May 27, 2025 • 33 mins
What happens when churches move beyond "pious passivity" to strategic intentionality in reaching the lost?
Richard Coekin—founding pastor of Dundonald Church in London and pioneer of REACH UK—joins Dominic Steele to unpack the revolutionary approach transforming churches across Australia and the United Kingdom.
Following on from Reach UK and Reach Australia in May, Richard candidly shares his journey from skepticism about "Pentagon language" and structured frameworks to embracing these tools as valuable expressions of pastoral care and evangelistic intentionality.
"If you don't aim at anything, nothing will happen," he explains, challenging the notion that strategic thinking somehow diminishes reliance on God's sovereignty.
We look at the biblical foundations for strategic ministry, with Richard pointing to Acts 6 as a model where the apostles prioritized preaching and prayer, built ministry teams for delegation, and ensured the church's practical needs were met.
Plus we discuss measuring spiritual fruit.
Whether you're skeptical of strategic approaches to ministry or already embracing them, this conversation offers fresh insights on leading churches that are both faithful to Scripture and effective in mission.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart, dominic steel and today,
the reach revolution.
A look under the bonnet at whatis happening here in australia
to more effectively reach peoplefor christ and what's happening
in a parallel movement in theuk.
Richard cookin is with us, 29years, the senior and founding
pastor of Dundonald Church inLondon, founding leader of the
(00:29):
Commission Church Network thereand the founder of the London
Men's and Women's Convention.
But he has just stepped backfrom all of that and started
Reach UK.
He's been here in Australiawith a team from Britain
attending the REACH Australiaconference, but just the very
week before that he was runningthe REACH UK conference in
(00:50):
London.
Richard, thanks for coming andtalking to us on the Pastor's
Heart and just before you headoff to the airport, I just want
to talk about your pastor'sheart, as you've come to the end
of the REACH Australiaconference and you and I had a
moment at the last night of theconference.
We were sitting and chatting inthe foyer there and you opened
(01:11):
up and were quite reflective andvulnerable about the impact of
the conference here and thethinking on you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, I was just thinking as a pastor.
You get towards the end and youreflect on your ministry and
then you go to something likethe Reach Australia conference.
You realise there's so much Ihadn't realized about ministry,
so much that I failed to do.
So much I didn't do and it youknow I could.
Things could have been better,I could have done things a lot
better.
Um, I mean, you know you doyour best at the time, but you
(01:40):
also need to recognise whenyounger people are bringing
things out that are reallyhelpful and to encourage young
people to learn from them,recognise their wisdom and don't
make the same mistakes thatI've made.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I mean tell me more.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah Well, I think I've been to the Reach Australia
conference two or three times,and I think the first couple of
times I came I was reallystruggling to show allegiance to
a pentagram you know, whateverit was, We'll put that up on the
screen.
Well it's sort of the mechanics.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
There's lots of language that describes Actually
you and I just going back toour Wednesday night conversation
.
We were having a little kind ofold man's rant and I was
ranting against… Speak foryourself, Anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
go, yeah, go, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I was ranting against acronyms and talking
about how we are so exclusive asa movement, with all this
language of a CMS and an FIECand all those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, what's that for An MTS?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And you said there's a whole lot of language in the
reach movement that is almostimpenetrable.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yes, well, I think the trouble is when people have
become experts in things, theystart using shorthand language
and you know you can be cynical,but actually if you're cynical
about that, you fail torecognise they're actually quite
deep thinking.
You know they've been workingat this for a lot of years and
so there clearly is a movementand it was at 1300 pastors or
(03:13):
something, leaders, churchleaders there, and actually, um,
cynicism is a really dangerousthing, you know, you fail to
recognize the value of somethingand you can get cynical as
you're older and think, oh, wenever did, never did this.
But actually I think I'verealized that a lot of that
language, like the Pentagonlanguage and the pathway
language, output thinkingthey're just descriptions of
(03:34):
actually pretty healthy, veryhealthy intentionality, in other
words, this Pentagon thing withfive sides to it.
I couldn't get what is thatabout, and I understand now.
It's just a tool for describingwhat a healthy church looks
like.
And actually, if you don't, ifyou, if you don't settle on any
any description and just talk invague principles, what you end
(03:54):
up with is is nothing to holdyourself accountable to, nothing
to aim at, and I think whatI've realized is that, um, the
rich people have realized it'sreally helpful to pastors far
and wide to have something youknow.
Whether it's a pentagon withsix sides, four sides, they
don't care about that.
The issue is have a vision of ahealthy church that is biblical
(04:16):
and aim at that and beintentional about it and be
prepared to measure how you'reperforming so that you can
improve and address weaknesses.
And I think actually that'sabout caring enough and I think
you know you can sort of doministry with a sort of pious
passivism that just says, well,I'll do my preaching and leave
it up to God.
Actually I need to care aboutpeople becoming Christians.
(04:38):
I need to care enough aboutequipping my church for holy
evangelism to actually lookseriously at how we're doing.
And I think the sort of thePentagon language and ecosystem
language they're just terms forassessing the spiritual health
of your church and I think it'snot helpful to be cynical of
(04:59):
that.
I think in the UK we can becynical of anything that's
strategic, but actually you'rejust loving your church enough
to care to plan, to pray, tothink about whether I could do
things better, sorry.
Well, I think the rich peopleare there encouraging you to
recognize leaders need to takeresponsibility, to recognize we
(05:23):
are the people who have theopportunity to make changes, to
lead change and to bring ourleadership teams and elders with
us and to say let's see if wecan do better to reach the lost
preaching sermons.
But actually the numbers ofpeople becoming Christians are
very modest indeed.
You know, often single figures.
(05:47):
Sometimes in big churches withglowing reputations, you know
there's lots of transfer growth.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I mean.
One of the lines that they'vebeen challenging us on is that
you should be seeing whateveryour average attendance is
something like 5% of that numberconverts in a year.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
See in the UK people will immediately react to that
and say you can't put a numberon the work of God.
How would you do that?
And I get that because there'struth in that that different
contexts are variously hard.
If you can't grow a church inWimbledon, where I am, you can't
grow a marijuana plant inKingston, jamaica.
A church in Wimbledon, where Iam, you know you can't grow a
marijuana plant in Kingston,jamaica.
(06:29):
You know it's kind of BibleBelt London and it's very
different in other parts ofLondon as it is here.
So there's not rules.
But if you don't have anythingto aim at, you know the numbers
and the figures.
You know Acts is full ofnumbers and of course you could
there's this, you know react tonumbers.
You know you're measuring andof course David is punished for
counting his troops for thewrong reason.
So of course you can usenumbers proudly and be a real
(06:51):
pain, but actually in Acts Lukekeeps recording the growth of
the church to the glory of God.
And actually to use numbers sothat you're operating with
reality rather than anecdotal.
You know pastors always like tobig up what's actually
happening and then you actuallylook at facts, reality, and
you're way short.
So I think, to sort of beintentional, to care enough to
(07:15):
be intentional, to care enoughto hold yourself accountable,
say that we're not doing well inthis area.
What could we do to improve, tobe humble enough to learn from
other people and say that wecould do this better?
So that's what we're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
One of the things we did and I'm sure we did it
because of Rich Australia, itwas 2017, we just opened up a
Google Doc and wrote down thenames of the people who'd been
saved in our church that year,and then we've added to that
Google Doc every year not everyyear, every month or every six
weeks, or whenever or not thenext person's been saved.
(07:50):
We've written their name downand so we can actually see on
that document how many peoplewere saved in 2017 to 18 and say
, oh, actually not as manypeople have been saved this year
as we hoped for.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think there are theological issues behind this
and I think, even justremembering that, when God took
flesh, what does holiness looklike in the flesh?
It looks like Jesus and he wasan evangelist.
You know, when he calls peopleto follow him, he says I'll
teach you to fish for people.
You know, teach you to reachthe lost.
You know, when he left us, hesaid make disciples full nations
(08:25):
.
You know, sometimes we thinkchurch is about being, you know,
pure, pure church.
Well, the reason God hasdelayed the end of the world,
extended our lives, put us inthe families we're in, in the
places we live and the jobs wehave, is to reach the lost.
You know churches, you know,look in 1 Timothy, what are they
for?
And people say you know,looking one timothy, what are
they for?
And people say you know, we'reum pillars of the truth.
They make that sound like it's,you know, in order to battle
(08:47):
with other churches, butactually the pillars of the
truth, because chapter two, godis the savior, wants all people
to come to the knowledge of thetruth.
You know, the purpose ofchurches is to reach the lost
and and it's urgent and we're ina hurry.
So I think we've got to startwith theology of jesus and the
church, that we've separatedholiness from evangelism, as if
holiness is something differentfrom evangelism, as if holiness
(09:10):
is just the absence ofwickedness.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, stones don't have sins.
Well, that was one of thethings that Andrew Hood really
thumped on us at the conference.
What you mean blessed us withfrom his word yes.
Which is the idea that if I ammature, I will be wanting to see
the lost saved.
I can't say that I'm mature andnot be mature in anguish and
(09:36):
striving to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, maturity looks like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You know, it's not burying my talents under the
ground.
It's investing everything Ihave in the work of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
You said a couple of nice things.
Where are we weak over here?
I mean, where have you thoughtI don't want to do what they're
doing?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It's interesting when you come as a visitor, because
you, it's, it's, as I mentioned,it is culturally difficult to
climb into a sort of tribethat's healthy, and you'll hear
the, the coded language, and Ithink they, I think they're more
and more self-aware of that.
You know we're not lining up tosalute and adore the pentagon.
I mean, you know we mock, uh, Imock that because I find it
(10:20):
difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I'm going to come back and ask you more about the
Pentagon in a minute.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I think the weakness is there are potential
weaknesses.
You know, I had thought guysdon't forget that it's the Holy
Spirit, through his word, thatgrows churches and that's
central to everything.
And you know, I saw a littlepodcast from Zoe Earnshaw, who I
think the world of actually Ithink Zoe's, I've known her for
many years and she's absolutelyterrific and she talked about
(10:43):
the danger of thebusinessification of the church.
And she's right.
There is a danger that you turnchurch into a business and that
you think that just if youorganize and strategize that
somehow people will be saved.
No, the purpose of theorganization in Acts 6 is so
that the apostles can dedicatethemselves to the word and
prayer.
Six is so that the apostles candedicate themselves to the word
and prayer.
So, you know, the purpose of isto better bring the word of god
(11:04):
to people.
And, um, I think the criticismthat I would have come here with
is have people forgotten thatit's the holy spirit, through
his word, that saves and growspeople?
But I was just thrilled at theconference, you know andrew
heard gave three bible readings.
I thought they were outstanding, and I'm not just bigging them
up, you know, I just thoughtthey were outstanding.
They were deep biblicalexpositions, drawing together
(11:27):
really important topics, youknow, insights into the Bible
teaching on hell and judgment,and then on the cross and then
living by faith, and I thoughtthat was a wonderful context in
which to care about strategizing.
So I think we need to rememberthat the purpose of the strategy
and I thought that was awonderful context in which to
care about strategizing so Ithink we need to remember that
the purpose of the strategy isnot just to get organized but to
(11:49):
enable people to hear the wordof God I think some of my
English friends here.
To be honest, having listenedto lots of Sydney sermons, I
think there's still work to doon preaching and there is a
danger that pastors will thinkif I just learn the right
strategies, you know I forgetabout their preaching.
And I've heard seniorevangelicals here worry that you
know, getting excited about thenew thing, a business strategy,
(12:11):
will mean that we'll neglectthe preaching of God's word.
We need both, I mean.
I think it's interesting.
In Act 6, which I spoke on atour own conference, three things
happened in Jerusalem, not justone.
One is that the apostlesdevoted themselves to the word
of God and prayer, and we needto do both.
There's not always a lot ofprayer here.
I mean, I don't know, maybeeveryone's praying at times, but
(12:31):
prayer seems to be pretty shortand perfunctory and nothing
will happen without God.
So we need to keep prayerfulpreparation of the word.
Nothing will happen without God.
So we need to keep prayerfulpreparation of the word,
particularly work application.
I'm sure we're going to talkmore about that.
So that's the first thingquality Bible teaching, and I
don't think you know, I'm notsure we've arrived at that here
at this end of the world.
There are problems with ourpreaching as well, lack of
(12:53):
application in particular.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The second thing was they built ministry teams, just
to touch on the word issue for amoment.
The second thing was they builtministry teams Just stay on the
word issue for a moment,because you said to me before
that there's something aboutgrasping, really, what the
author was saying to hisoriginal audience that you think
we're weak on.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Well in the UK, great work from the Proclamation
Trust over many years.
Well, in the UK, great workfrom the Proclamation Trust over
many years has helped pastorsto focus on the evident human
authorial intention in books.
And you know, because the Bibleis literature, you know, not to
bring your theologicalworldview to a text and make it
(13:38):
fit it into your own worldview,but actually look at the
literary, literary shape of theBible text you're looking at and
think what was the authorintending?
Of course, sometimes that'sexplicit.
You know one, peter five.
You know the end of John 21,.
He tells us why he's writtenthe book.
So we need to bear that in mindas we interpret it.
You can also tell from what'sevident in the text.
(13:58):
You, you can also tell fromwhat's evident in the text.
You know this particularcontext Paul's in prison.
He's writing to a church inColossae.
He's never met them personally.
Epaphras, the founding pastor,is with him in prison.
What's the worry?
The church is standing firm, weknow from chapter 2, but he's
worried because false teachersare in town and so he's writing
that they might stand firmbecause that's what Epaphras is
(14:19):
praying for them.
And you can tell that from thetext if you work hard at the
text and there is a danger, ifyou ignore that and rush too
quickly to systematizing withdoctrine and biblical theology,
that you come up with sort ofsummary statements that are true
to the Bible but miss thespecifics of the text, that
you're in.
Our danger at the UK, I think,is the other end of that, which
is that we think that if we'vejust established what the
(14:41):
melodic line of the text is andwe understand what the original
author was writing, that wedon't then come to conclusions,
either doctrinal conclusions andthen to application that you
can live by.
You can't actually live inverses of the Bible.
You have to live from theconclusions of the verses of the
Bible.
And I'm sure we'd love to talkmore about this, but I did say
(15:03):
three things happened injerusalem.
One is the bible.
The second was they builtministry teams and of course
some of them ended up preaching.
But they built ministry teams.
They realized they couldn't doall the things that happened.
It's vital to engage with thewhole of the body.
You, you know we're not justbodies full of mouths, we've got
arms and legs.
And I think one of the problemsif you copy city centre
(15:25):
training ministries, you end upthinking everybody can be a
preacher and you spend yourministry just trying to train
preachers.
But in most ordinarycongregations 95% of the
congregations are not going tobe preachers, and they're
sitting in front of you and theonly options you give them is
make coffee, look after childrenI'd rather die or sit on the
sound desk and actually they'reperfectly competent people with
(15:46):
lots of ministry potential.
We don't give them a reason toengage, commit, stay, invest in
our churches because we're notbuilding ministry teams.
And then the third thing thathappened and again this is a
reminder to Bible people thehungry were fed.
You know, the apostles didn'tsay sorry, guys, I will have to
ignore the hungry widows becausewe're bible teachers, um, or
(16:08):
we're too busy building teams.
They, they loved one another.
And again we need to hear thatwe need to build ministries in
which we love one another.
In the uk the last 10 years andwe haven't learned nothing else
We've learned that truthwithout love is very damaging
and we need to recover,investing in ministries that
(16:28):
love the church, because by this, people will know that we're
his people.
So three things happen inJerusalem.
But the purpose of the buildingof ministry teams is to let
those whose job is preaching andteaching concentrate on that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Anyway, no, I mean, what I've loved about what
you've just said is you'veactually anchored.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I've alienated everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Well, no you've anchored the building of
ministry teams in the strategyof the apostles.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And so I think you're saying what we might be doing
here is we need ministry teams,so we should go and work out how
to do them.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
There's always a danger of that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Whereas you're saying actually look, there's a
pattern of ministry in thescriptures, of building ministry
teams.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think any helpful ideology or ministry approach,
if you're not careful, itbecomes a thing in itself.
And to keep going back to thescriptures to say is this what
the scriptures teach?
Are we, are we going furtherfrom the scriptures?
So to the scripture people, Iwant to you know we're all
scripture.
But for those who are skepticalof the reach, um passion for
(17:33):
ministry, I want to say they arebiblical, they wanting to be
biblical.
But to my friends in reach Iwant to say don't forget to keep
checking, yeah, that yourministries are rooted in the
word of god.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What, what, I found just wanted to pick up on what
you've just said there a momentago, though, if I was to
contrast the ministry that I'vedone prior to coming into
contact with them the reachmovement and since coming into
contact with the REACH movement,I really think my vision for
the layman prior to engaging, Ireally didn't have much for them
(18:05):
to do apart from leading asmall group, yeah, whereas now I
can see there are all sorts oflevels of leadership using their
gifts that are potentially muchbetter fits for people, much
better fits for their gifts andmuch more useful for the overall
(18:29):
growing of the kingdom.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I think that's true.
The only thing I'd add to thatsorry to be contrary, but it's
not just to give everybody agood time being involved in
church.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's about reaching the lost, reaching the lost and
I think, in the end….
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But we are better at reaching the lost Well.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I think churches who are focusing on being
strategically effective are justreaching more non-Christians.
What's ruining the argument ispeople becoming Christians in
large numbers.
You know, all the churches thatare engaging with this are
reaching more people with thegospel.
All the churches that areengaging with this are reaching
more people with the gospel.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I mean, that was quite extraordinary, the graph
that they put up, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I mean you can't argue with people becoming
Christians.
I don't mean so much thenumbers.
People are becoming Christiansin large numbers in these
churches and I think that's thechallenge.
We've just called ourconference Churches Reaching the
Lost, because I think in thepast we've just tried to train
individuals to reach the lostand we've missed the fact that
churches collectively reach thelost.
We do it as an organic body.
(19:25):
It's there in the New Testament, isn't it?
Romans 12, what's the firstexample of a life of worship
transformed by the grace of Godin Romans 12?
The first example besober-minded and respect the
body.
You know the gifts of the body,but what are we trying to do?
Ephesians 4, equip them forministries that will grow the
(19:46):
church in godliness and innumber.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I saw you chatting with Richard Ledbeater, who's
your successor at Donald, andI'm imagining that as you walk
to the car together and thatkind of thing you were talking
about well, what do we dodifferently here?
And he's saying well, here'ssomething you used to do, coke,
and I'm going to go completelydifferent as a result of
listening to this seminar today.
Take us under the bonnet ofsome of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, so Richard Ledby, or Leddy as he's known
everywhere, it's wonderful,isn't it that in Leddy, so, both
in taking over at dundonald andalso taking over at commission,
in a guy called andy mason, um,both of them are wonderful,
gospel-hearted, bible teachingmen who are going to build on
the the things that you know.
(20:32):
I've managed to start and makethem better and um, so, uh, yeah
, we're it, and Lady is veryskilled in this.
I think he gets it better thanI do and you know he's an
evangelist at heart.
He wants to reach the lost andI'm thrilled about that.
I mean, how can you not be?
(20:52):
So, what are some of thetakeaways from this?
From here?
I think he there's been notraining in managing people in
leading teams for us as pastors.
You know, some of the mistakesthat I've made in my ministry
are about not leading teams verywell.
And certainly as churches growand you're building ministry
teams, you have to learn,whether you like it or not.
I mean, don't call it business,I mean it's all of God's common
(21:15):
grace.
Some of the wisdom that we canlearn from that book from Dave
Moore is phenomenal.
He's just read that.
He commended it to me.
I haven't read it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
So there you go.
We did a Master's Hut with Davesix months ago.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, I met him while I was at the conference,
yeah, and what a terrific, whatI love.
But all kinds of people havegot gifts to contribute, because
when you're wanting to use allthe body, then all kinds of
people in different roles havegot things both to do but also
(21:49):
to contribute wisdom.
I mean our conference in the UK.
One of the things we've triedto do is to say there's not just
a church, a conference forpastors, it's a conference for
pastors, it's a conference forpastors and their teams, and so
we're trying to provideconsultancy and clinics and
church assessments and aconference.
Sorry to get that in there, butwe are trying to do those things
, but not just for pastors butfor the members of the teams, so
(22:11):
that all the ministries ofchurch can be healthy and
effective Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Let me push you around on a couple of lines.
Be clear about what you'retrying to achieve as a church.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think you know people.
Again, if we're piously passive, we can say why do we need a
vision?
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
What's the pushback you'll get to that in the UK?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Anything that's strategic.
People say you know somethingungodly.
You know they'll say you know 1Corinthians 3, you know it's
God who gives the growth.
But it's very striking, isn'tit?
You know I planted and Apolloswatered and God gave the growth.
In other words, there arethings for us to do.
God gives the growth throughthe apostle planting and Apollos
watering.
(22:55):
It's not just God gave thegrowth and you didn't do
anything.
We have to engage and it's hardwork.
We could talk more about that.
But God uses means, he usespeople.
As we go about planting andwatering, god gives the growth.
So all of the vision is to tryand get clear.
(23:15):
What are we trying to do?
What are we trying to do inthis church?
Because Christian people aremagnificent.
They will do anything for agospel cause.
But if they don't know what thegospel cause is, what you can
get in a church is peoplefrustrated.
They don't know what we'redoing collectively.
You know, if you're justmanaging from the middle, a
pastor will be inundated withpeople with problems and you
(23:37):
know there's always more to do.
But people with energy to tryand reach the lost will come up
with different ideas.
Some will say we need to employa children's worker.
Some will say we need to planta church.
Some will say we need toimprove the front of the
building.
And they're all campaigning andyou get a divided church and
everyone's frustrated staff arefrustrated.
There's nothing they can getbehind.
And Craig Hamilton makes clearin his great book on leadership
(23:58):
to be fair, it's a big book.
I've only read the middle bit.
It's brilliant.
That middle bit is brilliant.
He said all the things I wishI'd said.
Anyway, he says as a leader,you know you've got to get.
It's your job to help thechurch understand.
What are we going to be doingcollectively to try and reach
the people in?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
our area.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And so for us at Dundon, every year we would have
a prayer.
We divide our AGM out from ourvision meeting.
So AGM, last prayer meeting ofthe year when you reflect on
what was done over the year,ministry reflections, and then
we have an evening of prayer andvision vision and prayer
evening.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And we dream.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Take responsibility for what do we need to do.
That's right.
So take responsibility foroutcomes.
That sounds like you don't careabout what God is doing.
No, everything's bathed inprayer.
But you're saying let's try andclarify.
What could we do to reach thelost, to care enough?
So let's try and builddoor-to-door teams.
Let's try and visit 1,000houses in the next year.
(24:53):
Let's try and be a more lovingchurch.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Even those ones.
I mean visit 1,000 houses.
That's an input towards the biggoal of seeing 10 people come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, and if you don't have a goal and you don't aim
at nothing, nothing will happen.
So you're conscious all thetime.
This all depends on god.
But it's just trying to plan.
If we're going to have ahundred people come to christ,
we're going to need to have athousand people in our evening
life course.
That means we're going to visit5 000 homes, because one in
(25:26):
five will come.
How are we going to get a teamto visit 5 000 homes?
Let's try and get a team andit's amazing Church people who
are full of the Spirit and love.
The Lord will back it, they'llcome out, they'll give to it.
It's often embarrassing howcommitted lay people will be to
their ministry teams if you givethem a ministry team to be part
of.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
The issue of ecosystem.
What do you think of that word?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Oh look, I'm not a very good follower.
You know I don't want.
You know, it's nimby notinvented.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
We should define what ecosystem is before you
critique it.
Yeah, I'm going to agree withit.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I think it's a healthy idea.
I hate all these kind of Idon't really like all the
business language.
It sounds like you're part of aprogram.
You know starting up for a cult, you know what's an ecosystem.
It's just a word for a healthychurch family and I don't know I
might try and reinvent it as insort of body language, um, but
(26:27):
the the benefit of it is, Ithink, if I understand the way
they're thinking, is um, insteadof just thinking in terms of
five stages to a process called5Ms or 5Es, why don't you just
think before you get to whatyou're going to do?
Why don't you clarify what ahealthy church looks like in
terms of reaching the lost?
Let's give it some descriptions.
You know, with five sort ofsides to it, you can have six or
(26:50):
four, but five Now justdigression.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
We'll come back to ecosystem in a sec.
But I mean you were telling meyou were sitting around five
years ago or something with agroup of church leaders in the
UK and you came up with 30things that a healthy church
should have.
But actually it is helpful to.
That's too many, you can't have30 goals.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
No, we came up with seven actually in the end, and
then we discovered that fivewithin the church were exactly
the same as the five Ms Right.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Which are things like what were your five?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, our five were evangelise.
Mission so serve, that ismembership.
No membership.
Then instruct, that is maturity, yeah.
And then train, which is thesame as ministry, and then
worship, which is the same asmagnification.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So exactly the same five in a different way, and
then you would think I don'tlike this idea.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yes, exactly, so we had our word because we also had
network the city that is,church planting and support the
cause that is world mission.
But it was seven.
It's a bit similar to have five, so ladies taking the church
back to five.
But all of that comes from whatis a healthy church and the
ecosystem is just observing thatsometimes you get problems in
one area that are actually theresult of a weakness somewhere
(28:00):
else, a bit like in the body,where you know I've got backache
but it's actually because I'vegot hamstring problems, yeah.
Or you know I've got a problemand I've got I have got a
problem on this knee, yeah, andthe reason is because I had an
operation on that knee and it.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
You've been doing more work on the other and it's
just thinking about how does thechurch family work together?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
that's healthy, isn't ?
It's thinking, you know?
Is there a lack of evangelismand I just need to bash the
congregation.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Do more evangelism or is it people feeling unloved?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
unloved they're feeling unloved and and they
feel useless and they couldn'tdo it and actually the reason
they're not having a goevangelistically is because I
haven't loved them.
I don't love this place becausethey don't love me.
That's right, that kind ofthing.
So I think that's healthy.
So I think it's not about thelabels.
But I think what I realise ismost pastors godly pastors are
(28:45):
not so cynical and say well, I'mnot coming because I don't
believe in ecosystems.
They're saying, actually I careenough for my people and I want
to reach my community.
I want to try and be useful tothe Lord in saving people, not
just running church.
So I'm going to suck it up andlisten to some healthy ways and
some of the things I heard thisyear just how to run church
(29:09):
which is both deep and warm.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We've actually got Toby and Olivia, who gave that
seminar coming in next week onthe Pastor's Heart, to talk
about that.
Well, you want to listen tothat.
It's great.
That was a fantasticpresentation.
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It was Just helping.
But again, what it's doing it'ssharing wisdom.
And last year at Reach, welaunched last year just saying
all we're trying to do is sharewisdom.
You can call it best practice,but it's not just best practice,
godly wisdom, it's biblicalprinciples and then working them
out in a British context, indifferent contexts.
So the conference in the UKwe've had rave people have
(29:41):
really loved it.
Partly it's not because we'retrying to tell everybody what to
do.
I think we're all a bit wearyof being bossed around, do this,
do that.
But it is hearing fromministries that are effective
how did you do that and whatworked?
And lots of things we trieddidn't.
So let's be willing and humbleenough to learn from people
where it's worked.
And I thought the REACHconference was really, really
(30:02):
godly and effective.
And for those I do want toremind you, there are those who
will be skeptical because it'sall about preaching.
And yes, we need to keeppreaching central.
But the reason the apostlesbuilt teams was so that
preaching could be central.
You know senior pastors burningout because they're running
around like headless chickenstrying to do everything because
(30:23):
they haven't built teams.
And so actually you'reprotecting senior pastors,
you're also delegating so thatsenior assistant pastors can
stay a bit longer rather thanmoving on every three years.
Actually give them realauthority to build teams, even
budgets, you know.
Actually give people freedom togrow ministries, feel
responsible for them and learnhow to lead a ministry and then
(30:45):
actually sometimes you don't getso much turnover of staff, less
frustration and the seniorpastors don't burn out and
actually preach better sermons.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So there's lots to say Thanks very much for coming
in Pleasure.
Richard Cokin has been my guestand he's got that string of
things that we could say aboutRichard, founding pastor of
Dundonald Church in the UK, buthe's now the leader of Reach UK.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on.
The Pastor is Hard.
We're looking forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
(31:15):
when we'll be talking to TobyNeill and Olivia Chapman about
deep and warm.
it is the pastor's heart, dominic steel and today,
the reach revolution.
A look under the bonnet at whatis happening here in australia
to more effectively reach peoplefor christ and what's happening
in a parallel movement in theuk.
Richard cookin is with us, 29years, the senior and founding
pastor of Dundonald Church inLondon, founding leader of the
(00:29):
Commission Church Network thereand the founder of the London
Men's and Women's Convention.
But he has just stepped backfrom all of that and started
Reach UK.
He's been here in Australiawith a team from Britain
attending the REACH Australiaconference, but just the very
week before that he was runningthe REACH UK conference in
(00:50):
London.
Richard, thanks for coming andtalking to us on the Pastor's
Heart and just before you headoff to the airport, I just want
to talk about your pastor'sheart, as you've come to the end
of the REACH Australiaconference and you and I had a
moment at the last night of theconference.
We were sitting and chatting inthe foyer there and you opened
(01:11):
up and were quite reflective andvulnerable about the impact of
the conference here and thethinking on you.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, I was just thinking as a pastor.
You get towards the end and youreflect on your ministry and
then you go to something likethe Reach Australia conference.
You realise there's so much Ihadn't realized about ministry,
so much that I failed to do.
So much I didn't do and it youknow I could.
Things could have been better,I could have done things a lot
better.
Um, I mean, you know you doyour best at the time, but you
(01:40):
also need to recognise whenyounger people are bringing
things out that are reallyhelpful and to encourage young
people to learn from them,recognise their wisdom and don't
make the same mistakes thatI've made.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I mean tell me more.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah Well, I think I've been to the Reach Australia
conference two or three times,and I think the first couple of
times I came I was reallystruggling to show allegiance to
a pentagram you know, whateverit was, We'll put that up on the
screen.
Well it's sort of the mechanics.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
There's lots of language that describes Actually
you and I just going back toour Wednesday night conversation
.
We were having a little kind ofold man's rant and I was
ranting against… Speak foryourself, Anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
go, yeah, go, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I was ranting against acronyms and talking
about how we are so exclusive asa movement, with all this
language of a CMS and an FIECand all those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, what's that for An MTS?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And you said there's a whole lot of language in the
reach movement that is almostimpenetrable.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yes, well, I think the trouble is when people have
become experts in things, theystart using shorthand language
and you know you can be cynical,but actually if you're cynical
about that, you fail torecognise they're actually quite
deep thinking.
You know they've been workingat this for a lot of years and
so there clearly is a movementand it was at 1300 pastors or
(03:13):
something, leaders, churchleaders there, and actually, um,
cynicism is a really dangerousthing, you know, you fail to
recognize the value of somethingand you can get cynical as
you're older and think, oh, wenever did, never did this.
But actually I think I'verealized that a lot of that
language, like the Pentagonlanguage and the pathway
language, output thinkingthey're just descriptions of
(03:34):
actually pretty healthy, veryhealthy intentionality, in other
words, this Pentagon thing withfive sides to it.
I couldn't get what is thatabout, and I understand now.
It's just a tool for describingwhat a healthy church looks
like.
And actually, if you don't, ifyou, if you don't settle on any
any description and just talk invague principles, what you end
(03:54):
up with is is nothing to holdyourself accountable to, nothing
to aim at, and I think whatI've realized is that, um, the
rich people have realized it'sreally helpful to pastors far
and wide to have something youknow.
Whether it's a pentagon withsix sides, four sides, they
don't care about that.
The issue is have a vision of ahealthy church that is biblical
(04:16):
and aim at that and beintentional about it and be
prepared to measure how you'reperforming so that you can
improve and address weaknesses.
And I think actually that'sabout caring enough and I think
you know you can sort of doministry with a sort of pious
passivism that just says, well,I'll do my preaching and leave
it up to God.
Actually I need to care aboutpeople becoming Christians.
(04:38):
I need to care enough aboutequipping my church for holy
evangelism to actually lookseriously at how we're doing.
And I think the sort of thePentagon language and ecosystem
language they're just terms forassessing the spiritual health
of your church and I think it'snot helpful to be cynical of
(04:59):
that.
I think in the UK we can becynical of anything that's
strategic, but actually you'rejust loving your church enough
to care to plan, to pray, tothink about whether I could do
things better, sorry.
Well, I think the rich peopleare there encouraging you to
recognize leaders need to takeresponsibility, to recognize we
(05:23):
are the people who have theopportunity to make changes, to
lead change and to bring ourleadership teams and elders with
us and to say let's see if wecan do better to reach the lost
preaching sermons.
But actually the numbers ofpeople becoming Christians are
very modest indeed.
You know, often single figures.
(05:47):
Sometimes in big churches withglowing reputations, you know
there's lots of transfer growth.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I mean.
One of the lines that they'vebeen challenging us on is that
you should be seeing whateveryour average attendance is
something like 5% of that numberconverts in a year.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
See in the UK people will immediately react to that
and say you can't put a numberon the work of God.
How would you do that?
And I get that because there'struth in that that different
contexts are variously hard.
If you can't grow a church inWimbledon, where I am, you can't
grow a marijuana plant inKingston, jamaica.
A church in Wimbledon, where Iam, you know you can't grow a
marijuana plant in Kingston,jamaica.
(06:29):
You know it's kind of BibleBelt London and it's very
different in other parts ofLondon as it is here.
So there's not rules.
But if you don't have anythingto aim at, you know the numbers
and the figures.
You know Acts is full ofnumbers and of course you could
there's this, you know react tonumbers.
You know you're measuring andof course David is punished for
counting his troops for thewrong reason.
So of course you can usenumbers proudly and be a real
(06:51):
pain, but actually in Acts Lukekeeps recording the growth of
the church to the glory of God.
And actually to use numbers sothat you're operating with
reality rather than anecdotal.
You know pastors always like tobig up what's actually
happening and then you actuallylook at facts, reality, and
you're way short.
So I think, to sort of beintentional, to care enough to
(07:15):
be intentional, to care enoughto hold yourself accountable,
say that we're not doing well inthis area.
What could we do to improve, tobe humble enough to learn from
other people and say that wecould do this better?
So that's what we're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
One of the things we did and I'm sure we did it
because of Rich Australia, itwas 2017, we just opened up a
Google Doc and wrote down thenames of the people who'd been
saved in our church that year,and then we've added to that
Google Doc every year not everyyear, every month or every six
weeks, or whenever or not thenext person's been saved.
(07:50):
We've written their name downand so we can actually see on
that document how many peoplewere saved in 2017 to 18 and say
, oh, actually not as manypeople have been saved this year
as we hoped for.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think there are theological issues behind this
and I think, even justremembering that, when God took
flesh, what does holiness looklike in the flesh?
It looks like Jesus and he wasan evangelist.
You know, when he calls peopleto follow him, he says I'll
teach you to fish for people.
You know, teach you to reachthe lost.
You know, when he left us, hesaid make disciples full nations
(08:25):
.
You know, sometimes we thinkchurch is about being, you know,
pure, pure church.
Well, the reason God hasdelayed the end of the world,
extended our lives, put us inthe families we're in, in the
places we live and the jobs wehave, is to reach the lost.
You know churches, you know,look in 1 Timothy, what are they
for?
And people say you know,looking one timothy, what are
they for?
And people say you know, we'reum pillars of the truth.
They make that sound like it's,you know, in order to battle
(08:47):
with other churches, butactually the pillars of the
truth, because chapter two, godis the savior, wants all people
to come to the knowledge of thetruth.
You know, the purpose ofchurches is to reach the lost
and and it's urgent and we're ina hurry.
So I think we've got to startwith theology of jesus and the
church, that we've separatedholiness from evangelism, as if
holiness is something differentfrom evangelism, as if holiness
(09:10):
is just the absence ofwickedness.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, stones don't have sins.
Well, that was one of thethings that Andrew Hood really
thumped on us at the conference.
What you mean blessed us withfrom his word yes.
Which is the idea that if I ammature, I will be wanting to see
the lost saved.
I can't say that I'm mature andnot be mature in anguish and
(09:36):
striving to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, maturity looks like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You know, it's not burying my talents under the
ground.
It's investing everything Ihave in the work of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
You said a couple of nice things.
Where are we weak over here?
I mean, where have you thoughtI don't want to do what they're
doing?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It's interesting when you come as a visitor, because
you, it's, it's, as I mentioned,it is culturally difficult to
climb into a sort of tribethat's healthy, and you'll hear
the, the coded language, and Ithink they, I think they're more
and more self-aware of that.
You know we're not lining up tosalute and adore the pentagon.
I mean, you know we mock, uh, Imock that because I find it
(10:20):
difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I'm going to come back and ask you more about the
Pentagon in a minute.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I think the weakness is there are potential
weaknesses.
You know, I had thought guysdon't forget that it's the Holy
Spirit, through his word, thatgrows churches and that's
central to everything.
And you know, I saw a littlepodcast from Zoe Earnshaw, who I
think the world of actually Ithink Zoe's, I've known her for
many years and she's absolutelyterrific and she talked about
(10:43):
the danger of thebusinessification of the church.
And she's right.
There is a danger that you turnchurch into a business and that
you think that just if youorganize and strategize that
somehow people will be saved.
No, the purpose of theorganization in Acts 6 is so
that the apostles can dedicatethemselves to the word and
prayer.
Six is so that the apostles candedicate themselves to the word
and prayer.
So, you know, the purpose of isto better bring the word of god
(11:04):
to people.
And, um, I think the criticismthat I would have come here with
is have people forgotten thatit's the holy spirit, through
his word, that saves and growspeople?
But I was just thrilled at theconference, you know andrew
heard gave three bible readings.
I thought they were outstanding, and I'm not just bigging them
up, you know, I just thoughtthey were outstanding.
They were deep biblicalexpositions, drawing together
(11:27):
really important topics, youknow, insights into the Bible
teaching on hell and judgment,and then on the cross and then
living by faith, and I thoughtthat was a wonderful context in
which to care about strategizing.
So I think we need to rememberthat the purpose of the strategy
and I thought that was awonderful context in which to
care about strategizing so Ithink we need to remember that
the purpose of the strategy isnot just to get organized but to
(11:49):
enable people to hear the wordof God I think some of my
English friends here.
To be honest, having listenedto lots of Sydney sermons, I
think there's still work to doon preaching and there is a
danger that pastors will thinkif I just learn the right
strategies, you know I forgetabout their preaching.
And I've heard seniorevangelicals here worry that you
know, getting excited about thenew thing, a business strategy,
(12:11):
will mean that we'll neglectthe preaching of God's word.
We need both, I mean.
I think it's interesting.
In Act 6, which I spoke on atour own conference, three things
happened in Jerusalem, not justone.
One is that the apostlesdevoted themselves to the word
of God and prayer, and we needto do both.
There's not always a lot ofprayer here.
I mean, I don't know, maybeeveryone's praying at times, but
(12:31):
prayer seems to be pretty shortand perfunctory and nothing
will happen without God.
So we need to keep prayerfulpreparation of the word.
Nothing will happen without God.
So we need to keep prayerfulpreparation of the word,
particularly work application.
I'm sure we're going to talkmore about that.
So that's the first thingquality Bible teaching, and I
don't think you know, I'm notsure we've arrived at that here
at this end of the world.
There are problems with ourpreaching as well, lack of
(12:53):
application in particular.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The second thing was they built ministry teams, just
to touch on the word issue for amoment.
The second thing was they builtministry teams Just stay on the
word issue for a moment,because you said to me before
that there's something aboutgrasping, really, what the
author was saying to hisoriginal audience that you think
we're weak on.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Well in the UK, great work from the Proclamation
Trust over many years.
Well, in the UK, great workfrom the Proclamation Trust over
many years has helped pastorsto focus on the evident human
authorial intention in books.
And you know, because the Bibleis literature, you know, not to
bring your theologicalworldview to a text and make it
(13:38):
fit it into your own worldview,but actually look at the
literary, literary shape of theBible text you're looking at and
think what was the authorintending?
Of course, sometimes that'sexplicit.
You know one, peter five.
You know the end of John 21,.
He tells us why he's writtenthe book.
So we need to bear that in mindas we interpret it.
You can also tell from what'sevident in the text.
(13:58):
You, you can also tell fromwhat's evident in the text.
You know this particularcontext Paul's in prison.
He's writing to a church inColossae.
He's never met them personally.
Epaphras, the founding pastor,is with him in prison.
What's the worry?
The church is standing firm, weknow from chapter 2, but he's
worried because false teachersare in town and so he's writing
that they might stand firmbecause that's what Epaphras is
(14:19):
praying for them.
And you can tell that from thetext if you work hard at the
text and there is a danger, ifyou ignore that and rush too
quickly to systematizing withdoctrine and biblical theology,
that you come up with sort ofsummary statements that are true
to the Bible but miss thespecifics of the text, that
you're in.
Our danger at the UK, I think,is the other end of that, which
is that we think that if we'vejust established what the
(14:41):
melodic line of the text is andwe understand what the original
author was writing, that wedon't then come to conclusions,
either doctrinal conclusions andthen to application that you
can live by.
You can't actually live inverses of the Bible.
You have to live from theconclusions of the verses of the
Bible.
And I'm sure we'd love to talkmore about this, but I did say
(15:03):
three things happened injerusalem.
One is the bible.
The second was they builtministry teams and of course
some of them ended up preaching.
But they built ministry teams.
They realized they couldn't doall the things that happened.
It's vital to engage with thewhole of the body.
You, you know we're not justbodies full of mouths, we've got
arms and legs.
And I think one of the problemsif you copy city centre
(15:25):
training ministries, you end upthinking everybody can be a
preacher and you spend yourministry just trying to train
preachers.
But in most ordinarycongregations 95% of the
congregations are not going tobe preachers, and they're
sitting in front of you and theonly options you give them is
make coffee, look after childrenI'd rather die or sit on the
sound desk and actually they'reperfectly competent people with
(15:46):
lots of ministry potential.
We don't give them a reason toengage, commit, stay, invest in
our churches because we're notbuilding ministry teams.
And then the third thing thathappened and again this is a
reminder to Bible people thehungry were fed.
You know, the apostles didn'tsay sorry, guys, I will have to
ignore the hungry widows becausewe're bible teachers, um, or
(16:08):
we're too busy building teams.
They, they loved one another.
And again we need to hear thatwe need to build ministries in
which we love one another.
In the uk the last 10 years andwe haven't learned nothing else
We've learned that truthwithout love is very damaging
and we need to recover,investing in ministries that
(16:28):
love the church, because by this, people will know that we're
his people.
So three things happen inJerusalem.
But the purpose of the buildingof ministry teams is to let
those whose job is preaching andteaching concentrate on that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Anyway, no, I mean, what I've loved about what
you've just said is you'veactually anchored.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I've alienated everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Well, no you've anchored the building of
ministry teams in the strategyof the apostles.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And so I think you're saying what we might be doing
here is we need ministry teams,so we should go and work out how
to do them.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
There's always a danger of that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Whereas you're saying actually look, there's a
pattern of ministry in thescriptures, of building ministry
teams.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think any helpful ideology or ministry approach,
if you're not careful, itbecomes a thing in itself.
And to keep going back to thescriptures to say is this what
the scriptures teach?
Are we, are we going furtherfrom the scriptures?
So to the scripture people, Iwant to you know we're all
scripture.
But for those who are skepticalof the reach, um passion for
(17:33):
ministry, I want to say they arebiblical, they wanting to be
biblical.
But to my friends in reach Iwant to say don't forget to keep
checking, yeah, that yourministries are rooted in the
word of god.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What, what, I found just wanted to pick up on what
you've just said there a momentago, though, if I was to
contrast the ministry that I'vedone prior to coming into
contact with them the reachmovement and since coming into
contact with the REACH movement,I really think my vision for
the layman prior to engaging, Ireally didn't have much for them
(18:05):
to do apart from leading asmall group, yeah, whereas now I
can see there are all sorts oflevels of leadership using their
gifts that are potentially muchbetter fits for people, much
better fits for their gifts andmuch more useful for the overall
(18:29):
growing of the kingdom.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I think that's true.
The only thing I'd add to thatsorry to be contrary, but it's
not just to give everybody agood time being involved in
church.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's about reaching the lost, reaching the lost and
I think, in the end….
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But we are better at reaching the lost Well.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I think churches who are focusing on being
strategically effective are justreaching more non-Christians.
What's ruining the argument ispeople becoming Christians in
large numbers.
You know, all the churches thatare engaging with this are
reaching more people with thegospel.
All the churches that areengaging with this are reaching
more people with the gospel.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I mean, that was quite extraordinary, the graph
that they put up, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I mean you can't argue with people becoming
Christians.
I don't mean so much thenumbers.
People are becoming Christiansin large numbers in these
churches and I think that's thechallenge.
We've just called ourconference Churches Reaching the
Lost, because I think in thepast we've just tried to train
individuals to reach the lostand we've missed the fact that
churches collectively reach thelost.
We do it as an organic body.
(19:25):
It's there in the New Testament, isn't it?
Romans 12, what's the firstexample of a life of worship
transformed by the grace of Godin Romans 12?
The first example besober-minded and respect the
body.
You know the gifts of the body,but what are we trying to do?
Ephesians 4, equip them forministries that will grow the
(19:46):
church in godliness and innumber.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I saw you chatting with Richard Ledbeater, who's
your successor at Donald, andI'm imagining that as you walk
to the car together and thatkind of thing you were talking
about well, what do we dodifferently here?
And he's saying well, here'ssomething you used to do, coke,
and I'm going to go completelydifferent as a result of
listening to this seminar today.
Take us under the bonnet ofsome of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, so Richard Ledby, or Leddy as he's known
everywhere, it's wonderful,isn't it that in Leddy, so, both
in taking over at dundonald andalso taking over at commission,
in a guy called andy mason, um,both of them are wonderful,
gospel-hearted, bible teachingmen who are going to build on
the the things that you know.
(20:32):
I've managed to start and makethem better and um, so, uh, yeah
, we're it, and Lady is veryskilled in this.
I think he gets it better thanI do and you know he's an
evangelist at heart.
He wants to reach the lost andI'm thrilled about that.
I mean, how can you not be?
(20:52):
So, what are some of thetakeaways from this?
From here?
I think he there's been notraining in managing people in
leading teams for us as pastors.
You know, some of the mistakesthat I've made in my ministry
are about not leading teams verywell.
And certainly as churches growand you're building ministry
teams, you have to learn,whether you like it or not.
I mean, don't call it business,I mean it's all of God's common
(21:15):
grace.
Some of the wisdom that we canlearn from that book from Dave
Moore is phenomenal.
He's just read that.
He commended it to me.
I haven't read it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
So there you go.
We did a Master's Hut with Davesix months ago.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, I met him while I was at the conference,
yeah, and what a terrific, whatI love.
But all kinds of people havegot gifts to contribute, because
when you're wanting to use allthe body, then all kinds of
people in different roles havegot things both to do but also
(21:49):
to contribute wisdom.
I mean our conference in the UK.
One of the things we've triedto do is to say there's not just
a church, a conference forpastors, it's a conference for
pastors, it's a conference forpastors and their teams, and so
we're trying to provideconsultancy and clinics and
church assessments and aconference.
Sorry to get that in there, butwe are trying to do those things
, but not just for pastors butfor the members of the teams, so
(22:11):
that all the ministries ofchurch can be healthy and
effective Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Let me push you around on a couple of lines.
Be clear about what you'retrying to achieve as a church.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I think you know people.
Again, if we're piously passive, we can say why do we need a
vision?
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
What's the pushback you'll get to that in the UK?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Anything that's strategic.
People say you know somethingungodly.
You know they'll say you know 1Corinthians 3, you know it's
God who gives the growth.
But it's very striking, isn'tit?
You know I planted and Apolloswatered and God gave the growth.
In other words, there arethings for us to do.
God gives the growth throughthe apostle planting and Apollos
watering.
(22:55):
It's not just God gave thegrowth and you didn't do
anything.
We have to engage and it's hardwork.
We could talk more about that.
But God uses means, he usespeople.
As we go about planting andwatering, god gives the growth.
So all of the vision is to tryand get clear.
(23:15):
What are we trying to do?
What are we trying to do inthis church?
Because Christian people aremagnificent.
They will do anything for agospel cause.
But if they don't know what thegospel cause is, what you can
get in a church is peoplefrustrated.
They don't know what we'redoing collectively.
You know, if you're justmanaging from the middle, a
pastor will be inundated withpeople with problems and you
(23:37):
know there's always more to do.
But people with energy to tryand reach the lost will come up
with different ideas.
Some will say we need to employa children's worker.
Some will say we need to planta church.
Some will say we need toimprove the front of the
building.
And they're all campaigning andyou get a divided church and
everyone's frustrated staff arefrustrated.
There's nothing they can getbehind.
And Craig Hamilton makes clearin his great book on leadership
(23:58):
to be fair, it's a big book.
I've only read the middle bit.
It's brilliant.
That middle bit is brilliant.
He said all the things I wishI'd said.
Anyway, he says as a leader,you know you've got to get.
It's your job to help thechurch understand.
What are we going to be doingcollectively to try and reach
the people in?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
our area.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And so for us at Dundon, every year we would have
a prayer.
We divide our AGM out from ourvision meeting.
So AGM, last prayer meeting ofthe year when you reflect on
what was done over the year,ministry reflections, and then
we have an evening of prayer andvision vision and prayer
evening.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And we dream.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Take responsibility for what do we need to do.
That's right.
So take responsibility foroutcomes.
That sounds like you don't careabout what God is doing.
No, everything's bathed inprayer.
But you're saying let's try andclarify.
What could we do to reach thelost, to care enough?
So let's try and builddoor-to-door teams.
Let's try and visit 1,000houses in the next year.
(24:53):
Let's try and be a more lovingchurch.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Even those ones.
I mean visit 1,000 houses.
That's an input towards the biggoal of seeing 10 people come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, and if you don't have a goal and you don't aim
at nothing, nothing will happen.
So you're conscious all thetime.
This all depends on god.
But it's just trying to plan.
If we're going to have ahundred people come to christ,
we're going to need to have athousand people in our evening
life course.
That means we're going to visit5 000 homes, because one in
(25:26):
five will come.
How are we going to get a teamto visit 5 000 homes?
Let's try and get a team andit's amazing Church people who
are full of the Spirit and love.
The Lord will back it, they'llcome out, they'll give to it.
It's often embarrassing howcommitted lay people will be to
their ministry teams if you givethem a ministry team to be part
of.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
The issue of ecosystem.
What do you think of that word?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Oh look, I'm not a very good follower.
You know I don't want.
You know, it's nimby notinvented.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
We should define what ecosystem is before you
critique it.
Yeah, I'm going to agree withit.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I think it's a healthy idea.
I hate all these kind of Idon't really like all the
business language.
It sounds like you're part of aprogram.
You know starting up for a cult, you know what's an ecosystem.
It's just a word for a healthychurch family and I don't know I
might try and reinvent it as insort of body language, um, but
(26:27):
the the benefit of it is, Ithink, if I understand the way
they're thinking, is um, insteadof just thinking in terms of
five stages to a process called5Ms or 5Es, why don't you just
think before you get to whatyou're going to do?
Why don't you clarify what ahealthy church looks like in
terms of reaching the lost?
Let's give it some descriptions.
You know, with five sort ofsides to it, you can have six or
(26:50):
four, but five Now justdigression.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
We'll come back to ecosystem in a sec.
But I mean you were telling meyou were sitting around five
years ago or something with agroup of church leaders in the
UK and you came up with 30things that a healthy church
should have.
But actually it is helpful to.
That's too many, you can't have30 goals.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
No, we came up with seven actually in the end, and
then we discovered that fivewithin the church were exactly
the same as the five Ms Right.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Which are things like what were your five?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, our five were evangelise.
Mission so serve, that ismembership.
No membership.
Then instruct, that is maturity, yeah.
And then train, which is thesame as ministry, and then
worship, which is the same asmagnification.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So exactly the same five in a different way, and
then you would think I don'tlike this idea.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yes, exactly, so we had our word because we also had
network the city that is,church planting and support the
cause that is world mission.
But it was seven.
It's a bit similar to have five, so ladies taking the church
back to five.
But all of that comes from whatis a healthy church and the
ecosystem is just observing thatsometimes you get problems in
one area that are actually theresult of a weakness somewhere
(28:00):
else, a bit like in the body,where you know I've got backache
but it's actually because I'vegot hamstring problems, yeah.
Or you know I've got a problemand I've got I have got a
problem on this knee, yeah, andthe reason is because I had an
operation on that knee and it.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
You've been doing more work on the other and it's
just thinking about how does thechurch family work together?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
that's healthy, isn't ?
It's thinking, you know?
Is there a lack of evangelismand I just need to bash the
congregation.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Do more evangelism or is it people feeling unloved?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
unloved they're feeling unloved and and they
feel useless and they couldn'tdo it and actually the reason
they're not having a goevangelistically is because I
haven't loved them.
I don't love this place becausethey don't love me.
That's right, that kind ofthing.
So I think that's healthy.
So I think it's not about thelabels.
But I think what I realise ismost pastors godly pastors are
(28:45):
not so cynical and say well, I'mnot coming because I don't
believe in ecosystems.
They're saying, actually I careenough for my people and I want
to reach my community.
I want to try and be useful tothe Lord in saving people, not
just running church.
So I'm going to suck it up andlisten to some healthy ways and
some of the things I heard thisyear just how to run church
(29:09):
which is both deep and warm.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We've actually got Toby and Olivia, who gave that
seminar coming in next week onthe Pastor's Heart, to talk
about that.
Well, you want to listen tothat.
It's great.
That was a fantasticpresentation.
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It was Just helping.
But again, what it's doing it'ssharing wisdom.
And last year at Reach, welaunched last year just saying
all we're trying to do is sharewisdom.
You can call it best practice,but it's not just best practice,
godly wisdom, it's biblicalprinciples and then working them
out in a British context, indifferent contexts.
So the conference in the UKwe've had rave people have
(29:41):
really loved it.
Partly it's not because we'retrying to tell everybody what to
do.
I think we're all a bit wearyof being bossed around, do this,
do that.
But it is hearing fromministries that are effective
how did you do that and whatworked?
And lots of things we trieddidn't.
So let's be willing and humbleenough to learn from people
where it's worked.
And I thought the REACHconference was really, really
(30:02):
godly and effective.
And for those I do want toremind you, there are those who
will be skeptical because it'sall about preaching.
And yes, we need to keeppreaching central.
But the reason the apostlesbuilt teams was so that
preaching could be central.
You know senior pastors burningout because they're running
around like headless chickenstrying to do everything because
(30:23):
they haven't built teams.
And so actually you'reprotecting senior pastors,
you're also delegating so thatsenior assistant pastors can
stay a bit longer rather thanmoving on every three years.
Actually give them realauthority to build teams, even
budgets, you know.
Actually give people freedom togrow ministries, feel
responsible for them and learnhow to lead a ministry and then
(30:45):
actually sometimes you don't getso much turnover of staff, less
frustration and the seniorpastors don't burn out and
actually preach better sermons.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So there's lots to say Thanks very much for coming
in Pleasure.
Richard Cokin has been my guestand he's got that string of
things that we could say aboutRichard, founding pastor of
Dundonald Church in the UK, buthe's now the leader of Reach UK.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on.
The Pastor is Hard.
We're looking forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
(31:15):
when we'll be talking to TobyNeill and Olivia Chapman about
deep and warm.
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