We are hearing reports from the university campuses, from young adult ministries, and from youth groups - that there is an increasing openness to the gospel of Jesus - and there’s a new openness among young men.
There’s a shift in the culture. There’s something happening that is different among young people - Especially among young men.
There’s a greater biblical ignorance in the rising generation. But significantly more openness.
There’s less hostility when compared to a decade ago. Walk up evangelism is easier and people are more open to discussing their views on Jesus.
And people are being saved. And young men are being saved
Andy Stephenson heads the Youth Ministry support team for Anglican Youthworks.
Dave Jensen works with Evangelism and New Churches encouraging and mobilizing churches in Evangelism and is one of the keynote speakers at the Nexus Ministry Conference on 17 March 2025.
Katie Stringer is involved in high school ministry across Sydney’s secular inner west.
The Church Co
thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Anglican Aid
Anglican Aid - To find out more about how to support Anglican Aid.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel and the
panel today, andy stevenson,dave jensen and katie stringer.
There is something going on.
There's a shift in the culture.
I don't want to overstate it,but something is happening that
is different among young peopleand maybe especially among young
men.
What's happening?
Why is it happening?
The churches that are seeingmore young people saved, more
(00:31):
young men saved.
What are they doing and howshould the church leader respond
and what are the dangers?
What are the things to watchout for?
We are hearing reports fromuniversity campuses, from young
adult ministries and from youthgroups that there is an
increasing openness to thegospel of Jesus and a new
(00:51):
openness among young men.
Just let that sentence sink in.
There's a greater biblicalignorance in the rising
generation, but significantlymore openness.
There's less hostility whencompared to a decade ago.
Walk-up evangelism is easierand people are more open to
(01:12):
discussing their views on Jesusand people are being saved.
Young men are being saved.
Andy Stevenson is with us.
He heads the youth ministrysupport team for Anglican Youth
Works.
Dave Jensen is here.
He works with evangelism andnew churches here in Sydney,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in their evangelism,
and he's one of the keynotespeakers at the Nexus Ministry
(01:35):
Conference being held here inSydney in a few weeks' time, and
Katie Stringer is with us.
Katie is involved in schoolsministry at a range of high
schools in Sydney's secularinner west.
We're going to start withwhat's going on, but, andy
Stevenson, as somebody who'sspent 20 years working hard in
(01:55):
ministry to young people, I takeit your pastor's heart is
excited.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, very much so.
I mean I've seen many thingsover the 20 years or more.
Now it makes me feel a bit old,but I've been very thankful and
privileged to be part of what'shappening in youth ministry
across Sydney and beyond.
But I am seeing in one sense abit of a resurgence,
particularly among young men inyouth group and seeing youth
(02:20):
groups having more boys there.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Because that's not been the case, has it?
It's been more girls than boysfor a long time.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, generally I'm in a position where I get to
visit a lot of youth groups andyou know, anecdotally, two out
of three have more girls thanboys.
But lately, in visiting youthgroups and chatting to youth
ministers, there's more boysaround and I think that's pretty
exciting.
And they're not just there forthe girls, despite popular
belief, although some might be,but they're there because
(02:50):
there's a bit of a hunger.
They want to know what'shappening, who's this Jesus guy?
They want to know truth.
There are big questions comingout of COVID.
Spirituality is not a weirdthing anymore.
In fact, I don't know whether Iwant to say it's cool, but I
want to say it's definitely onthe agenda and I have three
young sons and even they'retalking about it, which is wild.
So, yeah, and I'm seeing moreand more young people become
(03:14):
Christians, young men becomeChristians and being bold about
their faith, and that just firesme up.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Let's just go to that idea of cool David, because you
were just saying to me thatgrowing up there were only two
rugby league players that wereChristian, and that has changed.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, certainly.
Growing up in the 90s as arugby league fan, I remember two
guys, brad Mackay and JasonStevens, who were openly public
Christians.
I can't think of any more.
Brad Thorne maybe.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Dave.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Simmons, dave Simmons , but that was later.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, and so in the 90s I remember, and Jason,
I remember being mocked forbeing Christian.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
He was on the footy show.
He handled it brilliantly Likeit was all banter, but he had a
book Born Again, virgin orsomething and anyway.
So he would be mocked for it.
But gentle banter, but not withany sort of cultural awareness
of Christianity at all.
On the footy show.
But if you fast forward totoday you will see at the end of
every game a prayer circle ofplayers.
Now this has largely beeninfluenced by the Pacific
(04:10):
Islander community, who now makeup just shy, I think, in fact
maybe even over 50% of the rugbyleague playing community.
Penrith Panthers have won thelast four seasons.
At the end of every game thereis a prayer circle of them and
their opposition kneeling downpraying and that's resulted in a
huge shift culturally.
I've got a nephew who's in oneof the NRL junior squads and
(04:32):
it's completely normal andencouraged by his Pacific
Islander coach that he would goto church.
And yet I remember playingfooty as a teenager and you know
that was never the attitude.
It was never like that.
It was.
Christians are weird, dags,losers, that kind of thing,
whereas now, culturally speaking, that's just.
It's not the case.
(04:52):
Now that's not the same as arevival or anything like this,
but certainly with that culturalmove.
It's meant that for young menin particular, so susceptible to
peer pressure, standing up forJesus I think has never been.
It's hard for me to say, but Ithink it's never been easier in
my lifetime anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah.
So I mean, if I just talk herefor a moment and just moving
from youth to young adults,we've run an evangelistic course
introducing God roughly once aterm for a decade and it's
either been 50-50 male andfemale or slightly more women.
But for the first time thisterm we've got 70% men guests
(05:31):
and 30% women guests, and sowhat are you hearing amongst
young adults and evangelismcourses and things like that?
Yeah in preparation.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, that's right, and I've run courses like this
for 10 years, every term as well, and in preparation for the
interview, I asked a bunch ofmates hey, give me your stats,
what's going on?
And it is over 50% of thecourses would have men under the
age of 35 as being making upover 50% of the people coming.
Now what's interesting, though,I'd offer, is that some of them
(06:03):
had no men.
Some of them had over 50% ofthe people coming.
Now what's interesting, though,I'd offer, is that some of them
had no men, some of them hadall men, and so there is
patterns about what they'redoing that's connecting.
So it's not just as simple ashey, just open the doors and
young men are going to stream in.
I don't think that's the case,but I do think there is a
pattern of, but I do think thereis a pattern of intentional,
(06:28):
proactive ministry that engagesmen and young men effectively
and without the blockage that isthere and we'll talk about why
that is, but without thatblockage, there is absolutely an
openness for them to come andsit, and courses are wonderful
places for them to do that, tohave their questions answered,
to discuss, to listen terrificthings.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So yeah, let's go to Katie Stringer.
Katie, you're involved inlunchtime groups at schools.
What's your sense of what'sgoing on on the ground?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, look for me like what Andy was saying.
It's so noticeable especially.
You know I've been in thisspace for eight years.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Noticable.
That's a key word.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Yes, it's very noticeable.
So my lunchtime groups oftenare filled with boys, even at
co-ed schools, the people thatare coming up to ask questions
at the end, to request things toread.
The people that we're seeingbecome Christian in the last
couple of years has been a lotof young men, which is thrilling
(07:22):
.
I think it's a thrill whenanybody finds the Lord, jesus
Christ and is captivated by thatand wants to give their life to
Christ.
But I did actually, like Davesaid, go and ask people what
they think.
I've had conversations withI've got two teenage daughters
at home and fascinatingly, theirresponse was very similar to
(07:43):
when I asked a class at one ofmy schools.
I said you know, what do youthink?
Why is it that more of yourfriends are interested in
Christianity than ever before?
And they said this TikTok trend, which was Jim goals God,
apparently it's a thing, and Ijust found that really
fascinating.
Like Dave was saying, it's nolonger uncool and daggy to be a
(08:04):
Christian.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There's actually a better story there.
So they're saying the threecool things are fitness, gym.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Fitness gym.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Being rich.
Oh, no, no, no gym God goals.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Oh, goals.
I thought you said gold.
No, gym God goals.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Right, okay, well, that was a good clarification,
absolutely, so just unpack thosefor me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, totally.
So I think that a lot of youngpeople especially coming out of
I obviously am not in touch withTikTok there.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, look, neither am I.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I'm having to you know go to the younger
generation, to ask them.
But I think that, especiallycoming out of COVID, I think
there is a sense where peopleare wanting to hitch their life
to a purpose.
You know, I think there'salways been a trend to you know,
well, okay, I better look aftermy body.
And then that second thing ofwell, I better look after my
spirit Maybe I do need to get intouch with is there a God?
(08:55):
Perhaps Jesus has answers thatI've never encountered or
interrogated before, because thereality is most young people
are not growing up with a Sundayschool background.
So, yeah, that's a logicalthing for them.
And then they're out of that,out of the fruit of those two
disciplines is this idea thatthey're going to have goals and
be able to achieve them and have, you know, a life that they can
(09:17):
be proud of.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Let's go and check some stats and we'll put it up
on the screen here.
This is from Great Britain,from the YouGov survey, but
really amazing the line.
I believe there is a God.
There are gods.
In August 2019, it was 23% of18 to 24-year-olds and in
(09:41):
January, the 29th 2025, 45% of18 to 24-year-olds.
I mean, that's a kind of sit upand take notice stat, andy.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, when I heard you say that stat before, I was
thinking about COVID.
Right, people coming out ofCOVID going.
What's wrong with the world,all these things that I sort of
held to know as true and myinsecurities weren't as there as
much.
That's all been blown apart,and I think that was the first
thing that came to mind when Iheard you mention that stat
(10:13):
before.
People are asking, well, whatis real, what is truth?
Yeah, their whole worldviewkind of shattered in some ways.
That was my first thing, katie.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that statistic is really
fascinating, isn't it?
Even just this last week, I hada young guy come up to me and
his big, burning question thathe wanted to ask he wasn't a
Christian was you know, you'resaying your God of the Bible has
the right to decide what'sright and what's wrong.
I want to talk about that.
I thought that was reallyfascinating, and I did actually
(10:44):
ask him.
I said are you asking me thatquestion?
Because you find that what'sright and what's wrong is quite
variable right now.
And he said yes, that's whathe's wanting to talk about.
I think there is a sense thatthe morality that our culture is
promoting seems like it gotinvented recently, and so
there's a desire to perhaps goto something that has a much
(11:07):
longer history and a muchstronger foundation upon which
to build a life.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Okay, we'll dig into morality, because I mean I want
to put up this London Timesreport on the screen.
But the headline in the LondonTimes just a couple of weeks ago
Gen Zers on why they've turnedto God it's a beautiful thing
waiting for sex.
They're the generation leastlikely to describe themselves as
atheists and 62% of 18 to24-year-olds say they're very or
(11:36):
fairly spiritual.
What's behind?
I mean, david Jensen, it'sbeautiful waiting for sex.
Gen Zers on why they've turnedto God.
I mean, we didn't expect to seethat in the London Times.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
No, I think it's worth the same with the stat
earlier.
It's worth considering not onlywhat's happened now but what
the blockages were before, sothat the number was so low
before.
What were the things that weregoing on that were making
hostility, apathy,objectionability to faith so
prevalent?
And listen to use the socialmedia thing.
(12:10):
And I would argue, actually,that if we can't see the really
obvious connection to evenTrump's re-election, the whole
range of things going on hereand the instability of society,
to say what's happened is thegate.
I think part of potentiallywhat's happened is the
gatekeepers of information.
(12:30):
Mainstream media have beendestroyed.
They are not the gatekeepers ofinformation or influence
anymore.
Discredited, discredited, yeah,and that's meant the new voices
that speak in will either bepresenting something that is pro
the gold god, whatever thing itwas, or it could be strongly
(12:51):
anti.
But it has meant theconversation is no longer off
the table.
Our 14, 15, 16-year-olds, menand women.
They're hearing conversationsabout transgenderism, sexuality,
at a level that I don't thinkI'd ever considered, but they're
confronted with thiscontinually, unfiltered, and
(13:11):
that is allowing them, I think,to begin to see hey, the water
the world offers here it reallyis toilet water and there are
other options available outthere that are not just my
grandmother's church or whatever, but actually there's people of
influence, intelligent,thoughtful people, and so that's
potentially that removing theblockage of the gatekeepers of
sort of liberal influence Ithink has been a wonderful thing
(13:35):
for culture, but I think it'sbeen potentially part of the
reason why we have thisspiritual opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, so let's move from the what to the why, and
Dave's just started us on that.
Andy, what do you want to sayabout why this change?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, so there's been many things rolling around in
my mind, but I think in a bit ofa scattergun answer.
You see that the rise ofsomeone like Andrew Tate, who's
promoted this toxic masculinityat the worst, picture, in one
sense, I think that young menI've talked to young men about
(14:07):
this and they've just looked atme and said this is wrong.
And they know that it's wrongand they can't even explain why
it's wrong in great detail, butthey want to run away from that.
They hear people like JordanPeterson saying things that you
know he's polarising in onesense, but he's saying things
that other people, a lot ofpeople, are standing up going oh
(14:27):
, there's some truth here Makingit doesn't sound like a bad
idea.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
There's, like you know, actually we need to kind
of get on with our life and takeresponsibility for ourselves,
and you know there's someelements there that are really
helpful.
And I think young men are goingoh, I want to actually latch
onto that because I'm hearingall these debates about gender,
I'm seeing the morality pictureof society and just going, this
is rubbish.
I was talking to some young menon the weekend and they were
(14:51):
like oh, we're just sick oftalking about gender at youth
group and answers to all thesethings.
We just want to hold ontothings that are real and run
hard with that.
And so when you look at Jesusand when the truth that he is, I
think that that's veryappealing and it's real and it's
authentic.
And you know, young peopletoday, authenticity is the
(15:12):
highest bar.
That's what they're looking for.
So I think all of that togetherthrown into the melting pot for
young men, that's why Jesus isbecoming an answer, which should
be no surprise to us at all.
I'm very thankful for theconversations we're having.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Katie Stringer.
I mean you could say a coupleof years ago that every message
that a young man got was you'rebad, you're the danger, you're
the problem, yep, and I'mlooking for something where I
could potentially be positive.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
A hundred percent.
I think the reality for youngmen is that the story that the
secular culture is giving themis no story at all.
You know, they're oppressive,they're violent, they should be
quiet, they shouldn't bespeaking in this space, and yet
the Bible is giving themfantastic role models,
especially in the person ofJesus Christ.
(16:06):
They're not stupid.
They're intelligent to be ableto read these stories and see
how extraordinary he is, thathe's unmatched.
You know he is unmatched.
And also, I think what is avery compelling story,
especially if you aren'tfamiliar with the Bible yet, is
the story of your friend who isa Christian.
And I have seen young menbecome Christian in schools
(16:26):
through the power of friendshipwith other men and seeing you
know like this is.
You know what a simple bit ofevangelism is this?
But a guy that we knew and hewas involved in some pretty dark
stuff and he had a mate who wasa Christian and he said to him
why are you so different, I mean, or why are you so nice?
And this guy, his answer was,oh, because of Jesus.
(16:47):
He didn't have a profoundanswer, but simply, in saying
that, it made this guy go.
Okay, I might need to plug intosome of the stuff that you're
doing because you are sodifferent to you know the other
people that I'm hanging out with.
He was in a gang.
He ended up going to this guy'syouth group and gave his life
to Christ.
Like that's incredible.
So I think, yes, obviouslyinteracting with God's word is
(17:08):
the spiritual stuff that's goingto transform people.
But you know, we meet God inthe word and through his people.
So I think, yeah, don'tdiscount the fact that there are
some fantastic male role modelsout there that are actually
living for Christ.
Certainly, I see it in schoolsand it's not only, you know,
courageous, but it's verycompelling, it's very attractive
(17:29):
and their friends are noticing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Dave.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Katie hit on, I think , the main point, which is that
for adults for kids as well, I'msure, but my world has been
abandoned to adults for 10 yearsover 90% of adults who become
Christians as adults they've gotone thing in common and it is
that they know a Christian.
Now, that doesn't need to be afriend, it could be a bus driver
(17:55):
, it could be someone of anylevel of connection, but they
know a Christian and that theywould point to that Christian's
implicit or explicit influenceon their investigation of the
greatest friend of all, jesus,and that that Christian has
usually been willing to helpthem make that next step.
(18:16):
Now that next step may besitting down and reading the
Bible.
Usually it's not.
Usually it's bringing them to alunchtime group, a church course
, whatever it is to meet otherChristians, and here's the
compelling part is, in thechurches that I've seen and I've
worked in several who see a lotof young men, one for Christ,
the key thing that you noticethat they're doing is they're
(18:37):
engaging their Christian men inevangelism, and that doesn't
mean everyone there is doingwalk-up or door-knocking, but it
means that they may be involvedin the evangelistic course.
They may be on a Sunday lookingout for non-Christians any
number of things but thenon-Christian if we're talking
about men, the non-Christian manit's not that they see a guy
(18:59):
with neck tattoos and hear ahunting story up the front in a
sermon.
That connects with them, it'sthat they meet Christians.
Now, that shouldn't surprise us, that we want non-Christians to
meet more Christians.
So what that means is that Ithink that big connector of
going hey, if our Christian men,if we're talking about men, if
(19:21):
our Christian men and women,though, can be bold enough to
bring invitation, invite, shareand to meet other Christians,
then that's the way we see moreand more people converted.
But I'm not surprised by any ofthis that God has not done in
Australia, he's not done savingpeople.
People become Christians everyday, and primarily through that
(19:41):
means.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So when I spoke to you two, three weeks ago you
said I'll check with the missionpastors of the churches of
Sydney.
And then you've come back to mein the last couple of days and
said some of the churches areseeing quite a few people saved,
and particularly young mensaved, and you even said that a
(20:02):
couple of minutes ago but somearen't.
What are the churches that aredoing well in this space doing
particularly?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
What they're doing is they're doing evangelism that
works well for all people, sothey're not doing nuanced like
UFC church you know like, oh,we're going to do an arm
wrestling competition for Jesus,like that is a huge error, that
we think, oh well, I'm going toanalyse culture now and I've
got to become more masculine.
It's not like that, it's notthis surface level thing.
(20:33):
All they're doing simply isthey're doing evangelism that
connects well with all people.
Now, what is that?
Well, there's three principlesthe word plus people, plus time,
so that they're teaching theword in the presence of
prayerful people.
Over time, an evangelisticcourse is primarily what they're
doing, but in that course, forexample, they've got a team of
(20:56):
people in that course whorepresent the demographic of the
church, including men.
And so, as Christian men bringtheir non-Christian friend,
they're meeting other Christianmen who they're sitting with and
talking, and as they're exposedto more and more Christian
friend, they're meeting otherChristian men who they're
sitting with and talking, and asthey're exposed to more and
more Christian people, thatbuilds this plausibility and all
this type of thing that go withit.
(21:17):
But that works for 80-year-oldwomen, it works for immigrants,
it works for people from thesubcontinent, from Middle East,
anglos, but it does work foryoung men.
If, particularly, I think, youwork hard at getting the young
men in your church or the peopleyou know, yeah, I would say the
young men in your church or theolder men in your church
involved in what your church isdoing in evangelism.
(21:38):
You must have them there.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
That's essential.
Okay, we'll keep going on this.
Katie Stringer, given whatyou've observed, what might you
hope church leaders would do?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yeah, well, just on what Dave was saying there, I
think something that I haveobserved is I've observed people
from local schools that haveinteracted with Christian
programs bringing themselvesalong to church.
Now I will say I haven't seenfemale students on their own
without their families at churchon a Sunday, but I have seen
male students on their ownwithout their families on a
(22:13):
Sunday and I think that'sawesome.
They're choosing this forthemselves.
I'm assuming they've obviouslytold their parents and their
parents are happy for them toattend.
But I know there's a young manthat does that in your church
and we've got a couple in oursand I think-.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
In fact, the young man sitting behind the desk
doing the video editing for ustoday actually was such a young
man who came to churchindependent of his parents when
he was in year nine.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And look, isn't that theGod-given nature of men?
They are leaders and they'regoing to make decisions for
themselves.
And so, yeah, I find thatreally encouraging.
And I think what is reallyimportant, especially for every
young person at a church, is tofind a pathway of service,
because you know, god has madeus to worship and serve him.
(23:02):
So that's going to help them tofeel connected and purposeful
at church.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Andy.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, you're picking on stuff that I'm thinking about
and involved in quite a lot.
So our leaders in trainingcamps that we run, you had a
fascinating statistic on justtalking about your leaders in
training camp.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Your attendance yeah, Just attendance of the gender
change that's happened there.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah yeah, so traditionally it's had more
girls than boys on camp, thisyear even, and a lot of the
young men there saying, yeah,we're keen to be here, we're
keen to invite our friends andwe had the same statistic,
incidentally, from Sydney Unithe campus there, I think is 57%
female, 43% male and in theirMeet Jesus campaign 2024, 50-50
(23:47):
in the responses on the genderbalance.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Keep going on, lit, yeah, listen.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I mean, we're very much about empowering young
people to be leaders now and Ithink that when young men are
given responsibility and saidyou know, we'll back you, we'll
support you, we'll get aroundyou, but we want to unleash you.
They're just craving it.
And when they getresponsibility they will take it
seriously when they're left.
When we look at young men andwe just go oh yeah, you're a
(24:14):
young man, you'll just be stupid, you'll just do dumb things,
and we just keep letting them dothat and don't give them
anything to do, think about ortake responsibility for.
We reap what we sow.
So I want to see churchescontinuing to empower young men,
get them involved in leadership, get them involved in
decision-making, get theminvolved in helping change the
church.
And, quite seriously, I believeif we get young men empowered,
(24:36):
envisioned and on fire for Jesus, it will change the church more
than any other demographic.
I stand on that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Now just you mentioned I'm thinking dangers.
You know you talked aboutdanger of UFC church or
something like that, but thereis a danger in this cultural
milieu of the Andrew Tate andthings like that.
What are your concerns there?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I think it's more insidious than Andrew Tate.
I think Andrew Tate is almosttoo obvious.
You go.
Oh, that's true.
I actually think it's moralismand it's understanding the small
g gospel of Peterson Rogan,these guys and realising what
they're selling is wicked, it'snot right and it leads people to
(25:23):
hell.
What they're selling isworks-based righteousness, that
there is a God, be good, workhard and you're living that way.
Now that doesn't mean God willnot and he has a billion times
over using that as a gatewaydrug into the gospel.
But I think our mistake would beif we don't see the difference
(25:46):
in the true life-breathinggospel of the Lord Jesus Christ
versus pro-religious moralism.
And that doesn't mean we speakagainst those individuals in the
pulpit, anything like that, butit does mean we need to be
crystal clear on the gospel,what the gospel, the
distinctives of the gospel,grace, grace, grace, grace,
grace.
Because I've noticed over theyears, as these young men have
(26:07):
come to church and evangelisticcourses, often what has led them
in will be the thing thatblocks them.
So what has led them is theywant a quick fix change for
their life.
They want to glow up, spiritualglow up type thing.
They want to be the buff,spiritual version of themselves.
And the gospel is so offensiveand so counter-cultural and so
(26:28):
deeply intrinsically againstbeing strong but rather being
weak, that unless we go clearlywith that, there's every chance
that we sort of don't convertpeople because we miss what's
truly going on.
That's my fear around the place.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
What are the dangers?
You see, Katie.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying, dave, and I
think also too.
I think we don't forget thatthe gospel message is also
courageous, like it is acourageous step to choose Jesus.
I don't know who chooses us,but do you know what I mean?
To actually live out your faithwherever you are?
As a young Christian, whetheryou're a man or a woman, that is
(27:08):
a courageous step.
So I think it's important totap into the things that they're
searching for, in the sense ofyou know, as I said before, the
story that they are being givento inhabit is pathetic I think
you described it as toilet waterbut the story of what they can
(27:31):
do with their lives as Christianmen is fantastic.
So we actually do want to, Ithink we do want to promote that
.
Of course, there's going to besuffering, that's.
You know.
Jesus said pick up your cross.
You know, carry your cross andfollow me.
But I think that there's abravery in doing that as well
too, and that's to be commended.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, that's right and I think part of it is what
Andy was saying about theleaders and training thing is
that we want to be shapingpeople around eternity.
So going hey, the envisioningpiece is not to say to the young
man, hey, we need help cleaningup after church and if you
vacuum, the girls will beimpressed.
You can get people to vacuum byenvisioning them around the
eternal reality of the gospel,and saying this makes a
(28:11):
difference.
This matters more than anythingelse, and actually that's not a
light switch.
We turn on in people and thenwe just do it once.
Rather, it's a sense of light.
If we stop moving, it turns off.
We need to be continuallyfeeding that into the minds and
hearts of our people.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Last word, Andy Stevenson.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
On the dangers.
It would break me and break allof us if we missed the
opportunity.
I think that we need to haveour eyes wide open.
I think we need to take hold ofwhat's happening and really
work hard with young people.
Like what these guys have said,we need to be clear on the
gospel, we need to be strong, weneed to make sure that we're
(28:51):
not, you know, promoting someother kind of mythical, you know
, answer to society's kind ofculture, but we need to sort of
keep showing them Jesus clearly.
But we need to also just getalongside them.
And if we don't do that, if wejust keep ignoring what's
happening or trying to do otherthings that aren't helping young
(29:12):
people, and particularly inthis case young men I mean young
women as well.
I'm a big fan of saying helpyoung people, get more involved,
and that will help lead thechurch for change now and in the
future, of course.
But yeah, we're seeingsomething special in one sense
and I think the big danger forme is if we miss.
Yeah, we're seeing somethingspecial in one sense and I think
, if the big danger for me is wemiss it, we're going to miss a
lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Andy Stevenson.
He heads the youth ministrysupport team for Anglican Youth
Works.
Katie Stringer has been with us.
She's involved in schoolsministry in a range of high
schools across Sydney's innerwest.
And Dave Jensen works withevangelism and new churches,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in evangel West.
And Dave Jensen works withevangelism and new churches,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in evangelism, and will
be a keynote speaker at theNexus Conference being held in
(29:55):
Sydney in a couple of weeks'time.
And if you're around the Sydneyregion and haven't yet
registered, well you know whatto do.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Thanks for being with us on thePastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel and the
panel today, andy stevenson,dave jensen and katie stringer.
There is something going on.
There's a shift in the culture.
I don't want to overstate it,but something is happening that
is different among young peopleand maybe especially among young
men.
What's happening?
Why is it happening?
The churches that are seeingmore young people saved, more
(00:31):
young men saved.
What are they doing and howshould the church leader respond
and what are the dangers?
What are the things to watchout for?
We are hearing reports fromuniversity campuses, from young
adult ministries and from youthgroups that there is an
increasing openness to thegospel of Jesus and a new
(00:51):
openness among young men.
Just let that sentence sink in.
There's a greater biblicalignorance in the rising
generation, but significantlymore openness.
There's less hostility whencompared to a decade ago.
Walk-up evangelism is easierand people are more open to
(01:12):
discussing their views on Jesusand people are being saved.
Young men are being saved.
Andy Stevenson is with us.
He heads the youth ministrysupport team for Anglican Youth
Works.
Dave Jensen is here.
He works with evangelism andnew churches here in Sydney,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in their evangelism,
and he's one of the keynotespeakers at the Nexus Ministry
(01:35):
Conference being held here inSydney in a few weeks' time, and
Katie Stringer is with us.
Katie is involved in schoolsministry at a range of high
schools in Sydney's secularinner west.
We're going to start withwhat's going on, but, andy
Stevenson, as somebody who'sspent 20 years working hard in
(01:55):
ministry to young people, I takeit your pastor's heart is
excited.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, very much so.
I mean I've seen many thingsover the 20 years or more.
Now it makes me feel a bit old,but I've been very thankful and
privileged to be part of what'shappening in youth ministry
across Sydney and beyond.
But I am seeing in one sense abit of a resurgence,
particularly among young men inyouth group and seeing youth
(02:20):
groups having more boys there.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Because that's not been the case, has it?
It's been more girls than boysfor a long time.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, generally I'm in a position where I get to
visit a lot of youth groups andyou know, anecdotally, two out
of three have more girls thanboys.
But lately, in visiting youthgroups and chatting to youth
ministers, there's more boysaround and I think that's pretty
exciting.
And they're not just there forthe girls, despite popular
belief, although some might be,but they're there because
(02:50):
there's a bit of a hunger.
They want to know what'shappening, who's this Jesus guy?
They want to know truth.
There are big questions comingout of COVID.
Spirituality is not a weirdthing anymore.
In fact, I don't know whether Iwant to say it's cool, but I
want to say it's definitely onthe agenda and I have three
young sons and even they'retalking about it, which is wild.
So, yeah, and I'm seeing moreand more young people become
(03:14):
Christians, young men becomeChristians and being bold about
their faith, and that just firesme up.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Let's just go to that idea of cool David, because you
were just saying to me thatgrowing up there were only two
rugby league players that wereChristian, and that has changed.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, certainly.
Growing up in the 90s as arugby league fan, I remember two
guys, brad Mackay and JasonStevens, who were openly public
Christians.
I can't think of any more.
Brad Thorne maybe.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Dave.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Simmons, dave Simmons , but that was later.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, and so in the 90s I remember, and Jason,
I remember being mocked forbeing Christian.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
He was on the footy show.
He handled it brilliantly Likeit was all banter, but he had a
book Born Again, virgin orsomething and anyway.
So he would be mocked for it.
But gentle banter, but not withany sort of cultural awareness
of Christianity at all.
On the footy show.
But if you fast forward totoday you will see at the end of
every game a prayer circle ofplayers.
Now this has largely beeninfluenced by the Pacific
(04:10):
Islander community, who now makeup just shy, I think, in fact
maybe even over 50% of the rugbyleague playing community.
Penrith Panthers have won thelast four seasons.
At the end of every game thereis a prayer circle of them and
their opposition kneeling downpraying and that's resulted in a
huge shift culturally.
I've got a nephew who's in oneof the NRL junior squads and
(04:32):
it's completely normal andencouraged by his Pacific
Islander coach that he would goto church.
And yet I remember playingfooty as a teenager and you know
that was never the attitude.
It was never like that.
It was.
Christians are weird, dags,losers, that kind of thing,
whereas now, culturally speaking, that's just.
It's not the case.
(04:52):
Now that's not the same as arevival or anything like this,
but certainly with that culturalmove.
It's meant that for young menin particular, so susceptible to
peer pressure, standing up forJesus I think has never been.
It's hard for me to say, but Ithink it's never been easier in
my lifetime anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah.
So I mean, if I just talk herefor a moment and just moving
from youth to young adults,we've run an evangelistic course
introducing God roughly once aterm for a decade and it's
either been 50-50 male andfemale or slightly more women.
But for the first time thisterm we've got 70% men guests
(05:31):
and 30% women guests, and sowhat are you hearing amongst
young adults and evangelismcourses and things like that?
Yeah in preparation.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, that's right, and I've run courses like this
for 10 years, every term as well, and in preparation for the
interview, I asked a bunch ofmates hey, give me your stats,
what's going on?
And it is over 50% of thecourses would have men under the
age of 35 as being making upover 50% of the people coming.
Now what's interesting, though,I'd offer, is that some of them
(06:03):
had no men.
Some of them had over 50% ofthe people coming.
Now what's interesting, though,I'd offer, is that some of them
had no men, some of them hadall men, and so there is
patterns about what they'redoing that's connecting.
So it's not just as simple ashey, just open the doors and
young men are going to stream in.
I don't think that's the case,but I do think there is a
pattern of, but I do think thereis a pattern of intentional,
(06:28):
proactive ministry that engagesmen and young men effectively
and without the blockage that isthere and we'll talk about why
that is, but without thatblockage, there is absolutely an
openness for them to come andsit, and courses are wonderful
places for them to do that, tohave their questions answered,
to discuss, to listen terrificthings.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So yeah, let's go to Katie Stringer.
Katie, you're involved inlunchtime groups at schools.
What's your sense of what'sgoing on on the ground?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, look for me like what Andy was saying.
It's so noticeable especially.
You know I've been in thisspace for eight years.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Noticable.
That's a key word.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Yes, it's very noticeable.
So my lunchtime groups oftenare filled with boys, even at
co-ed schools, the people thatare coming up to ask questions
at the end, to request things toread.
The people that we're seeingbecome Christian in the last
couple of years has been a lotof young men, which is thrilling
(07:22):
.
I think it's a thrill whenanybody finds the Lord, jesus
Christ and is captivated by thatand wants to give their life to
Christ.
But I did actually, like Davesaid, go and ask people what
they think.
I've had conversations withI've got two teenage daughters
at home and fascinatingly, theirresponse was very similar to
(07:43):
when I asked a class at one ofmy schools.
I said you know, what do youthink?
Why is it that more of yourfriends are interested in
Christianity than ever before?
And they said this TikTok trend, which was Jim goals God,
apparently it's a thing, and Ijust found that really
fascinating.
Like Dave was saying, it's nolonger uncool and daggy to be a
(08:04):
Christian.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There's actually a better story there.
So they're saying the threecool things are fitness, gym.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Fitness gym.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Being rich.
Oh, no, no, no gym God goals.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Oh, goals.
I thought you said gold.
No, gym God goals.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Right, okay, well, that was a good clarification,
absolutely, so just unpack thosefor me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yeah, totally.
So I think that a lot of youngpeople especially coming out of
I obviously am not in touch withTikTok there.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, look, neither am I.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I'm having to you know go to the younger
generation, to ask them.
But I think that, especiallycoming out of COVID, I think
there is a sense where peopleare wanting to hitch their life
to a purpose.
You know, I think there'salways been a trend to you know,
well, okay, I better look aftermy body.
And then that second thing ofwell, I better look after my
spirit Maybe I do need to get intouch with is there a God?
(08:55):
Perhaps Jesus has answers thatI've never encountered or
interrogated before, because thereality is most young people
are not growing up with a Sundayschool background.
So, yeah, that's a logicalthing for them.
And then they're out of that,out of the fruit of those two
disciplines is this idea thatthey're going to have goals and
be able to achieve them and have, you know, a life that they can
(09:17):
be proud of.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Let's go and check some stats and we'll put it up
on the screen here.
This is from Great Britain,from the YouGov survey, but
really amazing the line.
I believe there is a God.
There are gods.
In August 2019, it was 23% of18 to 24-year-olds and in
(09:41):
January, the 29th 2025, 45% of18 to 24-year-olds.
I mean, that's a kind of sit upand take notice stat, andy.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, when I heard you say that stat before, I was
thinking about COVID.
Right, people coming out ofCOVID going.
What's wrong with the world,all these things that I sort of
held to know as true and myinsecurities weren't as there as
much.
That's all been blown apart,and I think that was the first
thing that came to mind when Iheard you mention that stat
(10:13):
before.
People are asking, well, whatis real, what is truth?
Yeah, their whole worldviewkind of shattered in some ways.
That was my first thing, katie.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that statistic is really
fascinating, isn't it?
Even just this last week, I hada young guy come up to me and
his big, burning question thathe wanted to ask he wasn't a
Christian was you know, you'resaying your God of the Bible has
the right to decide what'sright and what's wrong.
I want to talk about that.
I thought that was reallyfascinating, and I did actually
(10:44):
ask him.
I said are you asking me thatquestion?
Because you find that what'sright and what's wrong is quite
variable right now.
And he said yes, that's whathe's wanting to talk about.
I think there is a sense thatthe morality that our culture is
promoting seems like it gotinvented recently, and so
there's a desire to perhaps goto something that has a much
(11:07):
longer history and a muchstronger foundation upon which
to build a life.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Okay, we'll dig into morality, because I mean I want
to put up this London Timesreport on the screen.
But the headline in the LondonTimes just a couple of weeks ago
Gen Zers on why they've turnedto God it's a beautiful thing
waiting for sex.
They're the generation leastlikely to describe themselves as
atheists and 62% of 18 to24-year-olds say they're very or
(11:36):
fairly spiritual.
What's behind?
I mean, david Jensen, it'sbeautiful waiting for sex.
Gen Zers on why they've turnedto God.
I mean, we didn't expect to seethat in the London Times.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
No, I think it's worth the same with the stat
earlier.
It's worth considering not onlywhat's happened now but what
the blockages were before, sothat the number was so low
before.
What were the things that weregoing on that were making
hostility, apathy,objectionability to faith so
prevalent?
And listen to use the socialmedia thing.
(12:10):
And I would argue, actually,that if we can't see the really
obvious connection to evenTrump's re-election, the whole
range of things going on hereand the instability of society,
to say what's happened is thegate.
I think part of potentiallywhat's happened is the
gatekeepers of information.
(12:30):
Mainstream media have beendestroyed.
They are not the gatekeepers ofinformation or influence
anymore.
Discredited, discredited, yeah,and that's meant the new voices
that speak in will either bepresenting something that is pro
the gold god, whatever thing itwas, or it could be strongly
(12:51):
anti.
But it has meant theconversation is no longer off
the table.
Our 14, 15, 16-year-olds, menand women.
They're hearing conversationsabout transgenderism, sexuality,
at a level that I don't thinkI'd ever considered, but they're
confronted with thiscontinually, unfiltered, and
(13:11):
that is allowing them, I think,to begin to see hey, the water
the world offers here it reallyis toilet water and there are
other options available outthere that are not just my
grandmother's church or whatever, but actually there's people of
influence, intelligent,thoughtful people, and so that's
potentially that removing theblockage of the gatekeepers of
sort of liberal influence Ithink has been a wonderful thing
(13:35):
for culture, but I think it'sbeen potentially part of the
reason why we have thisspiritual opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, so let's move from the what to the why, and
Dave's just started us on that.
Andy, what do you want to sayabout why this change?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, so there's been many things rolling around in
my mind, but I think in a bit ofa scattergun answer.
You see that the rise ofsomeone like Andrew Tate, who's
promoted this toxic masculinityat the worst, picture, in one
sense, I think that young menI've talked to young men about
(14:07):
this and they've just looked atme and said this is wrong.
And they know that it's wrongand they can't even explain why
it's wrong in great detail, butthey want to run away from that.
They hear people like JordanPeterson saying things that you
know he's polarising in onesense, but he's saying things
that other people, a lot ofpeople, are standing up going oh
(14:27):
, there's some truth here Makingit doesn't sound like a bad
idea.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
There's, like you know, actually we need to kind
of get on with our life and takeresponsibility for ourselves,
and you know there's someelements there that are really
helpful.
And I think young men are goingoh, I want to actually latch
onto that because I'm hearingall these debates about gender,
I'm seeing the morality pictureof society and just going, this
is rubbish.
I was talking to some young menon the weekend and they were
(14:51):
like oh, we're just sick oftalking about gender at youth
group and answers to all thesethings.
We just want to hold ontothings that are real and run
hard with that.
And so when you look at Jesusand when the truth that he is, I
think that that's veryappealing and it's real and it's
authentic.
And you know, young peopletoday, authenticity is the
(15:12):
highest bar.
That's what they're looking for.
So I think all of that togetherthrown into the melting pot for
young men, that's why Jesus isbecoming an answer, which should
be no surprise to us at all.
I'm very thankful for theconversations we're having.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Katie Stringer.
I mean you could say a coupleof years ago that every message
that a young man got was you'rebad, you're the danger, you're
the problem, yep, and I'mlooking for something where I
could potentially be positive.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
A hundred percent.
I think the reality for youngmen is that the story that the
secular culture is giving themis no story at all.
You know, they're oppressive,they're violent, they should be
quiet, they shouldn't bespeaking in this space, and yet
the Bible is giving themfantastic role models,
especially in the person ofJesus Christ.
(16:06):
They're not stupid.
They're intelligent to be ableto read these stories and see
how extraordinary he is, thathe's unmatched.
You know he is unmatched.
And also, I think what is avery compelling story,
especially if you aren'tfamiliar with the Bible yet, is
the story of your friend who isa Christian.
And I have seen young menbecome Christian in schools
(16:26):
through the power of friendshipwith other men and seeing you
know like this is.
You know what a simple bit ofevangelism is this?
But a guy that we knew and hewas involved in some pretty dark
stuff and he had a mate who wasa Christian and he said to him
why are you so different, I mean, or why are you so nice?
And this guy, his answer was,oh, because of Jesus.
(16:47):
He didn't have a profoundanswer, but simply, in saying
that, it made this guy go.
Okay, I might need to plug intosome of the stuff that you're
doing because you are sodifferent to you know the other
people that I'm hanging out with.
He was in a gang.
He ended up going to this guy'syouth group and gave his life
to Christ.
Like that's incredible.
So I think, yes, obviouslyinteracting with God's word is
(17:08):
the spiritual stuff that's goingto transform people.
But you know, we meet God inthe word and through his people.
So I think, yeah, don'tdiscount the fact that there are
some fantastic male role modelsout there that are actually
living for Christ.
Certainly, I see it in schoolsand it's not only, you know,
courageous, but it's verycompelling, it's very attractive
(17:29):
and their friends are noticing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Dave.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Katie hit on, I think , the main point, which is that
for adults for kids as well, I'msure, but my world has been
abandoned to adults for 10 yearsover 90% of adults who become
Christians as adults they've gotone thing in common and it is
that they know a Christian.
Now, that doesn't need to be afriend, it could be a bus driver
(17:55):
, it could be someone of anylevel of connection, but they
know a Christian and that theywould point to that Christian's
implicit or explicit influenceon their investigation of the
greatest friend of all, jesus,and that that Christian has
usually been willing to helpthem make that next step.
(18:16):
Now that next step may besitting down and reading the
Bible.
Usually it's not.
Usually it's bringing them to alunchtime group, a church course
, whatever it is to meet otherChristians, and here's the
compelling part is, in thechurches that I've seen and I've
worked in several who see a lotof young men, one for Christ,
the key thing that you noticethat they're doing is they're
(18:37):
engaging their Christian men inevangelism, and that doesn't
mean everyone there is doingwalk-up or door-knocking, but it
means that they may be involvedin the evangelistic course.
They may be on a Sunday lookingout for non-Christians any
number of things but thenon-Christian if we're talking
about men, the non-Christian manit's not that they see a guy
(18:59):
with neck tattoos and hear ahunting story up the front in a
sermon.
That connects with them, it'sthat they meet Christians.
Now, that shouldn't surprise us, that we want non-Christians to
meet more Christians.
So what that means is that Ithink that big connector of
going hey, if our Christian men,if we're talking about men, if
(19:21):
our Christian men and women,though, can be bold enough to
bring invitation, invite, shareand to meet other Christians,
then that's the way we see moreand more people converted.
But I'm not surprised by any ofthis that God has not done in
Australia, he's not done savingpeople.
People become Christians everyday, and primarily through that
(19:41):
means.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So when I spoke to you two, three weeks ago you
said I'll check with the missionpastors of the churches of
Sydney.
And then you've come back to mein the last couple of days and
said some of the churches areseeing quite a few people saved,
and particularly young mensaved, and you even said that a
(20:02):
couple of minutes ago but somearen't.
What are the churches that aredoing well in this space doing
particularly?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
What they're doing is they're doing evangelism that
works well for all people, sothey're not doing nuanced like
UFC church you know like, oh,we're going to do an arm
wrestling competition for Jesus,like that is a huge error, that
we think, oh well, I'm going toanalyse culture now and I've
got to become more masculine.
It's not like that, it's notthis surface level thing.
(20:33):
All they're doing simply isthey're doing evangelism that
connects well with all people.
Now, what is that?
Well, there's three principlesthe word plus people, plus time,
so that they're teaching theword in the presence of
prayerful people.
Over time, an evangelisticcourse is primarily what they're
doing, but in that course, forexample, they've got a team of
(20:56):
people in that course whorepresent the demographic of the
church, including men.
And so, as Christian men bringtheir non-Christian friend,
they're meeting other Christianmen who they're sitting with and
talking, and as they're exposedto more and more Christian
friend, they're meeting otherChristian men who they're
sitting with and talking, and asthey're exposed to more and
more Christian people, thatbuilds this plausibility and all
this type of thing that go withit.
(21:17):
But that works for 80-year-oldwomen, it works for immigrants,
it works for people from thesubcontinent, from Middle East,
anglos, but it does work foryoung men.
If, particularly, I think, youwork hard at getting the young
men in your church or the peopleyou know, yeah, I would say the
young men in your church or theolder men in your church
involved in what your church isdoing in evangelism.
(21:38):
You must have them there.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
That's essential.
Okay, we'll keep going on this.
Katie Stringer, given whatyou've observed, what might you
hope church leaders would do?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yeah, well, just on what Dave was saying there, I
think something that I haveobserved is I've observed people
from local schools that haveinteracted with Christian
programs bringing themselvesalong to church.
Now I will say I haven't seenfemale students on their own
without their families at churchon a Sunday, but I have seen
male students on their ownwithout their families on a
(22:13):
Sunday and I think that'sawesome.
They're choosing this forthemselves.
I'm assuming they've obviouslytold their parents and their
parents are happy for them toattend.
But I know there's a young manthat does that in your church
and we've got a couple in oursand I think-.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
In fact, the young man sitting behind the desk
doing the video editing for ustoday actually was such a young
man who came to churchindependent of his parents when
he was in year nine.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And look, isn't that theGod-given nature of men?
They are leaders and they'regoing to make decisions for
themselves.
And so, yeah, I find thatreally encouraging.
And I think what is reallyimportant, especially for every
young person at a church, is tofind a pathway of service,
because you know, god has madeus to worship and serve him.
(23:02):
So that's going to help them tofeel connected and purposeful
at church.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Andy.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, you're picking on stuff that I'm thinking about
and involved in quite a lot.
So our leaders in trainingcamps that we run, you had a
fascinating statistic on justtalking about your leaders in
training camp.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Your attendance yeah, Just attendance of the gender
change that's happened there.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah yeah, so traditionally it's had more
girls than boys on camp, thisyear even, and a lot of the
young men there saying, yeah,we're keen to be here, we're
keen to invite our friends andwe had the same statistic,
incidentally, from Sydney Unithe campus there, I think is 57%
female, 43% male and in theirMeet Jesus campaign 2024, 50-50
(23:47):
in the responses on the genderbalance.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Keep going on, lit, yeah, listen.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I mean, we're very much about empowering young
people to be leaders now and Ithink that when young men are
given responsibility and saidyou know, we'll back you, we'll
support you, we'll get aroundyou, but we want to unleash you.
They're just craving it.
And when they getresponsibility they will take it
seriously when they're left.
When we look at young men andwe just go oh yeah, you're a
(24:14):
young man, you'll just be stupid, you'll just do dumb things,
and we just keep letting them dothat and don't give them
anything to do, think about ortake responsibility for.
We reap what we sow.
So I want to see churchescontinuing to empower young men,
get them involved in leadership, get them involved in
decision-making, get theminvolved in helping change the
church.
And, quite seriously, I believeif we get young men empowered,
(24:36):
envisioned and on fire for Jesus, it will change the church more
than any other demographic.
I stand on that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Now just you mentioned I'm thinking dangers.
You know you talked aboutdanger of UFC church or
something like that, but thereis a danger in this cultural
milieu of the Andrew Tate andthings like that.
What are your concerns there?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I think it's more insidious than Andrew Tate.
I think Andrew Tate is almosttoo obvious.
You go.
Oh, that's true.
I actually think it's moralismand it's understanding the small
g gospel of Peterson Rogan,these guys and realising what
they're selling is wicked, it'snot right and it leads people to
(25:23):
hell.
What they're selling isworks-based righteousness, that
there is a God, be good, workhard and you're living that way.
Now that doesn't mean God willnot and he has a billion times
over using that as a gatewaydrug into the gospel.
But I think our mistake would beif we don't see the difference
(25:46):
in the true life-breathinggospel of the Lord Jesus Christ
versus pro-religious moralism.
And that doesn't mean we speakagainst those individuals in the
pulpit, anything like that, butit does mean we need to be
crystal clear on the gospel,what the gospel, the
distinctives of the gospel,grace, grace, grace, grace,
grace.
Because I've noticed over theyears, as these young men have
(26:07):
come to church and evangelisticcourses, often what has led them
in will be the thing thatblocks them.
So what has led them is theywant a quick fix change for
their life.
They want to glow up, spiritualglow up type thing.
They want to be the buff,spiritual version of themselves.
And the gospel is so offensiveand so counter-cultural and so
(26:28):
deeply intrinsically againstbeing strong but rather being
weak, that unless we go clearlywith that, there's every chance
that we sort of don't convertpeople because we miss what's
truly going on.
That's my fear around the place.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
What are the dangers?
You see, Katie.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying, dave, and I
think also too.
I think we don't forget thatthe gospel message is also
courageous, like it is acourageous step to choose Jesus.
I don't know who chooses us,but do you know what I mean?
To actually live out your faithwherever you are?
As a young Christian, whetheryou're a man or a woman, that is
(27:08):
a courageous step.
So I think it's important totap into the things that they're
searching for, in the sense ofyou know, as I said before, the
story that they are being givento inhabit is pathetic I think
you described it as toilet waterbut the story of what they can
(27:31):
do with their lives as Christianmen is fantastic.
So we actually do want to, Ithink we do want to promote that
.
Of course, there's going to besuffering, that's.
You know.
Jesus said pick up your cross.
You know, carry your cross andfollow me.
But I think that there's abravery in doing that as well
too, and that's to be commended.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, that's right and I think part of it is what
Andy was saying about theleaders and training thing is
that we want to be shapingpeople around eternity.
So going hey, the envisioningpiece is not to say to the young
man, hey, we need help cleaningup after church and if you
vacuum, the girls will beimpressed.
You can get people to vacuum byenvisioning them around the
eternal reality of the gospel,and saying this makes a
(28:11):
difference.
This matters more than anythingelse, and actually that's not a
light switch.
We turn on in people and thenwe just do it once.
Rather, it's a sense of light.
If we stop moving, it turns off.
We need to be continuallyfeeding that into the minds and
hearts of our people.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Last word, Andy Stevenson.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
On the dangers.
It would break me and break allof us if we missed the
opportunity.
I think that we need to haveour eyes wide open.
I think we need to take hold ofwhat's happening and really
work hard with young people.
Like what these guys have said,we need to be clear on the
gospel, we need to be strong, weneed to make sure that we're
(28:51):
not, you know, promoting someother kind of mythical, you know
, answer to society's kind ofculture, but we need to sort of
keep showing them Jesus clearly.
But we need to also just getalongside them.
And if we don't do that, if wejust keep ignoring what's
happening or trying to do otherthings that aren't helping young
(29:12):
people, and particularly inthis case young men I mean young
women as well.
I'm a big fan of saying helpyoung people, get more involved,
and that will help lead thechurch for change now and in the
future, of course.
But yeah, we're seeingsomething special in one sense
and I think the big danger forme is if we miss.
Yeah, we're seeing somethingspecial in one sense and I think
, if the big danger for me is wemiss it, we're going to miss a
lot more.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Andy Stevenson.
He heads the youth ministrysupport team for Anglican Youth
Works.
Katie Stringer has been with us.
She's involved in schoolsministry in a range of high
schools across Sydney's innerwest.
And Dave Jensen works withevangelism and new churches,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in evangel West.
And Dave Jensen works withevangelism and new churches,
encouraging and mobilisingchurches in evangelism, and will
be a keynote speaker at theNexus Conference being held in
(29:55):
Sydney in a couple of weeks'time.
And if you're around the Sydneyregion and haven't yet
registered, well you know whatto do.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Thanks for being with us on thePastor's Heart.
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!