The average 11-year-old spends 4.5 hours daily on non-school screens. By 15, 70% of boys regularly view pornography. This isn't harmless fun—it's rewiring young brains during critical development.
The addictive nature of social media, the mental health impact on teens, distorted identity and comparison, the way the attention economy undermines discipleship.
Parents (and pastors) so often feel out of their depth.
Marshall Ballantine-Jones created the Digihelp school curriculum addressing sexualised media, and the Resist Recovery Program.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and
today, pastors helping parentstalk to teens about social media
, the internet and pornography.
There is the addictive nature ofsocial media, the mental health
impact on teens, distortedidentity and comparison, and the
way the attention economy teensdistorted identity and
comparison and the way theattention economy undermines
(00:29):
discipleship and parents sooften feeling out of their depth
.
Our youth leaders here asked mea month or so to run a seminar
for parents on these topics andwe lined up the seminar, set a
date, publicised it and then theAdolescent series came out on
Netflix and that has changed theconversation again.
But to guide me on how toprepare the seminar for our
(00:50):
church and hopefully to guideyou on a seminar at your church,
we have MarshallValentine-Jones with us.
He created the DigiHelp SchoolCurriculum Program addressing
sexualised media and also theResist Recovery program.
You can see that atresistprogramorg.
Now, marshall, let's start withthis adolescent series that has
(01:13):
made such a splash on Netflixand it's become, I mean really
all the rage amongst theeducators and is amongst the
educators and is raising reallyalarming questions about
parental neglect.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, it's amazing how volatile the reaction has
been in the media, amongstschools, amongst parent groups,
amongst community leaders thatan otherwise provocative but
interesting story is socaptivating.
It's gripped, our society'sthinking it's gripped, and part
of it is.
It's putting a very clearchallenge out to carers of
(01:53):
children, parents and schoolleaders about the risks their
children are posed by theinternet and particularly to
what extent the parent andleadership neglect may
contribute to the worst outcomesthat those risks pose.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
A boy does something really bad because of the
influence of the internet.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So yeah, without being a party pooper and
spoiling it for those whohaven't seen it, because people
should see it if they're aparent the premise is a boy's
been accused of murder of a peerand he comes from a very
ordinary family and when theyexamine him it almost seems
irrational that this couldhappen.
(02:36):
But they dig deeper and theystart to see that he's been
influenced by various things,including the internet, some of
the incel culture, andrew Tateand others, and they're
wondering whether this has beena catalyst for a diabolical
crime.
And it puts the question on usas carers is the internet that
our children are exposed tocapable of taking a normal,
(02:58):
healthy and loved child andturning them into something
diabolical?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I mean there's all sorts of kind of I mean before
we actually get to somesolutions.
I'm just sort of exploringproblems or issues that are
surrounding us at the moment.
We've got the social media lawsin the social media age raised
from 13 to 16 in Australia,although not in many of the
other places where people arewatching and listening to us.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, that's right.
So some of your audience willbe familiar with Jonathan
Haidt's recent publication, theAnxious Generation, which came
out last year.
It's still a New York Timesbestseller, and it did a
remarkable job at exposing therecent research on the effects
of social media on mental health, anxiety, depression and
(03:46):
adolescent well-being, and fromit he puts forward some pretty
potent arguments for why the ageof access to social media needs
to be raised to 16.
And so, as it happens, therewas a very quick but bipartisan
decision made at our federallevel late last year to raise
(04:07):
the minimum age of access to asocial media account to 16, when
it was previously 13.
So that's the sort of currentdiscussion happening.
But, as a researcher, the firstthing that I would want to note
and I think people need tounderstand that when it was 13
as the minimum age, the averageage that someone was having a
(04:27):
social media account for thefirst time was actually 11 and a
half, and so the immediatequestion is does a law like this
actually become?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So setting the law at 16 might pull it up to 14 or
something.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, yeah, people are going to ask is this going
to make any difference?
That they're already jumping on, on average at 11 and a half.
What's the point of having aminimum age?
How do you enforce it?
Well, park that to the side,because I think these laws are
really targeted at the big techcompanies as opposed to child
behavior, but they do givepermission for schools and for
parents to actually say no andgo against the tide of pressure
(05:05):
that the adolescent culture putson them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You just alluded to big tech and I mean I think
we're talking predatorialmethods through algorithms.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Oh, yeah, big tech.
You know the big ones areFacebook, instagram, same
company, even YouTube, TikTok,snapchat.
They are all aggressively andvigorously trying to harvest our
children's attention andloyalty, and they do it very
cleverly.
They do it through identifyingtheir profiles and then
(05:37):
targeting them with content thatwill be not just interesting to
them but also be captivating,even displacing to them.
And they use the dopamine cycle, with the very basic technology
of the thumb scroll, with thereels, to just keep them hooked
on getting content, whicheventually takes them down a
(05:59):
spiral of dependency.
And these big tech companies arein ruthless competition with
each other for profits, right?
So they're working very hard tonot just win the children over,
but to win them against thecompetition and to capture them
for themselves.
And so what happens is a kid at11, 12, sometimes younger gets
their phone from mom or gets theiPad, gets the account and big
(06:19):
tech immediately startsthrusting content at them.
It's going to suck them intothis addictive cycle, and this
is at a time in their life wherethey're just about to embark
upon massive neurological changeas they prepare for adulthood.
And what this intrusiveactivity from big tech does is
it?
Basically?
It reshapes their wiring oftheir brain and stunts, distorts
(06:44):
and eventually corrupts theirnot just thinking, but their
feelings and then theirbehaviours.
And we have this massiveworldwide catastrophe at the
present of mental healthdisorders amongst young people
which we've never seen before,and big tech has been a massive
contributor to that problem.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So what's your recommendation to Christian
parents?
Well, I think what do you wantto say to me as I try to educate
Christian parents at thisseminar?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, Well, I think the first thing we need to call
out what's going on.
We need to understand just howprevalent not only the access is
to social media, to other formsof digital entertainment like
computer gaming and so forth,and pornography as well.
I mean, these are so prevalentthat basically, what they're
doing is they're washing overour kids on vast numbers.
(07:33):
We've got to, we've got toexplain that and what harm that
does, so that parents areinformed that they don't just
realize that this is a benignissue.
It's just a bit of harmless fun, it's just good distraction, it
doesn't hurt me as much, saysthe parents.
No, this is kids at their mostformidable age of change, and so
, yeah, we need to call out thedamage and then we need to start
(07:54):
giving some very basic butclear instructions about
limiting access.
So limiting access is the firstthing we want to really
instruct parents to do.
Kids don't need a smartphone at11.
If they need a phone to get incontact because they missed the
bus after school, well, okay,we'll get them a dumb phone, but
we don't need a smartphone, andso we certainly want to hold
(08:18):
back the frequency of exposureto these things.
Then, really, we want to startlooking at the culture of that
family, because it's not just afamily of rules and restrictions
.
That's very important.
That does make a difference.
But we also want parents whoconverse with their children,
talk with them, teach them,educate them, share worldviews
(08:39):
with them, understand thechild's worldview and model.
Parents need to.
They need to need to modeltheir tech habits.
I mean, it's one thing to sayno, you can't be on your phone,
no, you can't have a socialmedia account, but then you know
you're always on it yourself.
I think parents need to look attheir own behaviors, but they
also need to model good relating, because I think if there's one
helpful thing from thisadolescence series is it really
(09:04):
exposes the type of relationalharm that can happen in a cohort
of young people if you let themrun loose with the influence of
technology.
Well, kids, I know, with my work, I go around to schools and I
go out to churches.
I speak to tens of thousands ofkids a year and we ask them
what's it like for you?
And what we hear everywhere wego is that there is just rife
(09:24):
sexualized behaviors.
The girls sadly and tragicallycop a disproportionate amount of
harmful attention, primarilyfrom boys.
A lot of it's to do with theinfluence of pornography, but
all the while, in the schoolcommunities and church
communities we actually have ahigher rate of sexual harassment
.
And you know behaviours basicbehaviours of decency and
(09:47):
empathy and kindness need to berelearned by a lot of these
young kids because they've beeneducated to be dysfunctional,
educated to be harmful becauseof the online content.
So parents can model goodrelating in the way they speak
with each other, the way theylive with each other, the way
they relate through problems andso forth, and basically show
(10:08):
children a better and moreloving way to resolve their
relational challenges.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Because you surprise me.
I mean, I'm just showing myout-of-touchness here.
I had imagined that all thepublicity around the Me Too
movement of a couple of yearsago would have had an impact on
better behaviour amongst youngerpeople, but you're saying it's
(10:40):
still rife.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Well, I mean, the irony is, since the Me Too
movement, the reports that wehave amongst the experiences of
teenagers today is worse thanwhat it was before the you know,
the me too movement, and weshouldn't be surprised when we
actually what's yourinterpretation of that?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
well, because, I mean I'm surprised.
You say I shouldn't besurprised well, there's two
reasons.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
One is just the unrelenting influence of online
sexualized culture through theinternet on young people.
It just doesn't stop.
When a boy gets his phone inyear six, again, the average age
of first time exposure topornography is 11 and a half.
What he's seeing today 2025, isso extreme, so callous, um,
(11:25):
it's so harmful.
This just reinforces a way ofthinking of other people which
is um.
It overcomes the consent andthe respect messages that are
being rolled out in schools,like that.
One good thing about the me toomovement.
But it did give educators themotivation to change sex ed and
(11:50):
consent respect was one of the,I guess, spear point strategies
that they have brought in tooffset these sexualized
behaviors.
But you can't keep up at schoolwith a once a year program with
the hours a day education thatthey're getting online.
So it's a race and essentiallywho's winning is the online
(12:15):
educators, namely thepornographers and the
sexualisers.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay.
So I mean you talk about aonce-a-year program.
I mean I'm going to have aseminar for parents at our
church.
I mean I'm going to have aseminar for parents at our
church.
You say boys are having theirfirst encounter with pornography
at 11 and a half.
What would you say that weshould talk about in our seminar
(12:43):
for parents?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well, I think one of the things we want to talk about
is that you have to understandthat you're in a competition and
you need to have a culture ofeducation with your young people
, with your children.
You need to not just have thetalk or take them to a seminar
or do a study or a program, butthey need to be in a persistent
(13:07):
and consistent process ofhealthy, holistic, godly,
grace-driven, loving,other-person-centered,
human-affirming education.
Be prepared to have thoseconversations and set that tone
(13:29):
and cultivate a counterculturaland a revolutionary mindset to
how we understand each other,how we understand good sexuality
.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Now that sounds like a good practice to have.
What if I'm a parent watching?
Or what if I'm a pastorwatching?
Or if I'm a pastor aware thatprobably there's a number of
families in our church wherethey haven't got that culture at
the moment?
How do we I mean I presume youcan't do 180-degree change the
first day there's actually gotto be how would you go about
(14:04):
bringing that about?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
It's a great question .
With my parent seminars, we dospend a bit of time on this.
There's two types of parentsthat we will be addressing.
One are the new parents, whothis is all before them, and
we're encouraging them to set upthe culture well so that their
children could resist the issuesthat come to them as time goes
on.
but we're also doing recoveryfor others, and so often it is
(14:28):
parents of teenagers, and thekids have had their phone for
three years, four years already,and now they're for the first
time realising oh my goodness,this is actually really bad.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I mean we do have a generation who got
Facebook or Instagram at 13 andnow Other parents.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, well, yeah.
So what we're saying is thatwith with these situations,
first and foremost, you need towork out your strategy and you
need to work what, what yourgoals are.
What will be the standard thatI want moving forward?
And with your spouse, um, ifyou're in that situation, I know
that there are single parentsout there.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
But yeah, I'm just thinking what about when you've
got a divorced couple and mumand dad disagree on this issue?
That's a whole other problem.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, it's not uncommon, so it's a common
problem.
I come across this a lot andit's difficult, but where you
can try to negotiate the rightoutcomes and discuss where you
can why this is important sothat you can be on the same page
, because in the end, you wantto make sure that when it comes
to having, I think, what willinvariably be a showdown with
(15:38):
the child about the change ofthe world order at home.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So it's likely to be a door slamming moment.
It can be.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But I think because no kid likes to hear hey, no,
and they also don't want to havetheir what has now become
dependent love that I'm actuallyaddicted here.
Yeah, taken away from me, itwill be displacing for them.
So people may not know this,but the average a recent study
said that the average amount oftime that an Australian child
(16:09):
spends on screens a day that'snot school-related by mid-high
school is four and a half hours.
Three years ago, the averageamount of time they spent on
social media a day was about twohours.
These numbers have gone up.
You take that away from them,you're like ripping out
something from there that's soimportant.
(16:29):
It's going to leave a gapinghole and it's going to feel
difficult.
So there's a lot more that wecan say about how to handle that
very process in them, but atleast you need to work on your
strategy.
And if you can wind it back, acouple of words of assurance and
also warning to parents.
The first, actually I'll gowith the warning first.
The way that you and your childare relating with each other,
(16:53):
as in, if it's a good qualityrelationship, if it's happy and
balanced, that's not anindicator to the amount of
difficulty or potential problemthat the online world is having
on them.
You can't predict your child'sonline effects and influences
based on your quality ofrelationship.
So that's the first thing, andstudies are showing that parents
(17:16):
persistently underestimate howmuch negative influence the
online world is having on them,including how much sex ed
they're getting from pornographymales and females.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You had a second point, then I want to jump into
pornography.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So the second point is that if you do have a
conflict with your child, aconflict doesn't reduce the
quality of the relationship thatyou have with your child and it
won't reduce their self-esteemand it won't reduce their
emotional stability.
So parents often fear, whenthey say no and they have a
World War III with Sally or Johnabout this, that the kid's
(17:47):
going to hate them and it's justnot worth going there.
Well, actually the kids don'thate you, even if there is a
fight.
They feel secure in that andthey actually realize, if you're
explaining why you're comingdown with these rules, that you
love them and it's for theirgood outcome.
And so in the immediate itwon't feel good, but later they
will reflect.
I can give a testimony myfamily, I, I was like this with
my three adult children.
(18:08):
They all say to me now Dad, wehated your rules, we hated your
restrictions, we hated thefights, but we're so glad you
did it, you see, so don't fearthe fight.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
We've had our young adult children say similar
things to us recently too.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
yeah, so it's worth it.
It won't harm the relationship,yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Say, I've got an 11-and-a-half-year-old and I
think they might have seenpornography.
How do I do that conversation,or I think their friends are
seeing it, and so how do I giveme a role play of how you might
do that conversation?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well, I mean, it will always feel uncomfortable to
have this conversation, but Ithink you just want to ask them,
sit them down, say, look, I'mnot going to judge you, but I
really want to understand whatit's like for you.
So tell me, have you seen anyof this?
Are you aware of?
If your friends have seen this,if they try to show you, how
did it make you feel?
What did you want to do?
What was your thoughts aboutdisclosing that to me?
(19:10):
Were you worried how I'd reactand start the conversation going
?
You know it's interestingParents.
Often a reaction of a goodparent who's put in principles
and processes their reaction tothe kid who discloses that
looked at porn or done somethingelse that's not right online is
(19:30):
to be angry and to feel hurt.
And that could be quite a rightand justified reaction because
you feel that they've beendeceitful or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Disrespecting women.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Disrespect all those things.
And yet what we need to realizeis it's the parent who the kid
never tells.
That's the parent who reallyneeds to be worried.
When your kid tells you thatthey've seen something, done
something, you need to pause andrealize this is actually a
moment of opportunity.
It was brave for them to say itand they really need help.
(20:06):
And I can't impress upon parentsenough how helpless the kids
are in this wild world out thereand we need to give them a
little bit of slack, a littlebit of grace.
The pornographers and thepredators and big tech are all
out there like hungry beastsafter them, and they've got
their friends and their peersand peer culture, which is so
(20:26):
powerful and potent.
And you know, should we besurprised that something
eventually got through thecracks and reached them?
No, at this point, when theytell you you've got an
opportunity and your opportunityis to now start to shepherd
them in a loving and in anunderstanding way into right
thinking, right behaviors.
And so I just be careful ofthat first reaction back,
(20:47):
because it might be the reasonthat they never come to you
again if you bite their headsoff too early and then, once
they've disclosed something toyou.
You need to start opening up theconversation more regularly
because you might need todebrief on the content that
they've seen and work throughthat, because there's some stuff
(21:09):
out there which is traumaticjust to know that it exists, let
alone see visually.
And then we need to start thehealthy conversations about how
to treat people and where aperson's identity and value is
and what God's got to say aboutgood relationships and a good
long term.
I think it's really importantparents take these chances to
paint the positive picture thepositive picture of what God has
(21:33):
planned for young people andwhat you as parents, want for
your young people, and whythat's a positive picture and
why it's worth waiting forholding back from being
different now to attain, and ifthat's, a healthy relationship
in the future, healthyfriendships and so forth, being
respected yourself and treatedas a person, not as an object.
(21:55):
These are all greatconversations which we can
instill now by laying down thevision.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What kind of culture can we, as church leaders, work
to create, both amongst thefamilies and in the youth
program that will be supportivein this space.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It's a great question .
It's a broad question.
I think, as leaders, we've gotto look at a few things.
We've got to look at whatproportion of conversation we
give to our teaching programsand into our Bible studies and
so forth, which acknowledge andengage with the pressure of
online sexualisation, becausethis is everywhere Every Netflix
(22:36):
show, every streaming show, ads, music clips and then, of
course, social media feeds andpornography.
It's everywhere, right?
So most people in ourcongregations will be bombarded
by this adults and children,families, singles how do?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
you do.
I mean for some smallerchurches and even medium-sized
churches.
There's an issue of we've gotone group of teens or two age
groups of teens and how do we doage-appropriate discussions?
What's your advice there?
Because my sense is someparents are going to be saying
(23:18):
that's too risque discussion formy year 7s to be in, and yet
it's the necessary discussionfor the year 10s and 12s to be
in.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, I think the church leaders should have a sit
down and discuss with theparents what would be an
appropriate way to approach it,because the parents need to give
consent to these type ofdiscussions.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Discussions yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I think you already gave the answer in your
question the way that weapproach different age groups
needs to be in anage-appropriate way and, yes,
when I speak to Year 7, therewill be some kids who will be
aware of the darker side of theinternet.
But speak to year seven,there'll be some kids who will
be aware of the darker side ofthe internet, but the other kids
will be potentially completelyignorant, and so we don't want
to thrust those ignorant kidsinto the dark world unnecessary
(23:59):
but I think you don't have to tobe able to talk about in
general why the online world isrisky, potentially harmful, and
we need to talk about the valuesand aspects of humanity that is
endowed in scriptures, aboutour worth as image bearers of
God, about people who areredeemed by the love of Christ,
(24:20):
how love is the driving force.
So we can talk about thosevalues and apply them in a way
which can touch in on theinternet world or in their peer
and peer relationships andonline engagements, which don't
have to go overtly down thetunnel of darkness, but it says
enough for those who are thereto know that it's a call out to
(24:42):
them to come out.
So that can be done.
But it's not just how you do it, it's how often you do it.
I think you need to againstrategically think through how
regularly you visit these topics, because if this is the raging
world that they're in, you haveto meet that in proportion.
So I think every term thereshould be a focus on these
(25:06):
issues in the youth groupprograms.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Every term.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, four times a year, A topic should touch in on
social media and the risks ofit.
There are aspects to this thatmight be multiple sessions,
Pornography, of course.
I think it needs to be calledout and realizing that by 15 in
a church, 70% of the boys willbe looking at it regularly,
(25:35):
right by 15 years old.
So that's normal, that'sstatistical.
20% of the girls, 100% of them,will be on social media.
So you know, this is notforeign to most of these kids.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But if you're not meeting their world with a
biblical response, well thenyou're saying tacitly that
that's not important to you Now,if you're a church like ours
which does systematic Bibleteaching most of the time, how
would you I mean you've gotteenage or you've had teenage
(26:09):
kids.
You know how did you encourage.
You were a pastor when they hadteenage kids.
You know how did you encourageand you were a pastor when they
were teenage kids.
You know how did you encourageyour local youth group to manage
these issues.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, I mean I can understand.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
One topical night a year, you know.
But how did you do it?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
you know, in the Okay , when I was a youth leader,
when I was in that role, wedidn't have anywhere near the
threat of the internet that wehave now.
Yeah, Okay, when I was a youthleader, when I was in that role,
we didn't have anywhere nearthe threat of the internet that
we have now.
2010 was when I left parishministry, so the world's changed
vastly A lot.
Yeah, the smartphone had noteven become mainstream by then,
and that is the big game changer.
So I can only give advicemoving forward based on what I
(26:48):
see now, and that is, I thinkthe teams need to have a serious
planning about how they'regoing to allocate responses to
all the topics, and if you'regoing to be doing expository and
systematic sort of topics, youneed to have breaks so that you
can put in the topical inbetween.
And I think you also talked abit leaders about the culture
(27:10):
that they lead by with theirkids.
What are they like, not justwith what they say, but how they
live, how they engage with eachother, how they conduct
themselves on the online world,how they use their phones those
sorts of things that will becaught by the kids as well as
taught, you see.
So we want to make sure thatwe're setting up good behavior
standards amongst our leadershipteams.
(27:31):
We want to make sure that we'resetting up good behaviour
standards amongst our leadershipteams.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
How do you encourage me, as a senior pastor, to do
that with the youth leader, kidsleader teams?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I talk about it with them and listen to them.
I think the thing about seniorpastors is that if we didn't
grow up with a smartphone as ateenager, we don't understand
their world.
It's almost incomprehensible toimagine that every part of your
life intersects with theinternet, because we've had so
much of our life not internetaffected, right?
(28:00):
I grew up my teen years and itdidn't exist, you see.
So I don't know what it's liketo have all my music, all my
socializing, all my media,everything coming through the
internet.
I've got to listen to what it'slike for them.
I've got to understand not justthe pressures but how they
function and so that we canstart to harness their insights
(28:22):
into the strategic brainstormingabout approaching the next
generation with helpful contentto lead them through it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Now, just in terms of wrapping up, it sounds like
you're encouraging JonathanHaidt's Sanctious Generation
book for parents.
What other reading do you want?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I think that's a good book.
I think Patricia Wirikun'srecent publication, parenting by
the Book is a good one.
You'll find that at Coorong orYouthWorks Media and other
places.
That's a terrific guide.
There's various onlineresources.
I would point you to theresistpornorg website, which is
the sister site to the other oneyou mentioned, which is
(28:59):
resistprogramorg.
It was set up by the SydneyAnglicans and it's associated
with my resist ministries, andit has a suite of helpful
resources for parents to go andupskill on things from
conversation to thinking throughat-home habits and private
behaviours personal behavioursas well.
So there's some good resourcesthere for them to dig into.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Great Thanks very much for coming in.
My pleasure, MarshallBallantyne-Jones has been my
guest.
Marshall created the DigiHelpschool curriculum addressing
sexualised media and the ResistRecovery Program,
resistprogramorg.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and
today, pastors helping parentstalk to teens about social media
, the internet and pornography.
There is the addictive nature ofsocial media, the mental health
impact on teens, distortedidentity and comparison, and the
way the attention economy teensdistorted identity and
comparison and the way theattention economy undermines
(00:29):
discipleship and parents sooften feeling out of their depth
.
Our youth leaders here asked mea month or so to run a seminar
for parents on these topics andwe lined up the seminar, set a
date, publicised it and then theAdolescent series came out on
Netflix and that has changed theconversation again.
But to guide me on how toprepare the seminar for our
(00:50):
church and hopefully to guideyou on a seminar at your church,
we have MarshallValentine-Jones with us.
He created the DigiHelp SchoolCurriculum Program addressing
sexualised media and also theResist Recovery program.
You can see that atresistprogramorg.
Now, marshall, let's start withthis adolescent series that has
(01:13):
made such a splash on Netflixand it's become, I mean really
all the rage amongst theeducators and is amongst the
educators and is raising reallyalarming questions about
parental neglect.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, it's amazing how volatile the reaction has
been in the media, amongstschools, amongst parent groups,
amongst community leaders thatan otherwise provocative but
interesting story is socaptivating.
It's gripped, our society'sthinking it's gripped, and part
of it is.
It's putting a very clearchallenge out to carers of
(01:53):
children, parents and schoolleaders about the risks their
children are posed by theinternet and particularly to
what extent the parent andleadership neglect may
contribute to the worst outcomesthat those risks pose.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
A boy does something really bad because of the
influence of the internet.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So yeah, without being a party pooper and
spoiling it for those whohaven't seen it, because people
should see it if they're aparent the premise is a boy's
been accused of murder of a peerand he comes from a very
ordinary family and when theyexamine him it almost seems
irrational that this couldhappen.
(02:36):
But they dig deeper and theystart to see that he's been
influenced by various things,including the internet, some of
the incel culture, andrew Tateand others, and they're
wondering whether this has beena catalyst for a diabolical
crime.
And it puts the question on usas carers is the internet that
our children are exposed tocapable of taking a normal,
(02:58):
healthy and loved child andturning them into something
diabolical?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I mean there's all sorts of kind of I mean before
we actually get to somesolutions.
I'm just sort of exploringproblems or issues that are
surrounding us at the moment.
We've got the social media lawsin the social media age raised
from 13 to 16 in Australia,although not in many of the
other places where people arewatching and listening to us.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, that's right.
So some of your audience willbe familiar with Jonathan
Haidt's recent publication, theAnxious Generation, which came
out last year.
It's still a New York Timesbestseller, and it did a
remarkable job at exposing therecent research on the effects
of social media on mental health, anxiety, depression and
(03:46):
adolescent well-being, and fromit he puts forward some pretty
potent arguments for why the ageof access to social media needs
to be raised to 16.
And so, as it happens, therewas a very quick but bipartisan
decision made at our federallevel late last year to raise
(04:07):
the minimum age of access to asocial media account to 16, when
it was previously 13.
So that's the sort of currentdiscussion happening.
But, as a researcher, the firstthing that I would want to note
and I think people need tounderstand that when it was 13
as the minimum age, the averageage that someone was having a
(04:27):
social media account for thefirst time was actually 11 and a
half, and so the immediatequestion is does a law like this
actually become?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So setting the law at 16 might pull it up to 14 or
something.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, yeah, people are going to ask is this going
to make any difference?
That they're already jumping on, on average at 11 and a half.
What's the point of having aminimum age?
How do you enforce it?
Well, park that to the side,because I think these laws are
really targeted at the big techcompanies as opposed to child
behavior, but they do givepermission for schools and for
parents to actually say no andgo against the tide of pressure
(05:05):
that the adolescent culture putson them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You just alluded to big tech and I mean I think
we're talking predatorialmethods through algorithms.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Oh, yeah, big tech.
You know the big ones areFacebook, instagram, same
company, even YouTube, TikTok,snapchat.
They are all aggressively andvigorously trying to harvest our
children's attention andloyalty, and they do it very
cleverly.
They do it through identifyingtheir profiles and then
(05:37):
targeting them with content thatwill be not just interesting to
them but also be captivating,even displacing to them.
And they use the dopamine cycle, with the very basic technology
of the thumb scroll, with thereels, to just keep them hooked
on getting content, whicheventually takes them down a
(05:59):
spiral of dependency.
And these big tech companies arein ruthless competition with
each other for profits, right?
So they're working very hard tonot just win the children over,
but to win them against thecompetition and to capture them
for themselves.
And so what happens is a kid at11, 12, sometimes younger gets
their phone from mom or gets theiPad, gets the account and big
(06:19):
tech immediately startsthrusting content at them.
It's going to suck them intothis addictive cycle, and this
is at a time in their life wherethey're just about to embark
upon massive neurological changeas they prepare for adulthood.
And what this intrusiveactivity from big tech does is
it?
Basically?
It reshapes their wiring oftheir brain and stunts, distorts
(06:44):
and eventually corrupts theirnot just thinking, but their
feelings and then theirbehaviours.
And we have this massiveworldwide catastrophe at the
present of mental healthdisorders amongst young people
which we've never seen before,and big tech has been a massive
contributor to that problem.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So what's your recommendation to Christian
parents?
Well, I think what do you wantto say to me as I try to educate
Christian parents at thisseminar?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, Well, I think the first thing we need to call
out what's going on.
We need to understand just howprevalent not only the access is
to social media, to other formsof digital entertainment like
computer gaming and so forth,and pornography as well.
I mean, these are so prevalentthat basically, what they're
doing is they're washing overour kids on vast numbers.
(07:33):
We've got to, we've got toexplain that and what harm that
does, so that parents areinformed that they don't just
realize that this is a benignissue.
It's just a bit of harmless fun, it's just good distraction, it
doesn't hurt me as much, saysthe parents.
No, this is kids at their mostformidable age of change, and so
, yeah, we need to call out thedamage and then we need to start
(07:54):
giving some very basic butclear instructions about
limiting access.
So limiting access is the firstthing we want to really
instruct parents to do.
Kids don't need a smartphone at11.
If they need a phone to get incontact because they missed the
bus after school, well, okay,we'll get them a dumb phone, but
we don't need a smartphone, andso we certainly want to hold
(08:18):
back the frequency of exposureto these things.
Then, really, we want to startlooking at the culture of that
family, because it's not just afamily of rules and restrictions
.
That's very important.
That does make a difference.
But we also want parents whoconverse with their children,
talk with them, teach them,educate them, share worldviews
(08:39):
with them, understand thechild's worldview and model.
Parents need to.
They need to need to modeltheir tech habits.
I mean, it's one thing to sayno, you can't be on your phone,
no, you can't have a socialmedia account, but then you know
you're always on it yourself.
I think parents need to look attheir own behaviors, but they
also need to model good relating, because I think if there's one
helpful thing from thisadolescence series is it really
(09:04):
exposes the type of relationalharm that can happen in a cohort
of young people if you let themrun loose with the influence of
technology.
Well, kids, I know, with my work, I go around to schools and I
go out to churches.
I speak to tens of thousands ofkids a year and we ask them
what's it like for you?
And what we hear everywhere wego is that there is just rife
(09:24):
sexualized behaviors.
The girls sadly and tragicallycop a disproportionate amount of
harmful attention, primarilyfrom boys.
A lot of it's to do with theinfluence of pornography, but
all the while, in the schoolcommunities and church
communities we actually have ahigher rate of sexual harassment
.
And you know behaviours basicbehaviours of decency and
(09:47):
empathy and kindness need to berelearned by a lot of these
young kids because they've beeneducated to be dysfunctional,
educated to be harmful becauseof the online content.
So parents can model goodrelating in the way they speak
with each other, the way theylive with each other, the way
they relate through problems andso forth, and basically show
(10:08):
children a better and moreloving way to resolve their
relational challenges.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Because you surprise me.
I mean, I'm just showing myout-of-touchness here.
I had imagined that all thepublicity around the Me Too
movement of a couple of yearsago would have had an impact on
better behaviour amongst youngerpeople, but you're saying it's
(10:40):
still rife.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Well, I mean, the irony is, since the Me Too
movement, the reports that wehave amongst the experiences of
teenagers today is worse thanwhat it was before the you know,
the me too movement, and weshouldn't be surprised when we
actually what's yourinterpretation of that?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
well, because, I mean I'm surprised.
You say I shouldn't besurprised well, there's two
reasons.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
One is just the unrelenting influence of online
sexualized culture through theinternet on young people.
It just doesn't stop.
When a boy gets his phone inyear six, again, the average age
of first time exposure topornography is 11 and a half.
What he's seeing today 2025, isso extreme, so callous, um,
(11:25):
it's so harmful.
This just reinforces a way ofthinking of other people which
is um.
It overcomes the consent andthe respect messages that are
being rolled out in schools,like that.
One good thing about the me toomovement.
But it did give educators themotivation to change sex ed and
(11:50):
consent respect was one of the,I guess, spear point strategies
that they have brought in tooffset these sexualized
behaviors.
But you can't keep up at schoolwith a once a year program with
the hours a day education thatthey're getting online.
So it's a race and essentiallywho's winning is the online
(12:15):
educators, namely thepornographers and the
sexualisers.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay.
So I mean you talk about aonce-a-year program.
I mean I'm going to have aseminar for parents at our
church.
I mean I'm going to have aseminar for parents at our
church.
You say boys are having theirfirst encounter with pornography
at 11 and a half.
What would you say that weshould talk about in our seminar
(12:43):
for parents?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well, I think one of the things we want to talk about
is that you have to understandthat you're in a competition and
you need to have a culture ofeducation with your young people
, with your children.
You need to not just have thetalk or take them to a seminar
or do a study or a program, butthey need to be in a persistent
(13:07):
and consistent process ofhealthy, holistic, godly,
grace-driven, loving,other-person-centered,
human-affirming education.
Be prepared to have thoseconversations and set that tone
(13:29):
and cultivate a counterculturaland a revolutionary mindset to
how we understand each other,how we understand good sexuality
.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Now that sounds like a good practice to have.
What if I'm a parent watching?
Or what if I'm a pastorwatching?
Or if I'm a pastor aware thatprobably there's a number of
families in our church wherethey haven't got that culture at
the moment?
How do we I mean I presume youcan't do 180-degree change the
first day there's actually gotto be how would you go about
(14:04):
bringing that about?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
It's a great question .
With my parent seminars, we dospend a bit of time on this.
There's two types of parentsthat we will be addressing.
One are the new parents, whothis is all before them, and
we're encouraging them to set upthe culture well so that their
children could resist the issuesthat come to them as time goes
on.
but we're also doing recoveryfor others, and so often it is
(14:28):
parents of teenagers, and thekids have had their phone for
three years, four years already,and now they're for the first
time realising oh my goodness,this is actually really bad.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I mean we do have a generation who got
Facebook or Instagram at 13 andnow Other parents.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, well, yeah.
So what we're saying is thatwith with these situations,
first and foremost, you need towork out your strategy and you
need to work what, what yourgoals are.
What will be the standard thatI want moving forward?
And with your spouse, um, ifyou're in that situation, I know
that there are single parentsout there.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
But yeah, I'm just thinking what about when you've
got a divorced couple and mumand dad disagree on this issue?
That's a whole other problem.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, it's not uncommon, so it's a common
problem.
I come across this a lot andit's difficult, but where you
can try to negotiate the rightoutcomes and discuss where you
can why this is important sothat you can be on the same page
, because in the end, you wantto make sure that when it comes
to having, I think, what willinvariably be a showdown with
(15:38):
the child about the change ofthe world order at home.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So it's likely to be a door slamming moment.
It can be.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But I think because no kid likes to hear hey, no,
and they also don't want to havetheir what has now become
dependent love that I'm actuallyaddicted here.
Yeah, taken away from me, itwill be displacing for them.
So people may not know this,but the average a recent study
said that the average amount oftime that an Australian child
(16:09):
spends on screens a day that'snot school-related by mid-high
school is four and a half hours.
Three years ago, the averageamount of time they spent on
social media a day was about twohours.
These numbers have gone up.
You take that away from them,you're like ripping out
something from there that's soimportant.
(16:29):
It's going to leave a gapinghole and it's going to feel
difficult.
So there's a lot more that wecan say about how to handle that
very process in them, but atleast you need to work on your
strategy.
And if you can wind it back, acouple of words of assurance and
also warning to parents.
The first, actually I'll gowith the warning first.
The way that you and your childare relating with each other,
(16:53):
as in, if it's a good qualityrelationship, if it's happy and
balanced, that's not anindicator to the amount of
difficulty or potential problemthat the online world is having
on them.
You can't predict your child'sonline effects and influences
based on your quality ofrelationship.
So that's the first thing, andstudies are showing that parents
(17:16):
persistently underestimate howmuch negative influence the
online world is having on them,including how much sex ed
they're getting from pornographymales and females.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You had a second point, then I want to jump into
pornography.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So the second point is that if you do have a
conflict with your child, aconflict doesn't reduce the
quality of the relationship thatyou have with your child and it
won't reduce their self-esteemand it won't reduce their
emotional stability.
So parents often fear, whenthey say no and they have a
World War III with Sally or Johnabout this, that the kid's
(17:47):
going to hate them and it's justnot worth going there.
Well, actually the kids don'thate you, even if there is a
fight.
They feel secure in that andthey actually realize, if you're
explaining why you're comingdown with these rules, that you
love them and it's for theirgood outcome.
And so in the immediate itwon't feel good, but later they
will reflect.
I can give a testimony myfamily, I, I was like this with
my three adult children.
(18:08):
They all say to me now Dad, wehated your rules, we hated your
restrictions, we hated thefights, but we're so glad you
did it, you see, so don't fearthe fight.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
We've had our young adult children say similar
things to us recently too.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
yeah, so it's worth it.
It won't harm the relationship,yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Say, I've got an 11-and-a-half-year-old and I
think they might have seenpornography.
How do I do that conversation,or I think their friends are
seeing it, and so how do I giveme a role play of how you might
do that conversation?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well, I mean, it will always feel uncomfortable to
have this conversation, but Ithink you just want to ask them,
sit them down, say, look, I'mnot going to judge you, but I
really want to understand whatit's like for you.
So tell me, have you seen anyof this?
Are you aware of?
If your friends have seen this,if they try to show you, how
did it make you feel?
What did you want to do?
What was your thoughts aboutdisclosing that to me?
(19:10):
Were you worried how I'd reactand start the conversation going
?
You know it's interestingParents.
Often a reaction of a goodparent who's put in principles
and processes their reaction tothe kid who discloses that
looked at porn or done somethingelse that's not right online is
(19:30):
to be angry and to feel hurt.
And that could be quite a rightand justified reaction because
you feel that they've beendeceitful or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Disrespecting women.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Disrespect all those things.
And yet what we need to realizeis it's the parent who the kid
never tells.
That's the parent who reallyneeds to be worried.
When your kid tells you thatthey've seen something, done
something, you need to pause andrealize this is actually a
moment of opportunity.
It was brave for them to say itand they really need help.
(20:06):
And I can't impress upon parentsenough how helpless the kids
are in this wild world out thereand we need to give them a
little bit of slack, a littlebit of grace.
The pornographers and thepredators and big tech are all
out there like hungry beastsafter them, and they've got
their friends and their peersand peer culture, which is so
(20:26):
powerful and potent.
And you know, should we besurprised that something
eventually got through thecracks and reached them?
No, at this point, when theytell you you've got an
opportunity and your opportunityis to now start to shepherd
them in a loving and in anunderstanding way into right
thinking, right behaviors.
And so I just be careful ofthat first reaction back,
(20:47):
because it might be the reasonthat they never come to you
again if you bite their headsoff too early and then, once
they've disclosed something toyou.
You need to start opening up theconversation more regularly
because you might need todebrief on the content that
they've seen and work throughthat, because there's some stuff
(21:09):
out there which is traumaticjust to know that it exists, let
alone see visually.
And then we need to start thehealthy conversations about how
to treat people and where aperson's identity and value is
and what God's got to say aboutgood relationships and a good
long term.
I think it's really importantparents take these chances to
paint the positive picture thepositive picture of what God has
(21:33):
planned for young people andwhat you as parents, want for
your young people, and whythat's a positive picture and
why it's worth waiting forholding back from being
different now to attain, and ifthat's, a healthy relationship
in the future, healthyfriendships and so forth, being
respected yourself and treatedas a person, not as an object.
(21:55):
These are all greatconversations which we can
instill now by laying down thevision.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
What kind of culture can we, as church leaders, work
to create, both amongst thefamilies and in the youth
program that will be supportivein this space.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It's a great question .
It's a broad question.
I think, as leaders, we've gotto look at a few things.
We've got to look at whatproportion of conversation we
give to our teaching programsand into our Bible studies and
so forth, which acknowledge andengage with the pressure of
online sexualisation, becausethis is everywhere Every Netflix
(22:36):
show, every streaming show, ads, music clips and then, of
course, social media feeds andpornography.
It's everywhere, right?
So most people in ourcongregations will be bombarded
by this adults and children,families, singles how do?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
you do.
I mean for some smallerchurches and even medium-sized
churches.
There's an issue of we've gotone group of teens or two age
groups of teens and how do we doage-appropriate discussions?
What's your advice there?
Because my sense is someparents are going to be saying
(23:18):
that's too risque discussion formy year 7s to be in, and yet
it's the necessary discussionfor the year 10s and 12s to be
in.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, I think the church leaders should have a sit
down and discuss with theparents what would be an
appropriate way to approach it,because the parents need to give
consent to these type ofdiscussions.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Discussions yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I think you already gave the answer in your
question the way that weapproach different age groups
needs to be in anage-appropriate way and, yes,
when I speak to Year 7, therewill be some kids who will be
aware of the darker side of theinternet.
But speak to year seven,there'll be some kids who will
be aware of the darker side ofthe internet, but the other kids
will be potentially completelyignorant, and so we don't want
to thrust those ignorant kidsinto the dark world unnecessary
(23:59):
but I think you don't have to tobe able to talk about in
general why the online world isrisky, potentially harmful, and
we need to talk about the valuesand aspects of humanity that is
endowed in scriptures, aboutour worth as image bearers of
God, about people who areredeemed by the love of Christ,
(24:20):
how love is the driving force.
So we can talk about thosevalues and apply them in a way
which can touch in on theinternet world or in their peer
and peer relationships andonline engagements, which don't
have to go overtly down thetunnel of darkness, but it says
enough for those who are thereto know that it's a call out to
(24:42):
them to come out.
So that can be done.
But it's not just how you do it, it's how often you do it.
I think you need to againstrategically think through how
regularly you visit these topics, because if this is the raging
world that they're in, you haveto meet that in proportion.
So I think every term thereshould be a focus on these
(25:06):
issues in the youth groupprograms.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Every term.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, four times a year, A topic should touch in on
social media and the risks ofit.
There are aspects to this thatmight be multiple sessions,
Pornography, of course.
I think it needs to be calledout and realizing that by 15 in
a church, 70% of the boys willbe looking at it regularly,
(25:35):
right by 15 years old.
So that's normal, that'sstatistical.
20% of the girls, 100% of them,will be on social media.
So you know, this is notforeign to most of these kids.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But if you're not meeting their world with a
biblical response, well thenyou're saying tacitly that
that's not important to you Now,if you're a church like ours
which does systematic Bibleteaching most of the time, how
would you I mean you've gotteenage or you've had teenage
(26:09):
kids.
You know how did you encourage.
You were a pastor when they hadteenage kids.
You know how did you encourageand you were a pastor when they
were teenage kids.
You know how did you encourageyour local youth group to manage
these issues.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, I mean I can understand.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
One topical night a year, you know.
But how did you do it?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
you know, in the Okay , when I was a youth leader,
when I was in that role, wedidn't have anywhere near the
threat of the internet that wehave now.
Yeah, Okay, when I was a youthleader, when I was in that role,
we didn't have anywhere nearthe threat of the internet that
we have now.
2010 was when I left parishministry, so the world's changed
vastly A lot.
Yeah, the smartphone had noteven become mainstream by then,
and that is the big game changer.
So I can only give advicemoving forward based on what I
(26:48):
see now, and that is, I thinkthe teams need to have a serious
planning about how they'regoing to allocate responses to
all the topics, and if you'regoing to be doing expository and
systematic sort of topics, youneed to have breaks so that you
can put in the topical inbetween.
And I think you also talked abit leaders about the culture
(27:10):
that they lead by with theirkids.
What are they like, not justwith what they say, but how they
live, how they engage with eachother, how they conduct
themselves on the online world,how they use their phones those
sorts of things that will becaught by the kids as well as
taught, you see.
So we want to make sure thatwe're setting up good behavior
standards amongst our leadershipteams.
(27:31):
We want to make sure that we'resetting up good behaviour
standards amongst our leadershipteams.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
How do you encourage me, as a senior pastor, to do
that with the youth leader, kidsleader teams?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I talk about it with them and listen to them.
I think the thing about seniorpastors is that if we didn't
grow up with a smartphone as ateenager, we don't understand
their world.
It's almost incomprehensible toimagine that every part of your
life intersects with theinternet, because we've had so
much of our life not internetaffected, right?
(28:00):
I grew up my teen years and itdidn't exist, you see.
So I don't know what it's liketo have all my music, all my
socializing, all my media,everything coming through the
internet.
I've got to listen to what it'slike for them.
I've got to understand not justthe pressures but how they
function and so that we canstart to harness their insights
(28:22):
into the strategic brainstormingabout approaching the next
generation with helpful contentto lead them through it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Now, just in terms of wrapping up, it sounds like
you're encouraging JonathanHaidt's Sanctious Generation
book for parents.
What other reading do you want?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I think that's a good book.
I think Patricia Wirikun'srecent publication, parenting by
the Book is a good one.
You'll find that at Coorong orYouthWorks Media and other
places.
That's a terrific guide.
There's various onlineresources.
I would point you to theresistpornorg website, which is
the sister site to the other oneyou mentioned, which is
(28:59):
resistprogramorg.
It was set up by the SydneyAnglicans and it's associated
with my resist ministries, andit has a suite of helpful
resources for parents to go andupskill on things from
conversation to thinking throughat-home habits and private
behaviours personal behavioursas well.
So there's some good resourcesthere for them to dig into.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Great Thanks very much for coming in.
My pleasure, MarshallBallantyne-Jones has been my
guest.
Marshall created the DigiHelpschool curriculum addressing
sexualised media and the ResistRecovery Program,
resistprogramorg.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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