July 22, 2025 • 26 mins
It is an uncomfortable but important question: What place should numbers have in our thinking about ministry success?
We all want to be faithful. But what happens when the numbers are down? Do we need to change something? Or should we just continue in the same trajectory?
And should we be counting at all?
This is the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. A tension between preaching the word and evaluating what’s actually working.
Phil Colgan has been the long term senior pastor of St George North Anglican in Sydney and presented on a Theology of Numbers at the recent Nexus Conference.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
A theology of statistics.
What place for numbers inministry evaluation?
It is the Pastor's Heart, withDominic Steele, and Phil Colgan,
is with us.
Today we're talking about theappropriateness of setting a
target, setting a goal, settinga number that we're working
towards in our church and then,at the end of the year,
evaluating what happened.
(00:29):
It is an uncomfortable butimportant question.
What place should numbers havein our thinking about ministry
success?
We all say we want to befaithful, but what happens when
the numbers are down?
Do we need to change somethingor do we just keep being
faithful?
Should we be counting at all?
(00:50):
It's the tension between, well,divine sovereignty and human
responsibility.
We want a calm trust in God'swork and yet a real urgency to
see people saved.
A calm urgency, a tensionbetween both preaching the word
and evaluating what's actuallyworking.
Phil Colgan has been long-termsenior pastor at St George North
(01:12):
Anglican in Sydney.
He presented on a theology ofnumbers at a recent Nexus
conference.
Phil, thanks for coming in.
Can we start with your pastor'sheart?
And you do feel this tension,don't you?
Between slow down and be calmI'm a Calvinist and the process
of counting and measuring.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, I think everyone in ministry feels that tension,
don't they?
I think it's inherent At onepoint.
It's a theological question,isn't it?
It's how do we hold togetherthose two truths of Scripture
the wonderful sovereignty of Godover all things, but on the
other side, our responsibilityas human beings and as ministers
(01:52):
?
That's a theological question,but it's also a question that
gets into our heart as pastors.
There's something wrong with usif we don't want our church to
be bigger in number.
Isn't there because we wantmore people?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
to come into the kingdom of God.
More glory to the Lord Jesus,that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But at the same time, there's nothing more dangerous
than numbers, because countingnumbers can lead to pride and we
can start to think that we arethe ones who are solely
responsible for the growth ofthat church.
We can start to sometimesbelieve our own press
responsible for the growth ofthat church.
We can start to sometimesbelieve our own press.
(02:29):
And isn't it sad when you seegreat ones fall because of pride
.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, let's just chase down those two arms of the
tension and give me the classicCalvinist answer.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes.
Well, the classic Calvinistanswer is that we hold the
tension, isn't it?
And it's the heart of lots ofis that we hold the tension,
isn't it?
And it's the heart of lots ofgood theology is holding the
tensions of scripture.
God is sovereign.
God decided before the creationof the world who would be his
children.
God will save, who he will saveand yet the scriptures tell us
(03:03):
we are responsible for ourdecision.
That's true in terms of ourpersonal salvation I have been
chosen by God, and yet I repentand believe and it's true of
every situation in ministry.
God is sovereign, and yet weare responsible for how we use
the good gifts God has given usfor his glory.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And that tension bites on both sides.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, I think, when we understand it correctly, it
bites on both sides, and I thinkthis is really important.
I think sometimes we fall intothe trap of taking a truth of
Scripture and then running withit without letting the other
side of the tension, or in factsometimes many different
competing tensions, bite on it.
(03:47):
So, you know, the classicexample is some of us would sort
of say numbers schmumbers.
Who cares about numbers?
As long as I'm faithful, godwill do what he will do, and so
forth, and that's a wonderfultruth in a sense.
Then the other side of thatcoin would be the person who's
(04:10):
an activist, who says look, oh,these numbers aren't good enough
.
We long to see more people in.
And it's interesting that thetwo would criticise one another,
and you see this sometimes inour circles.
So on the one hand, theactivist says to that person who
rests in the sovereignty of Godhaven't you read the book of
Acts, don't you?
(04:31):
see that God cares about numbers, luke tells us how many are
saved, et cetera, et cetera.
The other person says oh, don'tyou understand what Paul tells
the Corinthians, that it's Godwho brings the growth, and so on
and so forth.
But I think actually, when weget it right, we let both sides
of the tension bite.
(04:52):
And there's never in thescriptures is the sovereignty of
God used as a reason not tofeel an urgency to proclaim
Christ, to care for God's people, to pastor, to disciple.
Never is it used as a reason torest on your laurels.
And in the same way, thaturgency of the gospel never in
(05:17):
the Scriptures undercuts thatconfidence that God is working
his purposes out.
And you see that at points.
You see it in Acts 13, wherePaul and Barnabas are there
preaching in the face of awfulopposition, and at that point
they don't say oh well, clearlyGod has no one in this town.
(05:39):
The door's closed the door'sclosed, we better pack up.
No, they persevere, they pushinto it, they face opposition.
It's struggle.
It's closed, the door's closed,we better pack up.
No, they persevere, they pushinto it, they face opposition.
It's struggle, it's hard andthen, in the end, those God has
chosen believed.
It's both and it's holding thetension.
But it's not just saying I holdboth sides.
It's then letting it bite andpush into you and make you feel
(06:01):
uncomfortable from both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I think push into you and make you feel uncomfortable
from both sides.
I think what's your personaljourney been on this?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no I naturally… Are you a
numbers person?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I am, I am.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm a sceptic of numbers.
I think we might talk aboutthat in a little while the
dangers of numbers.
I'm a sceptic of people takingcredit for the work of God.
So my natural tendency is I geton with being faithful and God
(06:38):
will work through that how hewill work.
But over time I've slightlyrepented.
I've slightly repented of thatcynicism towards caring about
numbers and so forth.
Partially.
I think it comes down to a lothangs on that word faithful.
And so sometimes we say, oh,just be faithful, that's all God
(07:00):
calls us to do, right?
And I would say, yeah, butfaithful includes working as
hard as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That's part of faithfulness.
The outcomes are as hard asthat.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Being faithful involves not being lazy.
It involves using this brainthat God has given me and the
gifts of all the people in mychurch to see as many people as
possible hear the gospel andworking towards that wonderful
goal, under God, of seeing lotsof people presented mature in
Christ on the last day.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Well, I'll come back and ask you in a couple of
minutes about well then, howhave you changed your practice,
as you've changed your thinkingthere?
But what about urgency?
Well, the end not justifyingthe means.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that's where you'regetting into the danger of
numbers.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So when we say, oh well, all that matters is how
many people are in our church,Are coming to our church, coming
to our denomination, and we dowant to see more people come and
that's the danger of.
Oh, we want to see 10% morepeople in Sydney Anglican
churches or we want to see StGeorge North grow by X
percentage, x percentage inconversion, growth or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Sometimes what that can lead to is forgetting the
danger of numbers.
In the end, the number thatmatters is not how many people
are at St George North AnglicanChurch.
The number that matters is howmany people are presented,
mature in Christ on the last day, and you'll actually do
different things if you focus onthe wrong numbers.
(08:35):
So I often say if I was just onabout the size of St George
North, I would do no evangelism.
We would do no evangelismbecause evangelism is a really
ineffective way of growing yourchurch.
Best way to grow your church ishave the best youth group and
the best children's ministry.
Suck the life out of all theother churches in your area and
(08:56):
before you know it, you're theonly viable church.
And I'm being a bit silly, butyou get my point is if you want
to grow a church focus ontransfer growth.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I mean it is interesting.
Our friend Pete Stedman, up atNorwest Church told me the story
of they were growing like crazybecause they were on the cusp
of the new housing developmentspaces there and yet he said we
had a consultation, we hadn'tbeen doing any evangelism,
Nobody had been.
I mean I'll be getting thedetails wrong, but people hadn't
(09:25):
been coming to Christ and itwas a rocket for them and they
changed their practice, theychanged their strategy and the
last 12 months they've baptised45 adults.
Yeah, wonderful, and it's beenan incredible transformation as
a result, and yet he wascoasting along.
Well, he's working hard, but hewasn't asking that hard
question about evangelism.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think this is the thing, isn't it is.
That's the danger of looking atthe wrong numbers and in the
end, there is always a sense towhich any of our thinking about
numbers is tentative, because wedon't know people's hearts and
we don't know whether peoplewill persevere, and so on and so
(10:09):
forth.
We don't know whether someoneis that first or second soil in
Jesus' parable.
So there's always atentativeness to numbers and we
need to remember that and weneed to say no.
What we're working towards isseeing as many people.
I keep going back to Colossians128 without referencing it are
presented mature in Christ.
Presented mature in Christ.
(10:29):
That's the number we care about, but sometimes we can say that
and we can then make it act likeall the other numbers don't
matter.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Because, in the end, the short-term numbers do matter
.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Because then I think there's another side to that
coin, which is, yes, but withour limited knowledge, with our
limited understanding,recognising our finiteness and
that we're not the sovereignLord.
One of the best indicators ofwhether people are going to be
presented mature in Christ iswell, are they joining a good
(11:02):
church now, Hearing the word ofGod?
Are they hearing the word ofGod?
Are they regularly attendingthat church?
Community group.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Bible study Are they?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
a part of a, whatever you call your gospel teams, as
we call them, small groups.
All those questions are worthmeasuring, recognising the
tentativeness of them,recognising that, no, they're
not an answer.
They don't tell you the finalnumber.
Yes, you don't know that.
And the reality is on bothsides of that coin.
(11:32):
On one side, there will be somevery large churches.
We know this.
Who we will be surprised at howfew are presented maturing
Christ at the end, and therewill be other smaller churches
where there will be crowns ofglory for those who've laboured
there, because numbers now arenot the be-all and end-all, but
(11:53):
they're not irrelevant either,and unless you take them into
account and work thinking aboutthem, you can't evaluate.
Well, are we doing the best jobwe can do of seeing people come
under the saving sound of thegospel, of seeing people grow as
disciples of Jesus, and so onand so forth?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
So talk to me about your use of short-term numbers
now, yeah yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
This in many ways reflects something of a journey
like you referred to before Iused to quite adamantly say hey,
the number you should count,thinking evangelism, the number
you should count is how manypeople came to hear the gospel
and perhaps how many people wereinvited to hear the gospel.
(12:39):
And I still think they arewonderful numbers, because if
you've got a church of 100 and10 people come to the
evangelistic course you run,isn't that wonderful, because
that suggests maybe 50 have beeninvited.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's a great thing.
But I used to, almost as abadge of honour, say but it
doesn't matter how many peoplebecame Christians, because in
the end that's up to God.
But then I realised, no, no,it's worth asking that question,
not because we regeneratepeople, that's the work of God,
(13:14):
by his spirit, but it's worthasking that question to evaluate
.
Are we doing as good a job aspossible of actually helping
these people hear the gospel,have the opportunity to respond
in faith and repentance and besaved?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So if you have 30 people come to your evangelistic
course over the year, say, andnone become Christians, now that
might be… Even as you say thatI remember when I was writing an
evangelistic course introducingGod and looking at all the
other courses and talking topeople running all the other
courses.
One of people talk to me aboutdon't have the truth debate on
(13:53):
night one.
Don't have is it true on nightone, because actually if you
have it when you get to theresurrection week, you've
actually had four or five weeksof setting out the truth of the
gospel, the Spirit's had achance to work for four or five
weeks of setting out the truthof the gospel.
The spirits had a chance to workfor four or five weeks, and so
just how you structure thecourse?
And all these people said to mewe've had all these people come
(14:18):
and they asserted truth sostrongly on the first night and,
as convicted post-moderns, theydidn't come back, and so their
analysis of the numbers led meto evaluate not the content of
the gospel but the order of thepresentation.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think that's a great example If you have all
these people come, but none arebeing saved.
Now it might just be that underGod's sovereign hand, the
gospel is the stench of death toall those people and you have
faithfully presented Jesus andthat is not wonderful, but it's
the outcome God desired.
But it might be that you needto think.
(14:58):
Hang on, I'm not very clear inmy gospel presentation or we're
using the wrong course for thissetting.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Or we're using the wrong course for this setting,
or we're using the wrong coursefor the setting.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Or we're not taking into account that many people in
our area come from a differentethnic background.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Caring about the numbers will mean you
re-evaluate how you do thingsNow.
Sometimes you'll do it andyou'll say, no, I don't think we
can do anything different, andin God's sovereign hands this is
the outcome.
But it's worth asking, isn't it?
And that's where I've had thatslight journey of repentance.
If you like to say it's notgoing to change the fact that
(15:37):
we're going to preach Christ andhim crucified, that the content
is not going to be anydifferent, but it might be that
we decide.
Actually, as an example, Ithink many of us have been on
this journey over recent yearswhere we just realised one-off
evangelistic events are not thebest way to connect to people at
this time, and the fact that wewere seeing lots of people come
(15:59):
and very few converted made usrethink and, like you, with
introducing God think, is therea better way to actually have
people deep in the word over alonger period of time in the
context of Christian fellowship?
Is there a better way to dothat?
Oh, let's think about courses.
That's an example of learningfrom numbers.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So you now are counting people saved?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yes, we will.
I must admit I struggle still.
There's a part of me thatbecause I feel this tension, and
a good brother joked to merecently that for someone to
count as saved at Phil's churchthey've got to have been a
Christian for five years andgone to more college, sort of
(16:48):
idea, whereas other churchescount the number of people who
were hanging around the back ofchurch one week.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
No well, I think if they've come for eight weeks,
they've properly understood thecontent of the course.
And that's my point, that's mypoint.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I think my natural tendency is that, yeah, but over
recent times, as I look at Actssay, and I see Luke say, and
that day, 3,000 were added totheir number, got to believe
that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But he knew the parable of the soils.
He knew that some of thosepeople were going to be that
second soil when the ApostlePaul in Acts baptised the
Philippian jailer and his wholefamily.
He knew that some of them mightnot prove, but that didn't stop
him rejoicing in what hadhappened that day.
(17:40):
And in the same way we, I think, have grown at our church in
working out.
No, we want to delight inpeople coming to Christ, share
those stories and expect thatthat happens through the
faithful preaching of the gospel, not in some triumphalistic way
, but just in a way that says no, that's what we're longing to
(18:03):
see.
Yes, we long to see everyperson hear the gospel, but we
long to see people saved andthat's what we aim to see happen
.
But we don't want to manipulatethat and so forth.
We recognise that is underGod's sovereign hand, but in the
way God has set it up we play apart in that and so let's care
(18:26):
about it.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's really that take responsibility, but remember
God's grace is sufficient.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, it's interesting, isn't it?
And this comes back to thedanger of numbers.
Why are numbers dangerous?
It's because, and why is caringabout numbers dangerous?
It's because the human heart issinful, and especially of
pastors, and pride is our chiefsin, I think.
(18:52):
And so numbers when they go.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
well, why do you think that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
just as a digression I think, because we are put up
on a pedestal by the very natureof our role.
We are put in authority.
Very few people in the worldhave the opportunity to preach
to hundreds of people, to speakto hundreds of people week in,
week out, and they trust yourword and be trusted, and so
(19:18):
forth, and with that comes greatresponsibility.
But so that sin of pride meansnumbers are dangerous, because
we can start I think I jokedbefore we can believe our own
press, we can think I'm thereason this church is what it is
and so forth, not realising no,this is God's work.
(19:38):
But then on the other side,it's funny how pride works both
ways.
Pride can mean we're notinterested in numbers, but then,
on the other side, it's funnyhow pride works both ways.
Pride can mean we're notinterested in numbers.
See, sometimes one of thereasons we say no, no, no, it's
not right to count numbers isbecause we're too proud to be
able to be honest and say, oh,maybe some things aren't working
(19:59):
here, maybe I need to thinkabout my preaching and whether
it's clear enough or we'refocusing on the right things as
a church, or so forth.
So it's funny how pride workslike that.
And that's where, in the end,the thing that liberates a
person to really use numberswell is understanding the grace
(20:24):
of God, is knowing that mystanding before my Heavenly
Father does not change if StGeorge North shrinks by 20%.
My standing before my HeavenlyFather does not change if our
church stops being the youthgroup young people want to go to
in our area.
No, no, god loves me.
(20:45):
I am a justified sinner by hisgrace.
Irrespective of the success,however, you work that out of my
ministry.
If I truly believe that and ifI truly understand and grasp the
grace of God, that liberates meto care about numbers, because
(21:07):
I then say, well, actually I'mopen to seeing is there a better
way of doing things?
I'm open to see if my decisionsare contributing to why this
ministry doesn't seem to begrowing.
And, as I say, that's notsaying that's always the case,
but it's asking the questionsand that's where I think numbers
(21:27):
are helpful and why I've goneon that slight journey, if you
like, from perhaps ahyper-Calvinist I'm certainly
not an Arminian but somewherealong that trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, yeah somewhere along that trajectory, yeah yeah
, deal with me on that OldTestament verse where it's Satan
incites the counting.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, so I think.
And so I mean, I was at lunchwith somebody and I said I'm
having this discussion with youtoday and we just talked about
that.
Yeah, we've got to ask you thatquestion.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What I always find interesting is in 1 Corinthians
21,.
It's Satan.
I think it's in 1 Chronicles,sorry.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, 1 Chronicles 1 Chronicles 21.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I think it's Satan that inspires David to count.
And then in 2 Samuel, 22, or 24.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's the Lord.
It's the Lord that does it,which is a wonderful, full thing
of the sovereignty of God.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Sovereignty of God there, yeah, but when people say
oh, david counted numbers,therefore counting numbers is
bad, I think that's or.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Satan caused the number counting, therefore
counting numbers.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I think that's not great biblical theology.
What was the issue back in?
What was David counting?
He was counting his armies.
He was counting to work out oh,are we going to be able to win
these battles against theAmmonites and whoever else?
In a way, it was him expressinga lack of trust, a lack of
(23:03):
faith in the God who had alreadygiven him such great victories.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
It's right at the end of the story that he does it as
he's getting old.
If I remember rightly, so it'sin fact.
I think it's the final chapterin 2 Samuel, or close to it.
So what's the actual issuethere?
The issue is not trusting God.
Now how do I apply that to usas pastors?
and ministers in the NewTestament.
(23:29):
It's not don't count.
Because I don't think I'mcounting how many people are at
St George North every weekbecause I don't trust God.
I think where that would applyis if I think God's given us
these means of the word prayer,fellowship but they're not
(23:53):
working.
I'm going to take things intomy own hands and come up with
some new way to grow God'schurch.
I think that would be the sameproblem that David was
expressing in 1 Chronicles 21.
But if I am counting numbersbecause I care about the sheep
and I want to make sure no sheepare going missing, and if I'm
counting numbers so that I can,under God's sovereign hand,
(24:17):
knowing his grace, assess are wedoing the best?
We're doing the best we canwith what God's given us?
I don't think that's the sinthat Satan was inciting and the
trap that David was falling intoin those Old Testament settings
.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
So helpful yeah.
Thanks very much for coming inand talking to us my pleasure.
Thanks, Dominic, my guest onthe Pastor's Heart Phil Colgan,
the Senior Pastor of St GeorgeNorth Anglican Church.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, Phil Colgan, the
Senior Pastor of St GeorgeNorth Anglican Church.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
My name is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
A theology of statistics.
What place for numbers inministry evaluation?
It is the Pastor's Heart, withDominic Steele, and Phil Colgan,
is with us.
Today we're talking about theappropriateness of setting a
target, setting a goal, settinga number that we're working
towards in our church and then,at the end of the year,
evaluating what happened.
(00:29):
It is an uncomfortable butimportant question.
What place should numbers havein our thinking about ministry
success?
We all say we want to befaithful, but what happens when
the numbers are down?
Do we need to change somethingor do we just keep being
faithful?
Should we be counting at all?
(00:50):
It's the tension between, well,divine sovereignty and human
responsibility.
We want a calm trust in God'swork and yet a real urgency to
see people saved.
A calm urgency, a tensionbetween both preaching the word
and evaluating what's actuallyworking.
Phil Colgan has been long-termsenior pastor at St George North
(01:12):
Anglican in Sydney.
He presented on a theology ofnumbers at a recent Nexus
conference.
Phil, thanks for coming in.
Can we start with your pastor'sheart?
And you do feel this tension,don't you?
Between slow down and be calmI'm a Calvinist and the process
of counting and measuring.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, I think everyone in ministry feels that tension,
don't they?
I think it's inherent At onepoint.
It's a theological question,isn't it?
It's how do we hold togetherthose two truths of Scripture
the wonderful sovereignty of Godover all things, but on the
other side, our responsibilityas human beings and as ministers
(01:52):
?
That's a theological question,but it's also a question that
gets into our heart as pastors.
There's something wrong with usif we don't want our church to
be bigger in number.
Isn't there because we wantmore people?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
to come into the kingdom of God.
More glory to the Lord Jesus,that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But at the same time, there's nothing more dangerous
than numbers, because countingnumbers can lead to pride and we
can start to think that we arethe ones who are solely
responsible for the growth ofthat church.
We can start to sometimesbelieve our own press
responsible for the growth ofthat church.
We can start to sometimesbelieve our own press.
(02:29):
And isn't it sad when you seegreat ones fall because of pride
.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, let's just chase down those two arms of the
tension and give me the classicCalvinist answer.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes.
Well, the classic Calvinistanswer is that we hold the
tension, isn't it?
And it's the heart of lots ofis that we hold the tension,
isn't it?
And it's the heart of lots ofgood theology is holding the
tensions of scripture.
God is sovereign.
God decided before the creationof the world who would be his
children.
God will save, who he will saveand yet the scriptures tell us
(03:03):
we are responsible for ourdecision.
That's true in terms of ourpersonal salvation I have been
chosen by God, and yet I repentand believe and it's true of
every situation in ministry.
God is sovereign, and yet weare responsible for how we use
the good gifts God has given usfor his glory.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And that tension bites on both sides.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, I think, when we understand it correctly, it
bites on both sides, and I thinkthis is really important.
I think sometimes we fall intothe trap of taking a truth of
Scripture and then running withit without letting the other
side of the tension, or in factsometimes many different
competing tensions, bite on it.
(03:47):
So, you know, the classicexample is some of us would sort
of say numbers schmumbers.
Who cares about numbers?
As long as I'm faithful, godwill do what he will do, and so
forth, and that's a wonderfultruth in a sense.
Then the other side of thatcoin would be the person who's
(04:10):
an activist, who says look, oh,these numbers aren't good enough
.
We long to see more people in.
And it's interesting that thetwo would criticise one another,
and you see this sometimes inour circles.
So on the one hand, theactivist says to that person who
rests in the sovereignty of Godhaven't you read the book of
Acts, don't you?
(04:31):
see that God cares about numbers, luke tells us how many are
saved, et cetera, et cetera.
The other person says oh, don'tyou understand what Paul tells
the Corinthians, that it's Godwho brings the growth, and so on
and so forth.
But I think actually, when weget it right, we let both sides
of the tension bite.
(04:52):
And there's never in thescriptures is the sovereignty of
God used as a reason not tofeel an urgency to proclaim
Christ, to care for God's people, to pastor, to disciple.
Never is it used as a reason torest on your laurels.
And in the same way, thaturgency of the gospel never in
(05:17):
the Scriptures undercuts thatconfidence that God is working
his purposes out.
And you see that at points.
You see it in Acts 13, wherePaul and Barnabas are there
preaching in the face of awfulopposition, and at that point
they don't say oh well, clearlyGod has no one in this town.
(05:39):
The door's closed the door'sclosed, we better pack up.
No, they persevere, they pushinto it, they face opposition.
It's struggle.
It's closed, the door's closed,we better pack up.
No, they persevere, they pushinto it, they face opposition.
It's struggle, it's hard andthen, in the end, those God has
chosen believed.
It's both and it's holding thetension.
But it's not just saying I holdboth sides.
It's then letting it bite andpush into you and make you feel
(06:01):
uncomfortable from both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I think push into you and make you feel uncomfortable
from both sides.
I think what's your personaljourney been on this?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no I naturally… Are you a
numbers person?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I am, I am.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm a sceptic of numbers.
I think we might talk aboutthat in a little while the
dangers of numbers.
I'm a sceptic of people takingcredit for the work of God.
So my natural tendency is I geton with being faithful and God
(06:38):
will work through that how hewill work.
But over time I've slightlyrepented.
I've slightly repented of thatcynicism towards caring about
numbers and so forth.
Partially.
I think it comes down to a lothangs on that word faithful.
And so sometimes we say, oh,just be faithful, that's all God
(07:00):
calls us to do, right?
And I would say, yeah, butfaithful includes working as
hard as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That's part of faithfulness.
The outcomes are as hard asthat.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Being faithful involves not being lazy.
It involves using this brainthat God has given me and the
gifts of all the people in mychurch to see as many people as
possible hear the gospel andworking towards that wonderful
goal, under God, of seeing lotsof people presented mature in
Christ on the last day.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Well, I'll come back and ask you in a couple of
minutes about well then, howhave you changed your practice,
as you've changed your thinkingthere?
But what about urgency?
Well, the end not justifyingthe means.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that's where you'regetting into the danger of
numbers.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So when we say, oh well, all that matters is how
many people are in our church,Are coming to our church, coming
to our denomination, and we dowant to see more people come and
that's the danger of.
Oh, we want to see 10% morepeople in Sydney Anglican
churches or we want to see StGeorge North grow by X
percentage, x percentage inconversion, growth or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Sometimes what that can lead to is forgetting the
danger of numbers.
In the end, the number thatmatters is not how many people
are at St George North AnglicanChurch.
The number that matters is howmany people are presented,
mature in Christ on the last day, and you'll actually do
different things if you focus onthe wrong numbers.
(08:35):
So I often say if I was just onabout the size of St George
North, I would do no evangelism.
We would do no evangelismbecause evangelism is a really
ineffective way of growing yourchurch.
Best way to grow your church ishave the best youth group and
the best children's ministry.
Suck the life out of all theother churches in your area and
(08:56):
before you know it, you're theonly viable church.
And I'm being a bit silly, butyou get my point is if you want
to grow a church focus ontransfer growth.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I mean it is interesting.
Our friend Pete Stedman, up atNorwest Church told me the story
of they were growing like crazybecause they were on the cusp
of the new housing developmentspaces there and yet he said we
had a consultation, we hadn'tbeen doing any evangelism,
Nobody had been.
I mean I'll be getting thedetails wrong, but people hadn't
(09:25):
been coming to Christ and itwas a rocket for them and they
changed their practice, theychanged their strategy and the
last 12 months they've baptised45 adults.
Yeah, wonderful, and it's beenan incredible transformation as
a result, and yet he wascoasting along.
Well, he's working hard, but hewasn't asking that hard
question about evangelism.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think this is the thing, isn't it is.
That's the danger of looking atthe wrong numbers and in the
end, there is always a sense towhich any of our thinking about
numbers is tentative, because wedon't know people's hearts and
we don't know whether peoplewill persevere, and so on and so
(10:09):
forth.
We don't know whether someoneis that first or second soil in
Jesus' parable.
So there's always atentativeness to numbers and we
need to remember that and weneed to say no.
What we're working towards isseeing as many people.
I keep going back to Colossians128 without referencing it are
presented mature in Christ.
Presented mature in Christ.
(10:29):
That's the number we care about, but sometimes we can say that
and we can then make it act likeall the other numbers don't
matter.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Because, in the end, the short-term numbers do matter
.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Because then I think there's another side to that
coin, which is, yes, but withour limited knowledge, with our
limited understanding,recognising our finiteness and
that we're not the sovereignLord.
One of the best indicators ofwhether people are going to be
presented mature in Christ iswell, are they joining a good
(11:02):
church now, Hearing the word ofGod?
Are they hearing the word ofGod?
Are they regularly attendingthat church?
Community group.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Bible study Are they?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
a part of a, whatever you call your gospel teams, as
we call them, small groups.
All those questions are worthmeasuring, recognising the
tentativeness of them,recognising that, no, they're
not an answer.
They don't tell you the finalnumber.
Yes, you don't know that.
And the reality is on bothsides of that coin.
(11:32):
On one side, there will be somevery large churches.
We know this.
Who we will be surprised at howfew are presented maturing
Christ at the end, and therewill be other smaller churches
where there will be crowns ofglory for those who've laboured
there, because numbers now arenot the be-all and end-all, but
(11:53):
they're not irrelevant either,and unless you take them into
account and work thinking aboutthem, you can't evaluate.
Well, are we doing the best jobwe can do of seeing people come
under the saving sound of thegospel, of seeing people grow as
disciples of Jesus, and so onand so forth?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
So talk to me about your use of short-term numbers
now, yeah yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
This in many ways reflects something of a journey
like you referred to before Iused to quite adamantly say hey,
the number you should count,thinking evangelism, the number
you should count is how manypeople came to hear the gospel
and perhaps how many people wereinvited to hear the gospel.
(12:39):
And I still think they arewonderful numbers, because if
you've got a church of 100 and10 people come to the
evangelistic course you run,isn't that wonderful, because
that suggests maybe 50 have beeninvited.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's a great thing.
But I used to, almost as abadge of honour, say but it
doesn't matter how many peoplebecame Christians, because in
the end that's up to God.
But then I realised, no, no,it's worth asking that question,
not because we regeneratepeople, that's the work of God,
(13:14):
by his spirit, but it's worthasking that question to evaluate
.
Are we doing as good a job aspossible of actually helping
these people hear the gospel,have the opportunity to respond
in faith and repentance and besaved?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So if you have 30 people come to your evangelistic
course over the year, say, andnone become Christians, now that
might be… Even as you say thatI remember when I was writing an
evangelistic course introducingGod and looking at all the
other courses and talking topeople running all the other
courses.
One of people talk to me aboutdon't have the truth debate on
(13:53):
night one.
Don't have is it true on nightone, because actually if you
have it when you get to theresurrection week, you've
actually had four or five weeksof setting out the truth of the
gospel, the Spirit's had achance to work for four or five
weeks of setting out the truthof the gospel.
The spirits had a chance to workfor four or five weeks, and so
just how you structure thecourse?
And all these people said to mewe've had all these people come
(14:18):
and they asserted truth sostrongly on the first night and,
as convicted post-moderns, theydidn't come back, and so their
analysis of the numbers led meto evaluate not the content of
the gospel but the order of thepresentation.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I think that's a great example If you have all
these people come, but none arebeing saved.
Now it might just be that underGod's sovereign hand, the
gospel is the stench of death toall those people and you have
faithfully presented Jesus andthat is not wonderful, but it's
the outcome God desired.
But it might be that you needto think.
(14:58):
Hang on, I'm not very clear inmy gospel presentation or we're
using the wrong course for thissetting.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Or we're using the wrong course for this setting,
or we're using the wrong coursefor the setting.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Or we're not taking into account that many people in
our area come from a differentethnic background.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Caring about the numbers will mean you
re-evaluate how you do thingsNow.
Sometimes you'll do it andyou'll say, no, I don't think we
can do anything different, andin God's sovereign hands this is
the outcome.
But it's worth asking, isn't it?
And that's where I've had thatslight journey of repentance.
If you like to say it's notgoing to change the fact that
(15:37):
we're going to preach Christ andhim crucified, that the content
is not going to be anydifferent, but it might be that
we decide.
Actually, as an example, Ithink many of us have been on
this journey over recent yearswhere we just realised one-off
evangelistic events are not thebest way to connect to people at
this time, and the fact that wewere seeing lots of people come
(15:59):
and very few converted made usrethink and, like you, with
introducing God think, is therea better way to actually have
people deep in the word over alonger period of time in the
context of Christian fellowship?
Is there a better way to dothat?
Oh, let's think about courses.
That's an example of learningfrom numbers.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So you now are counting people saved?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yes, we will.
I must admit I struggle still.
There's a part of me thatbecause I feel this tension, and
a good brother joked to merecently that for someone to
count as saved at Phil's churchthey've got to have been a
Christian for five years andgone to more college, sort of
(16:48):
idea, whereas other churchescount the number of people who
were hanging around the back ofchurch one week.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
No well, I think if they've come for eight weeks,
they've properly understood thecontent of the course.
And that's my point, that's mypoint.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I think my natural tendency is that, yeah, but over
recent times, as I look at Actssay, and I see Luke say, and
that day, 3,000 were added totheir number, got to believe
that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But he knew the parable of the soils.
He knew that some of thosepeople were going to be that
second soil when the ApostlePaul in Acts baptised the
Philippian jailer and his wholefamily.
He knew that some of them mightnot prove, but that didn't stop
him rejoicing in what hadhappened that day.
(17:40):
And in the same way we, I think, have grown at our church in
working out.
No, we want to delight inpeople coming to Christ, share
those stories and expect thatthat happens through the
faithful preaching of the gospel, not in some triumphalistic way
, but just in a way that says no, that's what we're longing to
(18:03):
see.
Yes, we long to see everyperson hear the gospel, but we
long to see people saved andthat's what we aim to see happen
.
But we don't want to manipulatethat and so forth.
We recognise that is underGod's sovereign hand, but in the
way God has set it up we play apart in that and so let's care
(18:26):
about it.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's really that take responsibility, but remember
God's grace is sufficient.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, it's interesting, isn't it?
And this comes back to thedanger of numbers.
Why are numbers dangerous?
It's because, and why is caringabout numbers dangerous?
It's because the human heart issinful, and especially of
pastors, and pride is our chiefsin, I think.
(18:52):
And so numbers when they go.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
well, why do you think that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
just as a digression I think, because we are put up
on a pedestal by the very natureof our role.
We are put in authority.
Very few people in the worldhave the opportunity to preach
to hundreds of people, to speakto hundreds of people week in,
week out, and they trust yourword and be trusted, and so
(19:18):
forth, and with that comes greatresponsibility.
But so that sin of pride meansnumbers are dangerous, because
we can start I think I jokedbefore we can believe our own
press, we can think I'm thereason this church is what it is
and so forth, not realising no,this is God's work.
(19:38):
But then on the other side,it's funny how pride works both
ways.
Pride can mean we're notinterested in numbers, but then,
on the other side, it's funnyhow pride works both ways.
Pride can mean we're notinterested in numbers.
See, sometimes one of thereasons we say no, no, no, it's
not right to count numbers isbecause we're too proud to be
able to be honest and say, oh,maybe some things aren't working
(19:59):
here, maybe I need to thinkabout my preaching and whether
it's clear enough or we'refocusing on the right things as
a church, or so forth.
So it's funny how pride workslike that.
And that's where, in the end,the thing that liberates a
person to really use numberswell is understanding the grace
(20:24):
of God, is knowing that mystanding before my Heavenly
Father does not change if StGeorge North shrinks by 20%.
My standing before my HeavenlyFather does not change if our
church stops being the youthgroup young people want to go to
in our area.
No, no, god loves me.
(20:45):
I am a justified sinner by hisgrace.
Irrespective of the success,however, you work that out of my
ministry.
If I truly believe that and ifI truly understand and grasp the
grace of God, that liberates meto care about numbers, because
(21:07):
I then say, well, actually I'mopen to seeing is there a better
way of doing things?
I'm open to see if my decisionsare contributing to why this
ministry doesn't seem to begrowing.
And, as I say, that's notsaying that's always the case,
but it's asking the questionsand that's where I think numbers
(21:27):
are helpful and why I've goneon that slight journey, if you
like, from perhaps ahyper-Calvinist I'm certainly
not an Arminian but somewherealong that trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, yeah somewhere along that trajectory, yeah yeah
, deal with me on that OldTestament verse where it's Satan
incites the counting.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, so I think.
And so I mean, I was at lunchwith somebody and I said I'm
having this discussion with youtoday and we just talked about
that.
Yeah, we've got to ask you thatquestion.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What I always find interesting is in 1 Corinthians
21,.
It's Satan.
I think it's in 1 Chronicles,sorry.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, 1 Chronicles 1 Chronicles 21.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I think it's Satan that inspires David to count.
And then in 2 Samuel, 22, or 24.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's the Lord.
It's the Lord that does it,which is a wonderful, full thing
of the sovereignty of God.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Sovereignty of God there, yeah, but when people say
oh, david counted numbers,therefore counting numbers is
bad, I think that's or.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Satan caused the number counting, therefore
counting numbers.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I think that's not great biblical theology.
What was the issue back in?
What was David counting?
He was counting his armies.
He was counting to work out oh,are we going to be able to win
these battles against theAmmonites and whoever else?
In a way, it was him expressinga lack of trust, a lack of
(23:03):
faith in the God who had alreadygiven him such great victories.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
It's right at the end of the story that he does it as
he's getting old.
If I remember rightly, so it'sin fact.
I think it's the final chapterin 2 Samuel, or close to it.
So what's the actual issuethere?
The issue is not trusting God.
Now how do I apply that to usas pastors?
and ministers in the NewTestament.
(23:29):
It's not don't count.
Because I don't think I'mcounting how many people are at
St George North every weekbecause I don't trust God.
I think where that would applyis if I think God's given us
these means of the word prayer,fellowship but they're not
(23:53):
working.
I'm going to take things intomy own hands and come up with
some new way to grow God'schurch.
I think that would be the sameproblem that David was
expressing in 1 Chronicles 21.
But if I am counting numbersbecause I care about the sheep
and I want to make sure no sheepare going missing, and if I'm
counting numbers so that I can,under God's sovereign hand,
(24:17):
knowing his grace, assess are wedoing the best?
We're doing the best we canwith what God's given us?
I don't think that's the sinthat Satan was inciting and the
trap that David was falling intoin those Old Testament settings
.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
So helpful yeah.
Thanks very much for coming inand talking to us my pleasure.
Thanks, Dominic, my guest onthe Pastor's Heart Phil Colgan,
the Senior Pastor of St GeorgeNorth Anglican Church.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, Phil Colgan, the
Senior Pastor of St GeorgeNorth Anglican Church.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
My name is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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