December 9, 2024 • 32 mins
Church Leaders have welcomed the report of the trial of cashless gambling which recommends that ‘account based gambling’ be introduced in New South Wales by 2028.
There are bigger problems with gambling in Sydney and New South Wales than pretty much anywhere in the world (outside Las Vegas).
But the Clubs and Hotels industry is running a narrative attempting to discredit the trial, calling it a three million dollar waste of money.
Senior Minister of Sydney’s Wesley Mission Stu Cameron was the church representative on the inquiry panel and says while the outcome is welcome, it’s now up to the government, ‘the devil will be in the details’ and we need to keep the pressure on.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today we go gambling.
Well, we examine the tragic,murky mess that gambling causes
in ruining people's lives, andthe worst impact of gambling
pretty much anywhere in theworld is in New South Wales and
then here in Sydney we areaddicts.
(00:20):
A report on what to dofollowing a trial of cashless
gambling was released last week.
The clubs and hotels industryis running a narrative
discrediting the trial, but thereport does actually recommend
mandatory statewideaccount-based gambling pretty
(00:40):
much cashless gambling, and thatit'd start in 2028.
Stu Cameron is Senior Ministerof Wesley Central Mission in the
centre of Sydney.
His church is deeply involvedin helping addicts, helping
gambling addicts, and so Stu wasthe church guy on the panel,
the inquiry panel, and he iswith us on the Pastor's heart
(01:01):
this afternoon.
Stu Cameron, let's start withyour pastor's heart, and I mean
the pubs and clubs are sayingthe whole inquiry was a waste of
time, but I think you're moreoptimistic.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, cautiously.
So I think we've moved theconversation forward.
I mean, dominic, two years agohere in New South Wales we
weren't having this conversationat all.
I mean for six decades.
Particularly the poker machineindustry here in New South Wales
had really suppressed anyconversation, had both sides of
(01:43):
politics running scared.
It really had captured thewhole political class and it
wasn't until Dominic Perrottetput his head above the parapet
leading into the last stateelection.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So former Premier of New South Wales, former Premier
of New.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
South Wales LNP and I actually interviewed him for an
Easter breakfast at WesleyMission and I asked him about
six months earlier what hethought about poker machines and
the fact that the New SouthWales government is as addicted
as anybody because of thetaxation revenue they rely on,
and he said in that conversation, which was reported on later,
(02:22):
that he wished that the NewSouth Wales government didn't
take $1 from those machines.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, I mean, that's what I wish.
I wish people like you and mepaid higher tax so that
underprivileged people wouldn'thave their lives ruined.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and six months later he announced this
staggering policy of going tomandatory universal cashless
gambling by 2028.
And I think he stunned us.
To be frank, he stunned the NewSouth Wales pubs and clubs
industry and he stunned Labor,and so New South Wales Labor had
(02:57):
to scramble to come up withtheir own policy.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I mean it was exciting to see that the Greens.
If we go over to the far left,though, I remember our local
member, jamie Parker our localmember at the time saying he was
so proud of right-wing DominicPerrottet over that announcement
.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Absolutely, and there's no question.
Look, Josh Landis, who was thenthe CEO of Clubs New South
Wales, reportedly said well,he's doing this out of his
Catholic guilt, or somethinglike that, and in the end he
lost his job over those comments, those quite disparaging
comments.
But there's no question thatDominic Perrette, who has a
(03:36):
strong Catholic faith, RomanCatholic faith really was a
conviction.
This wasn't something he wasnecessarily going to win votes
over and it was also somethinghe was going to also cop a lot
of internal flack within the LNP.
There were people within theLiberal National Party that were
resisting any reform, so hespent a lot of political capital
(04:00):
.
It was a really courageous moveand it forced Labor to come up
with their own policy.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And I mean Labor.
I thought were weak on thisissue going to the state
election, and I do actuallyremember talking to one of their
candidates who said she thoughtthey were a bit weak too.
But where are they now?
What's the report come out tosay, and where does it leave the
(04:28):
government?
Let's do what's the report sayfirst.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, the report says , as you said in your
introduction, the introductionof an account-based gambling
system for poker machines andpubs and clubs, by 2028,
voluntary initially and then by2028, mandatory, allowing for
some cash top-ups.
Now, we were the only I was theonly panel member that said
there should be no cash, whichaligns with the Crime Commission
(04:53):
, because with poker machines,it's not just around the
addictive nature of them, which,of course, is what we're
primarily interested in, butalso crims.
Basically use poker machines tolaunder money.
The Crime Commissioner showedthat.
So you can go into a pub or aclub and, on a machine that can
take $10,000 in cash to this day, you can put it in and then,
(05:15):
five minutes later, take out$9,990 and you've washed that
money clean, and so the CrimeCommissioner was saying we
should have no cash on pokermachines, and we totally agree
with that, and we'redisappointed that in the end the
panel executive did notrecommend that.
Having said that, they didrecommend account-based gambling
(05:35):
, which means it's identitylinked.
It means it does allow for harmminimisation measures to be
built in, like breaks in play,like spending limits, these
sorts of things.
So if I could use an analogy,the devil's in the detail,
measures to be built in likebreaks in play, like spending
limits, these sorts of things.
So if I could use an analogy,the devil's in the detail.
So that detail still needs tobe worked through.
So that's significant.
We're really disappointed thatan opportunity to close down
(05:58):
poker machines between midnightand 10am wasn't embraced by the
panel executive.
We strongly advocated for that.
We still are doing that, and82% of New South Wales residents
say they want to see pokermachines powered down between
midnight and 10 am.
So we're disappointed thatrecommendation hasn't come
through.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What's the amount of gambling that gets done?
In that I mean after I've goneto bed.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Look, we don't know exactly, or that information is
not yet published, but what wedo know is this Nobody makes
good decisions after midnightNobody, nothing good happens in
a poker machine venue at 3o'clock in the morning.
Let's be honest, and certainlysurveys and research shows that
those who are at significantlyhigher risk of gambling harm are
(06:42):
the ones who are in thosevenues in the early hours, and
so we think that a sensible andproportionate reform is to power
down the machines betweenmidnight and 10am.
Now there are some venuesacross New South Wales that are
only closed down for two orthree hours a day.
They close down at 6am andthey're up and open again at 9
or 10am in the morning.
We think that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Okay, what's this top-up thing you were talking
about?
Because I mean you say, and Isaid in my introduction, it's
almost cashless gambling.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
What's the almost there?
Well, the recommendation is toallow people to top up their
card.
They have a card.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So everyone you've got a card Say I put $1,000 on
my card or $500 on my card.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So you can load that up, you can top that up and with
limits to be determined, and Ican keep doing that.
Yeah, I can keep puttinganother $500, and another $500?
.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Exactly so I could still launder money through my
card.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It would make it harder, there's no question
about that, depending on howmuch you're able to load up and
the argument being here that youknow, for people who are from
overseas or in a state who justwant to have a, you know, have a
flutter on the machines whilethey're in New South Wales, this
allows for them to be able todo that.
We think that there are otherways of dealing with those
(08:01):
particular issues.
We think a card that's directlylinked to a bank account.
You're able then to be able totransfer.
That has limits around thatdaily load-up limits, monthly
load-up limits, yearly load-uplimits as was recommended by the
New South Wales government intheir implementation of cashless
(08:23):
technology.
It's happening in Victoria.
This reform will happen.
You and I both know that oureconomy is increasingly going
cashless.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, I mean, we had a pre-conversation yesterday on
the phone and I think we bothtalked about the fact that we
hardly carry money anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I've got a $50 note in my wallet that I haven't
touched for about six months.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, I know, yeah, and so it's going to have to go
cashless.
I mean, even if the governmentdidn't want to do it, the
reality is it must go there thatway.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Well, I mean the silly thing is that the
technology is being used inCrown Casino in Melbourne Now,
when it was voluntary.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
People won't sign up for a voluntary scheme and, if
anything, the trial showed thatIf you have a voluntary scheme,
I've got here a little videoclip I'm going to play it to you
from the news from last weekwhen I think Channel 7 has
actually bought the pubs andclubs line.
Let's watch this 30 seconds andthen we'll dig into that issue.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
The state government's controversial trial
of cashless poker machines hasbeen exposed as an expensive
waste of time.
The final report was deliveredtoday, revealing more than $3
million was spent, but only 14gamblers bothered to stick with
it.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
The government's punt on cashless gaming has turned
out to be no jackpot win.
During a six-month trial, adigital wallet was introduced
for pokies in 14 clubs andhotels across the state, but
today the final report revealedit was an expensive loss.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
The take-up rates were very disappointing.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
OK, stuart, that's Channel 7's report and let's
just pick up on a couple ofthose clauses.
An expensive waste of time.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, look, pubs and clubs were the venues in which
this trial obviously was hostedand effectively were responsible
for signing up participants.
They didn't really exactly havea lot of motivation to do so.
I mean, they participated inthe whole exercise, as we did,
in good faith.
But what the experience here inNew South Wales showed, what
(10:35):
experience in other states haveshown, when you have a voluntary
scheme where people sign up forthis technology voluntarily,
they won't do it.
It's been happening in Victoriafor years.
But when it's mandatory, whenthe only way that people are
able to use poker machines or,in Crown Casino's case, casino
games, then they will sign up.
(10:55):
So, for example, in Victoria,crown Casino for some time had a
voluntary scheme.
They were required to keeptheir license because of some
bad behavior in the past to havea mandatory cashless gambling
system.
Within the space of around ayear, 400,000 people signed up.
So it's really about themotivation.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It's demonstrated that it can work, oh 100%.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
The technology's there, it's been proven, it's in
the field, and so the narrativeof the pubs and clubs industry
is that it won't work.
Of course it will work, it isactually working, and it's
really about seeing thegovernment and our political
leaders having the politicalwill and courage to enact a
reform that will protecthundreds of thousands, if not
(11:41):
more than a million, new SouthWales residents.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well let's just come back to the government, or
Labor's position.
You've had the strong positionfrom the right, from Dominic
Perrottet, a strong positionfrom the far left in the Greens,
and the government caught inthe middle.
They went to the last electionwith the weakest policy on this
issue.
What do you think they're goingto do?
(12:05):
I mean, they're kind of hidingunder the blankets at the moment
.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, you know, look.
I mean we've worked reallyclosely with Minister Harris'
office, who's the currentMinister for Gaming and Racing,
and Minister Harris himself hasspoken publicly about his own
lived experience of gamblingharm in his family.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
In that he's got relatives who've yeah, indeed
yeah, who've experiencedgambling?
Harm Messed up lives.
Yeah, yeah, so he actuallywants to see reform.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
We believe he does.
We think he's operating in goodfaith.
He's one voice within Cabinet,so we want to make sure that
that voice is strengthened.
And other reform.
There's no question.
Within all parties and we'reseeing this federally as well,
in Labor, at a national levelthere are those who are saying
we need to do something aboutsports betting advertising, for
(12:53):
example.
We want to make sure that thevoices on the left and on the
right are strengthened so thatothers who might be wavering
within their ranks come on boardas well.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Do you think the government would be regretting
not taking?
I mean, I thought it would havebeen awesome last election.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It was an amazing opportunity to have bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
If the left, the right, the far left, all had
said let's go with the samepolicy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
We have all of the crossbench, so Helen Dalton and
Kate Fairman, and you have AlexGreenwich, as you say, all of
that crossbench which tendstowards the progressive side of
politics, all on board.
You had a great section of LNPon board, coming in behind
Dominic Perrottet.
There was an amazingopportunity, a moment in time
(13:43):
where we could have had enacteda reform that would have been
perhaps the most significantsocial reform in New South Wales
for some decades.
That moment was missed, butthat moment hasn't passed and
that's why it's incumbent uponthose of us who are believers to
be praying and working towardsthat end.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So right now the government's.
Well, the report has been madepublic but you haven't yet heard
what the government is going todo.
But really the pressure is onthe government.
If the Crime Commission said it, now your new report has said
it.
The Crime Commission said it.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Now your new report has said it 82%, or 72%, of New
South Wales residents are sayingthey have no issue with the
introduction of a mandatorycashless gambling card.
So the community is on board aswell.
And, of course, thegovernment's own research shows
that up to 1.7 million New SouthWales residents are at risk or
(14:32):
have been impacted by gamblingharm, either theirs or someone
they know.
This is an issue that touchesevery demographic and every
postcode in our state.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But particularly the lower socioeconomic postcodes.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So there are pubs in, for example, fairfield LGA yeah
, postcodes.
So there are pubs in, forexample, fairfield LGA, one of
their poorer LGAs, where pubswho have 26% of New South Wales
poker machines but make 44% ofthe profits.
There are pubs in the poorestpostcodes who, on their 30
machines, are making north of$10 million a year in profits on
(15:09):
their 30 machines, $300,000 to$400,000 per machine, $1,000 a
day per machine.
So they are staggering figures.
And so this is, at essence.
This is an economic fight, thisis a social reform fight, but
this is a spiritual battle,because this is a battle with
mammon and with principalitiesand powers, because when you
(15:32):
have such significant profitshere in New South Wales $8.1
billion lost on poker machinesevery single year, $1,000 for
every man, woman and child inthe state then those who are
benefiting from those profitseastern suburbs, pub barons and
others they're going to doeverything they can to protect
it, and that's why we need to bepraying into this.
(15:53):
We need to be with wisdom, wiseas serpents, gentle as doves.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
We need to be engaging in the political
conversation as well Is thesense that I mean when you talk
about that much profit per day.
There's obviously anextraordinary amount of money
being washed through the pokermachines.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Well, the Crime Commission found that they can't
quantify exactly how much.
So we don't know how much,hundreds of millions, of
billions.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We don't know how much is the percentage, that is,
if you like the problem gamblerand how much is dirty money.
We don't know that percentage.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
No, no, look, we know that a significant proportion
of poker machine profits comesfrom those who are experiencing
gambling harm, that asignificant proportion of poker
machine profits comes from thosewho are experiencing gambling
harm.
There was a Central QueenslandUniversity study released
earlier this year and theaverage poker machine punter in
Australia I think it was around$3,500 or $4,500 a year, because
(16:47):
only 18% of New South Walesresidents actually play the
poker.
So if you think you know, justmultiply that by $5,000, you're
looking $4,000 or $5,000 onaverage is being lost by a poker
machine player.
Now there'd be plenty that wouldbe much higher.
Some would be much lower thanthat.
(17:09):
So people who are losing tensof thousands of dollars, if not
not more, and we see thistragically playing out in
criminal cases again and again.
Again it's talking to a friendwho was a chaplain in one of our
prisons and he said to me timeand time again he's having
conversations with prisoners whoturned to crime to feed a
(17:30):
gambling addiction.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's having a profound impact on families and
individuals, assuming I go intopolitics because I want to do
the community good?
Why, when the argument is sostrong, is the government still?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
not biting the bullet or being dragged, kicking and
screaming.
Yeah, I mean my predecessor,alan Walker.
Back in the 1950s, a great manof God, a prophetic voice here
in Australia, when the thenLabor government was looking at
introducing poke machines,warned what would happen, what
this would mean for the stateand, tragically, his prediction,
(18:13):
his prophetic insight, provedto be true.
Because very soon after that,clubs first and then pubs.
In the 1990s again, it was aLabor government under Bob Carr
who allowed pubs, who weresaying we're so poor and the
clubs are so wealthy and we needto have these machines as well,
and we need to have thesemachines as well.
(18:38):
They have captured theconversation and they have had
politicians running, scared eversince of ever making any
adjustments to that, becausewhere money is, inevitably there
is power, and that power hasbeen brought to bear.
Clubs New South Wales for many,many years adopted the tactics
of the National RifleAssociation in America.
In other words, you attack.
(18:59):
The best form of defence isattack, and so when Julia
Gillard a number of years agowas going to enact reforms, they
came out on the attack andpoliticians watched that and
they get very nervous aboutmaking any change.
That's why bipartisan support isso crucial.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Let's just go to the federal sphere for a minute and
sports betting.
And I mean, as somebody whodoesn't go to the poker machines
at one level it doesn't affectme, but it totally affects me
that every ad break there isevery is every.
Every ad break.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There is a sports betting ad yeah, I mean over
north of quarter of a milliondollars is spent on sports
betting advertising in australia.
I mean it's a staggering and Ijust think little that I.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I know I'm not about to go gambling.
I know I'm not about to gogambling like that, but I just
think that little drip, drip,drip, drip of every ad break,
every ad break all year, must bechanged.
I mean, the hope is for thosepeople that it would change
people's lives and more peoplewould become gambling addicts.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And look, it's the normalisation Dominic you speak
of, because if you see iteverywhere on bus sides, on
television, on social media andit's targeting a particular
cohort, if you notice, if yourlisteners notice, it's targeting
in particular young men.
Bet with your mates is one ofthe slogans, and so we're seeing
(20:28):
in our services we providegambling, counselling services
and other services that touch onaddiction.
We're seeing increasingly youngmen who are caught up in this,
Even while they're in highschool.
We've got one young bloke whostarted punting when he was 15
and developed an addictionbefore he was even legally
allowed to bet.
And that's happening in ourprivate schools and our public
schools, and you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So it was a profound failure the other day that when
they rammed through 30 pieces oflegislation in the last five
hours of the parliament sittingfor the year, they couldn't do
this one.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, I think that proved, Dominic, where there's a
will, there's a way, yeah, butthere has.
There's a will, there's a way,yeah, but there has to be a will
and there's not a will.
On this, it seems like peoplelike Peter Volandes who has the
year of the Prime Minister, it'sreported are able to sow enough
.
Head of racing, head of rugbyleague yeah, exactly, and it is
(21:21):
the combination of the gamblingcompanies themselves.
It's the sporting codes thatbecome reliant on that revenue,
because for every bet that youplace on the NRL or the AFL, the
sporting codes themselves get acut of it.
You know somewhere AFLsomewhere around $40 million
that's before sponsorship.
(21:41):
So they're in on it as well.
And then so you've got thegambling companies, you have the
sporting codes, and then youhave the media channels,
particularly legacy media, whoare reliant on gambling
companies for advertisingrevenue.
They have three very powerfulvoices who are constantly
walking the corridors inParliament House in Canberra
(22:05):
just making the case for holdingthe line and doing nothing when
it comes to the Murphy inquiryrecommendations, most
particularly bringing in a fullban of sports betting
advertising.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
My friend Sandy Grant used the words gutless and
spineless.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, I think that's not out of order at all.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Why do you think the government was prepared to be
tough?
On the social media and liftthe age of social media use from
13 to 16?
I mean because at one level, Imean you listed all those
powerful people the rugby league, the AFL, the betting companies
, the whole gamut there.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
But you do think Google and YouTube and Facebook
are powerful as well, so theyweren't gutless there, whereas
they are gutless here I'mreading Jonathan Haidt's book on
the anxious generation, so Ihave some sympathy, some empathy
for the government's move there.
I'm not quite sure about theexecution, but it's inconsistent
.
It borders on you could arguehypocrisy to say, well, we need
(23:09):
to protect kids over here, butover here not so much.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
These other vulnerable people.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, and a lot of them are kids.
Dominic, if you talk tochaplains in our Anglican
schools or Catholic schools orin our Christian schools,
they'll tell you there are kidswho know more about sports
betting as they do about therules of the game.
We have normalised betting withsport.
(23:35):
I'm a sports addict.
I love it.
I love my sport, but we areruining it for the younger
generation.
We are saying you can't watch agame of elite sport without
knowing the odds.
That is poor form.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Explain to me the psychology of what's going on
with me betting on my phone.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, it's the same with poker machines.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Because there's the link, there isn't there.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
There is absolutely a link.
It's about….
The dopamine hit yeah it's theavailability and the speed.
So if you're on a poker machine, you can spin the wheels, so to
speak.
You can press the buttons everytwo to three seconds, so you
can just be….
It might be just $1 bet but youdo that every two or three
(24:23):
seconds.
It quickly clocks up.
Remembering that these machinesyou never win.
You never, ever win.
On the poker machines, they areprogrammed to ensure that you
lose.
Similarly with sports betting.
I mean, you can bet in-game.
There are multitudes of waysyou can bet, and so they're
always introducing options andproducts.
(24:44):
So it's not like back in theday before sports betting online
sports betting you'd walk intoa TAB and place a bet, wait for
the race to happen, then walkout.
Now, of course, you can bet onall sorts of sporting codes
elite or otherwise, and you canbet in multitudes of ways and
it's all just tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.
(25:06):
So there's no friction.
You're not passing your moneyover the counter.
There's no friction, there'sfrequency and there's a
prevalence of opportunity foryou to be able to do so.
It's the dopamine hits thatconnect both poker machine
addiction and sports bettingaddiction as well.
Fifty-seven percent of gamblingharm in Australia is a result
(25:28):
of poker machines, but a closesecond is sports betting and
online betting.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I'm just thinking to do it so easily.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
yeah, you can be lying in bed at 3 o'clock in the
morning betting on a soccergame in the UK in the third
division, yeah, in League 1 orLeague 2.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, when my defences are down, I'm not
thinking my best.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
It's like going into that poker machine venue at 3
o'clock in the morning.
So we live in this 24-7 cycle,this globalised cycle, and
there's so much to be thankfulfor.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So where's this debate going to go?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Well, I think where I believe it's going to go is
that we're going to get asensible proportion reform.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I mean it must get wound back, because every single
ad every single, yeah, I mean.
It's an avalanche of ads.
It's an avalanche Anyright-thinking person is going
to say this is too much.
It's an avalanche of ads.
It's any right-thinking personwho's going to say this is too
much.
It's being stuffed down mythroat, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And similarly what's happened with the social media
ban and the conversation aroundthat, as you alluded to before.
Parents are jumping up and downwhen it comes to sports betting
advertising.
Yeah, They've had a gutful theAFL and their own fan survey.
Overwhelmingly, AFL supportersare saying we don't want
gambling advertising.
(26:46):
We don't want gamblingassociated with our sport, so
it's going to be a groundswellof people that in the end, will
be a voice.
Governments and sporting codeswon't be able to.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean you and I, I think we're at the same age and
so we both remember smokingadvertisements when we were kids
and the phasing out of smokingadvertisements.
I mean we're actually watching,in a sense, the same forces
replaying.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It's the same playbook, yeah because then, you
know, the sporting codes, themedia companies, the tobacco
companies all screamed we'll beruined hand-in-hand.
You know we're not going tosurvive all of this.
Well, I watched Australia, youknow, beat India in the cricket
on the weekend.
The game is in robust health.
(27:32):
You know we still have ourlegacy media.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And the footy's not called the Winfield Cup anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No, no no, we don't have Benson and Hedges tests
anymore, and so on it goes.
So, look, we don't have Bensonand Hedges tests anymore, and so
on it goes.
So, look, the market willadjust.
The market will find a way ofmeeting those gaps.
But what will be different iswe'll see far less addiction,
we'll see far less harm, we'llsee far less suicidal ideation,
(28:00):
domestic and family violence,all the things that are
associated with gambling harm.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Why don't you lead in prayer for some of these
vulnerable in our community aswe finish?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, thank you so loving and gracious God.
We want to thank you.
We want to thank you for theopportunity and privilege we
have of standing alongside thosewho have no voice and helping
them find a voice to speak upfor justice.
Lord, we pray particularly forthose today who are struggling
with shame and with guiltbecause of their addictive
(28:33):
behaviours and the impact that'shad on them and had on those
whom they love.
Lord, we pray that you wouldlead them to a place of
confession and repentance andnew life, new life in Christ
that you offer them.
Lord.
God, we pray that you would drawaround those who suffer with
(28:54):
addiction right now, whetherit's gambling addiction, alcohol
addiction, drug addiction,whatever it might be, lord, that
you would tear down the idolsthat are destroying their lives
and that you would bring freedomand liberty.
In Jesus' name, lord, we praythat, as your church, you would
help us to minister to those whoare hurting, those who are
(29:16):
living under the yoke ofoppression.
That you would help us andempower us to speak out
prophetically against theprincipalities and powers that
would look to enslave andenchain.
Lord, god, we pray forpoliticians who have stepped up
and stepped out and boldlyspoken for reform.
(29:40):
We pray that you would raiseother women and men who would
stand alongside them and speakfor justice.
We pray all of this in themighty powerful name of Jesus,
our Saviour and our Lord, amen.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Amen.
Stu Cameron has been my gueston the Pastor's Heart.
He is the Senior Minister ofWesley Central Mission in the
centre of Sydney and, of course,wesley Mission long, long
history in being deeply involvedin supporting and caring for
underprivileged and well peoplestruggling with addiction.
My name is Dominic Steele andyou've been with us on the
(30:14):
Pastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today we go gambling.
Well, we examine the tragic,murky mess that gambling causes
in ruining people's lives, andthe worst impact of gambling
pretty much anywhere in theworld is in New South Wales and
then here in Sydney we areaddicts.
(00:20):
A report on what to dofollowing a trial of cashless
gambling was released last week.
The clubs and hotels industryis running a narrative
discrediting the trial, but thereport does actually recommend
mandatory statewideaccount-based gambling pretty
(00:40):
much cashless gambling, and thatit'd start in 2028.
Stu Cameron is Senior Ministerof Wesley Central Mission in the
centre of Sydney.
His church is deeply involvedin helping addicts, helping
gambling addicts, and so Stu wasthe church guy on the panel,
the inquiry panel, and he iswith us on the Pastor's heart
(01:01):
this afternoon.
Stu Cameron, let's start withyour pastor's heart, and I mean
the pubs and clubs are sayingthe whole inquiry was a waste of
time, but I think you're moreoptimistic.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, cautiously.
So I think we've moved theconversation forward.
I mean, dominic, two years agohere in New South Wales we
weren't having this conversationat all.
I mean for six decades.
Particularly the poker machineindustry here in New South Wales
had really suppressed anyconversation, had both sides of
(01:43):
politics running scared.
It really had captured thewhole political class and it
wasn't until Dominic Perrottetput his head above the parapet
leading into the last stateelection.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So former Premier of New South Wales, former Premier
of New.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
South Wales LNP and I actually interviewed him for an
Easter breakfast at WesleyMission and I asked him about
six months earlier what hethought about poker machines and
the fact that the New SouthWales government is as addicted
as anybody because of thetaxation revenue they rely on,
and he said in that conversation, which was reported on later,
(02:22):
that he wished that the NewSouth Wales government didn't
take $1 from those machines.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, I mean, that's what I wish.
I wish people like you and mepaid higher tax so that
underprivileged people wouldn'thave their lives ruined.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and six months later he announced this
staggering policy of going tomandatory universal cashless
gambling by 2028.
And I think he stunned us.
To be frank, he stunned the NewSouth Wales pubs and clubs
industry and he stunned Labor,and so New South Wales Labor had
(02:57):
to scramble to come up withtheir own policy.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I mean it was exciting to see that the Greens.
If we go over to the far left,though, I remember our local
member, jamie Parker our localmember at the time saying he was
so proud of right-wing DominicPerrottet over that announcement
.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Absolutely, and there's no question.
Look, Josh Landis, who was thenthe CEO of Clubs New South
Wales, reportedly said well,he's doing this out of his
Catholic guilt, or somethinglike that, and in the end he
lost his job over those comments, those quite disparaging
comments.
But there's no question thatDominic Perrette, who has a
(03:36):
strong Catholic faith, RomanCatholic faith really was a
conviction.
This wasn't something he wasnecessarily going to win votes
over and it was also somethinghe was going to also cop a lot
of internal flack within the LNP.
There were people within theLiberal National Party that were
resisting any reform, so hespent a lot of political capital
(04:00):
.
It was a really courageous moveand it forced Labor to come up
with their own policy.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And I mean Labor.
I thought were weak on thisissue going to the state
election, and I do actuallyremember talking to one of their
candidates who said she thoughtthey were a bit weak too.
But where are they now?
What's the report come out tosay, and where does it leave the
(04:28):
government?
Let's do what's the report sayfirst.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, the report says , as you said in your
introduction, the introductionof an account-based gambling
system for poker machines andpubs and clubs, by 2028,
voluntary initially and then by2028, mandatory, allowing for
some cash top-ups.
Now, we were the only I was theonly panel member that said
there should be no cash, whichaligns with the Crime Commission
(04:53):
, because with poker machines,it's not just around the
addictive nature of them, which,of course, is what we're
primarily interested in, butalso crims.
Basically use poker machines tolaunder money.
The Crime Commissioner showedthat.
So you can go into a pub or aclub and, on a machine that can
take $10,000 in cash to this day, you can put it in and then,
(05:15):
five minutes later, take out$9,990 and you've washed that
money clean, and so the CrimeCommissioner was saying we
should have no cash on pokermachines, and we totally agree
with that, and we'redisappointed that in the end the
panel executive did notrecommend that.
Having said that, they didrecommend account-based gambling
(05:35):
, which means it's identitylinked.
It means it does allow for harmminimisation measures to be
built in, like breaks in play,like spending limits, these
sorts of things.
So if I could use an analogy,the devil's in the detail,
measures to be built in likebreaks in play, like spending
limits, these sorts of things.
So if I could use an analogy,the devil's in the detail.
So that detail still needs tobe worked through.
So that's significant.
We're really disappointed thatan opportunity to close down
(05:58):
poker machines between midnightand 10am wasn't embraced by the
panel executive.
We strongly advocated for that.
We still are doing that, and82% of New South Wales residents
say they want to see pokermachines powered down between
midnight and 10 am.
So we're disappointed thatrecommendation hasn't come
through.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What's the amount of gambling that gets done?
In that I mean after I've goneto bed.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Look, we don't know exactly, or that information is
not yet published, but what wedo know is this Nobody makes
good decisions after midnightNobody, nothing good happens in
a poker machine venue at 3o'clock in the morning.
Let's be honest, and certainlysurveys and research shows that
those who are at significantlyhigher risk of gambling harm are
(06:42):
the ones who are in thosevenues in the early hours, and
so we think that a sensible andproportionate reform is to power
down the machines betweenmidnight and 10am.
Now there are some venuesacross New South Wales that are
only closed down for two orthree hours a day.
They close down at 6am andthey're up and open again at 9
or 10am in the morning.
We think that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Okay, what's this top-up thing you were talking
about?
Because I mean you say, and Isaid in my introduction, it's
almost cashless gambling.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
What's the almost there?
Well, the recommendation is toallow people to top up their
card.
They have a card.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So everyone you've got a card Say I put $1,000 on
my card or $500 on my card.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So you can load that up, you can top that up and with
limits to be determined, and Ican keep doing that.
Yeah, I can keep puttinganother $500, and another $500?
.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Exactly so I could still launder money through my
card.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It would make it harder, there's no question
about that, depending on howmuch you're able to load up and
the argument being here that youknow, for people who are from
overseas or in a state who justwant to have a, you know, have a
flutter on the machines whilethey're in New South Wales, this
allows for them to be able todo that.
We think that there are otherways of dealing with those
(08:01):
particular issues.
We think a card that's directlylinked to a bank account.
You're able then to be able totransfer.
That has limits around thatdaily load-up limits, monthly
load-up limits, yearly load-uplimits as was recommended by the
New South Wales government intheir implementation of cashless
(08:23):
technology.
It's happening in Victoria.
This reform will happen.
You and I both know that oureconomy is increasingly going
cashless.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, I mean, we had a pre-conversation yesterday on
the phone and I think we bothtalked about the fact that we
hardly carry money anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I've got a $50 note in my wallet that I haven't
touched for about six months.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, I know, yeah, and so it's going to have to go
cashless.
I mean, even if the governmentdidn't want to do it, the
reality is it must go there thatway.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Well, I mean the silly thing is that the
technology is being used inCrown Casino in Melbourne Now,
when it was voluntary.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
People won't sign up for a voluntary scheme and, if
anything, the trial showed thatIf you have a voluntary scheme,
I've got here a little videoclip I'm going to play it to you
from the news from last weekwhen I think Channel 7 has
actually bought the pubs andclubs line.
Let's watch this 30 seconds andthen we'll dig into that issue.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
The state government's controversial trial
of cashless poker machines hasbeen exposed as an expensive
waste of time.
The final report was deliveredtoday, revealing more than $3
million was spent, but only 14gamblers bothered to stick with
it.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
The government's punt on cashless gaming has turned
out to be no jackpot win.
During a six-month trial, adigital wallet was introduced
for pokies in 14 clubs andhotels across the state, but
today the final report revealedit was an expensive loss.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
The take-up rates were very disappointing.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
OK, stuart, that's Channel 7's report and let's
just pick up on a couple ofthose clauses.
An expensive waste of time.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, look, pubs and clubs were the venues in which
this trial obviously was hostedand effectively were responsible
for signing up participants.
They didn't really exactly havea lot of motivation to do so.
I mean, they participated inthe whole exercise, as we did,
in good faith.
But what the experience here inNew South Wales showed, what
(10:35):
experience in other states haveshown, when you have a voluntary
scheme where people sign up forthis technology voluntarily,
they won't do it.
It's been happening in Victoriafor years.
But when it's mandatory, whenthe only way that people are
able to use poker machines or,in Crown Casino's case, casino
games, then they will sign up.
(10:55):
So, for example, in Victoria,crown Casino for some time had a
voluntary scheme.
They were required to keeptheir license because of some
bad behavior in the past to havea mandatory cashless gambling
system.
Within the space of around ayear, 400,000 people signed up.
So it's really about themotivation.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It's demonstrated that it can work, oh 100%.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
The technology's there, it's been proven, it's in
the field, and so the narrativeof the pubs and clubs industry
is that it won't work.
Of course it will work, it isactually working, and it's
really about seeing thegovernment and our political
leaders having the politicalwill and courage to enact a
reform that will protecthundreds of thousands, if not
(11:41):
more than a million, new SouthWales residents.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well let's just come back to the government, or
Labor's position.
You've had the strong positionfrom the right, from Dominic
Perrottet, a strong positionfrom the far left in the Greens,
and the government caught inthe middle.
They went to the last electionwith the weakest policy on this
issue.
What do you think they're goingto do?
(12:05):
I mean, they're kind of hidingunder the blankets at the moment
.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, you know, look.
I mean we've worked reallyclosely with Minister Harris'
office, who's the currentMinister for Gaming and Racing,
and Minister Harris himself hasspoken publicly about his own
lived experience of gamblingharm in his family.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
In that he's got relatives who've yeah, indeed
yeah, who've experiencedgambling?
Harm Messed up lives.
Yeah, yeah, so he actuallywants to see reform.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
We believe he does.
We think he's operating in goodfaith.
He's one voice within Cabinet,so we want to make sure that
that voice is strengthened.
And other reform.
There's no question.
Within all parties and we'reseeing this federally as well,
in Labor, at a national levelthere are those who are saying
we need to do something aboutsports betting advertising, for
(12:53):
example.
We want to make sure that thevoices on the left and on the
right are strengthened so thatothers who might be wavering
within their ranks come on boardas well.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Do you think the government would be regretting
not taking?
I mean, I thought it would havebeen awesome last election.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It was an amazing opportunity to have bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
If the left, the right, the far left, all had
said let's go with the samepolicy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
We have all of the crossbench, so Helen Dalton and
Kate Fairman, and you have AlexGreenwich, as you say, all of
that crossbench which tendstowards the progressive side of
politics, all on board.
You had a great section of LNPon board, coming in behind
Dominic Perrottet.
There was an amazingopportunity, a moment in time
(13:43):
where we could have had enacteda reform that would have been
perhaps the most significantsocial reform in New South Wales
for some decades.
That moment was missed, butthat moment hasn't passed and
that's why it's incumbent uponthose of us who are believers to
be praying and working towardsthat end.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So right now the government's.
Well, the report has been madepublic but you haven't yet heard
what the government is going todo.
But really the pressure is onthe government.
If the Crime Commission said it, now your new report has said
it.
The Crime Commission said it.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Now your new report has said it 82%, or 72%, of New
South Wales residents are sayingthey have no issue with the
introduction of a mandatorycashless gambling card.
So the community is on board aswell.
And, of course, thegovernment's own research shows
that up to 1.7 million New SouthWales residents are at risk or
(14:32):
have been impacted by gamblingharm, either theirs or someone
they know.
This is an issue that touchesevery demographic and every
postcode in our state.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But particularly the lower socioeconomic postcodes.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So there are pubs in, for example, fairfield LGA yeah
, postcodes.
So there are pubs in, forexample, fairfield LGA, one of
their poorer LGAs, where pubswho have 26% of New South Wales
poker machines but make 44% ofthe profits.
There are pubs in the poorestpostcodes who, on their 30
machines, are making north of$10 million a year in profits on
(15:09):
their 30 machines, $300,000 to$400,000 per machine, $1,000 a
day per machine.
So they are staggering figures.
And so this is, at essence.
This is an economic fight, thisis a social reform fight, but
this is a spiritual battle,because this is a battle with
mammon and with principalitiesand powers, because when you
(15:32):
have such significant profitshere in New South Wales $8.1
billion lost on poker machinesevery single year, $1,000 for
every man, woman and child inthe state then those who are
benefiting from those profitseastern suburbs, pub barons and
others they're going to doeverything they can to protect
it, and that's why we need to bepraying into this.
(15:53):
We need to be with wisdom, wiseas serpents, gentle as doves.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
We need to be engaging in the political
conversation as well Is thesense that I mean when you talk
about that much profit per day.
There's obviously anextraordinary amount of money
being washed through the pokermachines.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Well, the Crime Commission found that they can't
quantify exactly how much.
So we don't know how much,hundreds of millions, of
billions.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We don't know how much is the percentage, that is,
if you like the problem gamblerand how much is dirty money.
We don't know that percentage.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
No, no, look, we know that a significant proportion
of poker machine profits comesfrom those who are experiencing
gambling harm, that asignificant proportion of poker
machine profits comes from thosewho are experiencing gambling
harm.
There was a Central QueenslandUniversity study released
earlier this year and theaverage poker machine punter in
Australia I think it was around$3,500 or $4,500 a year, because
(16:47):
only 18% of New South Walesresidents actually play the
poker.
So if you think you know, justmultiply that by $5,000, you're
looking $4,000 or $5,000 onaverage is being lost by a poker
machine player.
Now there'd be plenty that wouldbe much higher.
Some would be much lower thanthat.
(17:09):
So people who are losing tensof thousands of dollars, if not
not more, and we see thistragically playing out in
criminal cases again and again.
Again it's talking to a friendwho was a chaplain in one of our
prisons and he said to me timeand time again he's having
conversations with prisoners whoturned to crime to feed a
(17:30):
gambling addiction.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's having a profound impact on families and
individuals, assuming I go intopolitics because I want to do
the community good?
Why, when the argument is sostrong, is the government still?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
not biting the bullet or being dragged, kicking and
screaming.
Yeah, I mean my predecessor,alan Walker.
Back in the 1950s, a great manof God, a prophetic voice here
in Australia, when the thenLabor government was looking at
introducing poke machines,warned what would happen, what
this would mean for the stateand, tragically, his prediction,
(18:13):
his prophetic insight, provedto be true.
Because very soon after that,clubs first and then pubs.
In the 1990s again, it was aLabor government under Bob Carr
who allowed pubs, who weresaying we're so poor and the
clubs are so wealthy and we needto have these machines as well,
and we need to have thesemachines as well.
(18:38):
They have captured theconversation and they have had
politicians running, scared eversince of ever making any
adjustments to that, becausewhere money is, inevitably there
is power, and that power hasbeen brought to bear.
Clubs New South Wales for many,many years adopted the tactics
of the National RifleAssociation in America.
In other words, you attack.
(18:59):
The best form of defence isattack, and so when Julia
Gillard a number of years agowas going to enact reforms, they
came out on the attack andpoliticians watched that and
they get very nervous aboutmaking any change.
That's why bipartisan support isso crucial.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Let's just go to the federal sphere for a minute and
sports betting.
And I mean, as somebody whodoesn't go to the poker machines
at one level it doesn't affectme, but it totally affects me
that every ad break there isevery is every.
Every ad break.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There is a sports betting ad yeah, I mean over
north of quarter of a milliondollars is spent on sports
betting advertising in australia.
I mean it's a staggering and Ijust think little that I.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I know I'm not about to go gambling.
I know I'm not about to gogambling like that, but I just
think that little drip, drip,drip, drip of every ad break,
every ad break all year, must bechanged.
I mean, the hope is for thosepeople that it would change
people's lives and more peoplewould become gambling addicts.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And look, it's the normalisation Dominic you speak
of, because if you see iteverywhere on bus sides, on
television, on social media andit's targeting a particular
cohort, if you notice, if yourlisteners notice, it's targeting
in particular young men.
Bet with your mates is one ofthe slogans, and so we're seeing
(20:28):
in our services we providegambling, counselling services
and other services that touch onaddiction.
We're seeing increasingly youngmen who are caught up in this,
Even while they're in highschool.
We've got one young bloke whostarted punting when he was 15
and developed an addictionbefore he was even legally
allowed to bet.
And that's happening in ourprivate schools and our public
schools, and you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So it was a profound failure the other day that when
they rammed through 30 pieces oflegislation in the last five
hours of the parliament sittingfor the year, they couldn't do
this one.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, I think that proved, Dominic, where there's a
will, there's a way, yeah, butthere has.
There's a will, there's a way,yeah, but there has to be a will
and there's not a will.
On this, it seems like peoplelike Peter Volandes who has the
year of the Prime Minister, it'sreported are able to sow enough
.
Head of racing, head of rugbyleague yeah, exactly, and it is
(21:21):
the combination of the gamblingcompanies themselves.
It's the sporting codes thatbecome reliant on that revenue,
because for every bet that youplace on the NRL or the AFL, the
sporting codes themselves get acut of it.
You know somewhere AFLsomewhere around $40 million
that's before sponsorship.
(21:41):
So they're in on it as well.
And then so you've got thegambling companies, you have the
sporting codes, and then youhave the media channels,
particularly legacy media, whoare reliant on gambling
companies for advertisingrevenue.
They have three very powerfulvoices who are constantly
walking the corridors inParliament House in Canberra
(22:05):
just making the case for holdingthe line and doing nothing when
it comes to the Murphy inquiryrecommendations, most
particularly bringing in a fullban of sports betting
advertising.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
My friend Sandy Grant used the words gutless and
spineless.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, I think that's not out of order at all.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Why do you think the government was prepared to be
tough?
On the social media and liftthe age of social media use from
13 to 16?
I mean because at one level, Imean you listed all those
powerful people the rugby league, the AFL, the betting companies
, the whole gamut there.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
But you do think Google and YouTube and Facebook
are powerful as well, so theyweren't gutless there, whereas
they are gutless here I'mreading Jonathan Haidt's book on
the anxious generation, so Ihave some sympathy, some empathy
for the government's move there.
I'm not quite sure about theexecution, but it's inconsistent
.
It borders on you could arguehypocrisy to say, well, we need
(23:09):
to protect kids over here, butover here not so much.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
These other vulnerable people.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, and a lot of them are kids.
Dominic, if you talk tochaplains in our Anglican
schools or Catholic schools orin our Christian schools,
they'll tell you there are kidswho know more about sports
betting as they do about therules of the game.
We have normalised betting withsport.
(23:35):
I'm a sports addict.
I love it.
I love my sport, but we areruining it for the younger
generation.
We are saying you can't watch agame of elite sport without
knowing the odds.
That is poor form.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Explain to me the psychology of what's going on
with me betting on my phone.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, it's the same with poker machines.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Because there's the link, there isn't there.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
There is absolutely a link.
It's about….
The dopamine hit yeah it's theavailability and the speed.
So if you're on a poker machine, you can spin the wheels, so to
speak.
You can press the buttons everytwo to three seconds, so you
can just be….
It might be just $1 bet but youdo that every two or three
(24:23):
seconds.
It quickly clocks up.
Remembering that these machinesyou never win.
You never, ever win.
On the poker machines, they areprogrammed to ensure that you
lose.
Similarly with sports betting.
I mean, you can bet in-game.
There are multitudes of waysyou can bet, and so they're
always introducing options andproducts.
(24:44):
So it's not like back in theday before sports betting online
sports betting you'd walk intoa TAB and place a bet, wait for
the race to happen, then walkout.
Now, of course, you can bet onall sorts of sporting codes
elite or otherwise, and you canbet in multitudes of ways and
it's all just tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.
(25:06):
So there's no friction.
You're not passing your moneyover the counter.
There's no friction, there'sfrequency and there's a
prevalence of opportunity foryou to be able to do so.
It's the dopamine hits thatconnect both poker machine
addiction and sports bettingaddiction as well.
Fifty-seven percent of gamblingharm in Australia is a result
(25:28):
of poker machines, but a closesecond is sports betting and
online betting.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I'm just thinking to do it so easily.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
yeah, you can be lying in bed at 3 o'clock in the
morning betting on a soccergame in the UK in the third
division, yeah, in League 1 orLeague 2.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, when my defences are down, I'm not
thinking my best.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
It's like going into that poker machine venue at 3
o'clock in the morning.
So we live in this 24-7 cycle,this globalised cycle, and
there's so much to be thankfulfor.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So where's this debate going to go?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Well, I think where I believe it's going to go is
that we're going to get asensible proportion reform.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I mean it must get wound back, because every single
ad every single, yeah, I mean.
It's an avalanche of ads.
It's an avalanche Anyright-thinking person is going
to say this is too much.
It's an avalanche of ads.
It's any right-thinking personwho's going to say this is too
much.
It's being stuffed down mythroat, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And similarly what's happened with the social media
ban and the conversation aroundthat, as you alluded to before.
Parents are jumping up and downwhen it comes to sports betting
advertising.
Yeah, They've had a gutful theAFL and their own fan survey.
Overwhelmingly, AFL supportersare saying we don't want
gambling advertising.
(26:46):
We don't want gamblingassociated with our sport, so
it's going to be a groundswellof people that in the end, will
be a voice.
Governments and sporting codeswon't be able to.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean you and I, I think we're at the same age and
so we both remember smokingadvertisements when we were kids
and the phasing out of smokingadvertisements.
I mean we're actually watching,in a sense, the same forces
replaying.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It's the same playbook, yeah because then, you
know, the sporting codes, themedia companies, the tobacco
companies all screamed we'll beruined hand-in-hand.
You know we're not going tosurvive all of this.
Well, I watched Australia, youknow, beat India in the cricket
on the weekend.
The game is in robust health.
(27:32):
You know we still have ourlegacy media.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And the footy's not called the Winfield Cup anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No, no no, we don't have Benson and Hedges tests
anymore, and so on it goes.
So, look, we don't have Bensonand Hedges tests anymore, and so
on it goes.
So, look, the market willadjust.
The market will find a way ofmeeting those gaps.
But what will be different iswe'll see far less addiction,
we'll see far less harm, we'llsee far less suicidal ideation,
(28:00):
domestic and family violence,all the things that are
associated with gambling harm.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Why don't you lead in prayer for some of these
vulnerable in our community aswe finish?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, thank you so loving and gracious God.
We want to thank you.
We want to thank you for theopportunity and privilege we
have of standing alongside thosewho have no voice and helping
them find a voice to speak upfor justice.
Lord, we pray particularly forthose today who are struggling
with shame and with guiltbecause of their addictive
(28:33):
behaviours and the impact that'shad on them and had on those
whom they love.
Lord, we pray that you wouldlead them to a place of
confession and repentance andnew life, new life in Christ
that you offer them.
Lord.
God, we pray that you would drawaround those who suffer with
(28:54):
addiction right now, whetherit's gambling addiction, alcohol
addiction, drug addiction,whatever it might be, lord, that
you would tear down the idolsthat are destroying their lives
and that you would bring freedomand liberty.
In Jesus' name, lord, we praythat, as your church, you would
help us to minister to those whoare hurting, those who are
(29:16):
living under the yoke ofoppression.
That you would help us andempower us to speak out
prophetically against theprincipalities and powers that
would look to enslave andenchain.
Lord, god, we pray forpoliticians who have stepped up
and stepped out and boldlyspoken for reform.
(29:40):
We pray that you would raiseother women and men who would
stand alongside them and speakfor justice.
We pray all of this in themighty powerful name of Jesus,
our Saviour and our Lord, amen.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Amen.
Stu Cameron has been my gueston the Pastor's Heart.
He is the Senior Minister ofWesley Central Mission in the
centre of Sydney and, of course,wesley Mission long, long
history in being deeply involvedin supporting and caring for
underprivileged and well peoplestruggling with addiction.
My name is Dominic Steele andyou've been with us on the
(30:14):
Pastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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