November 23, 2025 • 33 mins
Paul Donison responds to global reaction to Gafcon’s reset of the Anglican Communion and its declaration that Canterbury’s time is over.
The Lord is removing his Spirit from the Canterbury–Lambeth lampstand, and the centre of global Anglicanism is shifting from London to Africa.
The average Anglican today is not English, not Western, not male — she’s a young African woman in her twenties, probably Nigerian. The Anglican Communion is now catching up with that reality.
Since the Gafcon Primates’ announcement on 16 October 2025 — declaring that Canterbury is out and that the Bible will be the foundation document for a reordered Global Anglican Communion — reaction has been electric: claims of schism, conflict in Ireland, tensions in ACNA, questions about women’s orders, realignments in England, silence from some primates, and fresh courage from others.
And what does this mean for a blended province like Australia?
Gafcon General Secretary Paul Donison joins us with an update on plans for the Global Bishops Gathering in Abuja, Nigeria, 3–6 March 2026.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dominic Steele (00:37):
The Lord is taking away his spirit from the
Canterbury Lambeth Lampstand.
The center of gravity in theAnglican Communion is moving
from Canterbury to Abuja,Nigeria.
It's the Pastor's Heart.
She's probably Nigerian.
(01:06):
And the framework of theAnglican Communion is catching
up with that reality.
And the English colonialistsneed to come to terms with that.
In March 2026, there'll be aconference of Anglican bishops
from all around the world,bishops who are confessionally
Anglican.
That is, they have signed the2008 Jerusalem Declaration.
(01:28):
That meeting will mark theofficial launch of the new
Global Anglicans.
It was six weeks ago thatRwandan primate Archbishop
Laurent Mbanda joined us on thePastor's Heart telling us that
the Anglican Communion is to bereordered, to be reset.
The Archbishop of Canterburyand the Church of England are
out, and the Bible is back, backat the foundation of the
(01:51):
communion.
When we spoke to ArchbishopMbanda, the ink was barely dry
on that statement.
Well since then there's been alot of action and reaction from
all around the world as peoplehave grappled with this news,
tensions and realignments in theAnglican Church in North
America, the situation inIreland, decisions coming out of
(02:12):
the GAFCON Primates Council,questions about women's orders,
schism, and communionrelationships.
And how does it work for amixed province, one like
Australia, where the growingmajority wants to align with the
Bible and the believers inAfrica, and yet there's a
significant minority stillharking back to apostasy and
(02:33):
canterbury.
Well, we start with PaulDonison and the pastor's heart.
And Paul, you were here forthat meeting six weeks ago, and
um you're back.
It's been a busy six weeks foryou.
Paul Donison (02:43):
It's been a very busy six weeks, Dominic.
It's been wonderful, uh, butvery full because the reactions
have been enormous, bothpositive and obviously some
negative.
Um, but you expect that.
If we're saying anything that'simportant, it's gonna get a
variety of responses.
Dominic Steele (02:57):
So tell us, I mean, it was so new, it was
really just an idea on the 15thor so when we spoke last month,
or when I spoke to ArchbishopMbanda last month.
But things are starting tocrystallize.
What is the plan for the Marchmeeting in Abuja, Nigeria?
Paul Donison (03:13):
Yeah, so in March uh in 2026, we're meeting in
Abuja.
We've moved from one of thesenew mini-conferences, global
mini-conferences.
Uh, it's not so many anymore,because the realization is we
need to really have all of theOrthodox bishops invited.
It is a bishops conferenceintentionally.
So the plan will be to meet inAbuja and to really listen
together.
I mean, this is this is theconciliar nature of the church,
(03:36):
have the bishops in the room,all those who've signed the
Jerusalem Declaration, um, andmeet, pray, and hopefully speak
with one voice.
And a lot of the questions thathave emerged since the October
16th statement, we believe a lotof them, you know, by God's
leading, will actually beanswered in the Abuja
conference.
It's got to a point where someof the media outlets keep asking
me for a new update, saying, isthere anything new?
(03:56):
Is there anything new?
And I keep saying, I thinkyou'll probably have to wait
till Abuja.
Abuja will be where somethingnew and fresh comes out of that
conference.
Dominic Steele (04:03):
And then I I take it you're thinking that
there'll be some sort ofceremony, some sort of inaugural
moment.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (04:10):
That's the hope.
I mean, what we said in theOctober 16th statement, what the
primates said was that the uhthe plan would be that a council
of primates, uh, which has beenfrom the beginning of GAFCON,
that we gather our primatestogether, but this council of
primates would together uhelect, choose a Primus Inter
Paris, a first among equals.
We know we're using you knowloaded language by saying that.
(04:32):
Um so that's been theintention.
All the rest that happens, uhhopefully celebrating that
appointment and election, uhbeing able to celebrate other
decisions that come out, this isall gonna be part of Abuja.
Um I mean, uh the odds are theyon Laurent Mbanda?
Well, I think what's importantis that GAFCON's leadership has
(04:54):
really tried to set a reorderingmoment in this.
And so my understanding, andit's yet to be determined when
the bishops gather in Abuja, butmy understanding is that uh the
intention of the October 16thstatement was to say that
there'll be a council ofprimates that gather there,
which we hope is actually evenpotentially a broader alliance
than has been traditionally partof the GAFCON primes.
Dominic Steele (05:13):
Wouldn't it be awesome?
I mean, I I'm I mean my prayeris that um the primate of
Australia might go.
Paul Donison (05:20):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
And and and and if he could sitin the room and be part of that
primates' council, it would beincredible.
I mean, I'm sure he got majorblowback from some places, but
again, the pullers from here.
Well, and that's that's again,anything we do that's important
within uh within gospel ministryis going to r result in all
kinds of reactions.
So our hope is that it would bea broad gathering of those who
(05:40):
can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, and then amongst
them they'll vote.
Now, if they elect ArchbishopUmbanda, that'll be great.
Um, if they elect someone else,that'll be great because it'll
be the Lord's choosing amongstthe primates.
The key thing, though, is thishas not been GAFCON sort of
crowning itself as we are theprimates' council.
GAFCON's leadership has said weneed to have a council of
(06:01):
primates that gather, and thatwill be the reordering moment.
That they will decide.
They will decide.
Dominic Steele (06:07):
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, I'm imagining though,you guys are talking to some of
those primates who are I mean,there's some people who you kind
of know will turn up like theguy from Nigeria, the guy from
since he's hosting it.
I hope he's there.
Arch Bishop Bendiku is vital toall of this, and he's such a
gracious host.
But then there's others thatyou're thinking, we don't know
if they're going to come, weneed to invite them, and you're
(06:28):
out talking to them.
I'm presuming what's going onat the point.
Paul Donison (06:31):
That's a hope that and and it's not just primate
focus.
We really are trying to get abroad group of primates
together, but also bishops.
So our hope is that this couldbe a real gathering moment.
Some bishops who may have beenat conferences years ago, but
maybe have fallen a bit awayfrom the GAFCON movement.
Uh, this would be anopportunity to reach out to the
Trevor Burrus.
So you reach out to SouthSudan, you reach out to the
reach out to everybody, andwe're not going to obviously uh
(06:51):
push hard.
We want people to make goodconscience decisions to go.
Uh, but we really the theinvitation is what?
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration as a bishop in this
communion, we want you there.
We want you part of this.
Dominic Steele (07:03):
So um what about Australia?
I mean, you've you've beentouring Australia.
That's right.
I'm sure you've been gettingquestions like I mean, I don't
know what the definition youmight call Australia a blended
province.
There's a lot of mixed andblended.
Yeah, exactly.
Tell us about your observationshere and what your hopes are
here.
Paul Donison (07:19):
Well, what I've seen here, of course, is that
you go to a place like Sydney,obviously, and there's other
places.
So we we're in Tasmania, andyou see places that have very
strong gospel leadership.
There's a there's a clearcommitment to GAFCON.
Even those places know we needencouragement still.
I mean, that's been the greatthing about coming to Sydney and
having some meetings is to notassume that Sydney's on board,
historically such a huge role,but encourage that, encourage
(07:42):
intentional increasedengagement.
Um, but certainly going toother places, we recognize that
there are people live living andserving a diocese where it is a
mixed blended diocese, um, justlike a mixed blended province.
And we want to be able to sayto those folks, you really can
engage with the global Anglicancommunion.
You can really be part of this.
Um, the obviously the orderedway normally is through a
(08:04):
province.
That's why we have a primatescouncil.
So if a province signs on,that's the most sort of regular
approach.
But then we've got otherdioceses around the world.
I think of Muita Kira out ofTanzania, um, other places where
you've got a singular diocesethat has said, hey, we're fully
GAFCON.
And we found ways to connectthem in and be part of the
Africa.
How do you do that?
Dominic Steele (08:21):
How do you do that with if the the province as
a whole is not with you, ormaybe even in the constitution,
the province can't be with youor is somehow linked to Lambeth
or what Aaron Ross Powell?
Paul Donison (08:33):
And this is the question we get asked a lot
because the challenge is whenyou're when you're living in a
region, for example, where uhlike a diocese like let's let's
pick a diocese in uh Tanzania,in that case with Muay Akira,
his his He's a great guy.
He's a wonderful guy, and he'sour branch chair for Tanzania.
And so in his case, I mean he'sdecidedly GAFCON, but Tanzania
is in a mixed position now.
(08:54):
So our view, and people haveinterpreted that what October
16th said was choose this day,you're either in those kind of
provinces or outside of thoseprovinces.
But again, remember that whatwe say in the statement, and I
always tell people, read thestatement from October 16th
carefully, read it slowly andunderstand what we're saying,
because in that statement, wetalk about a vision of
Anglicanism that goes back tothe Lambeth Conference origins,
(09:18):
where we had not evolved intothis weird, near magisterial
kind of approach to Anglicanismbeing run by these four man-made
instruments of communion,unity, the the Archers of
Canterbury, the ACC, the LambethConference, and the Primates
meeting.
It's almost become ex cathedralAnglican.
Precisely.
And they're new, as I keepsaying to people, people act as
if these things were writteninto the homilies by Cranberg.
(09:41):
But the truth is that, youknow, 1860.
Exactly, exactly.
Our formularies are alwayssubmitted to Scripture.
But that instead we're sayingthe vision of Anglicanism has
not been under these structuresbefore, but the unity has been
the Bible.
But then autonomous Anglicandioceses and provinces that are
bound together in communion.
And I think what's happenedwithin the Anglican communion is
(10:02):
we've actually begun tomisunderstand what that word is
within the old structure.
A communion is a fellowship,it's a family of autonomous
provinces that choose to be meettogether confessionally, that
we share a common confession.
And so, in so many ways, whatwe've been saying is that the
October 16th statement doesn'tsay anything different.
These are autonomous dioceseand provinces.
We do say we encourage peopleto sever ties canonically and
(10:26):
constitutionally with the Churchof England, with the Archbishop
of Canterbury.
But notice we say encourage,because if they're autonomous,
then how can a global body likethe GAC say you must?
We can't say you must.
Dominic Steele (10:37):
So it's not kind of like um exclusive, like a
marriage.
Do you know that you're eitherwith GAFCON or Canterbury?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (10:48):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Because the challenge again isone woman or another one.
And see, the the challenge isthat what we're saying in the
statement is that we are theAnglican Communion.
We've said that from thebeginning.
There's nothing really that newin the October 16th statement.
We just stated these thingstogether clearly with a few more
applications, you could say.
But part of it is we keepsaying we've not left the
(11:11):
Anglican Communion.
We've said that from the verybeginning in Jerusalem 2008.
And so though others willcontinue to call us schismatics
and say, oh, this is a globalAnglican communion, it's another
body, it's not.
Schismatics or reformers.
Dominic Steele (11:23):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (11:24):
Well, that's exactly it.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
I mean, people would have saidthat of Luther and Calvin.
Absolutely.
And Cranmer, I mean, whenCranmer left behind the Bishop
of Rome and the Church ofEngland remained intact, of
course, what did Rome say?
Oh, you're a bunch ofschismatics.
Cranmer said, no, we'rereformers.
We're keeping the Bible at theheart of what it means to be
Anglicans, to be EnglishReformed Christians.
Dominic Steele (11:45):
I mean, I felt at Kigali that it it felt, oh
wow, this is a moment that couldbe talked about in church
history textbooks in 400 years'time.
Exactly right.
But it feels even more the casefor the Abuja meeting.
Absolutely.
Paul Donison (12:00):
Hey, you read it?
Absolutely.
And I think there was a sense Iwent to Kigali in 23 and was so
pleased to again be that mywhat was my third GAFCON
conference.
I wasn't at Jerusalem in 2008,but I was there 13 in Nairobi
and then 18 in Jerusalem andthen 23 in Kigali.
And I've just been so refreshedevery time I go, as I know you
have and others.
But the other thing is I didactually have some expectation
(12:21):
at the 23 meeting, and I didn'thave a role.
I wasn't Gen Sec at that time.
But I had a hope andexpectation that we would go
even a bit further with what theconference said.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Dominic Steele (12:28):
I was a I thought they didn't go as far as
I was expecting them to go orwanted them to go.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's right.
Paul Donison (12:33):
And so I think what happened was we were teeing
up the future direction we weregoing.
And then under the gracious uhGod-given leadership of
Archbishop Umbanda and theprimates and all the primates'
council, I mean all the bishopsand I mean people often think
that we're just primate-led.
Our council actually ismultifaceted.
We've got primates, we've gotregional secretaries, we've got
(12:53):
lay people.
I mean, who are the keyprimates who are engaged at the
moment?
Yeah.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. (12:57):
Well, I mean, we we're yet to see who's
all going to show up for Abuja.
I mean, because again, peopleare busy.
The challenge of you knowhaving a primate-led movement is
that you know these primatesare all primates of the
extremely busy jobs.
Dominic Steele (13:10):
However, this is an important day.
This is a very important day.
Paul Donison (13:12):
But I mean, certainly with Nigeria hosting
as key.
Um we we've got we've gotstrength from across the board
with um with Uganda, with uhACNA, with Brazil.
Uh it's been wonderful talkingto Archbishop Miguel and I mean
just such a strong voice out ofBrazil.
Um, you know, and and he and heand he also broadens out sort
of a whole uh South Americanreality with the Portuguese
(13:33):
speakers.
Um Bishop Enrique Lago out ofChile is a new primate, really
solid.
I mean, a GAFCON man.
Um I mean, across the board,we've got Myanmar.
I mean, Stephen Tan has beenvery engaged.
Their province voted uh just afew weeks ago.
I was talking to uh BishopClement Sun U, who's our
regional secretary for Asia.
He's in Myanmar, and they hadsome resolution at their
(13:55):
province saying, oh, yes, weagain have nothing to do with
England and with Canterbury.
I mean, it's in theirconstitution still because it
takes time to work these thingsout.
But they're making declarationsat their synonical level saying
we really want nothing to dowith these dead and unbiblical
structures.
And I think that's courage.
Dominic Steele (14:11):
So they're really engaged.
Let's push into, I mean, interms of complexities, uh, these
two good guys in Ireland who uhtwo bishops who put out strong
statements um for Jesus, for theBible, and and yet they're
getting wrapped over theknuckles from on high.
Paul Donison (14:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's challenging becauseagain, I was providentially I
was in Ireland about a weekafter the October 16th
statement.
That was long play.
No, no, I mean it was it was Imean, I didn't I've done a lot
in between.
My my my cathedral my cathedralis incredibly gracious in my
time.
Um I hear your wife and kidsare arriving in Australia today.
So that would be a good idea.
(14:51):
We got to go to Sydney today.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Reunions in Sydney so I can seemy family.
But uh they're hugelysupportive and it's just it's a
joy.
And the the being in Ireland,for example, the week after the
meeting was so, so critical.
And and it was planned longbefore.
I mean, in other words, we hadteed up the Ireland meeting long
before we knew there would be ameeting uh in October for uh
(15:13):
for the for what became the GAC,the Global Anglican Communion
announcement.
So being able to be there,though, and talk to David
McClay, for example.
Dominic Steele (15:21):
Oh, yes, GAC.
You mucked it up with the wordGAFCON all those years ago.
You can't call it GAC.
That's right.
You've got to call it GlobalAnglican.
Paul Donison (15:29):
It's got to global Anglicans, just global
Anglicans, Global AnglicanCommunion.
You're absolutely right.
I know, I know.
It's not a GAF nor a con.
It's I mean, I'll just say it,right?
The Gen Secret.
I mean, people have criticizedthis for years.
I mean, we're now saying thatGAFCO's become more of a brand.
Like it's like Qantas.
No one knows what Qantas standsfor.
Well, some do.
But it's just like there's thebrand.
From the start.
We've got to have a no acronympolicy.
Global Anglicans.
(15:50):
But you know, going there andtalking to Bishop David McClay,
who's our regional secretary forEurope now.
I mean, so again, a GAFCON manwho's who's just so, so engaged.
But he he was under hugecriticism instantly.
I mean, took a strong statementand continues to hold that.
But again, part of it has beenthe misunderstanding.
And I think whether it'swillful misunderstanding or
whether it's honestmisunderstanding will be yet to
(16:11):
be seen.
But in a lot of the Westernchurches, it's almost like this
has been used by certainprimates to say, ah, see, if
you're with GAFCON, now you'vegone too far.
They're they're looking for areason to bring action against
these guys.
And I've I said when I was inIreland, I'm not a
constitutional expert, but thereare protections within our
constitutions around the globewith provinces that make sure
(16:31):
that primates don't have thatkind of, again, magisterial
power just to throw someone out,thought police.
I mean, we're into sort ofOrwellism.
We have, you know, it'sagainst, it's against the
primates code to think thesethings or or believe these
things about the Anglicanism.
The challenge is as I go there,my ability to say to folks,
listen, hear it from GAFCONGlobal directly.
(16:52):
We are not saying that ifyou're part of GAFCON, you have
to leave the Church of Ireland.
We're not saying that.
What we're saying is we wantyou to be engaged with GAFCO.
End stop, full stop.
Dominic Steele (17:03):
It's the same message for the mixed um
province there as it is to themixed province in Australia.
Now, Anglican Church in NorthAmerica, you're a bishop in the
Anglican Church in NorthAmerica.
From my seat here in Sydney, Ijust look over there and think,
what is going on?
Paul Donison (17:16):
Yeah.
Um, we've got canons in placeand constitutional processes.
We've even refined some ofthose processes and are working
through it.
We've learned a lot.
Um, but we're in ouradolescence.
(17:36):
We're you know, 16, 17 yearsold as the ACNA, which means
we're kind of an awkwardteenager instead of Trevor
Burrus, Jr.
Dominic Steele (17:43):
We should say for those who are listening to
this who are not following thisclosely, there's three senior
bishops who are um uh underinvestigation accusations
against them.
And uh and and really it's allbeen a bit messily handled.
That's probably anunderstatement.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (18:01):
That's exactly right.
And and and we're what we'reattempting to do is is follow
our canons and follow ourprocedures.
And I will say, to quote myfriend Brian Holland, who's the
uh dean president at TrinityAnglican Seminary, he wrote a
great substack on this when thisall came out, because people
are saying the sky is falling,these these these disciplinary
proceedings are demonstratingmaybe the church is is done for,
(18:23):
at least the ACNA.
Um but the truth is, is asHolland says in his substack, he
said, um discipline is not asign that the church is dying.
Discipline is a sign that thechurch is taking holiness
seriously.
And I think there's somethingin that, that we're actually
leaning into this and we'remaking mistakes along the way
and we're repenting of those,we're fixing our systems, but
(18:44):
there is an earnest desire toactually deal with these
disciplinary issues open,publicly, canonically,
constitutionally.
Um and so in doing so, therethe hope is that actually we're
learning through this uh so thatthe church actually can be a
safer place.
So I believe that at the end ofall of this, though we are
going through a real, a realtrial and tribulation right now
(19:05):
as the ACNA, um, that I think onthe other side of this, the
Lord will have taught us a lotabout what it means to be the
church and how to do things wellfor safe churches and for good
leadership.
Dominic Steele (19:15):
Now talking about um complementarianism,
because that's an elephant inthe room.
Sure.
I'm a complementarian person,but there are some people who uh
who would think you have to becomplementarian to be in GAFCO,
but you're running a broaderline than that.
Paul Donison (19:32):
Oh, much more so.
Because the the again, one ofthe misconceptions has happened
uh that GAFCON has a particularposition on complementary and
egalitarian realities.
The truth is these are reallyimportant issues.
Really important issues.
And obviously, I live in theACNA happily with all that
tension.
Dominic Steele (19:49):
Happily, it's certainly there's certainly
tension there.
Paul Donison (19:51):
And I say happily because I'd rather have the, I
mean, I'd rather have theseproblems than the other problems
of what we came out from theEpiscopal Church and the
Anglican Church in Canada.
I mean, I'll take theseproblems.
Um, these are problems withinthe family, and they're really
important issues.
Uh, but in the JerusalemDeclaration in Article 12,
intentionally it wrote in aboutdiversity within secondary
matters.
(20:11):
And anyone who is part of thatinitial conference will know
that's exactly what we weretalking about.
That the Article 12 wasspeaking specifically about
women's orders and was uh amongother things, but certainly was
saying we have got to allowthere to be diversity.
Because again, I'll say,Dominic, that within the
Anglican pro the global umAnglican communion provinces,
within the GAFCO provinces,outside of Nigeria, my
(20:34):
understanding is there is not asingle province that's a full
member of GAFCON outside ofNigeria that's fully
complementarian from bishop todeacon.
Every one of the otherprovinces will have some degree
of egalitarian ministry at somelevel of order within their
churches.
So this is just the realitythat we are a mixed within the
province.
Which in their within theirprovince.
(20:55):
That's right, dioceses will goone way or another way.
And so from our perspective, isGAFCON again back to the vision
of a fellowship of autonomousprovinces that, as Article 12
says, has appropriate diversityon secondary issues.
Secondary issues again beingthose things that are not
keeping people from eternalsalvation or damning them to
(21:16):
hell.
Right?
First order issues are aboutthings that get in the way of
someone's salvation.
I mean, or do you think it'sreally issues?
Dominic Steele (21:24):
I mean, does the scriptures speak clearly?
You know, and so I mean wewould agree that the scriptures
speak clearly on the issue ofsexuality, gender.
Um when you come tocomplementarianism, maybe
somebody might say to me, um,well I can j I can read it to
(21:49):
interpret the scriptures thisway.
And I think I'm not sure youcan, but maybe I could concede
if you crossed your fingers,squinted, you know.
Sure, sure.
You sort of could work it outto get there.
Paul Donison (22:01):
Well, and these and these issues are really
important because again, I dothink we've talked about the
sort of the univocal nature ofscripture on certain issues, and
then there's there's arguably,and not everyone agrees with
that, there's a multiple readinguh or multiple readings within
scripture, arguably, even thosewho are having a plain canonical
reading of scripture that woulddisagree and would say attempt
to be fully biblical to sayhere's an egalitarian position.
(22:23):
Um and so so the argument is isI think even further than that,
though, is when Paul, forexample, in some of the moral
vice lists, will go throughthese disciplinary issues of
things that are going on inunrepentant behavior, and will
say those who do these things,and of course homosexuality is
included in that, will say thosewho do these things shall not
inherit the kingdom of God.
And and we got to take thatseriously.
(22:44):
And so suddenly this idea thatI often tell people in my own
cathedral context who arenewcomers, they'll say, listen,
you know, we're not perfect.
We're not suggesting everyone'sperfect, we're all sinners, but
we're repentant sinners.
And so when the church teachesus not to be repentant of sin,
then we are actually creating afirst-order issue of someone's
salvation.
Yeah.
On question of if a woman's inthe pulpit or not and ordained,
(23:05):
those are really importantissues that get people very
upset and they worry.
They'll say, Well, if you readthe Bible that way, then I'm not
sure you're reading the Bibleright.
But at the end of the day, mostwill say, will agree it's not
going to keep people out ofheaven because a woman may or
may not be in that role.
Some will disagree, and thenfor them it's a first-order
issue.
GAFCON has said from thebeginning, it's not a
first-order issue, and thereforewe can disagree on it.
Dominic Steele (23:27):
Now, the big conference you've got, we've got
this one in Abuja, but yournext big, big conference is
2008, and you're moving fromJerusalem to Athens.
Paul Donison (23:39):
Yeah, 2028, we uh voted the primates voted in our
most recent meeting that havingdone all the research, we're so
thankful that we had uh ourglobal operations manager, a
good Sydney boy, uh Canon JodyMcNeil, uh did some great
research for us at the requestof the primates and for a whole
lot of reasons, discerned thatour 10-year pattern of going
(23:59):
back to Jerusalem was just nottenable.
And so we looked at a few otheroptions, and you know, we've
sort of gone Europe.
If you if you sort of putJerusalem in Europe, you say
Jerusalem, and then we've goneAfrica, Jerusalem, Africa.
And we thought, well, wherecould we go, which would be a
Jerusalem-like site that wouldhave the same kind of biblical,
(24:21):
unique role that could be reallyattractive and a place to
gather?
And we said Athens.
And we presented that, and itlooks really good.
So yeah, we're going to Athensin 2028.
It's gonna be, we hope, thebiggest conference ever.
And I can just imagine some ofthe sites.
Well, I'm not even gonna saythem, just those who are
listening can or watching canthink about all the cool sites
right around Athens that wecould gather, take photos,
(24:43):
right?
I mean, there's gonna be suchgreat things we can do together.
Great photo opportunities,great worship opportunities.
Dominic Steele (24:48):
So yeah, it's gonna be really cool.
Great.
Now, you've been touringAustralia.
Um, how's it been going?
Paul Donison (24:55):
I think it's gone great.
We did five cities in fivedays, which uh means I really I
have not I've not had muchsightseeing, but uh met a lot of
great people.
And uh I've I've I've reallygotten comfortable with Qantas
Airlay Airways.
Um I know Qantas Plains reallywell.
Um but no, it's been so greatto start in Melbourne and then
(25:15):
one of the things all around.
Dominic Steele (25:16):
Is actually I'm imagining having serious
conversations with some of oursenior leaders attempting to win
them over.
Paul Donison (25:25):
And that's exactly it.
I mean, it's been anopportunity for honest
conversation.
Uh, we've had both leaders'meetings, one-on-one meetings,
and then big public events.
And I've just been soencouraged to have people sit
down with me and say some hardthings, say, hey, we don't like
how you wrote that.
And I said, I didn't write it.
I was, you know, I was at themeeting, but it's the private
statement.
But but being able to talkthrough and say, I get what
you're saying and I hear you,but then being able to have an
(25:47):
opportunity to respond andseeing in many cases folks
realize, wow, this is actually amuch better moment than we
realize.
As I've been saying, Dominic,in a lot of places, the Western
critics, even within, you know,the more evangelical camp, the
Western criticism has has beenprofound.
There's been a lot of it aroundthe world.
I've heard it.
I'm not surprised by any of it.
Um, what people need toremember is there's good answers
(26:10):
to all of that.
Some of the answer is wait tillyou know G26, we'll answer some
of those things.
But remember that the responsein most of the Africans, South A
Southeast Asian, um, SouthAmerican churches have been
really positive.
Like when I talk to our folksaround the world in those
settings, they're saying this isamazing.
They're so excited.
In fact, some of them aresaying that's a very important
thing.
I mean, it's fine.
(26:32):
Exactly.
And the whole colonial thing,which I think is more and more
than a lot of people.
Dominic Steele (26:35):
I mean, we just talked about this before that I
mean, there is an issue of theproblem of apostasy and
revisionism, but there is alsoan issue of the way the English
have treated the Africans.
Exactly right.
Paul Donison (26:50):
Well, even look in the Crown Nominations
Committee.
I mean, the the the view onthis was such a snub.
It was such a sub becauseagain, it's it's this idea that
there'll be some token memberswho will you know broaden out
the council, still a m tinyminority uh making up the Crown
Nominations Committee.
And then the names come out,and we all look at the names,
and frankly, everyone in theglobal church was saying with no
(27:13):
disrespect to the individuals,who are these people?
I mean, they didn't go and graba primate out of a country or a
major leading bishop or atheologian out of the global
south.
They grabbed people that mostof us didn't even know.
And again, the the view wasagain, this is sort of typical
English colonial tokenism thatsays, you know, we'll take it
from here, you know, we'll giveyou a little bit.
Keep talking, be part of theconversation.
Dominic Steele (27:35):
Don't you worry about that, Chaps.
Paul Donison (27:36):
Yeah, don't you worry about that.
And I think the same thing, andI'll be critical of the
Iascapho report, the NairobiCairo um report that comes out
talking about a rotatingpresidency of the communion.
Again, this is just typical, Ithink, colonial tactics on we'll
just give you a little bit soyou can feel like you've got a
bit more of a voice, but there'sno sense that the communion
(27:57):
office is going to change any ofthe ways they function.
You know, the apparatusunderneath this is gonna
continue to function as italways has.
And I think what GAFCON istrying to say is no more.
We're just the global churchwhere the epicenter of
Christianity, let aloneAnglicanism, has moved
completely to the majorityworld.
Um we we knew that years agowith Philip Jenkins' books, with
(28:19):
Lamin Sene, who got whosegospel is this?
I mean, they were all sayingthe epicenter is.
Dominic Steele (28:26):
I mean, I'm sure it was for you and as it was
for me, that when you go to oneof those Gaffred Gaff GAFCON
conferences, you just have theexperience of meeting this
extraordinary number of highlyquality Christian leaders.
Absolutely.
Um from Africa.
Paul Donison (28:43):
And and what's encouraging is is not only the
strength of conviction, thefaith under pressure, all the
things we know about thepersecuted church, the joy, the
incredible joy.
I think sometimes the Westernchurch has got to rediscover the
joy of the gospel.
You go to the African church,you go to the South American
church.
I go to I go to Miguel Uchoa'sCathedral in Brazil for
confirmation, and it's it's aparty.
(29:05):
I mean, people are so excitedto have hands laid on by bishops
for come Holy Spirit andrefresh your people.
And they're they're having aparty.
And I'm thinking, yeah, we needa little bit of that in Dallas.
I think the more Westernchurches could do a little bit
more of that.
Um but it's not just the joyfor me, also, it's it's the
strength of their training.
I mean, what I'm so impressedwith when we're doing our
bishops' training institutes,when we're having speakers come
(29:27):
up and really give truly globalrepresentation on the stage at
our conferences, these arebrilliant leaders.
These are mission leaders,these are theological leaders.
I go to the Nigerian church,and I was I was so amazed and
humbled at the quality ofteaching.
Every morning we had a morningprayer, we had preaching, and I
thought, these preachers areamazing.
(29:48):
I mean, I would give up mypulpit in Texas anytime for
these guys to come in.
And so I think part of whatwe're relearning, Dominic, is
that God has done an amazingthing in the majority world
church.
And it's time for a lot of theWesterners, and many of us
who've gone to the conferenceshave seen this, but it's time
for us to have an opportunity tocatch up and say, the Lord's
moving forward.
(30:09):
And I'm just so thanks that weare thankful that we get to be
part of it in the West.
Dominic Steele (30:12):
I mean, I just personally um sit in awe as over
the last few years I've got toknow Lauren.
And I mean, that he, as a man,as a young man, was the leader
of the Compassion Project,Caring for People post the
genocide in Rwanda.
And then I I talked to him acouple of years ago and I said,
(30:35):
So what's your project at themoment?
This is before CAFCON.
What's your project at themoment?
And he said, Oh, I'm startingthe East African Christian
University.
That's right.
And I just thought, what am Idoing with my life?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Paul Donison (30:46):
Exactly.
And it launched during COVID.
Yeah.
This is thinking, let's launcha new Christian university that
is just packed with studentsnow.
And again, do it during COVID.
I'm just here twiddling mythumb.
I know.
I know.
No, it's really incredible tosee.
And again, this is what I thinkis encouraging when people ask,
why should you be part ofGAFCON?
Right.
And there's a lot of folks, Ithink, in strong Western
(31:07):
churches.
I mean, ACNA, I mean Sydney andACNA are in similar camp.
I mean, we've got we've gotgreat leadership.
I mean, ACNA is in a bit of amess right now.
We're dealing with some ofthat, but still, all these
people around the room, and I gofor college of bishops'
meetings, these are brothers wholove the Bible, love the Lord,
and long for the day of hisappearing.
Um, why do we need GAFCON?
And I think part of it is notonly do we get an opportunity to
(31:28):
give and support and and andand add to this movement, but
really we get to receive.
We get ourselves emboldened, weget strengthened.
Uh, I've been sharpened as aleader.
I say things from the pulpit ina Western context that I would
have never said 20 years ago.
Not because I was afraid, butbecause I'd never had it modeled
for me.
Dominic Steele (31:47):
And you've watched the example of some of
these.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Thanks so much for coming totalk to us.
This has been great, Dominic.
My guest on The Pastor's Heart,Paul Donison.
He's the general secretary ofthe GAFCON movement.
And uh look, that's going to bea big couple of days in Abuja,
Nigeria next March.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
The Lord is taking away his spirit from the
Canterbury Lambeth Lampstand.
The center of gravity in theAnglican Communion is moving
from Canterbury to Abuja,Nigeria.
It's the Pastor's Heart.
She's probably Nigerian.
(01:06):
And the framework of theAnglican Communion is catching
up with that reality.
And the English colonialistsneed to come to terms with that.
In March 2026, there'll be aconference of Anglican bishops
from all around the world,bishops who are confessionally
Anglican.
That is, they have signed the2008 Jerusalem Declaration.
(01:28):
That meeting will mark theofficial launch of the new
Global Anglicans.
It was six weeks ago thatRwandan primate Archbishop
Laurent Mbanda joined us on thePastor's Heart telling us that
the Anglican Communion is to bereordered, to be reset.
The Archbishop of Canterburyand the Church of England are
out, and the Bible is back, backat the foundation of the
(01:51):
communion.
When we spoke to ArchbishopMbanda, the ink was barely dry
on that statement.
Well since then there's been alot of action and reaction from
all around the world as peoplehave grappled with this news,
tensions and realignments in theAnglican Church in North
America, the situation inIreland, decisions coming out of
(02:12):
the GAFCON Primates Council,questions about women's orders,
schism, and communionrelationships.
And how does it work for amixed province, one like
Australia, where the growingmajority wants to align with the
Bible and the believers inAfrica, and yet there's a
significant minority stillharking back to apostasy and
(02:33):
canterbury.
Well, we start with PaulDonison and the pastor's heart.
And Paul, you were here forthat meeting six weeks ago, and
um you're back.
It's been a busy six weeks foryou.
Paul Donison (02:43):
It's been a very busy six weeks, Dominic.
It's been wonderful, uh, butvery full because the reactions
have been enormous, bothpositive and obviously some
negative.
Um, but you expect that.
If we're saying anything that'simportant, it's gonna get a
variety of responses.
Dominic Steele (02:57):
So tell us, I mean, it was so new, it was
really just an idea on the 15thor so when we spoke last month,
or when I spoke to ArchbishopMbanda last month.
But things are starting tocrystallize.
What is the plan for the Marchmeeting in Abuja, Nigeria?
Paul Donison (03:13):
Yeah, so in March uh in 2026, we're meeting in
Abuja.
We've moved from one of thesenew mini-conferences, global
mini-conferences.
Uh, it's not so many anymore,because the realization is we
need to really have all of theOrthodox bishops invited.
It is a bishops conferenceintentionally.
So the plan will be to meet inAbuja and to really listen
together.
I mean, this is this is theconciliar nature of the church,
(03:36):
have the bishops in the room,all those who've signed the
Jerusalem Declaration, um, andmeet, pray, and hopefully speak
with one voice.
And a lot of the questions thathave emerged since the October
16th statement, we believe a lotof them, you know, by God's
leading, will actually beanswered in the Abuja
conference.
It's got to a point where someof the media outlets keep asking
me for a new update, saying, isthere anything new?
(03:56):
Is there anything new?
And I keep saying, I thinkyou'll probably have to wait
till Abuja.
Abuja will be where somethingnew and fresh comes out of that
conference.
Dominic Steele (04:03):
And then I I take it you're thinking that
there'll be some sort ofceremony, some sort of inaugural
moment.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (04:10):
That's the hope.
I mean, what we said in theOctober 16th statement, what the
primates said was that the uhthe plan would be that a council
of primates, uh, which has beenfrom the beginning of GAFCON,
that we gather our primatestogether, but this council of
primates would together uhelect, choose a Primus Inter
Paris, a first among equals.
We know we're using you knowloaded language by saying that.
(04:32):
Um so that's been theintention.
All the rest that happens, uhhopefully celebrating that
appointment and election, uhbeing able to celebrate other
decisions that come out, this isall gonna be part of Abuja.
Um I mean, uh the odds are theyon Laurent Mbanda?
Well, I think what's importantis that GAFCON's leadership has
(04:54):
really tried to set a reorderingmoment in this.
And so my understanding, andit's yet to be determined when
the bishops gather in Abuja, butmy understanding is that uh the
intention of the October 16thstatement was to say that
there'll be a council ofprimates that gather there,
which we hope is actually evenpotentially a broader alliance
than has been traditionally partof the GAFCON primes.
Dominic Steele (05:13):
Wouldn't it be awesome?
I mean, I I'm I mean my prayeris that um the primate of
Australia might go.
Paul Donison (05:20):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
And and and and if he could sitin the room and be part of that
primates' council, it would beincredible.
I mean, I'm sure he got majorblowback from some places, but
again, the pullers from here.
Well, and that's that's again,anything we do that's important
within uh within gospel ministryis going to r result in all
kinds of reactions.
So our hope is that it would bea broad gathering of those who
(05:40):
can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, and then amongst
them they'll vote.
Now, if they elect ArchbishopUmbanda, that'll be great.
Um, if they elect someone else,that'll be great because it'll
be the Lord's choosing amongstthe primates.
The key thing, though, is thishas not been GAFCON sort of
crowning itself as we are theprimates' council.
GAFCON's leadership has said weneed to have a council of
(06:01):
primates that gather, and thatwill be the reordering moment.
That they will decide.
They will decide.
Dominic Steele (06:07):
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, I'm imagining though,you guys are talking to some of
those primates who are I mean,there's some people who you kind
of know will turn up like theguy from Nigeria, the guy from
since he's hosting it.
I hope he's there.
Arch Bishop Bendiku is vital toall of this, and he's such a
gracious host.
But then there's others thatyou're thinking, we don't know
if they're going to come, weneed to invite them, and you're
(06:28):
out talking to them.
I'm presuming what's going onat the point.
Paul Donison (06:31):
That's a hope that and and it's not just primate
focus.
We really are trying to get abroad group of primates
together, but also bishops.
So our hope is that this couldbe a real gathering moment.
Some bishops who may have beenat conferences years ago, but
maybe have fallen a bit awayfrom the GAFCON movement.
Uh, this would be anopportunity to reach out to the
Trevor Burrus.
So you reach out to SouthSudan, you reach out to the
reach out to everybody, andwe're not going to obviously uh
(06:51):
push hard.
We want people to make goodconscience decisions to go.
Uh, but we really the theinvitation is what?
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration as a bishop in this
communion, we want you there.
We want you part of this.
Dominic Steele (07:03):
So um what about Australia?
I mean, you've you've beentouring Australia.
That's right.
I'm sure you've been gettingquestions like I mean, I don't
know what the definition youmight call Australia a blended
province.
There's a lot of mixed andblended.
Yeah, exactly.
Tell us about your observationshere and what your hopes are
here.
Paul Donison (07:19):
Well, what I've seen here, of course, is that
you go to a place like Sydney,obviously, and there's other
places.
So we we're in Tasmania, andyou see places that have very
strong gospel leadership.
There's a there's a clearcommitment to GAFCON.
Even those places know we needencouragement still.
I mean, that's been the greatthing about coming to Sydney and
having some meetings is to notassume that Sydney's on board,
historically such a huge role,but encourage that, encourage
(07:42):
intentional increasedengagement.
Um, but certainly going toother places, we recognize that
there are people live living andserving a diocese where it is a
mixed blended diocese, um, justlike a mixed blended province.
And we want to be able to sayto those folks, you really can
engage with the global Anglicancommunion.
You can really be part of this.
Um, the obviously the orderedway normally is through a
(08:04):
province.
That's why we have a primatescouncil.
So if a province signs on,that's the most sort of regular
approach.
But then we've got otherdioceses around the world.
I think of Muita Kira out ofTanzania, um, other places where
you've got a singular diocesethat has said, hey, we're fully
GAFCON.
And we found ways to connectthem in and be part of the
Africa.
How do you do that?
Dominic Steele (08:21):
How do you do that with if the the province as
a whole is not with you, ormaybe even in the constitution,
the province can't be with youor is somehow linked to Lambeth
or what Aaron Ross Powell?
Paul Donison (08:33):
And this is the question we get asked a lot
because the challenge is whenyou're when you're living in a
region, for example, where uhlike a diocese like let's let's
pick a diocese in uh Tanzania,in that case with Muay Akira,
his his He's a great guy.
He's a wonderful guy, and he'sour branch chair for Tanzania.
And so in his case, I mean he'sdecidedly GAFCON, but Tanzania
is in a mixed position now.
(08:54):
So our view, and people haveinterpreted that what October
16th said was choose this day,you're either in those kind of
provinces or outside of thoseprovinces.
But again, remember that whatwe say in the statement, and I
always tell people, read thestatement from October 16th
carefully, read it slowly andunderstand what we're saying,
because in that statement, wetalk about a vision of
Anglicanism that goes back tothe Lambeth Conference origins,
(09:18):
where we had not evolved intothis weird, near magisterial
kind of approach to Anglicanismbeing run by these four man-made
instruments of communion,unity, the the Archers of
Canterbury, the ACC, the LambethConference, and the Primates
meeting.
It's almost become ex cathedralAnglican.
Precisely.
And they're new, as I keepsaying to people, people act as
if these things were writteninto the homilies by Cranberg.
(09:41):
But the truth is that, youknow, 1860.
Exactly, exactly.
Our formularies are alwayssubmitted to Scripture.
But that instead we're sayingthe vision of Anglicanism has
not been under these structuresbefore, but the unity has been
the Bible.
But then autonomous Anglicandioceses and provinces that are
bound together in communion.
And I think what's happenedwithin the Anglican communion is
(10:02):
we've actually begun tomisunderstand what that word is
within the old structure.
A communion is a fellowship,it's a family of autonomous
provinces that choose to be meettogether confessionally, that
we share a common confession.
And so, in so many ways, whatwe've been saying is that the
October 16th statement doesn'tsay anything different.
These are autonomous dioceseand provinces.
We do say we encourage peopleto sever ties canonically and
(10:26):
constitutionally with the Churchof England, with the Archbishop
of Canterbury.
But notice we say encourage,because if they're autonomous,
then how can a global body likethe GAC say you must?
We can't say you must.
Dominic Steele (10:37):
So it's not kind of like um exclusive, like a
marriage.
Do you know that you're eitherwith GAFCON or Canterbury?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (10:48):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Because the challenge again isone woman or another one.
And see, the the challenge isthat what we're saying in the
statement is that we are theAnglican Communion.
We've said that from thebeginning.
There's nothing really that newin the October 16th statement.
We just stated these thingstogether clearly with a few more
applications, you could say.
But part of it is we keepsaying we've not left the
(11:11):
Anglican Communion.
We've said that from the verybeginning in Jerusalem 2008.
And so though others willcontinue to call us schismatics
and say, oh, this is a globalAnglican communion, it's another
body, it's not.
Schismatics or reformers.
Dominic Steele (11:23):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (11:24):
Well, that's exactly it.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
I mean, people would have saidthat of Luther and Calvin.
Absolutely.
And Cranmer, I mean, whenCranmer left behind the Bishop
of Rome and the Church ofEngland remained intact, of
course, what did Rome say?
Oh, you're a bunch ofschismatics.
Cranmer said, no, we'rereformers.
We're keeping the Bible at theheart of what it means to be
Anglicans, to be EnglishReformed Christians.
Dominic Steele (11:45):
I mean, I felt at Kigali that it it felt, oh
wow, this is a moment that couldbe talked about in church
history textbooks in 400 years'time.
Exactly right.
But it feels even more the casefor the Abuja meeting.
Absolutely.
Paul Donison (12:00):
Hey, you read it?
Absolutely.
And I think there was a sense Iwent to Kigali in 23 and was so
pleased to again be that mywhat was my third GAFCON
conference.
I wasn't at Jerusalem in 2008,but I was there 13 in Nairobi
and then 18 in Jerusalem andthen 23 in Kigali.
And I've just been so refreshedevery time I go, as I know you
have and others.
But the other thing is I didactually have some expectation
(12:21):
at the 23 meeting, and I didn'thave a role.
I wasn't Gen Sec at that time.
But I had a hope andexpectation that we would go
even a bit further with what theconference said.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Dominic Steele (12:28):
I was a I thought they didn't go as far as
I was expecting them to go orwanted them to go.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's right.
Paul Donison (12:33):
And so I think what happened was we were teeing
up the future direction we weregoing.
And then under the gracious uhGod-given leadership of
Archbishop Umbanda and theprimates and all the primates'
council, I mean all the bishopsand I mean people often think
that we're just primate-led.
Our council actually ismultifaceted.
We've got primates, we've gotregional secretaries, we've got
(12:53):
lay people.
I mean, who are the keyprimates who are engaged at the
moment?
Yeah.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. (12:57):
Well, I mean, we we're yet to see who's
all going to show up for Abuja.
I mean, because again, peopleare busy.
The challenge of you knowhaving a primate-led movement is
that you know these primatesare all primates of the
extremely busy jobs.
Dominic Steele (13:10):
However, this is an important day.
This is a very important day.
Paul Donison (13:12):
But I mean, certainly with Nigeria hosting
as key.
Um we we've got we've gotstrength from across the board
with um with Uganda, with uhACNA, with Brazil.
Uh it's been wonderful talkingto Archbishop Miguel and I mean
just such a strong voice out ofBrazil.
Um, you know, and and he and heand he also broadens out sort
of a whole uh South Americanreality with the Portuguese
(13:33):
speakers.
Um Bishop Enrique Lago out ofChile is a new primate, really
solid.
I mean, a GAFCON man.
Um I mean, across the board,we've got Myanmar.
I mean, Stephen Tan has beenvery engaged.
Their province voted uh just afew weeks ago.
I was talking to uh BishopClement Sun U, who's our
regional secretary for Asia.
He's in Myanmar, and they hadsome resolution at their
(13:55):
province saying, oh, yes, weagain have nothing to do with
England and with Canterbury.
I mean, it's in theirconstitution still because it
takes time to work these thingsout.
But they're making declarationsat their synonical level saying
we really want nothing to dowith these dead and unbiblical
structures.
And I think that's courage.
Dominic Steele (14:11):
So they're really engaged.
Let's push into, I mean, interms of complexities, uh, these
two good guys in Ireland who uhtwo bishops who put out strong
statements um for Jesus, for theBible, and and yet they're
getting wrapped over theknuckles from on high.
Paul Donison (14:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's challenging becauseagain, I was providentially I
was in Ireland about a weekafter the October 16th
statement.
That was long play.
No, no, I mean it was it was Imean, I didn't I've done a lot
in between.
My my my cathedral my cathedralis incredibly gracious in my
time.
Um I hear your wife and kidsare arriving in Australia today.
So that would be a good idea.
(14:51):
We got to go to Sydney today.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Reunions in Sydney so I can seemy family.
But uh they're hugelysupportive and it's just it's a
joy.
And the the being in Ireland,for example, the week after the
meeting was so, so critical.
And and it was planned longbefore.
I mean, in other words, we hadteed up the Ireland meeting long
before we knew there would be ameeting uh in October for uh
(15:13):
for the for what became the GAC,the Global Anglican Communion
announcement.
So being able to be there,though, and talk to David
McClay, for example.
Dominic Steele (15:21):
Oh, yes, GAC.
You mucked it up with the wordGAFCON all those years ago.
You can't call it GAC.
That's right.
You've got to call it GlobalAnglican.
Paul Donison (15:29):
It's got to global Anglicans, just global
Anglicans, Global AnglicanCommunion.
You're absolutely right.
I know, I know.
It's not a GAF nor a con.
It's I mean, I'll just say it,right?
The Gen Secret.
I mean, people have criticizedthis for years.
I mean, we're now saying thatGAFCO's become more of a brand.
Like it's like Qantas.
No one knows what Qantas standsfor.
Well, some do.
But it's just like there's thebrand.
From the start.
We've got to have a no acronympolicy.
Global Anglicans.
(15:50):
But you know, going there andtalking to Bishop David McClay,
who's our regional secretary forEurope now.
I mean, so again, a GAFCON manwho's who's just so, so engaged.
But he he was under hugecriticism instantly.
I mean, took a strong statementand continues to hold that.
But again, part of it has beenthe misunderstanding.
And I think whether it'swillful misunderstanding or
whether it's honestmisunderstanding will be yet to
(16:11):
be seen.
But in a lot of the Westernchurches, it's almost like this
has been used by certainprimates to say, ah, see, if
you're with GAFCON, now you'vegone too far.
They're they're looking for areason to bring action against
these guys.
And I've I said when I was inIreland, I'm not a
constitutional expert, but thereare protections within our
constitutions around the globewith provinces that make sure
(16:31):
that primates don't have thatkind of, again, magisterial
power just to throw someone out,thought police.
I mean, we're into sort ofOrwellism.
We have, you know, it'sagainst, it's against the
primates code to think thesethings or or believe these
things about the Anglicanism.
The challenge is as I go there,my ability to say to folks,
listen, hear it from GAFCONGlobal directly.
(16:52):
We are not saying that ifyou're part of GAFCON, you have
to leave the Church of Ireland.
We're not saying that.
What we're saying is we wantyou to be engaged with GAFCO.
End stop, full stop.
Dominic Steele (17:03):
It's the same message for the mixed um
province there as it is to themixed province in Australia.
Now, Anglican Church in NorthAmerica, you're a bishop in the
Anglican Church in NorthAmerica.
From my seat here in Sydney, Ijust look over there and think,
what is going on?
Paul Donison (17:16):
Yeah.
Um, we've got canons in placeand constitutional processes.
We've even refined some ofthose processes and are working
through it.
We've learned a lot.
Um, but we're in ouradolescence.
(17:36):
We're you know, 16, 17 yearsold as the ACNA, which means
we're kind of an awkwardteenager instead of Trevor
Burrus, Jr.
Dominic Steele (17:43):
We should say for those who are listening to
this who are not following thisclosely, there's three senior
bishops who are um uh underinvestigation accusations
against them.
And uh and and really it's allbeen a bit messily handled.
That's probably anunderstatement.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Paul Donison (18:01):
That's exactly right.
And and and we're what we'reattempting to do is is follow
our canons and follow ourprocedures.
And I will say, to quote myfriend Brian Holland, who's the
uh dean president at TrinityAnglican Seminary, he wrote a
great substack on this when thisall came out, because people
are saying the sky is falling,these these these disciplinary
proceedings are demonstratingmaybe the church is is done for,
(18:23):
at least the ACNA.
Um but the truth is, is asHolland says in his substack, he
said, um discipline is not asign that the church is dying.
Discipline is a sign that thechurch is taking holiness
seriously.
And I think there's somethingin that, that we're actually
leaning into this and we'remaking mistakes along the way
and we're repenting of those,we're fixing our systems, but
(18:44):
there is an earnest desire toactually deal with these
disciplinary issues open,publicly, canonically,
constitutionally.
Um and so in doing so, therethe hope is that actually we're
learning through this uh so thatthe church actually can be a
safer place.
So I believe that at the end ofall of this, though we are
going through a real, a realtrial and tribulation right now
(19:05):
as the ACNA, um, that I think onthe other side of this, the
Lord will have taught us a lotabout what it means to be the
church and how to do things wellfor safe churches and for good
leadership.
Dominic Steele (19:15):
Now talking about um complementarianism,
because that's an elephant inthe room.
Sure.
I'm a complementarian person,but there are some people who uh
who would think you have to becomplementarian to be in GAFCO,
but you're running a broaderline than that.
Paul Donison (19:32):
Oh, much more so.
Because the the again, one ofthe misconceptions has happened
uh that GAFCON has a particularposition on complementary and
egalitarian realities.
The truth is these are reallyimportant issues.
Really important issues.
And obviously, I live in theACNA happily with all that
tension.
Dominic Steele (19:49):
Happily, it's certainly there's certainly
tension there.
Paul Donison (19:51):
And I say happily because I'd rather have the, I
mean, I'd rather have theseproblems than the other problems
of what we came out from theEpiscopal Church and the
Anglican Church in Canada.
I mean, I'll take theseproblems.
Um, these are problems withinthe family, and they're really
important issues.
Uh, but in the JerusalemDeclaration in Article 12,
intentionally it wrote in aboutdiversity within secondary
matters.
(20:11):
And anyone who is part of thatinitial conference will know
that's exactly what we weretalking about.
That the Article 12 wasspeaking specifically about
women's orders and was uh amongother things, but certainly was
saying we have got to allowthere to be diversity.
Because again, I'll say,Dominic, that within the
Anglican pro the global umAnglican communion provinces,
within the GAFCO provinces,outside of Nigeria, my
(20:34):
understanding is there is not asingle province that's a full
member of GAFCON outside ofNigeria that's fully
complementarian from bishop todeacon.
Every one of the otherprovinces will have some degree
of egalitarian ministry at somelevel of order within their
churches.
So this is just the realitythat we are a mixed within the
province.
Which in their within theirprovince.
(20:55):
That's right, dioceses will goone way or another way.
And so from our perspective, isGAFCON again back to the vision
of a fellowship of autonomousprovinces that, as Article 12
says, has appropriate diversityon secondary issues.
Secondary issues again beingthose things that are not
keeping people from eternalsalvation or damning them to
(21:16):
hell.
Right?
First order issues are aboutthings that get in the way of
someone's salvation.
I mean, or do you think it'sreally issues?
Dominic Steele (21:24):
I mean, does the scriptures speak clearly?
You know, and so I mean wewould agree that the scriptures
speak clearly on the issue ofsexuality, gender.
Um when you come tocomplementarianism, maybe
somebody might say to me, um,well I can j I can read it to
(21:49):
interpret the scriptures thisway.
And I think I'm not sure youcan, but maybe I could concede
if you crossed your fingers,squinted, you know.
Sure, sure.
You sort of could work it outto get there.
Paul Donison (22:01):
Well, and these and these issues are really
important because again, I dothink we've talked about the
sort of the univocal nature ofscripture on certain issues, and
then there's there's arguably,and not everyone agrees with
that, there's a multiple readinguh or multiple readings within
scripture, arguably, even thosewho are having a plain canonical
reading of scripture that woulddisagree and would say attempt
to be fully biblical to sayhere's an egalitarian position.
(22:23):
Um and so so the argument is isI think even further than that,
though, is when Paul, forexample, in some of the moral
vice lists, will go throughthese disciplinary issues of
things that are going on inunrepentant behavior, and will
say those who do these things,and of course homosexuality is
included in that, will say thosewho do these things shall not
inherit the kingdom of God.
And and we got to take thatseriously.
(22:44):
And so suddenly this idea thatI often tell people in my own
cathedral context who arenewcomers, they'll say, listen,
you know, we're not perfect.
We're not suggesting everyone'sperfect, we're all sinners, but
we're repentant sinners.
And so when the church teachesus not to be repentant of sin,
then we are actually creating afirst-order issue of someone's
salvation.
Yeah.
On question of if a woman's inthe pulpit or not and ordained,
(23:05):
those are really importantissues that get people very
upset and they worry.
They'll say, Well, if you readthe Bible that way, then I'm not
sure you're reading the Bibleright.
But at the end of the day, mostwill say, will agree it's not
going to keep people out ofheaven because a woman may or
may not be in that role.
Some will disagree, and thenfor them it's a first-order
issue.
GAFCON has said from thebeginning, it's not a
first-order issue, and thereforewe can disagree on it.
Dominic Steele (23:27):
Now, the big conference you've got, we've got
this one in Abuja, but yournext big, big conference is
2008, and you're moving fromJerusalem to Athens.
Paul Donison (23:39):
Yeah, 2028, we uh voted the primates voted in our
most recent meeting that havingdone all the research, we're so
thankful that we had uh ourglobal operations manager, a
good Sydney boy, uh Canon JodyMcNeil, uh did some great
research for us at the requestof the primates and for a whole
lot of reasons, discerned thatour 10-year pattern of going
(23:59):
back to Jerusalem was just nottenable.
And so we looked at a few otheroptions, and you know, we've
sort of gone Europe.
If you if you sort of putJerusalem in Europe, you say
Jerusalem, and then we've goneAfrica, Jerusalem, Africa.
And we thought, well, wherecould we go, which would be a
Jerusalem-like site that wouldhave the same kind of biblical,
(24:21):
unique role that could be reallyattractive and a place to
gather?
And we said Athens.
And we presented that, and itlooks really good.
So yeah, we're going to Athensin 2028.
It's gonna be, we hope, thebiggest conference ever.
And I can just imagine some ofthe sites.
Well, I'm not even gonna saythem, just those who are
listening can or watching canthink about all the cool sites
right around Athens that wecould gather, take photos,
(24:43):
right?
I mean, there's gonna be suchgreat things we can do together.
Great photo opportunities,great worship opportunities.
Dominic Steele (24:48):
So yeah, it's gonna be really cool.
Great.
Now, you've been touringAustralia.
Um, how's it been going?
Paul Donison (24:55):
I think it's gone great.
We did five cities in fivedays, which uh means I really I
have not I've not had muchsightseeing, but uh met a lot of
great people.
And uh I've I've I've reallygotten comfortable with Qantas
Airlay Airways.
Um I know Qantas Plains reallywell.
Um but no, it's been so greatto start in Melbourne and then
(25:15):
one of the things all around.
Dominic Steele (25:16):
Is actually I'm imagining having serious
conversations with some of oursenior leaders attempting to win
them over.
Paul Donison (25:25):
And that's exactly it.
I mean, it's been anopportunity for honest
conversation.
Uh, we've had both leaders'meetings, one-on-one meetings,
and then big public events.
And I've just been soencouraged to have people sit
down with me and say some hardthings, say, hey, we don't like
how you wrote that.
And I said, I didn't write it.
I was, you know, I was at themeeting, but it's the private
statement.
But but being able to talkthrough and say, I get what
you're saying and I hear you,but then being able to have an
(25:47):
opportunity to respond andseeing in many cases folks
realize, wow, this is actually amuch better moment than we
realize.
As I've been saying, Dominic,in a lot of places, the Western
critics, even within, you know,the more evangelical camp, the
Western criticism has has beenprofound.
There's been a lot of it aroundthe world.
I've heard it.
I'm not surprised by any of it.
Um, what people need toremember is there's good answers
(26:10):
to all of that.
Some of the answer is wait tillyou know G26, we'll answer some
of those things.
But remember that the responsein most of the Africans, South A
Southeast Asian, um, SouthAmerican churches have been
really positive.
Like when I talk to our folksaround the world in those
settings, they're saying this isamazing.
They're so excited.
In fact, some of them aresaying that's a very important
thing.
I mean, it's fine.
(26:32):
Exactly.
And the whole colonial thing,which I think is more and more
than a lot of people.
Dominic Steele (26:35):
I mean, we just talked about this before that I
mean, there is an issue of theproblem of apostasy and
revisionism, but there is alsoan issue of the way the English
have treated the Africans.
Exactly right.
Paul Donison (26:50):
Well, even look in the Crown Nominations
Committee.
I mean, the the the view onthis was such a snub.
It was such a sub becauseagain, it's it's this idea that
there'll be some token memberswho will you know broaden out
the council, still a m tinyminority uh making up the Crown
Nominations Committee.
And then the names come out,and we all look at the names,
and frankly, everyone in theglobal church was saying with no
(27:13):
disrespect to the individuals,who are these people?
I mean, they didn't go and graba primate out of a country or a
major leading bishop or atheologian out of the global
south.
They grabbed people that mostof us didn't even know.
And again, the the view wasagain, this is sort of typical
English colonial tokenism thatsays, you know, we'll take it
from here, you know, we'll giveyou a little bit.
Keep talking, be part of theconversation.
Dominic Steele (27:35):
Don't you worry about that, Chaps.
Paul Donison (27:36):
Yeah, don't you worry about that.
And I think the same thing, andI'll be critical of the
Iascapho report, the NairobiCairo um report that comes out
talking about a rotatingpresidency of the communion.
Again, this is just typical, Ithink, colonial tactics on we'll
just give you a little bit soyou can feel like you've got a
bit more of a voice, but there'sno sense that the communion
(27:57):
office is going to change any ofthe ways they function.
You know, the apparatusunderneath this is gonna
continue to function as italways has.
And I think what GAFCON istrying to say is no more.
We're just the global churchwhere the epicenter of
Christianity, let aloneAnglicanism, has moved
completely to the majorityworld.
Um we we knew that years agowith Philip Jenkins' books, with
(28:19):
Lamin Sene, who got whosegospel is this?
I mean, they were all sayingthe epicenter is.
Dominic Steele (28:26):
I mean, I'm sure it was for you and as it was
for me, that when you go to oneof those Gaffred Gaff GAFCON
conferences, you just have theexperience of meeting this
extraordinary number of highlyquality Christian leaders.
Absolutely.
Um from Africa.
Paul Donison (28:43):
And and what's encouraging is is not only the
strength of conviction, thefaith under pressure, all the
things we know about thepersecuted church, the joy, the
incredible joy.
I think sometimes the Westernchurch has got to rediscover the
joy of the gospel.
You go to the African church,you go to the South American
church.
I go to I go to Miguel Uchoa'sCathedral in Brazil for
confirmation, and it's it's aparty.
(29:05):
I mean, people are so excitedto have hands laid on by bishops
for come Holy Spirit andrefresh your people.
And they're they're having aparty.
And I'm thinking, yeah, we needa little bit of that in Dallas.
I think the more Westernchurches could do a little bit
more of that.
Um but it's not just the joyfor me, also, it's it's the
strength of their training.
I mean, what I'm so impressedwith when we're doing our
bishops' training institutes,when we're having speakers come
(29:27):
up and really give truly globalrepresentation on the stage at
our conferences, these arebrilliant leaders.
These are mission leaders,these are theological leaders.
I go to the Nigerian church,and I was I was so amazed and
humbled at the quality ofteaching.
Every morning we had a morningprayer, we had preaching, and I
thought, these preachers areamazing.
(29:48):
I mean, I would give up mypulpit in Texas anytime for
these guys to come in.
And so I think part of whatwe're relearning, Dominic, is
that God has done an amazingthing in the majority world
church.
And it's time for a lot of theWesterners, and many of us
who've gone to the conferenceshave seen this, but it's time
for us to have an opportunity tocatch up and say, the Lord's
moving forward.
(30:09):
And I'm just so thanks that weare thankful that we get to be
part of it in the West.
Dominic Steele (30:12):
I mean, I just personally um sit in awe as over
the last few years I've got toknow Lauren.
And I mean, that he, as a man,as a young man, was the leader
of the Compassion Project,Caring for People post the
genocide in Rwanda.
And then I I talked to him acouple of years ago and I said,
(30:35):
So what's your project at themoment?
This is before CAFCON.
What's your project at themoment?
And he said, Oh, I'm startingthe East African Christian
University.
That's right.
And I just thought, what am Idoing with my life?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Paul Donison (30:46):
Exactly.
And it launched during COVID.
Yeah.
This is thinking, let's launcha new Christian university that
is just packed with studentsnow.
And again, do it during COVID.
I'm just here twiddling mythumb.
I know.
I know.
No, it's really incredible tosee.
And again, this is what I thinkis encouraging when people ask,
why should you be part ofGAFCON?
Right.
And there's a lot of folks, Ithink, in strong Western
(31:07):
churches.
I mean, ACNA, I mean Sydney andACNA are in similar camp.
I mean, we've got we've gotgreat leadership.
I mean, ACNA is in a bit of amess right now.
We're dealing with some ofthat, but still, all these
people around the room, and I gofor college of bishops'
meetings, these are brothers wholove the Bible, love the Lord,
and long for the day of hisappearing.
Um, why do we need GAFCON?
And I think part of it is notonly do we get an opportunity to
(31:28):
give and support and and andand add to this movement, but
really we get to receive.
We get ourselves emboldened, weget strengthened.
Uh, I've been sharpened as aleader.
I say things from the pulpit ina Western context that I would
have never said 20 years ago.
Not because I was afraid, butbecause I'd never had it modeled
for me.
Dominic Steele (31:47):
And you've watched the example of some of
these.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Thanks so much for coming totalk to us.
This has been great, Dominic.
My guest on The Pastor's Heart,Paul Donison.
He's the general secretary ofthe GAFCON movement.
And uh look, that's going to bea big couple of days in Abuja,
Nigeria next March.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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