December 8, 2025 • 38 mins
Tears, Questions and Hope - When a senior pastor takes their own life? Keith Condie & Trinette Stanley
In the last few months two senior evangelical leaders have taken their own lives.
The Archbishop’s letter said ‘It is with deep sadness that I write to inform you of the death of a colleague and friend … who took his own life on Tuesday and our hearts are heavy at this time as we come before God with our tears, questions and … hope in the promise of resurrection.’
We react with a range of questions: Should I have known? Could I have done more? What do I say to the church? What do I say to the world, but most importantly where is God?
Keith Condie, from Anglican Deaconess Ministry’s Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute and Trinette Stanley, Mental Health Educator with Anglicare are our guests.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07):
Where was God?
Suicide and senior leadership.
It is the pastors Haas andDominic Steele.
Our guests today, Keith Condyand Trinette Stanley.
In the last couple of months,two senior evangelical leaders
have taken their own life.
The Archbishop of the relevantdiocese wrote to the clergy of
the death of one of the parishministers.
(01:28):
It is with deep sadness that Iwrite to inform you of the death
of a colleague and friend whotook his own life on Tuesday,
and our hearts are heavy at thistime as we come before God with
our tears, questions, and hopein the promise of the
resurrection.
Lots of us are grappling with awhole range of questions.
(01:50):
He was my colleague, my friend,lecturer, pastor, and somehow he
couldn't manage.
And should I have known?
Could I have known?
Should I have done more?
Could I have done more?
And what do I say, should I sayto others, to the church, to the
non-Christian world, and wherewas God?
There's a whole range ofquestions, and maybe you're
(02:13):
affected, but even if youweren't, I want to encourage you
not to skip this, not to lookaway.
There's a sense that no onewants to talk about this topic
until suddenly we have to, andit is much better to have this
discussion when we're not in themiddle of it.
I've asked two of the smartestpeople I know on this topic to
come and talk today, Keith Condyfrom Anglican Deaconess
(02:34):
Ministries Mental Health andPastoral Care Institute, and
Trinette Stanley, the mentalhealth educator with Anglicare.
Keith, let's start with you.
And I'm just riffing off theArchbishop's letter, and um the
pastor's heart is heavy with uhtears, questions, and hope.
SPEAKER_03 (02:52):
Um, absolutely, Dominic.
Um, my heart's heavy uh inresponse to these situations,
and uh it's devastating.
Suicide is always horrific.
Um, we need to understand that.
And anyone who's had any contactwith anybody who has lost their
life uh knows the rippleeffects.
It spreads, it impacts umimmediate family, of course, but
(03:16):
it goes much wider than that.
And in church communities, um,you know, people know a lot of
people.
And there are a huge number ofpeople that are affected by
events like this, and many,many, many very heavy hearts.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Trinette, this is you're deeply involved in this
kind of stuff all the time.
And yeah, your heart in this.
SPEAKER_04 (03:40):
Yeah, it's been it's been very heavy as well.
Um, I didn't know uh the thegentlemen who have lost their
life just recently, personally,but my heart's still heavy.
Um, particularly when we thinkabout the church as a place of
hope.
How can people in our churchesfeel so hopeless that they think
about suicide?
Um, why are we not talking aboutthis?
(04:02):
Why are we not engaging in aconversation around it?
Where does Jesus fit in all ofthis?
Those questions swirl around.
And I I do spend a lot of timetalking about this, but I've
still got those questions whenwe lose people to suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
I mean, and you've been dealing with um a pastoral
incident in the last few weeksas well, yeah.
Where this has happened.
SPEAKER_04 (04:22):
Yeah, just in this last week, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
Um let's go first to you, Keith.
And how is it different whenwe're talking about the key
leader of a church?
And then I'll ask you the samequestion, Trinidad.
SPEAKER_03 (04:36):
Yeah, I think um we've got a lot of confidence in
our leaders.
We look to our leaders.
Um we want uh as God's people,we we we want shepherding.
We have our Lord Jesus, thegreat shepherd of the sheep, but
uh he and his God in hiskindness has given us under
(04:57):
shepherds.
And those people we do, we lookto them, we expect things of
them, and often we think they'vegot it all together.
And often they communicate thatmessage that they've pretty much
got it all together.
But um senior ministers,ministers, like any other human
being, they're a human being,and uh we've all got our
(05:19):
vulnerabilities, we've all gotour limits, there are things
that we can cope with, there arethings that we we really
struggle to cope with.
And um and and yes, so so Ithink, and I think sometimes uh
in our particular churchcultures, we we expect a lot of
the minister, and the ministerexpects a lot of himself.
(05:40):
And you know, everyone wants tozealously do the Lord's work,
they want to be faithful in thattask, they want to see, you
know, their church grow andthings happen.
And you know, what if they'renot doing it quite so well?
You know, whether it's whetherit's the um their own mental
health, whether it's particularpressures that they're under,
(06:01):
whether um, you know,relationship difficulties and
struggles, there are otherfacts.
Suicide's very, very complex.
There's no simple sort ofexplanations for why this
happens.
And but this swirling around offactors, um, when it does impact
a senior minister and they feellike there's no one they can
turn to, perhaps, or there's noone, you know, speaking to them,
(06:25):
um, caring for them, uh it it itit has the impact that it has on
another human being who isreally feels like they're I've
lost hope.
And um, of course, then therecan be this awful repercussion.
But as I said, uh the I I thinkthe impact can spread further
(06:45):
than it often does with otherpeople who take their life.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
When it's the key leader.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
Yeah, when it's the key leader.
Trinidad.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
Yeah, I think there are certain pressures and
struggles that um people inministry broadly, but senior
ministers um in particular face.
Um, and that's shown in theresearch as well that one of the
highest groups that is at riskof burnout is people in
ministry.
And I think that's because thereis a particular mix of factors
(07:15):
that come into play.
Combine that with the fact thatoften um people in ministry
don't necessarily have a lot ofconfidence or a lot of friends
that they feel that they can bereally vulnerable with because
there is a complexity of workmixed in with life, mixed in
with housing, mixed in withfriendship.
Like it's very complex.
(07:35):
So where do they go?
And and how can someone sharethat they're not perhaps holding
it together?
Because they do have thoseexpectations of themselves, that
they will be the pastor underGod of this flock that has been
entrusted to them.
And that's a that's a heavy loadthat a that a pastor has to
carry.
And if he's trying to carry thatby himself, then it makes sense
(07:58):
that sometimes it it becomes tooheavy.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Um Yeah.
I'm I mean, I thought we mightpush into this by just playing a
little clip from Peter Adam, uh,former senior minister at St.
Jude's in Carlton, formerprincipal of uh Ridley
Theological College.
And uh he and I had aconversation uh a couple of
years ago now, and he talkedabout um uh the struggle of a
(08:27):
senior minister having fewfriends.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yes, I often ask ministers if they have any good
friends, and their reply isusually well, I know lots of
people, we work together.
Um no, I don't suppose I do.
How can we do better at that?
Uh well because you sound likeyou've you've you've made that a
(08:52):
priority over a long time.
I have, or another way of sayingis God has been so generous to
me, and I have ten what I wouldregard as ten really good
friends with whom I can talk perperfectly openly, whom I could
contact at any time of day ornight if I needed to.
And they you know, one of themwould be able to help me at
(09:15):
least.
Yeah.
What's God done with your hearton a on the journey through
depression that that you've beenon?
Yes, I I uh my depression beganin 87.
Uh so it's a long-term issue forme.
Uh when I was first depressed, Iwas suicidal.
Uh I thought God had abandonedme.
(09:37):
And my motive for suicide was Ididn't I don't want to be a
nuisance to people.
For me.
Yeah, exactly.
So it was a very instructivetime for me because I had to
decide.
Oh, and I would think each day Ithought I'd done something like
walk down the street and cutsomebody up.
(09:59):
But I couldn't remember what I'ddone, but I felt that guilt.
So there was this immense guilt,false guilt, it was just awful.
And what I had to decide was, doI believe what I feel about
myself or what the Bible saysabout me?
And that was liberating becauseI decided I'd I'd rule my
(10:20):
perception of myself by theBible, not by my feelings.
Yeah.
So at this point, I don't trustmy heart because my heart is
warped, it's diseased, itdoesn't it doesn't hear some
things, it it distorts things.
And that's a kind of medic it'sa medical problem of my body.
(10:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Not a spiritual problem.
Well that's Peter Adam, formerprincipal of Ridley College, and
he's speaking very vulnerablyabout what's going on in his
heart.
Yours.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
Yeah.
And um I would commend him forthat that vulnerability.
Um we we need that, you know, weneed to actually be able to say,
this is what's going on for me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And I mean, and I feel it in that I come home and
my day has been full ofrelationships and people all
day, and I'm just not lookingfor extra friends.
And yet I probably ought to be.
SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Um, Dominico, I think it comes down to you know
what Peter said about if he's introuble, there's 10 people he
feels like he can call, night orday.
Um, do we have people in ourlife who when we we do are
feeling overwhelmed and whenwe're in trouble, we can reach
out to?
I think that's the key thing.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
10 seems like a lot to me.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
I think 10 seems like I I don't have 10 people
like that in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah, I don't think I do either.
SPEAKER_03 (11:45):
But I I certainly have some.
And um, and to me that's very,very important and very
significant.
And uh those friends mean a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
And I'm imagining, particularly I mean, if you're
in a church where if you're likethere's really complex politics,
yes, and you're not feeling likeyou can be vulnerable with the
(12:37):
people in your church, then Imean, in my situation, I've been
here for a long time, there's alot of goodwill, and I've got
some really good friends here,but many people are not in that
situation.
SPEAKER_03 (12:49):
Yes, and and but I just want to say I think we need
we need those people we canreach out to.
unknown (12:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:56):
Because we're built for relationships with each
other.
And I think sometimes thepastor, the minister, is always
(13:33):
giving in relationship, andthat's right and that's proper.
But who are the people who cangive to the pastor in
relationship?
Who are those people that youknow have always got your back?
Who are those people that youcan turn to and be completely
honest with and know thatthere's going to be no judgment,
no condemnation, there's gonnabe space held for all of those
(13:56):
things that you need to say thatneed to be voiced in order that
they be processed.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
I feel like, I mean, I'm I'm looking for you to help
me understand this.
On the one hand, my theologysays we as a local church should
be working together to encourageeach other in Christ, and the
other elders of the local churchshould be standing with the paid
pastor to support and care forhim.
And yet I do think there'sprobably another thing going on
(14:25):
of we pay him to have his acttogether to serve us.
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Yeah, I think it this is very complex.
It is, and I I agree.
I I I want to see the localchurch operate like that, where
you know, the ministry is partof this community where it's
genuine one-another ministrywhere he's not just the one
constantly giving, but he's alsoreceiving in that context.
Um, it ought to be like that.
And you know, it sounds like asyou said, you you know, you've
(14:52):
got some god goodwill and peopleare there and they're gonna help
you and support you.
But um, but sometimes, you know,this very complex church
situation, politics, whateverelse going on, and maybe it's
people outside of that contextwho who are needed for
particular periods of time.
SPEAKER_04 (15:11):
And potentially in smaller churches as well, it's
not just politics, it's familyrelations.
You know, there might be thesenior minister who has a
brother-in-law who's a warden,or who has other members who are
on parish council or or otherkey members of the church.
And so can we openly discusseverything, or should we openly
(15:32):
discuss everything?
Yes, how do these other dynamicscome to play as well?
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
And I don't think vulnerability means you share
everything about what's going onfor you with everybody.
It's it's not that it's um it'syou know, there's an
appropriateness because thebecause the you know, the
shepherd of the flock is is amodel of Christian life, setting
(15:58):
an example of godly living, um,you know, there are some things
that are not appropriate, youknow, to be completely open
about with everybody.
But are there some people whoyou know when those those those
times when you're not doing sowell, there is someone that you
(16:18):
can reach out to who um will whowill have you back, as Trinette
says.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Peter was vulnerable in that exchange there.
I um I remember in the wake ofthe court case that I went
through in 2008, 9, and um andwe had a quite difficult season
here domestically as well inthis church.
And I walked up to ParramattaRoad and I was standing at the
(16:44):
traffic lights and a bus zoomedpast and missed me by that much.
And I remember thinking, Oh,that's a shame.
Um, in terms of it would have itwould have been an accident, it
wouldn't have been a sin, do youknow?
Um, but all my problems wouldhave been solved, and and that
to to to live as Christ, to dieas gain, to be better, to go to
(17:07):
heaven and all that kind ofthing.
And and I was oh, I'm not in agood place at the moment if I'm
thinking like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:14):
Do you want to Yeah, and and and and clearly, you
know, that was that was a veryhard time.
And and this is the thing aboutthe Christian hope is I've had
people say to me, I just want togo home.
I want to be with all this.
It's too hard.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:31):
And the thing about suicide is it's not that people
want to die, they want to escapethat pain.
They want to get away from that.
It's just it's too overwhelming,and they think this is the the
only option.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
Um, I'm glad that you there's a bus missed, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
I'm glad that you, yeah, you know, step back from
that bus.
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
The reality is sorry, it wasn't stepping
forward for the bus.
It was just I was just crossingthe road.
SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
You know, but no, no, I appreciate that, but I'm
I'm I'm I'm very glad that itdid miss, Dominic.
13%, about 13% of thepopulation, the Australian
population, in their lifetimewill have significant, like
serious suicidal thoughts.
So this is not uncommon.
Um, not an uncommon thing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
And so I mean Peter Adams is quite usual at that
point.
Yeah.
So keep going.
SPEAKER_04 (18:16):
I was gonna say that in the depth of crisis, when you
are feeling like that, yourthinking becomes really
constricted as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (18:24):
And so, and we know, do we not, that Satan is the
father of lies.
So Satan will then start to giveus some thoughts that aren't
actually true.
So perhaps it's actually betterif I'm not here because I would
be less of a burden to myfamily.
Perhaps I'm not able to passermy flock as well as I should.
So if I take myself out of thepicture, then someone else can
(18:47):
passer them through this.
I'm, you know, though those kindof thoughts, because our
thinking becomes stricted,constricted, that those thoughts
then become really large in ourframe.
And we need to be on guardagainst that.
The best way that we can be onguard against that is to have
trusted people who can speaktruth and hope into our lives.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah.
I mean, if we can't think backto what Peter Adams said, I need
to listen to the scriptures, notto what's going on.
You want to what what do thescriptures teach me?
unknown (19:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
Well, the you know, the scriptures teach us that as
Peter said, um, I'm a belovedchild of God.
This is who I am.
Um, it's not about myperformance.
It's not how well my churchgrows, how successful my
ministry is.
These are not the things thatdefine me.
Although there is a lot ofpressure to allow those things
(19:38):
to define us.
And so going back to thescriptures and and and really
allowing those truths and thefact, the fact that God is with
us in in the midst, that he'sclose to the brokenhearted in
the midst of our difficulties,he is not removed from that.
Um these are wonderful truthsthat I think trying to allow
(19:59):
them to impinge upon ourconsciousness.
But as you say, when we're inthat dark place, it's very, very
hard.
And we need we need thoseoutside voices reminding us of
the truth of the scriptures.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Trinette, you go in and help churches in the wake of
uh a terrible moment like this.
What's the advice that you giveat this point?
And then we're we're going toapply it to senior ministers in
a moment and what the variation,what's the general advice, you
know, that that you've beengiving this week, if you like?
SPEAKER_04 (20:31):
Yeah.
Um the temptation, I mean,there's lots of things that we
could say, but I think um whatthe witness that scripture gives
us is that we are embodiedbeings with emotions.
And so in the aftermath of anevent like this, we have to
create an appropriate time andspace for all those emotions to
(20:54):
be heard, to be spoken, um, tobe felt.
So are you angry?
That's fine.
That's a normal response.
Are you upset?
Are you confused?
Do you have questions?
All of those are normalresponses.
And we need to be careful thatwe don't move too quickly from
those responses.
We need to, we need to sit inthat.
(21:14):
We need to hold um the weight ofthose responses in the
aftermath.
I think of Psalm 13 of KingDavid.
He spends two-thirds of hispsalm crying out to God, asking
for help, asking, why?
Why is this happening?
You've brought me to this point,God, why is it happening?
And then in the end, he says,But I know that you're good.
(21:37):
I know that you are with me.
I know that this is purposeful.
Sometimes I think in theaftermath of events, we try and
move to the God is good piecetoo quickly.
But I think there's a reallyimportant piece that we sit in
all the confusion of the momentbecause it is really confusing.
It's heartbreaking, it'sdevastating.
Let's feel that together.
(21:58):
As a community of God's people,then when the time is right, we
then hold hope for the communityof God's people together as
well.
So I can't remember what yourquestion is, but I think in the
aftermath of a devastating eventlike this, we do need to allow
space for all of those emotionsand all of those questions.
(22:19):
I think we also need to be veryaware, like Keith said, 13% of
the Australian population makeserious thoughts of suicide.
So there will be other people inour churches who are wrestling
with mental ill health, who areperhaps wrestling with thoughts
of suicide.
How do we care for them in thismoment as well?
And I don't think there's anyone particular way that we can
(22:41):
do that, but being aware thatthere will be people in our
congregations, in our networkswho find this particularly hard
because of their own experience,we need to be aware of caring
for them.
The research shows that there isat least 135 people who are
significantly impacted by everydeath by suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (23:05):
And I would have thought more in a church
community where the networks aretighter.
SPEAKER_04 (23:08):
Absolutely.
Even more so when it is one ofthe senior leaders as well.
And perhaps has been pastoringfive, six, seven, like who knows
how many people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:32):
Yes.
And a number of times in thatsermon I heard you say, if
you're struggling, reach out.
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
Yes.
I think that's really importantthat we all hear this message.
If you're in trouble, pleasereach out.
At the same time, we need toreach out to those who we're
concerned about.
And um uh lots of people thinkyou can never ask the suicide
(23:59):
question.
You'll just put the idea insomeone's head.
The research says the oppositethat if you have concern for
somebody to say, have you hadany thoughts of taking your
life?
Um, and as Trinette said, in theaftermath of a suicide, it's
actually a risk period forothers.
So this is this is when we we weneed to be, you know, it's a
(24:23):
scary question to ask for mostof us, but being prepared to ask
that question can save lives.
The reality is um the nearlyevery single person is
ambivalent about taking theirlife.
By that I mean they have reasonsto live as well as the reasons
that they think they they wantto die.
(24:44):
And tapping into thatambivalence and the reasons for
them to continue living and umaspects of hope, trying to
re-engage hope in them, that's areally important thing to do.
So asking that question, ifyou're terrified about asking
the question, and you know whatif they say yes, and they do say
(25:04):
yes, um, you can always ringLifeline together.
One, three, one, one, one, four.
Say, okay, we're gonna callLifeline and we're gonna talk to
them, and they'll help us workout what to do from here.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
I mean, what you're talking about is if you're like
tackling the issue head on inpersonal conversation.
Yes.
What about facing the issue headon in public?
Um, let's go to you first,Trinette.
Uh in in the in the in thefuneral or in an announcement at
church, or I mean even the waythe archbishop here has been
(25:41):
quite frank and honest in his uhad clericum letter to the clergy
of his diocese.
SPEAKER_04 (25:49):
I think I mean from my perspective, Keith, you can
correct me if I'm off the mark.
I think it I think there is atime and a place and an
appropriateness to acknowledgethat this is a suicide death.
Um I don't think it'sappropriate nor helpful to
discuss how a person took theirlife, but to discuss the fact
(26:09):
that there was a hopelessnessthat they felt that that suicide
was the answer to.
There's an appropriateness tothat because there is a realness
into doing life together wherewe have to acknowledge that life
is hard.
You know, Jesus says, you know,come if you follow me, life is
going to be hard for one reasonor another.
(26:31):
Um, and God doesn't save us andthen send us on our own journey.
He saves us, puts us incommunity so that we can run the
race together.
And so acknowledging that thatthis is a suicide, that other
people might be feeling that, Ithink there's an appropriate
appropriateness to that.
Um, we need to talk about theperson as well.
(26:52):
Sometimes in um in grief, wefeel like, oh, we shouldn't
bring this person up, or weshouldn't mention this, or we
shouldn't talk about them.
But there's actually somethingreally um healing when we do
talk about the person, what theymeant to us, um, who they were,
funny stories.
I I had um it wasn't suicide,but I had my brother-in-law pass
(27:15):
away late last year.
And in between our, in betweenhim passing and the funeral, we
spent a lot of time tellingsilly stories about him.
And I think that actuallyhonored his memory because he
lived a life.
He had a wife, children.
Those stories that we tell andthat we remind each other of is
(27:36):
really important.
I just I said to someone justthis morning um after the
suicide death of someone lastweek, uh, she was just like, Oh,
we keep on keeping on.
And I was like, Yes, but it'salso okay not to, because it
honors that person's memory whenwe grieve them well because they
meant a lot to you.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (27:55):
And so, yes, we do like time doesn't stop.
For the family, it definitelyfeels like it stops.
Yes, but time doesn't stop, andwe need to create space where we
honor that person, we talk aboutthat person because they were a
person, they were connected inour communities.
We need to mourn that, we needto talk about them as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah, keep the public in it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
Yeah, I think I'd say um I I agree, Trinette.
I think let's be as open aspossible.
I suppose the caveat I would putis um there's times for the sake
of family, um, young children,where what parents, for example,
might want to communicate totheir children public
announcements.
(28:39):
Uh, that's not the we've justgot to take that into account.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:43):
I think in terms of what's said publicly.
But overall, this is it does nothelp to have this as a taboo
subject.
And I think in our Christiancommunities, as much as
possible, let's let's be as openas is appropriate for the
particular occasion and context.
Um, a uh an archbishop writingto his clergy explaining the
(29:06):
exact nature.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
That's a good letter.
SPEAKER_03 (29:08):
I think that's a very good letter.
Yeah.
I think that's entirelyappropriate.
But um, but yeah.
But there's I think there aresome contexts where there are
sensitivities involved that weneed to recognise.
So there's there's wisdom here,I think.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
I'm I'm just thinking, I mean, we would say
that the gospel is at, if youlike, its strongest point um in
the midst of suffering and andactually by the edge of the
grave.
Do you know?
And so uh to actually show thateven in this terrible moment,
the gospel has a has a hassomething to say that other
(29:44):
worldviews don't.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
So powerfully end of Romans 8.
That list of things that cannotseparate us from the love of
Christ.
Uh depends on your thetranslation you read.
Trouble could be translateddistress, psychological distress
is in in view here.
Psychological distress does notseparate us from the love of
Christ.
Um, death does not separate usfrom the love of Christ.
(30:07):
Uh suicide is not theunforgivable sin, but we must
not send the message that thisis this is a via this is a good
option.
It is not.
It is not, it's the wrong thingto do.
But people, as Trinetta said,people find themselves in very
desperate situations, theirthinking is narrowed, they are
not thinking clearly, um, andnot thinking with their right
(30:30):
mind.
They're not thinking with theirright mind.
And they do something that umyeah that causes huge
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Yeah.
What about the the aftermath?
Because I'm imagining that um inthe Christian communities where
this has happened and it's beena senior leader, it's gonna it's
a long journey.
SPEAKER_04 (30:56):
It is a long journey with lots of unanswered
questions that perhaps willnever be answered.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:03):
Um, and that's really difficult.
And I think I'll go back to theimportance of working this
through, like journeying throughthis together as a community of
God's people.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (31:16):
Um there is a a time and a place where perhaps we all
lose hope, and so we need thecommunity of God's people to
carry that hope for us when wecan't carry it ourselves.
Um, there is a time and a placewhere we carry each other, or as
Paul talks about in Galatians 6,we bear each other's burdens.
Um we we I think we need to dothis together.
(31:40):
Um, and there will be times whenpeople in the church can do that
more than others, but that's thebeauty of being in a church that
we are working together.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Some will be up, some will be down.
Um, those who are doing bettercan get alongside those who are
really struggling.
And this comes in waves, it'sups and downs, and it's this is
not a straightforwardtrajectory.
SPEAKER_04 (32:01):
Um, and there's also no time frame.
SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
There's no time frame.
Um But but there are there arethere are profound biblical
truths in the midst that God iswith us in the midst of this,
and you know, we don't jumpquickly to trite answers, we let
people experience the depth ofwhat they're going through.
There is real lament in thissituation, but um, but yes,
(32:26):
there is that time and placewhere the reminders of of God
being with us through these darkvalleys, um we need that message
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
In the beginning, I raised the question, I'm gonna
put it to you now.
Um, I'm imagining people aregoing to be thinking, should I
have known?
Could I have known?
Should I have done more?
Should I have pushed in more?
And having thoughts and feelingsof guilt.
Yeah, Trinette.
SPEAKER_04 (32:53):
Yeah, like I said, there will always be questions
after an event like this, andand some of those questions are
right and proper to ask.
Um I think I would say it'sunfair of us to be holding
ourselves to account for thingsthat we should have done if we
(33:17):
didn't know.
So if we've got someone in ourlife who has died by suicide and
we didn't pick up on the warningsigns, how do we know to ask?
Perhaps those signs weren'tclear for us.
So we need to be gentle withourselves in in these questions
and these ponderings as well.
Um we also do we shouldn't holdourselves to account, our past
(33:41):
selves to account with what wenow know.
So Keith has shared with us, youknow, asking the question about
suicide is right and proper andhelpful.
If we didn't know that before,if we thought we would actually
be doing harm before, then wecan't hold past self to account
for what we now know.
Um and the good news about God'sgrace is that it is
(34:04):
all-encompassing.
So if we are feeling guilt ordistress about those things,
God's grace is big enough forthat as well.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
I mean, that's very helpful.
I mean, that in the way that Ithink back of all sorts of sins
and errors in my past that arecovered by the blood of Jesus,
yeah.
Then this one too, this pastoralif if it is a pastoral fail,
then it is too covered by the bythe blood of Jesus.
SPEAKER_04 (34:28):
Absolutely.
And in God's grace, then nexttime we know a little bit more.
Next time perhaps we'll be a bitmore confident to ask that
question, to come alongside, tobe a bit more vulnerable.
Yes, Keith.
SPEAKER_03 (34:38):
And when you say, you know, could I have done
more?
I've I feel like that with allof my life.
unknown (34:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
There's so many aspects of my life.
I could have done more.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
Um and we would say in Christian ministry, I just
look at every aspect of thischurch and I think there's more
that needs to be done here, andthere's more that needs to be
done there, and there's morethat there's more that needs to
be done every area of thischurch.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
And again, sometimes in those situations, the guilt
feelings will be there.
And yes, let's acknowledge that,and we might need to sit in
that, and that might take someprocessing and some time, and it
might, you know, it might goaway for a while and then come
back again.
That's that's okay.
But again, let's let biblicaltruth speak into this that God's
(35:19):
grace is there, God understandsour failings, our imperfections,
and um there is a time when weappropriately can say, okay, I
might have made a mistake, butthis is now in the Lord's hands,
and I I I can let it go.
SPEAKER_04 (35:38):
I think it's really important to remember that in
those as well, God doesn't holdus at arm's distance.
No.
He actually comes to us, he isdrawn to us in our distress, in
our grief, in our guilt.
He's not he's not going, oh, youshould have done better.
He's going, it's okay.
I got this, I'm here with you inthis.
And we need to rest in in thetenderness and the compassion of
(36:02):
Jesus in those moments.
Yeah.
unknown (36:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:06):
Keith, I'm imagining that there are people with us
who have um uh just been throughcaring for people and caring
about uh people and are in allsorts of moments on the grief
cycle.
Um uh there are people who arein close family situations um
(36:27):
who are watching or listening tothis program at the moment.
Why don't you lead in prayer umfor those people, but also for
the person who's just findingit, the senior leader who's just
finding it really hard at themoment.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah, I'd love to do that.
Let me pray.
Our gracious God and lovingheavenly Father, we do thank you
that you are the God who caresfor the brokenhearted, who draws
near to us in our weakness, uhin our pain, in our grief, in
our despair.
Father, you don't turn yourback, but you come close.
(37:02):
And Father, I just pray that youwould draw near to those who
feel overwhelmed or distressedin um some way at the moment due
to the impact of loss upon them.
Or for those ministers uh whoare listening who are just
finding things really hard.
(37:23):
Father, please be our rock, ourrefuge, our strength.
Father, for those of us who aredoing okay, please give us eyes
to see need around us and to bewilling uh to seek to to reach
out and um ask questions andprovide support where we can.
(37:44):
And Father, we if we are reallystruggling, please help us to be
willing to have a conversation.
And thank you, Father, that inour Lord Jesus our hope is
strong, steadfast and sure, andthat nothing can separate us
from your love shown to us inour precious Lord Jesus Christ.
(38:05):
And we pray in his name.
Amen.
Amen.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
Trinette Stanley has been my guest, mental health
educator with Anglicare, alongwith Keith Condy from the
Anglican Deaconess MinistriesMental Health and Pastoral Care
Institute.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Where was God?
Suicide and senior leadership.
It is the pastors Haas andDominic Steele.
Our guests today, Keith Condyand Trinette Stanley.
In the last couple of months,two senior evangelical leaders
have taken their own life.
The Archbishop of the relevantdiocese wrote to the clergy of
the death of one of the parishministers.
(01:28):
It is with deep sadness that Iwrite to inform you of the death
of a colleague and friend whotook his own life on Tuesday,
and our hearts are heavy at thistime as we come before God with
our tears, questions, and hopein the promise of the
resurrection.
Lots of us are grappling with awhole range of questions.
(01:50):
He was my colleague, my friend,lecturer, pastor, and somehow he
couldn't manage.
And should I have known?
Could I have known?
Should I have done more?
Could I have done more?
And what do I say, should I sayto others, to the church, to the
non-Christian world, and wherewas God?
There's a whole range ofquestions, and maybe you're
(02:13):
affected, but even if youweren't, I want to encourage you
not to skip this, not to lookaway.
There's a sense that no onewants to talk about this topic
until suddenly we have to, andit is much better to have this
discussion when we're not in themiddle of it.
I've asked two of the smartestpeople I know on this topic to
come and talk today, Keith Condyfrom Anglican Deaconess
(02:34):
Ministries Mental Health andPastoral Care Institute, and
Trinette Stanley, the mentalhealth educator with Anglicare.
Keith, let's start with you.
And I'm just riffing off theArchbishop's letter, and um the
pastor's heart is heavy with uhtears, questions, and hope.
SPEAKER_03 (02:52):
Um, absolutely, Dominic.
Um, my heart's heavy uh inresponse to these situations,
and uh it's devastating.
Suicide is always horrific.
Um, we need to understand that.
And anyone who's had any contactwith anybody who has lost their
life uh knows the rippleeffects.
It spreads, it impacts umimmediate family, of course, but
(03:16):
it goes much wider than that.
And in church communities, um,you know, people know a lot of
people.
And there are a huge number ofpeople that are affected by
events like this, and many,many, many very heavy hearts.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Trinette, this is you're deeply involved in this
kind of stuff all the time.
And yeah, your heart in this.
SPEAKER_04 (03:40):
Yeah, it's been it's been very heavy as well.
Um, I didn't know uh the thegentlemen who have lost their
life just recently, personally,but my heart's still heavy.
Um, particularly when we thinkabout the church as a place of
hope.
How can people in our churchesfeel so hopeless that they think
about suicide?
Um, why are we not talking aboutthis?
(04:02):
Why are we not engaging in aconversation around it?
Where does Jesus fit in all ofthis?
Those questions swirl around.
And I I do spend a lot of timetalking about this, but I've
still got those questions whenwe lose people to suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
I mean, and you've been dealing with um a pastoral
incident in the last few weeksas well, yeah.
Where this has happened.
SPEAKER_04 (04:22):
Yeah, just in this last week, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
Um let's go first to you, Keith.
And how is it different whenwe're talking about the key
leader of a church?
And then I'll ask you the samequestion, Trinidad.
SPEAKER_03 (04:36):
Yeah, I think um we've got a lot of confidence in
our leaders.
We look to our leaders.
Um we want uh as God's people,we we we want shepherding.
We have our Lord Jesus, thegreat shepherd of the sheep, but
uh he and his God in hiskindness has given us under
(04:57):
shepherds.
And those people we do, we lookto them, we expect things of
them, and often we think they'vegot it all together.
And often they communicate thatmessage that they've pretty much
got it all together.
But um senior ministers,ministers, like any other human
being, they're a human being,and uh we've all got our
(05:19):
vulnerabilities, we've all gotour limits, there are things
that we can cope with, there arethings that we we really
struggle to cope with.
And um and and yes, so so Ithink, and I think sometimes uh
in our particular churchcultures, we we expect a lot of
the minister, and the ministerexpects a lot of himself.
(05:40):
And you know, everyone wants tozealously do the Lord's work,
they want to be faithful in thattask, they want to see, you
know, their church grow andthings happen.
And you know, what if they'renot doing it quite so well?
You know, whether it's whetherit's the um their own mental
health, whether it's particularpressures that they're under,
(06:01):
whether um, you know,relationship difficulties and
struggles, there are otherfacts.
Suicide's very, very complex.
There's no simple sort ofexplanations for why this
happens.
And but this swirling around offactors, um, when it does impact
a senior minister and they feellike there's no one they can
turn to, perhaps, or there's noone, you know, speaking to them,
(06:25):
um, caring for them, uh it it itit has the impact that it has on
another human being who isreally feels like they're I've
lost hope.
And um, of course, then therecan be this awful repercussion.
But as I said, uh the I I thinkthe impact can spread further
(06:45):
than it often does with otherpeople who take their life.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
When it's the key leader.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
Yeah, when it's the key leader.
Trinidad.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
Yeah, I think there are certain pressures and
struggles that um people inministry broadly, but senior
ministers um in particular face.
Um, and that's shown in theresearch as well that one of the
highest groups that is at riskof burnout is people in
ministry.
And I think that's because thereis a particular mix of factors
(07:15):
that come into play.
Combine that with the fact thatoften um people in ministry
don't necessarily have a lot ofconfidence or a lot of friends
that they feel that they can bereally vulnerable with because
there is a complexity of workmixed in with life, mixed in
with housing, mixed in withfriendship.
Like it's very complex.
(07:35):
So where do they go?
And and how can someone sharethat they're not perhaps holding
it together?
Because they do have thoseexpectations of themselves, that
they will be the pastor underGod of this flock that has been
entrusted to them.
And that's a that's a heavy loadthat a that a pastor has to
carry.
And if he's trying to carry thatby himself, then it makes sense
(07:58):
that sometimes it it becomes tooheavy.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Um Yeah.
I'm I mean, I thought we mightpush into this by just playing a
little clip from Peter Adam, uh,former senior minister at St.
Jude's in Carlton, formerprincipal of uh Ridley
Theological College.
And uh he and I had aconversation uh a couple of
years ago now, and he talkedabout um uh the struggle of a
(08:27):
senior minister having fewfriends.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yes, I often ask ministers if they have any good
friends, and their reply isusually well, I know lots of
people, we work together.
Um no, I don't suppose I do.
How can we do better at that?
Uh well because you sound likeyou've you've you've made that a
(08:52):
priority over a long time.
I have, or another way of sayingis God has been so generous to
me, and I have ten what I wouldregard as ten really good
friends with whom I can talk perperfectly openly, whom I could
contact at any time of day ornight if I needed to.
And they you know, one of themwould be able to help me at
(09:15):
least.
Yeah.
What's God done with your hearton a on the journey through
depression that that you've beenon?
Yes, I I uh my depression beganin 87.
Uh so it's a long-term issue forme.
Uh when I was first depressed, Iwas suicidal.
Uh I thought God had abandonedme.
(09:37):
And my motive for suicide was Ididn't I don't want to be a
nuisance to people.
For me.
Yeah, exactly.
So it was a very instructivetime for me because I had to
decide.
Oh, and I would think each day Ithought I'd done something like
walk down the street and cutsomebody up.
(09:59):
But I couldn't remember what I'ddone, but I felt that guilt.
So there was this immense guilt,false guilt, it was just awful.
And what I had to decide was, doI believe what I feel about
myself or what the Bible saysabout me?
And that was liberating becauseI decided I'd I'd rule my
(10:20):
perception of myself by theBible, not by my feelings.
Yeah.
So at this point, I don't trustmy heart because my heart is
warped, it's diseased, itdoesn't it doesn't hear some
things, it it distorts things.
And that's a kind of medic it'sa medical problem of my body.
(10:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Not a spiritual problem.
Well that's Peter Adam, formerprincipal of Ridley College, and
he's speaking very vulnerablyabout what's going on in his
heart.
Yours.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
Yeah.
And um I would commend him forthat that vulnerability.
Um we we need that, you know, weneed to actually be able to say,
this is what's going on for me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And I mean, and I feel it in that I come home and
my day has been full ofrelationships and people all
day, and I'm just not lookingfor extra friends.
And yet I probably ought to be.
SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Um, Dominico, I think it comes down to you know
what Peter said about if he's introuble, there's 10 people he
feels like he can call, night orday.
Um, do we have people in ourlife who when we we do are
feeling overwhelmed and whenwe're in trouble, we can reach
out to?
I think that's the key thing.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
10 seems like a lot to me.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
I think 10 seems like I I don't have 10 people
like that in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah, I don't think I do either.
SPEAKER_03 (11:45):
But I I certainly have some.
And um, and to me that's very,very important and very
significant.
And uh those friends mean a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
And I'm imagining, particularly I mean, if you're
in a church where if you're likethere's really complex politics,
yes, and you're not feeling likeyou can be vulnerable with the
(12:37):
people in your church, then Imean, in my situation, I've been
here for a long time, there's alot of goodwill, and I've got
some really good friends here,but many people are not in that
situation.
SPEAKER_03 (12:49):
Yes, and and but I just want to say I think we need
we need those people we canreach out to.
unknown (12:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:56):
Because we're built for relationships with each
other.
And I think sometimes thepastor, the minister, is always
(13:33):
giving in relationship, andthat's right and that's proper.
But who are the people who cangive to the pastor in
relationship?
Who are those people that youknow have always got your back?
Who are those people that youcan turn to and be completely
honest with and know thatthere's going to be no judgment,
no condemnation, there's gonnabe space held for all of those
(13:56):
things that you need to say thatneed to be voiced in order that
they be processed.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
I feel like, I mean, I'm I'm looking for you to help
me understand this.
On the one hand, my theologysays we as a local church should
be working together to encourageeach other in Christ, and the
other elders of the local churchshould be standing with the paid
pastor to support and care forhim.
And yet I do think there'sprobably another thing going on
(14:25):
of we pay him to have his acttogether to serve us.
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Yeah, I think it this is very complex.
It is, and I I agree.
I I I want to see the localchurch operate like that, where
you know, the ministry is partof this community where it's
genuine one-another ministrywhere he's not just the one
constantly giving, but he's alsoreceiving in that context.
Um, it ought to be like that.
And you know, it sounds like asyou said, you you know, you've
(14:52):
got some god goodwill and peopleare there and they're gonna help
you and support you.
But um, but sometimes, you know,this very complex church
situation, politics, whateverelse going on, and maybe it's
people outside of that contextwho who are needed for
particular periods of time.
SPEAKER_04 (15:11):
And potentially in smaller churches as well, it's
not just politics, it's familyrelations.
You know, there might be thesenior minister who has a
brother-in-law who's a warden,or who has other members who are
on parish council or or otherkey members of the church.
And so can we openly discusseverything, or should we openly
(15:32):
discuss everything?
Yes, how do these other dynamicscome to play as well?
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
And I don't think vulnerability means you share
everything about what's going onfor you with everybody.
It's it's not that it's um it'syou know, there's an
appropriateness because thebecause the you know, the
shepherd of the flock is is amodel of Christian life, setting
(15:58):
an example of godly living, um,you know, there are some things
that are not appropriate, youknow, to be completely open
about with everybody.
But are there some people whoyou know when those those those
times when you're not doing sowell, there is someone that you
(16:18):
can reach out to who um will whowill have you back, as Trinette
says.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Peter was vulnerable in that exchange there.
I um I remember in the wake ofthe court case that I went
through in 2008, 9, and um andwe had a quite difficult season
here domestically as well inthis church.
And I walked up to ParramattaRoad and I was standing at the
(16:44):
traffic lights and a bus zoomedpast and missed me by that much.
And I remember thinking, Oh,that's a shame.
Um, in terms of it would have itwould have been an accident, it
wouldn't have been a sin, do youknow?
Um, but all my problems wouldhave been solved, and and that
to to to live as Christ, to dieas gain, to be better, to go to
(17:07):
heaven and all that kind ofthing.
And and I was oh, I'm not in agood place at the moment if I'm
thinking like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:14):
Do you want to Yeah, and and and and clearly, you
know, that was that was a veryhard time.
And and this is the thing aboutthe Christian hope is I've had
people say to me, I just want togo home.
I want to be with all this.
It's too hard.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:31):
And the thing about suicide is it's not that people
want to die, they want to escapethat pain.
They want to get away from that.
It's just it's too overwhelming,and they think this is the the
only option.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
Um, I'm glad that you there's a bus missed, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
I'm glad that you, yeah, you know, step back from
that bus.
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
The reality is sorry, it wasn't stepping
forward for the bus.
It was just I was just crossingthe road.
SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
You know, but no, no, I appreciate that, but I'm
I'm I'm I'm very glad that itdid miss, Dominic.
13%, about 13% of thepopulation, the Australian
population, in their lifetimewill have significant, like
serious suicidal thoughts.
So this is not uncommon.
Um, not an uncommon thing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
And so I mean Peter Adams is quite usual at that
point.
Yeah.
So keep going.
SPEAKER_04 (18:16):
I was gonna say that in the depth of crisis, when you
are feeling like that, yourthinking becomes really
constricted as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (18:24):
And so, and we know, do we not, that Satan is the
father of lies.
So Satan will then start to giveus some thoughts that aren't
actually true.
So perhaps it's actually betterif I'm not here because I would
be less of a burden to myfamily.
Perhaps I'm not able to passermy flock as well as I should.
So if I take myself out of thepicture, then someone else can
(18:47):
passer them through this.
I'm, you know, though those kindof thoughts, because our
thinking becomes stricted,constricted, that those thoughts
then become really large in ourframe.
And we need to be on guardagainst that.
The best way that we can be onguard against that is to have
trusted people who can speaktruth and hope into our lives.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah.
I mean, if we can't think backto what Peter Adams said, I need
to listen to the scriptures, notto what's going on.
You want to what what do thescriptures teach me?
unknown (19:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
Well, the you know, the scriptures teach us that as
Peter said, um, I'm a belovedchild of God.
This is who I am.
Um, it's not about myperformance.
It's not how well my churchgrows, how successful my
ministry is.
These are not the things thatdefine me.
Although there is a lot ofpressure to allow those things
(19:38):
to define us.
And so going back to thescriptures and and and really
allowing those truths and thefact, the fact that God is with
us in in the midst, that he'sclose to the brokenhearted in
the midst of our difficulties,he is not removed from that.
Um these are wonderful truthsthat I think trying to allow
(19:59):
them to impinge upon ourconsciousness.
But as you say, when we're inthat dark place, it's very, very
hard.
And we need we need thoseoutside voices reminding us of
the truth of the scriptures.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Trinette, you go in and help churches in the wake of
uh a terrible moment like this.
What's the advice that you giveat this point?
And then we're we're going toapply it to senior ministers in
a moment and what the variation,what's the general advice, you
know, that that you've beengiving this week, if you like?
SPEAKER_04 (20:31):
Yeah.
Um the temptation, I mean,there's lots of things that we
could say, but I think um whatthe witness that scripture gives
us is that we are embodiedbeings with emotions.
And so in the aftermath of anevent like this, we have to
create an appropriate time andspace for all those emotions to
(20:54):
be heard, to be spoken, um, tobe felt.
So are you angry?
That's fine.
That's a normal response.
Are you upset?
Are you confused?
Do you have questions?
All of those are normalresponses.
And we need to be careful thatwe don't move too quickly from
those responses.
We need to, we need to sit inthat.
(21:14):
We need to hold um the weight ofthose responses in the
aftermath.
I think of Psalm 13 of KingDavid.
He spends two-thirds of hispsalm crying out to God, asking
for help, asking, why?
Why is this happening?
You've brought me to this point,God, why is it happening?
And then in the end, he says,But I know that you're good.
(21:37):
I know that you are with me.
I know that this is purposeful.
Sometimes I think in theaftermath of events, we try and
move to the God is good piecetoo quickly.
But I think there's a reallyimportant piece that we sit in
all the confusion of the momentbecause it is really confusing.
It's heartbreaking, it'sdevastating.
Let's feel that together.
(21:58):
As a community of God's people,then when the time is right, we
then hold hope for the communityof God's people together as
well.
So I can't remember what yourquestion is, but I think in the
aftermath of a devastating eventlike this, we do need to allow
space for all of those emotionsand all of those questions.
(22:19):
I think we also need to be veryaware, like Keith said, 13% of
the Australian population makeserious thoughts of suicide.
So there will be other people inour churches who are wrestling
with mental ill health, who areperhaps wrestling with thoughts
of suicide.
How do we care for them in thismoment as well?
And I don't think there's anyone particular way that we can
(22:41):
do that, but being aware thatthere will be people in our
congregations, in our networkswho find this particularly hard
because of their own experience,we need to be aware of caring
for them.
The research shows that there isat least 135 people who are
significantly impacted by everydeath by suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (23:05):
And I would have thought more in a church
community where the networks aretighter.
SPEAKER_04 (23:08):
Absolutely.
Even more so when it is one ofthe senior leaders as well.
And perhaps has been pastoringfive, six, seven, like who knows
how many people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:32):
Yes.
And a number of times in thatsermon I heard you say, if
you're struggling, reach out.
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
Yes.
I think that's really importantthat we all hear this message.
If you're in trouble, pleasereach out.
At the same time, we need toreach out to those who we're
concerned about.
And um uh lots of people thinkyou can never ask the suicide
(23:59):
question.
You'll just put the idea insomeone's head.
The research says the oppositethat if you have concern for
somebody to say, have you hadany thoughts of taking your
life?
Um, and as Trinette said, in theaftermath of a suicide, it's
actually a risk period forothers.
So this is this is when we we weneed to be, you know, it's a
(24:23):
scary question to ask for mostof us, but being prepared to ask
that question can save lives.
The reality is um the nearlyevery single person is
ambivalent about taking theirlife.
By that I mean they have reasonsto live as well as the reasons
that they think they they wantto die.
(24:44):
And tapping into thatambivalence and the reasons for
them to continue living and umaspects of hope, trying to
re-engage hope in them, that's areally important thing to do.
So asking that question, ifyou're terrified about asking
the question, and you know whatif they say yes, and they do say
(25:04):
yes, um, you can always ringLifeline together.
One, three, one, one, one, four.
Say, okay, we're gonna callLifeline and we're gonna talk to
them, and they'll help us workout what to do from here.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
I mean, what you're talking about is if you're like
tackling the issue head on inpersonal conversation.
Yes.
What about facing the issue headon in public?
Um, let's go to you first,Trinette.
Uh in in the in the in thefuneral or in an announcement at
church, or I mean even the waythe archbishop here has been
(25:41):
quite frank and honest in his uhad clericum letter to the clergy
of his diocese.
SPEAKER_04 (25:49):
I think I mean from my perspective, Keith, you can
correct me if I'm off the mark.
I think it I think there is atime and a place and an
appropriateness to acknowledgethat this is a suicide death.
Um I don't think it'sappropriate nor helpful to
discuss how a person took theirlife, but to discuss the fact
(26:09):
that there was a hopelessnessthat they felt that that suicide
was the answer to.
There's an appropriateness tothat because there is a realness
into doing life together wherewe have to acknowledge that life
is hard.
You know, Jesus says, you know,come if you follow me, life is
going to be hard for one reasonor another.
(26:31):
Um, and God doesn't save us andthen send us on our own journey.
He saves us, puts us incommunity so that we can run the
race together.
And so acknowledging that thatthis is a suicide, that other
people might be feeling that, Ithink there's an appropriate
appropriateness to that.
Um, we need to talk about theperson as well.
(26:52):
Sometimes in um in grief, wefeel like, oh, we shouldn't
bring this person up, or weshouldn't mention this, or we
shouldn't talk about them.
But there's actually somethingreally um healing when we do
talk about the person, what theymeant to us, um, who they were,
funny stories.
I I had um it wasn't suicide,but I had my brother-in-law pass
(27:15):
away late last year.
And in between our, in betweenhim passing and the funeral, we
spent a lot of time tellingsilly stories about him.
And I think that actuallyhonored his memory because he
lived a life.
He had a wife, children.
Those stories that we tell andthat we remind each other of is
(27:36):
really important.
I just I said to someone justthis morning um after the
suicide death of someone lastweek, uh, she was just like, Oh,
we keep on keeping on.
And I was like, Yes, but it'salso okay not to, because it
honors that person's memory whenwe grieve them well because they
meant a lot to you.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (27:55):
And so, yes, we do like time doesn't stop.
For the family, it definitelyfeels like it stops.
Yes, but time doesn't stop, andwe need to create space where we
honor that person, we talk aboutthat person because they were a
person, they were connected inour communities.
We need to mourn that, we needto talk about them as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah, keep the public in it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
Yeah, I think I'd say um I I agree, Trinette.
I think let's be as open aspossible.
I suppose the caveat I would putis um there's times for the sake
of family, um, young children,where what parents, for example,
might want to communicate totheir children public
announcements.
(28:39):
Uh, that's not the we've justgot to take that into account.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:43):
I think in terms of what's said publicly.
But overall, this is it does nothelp to have this as a taboo
subject.
And I think in our Christiancommunities, as much as
possible, let's let's be as openas is appropriate for the
particular occasion and context.
Um, a uh an archbishop writingto his clergy explaining the
(29:06):
exact nature.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
That's a good letter.
SPEAKER_03 (29:08):
I think that's a very good letter.
Yeah.
I think that's entirelyappropriate.
But um, but yeah.
But there's I think there aresome contexts where there are
sensitivities involved that weneed to recognise.
So there's there's wisdom here,I think.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
I'm I'm just thinking, I mean, we would say
that the gospel is at, if youlike, its strongest point um in
the midst of suffering and andactually by the edge of the
grave.
Do you know?
And so uh to actually show thateven in this terrible moment,
the gospel has a has a hassomething to say that other
(29:44):
worldviews don't.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
So powerfully end of Romans 8.
That list of things that cannotseparate us from the love of
Christ.
Uh depends on your thetranslation you read.
Trouble could be translateddistress, psychological distress
is in in view here.
Psychological distress does notseparate us from the love of
Christ.
Um, death does not separate usfrom the love of Christ.
(30:07):
Uh suicide is not theunforgivable sin, but we must
not send the message that thisis this is a via this is a good
option.
It is not.
It is not, it's the wrong thingto do.
But people, as Trinetta said,people find themselves in very
desperate situations, theirthinking is narrowed, they are
not thinking clearly, um, andnot thinking with their right
(30:30):
mind.
They're not thinking with theirright mind.
And they do something that umyeah that causes huge
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Yeah.
What about the the aftermath?
Because I'm imagining that um inthe Christian communities where
this has happened and it's beena senior leader, it's gonna it's
a long journey.
SPEAKER_04 (30:56):
It is a long journey with lots of unanswered
questions that perhaps willnever be answered.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:03):
Um, and that's really difficult.
And I think I'll go back to theimportance of working this
through, like journeying throughthis together as a community of
God's people.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (31:16):
Um there is a a time and a place where perhaps we all
lose hope, and so we need thecommunity of God's people to
carry that hope for us when wecan't carry it ourselves.
Um, there is a time and a placewhere we carry each other, or as
Paul talks about in Galatians 6,we bear each other's burdens.
Um we we I think we need to dothis together.
(31:40):
Um, and there will be times whenpeople in the church can do that
more than others, but that's thebeauty of being in a church that
we are working together.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Some will be up, some will be down.
Um, those who are doing bettercan get alongside those who are
really struggling.
And this comes in waves, it'sups and downs, and it's this is
not a straightforwardtrajectory.
SPEAKER_04 (32:01):
Um, and there's also no time frame.
SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
There's no time frame.
Um But but there are there arethere are profound biblical
truths in the midst that God iswith us in the midst of this,
and you know, we don't jumpquickly to trite answers, we let
people experience the depth ofwhat they're going through.
There is real lament in thissituation, but um, but yes,
(32:26):
there is that time and placewhere the reminders of of God
being with us through these darkvalleys, um we need that message
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
In the beginning, I raised the question, I'm gonna
put it to you now.
Um, I'm imagining people aregoing to be thinking, should I
have known?
Could I have known?
Should I have done more?
Should I have pushed in more?
And having thoughts and feelingsof guilt.
Yeah, Trinette.
SPEAKER_04 (32:53):
Yeah, like I said, there will always be questions
after an event like this, andand some of those questions are
right and proper to ask.
Um I think I would say it'sunfair of us to be holding
ourselves to account for thingsthat we should have done if we
(33:17):
didn't know.
So if we've got someone in ourlife who has died by suicide and
we didn't pick up on the warningsigns, how do we know to ask?
Perhaps those signs weren'tclear for us.
So we need to be gentle withourselves in in these questions
and these ponderings as well.
Um we also do we shouldn't holdourselves to account, our past
(33:41):
selves to account with what wenow know.
So Keith has shared with us, youknow, asking the question about
suicide is right and proper andhelpful.
If we didn't know that before,if we thought we would actually
be doing harm before, then wecan't hold past self to account
for what we now know.
Um and the good news about God'sgrace is that it is
(34:04):
all-encompassing.
So if we are feeling guilt ordistress about those things,
God's grace is big enough forthat as well.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
I mean, that's very helpful.
I mean, that in the way that Ithink back of all sorts of sins
and errors in my past that arecovered by the blood of Jesus,
yeah.
Then this one too, this pastoralif if it is a pastoral fail,
then it is too covered by the bythe blood of Jesus.
SPEAKER_04 (34:28):
Absolutely.
And in God's grace, then nexttime we know a little bit more.
Next time perhaps we'll be a bitmore confident to ask that
question, to come alongside, tobe a bit more vulnerable.
Yes, Keith.
SPEAKER_03 (34:38):
And when you say, you know, could I have done
more?
I've I feel like that with allof my life.
unknown (34:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
There's so many aspects of my life.
I could have done more.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
Um and we would say in Christian ministry, I just
look at every aspect of thischurch and I think there's more
that needs to be done here, andthere's more that needs to be
done there, and there's morethat there's more that needs to
be done every area of thischurch.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (34:58):
And again, sometimes in those situations, the guilt
feelings will be there.
And yes, let's acknowledge that,and we might need to sit in
that, and that might take someprocessing and some time, and it
might, you know, it might goaway for a while and then come
back again.
That's that's okay.
But again, let's let biblicaltruth speak into this that God's
(35:19):
grace is there, God understandsour failings, our imperfections,
and um there is a time when weappropriately can say, okay, I
might have made a mistake, butthis is now in the Lord's hands,
and I I I can let it go.
SPEAKER_04 (35:38):
I think it's really important to remember that in
those as well, God doesn't holdus at arm's distance.
No.
He actually comes to us, he isdrawn to us in our distress, in
our grief, in our guilt.
He's not he's not going, oh, youshould have done better.
He's going, it's okay.
I got this, I'm here with you inthis.
And we need to rest in in thetenderness and the compassion of
(36:02):
Jesus in those moments.
Yeah.
unknown (36:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:06):
Keith, I'm imagining that there are people with us
who have um uh just been throughcaring for people and caring
about uh people and are in allsorts of moments on the grief
cycle.
Um uh there are people who arein close family situations um
(36:27):
who are watching or listening tothis program at the moment.
Why don't you lead in prayer umfor those people, but also for
the person who's just findingit, the senior leader who's just
finding it really hard at themoment.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah, I'd love to do that.
Let me pray.
Our gracious God and lovingheavenly Father, we do thank you
that you are the God who caresfor the brokenhearted, who draws
near to us in our weakness, uhin our pain, in our grief, in
our despair.
Father, you don't turn yourback, but you come close.
(37:02):
And Father, I just pray that youwould draw near to those who
feel overwhelmed or distressedin um some way at the moment due
to the impact of loss upon them.
Or for those ministers uh whoare listening who are just
finding things really hard.
(37:23):
Father, please be our rock, ourrefuge, our strength.
Father, for those of us who aredoing okay, please give us eyes
to see need around us and to bewilling uh to seek to to reach
out and um ask questions andprovide support where we can.
(37:44):
And Father, we if we are reallystruggling, please help us to be
willing to have a conversation.
And thank you, Father, that inour Lord Jesus our hope is
strong, steadfast and sure, andthat nothing can separate us
from your love shown to us inour precious Lord Jesus Christ.
(38:05):
And we pray in his name.
Amen.
Amen.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
Trinette Stanley has been my guest, mental health
educator with Anglicare, alongwith Keith Condy from the
Anglican Deaconess MinistriesMental Health and Pastoral Care
Institute.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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