June 10, 2025 • 39 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today autism spectrumdisorder and attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder inChristian leadership.
Lindy Hedges and Kirk Patstonare with us.
It has become a major issue.
More people are being diagnosedas neurodiverse and there's a
sense that theological collegesattract a being diagnosed as
neurodiverse and there's a sensethat theological colleges
attract a higher percentage ofneurodiverse than the general
(00:29):
community.
Can one be godly gifted andhardworking but not suited to
high-trust relational ministryif one cannot perceive or
respond well to emotionalsignals?
Can one thrive in theologicalcollege and then flounder in
ministry, and how does it impactone's ability to serve in
Christian ministry as avolunteer or paid at all sorts
(00:53):
of different levels?
What expectations docongregations rightly have of
their ministers in this space?
Lindy Hedges is director of theADHD Foundation.
She's in private clinicalpractice in this area, and Kirk
Patston lectures in OldTestament Preaching and Pastoral
Ministry at Sydney Missionaryand Bible College and has a PhD
(01:16):
in Disability Theology.
Kirk, I wonder if we couldstart with you and your pastor's
heart, and I'm thinking aboutthe pastor's heart for the
neurodivergent, but specificallywith the neurodivergent who
have a heart for Christianministry, because I think it is
the sense that theneurodivergent population is
(01:38):
overrepresented in theologicalcolleges.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, so I don't know the statistics on that, but I…
your gut feel is yes.
Yes, yes, I can understand thatimpression, why that would be
the case.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, what's your pastor's heart, then, for these
students and graduates?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, I think of variety as a gift from God and I
think of the way that oftenpeople who are neurodivergent
will raise questions about ourassumptions.
They'll implicitly challengethings.
(02:16):
So I'm curious.
I want to be open to thepossibilities.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And you've had a deep interest in this space for a
long time.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I have yes, tell us about that.
Yes, so a background in speechpathology, and then I'm also the
father of a man with autism andintellectual disability, so in
a sense, I've lived with this,yeah, for 28 years.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Lindy, there was a conversation that we had a few
weeks ago where you saidtheological colleges have a
higher percentage of theneurodiverse and I must confess
I hadn't actually thought aboutthat until you said it.
Do you just want to unpack thatfor us?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yes, I should have looked up the stats before I
came.
That would have been a goodidea, right.
But I think the academicexcellence that is experienced
in theological college isattractive to the ASD brain,
which is so brilliantly giftedfor analysis, attention to
detail and remembering well, andbeing driven in that sense, and
(03:18):
so you know, a gifting and astrength I see attracts the ASD
community to theological college.
But there's some difficultiesin that as well.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, let's just actually do some definitions.
What do we mean when we sayneurodivergency?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, neurodivergency is growing, but just for the
sake of this conversation, let'stalk about ADHD and ASD as
being the two major, you know,forms of neurodiversity.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And as an anti-acronym, know forms of
neurodiversity and, as ananti-acronym program, can you
explain those acronyms Wellattention deficit, hyperactivity
disorder, you know so.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Adhd sits in the prefrontal cortex, in the
frontal lobe, at the front ofthe brain, and in terms of
strengths, these people thinkoutside their box.
They're incredibly creative,they have really lateral
thinking, which is brilliant ina team in so many ways.
But in terms of some of thedifficulties disorganisation,
forgetfulness, time blindness,hyperactivity versus hyperfocus
(04:22):
impulse control some of thosethings can make life on a
ministry team really difficult.
And in terms of ASD autismspectrum disorder again, they
have great powers for, you know,analysing data and remembering
it and applying it.
But cognitive inflexibility,rigidity, black and white
(04:42):
thinking, dogmatic thinking, canbe things that they struggle
with at the same time.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Kirk, let's talk about flying at theological
college and then floundering inministry.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, I was reflecting on that issue.
I teach at SMBC and SydneyMissionary and Bible College.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
That's an anti-acronym.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And certainly there's academic excellence there where
people are learning Greek andHebrew and you know theologies
of complicated discipline.
But at the same time we'rehaving morning tea together,
we're having lunch together,we're in fellowship groups,
we're going on college missiontogether, we were going on
college mission together.
(05:25):
So perhaps somebody might bescoring well in their formal
academic program.
But to say that they'rethriving, I'm not sure that
they'll thrive in the holisticformation of theological
education if theirneurodivergent issues are, you
(05:46):
know, getting in the way ofthings and I feel like it will
be noticed at theologicalcollege.
So I don't think somebody'sgoing to go through theological
college and then, surprise,surprise, church ministry will
come.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
From my experience, you think, some of the flags
will have appeared as theundergraduates.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can I just ask I'm just thinking about the change
that's happened in Australiasince the advent of HECS and
actually choosing to go totheological college, and whether
it's now attracting a differentkind of candidate, in that I
remember 30 years ago, going totheological college, I wasn't
sure if I had what it took to bea leader in the people of God,
and so I was very thankful forthe two years of ministry
(06:30):
apprenticeship to kind of workout some of my kind of mistakes,
whether or not I was going tooffend people, not offend people
, relational skills, all thatkind of thing.
Whereas I feel now and correctme if I'm wrong the theological
college wants the students.
(06:51):
It's the government pays.
You know they don't want to sayno because we all need students
.
What's your read of that?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, as I think back to my experience I'd been, I'd
had to go through sessionmeetings, presbytery meetings,
before becoming a theologicalstudent.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Because the Christian community was deciding whether
or not they wanted you as apotential minister.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's right Now because I'm at an
interdenominational college.
It's not as though everyonewho's coming to us is heading
down a vocational ministry in aparticular denomination.
So there is that.
It does mean, though, thatpeople self-select now to come
to college.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So that's the issue they self-select now, whereas
before it was so much cheaper togo if you were a denominational
candidate, and so thedenomination actually made a
decision about whether or notthey wanted you right at the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's right, and so some of that sifting, assessing
and now falls to the theologicalcolleges.
Perhaps in first year, lindy.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
I agree completely that there'sbeen a shift in the boundaries
and perhaps some of the barriersthat were there previously were
actually helpful barriers inthat sifting process.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
They weren't stated barriers really.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
No, they weren't, they were implicit rather than
explicit, weren't they, but theywere helpful, I think.
And with governmentssubsidising theological degrees
and self-selection, perhaps someof those barriers are.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
You can get to all the way to the end of
theological college and thegovernment's kept paying your
hex for you.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
And theological colleges are businesses, which
is fair.
They want students to come.
They need students to come tostay afloat.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And so maybe that means I don't say the hard thing
earlier in the degree.
I'm not accusing thetheological college of that, but
I'm imagining there'd be atemptation to.
We need every student we canget.
We don't want to discourageevery student.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yes, exactly, and so maybe if they started having
those conversations, they couldlose 15% of their student cohort
and also, you actually don'twant to discriminate on the
basis that somebody's on theautistic spectrum.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So it's the wisdom in the early conversations to say,
well, what does God have instore for you?
Who are you?
What do you bring to the peopleof God?
Where is your place?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And what I'd like to see at that point is that a
theological college iscourageous and brave and has
that conversation and sends thatperson off for early
counselling, to attend to it, towork it out.
Let's deal with that in firstyear, not in fourth year when
$100,000 has been spent already.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What are the pain points, Lindy, when somebody
gets appointed either as anassistant on a team or as a
senior leader and we're unaware?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Look, it can be incredibly costly.
I've seen churches come to thepoint of kind of deconstruction
when that happens and we reallywant to avoid that from
happening.
You know, if you've got asenior minister that can't pick
up the nuance of hiscongregation, then he's required
to be a teacher and a shepherd,right.
But if he has ASD and he's justnot reading conversations the
(10:06):
right way, he's saying things ina really blunt, inflexible
manner to his congregation andhe's inadvertently I'm sure he
doesn't want to offending personafter person and it's causing
disruption.
Or if you've got a seniorminister that's an ADHD carrier
and he's disorganized, runninglate, dropping balls here and
(10:27):
there because he's just got toomuch on his plate and he's not
aware, again, he can run hisstaff team absolutely ragged.
They can end up picking up theballs he's dropping.
So I really agree with Kirktransparency, openness, having
the dialogue.
It's really important to knowyour strengths and weaknesses as
an adult, right, and if you'recarrying adhd or asd, it's so
(10:49):
important to be having theconversation.
And I think if you're on astaff team, naming it and being
open and transparent.
I know that might be hard, butI think it's important if a
staff team is going to to thriveand flourish with a senior
pastor with either ADHD or ASD.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay, let's take on some different personas here.
I'm a senior minister and I'veemployed somebody and I'm
suspicious that they might haveundiagnosed being on the
spectrum.
What's your advice to me inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Really hard right.
So we just have to acknowledgethat that's a really hard
situation to be put in, thatyou're the one that has to have
the conversation.
But I think, as Christians,it's really important that we're
not people of avoidance, we'repeople of love, and clearly it's
loving to have thatconversation with someone to say
, hey look, has anyone ever saidanything to you about this?
I'm just wondering you know,using that gentle pensive,
(11:46):
obviously you wouldn't do it ina confronting, adversarial way.
It'd be like I've noticed this.
Have you ever thought aboutthis?
How would you feel about goingand having some testing or
having some conversation withsomeone else who knows more
about this than I do, so that wecan be aware as a team and
manage this on the front foot,rather than being on the back
(12:07):
foot and having to pick up thepieces afterwards?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
What are the signs that might cause me to want to
have that conversation withsomeone?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, I guess with ASD watching that someone's
really struggling to read theroom and saying things in the
wrong time or in reallyun-nuanced ways, offending
people regularly.
Perhaps with their doctrinethey're incredibly rigid or
inflexible.
You may also see they've gotthose incredible kind of
(12:39):
analysis qualities at the sametime.
Or people in your congregationare coming to you and saying,
wow, this person said this andthis to me and I was so
uncomfortable.
Yeah, what's going on If you'regetting a number of
congregation members reportingthis to you and you're feeling
it in your gut as well, or withan ADHD staff member that
(13:02):
they're running late, droppingballs, disorganised,
hyper-focusing on one tiny partof ministry, or that maybe
they're just floundering allover the place and people are
reporting that they're pickingup the pieces for them and
you're feeling something.
You know when the picturesstudy the puzzles, jigsaw puzzle
pieces are coming together andyou're thinking, hmm, maybe
(13:23):
there's something else going onhere rather than just normal
garden variety behaviours.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Kirk, I'm just imagining, as Lindy's speaking
there, that you're thinking, oh,I can think of some graduates
who've gone through thosedifficult conversations.
Do you want to weigh in?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, what's on my mind?
Actually, there's a fellowcalled Lamar Hardwick from
America who at 36 was diagnosedas being on the autistic
spectrum and he said, as hereflected on that he had to come
to the point of being braveenough to say all these little
bits of feedback I've got overthe years that I've denied,
(14:02):
pushed back against.
That everybody can't be wrong,and it's lovely to read him and
to hear him because he talksabout.
I've got a facial expressionthat's not warm.
I come across as arrogant.
I don't make small talk when Iwalk through a room and people
feel like I've ignored them.
(14:23):
I miss nuance in things and thefact that he, as a person on
the spectrum, says that they'rerealities, and then he
identifies two years ofcounselling with him and his
wife to work on strategies, andso it's quite marvellous to
think he's naming these are myweaknesses, but then these are
(14:46):
the strengths that I bring assomebody on the autistic
spectrum.
Put him in a team setting wherethere's honesty about that, but
how wonderful that at 36 thelight went on.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, now I just asked you to think about if I
was the senior minister dealingwith a team member.
Now talk to me about a teammember thinking about a senior
minister and you've beenemployed by this guy and you're
thinking oh, I'm just go for it,lindy.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, I just think that's one step harder, isn't it
?
Because of the positional power.
Perhaps, as an assistantminister, I guess he's going to
have to have some sensitiveconversations with some other
staff members, or perhaps speakto someone outside of the church
who's a safe and trusted youknow pastor and raise some of
those concerns.
Speak to someone outside of thechurch who's a safe and trusted
pastor and raise some of thoseconcerns he could be listening
(15:38):
in.
Is the church having theseconcerns, Just being
observational, about what thesenior minister might actually
be struggling with.
Is it ADHD kind of behaviours?
Is it ASD kind of behaviours?
And then I would guess, astricky as it is, he needs to
take someone with him and go andhave a chat to that senior
pastor, because he could bestopping something far more
(15:59):
serious happening down the road.
And that's a loving thing.
And as long as that's donegently, kindly, with love, no
shame, full acceptance.
But it needs to be raised, notavoided.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Putting your head in the sand is not love in the end
and congregation memberobserving somebody on the staff
team.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I mean the congregation member, I think
does have a reasonableexpectation that the staff
member well, sorry, whether ornot it's reasonable, I think
it's there.
I think the congregation memberexpects the people they pay to
be above averagely gifted inrelational skills.
Kirk.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, or if they're not, to be aware enough of that
and to have strategies in place,whether it's through a team
approach, yes, well, I thinkministry is a privilege.
It's, you know, the character,competence, conviction.
(17:05):
All of that needs to be there.
And I think, around this issue,if we could, just if we can get
to a place of no shame, and Ithink, in this issue, if we can
get to a place of no shame, andI think in a way, 2015, years
ago, we would have been havingthis awkward conversation about,
I think, my senior minister'sdepressed and that that would
(17:26):
have been a great cause of shame.
I think that's much morenormalised now.
And, similarly, if we're goingfor the neurodiversity language
to say well, actually part ofbeing human is that some of us
have these sort of frontal lobes, some of us have these kind of
social linguistic awarenesspatterns, and so there's not a
(17:49):
shame to name it so that we canactually walk into those
conversations.
That's, culturally, where weneed to be getting to, because I
think you're right, it's an actof love both ways, like we
honour people who areneurodivergent by treating them
as true dialogue partners, and,in fact, the fear of raising it
(18:13):
is actually, indirectly, yetanother way of othering the
person who's different, ratherthan giving them the dignity of
mutuality and dialogue so, lindy, lots of staff teams watch the
pastor's hut in groups um if youjust imagine you've got a group
listening to us now you.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You're the counsellor .
What do you want to say to usto do?
How do you want to guide us inhaving this conversation?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, gee, great question.
Well, if you suspect thatsomeone is carrying ADHD or ASD
on the team, whether they're thesenior pastor, assistant, youth
, family pastor, housing any ofthose positions, I think is to
pray about it.
Pray with someone else and takesomeone with you and have that
(18:58):
conversation with them.
Don't avoid it, don't put itoff.
You're protecting them, you'reprotecting the staff team,
you're protecting the church andit's building into them in the
church by creating a space whereyou can have that conversation
and be real and honest and open.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
And without it we're just going to have conflict
after conflict on the staff team.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Absolutely, and I have very sadly it pains me to
say it I've seen staff teams andchurches break down
significantly.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean, you used some very strong language a few
minutes ago about churchesimploding.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Do you want to just?
unpack that for us, yes, Well,I've sat with a number of
churches over the years wherethe senior ministers had
undiagnosed ADHD or ASD and itjust plays out in the staff team
and that leaks into thecongregation and people just get
hurt and no one reallyunderstands what's going on or
(19:54):
what's happening.
It's all hidden, it's all inthe dark, there's no
understanding, there's nodialogue.
But when I work with people inministry and they are
neurodiverse, I like to takethem to the position where one
day they can actually say saythey're in a staff meeting and
they do something that's notquite right, it's a little bit
off.
I'd love them to be able to say, okay, hold on a minute, and
they do something that's notquite right, it's a little bit
(20:15):
off.
I'd love them to be able to say, okay, hold on a minute, guys,
my bad, can I just hit the resetbutton?
That was my ADHD playing upthere.
Just let me take a breath andgo again, or you know, or, to be
humorous, I was just having amoment, everyone.
Just let me take a break andthink that through and say it
again.
We want them to be so aware ofit that they can catch it
themselves and there's enoughsafety in the staff team to
(20:36):
actually talk about it and ownit and take responsibility.
That's what we ultimately want.
We don't want the staff team orthe congregation taking
responsibility and carrying theneurodiversity support, yes, but
not rescuing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Right.
Can you tell me I mean, thatsounds really attractive, what
you've just said have youactually seen that happen
successfully?
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I've seen churches where it hasn't happened and
it's ended badly, and I've seenmen work really hard on owning
their neurodiversity and workingwith it.
And you know it's a process,it's a journey, right, it's not
an easy thing to do, to come outand say this is who I am, this
is what I'm living with and thisis how it's going to impact me,
the staff team and thecongregation.
(21:24):
Can we work together?
But it can happen.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You just used language a moment ago of you've
seen churches and I think yousaid it's a good thing to
support each other but not carryeach other.
Did I say that?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Not rescue, not rescue, not rescue Carrying for
a time, so support is okay, butwhen your staff team or your
congregation is carrying thelion's share of the burden for
your neurodiversity, then that'sshifted into a place that's not
okay.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And so for some people we've actually got to say
Christian ministry is not thefuture for you.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
That's really sad, but I imagine that in some
scenarios the loving thing to dofor that person, for the staff
team and the congregation, is tosay there either needs to be a
period where they step down andgo and get a lot of support and
counselling and neurodiversitykind of coaching, or we say
actually it's not going to workfor them because of the severity
(22:22):
of the neurodiversity thatthey're carrying.
It's just going to keep hittingup against it all the time,
which is painful for everyoneinvolved.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
What are you reflecting on there, kirk?
Because I'm kind of thinking ohyou theological college
lecturers, if you had some ofthose harder conversations, it
would make it easier for me.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yes, well, I agree and I actually think we do Good.
So, yes, I agree, and I thinkwe've got to realise that this
conversation that we're havingactually applies across so many
areas, doesn't it?
I know we've noticed howarrogant you are.
(22:58):
We've noticed, not to say thatthat's a neurodivergent thing.
So I'm saying we've noticedthat you're prone to gambling.
We've noticed that you're veryimage conscious.
So, if we can be vulnerableabout all the strange ways that
we're human and to putneurodiversity out there, this
(23:21):
is another little element ofbeing human.
Some of us are prone to this,some of us are prone to that,
and all of us then need to beheld to account.
We need that dignity and,because of the responsibility of
leadership, we need to honourthat.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, I think we fall and I'm looking for you to
correct me on this, but I thinkwe fall too much on the
avoidance scale, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I think as Christians we really struggle.
We think that accountability orthose challenging conversations
are judgmental, but I don'tthink so.
Sometimes I think what happensis we're actually de-skilled in
how to have a difficultconversation in love and so we
go oh too hard basket.
I'm just going to avoid that,I'm not going to do that, and
the situation just grows andgrows and floods and leaks and
(24:11):
avoidance happens and no one isloved or helped.
So sometimes it might be, maybeif you're in that situation,
you might need to go and see anADHD or ASD counsellor and say I
need to have this conversation,help me.
How would I do that withsomeone?
So you actually you'restrengthening yourself, so you
don't avoid that situationyou're strengthening yourself so
(24:35):
you don't avoid that situation?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, I wonder too, just theologically in the
background we've got Leviticus21 with the blemished priest
being excluded in some way.
If you do historically readingof that, if you read that
historically people have usedLeviticus 21 as a reason to bar
(24:58):
people from ministry ordinationin the past and I just wonder if
that haunts us a bit, so thatsomebody who's going for
ordination feels that they can'treveal any blemish lest
Leviticus 21 is brought out.
So I feel like there's sometheological baggage lurking in
the background of some of thisaround shame yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Mr Lecturer in the Altist.
What's the answer?
You posed a really goodquestion.
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So what's interesting about the Leviticus 21 passage?
Two things.
One is that that priest who isexcluded is, in a way, we could
argue that they self-exclude.
It's not as though thedescendant of Aaron who has this
should not do this, so they'retreated like an agent.
(25:53):
So that's interesting.
They also do participate ineating the holy and the most
holy food, so it's not anabsolute prohibition.
And then a third thing if welook at the reason for a given
in Leviticus is so that youdon't desecrate holy space.
(26:13):
So we need to do work on what isholy space in Leviticus, so
some work that I've actuallysupervised a doctorate on this,
where Josh Reid came up with theidea that what you've got in
sacred space is a symbol ofcreation and new creation, and
the blemished priest makes achoice, as an agent, to exclude
(26:38):
themselves from a, from sacredspace, in order to make a
statement about what creationand new creation will be like.
Now, the lack of blemish in newcreation is a really
interesting thing to ponder, andone area, though, where it
(26:58):
becomes fascinating is that theresurrected body of Jesus still
has scars, that the resurrectedbody of Jesus still has scars.
So what the new creation bodywill be, I think is quite
mysterious, but I thinkLeviticus is saying somehow it's
not blemished and then theresurrection of Jesus is saying
(27:25):
but it might be scarred, Lindy,you were saying to me when we
were talking on the phone acouple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That and I'm coming from the issue of the
theological college isattractive to the neurodivergent
.
But you also said, if you like,the unregulated lifestyle of
ministry the flexible lifestyleof ministry is attractive to the
neurodivergent.
Can you unpack that for me?
I think that existsparticularly with the ADHD mind
(27:51):
and lifestyle, because you canthink the spectrum more
regulated and the ADHD wantingless regulated.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yes, that's right.
The ADHD loves kind of you know, not so much structure, being
able to roam.
They get bored easy andrestless and like to be changing
and doing new things all thetime.
So ministry is a bit of an openfield.
I can do this on Monday, thisTuesday, this Wednesday, this
Thursday, this Friday.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
One moment I'm dealing with a building project,
the next moment helpingsomebody's marriage.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
That's right, Writing a sermon, which can be
challenged with ADHD brain.
But it's all very varied andthey love that and drawn to that
.
But the downfall of that is theability to work with boundaries
and actually say hold on, I'mgoing to work a 40-hour week,
not a 60-hour week, and I seethat with a lot of ADHD men in
ministry, Because ministry isjust an open book right, there's
(28:43):
always more to do you couldwork 80 hours easily.
Who's going to keep you toaccount and say hold on?
Probably your wife and kids,and they'll become very unhappy
very quickly and I've certainlyseen a lot of that.
But just going back to kind ofbiblical answers to this, what
really comes to mind to me isthe good old if your brother
sins against you, go and speakto him, and if he won't hear you
(29:06):
, take another brother, and thenhe won't hear you take it to
the church, and so I figurethat's really our best place
when that is done in love andgraciousness and gentleness and
kindness.
The Bible's quite clear.
I mean sin.
Maybe that feels like a veryblack and white hard word in
that circumstance, but ifsomeone is in a senior leader
(29:28):
position, senior leadershipposition and they're dropping
the ball regularly in terms ofADHD or ASD, then really we need
to have that conversation withthem.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And it probably needs to be a two-way thing too, in
that often the expectations weput around ministry there's, you
know Zach S Wines talks about.
In some ways, ministers feellike they've got to be
omniscient, omnipotent,omnipresent.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know these really idolatrous expectations For
somebody who is neurodivergentto actually in a sense push back
to the church and say, do yourealise the expectations that
are here?
And to realise maybe it's goingto be a neurodivergent person
who says, look, because of myneurodivergent I can't meet all
(30:15):
these expectations.
Actually, the area of growth,is the church reflecting on the
unfairness of the expectationsthat are put up?
So I'm thinking dialogicallyhere, both listening to each
other.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Can you be successfully a senior pastor and
on the autism spectrum or withsignificant ADHD, Kirk with
significant ADHD.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Kirk, I think that's too blunt a question.
Are they self-aware who'ssurrounding them?
How does it manifest?
So I wouldn't answer that in ablack and white way.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Lindy I would say absolutely yes, but agreeing
with Kirk, as long as there'sawareness, insight,
understanding and there has tobe a commitment to managing the
neurodiversity.
There has to be a commitment tostrategies, techniques, open,
transparent, vulnerableconversations and an ongoing
(31:24):
commitment to growing themanagement of the neurodiversity
.
You know, being real and openand committing to that.
I think without that there'sgoing to be trouble ahead for
sure.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I didn't give either of you notice of this, but I'm
just reflecting.
I mean we've talked in thisconversation as if the
expectation is that thetheological college, the nerdy
person, higher percentage, allthat kind of thing.
Do you reckon that's just inour evangelical tribe or would
it be the same in thePentecostal tribe, for example?
(31:57):
I mean it's a question withoutnotice.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
You know, my gut feeling is I wonder in the
Pentecostal training colleges ifthe ADHD person is more
attracted to that because ofhigh levels of energy
spontaneity, yeah impulsivity,yeah, and creativity that's, you
know, that's valued and honoredand appreciated there, so I
could see that that might be anissue there, yeah I think, well,
(32:22):
I'm.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I'm aware of the.
My Myers-Briggs is notparticularly psychologically
robust, but there are studies ofMyers-Briggs personality types
and then… Theological tribe thatyou're drawn to.
Yes, that's right.
And are you more likely to be ayouth worker?
Are you more likely to be achurch planter?
So we all see thosecorrelations, don't we, between
types of people and types oftribes.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
We had a very interesting discussion a couple
of weeks ago about are you morelikely to be, if you like, the
maverick church planter or areyou more likely to be the campus
pastor?
You know, and the differentpersonality type drawn to that.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
But keep going.
Yeah, so I'm just going to saythat I would expect that where
people are on the neurodiversityspectrum is going to impact.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Which theological tribe you're drawn to?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Yes and I think we've probably all seen ministers who
, in terms of their, if they'rea senior pastor, with teaching
and the Good Shepherd together,right that we would think, hmm,
I wonder if he'd be better offlecturing or writing a book, or
you know, here's my questionthere.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Then I mean, yes, I can see that you put that person
in the theological college asthe lecturer, but then does that
mean we're less aware as atheological college of?
I mean, I just remember PhilipJensen 100 years ago saying to
us you want the theologicalcollege lecture to be a
(33:50):
frustrated pastor, you know,because yes, that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And certainly that where at Sydney Missionary and
Bible College there is thatsense of wanting us all to be
frustrated missionaries,frustrated pastors, that's right
.
I'm thinking of some studentsthat I've worked with over the
years, often who've gone intohighly specialised research and
(34:15):
I guess they've found, sometimesthey've found a spot in
languages where perhaps that'sokay, and then I'm aware of a
translation, something like thatMaybe yes, and I'm also aware
of another man who's gone offinto sort of very obscure
(34:37):
historical archaeological kindof tracks and so is pursuing an
academic career that isBible-related but not
ministry-related.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
And that's less demanding than the parish role
where you've got to look afterso many emotional needs and
administration needs of a parishright.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
A last comment for the staff team watching today.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Don't avoid it, deal with it, pray, have that
conversation, get a good teamaround you to have that
conversation and create a safeplace for the person that you're
going to have that conversationwith, so there's no shame,
there is acceptance.
Or you create a safe space forthem to step into, to increase
(35:24):
you know, invitational increasethe acceptance and de-shame so
that they can actually talkabout what's going on.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Kirk, why don't you lead in prayer for the person
who's and the staff team'snavigating this issue?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Sure, our Father, you're a powerful and good and
kind and creative creator, andwe do live in a creation whose
diversity overwhelms us and, aswe live alongside people who
(35:59):
have all kinds of personalities,all sorts of brains, all sorts
of ways of being in the world,we pray for all of us to be
people of love, to be people ofcompassion and insight and
empathy, and we pray for a senseof dignity about accountability
(36:20):
, about responsibility, aboutthe weight of leadership, and so
we pray for the gift of wisdomfor all of us as we navigate
this area.
Lord, we'd love the church tobe a place where diversity,
neurodivergence, all kinds ofdisability find a place of
(36:41):
belonging and contribution in away that speaks of your
hospitable kingdom.
So, lord, please give us thecourage and the wisdom and the
love to do that.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Amen.
Well, lindy Hedges and KirkPatston have been my guests on
the Pastor's Heart today.
Lindy, of course, director ofthe ADHD Foundation and in
private clinical practice inthis area, and Kirk Patston
lectures in Old Testamentpreaching and pastoral ministry
at Sydney Missionary and BibleCollege and has a PhD in
(37:16):
disability theology.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
It's the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele.
And today autism spectrumdisorder and attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder inChristian leadership.
Lindy Hedges and Kirk Patstonare with us.
It has become a major issue.
More people are being diagnosedas neurodiverse and there's a
sense that theological collegesattract a being diagnosed as
neurodiverse and there's a sensethat theological colleges
attract a higher percentage ofneurodiverse than the general
(00:29):
community.
Can one be godly gifted andhardworking but not suited to
high-trust relational ministryif one cannot perceive or
respond well to emotionalsignals?
Can one thrive in theologicalcollege and then flounder in
ministry, and how does it impactone's ability to serve in
Christian ministry as avolunteer or paid at all sorts
(00:53):
of different levels?
What expectations docongregations rightly have of
their ministers in this space?
Lindy Hedges is director of theADHD Foundation.
She's in private clinicalpractice in this area, and Kirk
Patston lectures in OldTestament Preaching and Pastoral
Ministry at Sydney Missionaryand Bible College and has a PhD
(01:16):
in Disability Theology.
Kirk, I wonder if we couldstart with you and your pastor's
heart, and I'm thinking aboutthe pastor's heart for the
neurodivergent, but specificallywith the neurodivergent who
have a heart for Christianministry, because I think it is
the sense that theneurodivergent population is
(01:38):
overrepresented in theologicalcolleges.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, so I don't know the statistics on that, but I…
your gut feel is yes.
Yes, yes, I can understand thatimpression, why that would be
the case.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, what's your pastor's heart, then, for these
students and graduates?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, I think of variety as a gift from God and I
think of the way that oftenpeople who are neurodivergent
will raise questions about ourassumptions.
They'll implicitly challengethings.
(02:16):
So I'm curious.
I want to be open to thepossibilities.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And you've had a deep interest in this space for a
long time.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I have yes, tell us about that.
Yes, so a background in speechpathology, and then I'm also the
father of a man with autism andintellectual disability, so in
a sense, I've lived with this,yeah, for 28 years.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Lindy, there was a conversation that we had a few
weeks ago where you saidtheological colleges have a
higher percentage of theneurodiverse and I must confess
I hadn't actually thought aboutthat until you said it.
Do you just want to unpack thatfor us?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yes, I should have looked up the stats before I
came.
That would have been a goodidea, right.
But I think the academicexcellence that is experienced
in theological college isattractive to the ASD brain,
which is so brilliantly giftedfor analysis, attention to
detail and remembering well, andbeing driven in that sense, and
(03:18):
so you know, a gifting and astrength I see attracts the ASD
community to theological college.
But there's some difficultiesin that as well.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, let's just actually do some definitions.
What do we mean when we sayneurodivergency?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, neurodivergency is growing, but just for the
sake of this conversation, let'stalk about ADHD and ASD as
being the two major, you know,forms of neurodiversity.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And as an anti-acronym, know forms of
neurodiversity and, as ananti-acronym program, can you
explain those acronyms Wellattention deficit, hyperactivity
disorder, you know so.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Adhd sits in the prefrontal cortex, in the
frontal lobe, at the front ofthe brain, and in terms of
strengths, these people thinkoutside their box.
They're incredibly creative,they have really lateral
thinking, which is brilliant ina team in so many ways.
But in terms of some of thedifficulties disorganisation,
forgetfulness, time blindness,hyperactivity versus hyperfocus
(04:22):
impulse control some of thosethings can make life on a
ministry team really difficult.
And in terms of ASD autismspectrum disorder again, they
have great powers for, you know,analysing data and remembering
it and applying it.
But cognitive inflexibility,rigidity, black and white
(04:42):
thinking, dogmatic thinking, canbe things that they struggle
with at the same time.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Kirk, let's talk about flying at theological
college and then floundering inministry.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, I was reflecting on that issue.
I teach at SMBC and SydneyMissionary and Bible College.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
That's an anti-acronym.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And certainly there's academic excellence there where
people are learning Greek andHebrew and you know theologies
of complicated discipline.
But at the same time we'rehaving morning tea together,
we're having lunch together,we're in fellowship groups,
we're going on college missiontogether, we were going on
college mission together.
(05:25):
So perhaps somebody might bescoring well in their formal
academic program.
But to say that they'rethriving, I'm not sure that
they'll thrive in the holisticformation of theological
education if theirneurodivergent issues are, you
(05:46):
know, getting in the way ofthings and I feel like it will
be noticed at theologicalcollege.
So I don't think somebody'sgoing to go through theological
college and then, surprise,surprise, church ministry will
come.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
From my experience, you think, some of the flags
will have appeared as theundergraduates.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can I just ask I'm just thinking about the change
that's happened in Australiasince the advent of HECS and
actually choosing to go totheological college, and whether
it's now attracting a differentkind of candidate, in that I
remember 30 years ago, going totheological college, I wasn't
sure if I had what it took to bea leader in the people of God,
and so I was very thankful forthe two years of ministry
(06:30):
apprenticeship to kind of workout some of my kind of mistakes,
whether or not I was going tooffend people, not offend people
, relational skills, all thatkind of thing.
Whereas I feel now and correctme if I'm wrong the theological
college wants the students.
(06:51):
It's the government pays.
You know they don't want to sayno because we all need students
.
What's your read of that?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, as I think back to my experience I'd been, I'd
had to go through sessionmeetings, presbytery meetings,
before becoming a theologicalstudent.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Because the Christian community was deciding whether
or not they wanted you as apotential minister.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's right Now because I'm at an
interdenominational college.
It's not as though everyonewho's coming to us is heading
down a vocational ministry in aparticular denomination.
So there is that.
It does mean, though, thatpeople self-select now to come
to college.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So that's the issue they self-select now, whereas
before it was so much cheaper togo if you were a denominational
candidate, and so thedenomination actually made a
decision about whether or notthey wanted you right at the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's right, and so some of that sifting, assessing
and now falls to the theologicalcolleges.
Perhaps in first year, lindy.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
I agree completely that there'sbeen a shift in the boundaries
and perhaps some of the barriersthat were there previously were
actually helpful barriers inthat sifting process.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
They weren't stated barriers really.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
No, they weren't, they were implicit rather than
explicit, weren't they, but theywere helpful, I think.
And with governmentssubsidising theological degrees
and self-selection, perhaps someof those barriers are.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
You can get to all the way to the end of
theological college and thegovernment's kept paying your
hex for you.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
And theological colleges are businesses, which
is fair.
They want students to come.
They need students to come tostay afloat.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And so maybe that means I don't say the hard thing
earlier in the degree.
I'm not accusing thetheological college of that, but
I'm imagining there'd be atemptation to.
We need every student we canget.
We don't want to discourageevery student.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yes, exactly, and so maybe if they started having
those conversations, they couldlose 15% of their student cohort
and also, you actually don'twant to discriminate on the
basis that somebody's on theautistic spectrum.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So it's the wisdom in the early conversations to say,
well, what does God have instore for you?
Who are you?
What do you bring to the peopleof God?
Where is your place?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And what I'd like to see at that point is that a
theological college iscourageous and brave and has
that conversation and sends thatperson off for early
counselling, to attend to it, towork it out.
Let's deal with that in firstyear, not in fourth year when
$100,000 has been spent already.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What are the pain points, Lindy, when somebody
gets appointed either as anassistant on a team or as a
senior leader and we're unaware?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Look, it can be incredibly costly.
I've seen churches come to thepoint of kind of deconstruction
when that happens and we reallywant to avoid that from
happening.
You know, if you've got asenior minister that can't pick
up the nuance of hiscongregation, then he's required
to be a teacher and a shepherd,right.
But if he has ASD and he's justnot reading conversations the
(10:06):
right way, he's saying things ina really blunt, inflexible
manner to his congregation andhe's inadvertently I'm sure he
doesn't want to offending personafter person and it's causing
disruption.
Or if you've got a seniorminister that's an ADHD carrier
and he's disorganized, runninglate, dropping balls here and
(10:27):
there because he's just got toomuch on his plate and he's not
aware, again, he can run hisstaff team absolutely ragged.
They can end up picking up theballs he's dropping.
So I really agree with Kirktransparency, openness, having
the dialogue.
It's really important to knowyour strengths and weaknesses as
an adult, right, and if you'recarrying adhd or asd, it's so
(10:49):
important to be having theconversation.
And I think if you're on astaff team, naming it and being
open and transparent.
I know that might be hard, butI think it's important if a
staff team is going to to thriveand flourish with a senior
pastor with either ADHD or ASD.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay, let's take on some different personas here.
I'm a senior minister and I'veemployed somebody and I'm
suspicious that they might haveundiagnosed being on the
spectrum.
What's your advice to me inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Really hard right.
So we just have to acknowledgethat that's a really hard
situation to be put in, thatyou're the one that has to have
the conversation.
But I think, as Christians,it's really important that we're
not people of avoidance, we'repeople of love, and clearly it's
loving to have thatconversation with someone to say
, hey look, has anyone ever saidanything to you about this?
I'm just wondering you know,using that gentle pensive,
(11:46):
obviously you wouldn't do it ina confronting, adversarial way.
It'd be like I've noticed this.
Have you ever thought aboutthis?
How would you feel about goingand having some testing or
having some conversation withsomeone else who knows more
about this than I do, so that wecan be aware as a team and
manage this on the front foot,rather than being on the back
(12:07):
foot and having to pick up thepieces afterwards?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
What are the signs that might cause me to want to
have that conversation withsomeone?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, I guess with ASD watching that someone's
really struggling to read theroom and saying things in the
wrong time or in reallyun-nuanced ways, offending
people regularly.
Perhaps with their doctrinethey're incredibly rigid or
inflexible.
You may also see they've gotthose incredible kind of
(12:39):
analysis qualities at the sametime.
Or people in your congregationare coming to you and saying,
wow, this person said this andthis to me and I was so
uncomfortable.
Yeah, what's going on If you'regetting a number of
congregation members reportingthis to you and you're feeling
it in your gut as well, or withan ADHD staff member that
(13:02):
they're running late, droppingballs, disorganised,
hyper-focusing on one tiny partof ministry, or that maybe
they're just floundering allover the place and people are
reporting that they're pickingup the pieces for them and
you're feeling something.
You know when the picturesstudy the puzzles, jigsaw puzzle
pieces are coming together andyou're thinking, hmm, maybe
(13:23):
there's something else going onhere rather than just normal
garden variety behaviours.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Kirk, I'm just imagining, as Lindy's speaking
there, that you're thinking, oh,I can think of some graduates
who've gone through thosedifficult conversations.
Do you want to weigh in?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, what's on my mind?
Actually, there's a fellowcalled Lamar Hardwick from
America who at 36 was diagnosedas being on the autistic
spectrum and he said, as hereflected on that he had to come
to the point of being braveenough to say all these little
bits of feedback I've got overthe years that I've denied,
(14:02):
pushed back against.
That everybody can't be wrong,and it's lovely to read him and
to hear him because he talksabout.
I've got a facial expressionthat's not warm.
I come across as arrogant.
I don't make small talk when Iwalk through a room and people
feel like I've ignored them.
(14:23):
I miss nuance in things and thefact that he, as a person on
the spectrum, says that they'rerealities, and then he
identifies two years ofcounselling with him and his
wife to work on strategies, andso it's quite marvellous to
think he's naming these are myweaknesses, but then these are
(14:46):
the strengths that I bring assomebody on the autistic
spectrum.
Put him in a team setting wherethere's honesty about that, but
how wonderful that at 36 thelight went on.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, now I just asked you to think about if I
was the senior minister dealingwith a team member.
Now talk to me about a teammember thinking about a senior
minister and you've beenemployed by this guy and you're
thinking oh, I'm just go for it,lindy.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, I just think that's one step harder, isn't it
?
Because of the positional power.
Perhaps, as an assistantminister, I guess he's going to
have to have some sensitiveconversations with some other
staff members, or perhaps speakto someone outside of the church
who's a safe and trusted youknow pastor and raise some of
those concerns.
Speak to someone outside of thechurch who's a safe and trusted
pastor and raise some of thoseconcerns he could be listening
(15:38):
in.
Is the church having theseconcerns, Just being
observational, about what thesenior minister might actually
be struggling with.
Is it ADHD kind of behaviours?
Is it ASD kind of behaviours?
And then I would guess, astricky as it is, he needs to
take someone with him and go andhave a chat to that senior
pastor, because he could bestopping something far more
(15:59):
serious happening down the road.
And that's a loving thing.
And as long as that's donegently, kindly, with love, no
shame, full acceptance.
But it needs to be raised, notavoided.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Putting your head in the sand is not love in the end
and congregation memberobserving somebody on the staff
team.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I mean the congregation member, I think
does have a reasonableexpectation that the staff
member well, sorry, whether ornot it's reasonable, I think
it's there.
I think the congregation memberexpects the people they pay to
be above averagely gifted inrelational skills.
Kirk.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, or if they're not, to be aware enough of that
and to have strategies in place,whether it's through a team
approach, yes, well, I thinkministry is a privilege.
It's, you know, the character,competence, conviction.
(17:05):
All of that needs to be there.
And I think, around this issue,if we could, just if we can get
to a place of no shame, and Ithink, in this issue, if we can
get to a place of no shame, andI think in a way, 2015, years
ago, we would have been havingthis awkward conversation about,
I think, my senior minister'sdepressed and that that would
(17:26):
have been a great cause of shame.
I think that's much morenormalised now.
And, similarly, if we're goingfor the neurodiversity language
to say well, actually part ofbeing human is that some of us
have these sort of frontal lobes, some of us have these kind of
social linguistic awarenesspatterns, and so there's not a
(17:49):
shame to name it so that we canactually walk into those
conversations.
That's, culturally, where weneed to be getting to, because I
think you're right, it's an actof love both ways, like we
honour people who areneurodivergent by treating them
as true dialogue partners, and,in fact, the fear of raising it
(18:13):
is actually, indirectly, yetanother way of othering the
person who's different, ratherthan giving them the dignity of
mutuality and dialogue so, lindy, lots of staff teams watch the
pastor's hut in groups um if youjust imagine you've got a group
listening to us now you.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You're the counsellor .
What do you want to say to usto do?
How do you want to guide us inhaving this conversation?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, gee, great question.
Well, if you suspect thatsomeone is carrying ADHD or ASD
on the team, whether they're thesenior pastor, assistant, youth
, family pastor, housing any ofthose positions, I think is to
pray about it.
Pray with someone else and takesomeone with you and have that
(18:58):
conversation with them.
Don't avoid it, don't put itoff.
You're protecting them, you'reprotecting the staff team,
you're protecting the church andit's building into them in the
church by creating a space whereyou can have that conversation
and be real and honest and open.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
And without it we're just going to have conflict
after conflict on the staff team.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Absolutely, and I have very sadly it pains me to
say it I've seen staff teams andchurches break down
significantly.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean, you used some very strong language a few
minutes ago about churchesimploding.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Do you want to just?
unpack that for us, yes, Well,I've sat with a number of
churches over the years wherethe senior ministers had
undiagnosed ADHD or ASD and itjust plays out in the staff team
and that leaks into thecongregation and people just get
hurt and no one reallyunderstands what's going on or
(19:54):
what's happening.
It's all hidden, it's all inthe dark, there's no
understanding, there's nodialogue.
But when I work with people inministry and they are
neurodiverse, I like to takethem to the position where one
day they can actually say saythey're in a staff meeting and
they do something that's notquite right, it's a little bit
off.
I'd love them to be able to say, okay, hold on a minute, and
they do something that's notquite right, it's a little bit
(20:15):
off.
I'd love them to be able to say, okay, hold on a minute, guys,
my bad, can I just hit the resetbutton?
That was my ADHD playing upthere.
Just let me take a breath andgo again, or you know, or, to be
humorous, I was just having amoment, everyone.
Just let me take a break andthink that through and say it
again.
We want them to be so aware ofit that they can catch it
themselves and there's enoughsafety in the staff team to
(20:36):
actually talk about it and ownit and take responsibility.
That's what we ultimately want.
We don't want the staff team orthe congregation taking
responsibility and carrying theneurodiversity support, yes, but
not rescuing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Right.
Can you tell me I mean, thatsounds really attractive, what
you've just said have youactually seen that happen
successfully?
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I've seen churches where it hasn't happened and
it's ended badly, and I've seenmen work really hard on owning
their neurodiversity and workingwith it.
And you know it's a process,it's a journey, right, it's not
an easy thing to do, to come outand say this is who I am, this
is what I'm living with and thisis how it's going to impact me,
the staff team and thecongregation.
(21:24):
Can we work together?
But it can happen.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You just used language a moment ago of you've
seen churches and I think yousaid it's a good thing to
support each other but not carryeach other.
Did I say that?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Not rescue, not rescue, not rescue Carrying for
a time, so support is okay, butwhen your staff team or your
congregation is carrying thelion's share of the burden for
your neurodiversity, then that'sshifted into a place that's not
okay.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And so for some people we've actually got to say
Christian ministry is not thefuture for you.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
That's really sad, but I imagine that in some
scenarios the loving thing to dofor that person, for the staff
team and the congregation, is tosay there either needs to be a
period where they step down andgo and get a lot of support and
counselling and neurodiversitykind of coaching, or we say
actually it's not going to workfor them because of the severity
(22:22):
of the neurodiversity thatthey're carrying.
It's just going to keep hittingup against it all the time,
which is painful for everyoneinvolved.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
What are you reflecting on there, kirk?
Because I'm kind of thinking ohyou theological college
lecturers, if you had some ofthose harder conversations, it
would make it easier for me.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yes, well, I agree and I actually think we do Good.
So, yes, I agree, and I thinkwe've got to realise that this
conversation that we're havingactually applies across so many
areas, doesn't it?
I know we've noticed howarrogant you are.
(22:58):
We've noticed, not to say thatthat's a neurodivergent thing.
So I'm saying we've noticedthat you're prone to gambling.
We've noticed that you're veryimage conscious.
So, if we can be vulnerableabout all the strange ways that
we're human and to putneurodiversity out there, this
(23:21):
is another little element ofbeing human.
Some of us are prone to this,some of us are prone to that,
and all of us then need to beheld to account.
We need that dignity and,because of the responsibility of
leadership, we need to honourthat.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, I think we fall and I'm looking for you to
correct me on this, but I thinkwe fall too much on the
avoidance scale, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I think as Christians we really struggle.
We think that accountability orthose challenging conversations
are judgmental, but I don'tthink so.
Sometimes I think what happensis we're actually de-skilled in
how to have a difficultconversation in love and so we
go oh too hard basket.
I'm just going to avoid that,I'm not going to do that, and
the situation just grows andgrows and floods and leaks and
(24:11):
avoidance happens and no one isloved or helped.
So sometimes it might be, maybeif you're in that situation,
you might need to go and see anADHD or ASD counsellor and say I
need to have this conversation,help me.
How would I do that withsomeone?
So you actually you'restrengthening yourself, so you
don't avoid that situationyou're strengthening yourself so
(24:35):
you don't avoid that situation?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, I wonder too, just theologically in the
background we've got Leviticus21 with the blemished priest
being excluded in some way.
If you do historically readingof that, if you read that
historically people have usedLeviticus 21 as a reason to bar
(24:58):
people from ministry ordinationin the past and I just wonder if
that haunts us a bit, so thatsomebody who's going for
ordination feels that they can'treveal any blemish lest
Leviticus 21 is brought out.
So I feel like there's sometheological baggage lurking in
the background of some of thisaround shame yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Mr Lecturer in the Altist.
What's the answer?
You posed a really goodquestion.
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So what's interesting about the Leviticus 21 passage?
Two things.
One is that that priest who isexcluded is, in a way, we could
argue that they self-exclude.
It's not as though thedescendant of Aaron who has this
should not do this, so they'retreated like an agent.
(25:53):
So that's interesting.
They also do participate ineating the holy and the most
holy food, so it's not anabsolute prohibition.
And then a third thing if welook at the reason for a given
in Leviticus is so that youdon't desecrate holy space.
(26:13):
So we need to do work on what isholy space in Leviticus, so
some work that I've actuallysupervised a doctorate on this,
where Josh Reid came up with theidea that what you've got in
sacred space is a symbol ofcreation and new creation, and
the blemished priest makes achoice, as an agent, to exclude
(26:38):
themselves from a, from sacredspace, in order to make a
statement about what creationand new creation will be like.
Now, the lack of blemish in newcreation is a really
interesting thing to ponder, andone area, though, where it
(26:58):
becomes fascinating is that theresurrected body of Jesus still
has scars, that the resurrectedbody of Jesus still has scars.
So what the new creation bodywill be, I think is quite
mysterious, but I thinkLeviticus is saying somehow it's
not blemished and then theresurrection of Jesus is saying
(27:25):
but it might be scarred, Lindy,you were saying to me when we
were talking on the phone acouple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That and I'm coming from the issue of the
theological college isattractive to the neurodivergent
.
But you also said, if you like,the unregulated lifestyle of
ministry the flexible lifestyleof ministry is attractive to the
neurodivergent.
Can you unpack that for me?
I think that existsparticularly with the ADHD mind
(27:51):
and lifestyle, because you canthink the spectrum more
regulated and the ADHD wantingless regulated.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yes, that's right.
The ADHD loves kind of you know, not so much structure, being
able to roam.
They get bored easy andrestless and like to be changing
and doing new things all thetime.
So ministry is a bit of an openfield.
I can do this on Monday, thisTuesday, this Wednesday, this
Thursday, this Friday.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
One moment I'm dealing with a building project,
the next moment helpingsomebody's marriage.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
That's right, Writing a sermon, which can be
challenged with ADHD brain.
But it's all very varied andthey love that and drawn to that
.
But the downfall of that is theability to work with boundaries
and actually say hold on, I'mgoing to work a 40-hour week,
not a 60-hour week, and I seethat with a lot of ADHD men in
ministry, Because ministry isjust an open book right, there's
(28:43):
always more to do you couldwork 80 hours easily.
Who's going to keep you toaccount and say hold on?
Probably your wife and kids,and they'll become very unhappy
very quickly and I've certainlyseen a lot of that.
But just going back to kind ofbiblical answers to this, what
really comes to mind to me isthe good old if your brother
sins against you, go and speakto him, and if he won't hear you
(29:06):
, take another brother, and thenhe won't hear you take it to
the church, and so I figurethat's really our best place
when that is done in love andgraciousness and gentleness and
kindness.
The Bible's quite clear.
I mean sin.
Maybe that feels like a veryblack and white hard word in
that circumstance, but ifsomeone is in a senior leader
(29:28):
position, senior leadershipposition and they're dropping
the ball regularly in terms ofADHD or ASD, then really we need
to have that conversation withthem.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And it probably needs to be a two-way thing too, in
that often the expectations weput around ministry there's, you
know Zach S Wines talks about.
In some ways, ministers feellike they've got to be
omniscient, omnipotent,omnipresent.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know these really idolatrous expectations For
somebody who is neurodivergentto actually in a sense push back
to the church and say, do yourealise the expectations that
are here?
And to realise maybe it's goingto be a neurodivergent person
who says, look, because of myneurodivergent I can't meet all
(30:15):
these expectations.
Actually, the area of growth,is the church reflecting on the
unfairness of the expectationsthat are put up?
So I'm thinking dialogicallyhere, both listening to each
other.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Can you be successfully a senior pastor and
on the autism spectrum or withsignificant ADHD, Kirk with
significant ADHD.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Kirk, I think that's too blunt a question.
Are they self-aware who'ssurrounding them?
How does it manifest?
So I wouldn't answer that in ablack and white way.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Lindy I would say absolutely yes, but agreeing
with Kirk, as long as there'sawareness, insight,
understanding and there has tobe a commitment to managing the
neurodiversity.
There has to be a commitment tostrategies, techniques, open,
transparent, vulnerableconversations and an ongoing
(31:24):
commitment to growing themanagement of the neurodiversity
.
You know, being real and openand committing to that.
I think without that there'sgoing to be trouble ahead for
sure.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I didn't give either of you notice of this, but I'm
just reflecting.
I mean we've talked in thisconversation as if the
expectation is that thetheological college, the nerdy
person, higher percentage, allthat kind of thing.
Do you reckon that's just inour evangelical tribe or would
it be the same in thePentecostal tribe, for example?
(31:57):
I mean it's a question withoutnotice.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
You know, my gut feeling is I wonder in the
Pentecostal training colleges ifthe ADHD person is more
attracted to that because ofhigh levels of energy
spontaneity, yeah impulsivity,yeah, and creativity that's, you
know, that's valued and honoredand appreciated there, so I
could see that that might be anissue there, yeah I think, well,
(32:22):
I'm.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I'm aware of the.
My Myers-Briggs is notparticularly psychologically
robust, but there are studies ofMyers-Briggs personality types
and then… Theological tribe thatyou're drawn to.
Yes, that's right.
And are you more likely to be ayouth worker?
Are you more likely to be achurch planter?
So we all see thosecorrelations, don't we, between
types of people and types oftribes.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
We had a very interesting discussion a couple
of weeks ago about are you morelikely to be, if you like, the
maverick church planter or areyou more likely to be the campus
pastor?
You know, and the differentpersonality type drawn to that.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
But keep going.
Yeah, so I'm just going to saythat I would expect that where
people are on the neurodiversityspectrum is going to impact.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Which theological tribe you're drawn to?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Yes and I think we've probably all seen ministers who
, in terms of their, if they'rea senior pastor, with teaching
and the Good Shepherd together,right that we would think, hmm,
I wonder if he'd be better offlecturing or writing a book, or
you know, here's my questionthere.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Then I mean, yes, I can see that you put that person
in the theological college asthe lecturer, but then does that
mean we're less aware as atheological college of?
I mean, I just remember PhilipJensen 100 years ago saying to
us you want the theologicalcollege lecture to be a
(33:50):
frustrated pastor, you know,because yes, that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And certainly that where at Sydney Missionary and
Bible College there is thatsense of wanting us all to be
frustrated missionaries,frustrated pastors, that's right
.
I'm thinking of some studentsthat I've worked with over the
years, often who've gone intohighly specialised research and
(34:15):
I guess they've found, sometimesthey've found a spot in
languages where perhaps that'sokay, and then I'm aware of a
translation, something like thatMaybe yes, and I'm also aware
of another man who's gone offinto sort of very obscure
(34:37):
historical archaeological kindof tracks and so is pursuing an
academic career that isBible-related but not
ministry-related.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
And that's less demanding than the parish role
where you've got to look afterso many emotional needs and
administration needs of a parishright.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
A last comment for the staff team watching today.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Don't avoid it, deal with it, pray, have that
conversation, get a good teamaround you to have that
conversation and create a safeplace for the person that you're
going to have that conversationwith, so there's no shame,
there is acceptance.
Or you create a safe space forthem to step into, to increase
(35:24):
you know, invitational increasethe acceptance and de-shame so
that they can actually talkabout what's going on.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Kirk, why don't you lead in prayer for the person
who's and the staff team'snavigating this issue?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Sure, our Father, you're a powerful and good and
kind and creative creator, andwe do live in a creation whose
diversity overwhelms us and, aswe live alongside people who
(35:59):
have all kinds of personalities,all sorts of brains, all sorts
of ways of being in the world,we pray for all of us to be
people of love, to be people ofcompassion and insight and
empathy, and we pray for a senseof dignity about accountability
(36:20):
, about responsibility, aboutthe weight of leadership, and so
we pray for the gift of wisdomfor all of us as we navigate
this area.
Lord, we'd love the church tobe a place where diversity,
neurodivergence, all kinds ofdisability find a place of
(36:41):
belonging and contribution in away that speaks of your
hospitable kingdom.
So, lord, please give us thecourage and the wisdom and the
love to do that.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Amen.
Well, lindy Hedges and KirkPatston have been my guests on
the Pastor's Heart today.
Lindy, of course, director ofthe ADHD Foundation and in
private clinical practice inthis area, and Kirk Patston
lectures in Old Testamentpreaching and pastoral ministry
at Sydney Missionary and BibleCollege and has a PhD in
(37:16):
disability theology.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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