicine, andthe juggernaut of progress is
just going to keep on going.
But this is the wake-up callthat no, no, those things are
good, but they're not enough.
You know, we we do need asupernatural savior to intervene
into our world.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
I wonder in the in the helplessness people feel in
these moments, it's a chance tosay, well, God does the
impossible.
Uh, a virgin gives birth to ason.
Um, the creator becomes part ofcreation and he removes the
barriers and brings love andunity where there was hostility
and violence.
(18:05):
So Christmas is about God doingthe impossible, and we can we
can definitely land that intowhat's been happening.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
And also it shows the uniqueness of the Christian
worldview because atheism sayssuffering's an illusion, it's a
construct.
Eastern religions say thesolution is removal from
suffering.
Yeah.
But we have a God who came downand suffers with us.
Joined in.
SPEAKER_03 (18:28):
I mean, in a sense, I think I find it easier to do
the talk when we know there'spain.
In that what I'm meaning is um,I mean, this is not the first
time we've had a Christmas talkin a difficult season.
Um I remember speaking Christmasin a time of war, Christmas in a
time of bushfires.
Do you know the there've beenmoments when there's been a
disaster going on aroundChristmas before this time, and
(18:52):
when we can speak into that painmoment, the gospel's at its
strength, do you know?
Yeah.
Um talking of speaking ofChristmas into pain, you've been
running Blue Christmas for awhile.
Um talk to us about how youconstruct the talk there
compared to what you might do onuh on if you like one of the
(19:14):
more fun days, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
And what is Blue Christmas for those?
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Well we do Blue Christmas, people call it many
things, but um a a chance forpeople to reflect.
It's more of a reflectiveservice where people who've
maybe had a harder year orthings gone wrong.
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
So you're doing silent night, not joy to the
world.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Yeah, maybe.
Uh it's it's basically we we wetalk about it as we're singing
the sing we're still praisingGod, but we're praising God in a
minor key.
And I I think we're more likeSimeon and Anna waiting for the
consolation of Jerusalem, andmaybe less like the angels
singing praise to God.
And and I think uh what we do islook, the talk can be can be not
(19:52):
that different, but it can butjust acknowledging the pain in
the room and and that and thatChrist comes for it, and not
just the pain in the world.
I think I I actually think ourworlds have a lot of pain
without the news world, and andI think there's people who've
lost someone, there's peoplewho've I know people who come
into our blue Christmas who lostsomeone years ago, and they've
only this year been ready tocome to one of these kind of
(20:15):
services.
Um we we go low tech, no noannouncements, and at the end of
the service we say So when yousay low tech, do you mean
acoustic guitar or what do youmean?
We just mean like a single wewell, we just have a piano and
singer, but we have no nothing.
On the screens, um, justeverything handouts.
Try as much as possible to haveum and but at the end of the
(20:37):
service, we do something that'svery different.
We we don't say please stayaround afterwards, we actually
say please please leave quietly.
And and then if you want tostay, someone will come and pray
with you.
And we've found that half, maybeprobably more than half people
stay behind and someone prayswith them.
And and and even though they'renot as big as our other
services, I I think there'ssignificant ministry that can
(20:58):
happen.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
As you've thought about, I mean you've been
thinking about it for a while,where in the month of December
do you run it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
We do it about a week before Christmas.
But it really depends whereChristmas falls.
Um, every minister, I don't knowabout you, Dominic.
I always look every year I thinkwhere's Christmas falling this
year?
SPEAKER_03 (21:16):
I think about times of Christmas Eve service, always
but but we try to do it about aweek before.
SPEAKER_01 (21:21):
I mean, basically, um it also does work for people
who go on holidays.
So we get a few people who alsojust want to come and join as a
church.
SPEAKER_03 (21:31):
How do you think about scheduling in December,
Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Yeah, we do try and work backwards in terms of
making sure that the way thedays work and the the the events
that we run fit in.
Um we we actually have had alittle three-week Christmas
series in the lead up toChristmas because sometimes we
feel like you're not alwayspaying full attention at Carol's
and in the Christmas Eve.
So just an opportunity to thinkJesus coming is um really
(21:56):
significant in the lead up tothat.
But there doesn't seem to be anyway around the fact that
December is ridiculouslyintensely busy.
And every year I think we're notdoing it like that next time.
Um, and it happens again.
You just have to do it, I think.
SPEAKER_03 (22:11):
Sam, let's come back to the point you made earlier
about um the different talks thegingerbread talk, the um the
city worker talk, the ChristmasDay talk.
Um, help.
I mean, did you do the sameBible passage for all of them?
Help me as you've thought I'mgonna put this in, not put this
in, do this for the differentones.
SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
Oh, yeah.
So it is a creative process, andyou don't know where you're
gonna end up, but you do end upsomewhere.
So the gingerbread housemakingevent, the vast majority of
people invited don't normally goto church.
SPEAKER_03 (22:42):
And they've come for gingerbread, not to hear sex.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
So it's the worst bait and switch.
And I think Christians forgetthat.
And in fact, we maybe we cantalk way more about this, even
how caras was run.
So the stay on gingerbread.
Yeah, the people invited aren'texpecting a monologue.
Christians are used tomonologues, and we're used to
20-minute monologues.
A non-church people is notexpecting a monologue.
(23:06):
And if it's a monologue, it's ausual one from the mayor that
says, Hey, thank you all forcoming, stay safe, see you next
year.
That's what they think you'regonna do, like a three-sentence
thing.
So it's the all- So what did youdo?
I'm all the years.
It was only it was three to fiveminutes, super quick.
But you've got to acknowledgethe gingerbread house.
I began with a funny story aboutmy wife and I went to a marriage
(23:27):
seminar, and the opening projectwas we had to make a house from
newspaper, and you had to decidedo I make the tallest,
strongest, most beautiful?
And my wife and I hadconflicting aims, and we hadn't
communicated that to each other.
So that was a metaphor for ourmarriage.
But I said, that's tonight whatwe're gonna do.
We're trying to work out what doI do with my house?
Do I want the tallest,strongest, or most beautiful
(23:48):
one?
I said, it's a metaphor forlife.
Like, do you want to be thetallest, strongest, most
beautiful person in the room orhow you want your children to
grow up?
Because that's what survival ofthe fittest is.
If there's no God, you do haveto be the strongest and tallest
and fittest.
And even if there's a God, mostreligions say you got to climb
that ladder up to God.
But the message of Christmas isno, Jesus came down the ladder
(24:10):
for you.
And what makes you special toGod is not whether you're tall,
beautiful, or strong, but areyou his?
Do you belong to him in Jesus?
And in front of you, you out ofyour house is the most precious
house out of everyone's in theroom because it's your house.
And that's the message ofChristmas.
You can be God's, and and that'swhere you find value and
(24:33):
validation.
SPEAKER_03 (24:34):
I really like that.
Thank you.
I hope none of our church arelistening to this for next
year's ginger.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
All of my church listens to this topic,
especially when you start thetalk with you and your wife went
to a marriage seminar and uh hadto make a house out of paper.
Yeah, do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
I was speaking at City Bible Forum once, and I I
had to go to Melbourne, and so Ihad to give Peter Caldwell, who
is the director of my notes, andhe said, um, he he stood up in
front of the 200 people there atCity Bible Forum and he said um
now Dominic's away this week,and uh, but he sent me his notes
through to speak from.
So um, I'll just do that.
And he said, I was lying in bedwith Kathy.
(25:17):
Of course, Peter's wife isBettina.
My wife is Kathy.
Sorry, that didn't happen.
It was a good moment.
Um, I don't know where we weregingerbread house.
We're now on to the next one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Oh, yeah, so then the the 10-minute talk to
workers, and usually carols,open air, so no slides.
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
Tell me about carols and open air, because we've you
do it, we never have, because Ijust think it's too hard.
SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
It is way too hard.
You fight against theenvironment, but you know, so I
think at the end you're alwaysthinking, okay, there were a
hundred things that didn't gowell, but there were ten things
that did go well, and maybe it'sworth it for the sake of the ten
things that did go well, butit's so hard.
I say it's like you're you'repreaching to free-range chickens
because they don't have to sitthere, they don't have to be
(26:11):
there, and they weren'texpecting the monologue.
SPEAKER_03 (26:14):
So somehow I mean, yeah, you're a very good
communicator, and so I could seethat you could hold a crowd in
that stand-up moment, whereas Idon't think I can hold the crowd
in that stand-up moment.
Do you know how do you do it?
Well, you can't put you foundit.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Um actually this year one of my sisters did it,
and I thought it was the Ithought it was the best.
SPEAKER_03 (26:36):
It was better.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
It was the much better than when I've done it.
And and what he did was I thinkyou with a it's you've got to
realize that you don't havepeople at church.
You you you instantaneously havean regular week at church, 60%,
70%, I don't know.
Oh yeah, but you have people aresitting there.
You probably have 10% of peoplewho are there already.
And uh we had you know, we had asuper hot day, thousands or
(26:59):
something people.
This guy, um uh my assistantminister started his talk with
with someone winning a prize,and they and he basically
smashed a uh big watermelon infront of the crowd, and and
inside was hidden the prize, andthen he started the talk.
Now, that was brilliant becauseif you don't do something like
(27:20):
that, you don't get peoplelistening to you.
SPEAKER_03 (27:23):
But they never teach you that in New Testament one.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
No, but what do you do after the watermelon?
SPEAKER_03 (27:32):
More watermelons.
What did he what happened next?
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
It was it was a it was a good it was a good clear
talk.
No, I actually think I think thebiggest, the hardest thing, we
know what to say, but we don'tknow how to get them at the
beginning sometimes.
And I think he just got them atthe beginning, you know.
Uh it's um it was short, sharp,uh a great message, but I I
don't think I I I I think it'sit's it's probably the hardest
(27:57):
environment to to preach in, butI just learned from from him
that you need a hook.
SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
I had I mean you've he's got a hook of a watermelon,
you've got a hook of a marriagecounseling.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
Yeah, so I do a watermelon, but it's even harder
because he'd come in with afunny story, but again, they're
still thinking, why is hetalking about that?
They they actually they weren'tprepared for that.
I think that's hard.
I just had a Byrd communityevent in a park.
It was a Burwood communitycarols.
This was not carols, so I'vedone a few carols, yeah, but
this was a separate event put onby Byrd Council.
(28:33):
So the mayor who has a free Soyou've got a wonky platform that
you're wonky platform, but theyengineered everything to make it
work.
And I so they got all the foodvans lined up to make it feel
like an amphitheater rather thanan open park.
Uh the mayor was on board, Ithink that was a big one.
He gave the church the mostprominent store, and it's called
(28:53):
the Burwood Church Community,and everyone's involved the
Anglicans, the Baptists, theSalvation Army, multiple
churches involved.
If I listen, I'm still gonnaleave one out.
Um and I think what made it workis it wasn't a Carol's night.
See, with Carols, people comeexpecting to sing, and they
think, well, why is a guytalking?
But it was a it was like aschool concert night.
(29:16):
There were people dancing, and Iget it.
You you paid attention while mykids dance, I'll pay attention
while you give your five-minutemonologue on behalf of the
churches.
But I did have to competeagainst Santa Claus in the
corner, a guy making bubblesover here.
Okay, so you guys are six footstill walking through the crowd
while I'm giving a talk.
(29:36):
So you you didn't.
And the SES let off their sidesas well.
I think you've just got to havelittle short, sharp.
Like if you watch, I know it'sanathema to say, but watch
stand-up comedians, they have apower line every third or fourth
sentence.
So you gotta speak in modules,make sure you land on a point
every third or fourth line.
(29:58):
How did you do it?
Well, that's how I did it.
Yeah.
I just said, hey, the worsttime, worst rugby game I had was
when I forgot my boots.
Something was missing.
My wife's worst banana bread waswhen she left out the baking
powder.
Something was missing.
Michael Jordan came out ofretirement three times.
Something was missing.
What's missing in your life?
(30:18):
I'm gonna tell you what it is.
Christmas gives it to you, butthen you don't answer the
question.
Then you launch off onto likefour or five other
illustrations, land on a verse,and end with the Christmas
story.
SPEAKER_03 (30:29):
Okay, I'm just gonna quickly say, what's your plan
for this Christmas Day passagestructure, Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
We we've in our series, we've done the peace of
Christmas past, the joy ofChristmas present, and we're
finishing with the hope ofChristmas future.
And so we're trying to use thatas a springboard to say God's
kept his promises, OldTestament, the arrival of Jesus
brings joy and celebration, butit actually points to the
future, the future as in hisdeath and resurrection.
(30:56):
But our future, he's coming backagain.
The first Christmas says there'sanother arrival of Jesus.
Are you ready for that one?
Um, and so that's where the uhthe idea of Jesus Christ Jesus
came into the world to savesinners.
Um, and Philippians 2, in termsof there will be a day when we
will see him and celebrate uhhis arrival, but that's the real
arrival of Jesus when he comes.
(31:18):
So looking forward to thefuture.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Andrew Barry, passage instruction.
I'll just give you one of them.
The Blue Christmas one is isgonna be um it's about Simeon
and and uh speaking to Mary, anda sword has pierced her heart,
and and yet uh there'll be greatjoy in the midst of that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Yeah.
Passage instruction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
I'm using the number six priestly blessing, how the
Lord would turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
And that's what the angelsannounce peace, and how it's
gonna be God turning his facetowards us in Jesus.
But this is a story I'm gonnaland on, and anyone can borrow
if they want.
I say for a long time I'll I hadan iPhone, my wife had an
Android, and as you know, theydon't talk to each other.
(31:57):
So I finally bought her aniPhone and I thought, what have
I done?
Because now she can do the findmy iPhone feature.
Find my iPhone because she knowswhere I am.
I'm not sure I want that.
And every every now and then abubble pops up on my phone
saying, Your wife is trying tofind you.
Do you accept?
And my finger hovers over thatbutton.
Do I, a button, do I, do I optin to accept?
(32:19):
And that's the message ofChristmas.
Jesus has come, he's found us,but we have to opt into that
blessing.
Do we accept?
SPEAKER_03 (32:26):
Thanks very much for coming in.
My guests on The Pastor's Heart,Adrian Russell, Senior Minister
of North Mead Anglican Church.
Sam Chan, he's an evangelistwith City Bible Forum, and
Andrew Barry from Menai Churchin Sydney South.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We will look forward.
Well, actually, we've got acouple of replay episodes over
the summer, and we'll be backwith you on the 6th of January.
Thanks for joining us on ThePastor's Heart in 2025.
Hey, happy Christmas from us at the Pastors Heart.
It is Dominic Steele, and looktoday, last-minute Christmas
talk suggestions.
I'm imagining that for you likeme, uh, this run-up to Christmas
has been super busy, and uh soI've phoned a friend to help me
with the Christmas talkpreparation.
Well, I've phoned three friendsto help me, and they're here
Andrew Barry, senior minister ofMenai Church to the south of
(01:00):
Sydney, Ozzy Evangelist with theCity Bible Forum, Sam Chan, and
Adrian Russell from NorthmeadAnglican Church.
And uh look, just toacknowledge, this is our last
Pastor's Heart episode for 2025before we take a couple of week
break.
Um, and uh let's start with thePastor's Heart and Sam Chan,
you're the best dressed.
(01:20):
Um no one else got the memo.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
I feel like there's no person.
This is fancy dress, but you cantell anyone else.
So I'm the doofers that turn upin fancy dress.
SPEAKER_03 (01:32):
I think you look great.
I think you look wonderful too,Dominic.
Where's your that's right?
Look, um uh Sam, what's yourpast as you sit down for
Christmas?
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
It's Christmas, but this year I've been the best
prepared ever.
I got all my Christmas shoppingdone on Black Friday.
I had an Excel spreadsheet outlike every Asian wood, and I had
all the names, all the presents,and where to get the stuff from.
SPEAKER_03 (02:00):
See, Andrew Barry, that's what you should have
done.
He's staying quiet.
Um, keep coming.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Yep, yep.
And so then I got into sermonprep.
I know maybe I pulled that cardout way too early, but this
month was challenging because Ineeded a gingerbread housemaking
event talk.
Then I needed an under 10-minuteuh talk for Carols and for my
City Bible Forum workplaceswhere I speak in workplaces
(02:28):
about Christmas, and finally the20, 30 minute talk for Christmas
Day at church.
SPEAKER_03 (02:33):
Um, and what's your heart as you come to do this?
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Oh, there's always that mixed feeling of dread,
like it's Christmas again.
How do I come up with somethingfresh to say?
But also just the excitementlike, hey, this is what it's all
about, Christmas.
Um, and heaps of people invitefriends and family who don't
normally go to church, and thisis a great chance now to think
how can I win hearts and mindsover to Jesus?
(03:00):
Dread and excitement, AdrianRussell.
SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
Well, I think that that's everyone's experience at
Christmas, isn't it?
It's super stressful andintense, and yet it's a time of
joy and wonder and amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
As a preacher, dread and excitement.
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Yeah, I think that's I feel the same thing in terms
of trying to figure out how doyou do honour to this really
significant moment that God cameinto the world.
Um, the challenge I'm alwaysfacing is I reckon Christmas is
like the first episode of aseason, it's like the first act
of a movie, in that sometimeswe're thinking about what it
achieves rather than what itleads to.
(03:32):
So as I'm trying to thinkthrough Christmas, I'm trying to
think, how do I connect it tothe cross?
How do I connect it to what'snext?
And I feel like if if peopleleave our church thinking that
was a great story, then wehaven't really told the story
right.
It's it's where it heads to.
So I'm feeling that pressure ofthe joy, the fun, the wonder of
angels and shepherds, but whereit leads to, that the grown
(03:54):
Jesus lives for us, dies for us,rises for us.
So feeling how to do thatproperly.
SPEAKER_03 (03:59):
How do you think about what's your aim, Andrew
Barry, in a Christmas talk?
What are you what are youshooting for?
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I think I often think about probably two groups
of people.
I think of um, I think peoplewho it's their first Christmas
and people who it's their lastChristmas.
And I think the people withfirst Christmas, I actually the
thing that gets me the mostexcited is because I think
Christmas is a moment.
I think that people sort oftrace their life cycles by how
many Christmases left and howmany Christmases they've had.
(04:25):
And I love there might be like20 people across the building on
the weekend who've becomeChristians that year.
And I think this is your firstChristmas as a Christian, or
people who have becomeChristians, Christians at that
time.
I I love people becomingchildren of God at Christmas,
but but also the idea thatpeople might have become
Christians sometime.
This is their first timeactually experiencing it as a
(04:47):
Christian.
But then on the other side, I dothink of the last Christmas.
I I think that and I think it'simportant to think about this.
There are some people in theroom who it's their last
Christmas before they go, andsome people know that.
And I just so thankful that theyturn up and um the effort they
make to be there.
And and I just think there'ssomething really precious about
being able to give the lastChristmas talk to someone as
(05:08):
well as the first.
SPEAKER_03 (05:10):
What's your aim, Sam, as you think about
Christmas morning?
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
Yeah, so my primary aim is because I work for City
Bible Forum, I'm invited tospeak in workplaces to a crowd
of uh it's a mix betweenbelievers and non-believers.
I found and so just as anexample, in the last two weeks,
I've spoken at Westpac,Commonwealth Bank, Cochlear,
Department of Justice, Deloitte,and I've got KPMG coming up.
(05:34):
I actually asked the workerswho've invited me, what are you
wanting me to tell the friendsthat you've brought along?
Like, what is the pain point fora worker coming to a Christmas
party at the end of the year?
And I'm also thinking when Ispeak at Christmas Day, heaps of
the friends and family arecoming to keep their parents
happy.
You know, they're they're justI'll come once a year to church,
(05:58):
not because I believe in it, notbecause I enjoy it, but just to
make mum and dad happy.
SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
Okay.
So what do the workers tell youthey want you to do?
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
Yeah, I think they say the pain point for a worker
is I can't believe one year hasgone by.
How is it Christmas already?
It feels like it was justyesterday we had a Christmas
party.
So I think the pain point is oneyear has gone by, but my life is
not any better before because ofthat.
And does that mean in one year'stime I'll still be living the
(06:30):
same life?
Will I be happy if I'm the sameperson I am next year?
What are you aiming for, Andrew?
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
Well, I'm aiming to express in lots of uh clear,
upfront spoken ways, but alsojust lots of intangible ways,
the joy and the community thatrelationship with God creates.
So you want it to be a happytime.
So that really just flows outof.
You know God, you know his love,you know he cares, you know he
came near to us and he wants us.
(06:59):
And so to express that clearlyin the talks, but also just in
the whole vibe of theenvironment.
So people walk in the door.
Um, we had someone at our carolsthe other night uh who came from
a different country 15 yearsago, and they said, this is a
part of Australia I've neverseen before.
Um, this community, this joy,this celebration.
And to be able to express thatin intangible ways, just the
(07:22):
vibe of being together.
So I want people to see not justthis is the message of
Christianity, but this is whateffect it has on people.
We love to be together acrossgenerations and we love to
celebrate.
Jesus is awesome.
So that's kind of the big aim, Ithink.
SPEAKER_03 (07:38):
Can I just say, listening to you three there, it
felt like you're all giving methe distinction level answer.
If I was to say what the pastlevel answer was, I think I'd
say I'm looking for repentanceand faith.
And so therefore I would say Iwant to speak of Jesus as Lord
and Savior.
You know, and if there's anytalk that I want to get that
(07:58):
right, Lord and Savior with theapplicant.
He's Lord, therefore you shouldrepent.
He's saviour, therefore youshould trust.
You know, if there's any talk Iwant to get that right, pray
that I might proclaim it clearlyas I should.
Um, it's Christmas Day, isn'tit?
But that's my pass level.
Whereas when you were speaking,then you were talking
distinction level, I think.
Isn't that true?
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
Well, you want us to aim for high distinctions.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
Well, I want you to do better.
Well, I want you to get past,but then I want you to get
distinction.
I mean, I'm just shooting for apass, but no, I no, I want to
get distinction as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
In one sense, we're facing the challenge of is
Christmas a time when people aremore open to hearing about Jesus
and the things of the Bible?
There's a way that that isanswered, the answer is yes.
But is Christmas a time whenpeople are so distracted by a
bunch of stuff?
Actually, not much of the realmessage of the gospel gets
through to them.
(08:48):
So I've I feel that tension inthat what we want to preach
first and foremost is the deathand resurrection of Jesus, that
he came to save us from sin.
SPEAKER_03 (08:57):
That's the Lord and Savior point.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
That Jesus is the King forever because he lived
and died and rose again and herescues us from sin.
But what I find at Christmas isone of the challenges is the
people are so like the Christmasstory, they aren't particularly
open to where it goes.
So, how do I keep weaving thatin?
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
So, how do we do it, Sam?
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Yeah, so how do we on-ramp them?
Well, there are many on-ramps,but at Christmas, one of the
easiest ones at Christmas for meis that the angel tells Joseph
to name him Jesus.
Why?
Because it means he will savehis people from their sins.
So, right from the start, yougot the word sin there.
So, this is the problem Jesuscomes to address.
(09:39):
So then we can say the reasonwhy Jesus comes is not this, not
this, not this.
And that means our primary need,even though it feels that way,
is not more holidays, owningmore stuff, living longer.
Our primary need is we needsomeone to save us from our
sins.
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
How do you do?
I mean, this is kind of theperennial question.
Yeah.
I'm always looking for a freshway in this kind of talk to
explain sin.
So help give let's go for anidea from each of you.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
I I I think the best Christmas talk I heard was about
30 years ago, and I haven'tforgotten it.
And I won't mention who preachedit because I don't want to um
yeah to show favouritism, eventhough he was the Archbishop of
Sydney and the former uh head ofMoore College.
But um uh it was about it wasusing the the illustration of
credit cards and how everyoneracks up massive credit card
(10:33):
debt.
And I I it was just a reallylong introduction, and it was
really we felt the weight of theproblem, and then felt the
weight of the problem of humansin being just like that, that
our credit card debt before Godwas so extraordinary.
Uh and then and then it was itwas from 2 Corinthians, you
know, he who was rich beyond allsplendor, yet for our sake
became poor, that by through hispower he might we might become
(10:54):
rich.
And I think there was the greatexchange there.
I I have not forgotten that.
You know, that was one of those,yes, it was the gospel like
every other time, but it wastold so well that for 30 years
it stuck in my head, and so Ithink sometimes you've got to
think of ways like that.
You can't always most most ofthe most of the sermons we we we
(11:14):
give will be I hate to say it,forgotten in a week, but
sometimes something like thatwill stick.
SPEAKER_03 (11:21):
Adrian, um sin illustrated well in a Christ
Christmas talk.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah, I think we're we are looking for the easy way
to describe sin, but the realityis it's confronting and people
will not want us to talk aboutit.
So we just have to go there.
Wrongdoing, worthy of uhjudgment.
Uh, I think in many ways, uh,the sense that we are um
disconnected from God and thefact that uh we we can't have
(11:48):
that relationship that we crave.
And what's interesting is thatuh Christmas, I think, like a
lot of things in life, bringsout the best and the worst of
humanity.
And so if you said to someone,imagine if it was Christmas
every day, um, there'd beelements of, oh, how good would
that be?
Don't have to go to work.
And but imagine if it wasChristmas every day.
Wow.
(12:08):
The tension, the fights, thestress, the selfishness, the
pain, the grief, all that kindof stuff.
So I think in one sense,Christmas does open up.
There's more going on than thatsuperficial tinsel-covered life.
People are really hurting, andto kind of indicate that that is
disconnection from God becauseof defiance of God, um, uh, as a
(12:29):
way of trying to get to get inon that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:31):
What have you done this?
You've been doing every five orsix Christmas talks.
What are you doing this?
SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
This year I went with let's make fun of men,
because men hate asking forhelp.
So it's humbling to be told Ineed help, but it's insulting to
be told I need to be saved.
So this is a very insultingmessage.
And then I said, one way ofexplaining sin is it's a chicken
and egg problem.
You know, from a chicken comesan egg, but from an egg comes a
(12:56):
chicken.
So which comes first?
So we are broken in nature, butbecause we're broken in nature,
we break things.
And one of those things are thelaws that God has programmed
into the universe.
And because we keep breaking hislaws, we end up more broken.
So at Christmas, Jesus becomesone of us, the incarnation, so
(13:18):
we can have a new nature, butone day he's going to die on a
cross to give us a brand newstart where we're innocent.
So I actually was able to juggleboth the incarnation and the
atonement by using the chickenand egg analogy for brokenness
and breaking things.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Hey, how would you change or not change your
Christmas sermon this year,given the massacre this week in
uh in Bond?
I mean, I was talking to theArchbishop of Sydney uh earlier
in the week, and uh he was here,and we I was just walking out
with him, and I said, Oh, whatdo you got to do?
What's coming up?
(13:56):
And he said, Oh, I've got tospeak at another couple of carol
services, and I'm gonna have tochange my talk because of the
massacre.
But um, so he's clearly changinghis talk.
What are you thinking aboutthat, Henry?
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
Yeah, look, I think um I think we need to.
I mean, Christ comes into theworld to save sinners and he
comes in the darkness, and Ithink the light comes in the
darkness.
So massacres, hardship.
In fact, when Christ was born,there was a master.
There was a massacre, yeah.
And so I he comes into thesemoments.
I think we need to show that allevery year at Christmas, but
(14:31):
particularly this year.
I think one other trend I'veseen, Dominic, is a lot of
ministers love the incarnationof Jesus and their preaching,
but not the particularity ofJesus being born a Jew.
And I think there's been amodern I think it's
anti-Semitism from preachers toback away from Jesus being
Jewish, the king of Israel, etc.
(14:52):
etc.
I think this year we need toembrace and step forward and say
he is the king of the Jews, he'sthe lion of the tribe of Judah,
he's still Jewish.
And um, and uh I think that'ssuper important.
And I think we need to beholding that out, um, which
which is offensive to everyonein a way, but it's also the
saving gospel.
And I think I think it'sactually one of the the the
(15:14):
great news of he's not justdidn't just come as the
everyman, he came as theparticular, and he came as the
particular in the Jewish nation.
Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
And he came to bring peace uh between us and God and
between Jew and Gentile.
Yep.
So the only peace we have is inJesus Christ.
SPEAKER_03 (15:33):
So are you going to change your talk to what we're
doing?
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
I think you definitely have to mention it
and say we need Christmas nowmore than ever.
Uh, but also to reveal that thisis not a new thing.
This has been happening throughthe world in time for forever.
And so to be reminded of it'sraw and fresh right now, but
Jesus is the solution to this.
Jesus, there is a before and anafter when Jesus comes and when
(15:56):
He his effect has an impact onpeople's lives, uh, it
completely transforms the waythey relate to people, the way
they relate to people who aredifferent to them.
So to talk about thattransformation with our
relationship with God and eachother, we got to mention it, but
this is it's real peace.
Peace isn't just a warm andfuzzy feeling.
Peace is God is no longer at warwith us, therefore we are united
(16:17):
together.
Um, and so I I think definitelywe need to mention it uh and
talk about it, but not lose oursense of joy and celebration.
It's interesting that theangels, when they come to Joseph
and Mary and the shepherds, thefirst thing they say, don't be
afraid.
Because when a messenger fromheaven comes, the right instinct
is this is scary.
(16:38):
What's God gonna do?
What he's gonna do is save youand love you and forgive you.
So what about you, Sam, changingthe talk?
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, it's it gives you a much more definite,
concrete landing point or entrypoint because we preach
Christmas as light, peace, hope,and up until now they've been
these very fuzzy abstract nouns.
But now we realise no, thisexists because there is such a
thing as darkness, pain, hurt,hate, injustice, and suffering.
That's why we preach light,hope, and peace.
(17:07):
And I guess even if we don'tmention it directly in our talk,
because sometimes you've onlybeen given like three minutes or
five minutes, the MC could makereference to it.
Or the person introducing thecarol will say, Hey, we're gonna
sing about light.
That's because this is a worldof darkness.
Maybe this is a good time tohave that wake-up call that, you
know, the 20th century ended upon so much optimism.
It was like, hey, we just needbetter government, better
(17:29):
education, better medicine, andthe juggernaut of progress is
just going to keep on going.
But this is the wake-up callthat no, no, those things are
good, but they're not enough.
You know, we we do need asupernatural savior to intervene
into our world.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
I wonder in the in the helplessness people feel in
these moments, it's a chance tosay, well, God does the
impossible.
Uh, a virgin gives birth to ason.
Um, the creator becomes part ofcreation and he removes the
barriers and brings love andunity where there was hostility
and violence.
(18:05):
So Christmas is about God doingthe impossible, and we can we
can definitely land that intowhat's been happening.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
And also it shows the uniqueness of the Christian
worldview because atheism sayssuffering's an illusion, it's a
construct.
Eastern religions say thesolution is removal from
suffering.
Yeah.
But we have a God who came downand suffers with us.
Joined in.
SPEAKER_03 (18:28):
I mean, in a sense, I think I find it easier to do
the talk when we know there'spain.
In that what I'm meaning is um,I mean, this is not the first
time we've had a Christmas talkin a difficult season.
Um I remember speaking Christmasin a time of war, Christmas in a
time of bushfires.
Do you know the there've beenmoments when there's been a
disaster going on aroundChristmas before this time, and
(18:52):
when we can speak into that painmoment, the gospel's at its
strength, do you know?
Yeah.
Um talking of speaking ofChristmas into pain, you've been
running Blue Christmas for awhile.
Um talk to us about how youconstruct the talk there
compared to what you might do onuh on if you like one of the
(19:14):
more fun days, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
And what is Blue Christmas for those?
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Well we do Blue Christmas, people call it many
things, but um a a chance forpeople to reflect.
It's more of a reflectiveservice where people who've
maybe had a harder year orthings gone wrong.
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
So you're doing silent night, not joy to the
world.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Yeah, maybe.
Uh it's it's basically we we wetalk about it as we're singing
the sing we're still praisingGod, but we're praising God in a
minor key.
And I I think we're more likeSimeon and Anna waiting for the
consolation of Jerusalem, andmaybe less like the angels
singing praise to God.
And and I think uh what we do islook, the talk can be can be not
(19:52):
that different, but it can butjust acknowledging the pain in
the room and and that and thatChrist comes for it, and not
just the pain in the world.
I think I I actually think ourworlds have a lot of pain
without the news world, and andI think there's people who've
lost someone, there's peoplewho've I know people who come
into our blue Christmas who lostsomeone years ago, and they've
only this year been ready tocome to one of these kind of
(20:15):
services.
Um we we go low tech, no noannouncements, and at the end of
the service we say So when yousay low tech, do you mean
acoustic guitar or what do youmean?
We just mean like a single wewell, we just have a piano and
singer, but we have no nothing.
On the screens, um, justeverything handouts.
Try as much as possible to haveum and but at the end of the
(20:37):
service, we do something that'svery different.
We we don't say please stayaround afterwards, we actually
say please please leave quietly.
And and then if you want tostay, someone will come and pray
with you.
And we've found that half, maybeprobably more than half people
stay behind and someone prayswith them.
And and and even though they'renot as big as our other
services, I I think there'ssignificant ministry that can
(20:58):
happen.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
As you've thought about, I mean you've been
thinking about it for a while,where in the month of December
do you run it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
We do it about a week before Christmas.
But it really depends whereChristmas falls.
Um, every minister, I don't knowabout you, Dominic.
I always look every year I thinkwhere's Christmas falling this
year?
SPEAKER_03 (21:16):
I think about times of Christmas Eve service, always
but but we try to do it about aweek before.
SPEAKER_01 (21:21):
I mean, basically, um it also does work for people
who go on holidays.
So we get a few people who alsojust want to come and join as a
church.
SPEAKER_03 (21:31):
How do you think about scheduling in December,
Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Yeah, we do try and work backwards in terms of
making sure that the way thedays work and the the the events
that we run fit in.
Um we we actually have had alittle three-week Christmas
series in the lead up toChristmas because sometimes we
feel like you're not alwayspaying full attention at Carol's
and in the Christmas Eve.
So just an opportunity to thinkJesus coming is um really
(21:56):
significant in the lead up tothat.
But there doesn't seem to be anyway around the fact that
December is ridiculouslyintensely busy.
And every year I think we're notdoing it like that next time.
Um, and it happens again.
You just have to do it, I think.
SPEAKER_03 (22:11):
Sam, let's come back to the point you made earlier
about um the different talks thegingerbread talk, the um the
city worker talk, the ChristmasDay talk.
Um, help.
I mean, did you do the sameBible passage for all of them?
Help me as you've thought I'mgonna put this in, not put this
in, do this for the differentones.
SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
Oh, yeah.
So it is a creative process, andyou don't know where you're
gonna end up, but you do end upsomewhere.
So the gingerbread housemakingevent, the vast majority of
people invited don't normally goto church.
SPEAKER_03 (22:42):
And they've come for gingerbread, not to hear sex.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
So it's the worst bait and switch.
And I think Christians forgetthat.
And in fact, we maybe we cantalk way more about this, even
how caras was run.
So the stay on gingerbread.
Yeah, the people invited aren'texpecting a monologue.
Christians are used tomonologues, and we're used to
20-minute monologues.
A non-church people is notexpecting a monologue.
(23:06):
And if it's a monologue, it's ausual one from the mayor that
says, Hey, thank you all forcoming, stay safe, see you next
year.
That's what they think you'regonna do, like a three-sentence
thing.
So it's the all- So what did youdo?
I'm all the years.
It was only it was three to fiveminutes, super quick.
But you've got to acknowledgethe gingerbread house.
I began with a funny story aboutmy wife and I went to a marriage
(23:27):
seminar, and the opening projectwas we had to make a house from
newspaper, and you had to decidedo I make the tallest,
strongest, most beautiful?
And my wife and I hadconflicting aims, and we hadn't
communicated that to each other.
So that was a metaphor for ourmarriage.
But I said, that's tonight whatwe're gonna do.
We're trying to work out what doI do with my house?
Do I want the tallest,strongest, or most beautiful
(23:48):
one?
I said, it's a metaphor forlife.
Like, do you want to be thetallest, strongest, most
beautiful person in the room orhow you want your children to
grow up?
Because that's what survival ofthe fittest is.
If there's no God, you do haveto be the strongest and tallest
and fittest.
And even if there's a God, mostreligions say you got to climb
that ladder up to God.
But the message of Christmas isno, Jesus came down the ladder
(24:10):
for you.
And what makes you special toGod is not whether you're tall,
beautiful, or strong, but areyou his?
Do you belong to him in Jesus?
And in front of you, you out ofyour house is the most precious
house out of everyone's in theroom because it's your house.
And that's the message ofChristmas.
You can be God's, and and that'swhere you find value and
(24:33):
validation.
SPEAKER_03 (24:34):
I really like that.
Thank you.
I hope none of our church arelistening to this for next
year's ginger.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
All of my church listens to this topic,
especially when you start thetalk with you and your wife went
to a marriage seminar and uh hadto make a house out of paper.
Yeah, do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
I was speaking at City Bible Forum once, and I I
had to go to Melbourne, and so Ihad to give Peter Caldwell, who
is the director of my notes, andhe said, um, he he stood up in
front of the 200 people there atCity Bible Forum and he said um
now Dominic's away this week,and uh, but he sent me his notes
through to speak from.
So um, I'll just do that.
And he said, I was lying in bedwith Kathy.
(25:17):
Of course, Peter's wife isBettina.
My wife is Kathy.
Sorry, that didn't happen.
It was a good moment.
Um, I don't know where we weregingerbread house.
We're now on to the next one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Oh, yeah, so then the the 10-minute talk to
workers, and usually carols,open air, so no slides.
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
Tell me about carols and open air, because we've you
do it, we never have, because Ijust think it's too hard.
SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
It is way too hard.
You fight against theenvironment, but you know, so I
think at the end you're alwaysthinking, okay, there were a
hundred things that didn't gowell, but there were ten things
that did go well, and maybe it'sworth it for the sake of the ten
things that did go well, butit's so hard.
I say it's like you're you'repreaching to free-range chickens
because they don't have to sitthere, they don't have to be
(26:11):
there, and they weren'texpecting the monologue.
SPEAKER_03 (26:14):
So somehow I mean, yeah, you're a very good
communicator, and so I could seethat you could hold a crowd in
that stand-up moment, whereas Idon't think I can hold the crowd
in that stand-up moment.
Do you know how do you do it?
Well, you can't put you foundit.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Um actually this year one of my sisters did it,
and I thought it was the Ithought it was the best.
SPEAKER_03 (26:36):
It was better.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
It was the much better than when I've done it.
And and what he did was I thinkyou with a it's you've got to
realize that you don't havepeople at church.
You you you instantaneously havean regular week at church, 60%,
70%, I don't know.
Oh yeah, but you have people aresitting there.
You probably have 10% of peoplewho are there already.
And uh we had you know, we had asuper hot day, thousands or
(26:59):
something people.
This guy, um uh my assistantminister started his talk with
with someone winning a prize,and they and he basically
smashed a uh big watermelon infront of the crowd, and and
inside was hidden the prize, andthen he started the talk.
Now, that was brilliant becauseif you don't do something like
(27:20):
that, you don't get peoplelistening to you.
SPEAKER_03 (27:23):
But they never teach you that in New Testament one.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
No, but what do you do after the watermelon?
SPEAKER_03 (27:32):
More watermelons.
What did he what happened next?
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
It was it was a it was a good it was a good clear
talk.
No, I actually think I think thebiggest, the hardest thing, we
know what to say, but we don'tknow how to get them at the
beginning sometimes.
And I think he just got them atthe beginning, you know.
Uh it's um it was short, sharp,uh a great message, but I I
don't think I I I I think it'sit's it's probably the hardest
(27:57):
environment to to preach in, butI just learned from from him
that you need a hook.
SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
I had I mean you've he's got a hook of a watermelon,
you've got a hook of a marriagecounseling.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
Yeah, so I do a watermelon, but it's even harder
because he'd come in with afunny story, but again, they're
still thinking, why is hetalking about that?
They they actually they weren'tprepared for that.
I think that's hard.
I just had a Byrd communityevent in a park.
It was a Burwood communitycarols.
This was not carols, so I'vedone a few carols, yeah, but
this was a separate event put onby Byrd Council.
(28:33):
So the mayor who has a free Soyou've got a wonky platform that
you're wonky platform, but theyengineered everything to make it
work.
And I so they got all the foodvans lined up to make it feel
like an amphitheater rather thanan open park.
Uh the mayor was on board, Ithink that was a big one.
He gave the church the mostprominent store, and it's called
(28:53):
the Burwood Church Community,and everyone's involved the
Anglicans, the Baptists, theSalvation Army, multiple
churches involved.
If I listen, I'm still gonnaleave one out.
Um and I think what made it workis it wasn't a Carol's night.
See, with Carols, people comeexpecting to sing, and they
think, well, why is a guytalking?
But it was a it was like aschool concert night.
(29:16):
There were people dancing, and Iget it.
You you paid attention while mykids dance, I'll pay attention
while you give your five-minutemonologue on behalf of the
churches.
But I did have to competeagainst Santa Claus in the
corner, a guy making bubblesover here.
Okay, so you guys are six footstill walking through the crowd
while I'm giving a talk.
(29:36):
So you you didn't.
And the SES let off their sidesas well.
I think you've just got to havelittle short, sharp.
Like if you watch, I know it'sanathema to say, but watch
stand-up comedians, they have apower line every third or fourth
sentence.
So you gotta speak in modules,make sure you land on a point
every third or fourth line.
(29:58):
How did you do it?
Well, that's how I did it.
Yeah.
I just said, hey, the worsttime, worst rugby game I had was
when I forgot my boots.
Something was missing.
My wife's worst banana bread waswhen she left out the baking
powder.
Something was missing.
Michael Jordan came out ofretirement three times.
Something was missing.
What's missing in your life?
(30:18):
I'm gonna tell you what it is.
Christmas gives it to you, butthen you don't answer the
question.
Then you launch off onto likefour or five other
illustrations, land on a verse,and end with the Christmas
story.
SPEAKER_03 (30:29):
Okay, I'm just gonna quickly say, what's your plan
for this Christmas Day passagestructure, Adrian?
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
We we've in our series, we've done the peace of
Christmas past, the joy ofChristmas present, and we're
finishing with the hope ofChristmas future.
And so we're trying to use thatas a springboard to say God's
kept his promises, OldTestament, the arrival of Jesus
brings joy and celebration, butit actually points to the
future, the future as in hisdeath and resurrection.
(30:56):
But our future, he's coming backagain.
The first Christmas says there'sanother arrival of Jesus.
Are you ready for that one?
Um, and so that's where the uhthe idea of Jesus Christ Jesus
came into the world to savesinners.
Um, and Philippians 2, in termsof there will be a day when we
will see him and celebrate uhhis arrival, but that's the real
arrival of Jesus when he comes.
(31:18):
So looking forward to thefuture.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Andrew Barry, passage instruction.
I'll just give you one of them.
The Blue Christmas one is isgonna be um it's about Simeon
and and uh speaking to Mary, anda sword has pierced her heart,
and and yet uh there'll be greatjoy in the midst of that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Yeah.
Passage instruction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
I'm using the number six priestly blessing, how the
Lord would turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
And that's what the angelsannounce peace, and how it's
gonna be God turning his facetowards us in Jesus.
But this is a story I'm gonnaland on, and anyone can borrow
if they want.
I say for a long time I'll I hadan iPhone, my wife had an
Android, and as you know, theydon't talk to each other.
(31:57):
So I finally bought her aniPhone and I thought, what have
I done?
Because now she can do the findmy iPhone feature.
Find my iPhone because she knowswhere I am.
I'm not sure I want that.
And every every now and then abubble pops up on my phone
saying, Your wife is trying tofind you.
Do you accept?
And my finger hovers over thatbutton.
Do I, a button, do I, do I optin to accept?
(32:19):
And that's the message ofChristmas.
Jesus has come, he's found us,but we have to opt into that
blessing.
Do we accept?
SPEAKER_03 (32:26):
Thanks very much for coming in.
My guests on The Pastor's Heart,Adrian Russell, Senior Minister
of North Mead Anglican Church.
Sam Chan, he's an evangelistwith City Bible Forum, and
Andrew Barry from Menai Churchin Sydney South.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We will look forward.
Well, actually, we've got acouple of replay episodes over
the summer, and we'll be backwith you on the 6th of January.
Thanks for joining us on ThePastor's Heart in 2025.
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