December 22, 2024 • 34 mins
Most of us evangelical pastors, theological colleges, indeed the whole of evangelicalism - we have a blind spot when it comes to Roman Catholicism in our theology, missiology and practice.
Where do we as Evangelicals make mistakes in our engagement with the Roman Catholic world?
What can we change? What should we change?
How do we best see our Roman Catholic friends come to a personal saving relationship with Jesus Christ?
Leonardo De Chirico has been at the forefront of theological education of evangelicals in this space internationally for over a decade.
Leonardo is a church planter, pastor in Rome, and Director of the Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano is the Dean of Academic Development at Mary Andrew's College, Sydney.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is the Pastor's Heart and Dominic Steele, and
this week we bring you a best ofedition of the Pastor's Heart
Reaching Roman Catholics withLeonardo DiCirico and Rachel
Ciano.
The thesis is that, while usingthe same words, evangelicals
and Roman Catholics meancompletely different things.
Most of us as evangelicalpastors, as theological colleges
(00:23):
, indeed really the whole ofevangelicalism we have a blind
spot when it comes to RomanCatholicism, in our theology,
missiology and in our practice.
Where do we, as evangelicals,make mistakes in our engagement
with the Roman Catholic world?
What can we change?
What should we change?
(00:43):
How do we best see our RomanCatholic friends come into a
personal, saving relationshipwith Jesus Christ?
Leonardo de Chirico has been atthe forefront of theological
education of evangelicals inthis space internationally for
over a decade.
He's a church planter, a pastorin Rome and director of the
(01:06):
Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano is the new Dean ofAcademic Development at Mary
Andrews College in Sydney.
Leonardo, thanks for coming in.
Rachel, thanks for coming in.
Rachel, thanks for coming in.
Let me start with you and yourpastor's heart for the Roman
(01:31):
Catholic.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm Italian and I've been ministering in Italy and in
Europe for the whole of my life, meeting thousands of neighbors
and colleagues and students,and most of them living
breathing Roman Catholicism intheir lives, and I've seen many
(01:58):
of them, if not the majority ofthem, lacking a grasp of basic
gospel truth, couched in areligiosity that oftentimes is
obscuring the gospel, if notdistorting it.
So it was out of you know,compassion and the desire to see
(02:20):
the gospel shining through inpeople's lives who have been so
much influenced by thetraditions, the teachings, the
practices of the Roman CatholicChurch.
And traveling abroad, I've seenthe same challenge globally.
(02:45):
It's not just anItalian-European thing.
If you go to Latin America, ifyou go to many different
countries, indeed throughout theworld, that's the same reality.
Roman Catholicism at bestobscures the Gospel, at worst it
distorts the gospel, at worstit distorts it.
And so there is a need to feelthe compassion, the desire for
(03:10):
the gospel to be clearlypresented in its biblical shape
and with a Christian heart.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
At best obscures, at worst distorts.
You said somewhere, I think arewe dealing with Galatians 1,
it's a false gospel, orPhilippians 1, it's a true
gospel, with wrong, faultymotives?
What's your take there?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, I think that, as far as the system, roman
Catholicism is a system, it'snot just a bunch of isolated
doctrines and practices, butit's a well-crafted theological,
doctrinal as well as devotionalsystem that shapes whole
(04:00):
cultures and adapts to differentcultures in order to take a
distinct Catholic form.
The system is the of acommitment to scripture alone,
(04:31):
christ alone, but it has beenbuilt over the centuries, over
multiple commitments and, in theend, leading to something of a
Galatian type of narrativegospel, plus that in terms up
with a different type of gospelIn terms of individual lives.
(05:16):
That is more, I think, the caseof a Philippians 1 scenario.
There are, of course course,individual Catholics who are
believers in Christ, but I wouldsay, you know, in spite of
their being consistent Catholicsand not because they are
consistent Catholics.
(05:36):
So they pick and choose, andthey're picking, choosing for,
by God's grace, some of them,they focus their lives on Christ
alone and they trust Christalone for their salvation and
life.
But this is not what the Churchteaches them to do.
They do it in spite of it, notbecause of it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I mean, I'm thinking of myself growing up as a Roman
Catholic and then understandinggrace, and so I'm agreeing.
I'm immediately agreeing withwhat you've just said.
But I see so many and I want tobring you in here, rachel so
many of pastor friends aroundthe place who have been
evangelical, grown up inevangelical church, wanting to
(06:20):
downplay the differences betweenRoman Catholicism and
evangelicalism.
Do you have that same take andsame frustration?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yes, absolutely so.
In my work at SMBC training uppeople for ministry in pastoral
work in Marrickville withfriends and family members,
there's a downplaying of thedifference and there's a number
of ways that that can happen.
Saying we agree on the NiceneCreed, so that's enough.
Saying we agree on two-thirdsof the Roman Catholic Catechism,
(06:52):
so that's enough.
Saying that Rome is moving in adifferent direction in the last
50, 60, 70 years after VaticanII, that's enough.
Looking at evangelicalCatholicism but not
understanding what the wordevangelical means in that
context, it's not the way thatwe're using the word at all.
So all these things are used, Ithink, out of a good heart.
(07:16):
We would love, we would lovethem catholics to be saved, and
sometimes, in downplaying thedifference, it's out of that
heart of surely they understandthe gospel.
But actually when you lookunder the surface, at the roots,
it's it's a very differentgospel.
It's a galatians one gospel,and so they need to hear the
(07:37):
message of faith alone in christ, alone so I mean just to pick
up on what Rachel just saidthere.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Leonardo, the same words, different meaning.
You've written extensively onthis.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, that is what really happens.
The vocabulary is the same,apart from a few specific Roman
Catholic terms introduced in theCatholic tradition, you know,
transubstantiation or theImmaculate Conception of Mary.
These are not biblical words orChristian words, these are
(08:14):
Catholic words.
But as far as you know, 90% ofthe vocabulary is concerned.
The words are the same Sin,grace, cross, jesus, gospel,
salvation, faith and hope.
And we could go on and on andon.
The problem is that they aremeant in a very different way
(08:35):
because they are not.
Their meaning is not taken fromthe Bible as the ultimate
authority, the ultimateauthority and the ultimate
interpreter of itself.
The meaning is the result of acomplex historical process where
(08:59):
the biblical meaning has beenblurred and with other meanings
and not being committed toScripture alone as the ultimate
authority.
The result is a combination ofthings that for each word, then
(09:22):
if you put, put them each wordin relationship to the other,
the whole meaning of theChristian faith is diverted,
quite different, quite different.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So it's not only just one word but it's all the words
and the result is, yes,something different, and you're
saying you want us to understandthis whole, and the whole
includes well, it's the doctrine, it's the institution, it's the
history, it's the culture.
It's a big project to get youaround that.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yes, yes, because that's the way in which
Catholicism has understooditself over the years, not as a,
you know, pick-and-choose typeof religious option, but as an
integrated whole.
And so it is for us.
It is not that we want to seeit as a whole, you know from
(10:15):
outside, but because Catholicismsees itself as a whole, so it's
fair to try to address it inits own terms and having then
theological, spiritual lenses toread it.
And so, doctrinally speaking,it's all part of an integrated
(10:37):
whole.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And yet, Rachel, most individual Roman Catholics are
pick-and-choose Catholics orcherry-picking Catholics.
It's not that they're adoptingthat whole, they're just kind of
how do we do that?
How do we engage with them?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
How do we engage with Catholic friends?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
The cherry-picking person.
Yeah yeah.
Well, the average person youmeet in Marrickville.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
The average person I meet in Marrickville.
So yeah, I do have lots ofCatholic friends and neighbours,
family members in the community.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And really your suburb.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
that's your suburb, yeah, yeah yeah, and so I try a
few things with them.
So, because one of thedifficult things in the Catholic
system is that it is notfounded on Scripture alone.
Scripture contains the Word ofGod, but it is not all of God's
(11:30):
words.
So I'm wanting to try and shiftand soften, very slowly, very
prayerfully, their confidence toGod's words.
I offer to read the Bible withmy Catholic friends, or we'll
talk about things?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Which part of the Bible?
Where do you go?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Depends what they want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So with some of my friends, mary and so, you're a
theological college lecturer,you're a genius in this place.
Of course you flex, but ifsomebody's watching and think I
don't know exactly what to do,what's your?
Oh, that's not the Bible.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So it's not a complex theological argument, but I
guess what I'm wanting to do isI'm wanting to one, bring their
eyes to the Word of God.
Two for many Roman Catholics,jesus feels very distant, feels
very far, which is why he mustbe accessed through Mary.
(12:25):
She has the ear of her son, soapproach her and she will bring
your requests.
So if I can present Jesus asthe one who is close by his
spirit in believers, then thatis very attractive.
So, for example, with friendswho are very devoted to Mary in
(12:47):
their practices, I will takethem and I'll tell them the
story of the wedding at Cana.
And as we talk through thatstory I'll say at the end look,
mary says, listen to my son, dowhatever he tells you.
So I say if I want to respectMary, which we do, then I need
(13:07):
to listen to her.
And she tells me to listen toher son.
Mary as well, in this system isprotected from original sin.
In the Immaculate Conception isbodily assumed as she nears
death.
So really she's verydisconnected to my everyday life
in that system.
(13:27):
She doesn't understand the fullintensity of temptation to sin.
She doesn't understand the fullagony of death.
Jesus understands bothcompletely.
So in my hour of need I needJesus.
He's so much more attractive.
So I think that's what I do.
I try and paint in thescriptures the attractiveness of
(13:48):
Jesus, and remembering thatit's a conversation.
It's not me slamming the Bible,it's a conversation.
And the other thing I do withmy Catholic friends and
relatives and neighbors is Ipray with them, because prayer
is often just contained to a setspace at a set time for them.
(14:10):
So if we're having aconversation, they're sharing
something that's difficult intheir life in their very kitchen
.
I say can I pray for you?
now about that and that is awonderfully moving experience
for them to see faith in action.
It's actually deeplytheological because right then
and there we're saying we haveaccess to the Father.
We don't need the hierarchy ofthe saints, but it's just that
(14:34):
simple task of praying with themin their kitchen shows that we
can have access to God throughChrist.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
What do you teach Leonardo as your go-to in terms
of taking people to theScriptures?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
the Catholic person as your go-to in terms of taking
people to the Scriptures.
The Catholic person?
Yeah, it varies according tocontext and situations, but I
have found that Matthew's Gospelis a Gospel that resonates with
an average Catholic reader,because there we find Jesus
(15:11):
dealing with the Jewish audienceor Jewish context, and very
much into this view whereby, inorder to be received by God, you
have to comply with the law ofMoses and do good works and so
(15:34):
on.
And so there Jesus speaks aboutthe Gospel in terms of Him
being the new Moses and himbeing the fulfillment of the law
, and us having to receive hiswork and to respond to it.
So, as far as one gospel isconcerned, matthew seems to be a
(15:58):
good place to start a not anoccasional conversation, but a
more intentional series ofconversations.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Leonardo, I've heard you say that we evangelicals
we've really dropped the ball inour engagement with Roman
Catholics, that we could bedoing more.
Theological colleges should bedoing more.
This is a major blind spot forus.
Can you just give us that call?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Well, there are 1.3 billion Catholics around the
world.
We find them everywhere, fromnorth to south, from west to
east, and it is by far thelargest religious institution in
the world, very much engaged inmission work and cultural work,
(16:54):
political work, media and so on, with its problems and tensions
, of course, but it is as if wedon't see it.
We are very much interested inall kinds of different issues,
challenges and topics, and it isright that we should be
(17:15):
interested in all of thesetopics, but when it comes to the
Catholic Church, it is as if wealready know what it is.
It's out of our radar and yet,if we don't address it
intentionally, in a theological,responsible way, the Catholic
(17:36):
Church is addressing us, istrying to posture itself in such
a way as to include us in itspost-Vatican II attempts at
embracing, absorbing, attractingevangelicals but not only
(17:59):
evangelicals into its more usedCatholicity.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You talk about?
Is Catholicism synchronistic?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, it is by nature, because Catholicity, catholic
means universal and the Catholicway of being Catholic is Roman
Catholic.
So it's not syncretism in itspure form, but it's a Catholic
type of syncretism.
It's a Roman type of syncretismbecause it always tries to then
(18:38):
put the syncretism into theRoman structures of Roman dogma,
roman hierarchical, the Romanhierarchical church and so on.
And so you find the LatinAmerican Catholicism is
syncretistic because it hasabsorbed the pre-Christian and
(19:02):
non-Christian practices and ithas put them into this Catholic
Roman shape.
The same is true as far asEurope, africa, australia.
So it's Catholic syncretistic,but not at the expense of it
being Roman.
And the genius of RomanCatholicism has always been to
(19:25):
maintain the tension between theRoman and the Catholic, the
Roman-centered and thesyncretistic intention, and to
maintain and not to make it astatic wooden type of system.
It is dynamic, although it isnot fluid.
(19:55):
It is crafted in such a way asto maintain both the Catholic
breath absorption, syncretismand the Roman structure centered
around the hierarchicalprinciples and institutions of
the Church.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Would you say Benedict was more Roman and
Francis is more Catholic.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yes, these are, to use your terminology.
Yeah, two clear examples ofdifferent ways of handling the
tension.
The system is not static, sothey don't duplicate it, but
according to differentchallenges, different situations
and contexts and personalities,and you can have a more Roman
(20:40):
point of balance or a moreCatholic point of balance.
Certainly, what we areobserving, especially with Pope
Francis, is an intentionaldesire to expand the Catholicity
, not to the point of breakingthe Roman aspect, otherwise we
(21:02):
would have the end of RomanCatholicism.
There could be a time in theRoman Catholic Church when what
Pope Francis is doing in pushingthe Catholicity will then need
a reverse move towards a moreRoman settlement.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I take it that that memo from George Pell
criticizing Francis, as Pell isessentially saying that
anonymous memo come back to Rome, come back to Rome.
Less of this synchronisticCatholicity.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, that's a kind of Catholic prophetic voice,
wishing that this reverse tidewould happen now.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I was actually quite surprised at.
I mean, even though Pell did itunder the guise of anonymity, I
was surprised that somebody wasprepared to actually say the
Pope is wrong.
I mean, we're used to that inthe Anglican Church but we're
not used to that in the CatholicChurch.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, there have been attempts by other cardinals to
send the message of a brotherlycorrection that's the technical
term and the Pope neverresponded to those voices.
And there have been othervoices trying to raise the issue
, some issues, but so far theyhave not received any hearing
(22:28):
rachel, um, if I'll come back toyou and then ask you for your
response on this too.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Leonardo, um, uh, I have felt a rebuke the last
couple of moments, um on.
I mean, in our church we'vejust had staff planning for the
year.
We've talked about ministry andreaching out to divorcees.
We've talked about reaching outto same-sex attracted people.
We've talked about reaching outto youth, to kids.
We never talked about RomanCatholics, and yet we don't have
(22:54):
as many as you, but we havequite a few.
And what?
As a senior pastor and we'veget a lot of senior pastors
watching, listening whatstrategic things would you be
encouraging us to do as weorganize our church calendar
life together?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
let's start with you, rachel, and then go so I would
be wanting to encourage allchurch members to be actively
engaging with their communities,and as they do that, they will
naturally encounter people froma Roman Catholic background.
So in inviting those people tochurch, I think as churches we
(23:35):
need to strategically thinkabout the things we're saying,
doing visually, what's going onthrough the eyes of a Catholic
person who could join us.
So, for example, the Lord'sSupper, the Eucharist, in the
(23:56):
Roman Catholic system is thehigh point, is the center of the
Christian life is the highpoint is the centre of the
Christian life, and so, in orderthat we're not perceived as a
cult, except participating inthe Lord's Supper regularly
gives something of weightinessto Christian gatherings, I think
(24:18):
preaching systematically issomething that can be very
powerful for Catholics, becausethey're often used to verses
lifted out and like a fourfoldreading of scripture that you
know can be allegorical andmoral.
And so, just as you'repreaching, what does it say?
What does it mean?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
What's it saying?
I remember being horrified.
I read through all the readingson a Sunday in the Roman
Catholic lectionary, for I don'tknow whether it was year A, b
or C in the lectionary cycle,but I could not find grace in
the year of readings and Ithought they have so
cherry-picked.
It was almost.
I don't know how you could picka year of 52 Old Testament, 52
(24:59):
New Testament, 52 Gospel and notyeah because Gospel, and not
yeah, because the focus is noton grace.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
The focus is on the Church administering you what
you need to hear and to know andso leading you to receiving,
you know, the sacramental gracethat the church administers.
And so the mass doesn't need,in order to be performed,
(25:32):
doesn't need a homilytechnically, but it needs the
Eucharist because that is where,and it's not a something that
is based on something that youhear, something that you listen
to, but it's based on somethingthat you taste and when you see,
watch their gestures.
There are all kinds of rituals,but the message of grace Taught
(25:57):
us in Scripture and preached tous us in Scripture and preach
to us is not the focus, and eventhe arrangement of the readings
doesn't seem to be focusing ongrace.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, let's come back to that question of organizing
the church that I just askedRachel.
What's your thoughts on that?
As you plan I mean, you're apastor of a church what do you
do?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Well, for us, you know, it's not so much in terms
of having a specific plan, butto arrange the life of the
church in order for it to be awelcoming church and to be aware
of some of the issues thatpeople coming from a Catholic
(26:51):
background might go through, forexample, in preaching as we
preach, and they're not used tohave long sermons.
You know, a typical homily inthe Roman Catholic Church is an
eight-minute homily.
So if we and I think we shouldhave a longer sermon, but we
(27:14):
should not presume that peopleare used to listen to longer
sermons and so, as preachers, wehave to be aware listen to
longer sermons and so, aspreachers, we have to be aware I
don't mean we have to restrictour time, but we have to be
aware of not overdoing it.
And then, as we preach it, it'sokay for them to listen to
(27:37):
God's Word, but as we preach theBible, we should find ways to
emphasize the finality ofScripture, the fact that this is
God's Word.
But as we preach the Bible, weshould find ways to emphasize
the finality of Scripture, thefact that this is God's Word and
it's not just a, you know,divine advice or something that
is part of what the Church tellsyou to do.
It is the Word of God, in orderto help them to appreciate the
(28:01):
fact that we're dealing withGod's Word as our final
authority, the words of the Lordfor us, and also then arrange
our church life in terms ofdisplaying the fact that we are
a community, we are a body, weare a family.
(28:23):
It's not just a bunch ofindividual believers happening
to come together randomly on aSunday morning or Sunday evening
, but we are a family thatspeaks to Catholics more than
words in their initial stages ofcoming closer to the faith.
(28:45):
They see that the gospel shapescommunities and not only
individuals.
They see that the gospel ispreached out of the Bible,
through the Bible, with theBible, and not through an
external authority voice tellingyou what to do and why.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I was hearing somewhere that the promotion of
Mary is at the expense of theHoly Spirit.
Do you want to just elaborateon that?
And therefore the faultydoctrine of the Trinity.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, one of the outcomes of the explosion of
Mariology over the centuries hasbeen that the role of the Holy
Spirit has been diminishedbecause, as Rachel was saying
earlier on, in order to approachChrist, mary is the one who
(29:43):
helps you to do that.
But this is exactly what theHoly Spirit does for us, bonding
us to Christ, opening for us.
You know the relationship withChrist, and so the spirit was
put in a kind of by the margin,in on the margin, and Mary
(30:06):
became a kind of replacement ofthe Holy Spirit, and also not
only of the Holy Spirit but alsoof Christ himself, because
Christ Was then considered to betoo high to divine, to glorious
, to distant, to remote todivine, and Mary was presented
as the mother, the carer.
(30:29):
There is an interestingsentence, not only by Pope
Francis but Pope Benedict, whois often considered as being
more biblical, moreChristocentric.
He says in one of theinterviews he gave to Peter
Sevald, the German journalistasking him about his Marian
(30:52):
spirituality, and he says Jesusis near, mary is nearer.
That also as a Christologicalhuge problem, because if Mary is
nearer than Jesus, we'reactually undermining the full
(31:12):
humanity of Jesus and we aredismissing the Holy Spirit,
making him redundant, and we areundermining the humanity of
Jesus.
So we are dealing with aTrinitarian issue, not just a
Mariological issue.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Just think in Revelation 1, I believe he's
here now standing in our midst,amen.
You've been listening to aninterview on the Pastor's Heart.
That's Leonardo DiCirico, andhe is a church planter, a pastor
in Rome and director of theReformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano is the new Dean ofAcademic Development at Mary
Andrews College in Sydney.
(31:49):
We will be back with a freshedition of the Pastor's Heart
next Tuesday afternoon.
It is the Pastor's Heart and Dominic Steele, and
this week we bring you a best ofedition of the Pastor's Heart
Reaching Roman Catholics withLeonardo DiCirico and Rachel
Ciano.
The thesis is that, while usingthe same words, evangelicals
and Roman Catholics meancompletely different things.
Most of us as evangelicalpastors, as theological colleges
(00:23):
, indeed really the whole ofevangelicalism we have a blind
spot when it comes to RomanCatholicism, in our theology,
missiology and in our practice.
Where do we, as evangelicals,make mistakes in our engagement
with the Roman Catholic world?
What can we change?
What should we change?
(00:43):
How do we best see our RomanCatholic friends come into a
personal, saving relationshipwith Jesus Christ?
Leonardo de Chirico has been atthe forefront of theological
education of evangelicals inthis space internationally for
over a decade.
He's a church planter, a pastorin Rome and director of the
(01:06):
Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano is the new Dean ofAcademic Development at Mary
Andrews College in Sydney.
Leonardo, thanks for coming in.
Rachel, thanks for coming in.
Rachel, thanks for coming in.
Let me start with you and yourpastor's heart for the Roman
(01:31):
Catholic.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm Italian and I've been ministering in Italy and in
Europe for the whole of my life, meeting thousands of neighbors
and colleagues and students,and most of them living
breathing Roman Catholicism intheir lives, and I've seen many
(01:58):
of them, if not the majority ofthem, lacking a grasp of basic
gospel truth, couched in areligiosity that oftentimes is
obscuring the gospel, if notdistorting it.
So it was out of you know,compassion and the desire to see
(02:20):
the gospel shining through inpeople's lives who have been so
much influenced by thetraditions, the teachings, the
practices of the Roman CatholicChurch.
And traveling abroad, I've seenthe same challenge globally.
(02:45):
It's not just anItalian-European thing.
If you go to Latin America, ifyou go to many different
countries, indeed throughout theworld, that's the same reality.
Roman Catholicism at bestobscures the Gospel, at worst it
distorts the gospel, at worstit distorts it.
And so there is a need to feelthe compassion, the desire for
(03:10):
the gospel to be clearlypresented in its biblical shape
and with a Christian heart.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
At best obscures, at worst distorts.
You said somewhere, I think arewe dealing with Galatians 1,
it's a false gospel, orPhilippians 1, it's a true
gospel, with wrong, faultymotives?
What's your take there?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, I think that, as far as the system, roman
Catholicism is a system, it'snot just a bunch of isolated
doctrines and practices, butit's a well-crafted theological,
doctrinal as well as devotionalsystem that shapes whole
(04:00):
cultures and adapts to differentcultures in order to take a
distinct Catholic form.
The system is the of acommitment to scripture alone,
(04:31):
christ alone, but it has beenbuilt over the centuries, over
multiple commitments and, in theend, leading to something of a
Galatian type of narrativegospel, plus that in terms up
with a different type of gospelIn terms of individual lives.
(05:16):
That is more, I think, the caseof a Philippians 1 scenario.
There are, of course course,individual Catholics who are
believers in Christ, but I wouldsay, you know, in spite of
their being consistent Catholicsand not because they are
consistent Catholics.
(05:36):
So they pick and choose, andthey're picking, choosing for,
by God's grace, some of them,they focus their lives on Christ
alone and they trust Christalone for their salvation and
life.
But this is not what the Churchteaches them to do.
They do it in spite of it, notbecause of it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I mean, I'm thinking of myself growing up as a Roman
Catholic and then understandinggrace, and so I'm agreeing.
I'm immediately agreeing withwhat you've just said.
But I see so many and I want tobring you in here, rachel so
many of pastor friends aroundthe place who have been
evangelical, grown up inevangelical church, wanting to
(06:20):
downplay the differences betweenRoman Catholicism and
evangelicalism.
Do you have that same take andsame frustration?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yes, absolutely so.
In my work at SMBC training uppeople for ministry in pastoral
work in Marrickville withfriends and family members,
there's a downplaying of thedifference and there's a number
of ways that that can happen.
Saying we agree on the NiceneCreed, so that's enough.
Saying we agree on two-thirdsof the Roman Catholic Catechism,
(06:52):
so that's enough.
Saying that Rome is moving in adifferent direction in the last
50, 60, 70 years after VaticanII, that's enough.
Looking at evangelicalCatholicism but not
understanding what the wordevangelical means in that
context, it's not the way thatwe're using the word at all.
So all these things are used, Ithink, out of a good heart.
(07:16):
We would love, we would lovethem catholics to be saved, and
sometimes, in downplaying thedifference, it's out of that
heart of surely they understandthe gospel.
But actually when you lookunder the surface, at the roots,
it's it's a very differentgospel.
It's a galatians one gospel,and so they need to hear the
(07:37):
message of faith alone in christ, alone so I mean just to pick
up on what Rachel just saidthere.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Leonardo, the same words, different meaning.
You've written extensively onthis.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, that is what really happens.
The vocabulary is the same,apart from a few specific Roman
Catholic terms introduced in theCatholic tradition, you know,
transubstantiation or theImmaculate Conception of Mary.
These are not biblical words orChristian words, these are
(08:14):
Catholic words.
But as far as you know, 90% ofthe vocabulary is concerned.
The words are the same Sin,grace, cross, jesus, gospel,
salvation, faith and hope.
And we could go on and on andon.
The problem is that they aremeant in a very different way
(08:35):
because they are not.
Their meaning is not taken fromthe Bible as the ultimate
authority, the ultimateauthority and the ultimate
interpreter of itself.
The meaning is the result of acomplex historical process where
(08:59):
the biblical meaning has beenblurred and with other meanings
and not being committed toScripture alone as the ultimate
authority.
The result is a combination ofthings that for each word, then
(09:22):
if you put, put them each wordin relationship to the other,
the whole meaning of theChristian faith is diverted,
quite different, quite different.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So it's not only just one word but it's all the words
and the result is, yes,something different, and you're
saying you want us to understandthis whole, and the whole
includes well, it's the doctrine, it's the institution, it's the
history, it's the culture.
It's a big project to get youaround that.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yes, yes, because that's the way in which
Catholicism has understooditself over the years, not as a,
you know, pick-and-choose typeof religious option, but as an
integrated whole.
And so it is for us.
It is not that we want to seeit as a whole, you know from
(10:15):
outside, but because Catholicismsees itself as a whole, so it's
fair to try to address it inits own terms and having then
theological, spiritual lenses toread it.
And so, doctrinally speaking,it's all part of an integrated
(10:37):
whole.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And yet, Rachel, most individual Roman Catholics are
pick-and-choose Catholics orcherry-picking Catholics.
It's not that they're adoptingthat whole, they're just kind of
how do we do that?
How do we engage with them?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
How do we engage with Catholic friends?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
The cherry-picking person.
Yeah yeah.
Well, the average person youmeet in Marrickville.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
The average person I meet in Marrickville.
So yeah, I do have lots ofCatholic friends and neighbours,
family members in the community.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And really your suburb.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
that's your suburb, yeah, yeah yeah, and so I try a
few things with them.
So, because one of thedifficult things in the Catholic
system is that it is notfounded on Scripture alone.
Scripture contains the Word ofGod, but it is not all of God's
(11:30):
words.
So I'm wanting to try and shiftand soften, very slowly, very
prayerfully, their confidence toGod's words.
I offer to read the Bible withmy Catholic friends, or we'll
talk about things?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Which part of the Bible?
Where do you go?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Depends what they want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So with some of my friends, mary and so, you're a
theological college lecturer,you're a genius in this place.
Of course you flex, but ifsomebody's watching and think I
don't know exactly what to do,what's your?
Oh, that's not the Bible.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So it's not a complex theological argument, but I
guess what I'm wanting to do isI'm wanting to one, bring their
eyes to the Word of God.
Two for many Roman Catholics,jesus feels very distant, feels
very far, which is why he mustbe accessed through Mary.
(12:25):
She has the ear of her son, soapproach her and she will bring
your requests.
So if I can present Jesus asthe one who is close by his
spirit in believers, then thatis very attractive.
So, for example, with friendswho are very devoted to Mary in
(12:47):
their practices, I will takethem and I'll tell them the
story of the wedding at Cana.
And as we talk through thatstory I'll say at the end look,
mary says, listen to my son, dowhatever he tells you.
So I say if I want to respectMary, which we do, then I need
(13:07):
to listen to her.
And she tells me to listen toher son.
Mary as well, in this system isprotected from original sin.
In the Immaculate Conception isbodily assumed as she nears
death.
So really she's verydisconnected to my everyday life
in that system.
(13:27):
She doesn't understand the fullintensity of temptation to sin.
She doesn't understand the fullagony of death.
Jesus understands bothcompletely.
So in my hour of need I needJesus.
He's so much more attractive.
So I think that's what I do.
I try and paint in thescriptures the attractiveness of
(13:48):
Jesus, and remembering thatit's a conversation.
It's not me slamming the Bible,it's a conversation.
And the other thing I do withmy Catholic friends and
relatives and neighbors is Ipray with them, because prayer
is often just contained to a setspace at a set time for them.
(14:10):
So if we're having aconversation, they're sharing
something that's difficult intheir life in their very kitchen
.
I say can I pray for you?
now about that and that is awonderfully moving experience
for them to see faith in action.
It's actually deeplytheological because right then
and there we're saying we haveaccess to the Father.
We don't need the hierarchy ofthe saints, but it's just that
(14:34):
simple task of praying with themin their kitchen shows that we
can have access to God throughChrist.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
What do you teach Leonardo as your go-to in terms
of taking people to theScriptures?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
the Catholic person as your go-to in terms of taking
people to the Scriptures.
The Catholic person?
Yeah, it varies according tocontext and situations, but I
have found that Matthew's Gospelis a Gospel that resonates with
an average Catholic reader,because there we find Jesus
(15:11):
dealing with the Jewish audienceor Jewish context, and very
much into this view whereby, inorder to be received by God, you
have to comply with the law ofMoses and do good works and so
(15:34):
on.
And so there Jesus speaks aboutthe Gospel in terms of Him
being the new Moses and himbeing the fulfillment of the law
, and us having to receive hiswork and to respond to it.
So, as far as one gospel isconcerned, matthew seems to be a
(15:58):
good place to start a not anoccasional conversation, but a
more intentional series ofconversations.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Leonardo, I've heard you say that we evangelicals
we've really dropped the ball inour engagement with Roman
Catholics, that we could bedoing more.
Theological colleges should bedoing more.
This is a major blind spot forus.
Can you just give us that call?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Well, there are 1.3 billion Catholics around the
world.
We find them everywhere, fromnorth to south, from west to
east, and it is by far thelargest religious institution in
the world, very much engaged inmission work and cultural work,
(16:54):
political work, media and so on, with its problems and tensions
, of course, but it is as if wedon't see it.
We are very much interested inall kinds of different issues,
challenges and topics, and it isright that we should be
(17:15):
interested in all of thesetopics, but when it comes to the
Catholic Church, it is as if wealready know what it is.
It's out of our radar and yet,if we don't address it
intentionally, in a theological,responsible way, the Catholic
(17:36):
Church is addressing us, istrying to posture itself in such
a way as to include us in itspost-Vatican II attempts at
embracing, absorbing, attractingevangelicals but not only
(17:59):
evangelicals into its more usedCatholicity.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You talk about?
Is Catholicism synchronistic?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, it is by nature, because Catholicity, catholic
means universal and the Catholicway of being Catholic is Roman
Catholic.
So it's not syncretism in itspure form, but it's a Catholic
type of syncretism.
It's a Roman type of syncretismbecause it always tries to then
(18:38):
put the syncretism into theRoman structures of Roman dogma,
roman hierarchical, the Romanhierarchical church and so on.
And so you find the LatinAmerican Catholicism is
syncretistic because it hasabsorbed the pre-Christian and
(19:02):
non-Christian practices and ithas put them into this Catholic
Roman shape.
The same is true as far asEurope, africa, australia.
So it's Catholic syncretistic,but not at the expense of it
being Roman.
And the genius of RomanCatholicism has always been to
(19:25):
maintain the tension between theRoman and the Catholic, the
Roman-centered and thesyncretistic intention, and to
maintain and not to make it astatic wooden type of system.
It is dynamic, although it isnot fluid.
(19:55):
It is crafted in such a way asto maintain both the Catholic
breath absorption, syncretismand the Roman structure centered
around the hierarchicalprinciples and institutions of
the Church.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Would you say Benedict was more Roman and
Francis is more Catholic.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yes, these are, to use your terminology.
Yeah, two clear examples ofdifferent ways of handling the
tension.
The system is not static, sothey don't duplicate it, but
according to differentchallenges, different situations
and contexts and personalities,and you can have a more Roman
(20:40):
point of balance or a moreCatholic point of balance.
Certainly, what we areobserving, especially with Pope
Francis, is an intentionaldesire to expand the Catholicity
, not to the point of breakingthe Roman aspect, otherwise we
(21:02):
would have the end of RomanCatholicism.
There could be a time in theRoman Catholic Church when what
Pope Francis is doing in pushingthe Catholicity will then need
a reverse move towards a moreRoman settlement.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I take it that that memo from George Pell
criticizing Francis, as Pell isessentially saying that
anonymous memo come back to Rome, come back to Rome.
Less of this synchronisticCatholicity.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, that's a kind of Catholic prophetic voice,
wishing that this reverse tidewould happen now.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I was actually quite surprised at.
I mean, even though Pell did itunder the guise of anonymity, I
was surprised that somebody wasprepared to actually say the
Pope is wrong.
I mean, we're used to that inthe Anglican Church but we're
not used to that in the CatholicChurch.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, there have been attempts by other cardinals to
send the message of a brotherlycorrection that's the technical
term and the Pope neverresponded to those voices.
And there have been othervoices trying to raise the issue
, some issues, but so far theyhave not received any hearing
(22:28):
rachel, um, if I'll come back toyou and then ask you for your
response on this too.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Leonardo, um, uh, I have felt a rebuke the last
couple of moments, um on.
I mean, in our church we'vejust had staff planning for the
year.
We've talked about ministry andreaching out to divorcees.
We've talked about reaching outto same-sex attracted people.
We've talked about reaching outto youth, to kids.
We never talked about RomanCatholics, and yet we don't have
(22:54):
as many as you, but we havequite a few.
And what?
As a senior pastor and we'veget a lot of senior pastors
watching, listening whatstrategic things would you be
encouraging us to do as weorganize our church calendar
life together?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
let's start with you, rachel, and then go so I would
be wanting to encourage allchurch members to be actively
engaging with their communities,and as they do that, they will
naturally encounter people froma Roman Catholic background.
So in inviting those people tochurch, I think as churches we
(23:35):
need to strategically thinkabout the things we're saying,
doing visually, what's going onthrough the eyes of a Catholic
person who could join us.
So, for example, the Lord'sSupper, the Eucharist, in the
(23:56):
Roman Catholic system is thehigh point, is the center of the
Christian life is the highpoint is the centre of the
Christian life, and so, in orderthat we're not perceived as a
cult, except participating inthe Lord's Supper regularly
gives something of weightinessto Christian gatherings, I think
(24:18):
preaching systematically issomething that can be very
powerful for Catholics, becausethey're often used to verses
lifted out and like a fourfoldreading of scripture that you
know can be allegorical andmoral.
And so, just as you'repreaching, what does it say?
What does it mean?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
What's it saying?
I remember being horrified.
I read through all the readingson a Sunday in the Roman
Catholic lectionary, for I don'tknow whether it was year A, b
or C in the lectionary cycle,but I could not find grace in
the year of readings and Ithought they have so
cherry-picked.
It was almost.
I don't know how you could picka year of 52 Old Testament, 52
(24:59):
New Testament, 52 Gospel and notyeah because Gospel, and not
yeah, because the focus is noton grace.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
The focus is on the Church administering you what
you need to hear and to know andso leading you to receiving,
you know, the sacramental gracethat the church administers.
And so the mass doesn't need,in order to be performed,
(25:32):
doesn't need a homilytechnically, but it needs the
Eucharist because that is where,and it's not a something that
is based on something that youhear, something that you listen
to, but it's based on somethingthat you taste and when you see,
watch their gestures.
There are all kinds of rituals,but the message of grace Taught
(25:57):
us in Scripture and preached tous us in Scripture and preach
to us is not the focus, and eventhe arrangement of the readings
doesn't seem to be focusing ongrace.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, let's come back to that question of organizing
the church that I just askedRachel.
What's your thoughts on that?
As you plan I mean, you're apastor of a church what do you
do?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Well, for us, you know, it's not so much in terms
of having a specific plan, butto arrange the life of the
church in order for it to be awelcoming church and to be aware
of some of the issues thatpeople coming from a Catholic
(26:51):
background might go through, forexample, in preaching as we
preach, and they're not used tohave long sermons.
You know, a typical homily inthe Roman Catholic Church is an
eight-minute homily.
So if we and I think we shouldhave a longer sermon, but we
(27:14):
should not presume that peopleare used to listen to longer
sermons and so, as preachers, wehave to be aware listen to
longer sermons and so, aspreachers, we have to be aware I
don't mean we have to restrictour time, but we have to be
aware of not overdoing it.
And then, as we preach it, it'sokay for them to listen to
(27:37):
God's Word, but as we preach theBible, we should find ways to
emphasize the finality ofScripture, the fact that this is
God's Word.
But as we preach the Bible, weshould find ways to emphasize
the finality of Scripture, thefact that this is God's Word and
it's not just a, you know,divine advice or something that
is part of what the Church tellsyou to do.
It is the Word of God, in orderto help them to appreciate the
(28:01):
fact that we're dealing withGod's Word as our final
authority, the words of the Lordfor us, and also then arrange
our church life in terms ofdisplaying the fact that we are
a community, we are a body, weare a family.
(28:23):
It's not just a bunch ofindividual believers happening
to come together randomly on aSunday morning or Sunday evening
, but we are a family thatspeaks to Catholics more than
words in their initial stages ofcoming closer to the faith.
(28:45):
They see that the gospel shapescommunities and not only
individuals.
They see that the gospel ispreached out of the Bible,
through the Bible, with theBible, and not through an
external authority voice tellingyou what to do and why.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I was hearing somewhere that the promotion of
Mary is at the expense of theHoly Spirit.
Do you want to just elaborateon that?
And therefore the faultydoctrine of the Trinity.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, one of the outcomes of the explosion of
Mariology over the centuries hasbeen that the role of the Holy
Spirit has been diminishedbecause, as Rachel was saying
earlier on, in order to approachChrist, mary is the one who
(29:43):
helps you to do that.
But this is exactly what theHoly Spirit does for us, bonding
us to Christ, opening for us.
You know the relationship withChrist, and so the spirit was
put in a kind of by the margin,in on the margin, and Mary
(30:06):
became a kind of replacement ofthe Holy Spirit, and also not
only of the Holy Spirit but alsoof Christ himself, because
Christ Was then considered to betoo high to divine, to glorious
, to distant, to remote todivine, and Mary was presented
as the mother, the carer.
(30:29):
There is an interestingsentence, not only by Pope
Francis but Pope Benedict, whois often considered as being
more biblical, moreChristocentric.
He says in one of theinterviews he gave to Peter
Sevald, the German journalistasking him about his Marian
(30:52):
spirituality, and he says Jesusis near, mary is nearer.
That also as a Christologicalhuge problem, because if Mary is
nearer than Jesus, we'reactually undermining the full
(31:12):
humanity of Jesus and we aredismissing the Holy Spirit,
making him redundant, and we areundermining the humanity of
Jesus.
So we are dealing with aTrinitarian issue, not just a
Mariological issue.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Just think in Revelation 1, I believe he's
here now standing in our midst,amen.
You've been listening to aninterview on the Pastor's Heart.
That's Leonardo DiCirico, andhe is a church planter, a pastor
in Rome and director of theReformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano is the new Dean ofAcademic Development at Mary
Andrews College in Sydney.
(31:49):
We will be back with a freshedition of the Pastor's Heart
next Tuesday afternoon.
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