February 3, 2025 • 35 mins
How does godliness play out differently if I am a man, a woman, a young man, a young woman, a husband or a wife?
All Christians are called to live like Christ. Why does the Apostle Paul choose to write about what godliness looks like for the older and younger and for us as men and women, rather than more generally for us as people?
Does our age and sex have implications for the challenges we face in living for Jesus?
Are these things just human constructs or elements of divine gift?
And what implications does this have for how we think about discipleship and our lived experience of complementarian ministry?
Paul Grimmond is a senior lecturer at Sydney’s Moore Theological College. Paul gave the keynote address at the Priscilla and Aquila conference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
how does godliness play out differently if I am a
man or a woman, a young man, ayoung woman, an old man, an old
woman, a husband or a wife?
It is the pastor's heart, it'sdominic steel, and paul grimmond
is with us.
All christians are called tolive like Christ.
So why does Paul, in places,choose to talk about godliness
(00:28):
as older and younger, as men andwomen, rather than just as for
people?
Does our age or sex haveimplications for the challenges
that we're going to face inliving for Jesus?
Are these things just humanconstructs or are they elements
of divine gift?
And what implications does allthis have for how we think about
(00:50):
discipleship and our livedexperience in Christian ministry
?
Paul Grimmond is a seniorlecturer at Sydney's Moore
Theological College.
He gave the keynote addressesyesterday at the Priscilla and
Aquila conference and he is heretoday to talk about that.
Paul, looking at Paul's letterto Titus and Titus 2, it seems
(01:14):
to me that some of theseencouragements to godliness that
are addressed at, if you like,specific demographics they're
amongst the most contestedverses in the New Testament.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it?
What I find fascinating is thatthere's a string of
encouragements to godly living,some of which we just go of
course that's what you should doas Christians and then read the
next one and you go oh there'sno way.
I'm not sure that that's what weshould be doing, which I find
really interesting.
So some of them are notcontested at all.
(01:46):
Some of them are deeplycontested.
Why is that the case?
Well, I think it's actuallybecause any time we're reading
the Bible, god says all sorts ofthings to us, some of which
feel kind of more normal andnatural and some of which feel
uncomfortable because of who Iam in the particular time and
(02:08):
moment in history in which Ilive.
So, at different points inhistory and at different places,
or even at different points inmy life, something that wasn't
controversial 15 years ago mightfeel controversial to me now
because of the people that Iwork with or because of my life
experiences, or any one of anumber of different things.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Just, as you say that .
I'm remembering that I wasteaching on Titus to a group of
humanities students doing themedia ministry and by far and
away the most controversialverse was just that first verse
of Paul, a servant of God andapostle of Jesus Christ, for the
faith of God's elect, for theirknowledge of the truth, with
(02:45):
the definite article that leadsto godliness, that there was a
thing called truth and you needto hold on to that.
And it does feel to me likeactually some of the angst over
truth has kind of I don't knowsoftened a little over the last
10 years.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's some merit in that.
I think we isn't it interestinghow, as life goes along, what
feels contentious shifts andchanges with kind of what's
going on in our society.
Yeah, and in different culturalgroups In different cultural
groups.
So a few years ago now I waspreaching on 1 Timothy 2 and the
verse about women, you know,not teaching men and being
(03:24):
silent, and I was talking to afriend about how I was
struggling with that and tryingto work out what to do within my
context and the kind ofdifficulty people were
experiencing with that, and hesaid, oh, he was from a very
different ethnic background fromme.
He was pastoring a church withpeople from very different
ethnic background.
He said we've done that passagerecently.
Nobody asked a single questionabout that verse, the teaching
(03:45):
part.
The teaching part they did askabout women should adorn
themselves in godliness and notwith braided hair or gold or
jewels or costly attire.
He said that was the verse thatreally created a lot of issue
for us.
And so he said we had all thesequestions about what does the
word not mean in that verse?
So it's fascinating as we readparts of Scripture that feel
(04:08):
normal to us.
We'll go, of course that's true, and at other times and usually
it's because of forces from ourculture or our personal
experience push against us, westart to read much more
cautiously and carefully.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
In your talk yesterday you spoke about
intrinsic clues in the text,about how we should approach
these verses, and then extrinsicissues.
Can you just give us that riff?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, Well, I mean, I think actually, if you think
about how communication occursin the Bible, each thing that we
read occurs in the context ofits book.
So in the case of Titus, thereason that we actually read
some of these things and go, oh,of course they're just normal
and natural and true, can bebecause of our experience.
But if we're Christians, wewant to go oh, actually that
(04:56):
should be part of my experiencebecause it fits in with the
truth that God's communicatinghere.
So, rather than just feelingcomfortable or uncomfortable
because of my history orcultural moment, I want to be
asking the question how do thesetruths fit in the unfolding
message that God's speaking tous at this point in the
scripture?
And so the most important thingas we start reading is what's
(05:16):
internal to the book of Titus?
How does Titus teach me to readthese instructions?
Are they for me, against me?
Are they massageable?
That kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So what are they?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So I would say well, actually, the very first verse,
paul says that he's an apostleset apart for the sake of Jesus,
but for the sake of God's elect, for their knowledge of the
truth which accords withgodliness.
And that idea of truth andgodliness going hand in hand
occurs right through the letter.
So, chapter 1, you appoint aselders people who are godly
(05:50):
because they have to teach thetruth and teach the life that
goes with it.
And in fact the false teachersthat they're combating are known
by their lifestyle, who theyare.
They deny the truth that theyspeak by the way that they live.
Truth and godliness go hand inhand.
And then, for the rest of theletter, from chapters 2 to 4,
paul alternates between sets ofinstructions.
(06:12):
Here are things about how tolive, with declarations of why
we should live that way, andeach time it's about the nature
of what God has done for us inJesus, or the nature of what God
is like and his work throughthe spirit in our lives.
Give us an example.
Yeah, so Titus 2.1,.
Paul says to Titus teach whataccords with sound doctrine.
(06:36):
But he doesn't go on to giveyou like a lesson on
justification.
He says older men are to belike sober-minded, dignified,
self-controlled.
They're to be kind of sound infaith, in love and in
steadfastness.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
But I always expect him to give the justification
you do.
Why does he get that wrong?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, we use the word doctrine and we think these
kind of big ideas, but Paul'stalking about what aligns with
doctrine.
I think in Scripture we don'tjust teach truth about who Jesus
is that's vitally important,and don't get me wrong but Paul
thinks there is a way of lifethat goes together with Jesus as
Lord, and you teach the wholepackage, and they both inform
(07:15):
and make sense of each other.
So in chapter 2, there's thisset of instructions to older men
, younger men, older women,younger women, to bond servants,
etc.
And then, in verses 11 to 14,he comes back, though, to the
big principle Well, you shoulddo these things, because the
grace of God teaches us to sayno to ungodliness and to put on
(07:36):
self-control and upright andgodly lives.
But what I find really helpfulabout those verses is the way
that they situate where we arein history.
The grace of God has appeared.
It's saved you and prepared youfor godliness.
Oh, and, by the way, you'rewaiting for the appearing of our
great God and Savior, jesusChrist.
You're going to meet him again.
(07:56):
And who is the one you're goingto meet?
The one who died in order toredeem you from lawlessness and
to purify you to be zealous forgood works.
So God has done this work.
You're going to meet Jesusagain in the future and now.
This is the way that you live,as someone who has been changed
by that gospel.
These instructions are thegodliness that goes side by side
(08:19):
with the truth about what Godhas done in Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What about the extrinsic scriptural cues that
relate here?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
As we read a passage, right if I had read in Titus 2,
you know, because Jesus hasdied for you and because you're
going to appear again before thethrone of the one who's died to
save you from all this and saveyou for good works, you should
brush your teeth every day, youshould put away some money into
a retirement savings plan andyou should do something nice for
(08:50):
yourself once a week.
We would all kind of go, ah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
It doesn't fit with the broader tone.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It doesn't fit right Now.
God can say something once andwe would still need to take that
seriously.
But the reality is that in manyof the instructions in the
shape of the Christian life,it's not just a one-off drip,
but it's a thing that we see atmany other places in Scripture.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I thought that about 1 Timothy 2 that I've wondered
if 1 Timothy, 2.11 or 10.11wasn't in the Scriptures, would
actually my pattern of Christianministry be different?
And I'm not sure that it would,because there's a framework of
teaching Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think that's right.
So most of the commandments,even the contested ones, occur
in multiple other places in theNew Testament.
So it's not like this is aone-off, but this seems to be
the pattern of the way that Paultalks about the Christian life.
So I think that those extrinsiccues kind of help us as well to
go.
When Paul talks about thesethings, he's not thinking that
(09:54):
he's sharing something that'slike this is a cultural thing
that you just should do for thesake of evangelism.
He's saying this is the kind oflife that matches with someone
who's trying to follow thelordship of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now saying this is the kind of life that matches
with someone who's trying tofollow the lordship of jesus.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Now, what's the argument against what you've
just said?
Um, uh, so I mean, what are thefeminist theologians say, yeah,
I mean, there's a number ofoptions.
Um, some of them will argueabout that like evangelistic
purpose.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Paul says in this passage live this way in order
to adorn the gospel and thatwould have adorned the gospel in
the first century, but itdoesn't today.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So if I was to kind of characterize that argument,
I'd say it's something likethere's these culturally
relative practices that, for thesake of the gospel, you should
put aside and change, becauselife changes and this is what's
going to honor Jesus now.
That's one kind of framework.
There's another one, which I'veread, where a woman argues for
a particular kind of ethic, avirtue ethic rather than a kind
(10:49):
of ontological, deontologicalethic where she says what's the
difference?
Well, so deontology would belike these are a set of commands
, whereas virtue is more kind of.
Here's a general picture ofwhat a person should be like,
and that picture is a bit kindof rubbery and fluid, but it
describes some kind of goodthings that you should be trying
to do and then she argues onthe basis of that.
(11:10):
Clearly, some of the thingshere are really culturally
relative, and again it comesback to the cultural relativity
piece, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And some of them actually saying this is a
harmful teaching.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Absolutely so.
Elizabeth Schussler-Fri enza,in the introduction to the
commentary on the pastoralepistles in her kind of wisdom
commentary series um, saysscripture is this garden full of
beauty and real danger.
And at one point she actuallysays if you submit yourself to
scripture's worldview, you willbe harmed.
(11:41):
Basically so she.
So she sees herself as… Men andwomen.
Men and women Harmed and to beprotected.
She says if you submit yourselfto the I think it's the
worldview or to the picture Ithink you might have the quote
there somewhere, dominic yeah,she basically says if you submit
yourself to this… oh, here itis …there'll be harm as critical
feminist interpretation forwellbeing.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
this wisdom commentary seeks to elaborate
the beauty and fecundity of thisscripture garden and at the
same time point to the harm thatit can do when one submits to
its world of vision.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah.
So they're actually deeplycommitted to the fact that
scripture is it's not God's book, it's a human book.
They believe that it's a bookthat was written by people
trying to do some good thingsand bad things in this world.
Because it's part of areligious discourse that affects
people, they feel like theyneed to engage with it, and even
(12:40):
many of them would describethemselves as wanting to know
God or live for God in some way,shape or form.
But they have a very differentview of scripture.
And so Annette Huizinga, who'swritten the pastoral epistles
commentary she's written a lotin the kind of pastoral space in
the last kind of 10 to 15 years.
In her commentary she arguesthat Titus wasn't written by
(13:01):
Paul, it wasn't written to Titusand it wasn't written about the
church on the island of Crete.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, whereas you're saying, actually, if I know God,
then that will work for my good, for my family's good,
absolutely, for my husband'sgood, my wife's good, yeah, and
I need to trust him that thistruth will lead for godliness
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So what do you want us to do?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
What do I want us to do?
What does God want us to do?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I mean, I think God wants us to engage deeply with
the commands that are here inthe passage right and to think
about well, what do they mean?
How do we make sense of them inlight of the rest of Scripture?
How do we actually live themout in practice with one another
?
And I think that that meanstaking these commandments
seriously and working out how toplace them in their biblical
(13:59):
and gospel context.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Okay, Well, let me bowl them up to you, and I mean,
here's some godliness commandsfor young men, old men, young
women, old women.
You Titus 2, verse 1, are toproclaim these things consistent
with sound teaching.
Older men are to beself-controlled, worthy of
(14:21):
respect, sensible, sound infaith, love and in endurance.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
The things that really strike me there, the idea
of being kind of dignified likeme there, um the the idea of
being kind of dignified,sober-minded, etc.
Um, the commentaries talk alittle bit about kind of almost
as an older man wearing a halterbeing restrained.
You know how we put halters onlittle children to stop them
running away horses yeah,interesting.
And as we get older, um, it'spossible to again enter into
(14:51):
that space where we get a bitcarried away with ourselves.
Isn't it To be the person whospeaks, who sprouts forth their
opinion, who tells others whatto do, who's quick to speak.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I've had 20 years of experience here, yeah, well at
least 20, don't you?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And so, whereas Scripture's giving this picture
of this dignified, sober,restrained man who's sound in
faith and in love, so a man, ashe grows older, who's one of
their great works under Christ,and what he's longing for the
Spirit to do in him is toactually grow in love for all of
these people, for the young,noisy people who make decisions
(15:29):
too quickly, who don't respectthe years and wisdom that you
have.
Rather than feeling the need toassert yourself in that
position, what would it mean tolive amongst people, to love
them well, to give them anexample of what godliness likes,
and to speak the truth in love.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
In the same way, older women are to be reverent
in behaviour, not slanderers norslaves to excessive drinking.
Is it only women who havedifficulties older women with
alcohol?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think so.
One of the interesting thingsabout these commands some
commands in Scripture are justuniversal.
Like in Colossians 3, the Biblejust addresses us as men and
women and says do these things,don't do these things In other
places.
The Bible just addresses us asmen and women and says do these
things, don't do these things Inother places.
The Bible chooses to directparticular commands to
particular people in particularstages of life, as male and
(16:21):
female, as older and younger,just because maybe of the
temptations that occur, orsometimes because there are
specific things about being menand women that affect us in the
way that we do.
Relationship, godliness getsplayed out in the shape of life
and relationship.
So it's not like you're a manand you're supposed to go oh
fantastic, I can get sloshedanytime I like, because that's a
command only for older women.
(16:41):
But he does say for older women, as you're thinking about being
reverent in your behavior, asyou're thinking about having
your outward expression of lifematch your inward commitment to
Jesus, here are some things thatyou might like to think about.
And so he talks about slanderand the drinking of much wine,
which I wonder if in his contextor he just sees.
(17:02):
More generally, for older women, maybe these are things that
are temptations.
Now I was struck by a sister whotalked to me yesterday about
the fact that that verse hadreally affected her during the
talk yesterday.
Because she says sometimes whenI feel insecure or difficult, I
find myself going to anotherfriend to talk about that person
over there and what's going onand it's subtle slander, but
(17:24):
it's still.
I realise it's what I do andit's something that I need to
work on.
And I do wonder, culturally forus, whether particularly life's
stressful.
You're perhaps getting to thattime of life when you're getting
a little older and things are abit messier.
Sometimes anxiety plays moredeeply.
Have you gotten into theroutine of using alcohol at the
(17:45):
end of each day just to managethat situation?
Is that healthy for you?
Is that going in a good place?
You know these things.
They're just things that weneed to be thoughtful about as
we let godliness play its wayout in our lives.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Now the next line is about teaching what is good to
encourage the young women tolove their husbands.
And then we get into submission.
I'm a little surprised herethat Paul doesn't have a
sentence about husbandscherishing their wives, because
if I was his sub-editor I wouldhave encouraged him to deal with
that first.
(18:18):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Or did you worry about that too, I mean?
So I chose in my talk to saysomething about husbands
yesterday because I think inlight and this is one of those
things where you've got theextrinsic cues of the rest of
Scripture there are other partsof the Scripture where he always
talks about the reciprocalrelationship.
He doesn't choose to do in thisparticular place.
I think that's because hissense of sensitivity around this
(18:44):
particular issue is perhaps alittle different from ours, but
again, it's not like….
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And he's speaking to his culture.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And he's speaking to his context.
In many places he talks aboutthe responsibility of husbands
to love their wives, to lay downtheir lives, to serve them with
their whole body.
You know that Ephesians 5 orthe picture in Colossians 3 or
whatever else it is.
We are told in different placeshow husbands are to live, and
(19:10):
so it's appropriate for us, andnot unreasonable, to make a
comment about that.
I mean, I found it fascinating.
Um calvin, preaching on thispassage 500 years ago, includes
an entire section where headdresses husbands and says the
fact that your wife's beencalled on to submit to you do
you think that that gives you aright to be authoritarian, or
(19:31):
whatever?
And then he he spends anextended period of time
reminding husbands of the factthat they're called to love
their wives as their own body,to lay down their lives, to
treat her with grace as theco-heir in Christ.
Because he says, this commentis not a claim for men to do
(19:51):
something different or to takerule into their own hands.
As you're hearing commentsdirected to other people, you
could badly misread those if youjust think oh well, this gives
me a right to dot dot dot.
These instructions occur in thebroader shape of scripture and
actually we need to keep talkingabout all of the elements of
(20:12):
relationship as we talk topeople about these things.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I just want to go into a couple of studies and
we'll link to them in the shownotes because you quoted them in
your presentation yesterday,wilcox, I think, and really the
women reporting the highestlevels of satisfaction in
evangelical church-attendingmarriages.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And yet, conversely, on the very fringe of those
congregations, there's reportsof real problems.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Correct.
So one of the things thatWilcox did in his study which
looks at a broad demographic,not just of evangelicals but
people who identify as liberalor Catholic and other things,
and atheists as well, massivesample sizes and he was looking
at different populations and notjust what their beliefs were
but about the regularity oftheir church attendance, and
(21:06):
what he found was patternsaround satisfaction in marriage
and also the occurrence ofreported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage and also the occurrenceof reported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage.
Women who are married to menwho said they were evangelical
but went to church at leastthree times a month, reported
(21:28):
the highest levels ofsatisfaction and the lowest
levels of things like anger andviolence.
But the women who are marriedto men who identified as
evangelical, who rarely or neverwent to church, actually
reported as having the highestlevel of DV and anger associated
with their marriage and muchlower levels of satisfaction.
So, I mean, I think that studyis really helpful for us, you
(21:53):
know.
I think it reminds us that, aswe're teaching the truth about
these things that God calls usto in relationship, like
headship and submission, theyreally need to be situated in a
full-orbed understanding of whatGod has done for us in Christ
what men are called to as wellas what women are called to,
that relationships areself-sacrificial and they're
(22:16):
about partnering and otherthings.
As these other characteristicsare played out.
And we need to be very awarethat the people on the edges of
our congregations are likely tobe very vulnerable, because if
you're a man who has decidedthat you want to live in an
authoritarian way or to be incontrol or whatever else, you
(22:37):
will cherry pick and find thethings in scripture that suit
your position and use thembasically to bolster your
position in relationship withother people.
So we need to teach these thingsin a way that is absolutely
clear that that kind ofbehaviour is abhorrent to God
and abhorrent to us.
(22:57):
And we need to teach women whoare in that context, who very
likely don't have very muchother experience and they might
think that their experience isnormal.
We need to help them tounderstand very deeply that when
we're calling them to submit totheir own husband very deeply,
that when we're calling them tosubmit to their own husband,
(23:18):
we're also calling them tohonour God and serve their
husband and if he is acting inways that are economically
abusive.
So actually and we need to beconcrete if your husband
requires you to give anaccounting of every cent that
you have spent, or if yourhusband wants to know where you
have been every minute of everyday when he isn't with you, or
(23:39):
if your husband demandssubmission and quotes these
verses at you and tells you thatyou must submit, all of those
things are actually signs thathe's being very unhealthy and
abusive in the relationship andif that's happening to you, it
would actually honor God for youto find someone else to talk to
(24:00):
about those things and to seekhelp, Because women who have had
men use scripture and notscripture actually use a couple
of particular verses to bolstertheir position in their
relationship will feel like theyare failing or doing something
wrong to speak out about what'shappening to them.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I think we need to teach very clearly, not avoid
these passages, but talkconcretely.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
What does?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
healthy submission look like, what does genuine
God-honoring leadership looklike, what a healthy marriage
does look like, and we need toget concrete and specific in a
way that helps women and to beable to identify where they're
at and to remind our wholecongregation that some people
will misuse this stuff and as awhole church, we need to be
looking out for those who mightbe vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
This is not just, if you like, what I'm broadcasting
or what I'm teaching from thefront.
It's actually how I'm thinkingabout the people at the very
edge of the community?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And I mean when I think about the people on the
edge of our church.
I wish they were closer.
I mean I wish they were hearingthe Bible more.
I wish they were coming underthe Lordship of Christ more.
I wish they were more part oflet us not give up meeting
together as some of the habit ofdoing.
But I think you're saying thepractical application of this is
(25:21):
I ought to be seeing if I cansee what's going on in their
marriage.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, I think you should be trying to be aware,
looking for those little signsof behaviour, nervousness about
going out with others.
Women will express things likeoh, I don't think I can do that.
My husband might not want me todo that, or it might not even
be that obvious.
They might just be slightlynervous or anxious.
(25:51):
They might wear lots ofclothing that would hide, like
long-sleeved clothing in summerthat hide a bruise, but it isn't
just physical, it is spiritual,it's emotional.
So I mean, I'm so thankful thatour diocese has taken very
seriously safe ministry trainingand many leaders in our
ministry are trained in thesethings.
But I just think as pastors wewant to keep encouraging our
(26:13):
congregations to be aware thatthese truths can be deeply
misused by people and we want tobe aware of people who are on
the fringe.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Let's keep going on these verses the older woman is
to teach the younger woman.
They're to teach what is good,so that they may encourage the
young women to love theirhusbands and to love their
children.
Do you need to be taught tolove your husband?
(26:44):
You've got a wife.
Did she need to be taught tolove you?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I think absolutely.
She needed to be taught to loveme.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I mean, you seem like a lovable guy.
Yeah, thanks, Don.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I just think actually , we all know what it's like to
be human.
Right, it's one thing,Conceptually, I have an idea of
what love is and we have lots oflovely songs about it and I
kind of know it.
But in the practical ins andouts of doing life, what does it
look like to love my husbandand children?
It's messy and complex and somedays it's really hard work.
(27:20):
He's going to be exasperating.
He's going to be exasperating.
I mean, most mothers that I'vespoken to or at some point or
another say to me I'm not surethat I like my children at the
moment.
There are moments when it'sreally hard work and difficult.
And actually, more broadly, whatdoes the Bible tell me?
Actually, to love well meansbeing transformed into the
(27:40):
likeness of Christ, which onlyhappens by the work of God's
word and his spirit.
But Titus is telling us it alsohappens through the modeling
and encouragement and engagementof other brothers and sisters
in our life who are training usto do these kinds of things.
I think it's also helpful andit speaks to another thing about
our world.
You know, I think we think ohwell, being a mother, that's
(28:01):
just about being a woman, andevery woman has maternal
instincts and biological drivesthat help her in this way, or
whatever else.
Actually, different women'sexperience is quite different
from one another.
Some people feel very maternal.
Some women don't feel verymaternal at all.
Whichever one of those you'rein, you're going to need God's
help and the help of others tolearn how to fulfill these roles
(28:22):
that God's given you in yourlife, if they're the roles he's
given you.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Let me come to verse five, to be self-controlled, to
be pure, to be workers at home,kind and in submission to their
husbands.
It's workers at home, I mean.
Just imagine, and you're up theroad at the theological college
, but just imagine you're in myjob and we're right in the
centre of inner city Sydney.
Most couples can't afford toown a house here unless they're
(28:48):
both working full time.
And so is this verse sayingleave this church, go and buy a
cheaper house in the country.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I mean, that is such a complicated question,
isn't it?
What would you say?
I mean that is such acomplicated question, isn't it?
What would you say?
I would say that is onesolution that may actually be
more or less helpful.
So you're not just thinkingabout you know, where could I
afford, but what's going to helpmy godliness?
Where am I going to be involvedin church?
(29:19):
How does life look?
What other responsibilities doI have?
I have aging parents in thearea.
So just simply packing up andmoving somewhere else is a
solution that may work for oneperson.
That doesn't work for another.
Deeply, what we're trying to dois enact godliness in the
relationships and stuff aroundabout us.
So one of the things that I dofind interesting about thinking
about that work as a home phrase, if you go back to kind of the
(29:42):
ancient world and the ancientliterature.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean mean that assumption of go live in the
country is really working on theassumption that we should have
one provider income and itshould be made Absolutely.
Whereas I don't think that'swhere you're going.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
No, it's not where I'm going at all.
I think in the ancient worlds,and in fact really up until the
time of the IndustrialRevolution, the household income
and functioning and everythinghappened because both spouses
were involved in the life of thehousehold, if I can put it like
that.
Very interestingly, there's aguy called Xenophon, writing
(30:14):
about 400 years before our NewTestament, who writes a little
section about kind of householdmanagement where he talks about
a wife being learning to run herhouseholds and the tasks
include spending all of thehousehold finances, making sure
that supplies are up to date,looking after and overseeing the
slaves and the bond servants,looking after the welfare of
(30:36):
people, basically running smallbusiness from the front room
where she's teaching servantshow to spin and then making
cloth and then selling that atthe markets and doing the whole
Proverbs 31 thing, like ourpicture of kind of oh, she stays
at home and she cooks andcleans.
That's a Western 1950sanachronism.
The whole economic life of thehousehold depended on him and
(31:00):
her working together faithfullyin that age and time, and so
when it talks about working athome, that was an extremely
honoured place to be, andparticularly in Scripture, but
even in the broader scope ofthings raising children,
teaching them, training them tolove the Lord, looking over,
(31:21):
probably the financialmanagement of the household.
A whole bunch of other thingswere part of her scope, and the
scriptures talk about not justwithin her household, but a
household bringing blessing tothe community around her,
washing the feet of the saints,looking after the needy.
In 1 Timothy 5, for example, ourconception of working at home
versus biblical conceptions varyapart from each other.
(31:41):
So then you've got to ask whatdo we do with that?
Now you have to translate thata bit.
I think Okay, yeah, translateit.
So I'm thinking post-industrialrevolution.
We work much more in a kind ofliquid economy, so I have to
earn money in order to spend it.
That's the way that lifefunctions.
I need enough money to be ableto function as a household.
(32:02):
That may require both of usworking.
How we manage that around ourdesire to see our households
grow and our kids love Jesus andother things is a really
important thing to think about.
There is really good researchthat, certainly between the ages
of nought and three, primaryattention from a primary
(32:23):
caregiver is really significantfor human development and growth
, so for a woman to actually beavailable enough when her
children, particularly, areyoung.
To be able to attend to them,to spend time with them, to
breastfeed, to be in contactwith them all of the young child
care literature suggests thatthose are all really excellent
(32:44):
things.
So we want to be careful aboutrushing straight back to work
for the sake of my career.
Long term, both men and womenare going to need to work.
But I think even the conceptthat we have, that we cling so
tightly to, about careerprogression, is probably just
putting the focus in slightlythe wrong place.
I think the Bible tells us thatwe work in order to provide for
(33:09):
our needs, provide for thosewho are in need, and to love
people through the work that wedo.
But that happens in the contextof many responsibilities and,
clearly, loving and caring foryour household and raising
children, that's a very preciousthing in God's sight.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us today.
Thanks, dominic.
My guest on the Pastor's Heart,paul Grimmond, senior Lecturer
at Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege and the keynote speaker
at yesterday's Priscilla andAquila Conference there, this is
Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the pastor's heart.
how does godliness play out differently if I am a
man or a woman, a young man, ayoung woman, an old man, an old
woman, a husband or a wife?
It is the pastor's heart, it'sdominic steel, and paul grimmond
is with us.
All christians are called tolive like Christ.
So why does Paul, in places,choose to talk about godliness
(00:28):
as older and younger, as men andwomen, rather than just as for
people?
Does our age or sex haveimplications for the challenges
that we're going to face inliving for Jesus?
Are these things just humanconstructs or are they elements
of divine gift?
And what implications does allthis have for how we think about
(00:50):
discipleship and our livedexperience in Christian ministry
?
Paul Grimmond is a seniorlecturer at Sydney's Moore
Theological College.
He gave the keynote addressesyesterday at the Priscilla and
Aquila conference and he is heretoday to talk about that.
Paul, looking at Paul's letterto Titus and Titus 2, it seems
(01:14):
to me that some of theseencouragements to godliness that
are addressed at, if you like,specific demographics they're
amongst the most contestedverses in the New Testament.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it?
What I find fascinating is thatthere's a string of
encouragements to godly living,some of which we just go of
course that's what you should doas Christians and then read the
next one and you go oh there'sno way.
I'm not sure that that's what weshould be doing, which I find
really interesting.
So some of them are notcontested at all.
(01:46):
Some of them are deeplycontested.
Why is that the case?
Well, I think it's actuallybecause any time we're reading
the Bible, god says all sorts ofthings to us, some of which
feel kind of more normal andnatural and some of which feel
uncomfortable because of who Iam in the particular time and
(02:08):
moment in history in which Ilive.
So, at different points inhistory and at different places,
or even at different points inmy life, something that wasn't
controversial 15 years ago mightfeel controversial to me now
because of the people that Iwork with or because of my life
experiences, or any one of anumber of different things.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Just, as you say that .
I'm remembering that I wasteaching on Titus to a group of
humanities students doing themedia ministry and by far and
away the most controversialverse was just that first verse
of Paul, a servant of God andapostle of Jesus Christ, for the
faith of God's elect, for theirknowledge of the truth, with
(02:45):
the definite article that leadsto godliness, that there was a
thing called truth and you needto hold on to that.
And it does feel to me likeactually some of the angst over
truth has kind of I don't knowsoftened a little over the last
10 years.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's some merit in that.
I think we isn't it interestinghow, as life goes along, what
feels contentious shifts andchanges with kind of what's
going on in our society.
Yeah, and in different culturalgroups In different cultural
groups.
So a few years ago now I waspreaching on 1 Timothy 2 and the
verse about women, you know,not teaching men and being
(03:24):
silent, and I was talking to afriend about how I was
struggling with that and tryingto work out what to do within my
context and the kind ofdifficulty people were
experiencing with that, and hesaid, oh, he was from a very
different ethnic background fromme.
He was pastoring a church withpeople from very different
ethnic background.
He said we've done that passagerecently.
Nobody asked a single questionabout that verse, the teaching
(03:45):
part.
The teaching part they did askabout women should adorn
themselves in godliness and notwith braided hair or gold or
jewels or costly attire.
He said that was the verse thatreally created a lot of issue
for us.
And so he said we had all thesequestions about what does the
word not mean in that verse?
So it's fascinating as we readparts of Scripture that feel
(04:08):
normal to us.
We'll go, of course that's true, and at other times and usually
it's because of forces from ourculture or our personal
experience push against us, westart to read much more
cautiously and carefully.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
In your talk yesterday you spoke about
intrinsic clues in the text,about how we should approach
these verses, and then extrinsicissues.
Can you just give us that riff?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, Well, I mean, I think actually, if you think
about how communication occursin the Bible, each thing that we
read occurs in the context ofits book.
So in the case of Titus, thereason that we actually read
some of these things and go, oh,of course they're just normal
and natural and true, can bebecause of our experience.
But if we're Christians, wewant to go oh, actually that
(04:56):
should be part of my experiencebecause it fits in with the
truth that God's communicatinghere.
So, rather than just feelingcomfortable or uncomfortable
because of my history orcultural moment, I want to be
asking the question how do thesetruths fit in the unfolding
message that God's speaking tous at this point in the
scripture?
And so the most important thingas we start reading is what's
(05:16):
internal to the book of Titus?
How does Titus teach me to readthese instructions?
Are they for me, against me?
Are they massageable?
That kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So what are they?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So I would say well, actually, the very first verse,
paul says that he's an apostleset apart for the sake of Jesus,
but for the sake of God's elect, for their knowledge of the
truth which accords withgodliness.
And that idea of truth andgodliness going hand in hand
occurs right through the letter.
So, chapter 1, you appoint aselders people who are godly
(05:50):
because they have to teach thetruth and teach the life that
goes with it.
And in fact the false teachersthat they're combating are known
by their lifestyle, who theyare.
They deny the truth that theyspeak by the way that they live.
Truth and godliness go hand inhand.
And then, for the rest of theletter, from chapters 2 to 4,
paul alternates between sets ofinstructions.
(06:12):
Here are things about how tolive, with declarations of why
we should live that way, andeach time it's about the nature
of what God has done for us inJesus, or the nature of what God
is like and his work throughthe spirit in our lives.
Give us an example.
Yeah, so Titus 2.1,.
Paul says to Titus teach whataccords with sound doctrine.
(06:36):
But he doesn't go on to giveyou like a lesson on
justification.
He says older men are to belike sober-minded, dignified,
self-controlled.
They're to be kind of sound infaith, in love and in
steadfastness.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
But I always expect him to give the justification
you do.
Why does he get that wrong?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, we use the word doctrine and we think these
kind of big ideas, but Paul'stalking about what aligns with
doctrine.
I think in Scripture we don'tjust teach truth about who Jesus
is that's vitally important,and don't get me wrong but Paul
thinks there is a way of lifethat goes together with Jesus as
Lord, and you teach the wholepackage, and they both inform
(07:15):
and make sense of each other.
So in chapter 2, there's thisset of instructions to older men
, younger men, older women,younger women, to bond servants,
etc.
And then, in verses 11 to 14,he comes back, though, to the
big principle Well, you shoulddo these things, because the
grace of God teaches us to sayno to ungodliness and to put on
(07:36):
self-control and upright andgodly lives.
But what I find really helpfulabout those verses is the way
that they situate where we arein history.
The grace of God has appeared.
It's saved you and prepared youfor godliness.
Oh, and, by the way, you'rewaiting for the appearing of our
great God and Savior, jesusChrist.
You're going to meet him again.
(07:56):
And who is the one you're goingto meet?
The one who died in order toredeem you from lawlessness and
to purify you to be zealous forgood works.
So God has done this work.
You're going to meet Jesusagain in the future and now.
This is the way that you live,as someone who has been changed
by that gospel.
These instructions are thegodliness that goes side by side
(08:19):
with the truth about what Godhas done in Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What about the extrinsic scriptural cues that
relate here?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
As we read a passage, right if I had read in Titus 2,
you know, because Jesus hasdied for you and because you're
going to appear again before thethrone of the one who's died to
save you from all this and saveyou for good works, you should
brush your teeth every day, youshould put away some money into
a retirement savings plan andyou should do something nice for
(08:50):
yourself once a week.
We would all kind of go, ah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
It doesn't fit with the broader tone.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It doesn't fit right Now.
God can say something once andwe would still need to take that
seriously.
But the reality is that in manyof the instructions in the
shape of the Christian life,it's not just a one-off drip,
but it's a thing that we see atmany other places in Scripture.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I thought that about 1 Timothy 2 that I've wondered
if 1 Timothy, 2.11 or 10.11wasn't in the Scriptures, would
actually my pattern of Christianministry be different?
And I'm not sure that it would,because there's a framework of
teaching Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think that's right.
So most of the commandments,even the contested ones, occur
in multiple other places in theNew Testament.
So it's not like this is aone-off, but this seems to be
the pattern of the way that Paultalks about the Christian life.
So I think that those extrinsiccues kind of help us as well to
go.
When Paul talks about thesethings, he's not thinking that
(09:54):
he's sharing something that'slike this is a cultural thing
that you just should do for thesake of evangelism.
He's saying this is the kind oflife that matches with someone
who's trying to follow thelordship of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now saying this is the kind of life that matches
with someone who's trying tofollow the lordship of jesus.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Now, what's the argument against what you've
just said?
Um, uh, so I mean, what are thefeminist theologians say, yeah,
I mean, there's a number ofoptions.
Um, some of them will argueabout that like evangelistic
purpose.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Paul says in this passage live this way in order
to adorn the gospel and thatwould have adorned the gospel in
the first century, but itdoesn't today.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So if I was to kind of characterize that argument,
I'd say it's something likethere's these culturally
relative practices that, for thesake of the gospel, you should
put aside and change, becauselife changes and this is what's
going to honor Jesus now.
That's one kind of framework.
There's another one, which I'veread, where a woman argues for
a particular kind of ethic, avirtue ethic rather than a kind
(10:49):
of ontological, deontologicalethic where she says what's the
difference?
Well, so deontology would belike these are a set of commands
, whereas virtue is more kind of.
Here's a general picture ofwhat a person should be like,
and that picture is a bit kindof rubbery and fluid, but it
describes some kind of goodthings that you should be trying
to do and then she argues onthe basis of that.
(11:10):
Clearly, some of the thingshere are really culturally
relative, and again it comesback to the cultural relativity
piece, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And some of them actually saying this is a
harmful teaching.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Absolutely so.
Elizabeth Schussler-Fri enza,in the introduction to the
commentary on the pastoralepistles in her kind of wisdom
commentary series um, saysscripture is this garden full of
beauty and real danger.
And at one point she actuallysays if you submit yourself to
scripture's worldview, you willbe harmed.
(11:41):
Basically so she.
So she sees herself as… Men andwomen.
Men and women Harmed and to beprotected.
She says if you submit yourselfto the I think it's the
worldview or to the picture Ithink you might have the quote
there somewhere, dominic yeah,she basically says if you submit
yourself to this… oh, here itis …there'll be harm as critical
feminist interpretation forwellbeing.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
this wisdom commentary seeks to elaborate
the beauty and fecundity of thisscripture garden and at the
same time point to the harm thatit can do when one submits to
its world of vision.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah.
So they're actually deeplycommitted to the fact that
scripture is it's not God's book, it's a human book.
They believe that it's a bookthat was written by people
trying to do some good thingsand bad things in this world.
Because it's part of areligious discourse that affects
people, they feel like theyneed to engage with it, and even
(12:40):
many of them would describethemselves as wanting to know
God or live for God in some way,shape or form.
But they have a very differentview of scripture.
And so Annette Huizinga, who'swritten the pastoral epistles
commentary she's written a lotin the kind of pastoral space in
the last kind of 10 to 15 years.
In her commentary she arguesthat Titus wasn't written by
(13:01):
Paul, it wasn't written to Titusand it wasn't written about the
church on the island of Crete.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, whereas you're saying, actually, if I know God,
then that will work for my good, for my family's good,
absolutely, for my husband'sgood, my wife's good, yeah, and
I need to trust him that thistruth will lead for godliness
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So what do you want us to do?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
What do I want us to do?
What does God want us to do?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I mean, I think God wants us to engage deeply with
the commands that are here inthe passage right and to think
about well, what do they mean?
How do we make sense of them inlight of the rest of Scripture?
How do we actually live themout in practice with one another
?
And I think that that meanstaking these commandments
seriously and working out how toplace them in their biblical
(13:59):
and gospel context.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Okay, Well, let me bowl them up to you, and I mean,
here's some godliness commandsfor young men, old men, young
women, old women.
You Titus 2, verse 1, are toproclaim these things consistent
with sound teaching.
Older men are to beself-controlled, worthy of
(14:21):
respect, sensible, sound infaith, love and in endurance.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
The things that really strike me there, the idea
of being kind of dignified likeme there, um the the idea of
being kind of dignified,sober-minded, etc.
Um, the commentaries talk alittle bit about kind of almost
as an older man wearing a halterbeing restrained.
You know how we put halters onlittle children to stop them
running away horses yeah,interesting.
And as we get older, um, it'spossible to again enter into
(14:51):
that space where we get a bitcarried away with ourselves.
Isn't it To be the person whospeaks, who sprouts forth their
opinion, who tells others whatto do, who's quick to speak.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I've had 20 years of experience here, yeah, well at
least 20, don't you?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And so, whereas Scripture's giving this picture
of this dignified, sober,restrained man who's sound in
faith and in love, so a man, ashe grows older, who's one of
their great works under Christ,and what he's longing for the
Spirit to do in him is toactually grow in love for all of
these people, for the young,noisy people who make decisions
(15:29):
too quickly, who don't respectthe years and wisdom that you
have.
Rather than feeling the need toassert yourself in that
position, what would it mean tolive amongst people, to love
them well, to give them anexample of what godliness likes,
and to speak the truth in love.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
In the same way, older women are to be reverent
in behaviour, not slanderers norslaves to excessive drinking.
Is it only women who havedifficulties older women with
alcohol?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think so.
One of the interesting thingsabout these commands some
commands in Scripture are justuniversal.
Like in Colossians 3, the Biblejust addresses us as men and
women and says do these things,don't do these things In other
places.
The Bible just addresses us asmen and women and says do these
things, don't do these things Inother places.
The Bible chooses to directparticular commands to
particular people in particularstages of life, as male and
(16:21):
female, as older and younger,just because maybe of the
temptations that occur, orsometimes because there are
specific things about being menand women that affect us in the
way that we do.
Relationship, godliness getsplayed out in the shape of life
and relationship.
So it's not like you're a manand you're supposed to go oh
fantastic, I can get sloshedanytime I like, because that's a
command only for older women.
(16:41):
But he does say for older women, as you're thinking about being
reverent in your behavior, asyou're thinking about having
your outward expression of lifematch your inward commitment to
Jesus, here are some things thatyou might like to think about.
And so he talks about slanderand the drinking of much wine,
which I wonder if in his contextor he just sees.
(17:02):
More generally, for older women, maybe these are things that
are temptations.
Now I was struck by a sister whotalked to me yesterday about
the fact that that verse hadreally affected her during the
talk yesterday.
Because she says sometimes whenI feel insecure or difficult, I
find myself going to anotherfriend to talk about that person
over there and what's going onand it's subtle slander, but
(17:24):
it's still.
I realise it's what I do andit's something that I need to
work on.
And I do wonder, culturally forus, whether particularly life's
stressful.
You're perhaps getting to thattime of life when you're getting
a little older and things are abit messier.
Sometimes anxiety plays moredeeply.
Have you gotten into theroutine of using alcohol at the
(17:45):
end of each day just to managethat situation?
Is that healthy for you?
Is that going in a good place?
You know these things.
They're just things that weneed to be thoughtful about as
we let godliness play its wayout in our lives.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Now the next line is about teaching what is good to
encourage the young women tolove their husbands.
And then we get into submission.
I'm a little surprised herethat Paul doesn't have a
sentence about husbandscherishing their wives, because
if I was his sub-editor I wouldhave encouraged him to deal with
that first.
(18:18):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Or did you worry about that too, I mean?
So I chose in my talk to saysomething about husbands
yesterday because I think inlight and this is one of those
things where you've got theextrinsic cues of the rest of
Scripture there are other partsof the Scripture where he always
talks about the reciprocalrelationship.
He doesn't choose to do in thisparticular place.
I think that's because hissense of sensitivity around this
(18:44):
particular issue is perhaps alittle different from ours, but
again, it's not like….
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And he's speaking to his culture.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And he's speaking to his context.
In many places he talks aboutthe responsibility of husbands
to love their wives, to lay downtheir lives, to serve them with
their whole body.
You know that Ephesians 5 orthe picture in Colossians 3 or
whatever else it is.
We are told in different placeshow husbands are to live, and
(19:10):
so it's appropriate for us, andnot unreasonable, to make a
comment about that.
I mean, I found it fascinating.
Um calvin, preaching on thispassage 500 years ago, includes
an entire section where headdresses husbands and says the
fact that your wife's beencalled on to submit to you do
you think that that gives you aright to be authoritarian, or
(19:31):
whatever?
And then he he spends anextended period of time
reminding husbands of the factthat they're called to love
their wives as their own body,to lay down their lives, to
treat her with grace as theco-heir in Christ.
Because he says, this commentis not a claim for men to do
(19:51):
something different or to takerule into their own hands.
As you're hearing commentsdirected to other people, you
could badly misread those if youjust think oh well, this gives
me a right to dot dot dot.
These instructions occur in thebroader shape of scripture and
actually we need to keep talkingabout all of the elements of
(20:12):
relationship as we talk topeople about these things.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I just want to go into a couple of studies and
we'll link to them in the shownotes because you quoted them in
your presentation yesterday,wilcox, I think, and really the
women reporting the highestlevels of satisfaction in
evangelical church-attendingmarriages.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And yet, conversely, on the very fringe of those
congregations, there's reportsof real problems.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Correct.
So one of the things thatWilcox did in his study which
looks at a broad demographic,not just of evangelicals but
people who identify as liberalor Catholic and other things,
and atheists as well, massivesample sizes and he was looking
at different populations and notjust what their beliefs were
but about the regularity oftheir church attendance, and
(21:06):
what he found was patternsaround satisfaction in marriage
and also the occurrence ofreported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage and also the occurrenceof reported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage.
Women who are married to menwho said they were evangelical
but went to church at leastthree times a month, reported
(21:28):
the highest levels ofsatisfaction and the lowest
levels of things like anger andviolence.
But the women who are marriedto men who identified as
evangelical, who rarely or neverwent to church, actually
reported as having the highestlevel of DV and anger associated
with their marriage and muchlower levels of satisfaction.
So, I mean, I think that studyis really helpful for us, you
(21:53):
know.
I think it reminds us that, aswe're teaching the truth about
these things that God calls usto in relationship, like
headship and submission, theyreally need to be situated in a
full-orbed understanding of whatGod has done for us in Christ
what men are called to as wellas what women are called to,
that relationships areself-sacrificial and they're
(22:16):
about partnering and otherthings.
As these other characteristicsare played out.
And we need to be very awarethat the people on the edges of
our congregations are likely tobe very vulnerable, because if
you're a man who has decidedthat you want to live in an
authoritarian way or to be incontrol or whatever else, you
(22:37):
will cherry pick and find thethings in scripture that suit
your position and use thembasically to bolster your
position in relationship withother people.
So we need to teach these thingsin a way that is absolutely
clear that that kind ofbehaviour is abhorrent to God
and abhorrent to us.
(22:57):
And we need to teach women whoare in that context, who very
likely don't have very muchother experience and they might
think that their experience isnormal.
We need to help them tounderstand very deeply that when
we're calling them to submit totheir own husband very deeply,
that when we're calling them tosubmit to their own husband,
(23:18):
we're also calling them tohonour God and serve their
husband and if he is acting inways that are economically
abusive.
So actually and we need to beconcrete if your husband
requires you to give anaccounting of every cent that
you have spent, or if yourhusband wants to know where you
have been every minute of everyday when he isn't with you, or
(23:39):
if your husband demandssubmission and quotes these
verses at you and tells you thatyou must submit, all of those
things are actually signs thathe's being very unhealthy and
abusive in the relationship andif that's happening to you, it
would actually honor God for youto find someone else to talk to
(24:00):
about those things and to seekhelp, Because women who have had
men use scripture and notscripture actually use a couple
of particular verses to bolstertheir position in their
relationship will feel like theyare failing or doing something
wrong to speak out about what'shappening to them.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I think we need to teach very clearly, not avoid
these passages, but talkconcretely.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
What does?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
healthy submission look like, what does genuine
God-honoring leadership looklike, what a healthy marriage
does look like, and we need toget concrete and specific in a
way that helps women and to beable to identify where they're
at and to remind our wholecongregation that some people
will misuse this stuff and as awhole church, we need to be
looking out for those who mightbe vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
This is not just, if you like, what I'm broadcasting
or what I'm teaching from thefront.
It's actually how I'm thinkingabout the people at the very
edge of the community?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And I mean when I think about the people on the
edge of our church.
I wish they were closer.
I mean I wish they were hearingthe Bible more.
I wish they were coming underthe Lordship of Christ more.
I wish they were more part oflet us not give up meeting
together as some of the habit ofdoing.
But I think you're saying thepractical application of this is
(25:21):
I ought to be seeing if I cansee what's going on in their
marriage.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, I think you should be trying to be aware,
looking for those little signsof behaviour, nervousness about
going out with others.
Women will express things likeoh, I don't think I can do that.
My husband might not want me todo that, or it might not even
be that obvious.
They might just be slightlynervous or anxious.
(25:51):
They might wear lots ofclothing that would hide, like
long-sleeved clothing in summerthat hide a bruise, but it isn't
just physical, it is spiritual,it's emotional.
So I mean, I'm so thankful thatour diocese has taken very
seriously safe ministry trainingand many leaders in our
ministry are trained in thesethings.
But I just think as pastors wewant to keep encouraging our
(26:13):
congregations to be aware thatthese truths can be deeply
misused by people and we want tobe aware of people who are on
the fringe.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Let's keep going on these verses the older woman is
to teach the younger woman.
They're to teach what is good,so that they may encourage the
young women to love theirhusbands and to love their
children.
Do you need to be taught tolove your husband?
(26:44):
You've got a wife.
Did she need to be taught tolove you?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I think absolutely.
She needed to be taught to loveme.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I mean, you seem like a lovable guy.
Yeah, thanks, Don.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I just think actually , we all know what it's like to
be human.
Right, it's one thing,Conceptually, I have an idea of
what love is and we have lots oflovely songs about it and I
kind of know it.
But in the practical ins andouts of doing life, what does it
look like to love my husbandand children?
It's messy and complex and somedays it's really hard work.
(27:20):
He's going to be exasperating.
He's going to be exasperating.
I mean, most mothers that I'vespoken to or at some point or
another say to me I'm not surethat I like my children at the
moment.
There are moments when it'sreally hard work and difficult.
And actually, more broadly, whatdoes the Bible tell me?
Actually, to love well meansbeing transformed into the
(27:40):
likeness of Christ, which onlyhappens by the work of God's
word and his spirit.
But Titus is telling us it alsohappens through the modeling
and encouragement and engagementof other brothers and sisters
in our life who are training usto do these kinds of things.
I think it's also helpful andit speaks to another thing about
our world.
You know, I think we think ohwell, being a mother, that's
(28:01):
just about being a woman, andevery woman has maternal
instincts and biological drivesthat help her in this way, or
whatever else.
Actually, different women'sexperience is quite different
from one another.
Some people feel very maternal.
Some women don't feel verymaternal at all.
Whichever one of those you'rein, you're going to need God's
help and the help of others tolearn how to fulfill these roles
(28:22):
that God's given you in yourlife, if they're the roles he's
given you.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Let me come to verse five, to be self-controlled, to
be pure, to be workers at home,kind and in submission to their
husbands.
It's workers at home, I mean.
Just imagine, and you're up theroad at the theological college
, but just imagine you're in myjob and we're right in the
centre of inner city Sydney.
Most couples can't afford toown a house here unless they're
(28:48):
both working full time.
And so is this verse sayingleave this church, go and buy a
cheaper house in the country.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I mean, that is such a complicated question,
isn't it?
What would you say?
I mean that is such acomplicated question, isn't it?
What would you say?
I would say that is onesolution that may actually be
more or less helpful.
So you're not just thinkingabout you know, where could I
afford, but what's going to helpmy godliness?
Where am I going to be involvedin church?
(29:19):
How does life look?
What other responsibilities doI have?
I have aging parents in thearea.
So just simply packing up andmoving somewhere else is a
solution that may work for oneperson.
That doesn't work for another.
Deeply, what we're trying to dois enact godliness in the
relationships and stuff aroundabout us.
So one of the things that I dofind interesting about thinking
about that work as a home phrase, if you go back to kind of the
(29:42):
ancient world and the ancientliterature.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean mean that assumption of go live in the
country is really working on theassumption that we should have
one provider income and itshould be made Absolutely.
Whereas I don't think that'swhere you're going.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
No, it's not where I'm going at all.
I think in the ancient worlds,and in fact really up until the
time of the IndustrialRevolution, the household income
and functioning and everythinghappened because both spouses
were involved in the life of thehousehold, if I can put it like
that.
Very interestingly, there's aguy called Xenophon, writing
(30:14):
about 400 years before our NewTestament, who writes a little
section about kind of householdmanagement where he talks about
a wife being learning to run herhouseholds and the tasks
include spending all of thehousehold finances, making sure
that supplies are up to date,looking after and overseeing the
slaves and the bond servants,looking after the welfare of
(30:36):
people, basically running smallbusiness from the front room
where she's teaching servantshow to spin and then making
cloth and then selling that atthe markets and doing the whole
Proverbs 31 thing, like ourpicture of kind of oh, she stays
at home and she cooks andcleans.
That's a Western 1950sanachronism.
The whole economic life of thehousehold depended on him and
(31:00):
her working together faithfullyin that age and time, and so
when it talks about working athome, that was an extremely
honoured place to be, andparticularly in Scripture, but
even in the broader scope ofthings raising children,
teaching them, training them tolove the Lord, looking over,
(31:21):
probably the financialmanagement of the household.
A whole bunch of other thingswere part of her scope, and the
scriptures talk about not justwithin her household, but a
household bringing blessing tothe community around her,
washing the feet of the saints,looking after the needy.
In 1 Timothy 5, for example, ourconception of working at home
versus biblical conceptions varyapart from each other.
(31:41):
So then you've got to ask whatdo we do with that?
Now you have to translate thata bit.
I think Okay, yeah, translateit.
So I'm thinking post-industrialrevolution.
We work much more in a kind ofliquid economy, so I have to
earn money in order to spend it.
That's the way that lifefunctions.
I need enough money to be ableto function as a household.
(32:02):
That may require both of usworking.
How we manage that around ourdesire to see our households
grow and our kids love Jesus andother things is a really
important thing to think about.
There is really good researchthat, certainly between the ages
of nought and three, primaryattention from a primary
(32:23):
caregiver is really significantfor human development and growth
, so for a woman to actually beavailable enough when her
children, particularly, areyoung.
To be able to attend to them,to spend time with them, to
breastfeed, to be in contactwith them all of the young child
care literature suggests thatthose are all really excellent
(32:44):
things.
So we want to be careful aboutrushing straight back to work
for the sake of my career.
Long term, both men and womenare going to need to work.
But I think even the conceptthat we have, that we cling so
tightly to, about careerprogression, is probably just
putting the focus in slightlythe wrong place.
I think the Bible tells us thatwe work in order to provide for
(33:09):
our needs, provide for thosewho are in need, and to love
people through the work that wedo.
But that happens in the contextof many responsibilities and,
clearly, loving and caring foryour household and raising
children, that's a very preciousthing in God's sight.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us today.
Thanks, dominic.
My guest on the Pastor's Heart,paul Grimmond, senior Lecturer
at Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege and the keynote speaker
at yesterday's Priscilla andAquila Conference there, this is
Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the pastor's heart.
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