It is 1700 years since the council of Nicaea and the publication of the Nicene Creed - but what are we to make of it?
It was the twentieth of May in the year 325 that the Council of Nicaea first met.
Pope Francis said ‘The Nicene Creed is a powerful sign of unity among Christians.’
The 17 hundredth anniversary of the Council of Nicaea - is being used - by the Roman Catholic Church to push the idea that ‘All Christians are Nicene Christians.’
However the difficulty is that while we say the same words, Roman Catholics and Protestants mean vastly different things, and any unity is a fake unity at best.
Leonardo de Chirico is pastor of the Church Breccia di Roma and director of the Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano lectures in Christianity and History at Sydney Missionary and Bible College. She is a faculty member at the Rome scholars and leaders network, hosted by The Reformanda Initiative.
The book ‘The Nicene Creed’ is available from Matthias Media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Dominic Steele (00:00):
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(00:55):
Not so fast, my friend.
It is the pastor's heart andit's 1700 years since the
council of nicaea and thepublication of the nicene creed.
And what are we to make of it?
Today?
It is dominic steel.
I'm with rachel chiano andleonardo de.
There's an old line the devilis in the details.
Now it was the 12th of May inthe year 325 that the Council of
Nicaea first met, so that's1,700 years this month.
(01:17):
Pope Francis said the NiceneCreed is a powerful sign of
unity among Christians.
Creed is a powerful sign ofunity among Christians, and the
1700th anniversary of theCouncil of Nicaea is being used
by the Roman Catholic Church topush the idea that all
Christians are Nicene Christians.
And the Pope has said howbeautiful it would be if, each
(01:39):
time we proclaim the creed, wefelt united with Christians of
all traditions.
But a new Matthias Media bookpublished this month, called the
Nicene Creed the Nature ofChristian Unity and the Meaning
of Christian Words, essentiallysays not so fast, my friend, and
we have linked to that book inthe show notes.
(02:01):
Leonardo Di Chirico is with usagain, this time in person,
along with Rachel Ciano.
Leonardo is pastor of theChurch Breccia di Roma and the
director of the ReformandaInitiative.
Rachel lectures in Christianityand history at Sydney
Missionary and Bible College andis part of the faculty at the
Rome Scholars and LeadersNetwork, which is hosted by the
(02:23):
Reformanda Initiative.
Leonardo, the problem is, isn'tit, that when we say the words
of the Nicene Creed, we all saythe same words and we think
we're meaning the same thing,but we're actually meaning quite
different things?
Leonado D Chirrico (02:42):
Yes, you're right.
When we say the words, we arepronouncing the same sounds and
to a certain extent also werefer to the same meaning.
And yet, if we pronounce thewords, after many centuries,
(03:02):
since the Council of Nicaea,words have been loaded with
meanings that make it impossiblejust to stick to the point of
if we pronounce the same sounds,we are meaning the same thing.
(03:23):
Think about Mary, for example.
There is a reference in theCreed regarding the Holy Virgin,
and for a Catholic to refer toMary opens up a whole set of
files that not necessarily weremeant to be opened in the
(03:46):
original drafting.
And there are many Christians,like the Protestants, for whom
the reference to the Holy Virgindoesn't quite….
Dominic Steele (03:56):
But it's almost incidental for the Protestants.
Leonado D Chirrico (03:58):
Yes, exactly , and the same is true as far,
as, say, the remission of sinsand the same is true as far as
say, the remission of sins.
It's a very important statement, a very important truth, but
how do we appropriate or benefitfrom the grace of God in being
forgiven in our sins?
The Roman Catholic Church hasbuilt a whole sacramental system
(04:21):
in response.
Dominic Steele (04:23):
And as the Roman Catholic reads that sentence,
they read that whole framework.
Sure, sure, let's come back tothat in a moment, but first
let's go to the history of it.
Rachel, and you're the churchhistory lecturer, and I'm just
thinking there's a lot of peoplewatching who've studied church
history, but it was 25 years ago.
Sure, I get mixed up between myNicaea and my Constantinople
(04:47):
and take me back to actuallywhat happened 1,700 years ago.
Rachel Ciano (04:51):
Sure, there's a lot going on.
So, yes, the fourth century isthe century for Christological
controversies and articulationof the Trinity, and that goes,
goes on in further centuries.
But the fourth century isreally ground zero for those
discussions.
And so, at the beginning of thefourth century, there emerges
(05:13):
this teacher, arius.
Now I don't know if that'sringing a bell.
Dominic Steele (05:17):
I haven't forgotten quite that much.
Rachel Ciano (05:19):
The big line I kind of tie to him is he taught
that there was a time when thesun was not.
So he argued, in trying toprotect the unity of God and the
kind of unchangeable nature ofGod, that Jesus was not eternal.
And so if Jesus is not eternalthen he is not fully divine.
Dominic Steele (05:42):
And can't pay for the sins of the world.
That is one of the implicationsThat't pay for the sins of the
world in the same way.
Rachel Ciano (05:45):
That is one of the implications.
That is one of the implications.
So salvation comes throughimitation in Arian's system.
So Constantine comes to be thegreat emperor, has some sort of
conversion experience, ends upuniting the empire under his
(06:06):
rule, and one of the firstthings he wants to do is create
kind of re-unity in the empire,pax Romana, by using the
Christian church as part of thatunity.
He can see this kind of thesegrumblings, this schism sort of
happening around Arius' teaching, and so he wants unity.
(06:26):
So he calls this council toNicaea, near the imperial
residence in today's Turkey, andbishops and delegates come and
meet to discuss lots of things.
But number one on the agenda iswhat do we do with the
teachings of Arius?
Dominic Steele (06:43):
And there were three groups.
There was the Arians, theAthanasius people and the middle
mob the middle mob.
Rachel Ciano (06:52):
So the largest group at that council are the
middle mob.
They are happy to say thatJesus is mostly like God, but
they can't quite articulate thathe is exactly the same
substance, the same essence.
So the Athanasian camp isfirmly in that that Jesus is of
(07:14):
the same essence as the Father.
And then you have the Arians.
He is not of the same essenceas the Father.
Dominic Steele (07:20):
Remind me of the Greek words.
Rachel Ciano (07:21):
So homoousios, same substance, same essence.
Dominic Steele (07:27):
That's the Athanasius.
Rachel Ciano (07:28):
So the Athanasius, the broad group in the middle,
the semi-Arians homoousiossimilar essence.
Dominic Steele (07:37):
And really I hadn't reflected until I read
your book or maybe I hadn't andI'd forgotten on the intense
political pressure from theemperor for this council to come
up with a conclusion, and sothere was intense political
pressure for it to come up witha conclusion.
So it did.
It came up with the originalversion of the Nicene Creed, but
(07:59):
it was a forced unity.
Rachel Ciano (08:01):
It was a forced unity which meant a paper-thin
unity.
So very soon after the Councilof Nicaea in 325, the unity
crumbles and in kind of themiddle decades of the fourth
century, the empire and theemperor's court after
Constantine more or less windsup Arian.
(08:25):
That's when you have the workof the Cappadocian fathers.
Dominic Steele (08:27):
I mean that's very interesting because I mean
we'll put up the original creedon the screen here and it was
very clear when you look here,and it'll be more clear, if you
like, than I suppose, than thecreed with which we're familiar
with today.
And we believe in one Lord,jesus Christ, son of God,
begotten of the Father, onlybegotten, that is, from the
(08:51):
substance of the Father, godfrom God, light from light, very
God from very God.
Begotten, not madeconsubstantial.
Rachel Ciano (08:59):
And then your word , the same essence, yeah, so yes
, in 325 the council wanted tomake clear that in every way
Jesus was fully God.
Dominic Steele (09:11):
So they signed off under pressure from the
emperor.
Rachel Ciano (09:14):
But there is pressure because it was a forced
unity and so it hadn't grippedtheir hearts largely.
Emperor Constantine wasn'tknown for his theological acumen
.
He was a statesman and he usesChristianity for some of those
means.
So it's at the Council ofConstantinople in 381 that the
(09:37):
creed is re-articulated,re-affirmed, and there are some
additional clauses, there'sexpansion on what it means to
believe in the Holy Spirit, andthat's more or less the creed
that we say today is the 381Nicene Constantinople creed.
Dominic Steele (09:56):
Right.
And now what was going on inthe politics of the church at
the time?
Because you've got the powerbase of Athanasius, you've got
the power base of Athanasius,you've got the power base of
Arian.
It doesn't feel like the Romanguys.
I mean, what's happening withpopes?
And things like that at thatstage.
Rachel Ciano (10:20):
It's really almost prior to popes.
Dominic Steele (10:21):
Depends who you ask.
Yeah, that's what I realised.
Rachel Ciano (10:25):
Certainly, if you look at the power of the Bishop
of Rome, I would say it's aroundthe 5th century that the Bishop
of Rome really starts to gainascendancy as a position,
because there's lots of citiesin the Roman Empire that are
important, that have bishopsConstantinople, rome, antioch,
alexandria, jerusalem and soit's as the Roman Empire starts
(10:50):
to crumble that in the gap, thatthe Bishop of Rome really
becomes the prominent person inRome after the fall of Rome in
the 5th century.
Dominic Steele (11:03):
So as I think about that, I read, in
preparation for today, thedocument that's been prepared by
the Roman Catholic Church aheadof the 1700th anniversary and
they're really wanting to readback into, read the papacy and
(11:26):
the authority of bishops backinto this.
But as I read your book,leonardo, you were at pains to
see not that it was the bishopsand the church hierarchy that
were the authority, but in theend it is the scriptures that's
the authority.
Can you take us to that?
Leonado D Chirrico (11:42):
Yeah, that was the main concern of the
Athanasians group to articulatethe biblical message in a way
that was think of the NiceneCreed as stemming from the
(12:11):
language of John's gospel, forexample, reflecting on the
nature of the person of Jesus asbeing divine and human at the
same time, and connecting thelanguage of the Gospel of John
to the other synoptical Gospelswhen they talk about the history
(12:35):
, the earthly ministry of theLord Jesus and its salvific
significance, and putting thesummary of those two different
statements in a language thatwas adequate to the
(12:59):
philosophical discussions thatwere going around in the 4th
century, so introducing the wordhomoousion.
That is not a biblical word,but the council thought of this
word as being the right,appropriate elaboration of
(13:21):
biblical teaching concerning theperson of Jesus, and so they
introduced it as a way ofserving biblical truth and
serving the gospel.
Ultimately.
Dominic Steele (13:38):
Very clearly, though in the thesis you're
promoting here it's the creedsitting under the scripture,
whereas it's very clear in theRoman Catholic thesis it's the
church sitting over the creedsitting under the scripture,
whereas it's very clear in theRoman Catholic thesis it's the
church sitting over the creed.
Can you give us some more ofthat argy-bargy?
And between those two theses?
Rachel Ciano (14:00):
So I think creeds are very useful.
They're very helpfularticulations of theology,
they're summaries.
But, the bedrock, the foundation, is scripture.
They're only useful insofar asthey clearly articulate what
scripture teaches.
There may be terms that are notin scripture that are used in
(14:20):
creeds, but they are only usefulif they articulate scriptural
concepts.
If there is the understandingthat creeds come from the church
and the authority of the churchrather than from the authority
of scripture, then a church aRoman Catholic church in this
case then has authority over thecreeds and then is able to read
(14:44):
back into the creeds andunderstanding of, even, say, the
papacy or ideas of Mary orforgiveness of sins, what it
means to be one holy Catholicapostolic church, back into the
creed in a way that the fourthcentury debates did not
anticipate.
Dominic Steele (15:05):
Well, let's go through some of the big ideas of
the Creed, and what I want toexplore is the different
position of people who have theScriptures as their ultimate
authority versus people who havethe Roman Church as their
ultimate authority.
Person of Jesus Christ, work ofJesus Christ.
The Creed makes a statement andyet you're saying different
(15:29):
meanings in the statement there,Leonardo.
Leonado D Chirrico (15:32):
Well, there is certainly the claim of the
historical nature of theincarnation and the historicity
of the person of Jesus and thedivinity and the full humanity
historicity of the person ofJesus and the divinity and the
full humanity and that issomething that, at least at the
(15:56):
level of even the catechism ofthe Catholic Church, is affirmed
.
The problem comes in when thequestion is what do we do with
this?
What are the outcomes?
What are the consequences forour Christian worship, christian
life and the receiving ofChrist's salvation?
So on the one hand there is acommonality in affirming the
(16:21):
historicity of the person ofJesus, but then that doesn't
translate necessarily into thesame appreciation on how the
person of Jesus, but then thatdoesn't translate necessarily
into the same appreciation onhow the person of Jesus is our
Savior and how he actuallyexercises his lordship over the
world, over the church, over ourlives.
So at one level there iscommonality, but that level is
(16:48):
not the whole thing and we mustnot read into the creed
something that is beyond thescope of the creed and even also
considering the fact that weare no longer 1,700 years ago.
There have been manydevelopments, many elaborations,
(17:11):
many discussions, many morecreedal statements by the Roman
church interpreting.
Dominic Steele (17:17):
In fact, that was one of the things that
really jumped out at me stronglywhen I read the recent Roman
article, which said you shouldexpect theology to develop,
whereas I want to say no, I wantto look back to the scriptures.
Keep going, yeah, yeah.
Leonado D Chirrico (17:30):
So it's in the nature of the Roman church
to claim infallibility andindefectibility and so to put
the Nicene Creed as one kind ofstepping stone in this process,
kind of stepping stone in thisprocess, and so we cannot use it
, the Nicene Creed, as the fullyorbed, fully expressed summary
(17:56):
of the Christian faith.
It's one attempt at addressingone specific issue of the 4th
century and putting kind of afoundational block, but not the
summary of the whole gospelmessage, but addressing that
(18:18):
specific issue for that specificcircumstance.
Circumstance, and alsorealizing that the nature of the
subsequent Church of Romethought of Nicaea as just one.
They thought of it in organic,developmental terms only, in
(18:39):
terms of then needing furtherelaboration, further expansion,
to the point of then coming withthis fully expressed Roman
Catholic faith.
That is something beyond theCreed, although they claim that
(19:01):
it originates from the Creed,but actually it is something
that moved beyond the boundariesof the creed and interpreted
the creed in a certain way.
Dominic Steele (19:11):
What about the Holy Spirit?
We believe in the Holy Spirit,the Lord, the giver of life, who
proceeds from the Father andthe Son.
With the Father and the Son, heis worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through theprophets.
Differences, similaritiesbetween Protestant and Catholic
understandings there.
Rachel Ciano (19:29):
I think in the Roman Catholic Church's teaching
the Holy Spirit's primary workis in the sacraments, so first
in the sacrament of holy order,so in the nature of priesthood.
It is the Holy Spirit that thenallows the priest to act in the
person of Christ, the head, sothat when he forgives it's
(19:51):
actually Christ forgiving, whenthe priest baptises it's
actually Christ baptising.
And then the spirits work inthe sacraments such as the
Eucharist, which is the sourceand summit of the Christian life
.
Sacraments such as theEucharist, which is the source
and summit of the Christian life.
For example, the priest at themoment of transubstantiation
(20:13):
will call down the spirit totransubstantiate the element.
So it is the spirit's work intransubstantiation that then
becomes a way for Catholics toaccess that grace.
Dominic Steele (20:25):
I've forgotten that.
And then I was watching thePope's funeral the other night
and the little bell rang and Isaid to my wife that's what's
happening and she said, no,that's the moment of
transformation that is callingon the epiclesis is calling on
the Spirit to transubstantiatethe elements.
Rachel Ciano (20:43):
Whereas I think in a Protestant understanding of
the elements, whereas I think ina Protestant understanding of
the scriptures, the Holy Spiritisn't so much tied to the nature
of the priesthood or thesacraments, but rather the
Spirit's job is to bring newlife, to regenerate.
The Spirit is never separate ina Trinitarian formulation from
(21:07):
the work of the son and thefather, and so Calvin made this
argument when he was talkingwith well, not talking writing
with Sardaletto, CardinalSardaletto, in the 16th century.
He said when you receive Christ, you receive his spirit.
You can't have the spiritwithout Christ, and therefore
(21:29):
the spirit will do the work ofregeneration.
So our good works by the spiritare connected to our
regeneration in Christ.
According to Calvin, thespirit's work is not to help us
participate in accessing grace.
Dominic Steele (21:46):
That's profoundly different, that if
the Spirit's there to give methe new birth and to lead me to
holiness versus all of thosekind of holy, order-y type
things and seven sacraments andthat kind of thing the Spirit's
sitting beside me as I read theScriptures, helping me to
(22:08):
understand the Scriptures.
It's just I mean you said beforethe difference in understanding
of the words over the person ofChrist, particularly the
atoning work of Christ.
But here there's just a massivedifference in understanding
that the Protestant and theCatholic are going to be reading
different things.
Rachel Ciano (22:27):
So the way that you've described the work of the
Spirit in your own life thereto be beside you, perhaps
leading you interceding for you,your comforter, your guide.
Dominic Steele (22:39):
Yeah, that's the language of John 14 to 16, yeah
.
Rachel Ciano (22:42):
In the Roman Catholic system Mary often takes
that role.
So we would suggest in the bookthat actually the high view
given to Mary actually makes usthink about are we confessing
the same Trinity?
Because the roles ascribed toMary in the Roman Catholic
(23:04):
system are actually roles thatthe scriptures say are the work
of the Spirit alone.
Dominic Steele (23:10):
Referee me there , leonardo.
I mean I'll just go back to theearly clauses For us men and
for our salvation.
He came down from heaven by thepower of the Holy Spirit.
He was incarnate of the VirginMary and became man.
That's the reference to theVirgin Mary in the Apostles'
Creed.
But a whole different set ofthinking is going on in the
(23:32):
Catholic's mind to theProtestant mind at that point.
Leonado D Chirrico (23:35):
That's right , because the reference in the
Creed is based on the history ofsalvation and the redemptive
history that we're told of inthe Gospels, whereas the further
elaboration of the CatholicChurch elevated Mary to a
(23:56):
mediating agency or person, tothe comforting presence,
presence to the helping resource, and making the Holy Spirit
(24:16):
kind of redundant or removedfrom the Christian life, and
also making the presence of therisen Christ too remote, too
distant, too high and fillingthe gap with the pervasive
presence of Mary.
And so while we state togetherthese historical facts that come
(24:37):
from the Bible, the way weappropriate them, we receive
them, we benefit from them,differs in a in a substantial
way and leading to differentdirections, different paths,
different spiritualities,different accounts of the gospel
(24:59):
, basically coming from the samesummary that is not complete,
but just a summary of certainissues discussed at the time,
but then resulting in verydifferent directions.
And therefore, claiming that wecan go back and find in the
(25:22):
Nicene Creed our common sharedunity.
Agreement is something that hasto be demonstrated, not
something that has to be assumed.
Dominic Steele (25:34):
Yeah, I'm just going to come to the last clause
.
Really, we believe in one holyCatholic and apostolic church.
What do you make of that?
Well, what do the Protestantsversus the Roman Catholics?
How do we differently interpret?
Leonado D Chirrico (25:51):
that?
Yeah.
Well, that's a great example ofthe way in which we can say the
same marks of the church andyet understanding them in a way
that is very different.
The Catholic Church sees inthose four marks the legitimacy
(26:13):
of the Roman Catholic papalinstitutional, political church,
as the Protestant receives thefour marks as an indication of
the work of Christ and the HolySpirit in the community of those
(26:34):
who profess the faith in Christand those who obey Christ and
follow the leadership, thelordship of Christ and
understanding the Church as theservant of the word and at the
service of the gospel, ratherthan as a mediating agency
(26:55):
representing God and exercisingthe power, the offices of Christ
on his behalf.
Dominic Steele (27:02):
Rachel, through church history people have gone
back and forward over thesignificance of that clause.
The have gone back and forwardover the significance of that
clause.
The one holy Catholic andapostolic church.
Rachel Ciano (27:12):
Yes, in a sense the story of the church is what
does it mean to be one?
Dominic Steele (27:18):
That's something that the reformers wrestled
with One.
Rachel Ciano (27:22):
that's something that the reformers wrestled with
.
The Protestant reformers of the16th century were devoted
Catholic men and women, and sothey wanted to maintain the
unity of the one Didn't want tobe the splitters.
Absolutely.
They didn't want to be new,they didn't want to be novel,
they weren't being innovative.
(27:43):
They were simply calling backthe church of their day to a
church that they saw in thescriptures as they read them,
and so, in a sense, it broketheir hearts to have to move
away, or really, they werepushed out they were
miscommunicated and so no longerpart of the church.
(28:05):
And so some people describe theReformation as Augustine's
doctrine of grace, which isgrace alone in his debates with
Pelagius, winning overAugustine's doctrine of the
church, which is there to beunity and not divisibility.
(28:25):
And so, in the end, for theReformers, it is the work of God
, through his Son and by hisSpirit, in enabling grace to be
available for believers, thatwins the day, in the Reformation
, over there being oneindividual church.
And then, what does it mean tobe Catholic?
What does it mean to beCatholic?
(28:45):
What does it mean to beuniversal?
Is that the Roman CatholicChurch, or is it the
universality of people who havetrusted in Jesus, who call on
him as Lord, who meet in localgatherings but are united by his
spirit across the world andacross time?
Dominic Steele (29:02):
It's a super important difference you're
articulating and yet so manypeople just kind of blur it over
and say, yes, it's all of usand it's also the group headed
by Rome and the Pope.
Rachel Ciano (29:17):
Well, I think that's where the apostolic idea
in that confession comes through.
So is the church apostolicbecause it can trace apostolic
succession from Peter through towhoever the next Pope is going
to be?
Or is it apostolic because thefoundations are the apostolic
teaching and preaching, thewritten words of scripture?
(29:40):
Is that submission to that whatmakes the church?
Dominic Steele (29:44):
apostolic.
Again, that's an example ofsame words, different meaning.
Yeah, what about the return ofChrist Leonardo?
How do we think differently?
I'm just looking at this lastsentence.
We look for the resurrection ofthe dead, the life of the world
to come.
Leonado D Chirrico (29:57):
Yeah, well, there is the expectation that
the Lord Jesus will come asecond time in glory, and there
is a sense in which the RomanCatholic Church has internalized
that expectation in the lifeand the structures of the church
itself, so that the kingdom ofGod is completely realized and
(30:24):
actualized in the life of theRoman Church.
And so there is very little toexpect, there is very little
that has yet to come.
And because the vicar of Christis the head of the Church, the
full presence, real presence andtransubstantiated presence of
(30:46):
the Lord Jesus is with us, theinfallible words of Jesus are
with us, and the absolution ofour sins through the priest is
with us, what else you wouldexpect?
What else are you waiting for?
And so, even at that point, theCatholic Church embraced an
(31:09):
over-realized type ofeschatology.
Over-realized because theythought of the church being the
full realization of theeschatological expectations, and
so making the statement again afootnote to their ecclesiology,
(31:29):
not a proper indication of theeschatological hope.
Dominic Steele (31:36):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to
us.
The book is the Nicene Creed,the Nature of Christian Unity
and the Meaning of Gospel Words.
It's been edited by MarkGilbert and Leonardo DiCirico,
and Rachel is a contributor toit, along with a number of
others.
We want to say thanks forcoming in and talking to us
about that.
We'll put a link to the book inthe show notes.
Leonardo DiCirico has been ourguest.
(31:57):
He is the pastor of ChurchBreccia di Roma and director of
the Reformanda Institute, andRachel lectures in Christianity
and History at Sydney Missionaryand Bible College and is on the
faculty at the Rome Scholarsand Leaders Network, part of
that Reformanda initiative.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
(32:18):
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Can you help us with the pastor's heart?
We are running a special appealin the lead up to the 30th of
June in Australia.
We're aiming to raise $30,000to support the work of the
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(00:55):
Not so fast, my friend.
It is the pastor's heart andit's 1700 years since the
council of nicaea and thepublication of the nicene creed.
And what are we to make of it?
Today?
It is dominic steel.
I'm with rachel chiano andleonardo de.
There's an old line the devilis in the details.
Now it was the 12th of May inthe year 325 that the Council of
Nicaea first met, so that's1,700 years this month.
(01:17):
Pope Francis said the NiceneCreed is a powerful sign of
unity among Christians.
Creed is a powerful sign ofunity among Christians, and the
1700th anniversary of theCouncil of Nicaea is being used
by the Roman Catholic Church topush the idea that all
Christians are Nicene Christians.
And the Pope has said howbeautiful it would be if, each
(01:39):
time we proclaim the creed, wefelt united with Christians of
all traditions.
But a new Matthias Media bookpublished this month, called the
Nicene Creed the Nature ofChristian Unity and the Meaning
of Christian Words, essentiallysays not so fast, my friend, and
we have linked to that book inthe show notes.
(02:01):
Leonardo Di Chirico is with usagain, this time in person,
along with Rachel Ciano.
Leonardo is pastor of theChurch Breccia di Roma and the
director of the ReformandaInitiative.
Rachel lectures in Christianityand history at Sydney
Missionary and Bible College andis part of the faculty at the
Rome Scholars and LeadersNetwork, which is hosted by the
(02:23):
Reformanda Initiative.
Leonardo, the problem is, isn'tit, that when we say the words
of the Nicene Creed, we all saythe same words and we think
we're meaning the same thing,but we're actually meaning quite
different things?
Leonado D Chirrico (02:42):
Yes, you're right.
When we say the words, we arepronouncing the same sounds and
to a certain extent also werefer to the same meaning.
And yet, if we pronounce thewords, after many centuries,
(03:02):
since the Council of Nicaea,words have been loaded with
meanings that make it impossiblejust to stick to the point of
if we pronounce the same sounds,we are meaning the same thing.
(03:23):
Think about Mary, for example.
There is a reference in theCreed regarding the Holy Virgin,
and for a Catholic to refer toMary opens up a whole set of
files that not necessarily weremeant to be opened in the
(03:46):
original drafting.
And there are many Christians,like the Protestants, for whom
the reference to the Holy Virgindoesn't quite….
Dominic Steele (03:56):
But it's almost incidental for the Protestants.
Leonado D Chirrico (03:58):
Yes, exactly , and the same is true as far,
as, say, the remission of sinsand the same is true as far as
say, the remission of sins.
It's a very important statement, a very important truth, but
how do we appropriate or benefitfrom the grace of God in being
forgiven in our sins?
The Roman Catholic Church hasbuilt a whole sacramental system
(04:21):
in response.
Dominic Steele (04:23):
And as the Roman Catholic reads that sentence,
they read that whole framework.
Sure, sure, let's come back tothat in a moment, but first
let's go to the history of it.
Rachel, and you're the churchhistory lecturer, and I'm just
thinking there's a lot of peoplewatching who've studied church
history, but it was 25 years ago.
Sure, I get mixed up between myNicaea and my Constantinople
(04:47):
and take me back to actuallywhat happened 1,700 years ago.
Rachel Ciano (04:51):
Sure, there's a lot going on.
So, yes, the fourth century isthe century for Christological
controversies and articulationof the Trinity, and that goes,
goes on in further centuries.
But the fourth century isreally ground zero for those
discussions.
And so, at the beginning of thefourth century, there emerges
(05:13):
this teacher, arius.
Now I don't know if that'sringing a bell.
Dominic Steele (05:17):
I haven't forgotten quite that much.
Rachel Ciano (05:19):
The big line I kind of tie to him is he taught
that there was a time when thesun was not.
So he argued, in trying toprotect the unity of God and the
kind of unchangeable nature ofGod, that Jesus was not eternal.
And so if Jesus is not eternalthen he is not fully divine.
Dominic Steele (05:42):
And can't pay for the sins of the world.
That is one of the implicationsThat't pay for the sins of the
world in the same way.
Rachel Ciano (05:45):
That is one of the implications.
That is one of the implications.
So salvation comes throughimitation in Arian's system.
So Constantine comes to be thegreat emperor, has some sort of
conversion experience, ends upuniting the empire under his
(06:06):
rule, and one of the firstthings he wants to do is create
kind of re-unity in the empire,pax Romana, by using the
Christian church as part of thatunity.
He can see this kind of thesegrumblings, this schism sort of
happening around Arius' teaching, and so he wants unity.
(06:26):
So he calls this council toNicaea, near the imperial
residence in today's Turkey, andbishops and delegates come and
meet to discuss lots of things.
But number one on the agenda iswhat do we do with the
teachings of Arius?
Dominic Steele (06:43):
And there were three groups.
There was the Arians, theAthanasius people and the middle
mob the middle mob.
Rachel Ciano (06:52):
So the largest group at that council are the
middle mob.
They are happy to say thatJesus is mostly like God, but
they can't quite articulate thathe is exactly the same
substance, the same essence.
So the Athanasian camp isfirmly in that that Jesus is of
(07:14):
the same essence as the Father.
And then you have the Arians.
He is not of the same essenceas the Father.
Dominic Steele (07:20):
Remind me of the Greek words.
Rachel Ciano (07:21):
So homoousios, same substance, same essence.
Dominic Steele (07:27):
That's the Athanasius.
Rachel Ciano (07:28):
So the Athanasius, the broad group in the middle,
the semi-Arians homoousiossimilar essence.
Dominic Steele (07:37):
And really I hadn't reflected until I read
your book or maybe I hadn't andI'd forgotten on the intense
political pressure from theemperor for this council to come
up with a conclusion, and sothere was intense political
pressure for it to come up witha conclusion.
So it did.
It came up with the originalversion of the Nicene Creed, but
(07:59):
it was a forced unity.
Rachel Ciano (08:01):
It was a forced unity which meant a paper-thin
unity.
So very soon after the Councilof Nicaea in 325, the unity
crumbles and in kind of themiddle decades of the fourth
century, the empire and theemperor's court after
Constantine more or less windsup Arian.
(08:25):
That's when you have the workof the Cappadocian fathers.
Dominic Steele (08:27):
I mean that's very interesting because I mean
we'll put up the original creedon the screen here and it was
very clear when you look here,and it'll be more clear, if you
like, than I suppose, than thecreed with which we're familiar
with today.
And we believe in one Lord,jesus Christ, son of God,
begotten of the Father, onlybegotten, that is, from the
(08:51):
substance of the Father, godfrom God, light from light, very
God from very God.
Begotten, not madeconsubstantial.
Rachel Ciano (08:59):
And then your word , the same essence, yeah, so yes
, in 325 the council wanted tomake clear that in every way
Jesus was fully God.
Dominic Steele (09:11):
So they signed off under pressure from the
emperor.
Rachel Ciano (09:14):
But there is pressure because it was a forced
unity and so it hadn't grippedtheir hearts largely.
Emperor Constantine wasn'tknown for his theological acumen
.
He was a statesman and he usesChristianity for some of those
means.
So it's at the Council ofConstantinople in 381 that the
(09:37):
creed is re-articulated,re-affirmed, and there are some
additional clauses, there'sexpansion on what it means to
believe in the Holy Spirit, andthat's more or less the creed
that we say today is the 381Nicene Constantinople creed.
Dominic Steele (09:56):
Right.
And now what was going on inthe politics of the church at
the time?
Because you've got the powerbase of Athanasius, you've got
the power base of Athanasius,you've got the power base of
Arian.
It doesn't feel like the Romanguys.
I mean, what's happening withpopes?
And things like that at thatstage.
Rachel Ciano (10:20):
It's really almost prior to popes.
Dominic Steele (10:21):
Depends who you ask.
Yeah, that's what I realised.
Rachel Ciano (10:25):
Certainly, if you look at the power of the Bishop
of Rome, I would say it's aroundthe 5th century that the Bishop
of Rome really starts to gainascendancy as a position,
because there's lots of citiesin the Roman Empire that are
important, that have bishopsConstantinople, rome, antioch,
alexandria, jerusalem and soit's as the Roman Empire starts
(10:50):
to crumble that in the gap, thatthe Bishop of Rome really
becomes the prominent person inRome after the fall of Rome in
the 5th century.
Dominic Steele (11:03):
So as I think about that, I read, in
preparation for today, thedocument that's been prepared by
the Roman Catholic Church aheadof the 1700th anniversary and
they're really wanting to readback into, read the papacy and
(11:26):
the authority of bishops backinto this.
But as I read your book,leonardo, you were at pains to
see not that it was the bishopsand the church hierarchy that
were the authority, but in theend it is the scriptures that's
the authority.
Can you take us to that?
Leonado D Chirrico (11:42):
Yeah, that was the main concern of the
Athanasians group to articulatethe biblical message in a way
that was think of the NiceneCreed as stemming from the
(12:11):
language of John's gospel, forexample, reflecting on the
nature of the person of Jesus asbeing divine and human at the
same time, and connecting thelanguage of the Gospel of John
to the other synoptical Gospelswhen they talk about the history
(12:35):
, the earthly ministry of theLord Jesus and its salvific
significance, and putting thesummary of those two different
statements in a language thatwas adequate to the
(12:59):
philosophical discussions thatwere going around in the 4th
century, so introducing the wordhomoousion.
That is not a biblical word,but the council thought of this
word as being the right,appropriate elaboration of
(13:21):
biblical teaching concerning theperson of Jesus, and so they
introduced it as a way ofserving biblical truth and
serving the gospel.
Ultimately.
Dominic Steele (13:38):
Very clearly, though in the thesis you're
promoting here it's the creedsitting under the scripture,
whereas it's very clear in theRoman Catholic thesis it's the
church sitting over the creedsitting under the scripture,
whereas it's very clear in theRoman Catholic thesis it's the
church sitting over the creed.
Can you give us some more ofthat argy-bargy?
And between those two theses?
Rachel Ciano (14:00):
So I think creeds are very useful.
They're very helpfularticulations of theology,
they're summaries.
But, the bedrock, the foundation, is scripture.
They're only useful insofar asthey clearly articulate what
scripture teaches.
There may be terms that are notin scripture that are used in
(14:20):
creeds, but they are only usefulif they articulate scriptural
concepts.
If there is the understandingthat creeds come from the church
and the authority of the churchrather than from the authority
of scripture, then a church aRoman Catholic church in this
case then has authority over thecreeds and then is able to read
(14:44):
back into the creeds andunderstanding of, even, say, the
papacy or ideas of Mary orforgiveness of sins, what it
means to be one holy Catholicapostolic church, back into the
creed in a way that the fourthcentury debates did not
anticipate.
Dominic Steele (15:05):
Well, let's go through some of the big ideas of
the Creed, and what I want toexplore is the different
position of people who have theScriptures as their ultimate
authority versus people who havethe Roman Church as their
ultimate authority.
Person of Jesus Christ, work ofJesus Christ.
The Creed makes a statement andyet you're saying different
(15:29):
meanings in the statement there,Leonardo.
Leonado D Chirrico (15:32):
Well, there is certainly the claim of the
historical nature of theincarnation and the historicity
of the person of Jesus and thedivinity and the full humanity
historicity of the person ofJesus and the divinity and the
full humanity and that issomething that, at least at the
(15:56):
level of even the catechism ofthe Catholic Church, is affirmed
.
The problem comes in when thequestion is what do we do with
this?
What are the outcomes?
What are the consequences forour Christian worship, christian
life and the receiving ofChrist's salvation?
So on the one hand there is acommonality in affirming the
(16:21):
historicity of the person ofJesus, but then that doesn't
translate necessarily into thesame appreciation on how the
person of Jesus, but then thatdoesn't translate necessarily
into the same appreciation onhow the person of Jesus is our
Savior and how he actuallyexercises his lordship over the
world, over the church, over ourlives.
So at one level there iscommonality, but that level is
(16:48):
not the whole thing and we mustnot read into the creed
something that is beyond thescope of the creed and even also
considering the fact that weare no longer 1,700 years ago.
There have been manydevelopments, many elaborations,
(17:11):
many discussions, many morecreedal statements by the Roman
church interpreting.
Dominic Steele (17:17):
In fact, that was one of the things that
really jumped out at me stronglywhen I read the recent Roman
article, which said you shouldexpect theology to develop,
whereas I want to say no, I wantto look back to the scriptures.
Keep going, yeah, yeah.
Leonado D Chirrico (17:30):
So it's in the nature of the Roman church
to claim infallibility andindefectibility and so to put
the Nicene Creed as one kind ofstepping stone in this process,
kind of stepping stone in thisprocess, and so we cannot use it
, the Nicene Creed, as the fullyorbed, fully expressed summary
(17:56):
of the Christian faith.
It's one attempt at addressingone specific issue of the 4th
century and putting kind of afoundational block, but not the
summary of the whole gospelmessage, but addressing that
(18:18):
specific issue for that specificcircumstance.
Circumstance, and alsorealizing that the nature of the
subsequent Church of Romethought of Nicaea as just one.
They thought of it in organic,developmental terms only, in
(18:39):
terms of then needing furtherelaboration, further expansion,
to the point of then coming withthis fully expressed Roman
Catholic faith.
That is something beyond theCreed, although they claim that
(19:01):
it originates from the Creed,but actually it is something
that moved beyond the boundariesof the creed and interpreted
the creed in a certain way.
Dominic Steele (19:11):
What about the Holy Spirit?
We believe in the Holy Spirit,the Lord, the giver of life, who
proceeds from the Father andthe Son.
With the Father and the Son, heis worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through theprophets.
Differences, similaritiesbetween Protestant and Catholic
understandings there.
Rachel Ciano (19:29):
I think in the Roman Catholic Church's teaching
the Holy Spirit's primary workis in the sacraments, so first
in the sacrament of holy order,so in the nature of priesthood.
It is the Holy Spirit that thenallows the priest to act in the
person of Christ, the head, sothat when he forgives it's
(19:51):
actually Christ forgiving, whenthe priest baptises it's
actually Christ baptising.
And then the spirits work inthe sacraments such as the
Eucharist, which is the sourceand summit of the Christian life
.
Sacraments such as theEucharist, which is the source
and summit of the Christian life.
For example, the priest at themoment of transubstantiation
(20:13):
will call down the spirit totransubstantiate the element.
So it is the spirit's work intransubstantiation that then
becomes a way for Catholics toaccess that grace.
Dominic Steele (20:25):
I've forgotten that.
And then I was watching thePope's funeral the other night
and the little bell rang and Isaid to my wife that's what's
happening and she said, no,that's the moment of
transformation that is callingon the epiclesis is calling on
the Spirit to transubstantiatethe elements.
Rachel Ciano (20:43):
Whereas I think in a Protestant understanding of
the elements, whereas I think ina Protestant understanding of
the scriptures, the Holy Spiritisn't so much tied to the nature
of the priesthood or thesacraments, but rather the
Spirit's job is to bring newlife, to regenerate.
The Spirit is never separate ina Trinitarian formulation from
(21:07):
the work of the son and thefather, and so Calvin made this
argument when he was talkingwith well, not talking writing
with Sardaletto, CardinalSardaletto, in the 16th century.
He said when you receive Christ, you receive his spirit.
You can't have the spiritwithout Christ, and therefore
(21:29):
the spirit will do the work ofregeneration.
So our good works by the spiritare connected to our
regeneration in Christ.
According to Calvin, thespirit's work is not to help us
participate in accessing grace.
Dominic Steele (21:46):
That's profoundly different, that if
the Spirit's there to give methe new birth and to lead me to
holiness versus all of thosekind of holy, order-y type
things and seven sacraments andthat kind of thing the Spirit's
sitting beside me as I read theScriptures, helping me to
(22:08):
understand the Scriptures.
It's just I mean you said beforethe difference in understanding
of the words over the person ofChrist, particularly the
atoning work of Christ.
But here there's just a massivedifference in understanding
that the Protestant and theCatholic are going to be reading
different things.
Rachel Ciano (22:27):
So the way that you've described the work of the
Spirit in your own life thereto be beside you, perhaps
leading you interceding for you,your comforter, your guide.
Dominic Steele (22:39):
Yeah, that's the language of John 14 to 16, yeah
.
Rachel Ciano (22:42):
In the Roman Catholic system Mary often takes
that role.
So we would suggest in the bookthat actually the high view
given to Mary actually makes usthink about are we confessing
the same Trinity?
Because the roles ascribed toMary in the Roman Catholic
(23:04):
system are actually roles thatthe scriptures say are the work
of the Spirit alone.
Dominic Steele (23:10):
Referee me there , leonardo.
I mean I'll just go back to theearly clauses For us men and
for our salvation.
He came down from heaven by thepower of the Holy Spirit.
He was incarnate of the VirginMary and became man.
That's the reference to theVirgin Mary in the Apostles'
Creed.
But a whole different set ofthinking is going on in the
(23:32):
Catholic's mind to theProtestant mind at that point.
Leonado D Chirrico (23:35):
That's right , because the reference in the
Creed is based on the history ofsalvation and the redemptive
history that we're told of inthe Gospels, whereas the further
elaboration of the CatholicChurch elevated Mary to a
(23:56):
mediating agency or person, tothe comforting presence,
presence to the helping resource, and making the Holy Spirit
(24:16):
kind of redundant or removedfrom the Christian life, and
also making the presence of therisen Christ too remote, too
distant, too high and fillingthe gap with the pervasive
presence of Mary.
And so while we state togetherthese historical facts that come
(24:37):
from the Bible, the way weappropriate them, we receive
them, we benefit from them,differs in a in a substantial
way and leading to differentdirections, different paths,
different spiritualities,different accounts of the gospel
(24:59):
, basically coming from the samesummary that is not complete,
but just a summary of certainissues discussed at the time,
but then resulting in verydifferent directions.
And therefore, claiming that wecan go back and find in the
(25:22):
Nicene Creed our common sharedunity.
Agreement is something that hasto be demonstrated, not
something that has to be assumed.
Dominic Steele (25:34):
Yeah, I'm just going to come to the last clause
.
Really, we believe in one holyCatholic and apostolic church.
What do you make of that?
Well, what do the Protestantsversus the Roman Catholics?
How do we differently interpret?
Leonado D Chirrico (25:51):
that?
Yeah.
Well, that's a great example ofthe way in which we can say the
same marks of the church andyet understanding them in a way
that is very different.
The Catholic Church sees inthose four marks the legitimacy
(26:13):
of the Roman Catholic papalinstitutional, political church,
as the Protestant receives thefour marks as an indication of
the work of Christ and the HolySpirit in the community of those
(26:34):
who profess the faith in Christand those who obey Christ and
follow the leadership, thelordship of Christ and
understanding the Church as theservant of the word and at the
service of the gospel, ratherthan as a mediating agency
(26:55):
representing God and exercisingthe power, the offices of Christ
on his behalf.
Dominic Steele (27:02):
Rachel, through church history people have gone
back and forward over thesignificance of that clause.
The have gone back and forwardover the significance of that
clause.
The one holy Catholic andapostolic church.
Rachel Ciano (27:12):
Yes, in a sense the story of the church is what
does it mean to be one?
Dominic Steele (27:18):
That's something that the reformers wrestled
with One.
Rachel Ciano (27:22):
that's something that the reformers wrestled with
.
The Protestant reformers of the16th century were devoted
Catholic men and women, and sothey wanted to maintain the
unity of the one Didn't want tobe the splitters.
Absolutely.
They didn't want to be new,they didn't want to be novel,
they weren't being innovative.
(27:43):
They were simply calling backthe church of their day to a
church that they saw in thescriptures as they read them,
and so, in a sense, it broketheir hearts to have to move
away, or really, they werepushed out they were
miscommunicated and so no longerpart of the church.
(28:05):
And so some people describe theReformation as Augustine's
doctrine of grace, which isgrace alone in his debates with
Pelagius, winning overAugustine's doctrine of the
church, which is there to beunity and not divisibility.
(28:25):
And so, in the end, for theReformers, it is the work of God
, through his Son and by hisSpirit, in enabling grace to be
available for believers, thatwins the day, in the Reformation
, over there being oneindividual church.
And then, what does it mean tobe Catholic?
What does it mean to beCatholic?
(28:45):
What does it mean to beuniversal?
Is that the Roman CatholicChurch, or is it the
universality of people who havetrusted in Jesus, who call on
him as Lord, who meet in localgatherings but are united by his
spirit across the world andacross time?
Dominic Steele (29:02):
It's a super important difference you're
articulating and yet so manypeople just kind of blur it over
and say, yes, it's all of usand it's also the group headed
by Rome and the Pope.
Rachel Ciano (29:17):
Well, I think that's where the apostolic idea
in that confession comes through.
So is the church apostolicbecause it can trace apostolic
succession from Peter through towhoever the next Pope is going
to be?
Or is it apostolic because thefoundations are the apostolic
teaching and preaching, thewritten words of scripture?
(29:40):
Is that submission to that whatmakes the church?
Dominic Steele (29:44):
apostolic.
Again, that's an example ofsame words, different meaning.
Yeah, what about the return ofChrist Leonardo?
How do we think differently?
I'm just looking at this lastsentence.
We look for the resurrection ofthe dead, the life of the world
to come.
Leonado D Chirrico (29:57):
Yeah, well, there is the expectation that
the Lord Jesus will come asecond time in glory, and there
is a sense in which the RomanCatholic Church has internalized
that expectation in the lifeand the structures of the church
itself, so that the kingdom ofGod is completely realized and
(30:24):
actualized in the life of theRoman Church.
And so there is very little toexpect, there is very little
that has yet to come.
And because the vicar of Christis the head of the Church, the
full presence, real presence andtransubstantiated presence of
(30:46):
the Lord Jesus is with us, theinfallible words of Jesus are
with us, and the absolution ofour sins through the priest is
with us, what else you wouldexpect?
What else are you waiting for?
And so, even at that point, theCatholic Church embraced an
(31:09):
over-realized type ofeschatology.
Over-realized because theythought of the church being the
full realization of theeschatological expectations, and
so making the statement again afootnote to their ecclesiology,
(31:29):
not a proper indication of theeschatological hope.
Dominic Steele (31:36):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to
us.
The book is the Nicene Creed,the Nature of Christian Unity
and the Meaning of Gospel Words.
It's been edited by MarkGilbert and Leonardo DiCirico,
and Rachel is a contributor toit, along with a number of
others.
We want to say thanks forcoming in and talking to us
about that.
We'll put a link to the book inthe show notes.
Leonardo DiCirico has been ourguest.
(31:57):
He is the pastor of ChurchBreccia di Roma and director of
the Reformanda Institute, andRachel lectures in Christianity
and History at Sydney Missionaryand Bible College and is on the
faculty at the Rome Scholarsand Leaders Network, part of
that Reformanda initiative.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
(32:18):
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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