The death of Pope Francis marks a pivotal moment for Roman Catholics.
What does this transition mean for the future of Catholicism and how should Protestants respond?
From Vatican City, Leonardo Di Chirico offers a firsthand perspective on reactions in Rome, while Rachel Ciano provides historical context from Sydney.
Many Protestant leaders have referred to Francis as a "brother in Christ," but Francis's final public act—granting indulgences during Easter—epitomizes the theological chasm between Catholic and Protestant understandings of salvation.
His distinctive Marian devotion and frequent requests for prayers further highlight fundamental differences in how salvation is understood.
The contrast between Benedict XVI's emphasis on Roman doctrine and Francis's focus on Catholic universality reveals a pendulum swing in Roman Catholicism that will likely now swing back.
Leonardo di Chirico is pastor of the Church Brecca di Roma and director of the Reformanda Initiative.
Rachel Ciano lectures in Christianity and History at sydney missionary and bible college, and is part of the faculty at the Rome scholars and leaders network, hosted by The Reformanda Initiative.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
It is the pastor's heart, and Dominic Steele in a
special edition.
Now Pope Francis is dead.
How should Protestants react?
And what next for RomanCatholicism?
Leonardo Di Chirico is with uson the line from Vatican City
and Rachel Ciano is with me herein Sydney.
Leonardo is pastor of thechurch Breccia di Roma and
director of the ReformandaInstitute.
(00:29):
Rachel lectures in Christianityand history at Sydney
Missionary and Bible College andis part of the faculty at the
Rome Scholars and LeadersNetwork hosted by the Reformanda
Initiative.
Leonardo, if we could startwith you and look, I understand
the outpouring of grief fromRoman Catholics, but what's the
(00:51):
reaction of Protestants in Rometo the death of Francis?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, protestants have been dealing with Pope
Francis for 13 years, the yearsof his reign, and they've been
accustomed to having to do withthe Pope who in many ways,
changed the attitude, the toneof the Pope, the papal office,
(01:19):
with regards to non-Catholicpeople.
And so now theyants here areexpressing condolences to their
neighbors but at the same timeaffirming the fact that, while
(01:42):
the vicar, the so-called vicarof Christ is dead, the risen
Christ is alive and the gospelis true.
And so, taking advantage ofthis time of grief to convey, to
take the opportunity to talkabout the gospel hope that we
(02:02):
have in Christ, and Christ isalive.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Rachel, I have been surprised at the reaction here
and not just here, but aroundthe blogosphere, as I've read
people of different Protestantswanting I mean wanting
compassionately to express griefabout the death of Francis and
(02:28):
yet wanting to acknowledge himas a Christian brother.
And what's your reaction there?
How have you reacted whenyou've seen that online?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
In a way, it makes sense that they're calling on
Pope Francis as a brother,because Pope Francis has been
very skillful during his papacyat using the language of
brotherhood.
His encyclical we're AllBrothers and his Joy of the
Gospel, evangelii Gaudium, usedlanguage that's very inclusive,
(03:01):
very Catholic, very universal,very embracing, to try and call
people essentially back to Romeby calling them brothers and
inviting them in.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And downplaying differences.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Downplaying differences, using language that
makes sense to evangelicals,even if the meaning of those
words is not agreed upon.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So, leonardo, could you just help me here?
The Roman Catholic Churchteaches indulgences and it's the
Pope who actually, in the end,administers the indulgences.
And so, by definition, unlessthe Pope were to repudiate
indulgences, he cannot be ajustification by faith alone.
(03:45):
Person.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
No, actually, his last public engagement was an
offering of an indulgence, theUrbi et Orbi benediction, on
Easter day, the last time hebecame visible and showed up In
granting that blessing, he gavean indulgence to all the people,
(04:09):
not only who were present therein St Peter's Square, but also
to all those who would receiveit via television and digital
means.
And so the whole theology ofindulgences contradicts the
basic understanding ofjustification by faith alone,
(04:33):
and we're going, we're back tothe controversies in the 16th
century.
In that sense, rome hasn'tchanged Pope Francis.
Although he would often talkabout grace, faith, it never
really changed not only his mindbut also, more importantly, the
(04:56):
teaching of the Catholic Churchwith regards to justification
by faith.
Rome is not committed to thedoctrine of justification by
faith alone.
It's still committed to thisview whereby grace is necessary
but not in itself sufficient.
(05:17):
Faith is necessary but notsufficient.
And so everything else flowsout of this confusion.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And if I'm relying on an indulgence, then I'm not
trusting in Christ alone for mysalvation and I can't actually
have a guarantee of myselfmaking it to heaven.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yes, that's true.
It to heaven?
Yes, that's true, you areactually.
The idea is that you have to bepurified before entering heaven
, and purification entails yourworks, your paying of the price
of your temporal sins.
And so Christ's work is notsufficient, god's grace is not
(06:08):
sufficient and the gift of faithis not sufficient.
You are supposed to dosomething to supplement what God
has done for you.
So, in this sense, the wholetheology of indulgences defies
the sufficiency of the work ofChrist and the sufficiency of
(06:32):
God's grace for our salvation.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Just keeping on going on that, rachel.
The masses that are going to becelebrated for Francis post his
death are actually evidencethat even he doesn't think his
salvation is assured.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Absolutely.
He keeps asking, or in his life, kept asking people pray for me
, pray for me.
And so now, upon his death,those prayers continue because
salvation is not assured evenfor Pope Francis.
And so the masses are said forthe dead, and now include Pope
Francis.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And that's every day For nine days, for nine days.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Masses for the dead, so they are a way of continuing
to obtain the grace of God onbehalf of the deceased person.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Right, I mean, it's just mind-boggling, really,
isn't it?
But now, what about him andMary?
Because he has a particulardevotion to Mary.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Absolutely.
He draws very close to Mary.
He drew very close to Mary inhis life.
He would be praying the rosarydaily, calling on Mary.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I find the rosary so exasperating.
It says Hail Mary, full ofgrace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, prayfor us sinners now and at the
hour of our death, amen.
So that right there, at themoment that I die, mary is
interceding for me because Idon't have a guarantee of
(08:07):
salvation.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, she's the one who is able to help you access
the grace of God.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
She's the one who is able to give you the ear of her
son, francis, can't beguaranteed.
No Catholic is guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So he dedicated his papacy to Mary.
His first act upon beingelected Pope was to go to St
Mary Major in Rome.
That's where he wants to beburied.
He's going to be one of thefirst Popes in a few hundred
years to be buried outside ofthe Vatican.
So Mary was such a central partof his spirituality and would
(08:41):
have formed a central part ofhis spirituality as he drew
close to death.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Not a gospel, man yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I think it's difficult to not call on Jesus
at the hour of your death and becalled a gospel person.
The person who I want to callon at the hour of my death is
Jesus, because he has walked outof the tomb.
Mary, by virtue of not just theimmaculate conception, butption
(09:15):
, means that she never quitetasted the sting and fullness of
death, and so she can'tsympathise with my weakness.
Jesus, can he tasted the fullagony of death?
And he's the name that I wantto call on as I die.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So what do you think is going on with evangelical
leader after evangelical leader,who seems to be referring to
the Pope as a brother in Christand speaking as if he's about to
be enjoying eternal life?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I think a few things are going on.
I think there's a deep desirefor unity, but then we need to
have the discussion what are weunited around?
If we're united around thegospel, what is the gospel
according to the Roman CatholicChurch?
What is the gospel that isre-illuminated in the 16th
(10:10):
century in the Reformationmovement?
And so I think there's a desirefor unity, but there's a
misunderstanding of key ideasand how they're articulated in
Rome, catholicism and withinevangelicalism, protestantism
more broadly, and Laos touchedon the necessity for working
(10:36):
with God in accessing grace.
So grace is accessed and notthrough the finished work of
Christ on the cross and hisresurrection, as we've just
celebrated in Easter, but it'saccessed through the sacraments.
The Eucharist is the source andsummit of the Christian life,
according to the Roman CatholicCatechism, and so partaking in
(10:57):
that sacrament and in thesacramental system is necessary
for salvation, and so there's abig difference on what the
gospel is.
I think Protestants are wantingto extend generosity towards
Pope Francis and the RomanCatholic Church, but there's
often a misunderstanding of theissues that lie underneath that,
(11:20):
and we can't forget thatpost-Vatican II theology and the
movement of the Roman CatholicChurch is moving towards a more
Catholic characteristic of theRoman Catholic Church towards a
more Catholic characteristic ofthe Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Let's talk about the legacy that Francis leaves
versus the legacy that Benedictleft 12, 13 years ago, and how
has it changed?
How has the Roman CatholicChurch changed in the 12, 13
years?
Let's start with you, leonardo.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, to put it simply, Benedict tried to
reinforce the Roman structuresof Roman Catholicism at a time
when they were questioned andeven undermined the moral
authority of the Church, thedoctrinal outlook of the Church,
(12:10):
the Catholic catechism,catholic positioning in global
issues, and so on.
He tried to solidify the Romancharacter of the Roman Catholic
Church.
But his papacy ended upabruptly with the resignation,
(12:32):
and the resignation was a symbolof, in many ways, the failure
of that project.
Francis tried to do theopposite, tried to expand the
Catholicity of Rome, theembracement, the inclusive
nature of Catholic claims andpractices, and downplaying the
(12:55):
Roman outlook of the RomanChurch.
And so I think this comparisonand contrast helps to understand
the difference between the twolegacies One wanting to affirm
the Roman hard core, hard powerof the Catholic Church Catechism
(13:19):
, doctrine, theology, sacramentsand the other one, francis' one
, wanting to instead underlinethe Catholic soul of the
Catholic Church, the motherlyembracing, affirming attitude of
the Church towards all.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It feels, Rachel, as if a Protestant relating with
Catholicism at the end ofBenedict's time is relating to a
very different Catholicism tothe Catholicism at the end of
Francis' time differentCatholicism to the Catholicism
at the end of Francis's time.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I think it's the same Catholicism but different
natures of the church areemphasised.
So in Pope Benedict's reignit's the Roman nature, but never
forgetting the Catholic, theinclusive.
And in Francis's papacy, it isthe Catholic embrace,
brotherhood, come back to Romecall that is emphasised without
ever dropping the Roman-ness.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Francis was a church priest, but it's a pendulum
swing.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
It's a pendulum swing without ever dropping the other
.
The emphases change, and soit's going to be interesting to
see who is next chosen to bePope.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I guess that's the big question is does the
pendulum keep swinging furtherout or does it swing back?
What's your expectation,leonardo?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, I think that Pope Francis came close to the
maximum stretching point,perhaps the breaking point of
the whole system maximumstretching point, perhaps the
breaking point of the wholesystem and in the end he kind of
stopped the process by.
You know, at the end of thesynodal or synodal, the
(15:10):
synodality expectations werehigh that he would then
introduce the ordination ofwomen, or allowing the marriage
of priests, or the blessing ofsame-sex couples, and he stopped
all these things because heunderstood that perhaps these
(15:32):
were over the top and didn'twant to get there.
So in a sense, his final yearwas a signal that he himself had
understood that perhaps he hadoverstretched the process.
And so what is, I think, to beexpected now is a kind of
(15:55):
rebalancing, not going back toRatzinger's hard positions, but
a more balanced Catholictendency, less radical than
Francis's, and taking advantageof the fact that the breaking
(16:18):
point has not been reached.
And so there is a time toreassess and rebalance the
equilibrium.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I felt, Rachel, that it was almost like Francis
wanted to keep pushing, but hecouldn't take the church with
him and so he stopped.
Is that your read?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I think Lois expressed it well.
It is a pendulum swinging andit feels like it did reach as
far as the Roman Catholic Churchcould go.
It's interesting that Francishas appointed a lot of the
cardinals that now sit 75% orsomething 75% of the College of
Cardinals who are of theeligible age under 80, to vote
(17:01):
for the next Pope, to elect thenext Pope, and so there's a
sense that he has shaped theCollege of Cardinals, but I
don't think there's going to beanother Francis straight up.
I think there's going to bejust a little bit of correction.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
I mean that is interesting thatin 12 years you can appoint all
the cardinals.
Well, three quarters of thecardinals who will do the voting
, that just seemed wow, becausemost papacy's are going to go at
least that length of time.
The guy does get effectively tochoose his successor.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, that's right, that's how the system works, and
he's been very active increating new cardinals, to the
point of shaping the wholecollege.
Having said that, there is asaying that those who enter the
conclave as favorite candidatesget out not having been elected
(18:02):
as folks, and so I would be.
I wouldn't miss, I would.
I would be cautious in sayingthat the Preferred candidate by
Francis will necessarily bevoted in.
Con clubs are unique andcomplex events that defy
(18:25):
forecasts and simplisticexpectations, but I agree that
what is to be expected,generally speaking, is a time of
pause, a time of rebalancing, atime of healing, because the
Catholic Church is also verymuch divided.
(18:47):
Francis has left the Churchvery much divided in itself and
there are factions and groupsthat are fighting against each
other, and perhaps a Pope thatis willing to and capable of
bringing reconciliation issomething that is desirable
Leonardo.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
he was nowhere near as strong a theologian as his
predecessor, pope Benedict.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
He has never completed a degree in theology,
never published a theology bookin his lifetime before being
elected as Pope.
So he has been, and he was aJesuit by definition, eclectic
and defined strict and clearcategories.
(19:35):
So, theologically speaking, Ithink while Benedict was an
Augustinian, post-vatican IIressourcement theologian,
francis was a Jesuit with a veryelastic and moving type of
(20:02):
theology, depending onexercising the Jesuit
discernment.
That oftentimes meansevaluating things without having
a principled, without having aprincipled framework to do that,
(20:30):
but adapting to situations andkind of feeling the wind and
following the wind.
And so Francis has been moving,from being taking conservative
positions when he was inArgentina and then becoming more
open on certain things and thenchanging his mind on other
things.
He is being a wave rather thana rock.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And yet he I think people would acknowledge that
he's done a good job on theissue of child sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yes, you're right.
I mean it was in many ways thatwas the situation that he
inherited when Pope Benedictresigned 13 years ago and he
took some initiatives to addressthe issue, at least globally,
(21:20):
then.
Scandals have occurred evenafter Francis, but I think he
tried to address the issue froma canonical and pastoral point
of view, but not eradicating theproblem, but certainly trying
(21:44):
to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I'm just thinking of the Protestant and our battle
with secularism.
It'll be easier for usProtestants to battle secularism
if the Roman Catholic Churchholds creedily against
secularism rather than goes allwoolly woolly.
And so there's a technicaltheological term.
(22:08):
But I guess it would be in theinterests of Protestant faith
and the preaching of a clearChrist to the world that the
more conservative Pope we get,the better.
Do you want to comment?
Agree, disagree.
I'm just flying the kite here.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
It's interesting that this is also the year the
1300th anniversary of theCouncil of Nicaea.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Which we're going to get you both back on in a couple
of weeks' time In person, nextweek, of the Council of Nicaea,
which we're going to get youboth back on in a couple of
weeks' time In person, yeah,next week.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
And so that is very much a call for creedal unity.
But even as we say those wordstogether, I think we need to
have a deeper think about whatwe mean by each of these things.
What do we mean when we confesstogether one holy Catholic
apostolic church?
What do we mean when we sayborn of the virgin mary?
Um, so I think there are greatdifferences even in creedal
(23:03):
unity.
And um, yes, francis was moreflexible, more of a pastoral
pope, someone who lived closerto the people, took the concerns
of the poor of the world, um inhand, but there is a Roman-ness
to him that never quite left.
So he wasn't a heavyweighttheologian, but the one
(23:25):
published work he had prior tobecoming Pope Francis was Luther
the heretic, calvin theschismatic.
So there's never, it's never.
Whatever Pope comes next, hewill be Roman and Catholic.
It is just which one of thoseis more emphasised and to what
degree.
And I think Lael's right, theywill be looking for someone who
(23:48):
is able to heal some of theschisms and divisions within the
Roman Catholic Church itself,because Francis who did push it?
so far.
There are those within thechurch that would love it to
look more Roman again, as it didunder Ratzinger and as it was
pre-Vatican II.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Now, final question Lots of people I'm imagining
will be watching the movieConclave and thinking this is
what's going to happen.
How realistic is the movieConclave to what's actually
going to be happening in termsof the process the next couple
of weeks?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It is realistic in the sense that the Conclave is a
meeting of 130 basically oldmen, and so the Conclave movie
shows that these people wouldtake pills to sleep, with the
pills to after dinner and so on.
(24:48):
So in that sense it wasrealistic.
It was also realistic in the indepicting the so-called
congregations taking placebefore the conclave.
The first one will occurtonight to have all the
cardinals discussing how tohandle the funerals and then the
(25:10):
decisions to be made beforeentering the Sistine Chapel.
And they are.
These meetings are not recorded,there's no one outside of the
group, so the movie depictedthat meeting, those meetings, in
realistic terms.
(25:32):
I don't think that, then, themovie is realistic in depicting
the choice of the candidate, asthe movie tells the story, but
(25:52):
in some ways it is what is to beexpected Having a gathering of
the princes of the church mostof them are old people having
health issues and going throughserious discussions taking place
before the Conclave on what arethe prospects of the church,
(26:17):
what are the problems and who isthe profile that is better
suited to lead the church in thenext phase.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Leonardo Rachel, thanks so much for talking to us
today on the Pastor's Heart.
Leonardo Di Chirico on the linethere from Vatican City and
Rachel Ciano here with me inSydney.
Leonardo, pastor of the Church,richard Dioroma and the
director of the ReformandaInstitute, and Rachel lectures
in Christianity and history atSydney Missionary and Bible
(26:48):
College and is part of thefaculty at the Rome Scholars and
Leaders Network.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart, and Dominic Steele in a
special edition.
Now Pope Francis is dead.
How should Protestants react?
And what next for RomanCatholicism?
Leonardo Di Chirico is with uson the line from Vatican City
and Rachel Ciano is with me herein Sydney.
Leonardo is pastor of thechurch Breccia di Roma and
director of the ReformandaInstitute.
(00:29):
Rachel lectures in Christianityand history at Sydney
Missionary and Bible College andis part of the faculty at the
Rome Scholars and LeadersNetwork hosted by the Reformanda
Initiative.
Leonardo, if we could startwith you and look, I understand
the outpouring of grief fromRoman Catholics, but what's the
(00:51):
reaction of Protestants in Rometo the death of Francis?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, protestants have been dealing with Pope
Francis for 13 years, the yearsof his reign, and they've been
accustomed to having to do withthe Pope who in many ways,
changed the attitude, the toneof the Pope, the papal office,
(01:19):
with regards to non-Catholicpeople.
And so now theyants here areexpressing condolences to their
neighbors but at the same timeaffirming the fact that, while
(01:42):
the vicar, the so-called vicarof Christ is dead, the risen
Christ is alive and the gospelis true.
And so, taking advantage ofthis time of grief to convey, to
take the opportunity to talkabout the gospel hope that we
(02:02):
have in Christ, and Christ isalive.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Rachel, I have been surprised at the reaction here
and not just here, but aroundthe blogosphere, as I've read
people of different Protestantswanting I mean wanting
compassionately to express griefabout the death of Francis and
(02:28):
yet wanting to acknowledge himas a Christian brother.
And what's your reaction there?
How have you reacted whenyou've seen that online?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
In a way, it makes sense that they're calling on
Pope Francis as a brother,because Pope Francis has been
very skillful during his papacyat using the language of
brotherhood.
His encyclical we're AllBrothers and his Joy of the
Gospel, evangelii Gaudium, usedlanguage that's very inclusive,
(03:01):
very Catholic, very universal,very embracing, to try and call
people essentially back to Romeby calling them brothers and
inviting them in.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And downplaying differences.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Downplaying differences, using language that
makes sense to evangelicals,even if the meaning of those
words is not agreed upon.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So, leonardo, could you just help me here?
The Roman Catholic Churchteaches indulgences and it's the
Pope who actually, in the end,administers the indulgences.
And so, by definition, unlessthe Pope were to repudiate
indulgences, he cannot be ajustification by faith alone.
(03:45):
Person.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
No, actually, his last public engagement was an
offering of an indulgence, theUrbi et Orbi benediction, on
Easter day, the last time hebecame visible and showed up In
granting that blessing, he gavean indulgence to all the people,
(04:09):
not only who were present therein St Peter's Square, but also
to all those who would receiveit via television and digital
means.
And so the whole theology ofindulgences contradicts the
basic understanding ofjustification by faith alone,
(04:33):
and we're going, we're back tothe controversies in the 16th
century.
In that sense, rome hasn'tchanged Pope Francis.
Although he would often talkabout grace, faith, it never
really changed not only his mindbut also, more importantly, the
(04:56):
teaching of the Catholic Churchwith regards to justification
by faith.
Rome is not committed to thedoctrine of justification by
faith alone.
It's still committed to thisview whereby grace is necessary
but not in itself sufficient.
(05:17):
Faith is necessary but notsufficient.
And so everything else flowsout of this confusion.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And if I'm relying on an indulgence, then I'm not
trusting in Christ alone for mysalvation and I can't actually
have a guarantee of myselfmaking it to heaven.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yes, that's true.
It to heaven?
Yes, that's true, you areactually.
The idea is that you have to bepurified before entering heaven
, and purification entails yourworks, your paying of the price
of your temporal sins.
And so Christ's work is notsufficient, god's grace is not
(06:08):
sufficient and the gift of faithis not sufficient.
You are supposed to dosomething to supplement what God
has done for you.
So, in this sense, the wholetheology of indulgences defies
the sufficiency of the work ofChrist and the sufficiency of
(06:32):
God's grace for our salvation.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Just keeping on going on that, rachel.
The masses that are going to becelebrated for Francis post his
death are actually evidencethat even he doesn't think his
salvation is assured.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Absolutely.
He keeps asking, or in his life, kept asking people pray for me
, pray for me.
And so now, upon his death,those prayers continue because
salvation is not assured evenfor Pope Francis.
And so the masses are said forthe dead, and now include Pope
Francis.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And that's every day For nine days, for nine days.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Masses for the dead, so they are a way of continuing
to obtain the grace of God onbehalf of the deceased person.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Right, I mean, it's just mind-boggling, really,
isn't it?
But now, what about him andMary?
Because he has a particulardevotion to Mary.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Absolutely.
He draws very close to Mary.
He drew very close to Mary inhis life.
He would be praying the rosarydaily, calling on Mary.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I find the rosary so exasperating.
It says Hail Mary, full ofgrace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, prayfor us sinners now and at the
hour of our death, amen.
So that right there, at themoment that I die, mary is
interceding for me because Idon't have a guarantee of
(08:07):
salvation.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, she's the one who is able to help you access
the grace of God.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
She's the one who is able to give you the ear of her
son, francis, can't beguaranteed.
No Catholic is guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So he dedicated his papacy to Mary.
His first act upon beingelected Pope was to go to St
Mary Major in Rome.
That's where he wants to beburied.
He's going to be one of thefirst Popes in a few hundred
years to be buried outside ofthe Vatican.
So Mary was such a central partof his spirituality and would
(08:41):
have formed a central part ofhis spirituality as he drew
close to death.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Not a gospel, man yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I think it's difficult to not call on Jesus
at the hour of your death and becalled a gospel person.
The person who I want to callon at the hour of my death is
Jesus, because he has walked outof the tomb.
Mary, by virtue of not just theimmaculate conception, butption
(09:15):
, means that she never quitetasted the sting and fullness of
death, and so she can'tsympathise with my weakness.
Jesus, can he tasted the fullagony of death?
And he's the name that I wantto call on as I die.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So what do you think is going on with evangelical
leader after evangelical leader,who seems to be referring to
the Pope as a brother in Christand speaking as if he's about to
be enjoying eternal life?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I think a few things are going on.
I think there's a deep desirefor unity, but then we need to
have the discussion what are weunited around?
If we're united around thegospel, what is the gospel
according to the Roman CatholicChurch?
What is the gospel that isre-illuminated in the 16th
(10:10):
century in the Reformationmovement?
And so I think there's a desirefor unity, but there's a
misunderstanding of key ideasand how they're articulated in
Rome, catholicism and withinevangelicalism, protestantism
more broadly, and Laos touchedon the necessity for working
(10:36):
with God in accessing grace.
So grace is accessed and notthrough the finished work of
Christ on the cross and hisresurrection, as we've just
celebrated in Easter, but it'saccessed through the sacraments.
The Eucharist is the source andsummit of the Christian life,
according to the Roman CatholicCatechism, and so partaking in
(10:57):
that sacrament and in thesacramental system is necessary
for salvation, and so there's abig difference on what the
gospel is.
I think Protestants are wantingto extend generosity towards
Pope Francis and the RomanCatholic Church, but there's
often a misunderstanding of theissues that lie underneath that,
(11:20):
and we can't forget thatpost-Vatican II theology and the
movement of the Roman CatholicChurch is moving towards a more
Catholic characteristic of theRoman Catholic Church towards a
more Catholic characteristic ofthe Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Let's talk about the legacy that Francis leaves
versus the legacy that Benedictleft 12, 13 years ago, and how
has it changed?
How has the Roman CatholicChurch changed in the 12, 13
years?
Let's start with you, leonardo.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, to put it simply, Benedict tried to
reinforce the Roman structuresof Roman Catholicism at a time
when they were questioned andeven undermined the moral
authority of the Church, thedoctrinal outlook of the Church,
(12:10):
the Catholic catechism,catholic positioning in global
issues, and so on.
He tried to solidify the Romancharacter of the Roman Catholic
Church.
But his papacy ended upabruptly with the resignation,
(12:32):
and the resignation was a symbolof, in many ways, the failure
of that project.
Francis tried to do theopposite, tried to expand the
Catholicity of Rome, theembracement, the inclusive
nature of Catholic claims andpractices, and downplaying the
(12:55):
Roman outlook of the RomanChurch.
And so I think this comparisonand contrast helps to understand
the difference between the twolegacies One wanting to affirm
the Roman hard core, hard powerof the Catholic Church Catechism
(13:19):
, doctrine, theology, sacramentsand the other one, francis' one
, wanting to instead underlinethe Catholic soul of the
Catholic Church, the motherlyembracing, affirming attitude of
the Church towards all.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It feels, Rachel, as if a Protestant relating with
Catholicism at the end ofBenedict's time is relating to a
very different Catholicism tothe Catholicism at the end of
Francis' time differentCatholicism to the Catholicism
at the end of Francis's time.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I think it's the same Catholicism but different
natures of the church areemphasised.
So in Pope Benedict's reignit's the Roman nature, but never
forgetting the Catholic, theinclusive.
And in Francis's papacy, it isthe Catholic embrace,
brotherhood, come back to Romecall that is emphasised without
ever dropping the Roman-ness.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Francis was a church priest, but it's a pendulum
swing.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
It's a pendulum swing without ever dropping the other
.
The emphases change, and soit's going to be interesting to
see who is next chosen to bePope.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I guess that's the big question is does the
pendulum keep swinging furtherout or does it swing back?
What's your expectation,leonardo?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, I think that Pope Francis came close to the
maximum stretching point,perhaps the breaking point of
the whole system maximumstretching point, perhaps the
breaking point of the wholesystem and in the end he kind of
stopped the process by.
You know, at the end of thesynodal or synodal, the
(15:10):
synodality expectations werehigh that he would then
introduce the ordination ofwomen, or allowing the marriage
of priests, or the blessing ofsame-sex couples, and he stopped
all these things because heunderstood that perhaps these
(15:32):
were over the top and didn'twant to get there.
So in a sense, his final yearwas a signal that he himself had
understood that perhaps he hadoverstretched the process.
And so what is, I think, to beexpected now is a kind of
(15:55):
rebalancing, not going back toRatzinger's hard positions, but
a more balanced Catholictendency, less radical than
Francis's, and taking advantageof the fact that the breaking
(16:18):
point has not been reached.
And so there is a time toreassess and rebalance the
equilibrium.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I felt, Rachel, that it was almost like Francis
wanted to keep pushing, but hecouldn't take the church with
him and so he stopped.
Is that your read?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I think Lois expressed it well.
It is a pendulum swinging andit feels like it did reach as
far as the Roman Catholic Churchcould go.
It's interesting that Francishas appointed a lot of the
cardinals that now sit 75% orsomething 75% of the College of
Cardinals who are of theeligible age under 80, to vote
(17:01):
for the next Pope, to elect thenext Pope, and so there's a
sense that he has shaped theCollege of Cardinals, but I
don't think there's going to beanother Francis straight up.
I think there's going to bejust a little bit of correction.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
I mean that is interesting thatin 12 years you can appoint all
the cardinals.
Well, three quarters of thecardinals who will do the voting
, that just seemed wow, becausemost papacy's are going to go at
least that length of time.
The guy does get effectively tochoose his successor.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, that's right, that's how the system works, and
he's been very active increating new cardinals, to the
point of shaping the wholecollege.
Having said that, there is asaying that those who enter the
conclave as favorite candidatesget out not having been elected
(18:02):
as folks, and so I would be.
I wouldn't miss, I would.
I would be cautious in sayingthat the Preferred candidate by
Francis will necessarily bevoted in.
Con clubs are unique andcomplex events that defy
(18:25):
forecasts and simplisticexpectations, but I agree that
what is to be expected,generally speaking, is a time of
pause, a time of rebalancing, atime of healing, because the
Catholic Church is also verymuch divided.
(18:47):
Francis has left the Churchvery much divided in itself and
there are factions and groupsthat are fighting against each
other, and perhaps a Pope thatis willing to and capable of
bringing reconciliation issomething that is desirable
Leonardo.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
he was nowhere near as strong a theologian as his
predecessor, pope Benedict.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
He has never completed a degree in theology,
never published a theology bookin his lifetime before being
elected as Pope.
So he has been, and he was aJesuit by definition, eclectic
and defined strict and clearcategories.
(19:35):
So, theologically speaking, Ithink while Benedict was an
Augustinian, post-vatican IIressourcement theologian,
francis was a Jesuit with a veryelastic and moving type of
(20:02):
theology, depending onexercising the Jesuit
discernment.
That oftentimes meansevaluating things without having
a principled, without having aprincipled framework to do that,
(20:30):
but adapting to situations andkind of feeling the wind and
following the wind.
And so Francis has been moving,from being taking conservative
positions when he was inArgentina and then becoming more
open on certain things and thenchanging his mind on other
things.
He is being a wave rather thana rock.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And yet he I think people would acknowledge that
he's done a good job on theissue of child sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yes, you're right.
I mean it was in many ways thatwas the situation that he
inherited when Pope Benedictresigned 13 years ago and he
took some initiatives to addressthe issue, at least globally,
(21:20):
then.
Scandals have occurred evenafter Francis, but I think he
tried to address the issue froma canonical and pastoral point
of view, but not eradicating theproblem, but certainly trying
(21:44):
to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I'm just thinking of the Protestant and our battle
with secularism.
It'll be easier for usProtestants to battle secularism
if the Roman Catholic Churchholds creedily against
secularism rather than goes allwoolly woolly.
And so there's a technicaltheological term.
(22:08):
But I guess it would be in theinterests of Protestant faith
and the preaching of a clearChrist to the world that the
more conservative Pope we get,the better.
Do you want to comment?
Agree, disagree.
I'm just flying the kite here.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
It's interesting that this is also the year the
1300th anniversary of theCouncil of Nicaea.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Which we're going to get you both back on in a couple
of weeks' time In person, nextweek, of the Council of Nicaea,
which we're going to get youboth back on in a couple of
weeks' time In person, yeah,next week.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
And so that is very much a call for creedal unity.
But even as we say those wordstogether, I think we need to
have a deeper think about whatwe mean by each of these things.
What do we mean when we confesstogether one holy Catholic
apostolic church?
What do we mean when we sayborn of the virgin mary?
Um, so I think there are greatdifferences even in creedal
(23:03):
unity.
And um, yes, francis was moreflexible, more of a pastoral
pope, someone who lived closerto the people, took the concerns
of the poor of the world, um inhand, but there is a Roman-ness
to him that never quite left.
So he wasn't a heavyweighttheologian, but the one
(23:25):
published work he had prior tobecoming Pope Francis was Luther
the heretic, calvin theschismatic.
So there's never, it's never.
Whatever Pope comes next, hewill be Roman and Catholic.
It is just which one of thoseis more emphasised and to what
degree.
And I think Lael's right, theywill be looking for someone who
(23:48):
is able to heal some of theschisms and divisions within the
Roman Catholic Church itself,because Francis who did push it?
so far.
There are those within thechurch that would love it to
look more Roman again, as it didunder Ratzinger and as it was
pre-Vatican II.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Now, final question Lots of people I'm imagining
will be watching the movieConclave and thinking this is
what's going to happen.
How realistic is the movieConclave to what's actually
going to be happening in termsof the process the next couple
of weeks?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It is realistic in the sense that the Conclave is a
meeting of 130 basically oldmen, and so the Conclave movie
shows that these people wouldtake pills to sleep, with the
pills to after dinner and so on.
(24:48):
So in that sense it wasrealistic.
It was also realistic in the indepicting the so-called
congregations taking placebefore the conclave.
The first one will occurtonight to have all the
cardinals discussing how tohandle the funerals and then the
(25:10):
decisions to be made beforeentering the Sistine Chapel.
And they are.
These meetings are not recorded,there's no one outside of the
group, so the movie depictedthat meeting, those meetings, in
realistic terms.
(25:32):
I don't think that, then, themovie is realistic in depicting
the choice of the candidate, asthe movie tells the story, but
(25:52):
in some ways it is what is to beexpected Having a gathering of
the princes of the church mostof them are old people having
health issues and going throughserious discussions taking place
before the Conclave on what arethe prospects of the church,
(26:17):
what are the problems and who isthe profile that is better
suited to lead the church in thenext phase.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Leonardo Rachel, thanks so much for talking to us
today on the Pastor's Heart.
Leonardo Di Chirico on the linethere from Vatican City and
Rachel Ciano here with me inSydney.
Leonardo, pastor of the Church,richard Dioroma and the
director of the ReformandaInstitute, and Rachel lectures
in Christianity and history atSydney Missionary and Bible
(26:48):
College and is part of thefaculty at the Rome Scholars and
Leaders Network.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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