March 31, 2025 • 29 mins
Today we review the 50 year impact of The University of New South Wales’ Campus Bible Study on Christian ministries across Australia and around the world - in raising up gospel workers, sending missionaries, planting churches and in Christian publishing.
Former Anglican Dean of Sydney Phillip Jensen led the ministry for thirty years till 2005. Since then Paul Grimmond and Carl Matthei have been senior chaplains.
Alan Stewart started studying at the University of New South Wales just two years after Phillip Jensen arrived as Anglican Chaplain. Alan was saved by Jesus in 1979 and went on to assist in the ministry, before becoming CEO of Anglican Youthworks, Bishop of Wollonong, head of Church Planting for Sydney Anglicans and then national director of the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches.
Tony Payne and Tracey Gowing started as undergraduate a few years after Alan. Tony went on to run the influential Christian publishing house Matthias Media, while Tracey led the Christian ministry at Cumberland College Christian Group before returning to UNSW as a senior staff member at Campus Bible Study.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel.
And 50 years ago, marking 50years of ministry.
Looking back, today we'retalking about campus bible study
at the university of new southwales.
Old friends alan stewart, tonypain and tracy gowing are with
me.
A couple of weeks ago, hundredsof former students of the
University of New South Walesheaded back to their old campus
(00:29):
in the eastern suburbs of Sydneyto celebrate together the 50th
birthday of their campusChristian group.
Fifty years ago, 1975, the newlyappointed Anglican chaplain,
philip Jensen, started Biblestudies just a few students in
attendance at the universitychaplaincy.
Now Alan Stewart starteduniversity in 1977.
(00:52):
Alan was saved by Jesus in 1979.
He went on to go to theologicalcollege and then came back on
the ministry staff in 1992 andstayed till 2002.
And disclosure I was Alan'sfirst ministry trainee.
Tony Payne started university acouple of years later.
He went on to found MatthiasMedia and Tony was my first
(01:15):
Bible study group leader in 1987.
And Tracy Gowing?
It was 1984 that she starteduni and she's been and gone a
few few times but is actuallystill on the staff at Campus
Bible Study.
Well, al Stewart, let's startwith you.
And can we go to 1977?
And what was it like joining upwith that Bible study as a
(01:36):
young undergraduate.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I came down from the north coast beginning of 77,
stayed in New College 200 rooms,all sorts of adolescent
stupidity going on but God hadput me in a room beside a young
guy called Bryson Smith who isnow a Presbyterian minister, was
at Dubbo and now at BathurstAmazing.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Bible teacher.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
The smartest guy in the room, first-class honours et
cetera and his zoology degree.
I didn't go to campus Biblestudy.
Campus Bible study came to me.
So Philip Jensen used to comedown and do a study in the New
College Library before dinner ona Tuesday night and Bryson
dragged me along to that andwe'd sit in a circle of about 10
people and I can remember inthat room was the first time the
(02:21):
Bible ever made sense.
So, yeah, anyway, campus BibleStudy came to me.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Was it at uni that you met Andrew Hurd?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, I met Andrew Hurd 83 and 84, I was a ministry
trainer.
We didn't call it MTS oranything so sophisticated.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
We don't believe in acronyms here, but you did call
it a ministry trainer.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, we used to call it Santa's Helpers, but
we'd never tell Santa.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Andrew Heard was a university student then and I
got to know him.
We'd go to the gym et cetera,so I've known Andrew for a long
time.
Yeah, and he was your firststudent minister.
When I worked at Mount Druittas a minister.
Out there, andrew was a studentminister for that year yeah.
(03:13):
Now I can't claim that I taughthim everything he knows, but I
would think a substantial amount.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, now we're going to talk in a moment about
Matthias Media, but I mean, juston him, I found this.
I think it was your secondpublication for Matthias Media.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It was a very early one and I'm not sure Andrew's
ever going to forgive me forthat I persuaded him to lie on
Brodie Beach and for us to takea photo of him to illustrate the
good life when he had hair, andso, yeah, I think he's hoping
that's been buried and we'llnever see the light of day again
.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But there we are.
You found it, I did.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think he's got better looking over the years.
Oh yes, that hair thing,totally unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
But in terms of impact of the ministry, you were
telling me that even back thenhe had dreams of a church plant
on the central coast.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Andrew worked with us in 1991 and he and Kathy then
were very clear that they wantedto go to the Central Coast and
plant a church, and I think he'seven saying it should be in
Erina.
So he is.
They as a couple were veryfocused about what they wanted
to do.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Now, tony Payne, let's hear your story of
starting as a uni student.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, I also came from the North Coast.
You've got North Coast peoplehere.
This is great God's own countryup there.
I came down from Lism, startingas a uni student.
I also came from the NorthCoast.
You've got North Coast peoplehere, dominic, this is great
God's own country up there.
I came down from Lismore as avery keen but very confused, I'd
say I was a high churchcharismatic Anglican.
How about that?
When I first arrived in Sydneyand lobbed for various reasons
into St Matthias and campusBible study and, a bit like Al,
(04:43):
I had never actually heard theBible taught.
I was a keen Christian butclueless, and I heard the Bible
expounded and taught in a waythat just completely blew my
mind.
Not only that the Bible couldbe like this and you could
understand the Bible like this,but that God could speak to you
in this way and change your lifein this way, and it reordered
(05:04):
everything for me.
And one of the things Iremember most particularly I
think I mean Philip Jensen andthe whole ministry there had a
reputation for very strong,clear Bible teaching.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, when did you arrive?
1981.
Right, so this is six yearslater, but already a reputation.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, very much so.
And when I first got there andwas hearing the preaching and
especially coming to grips withthe charismatic movement because
the charismatic movement was ahuge issue at the time, like it
was dividing churches it was amassive question.
And the thing that changed meenormously was the combination
of strong, clear teaching thatactually dug into the truth, dug
(05:45):
into what the Bible said,combined with a very warm,
patient pastoral care for me asa person as I thought through
all those things over a 12-,18-month period.
So there was a wonderfulcombination of the Bible,
clearly and powerfully taughtthat challenged my thinking, and
a personal pastoral care for meas a person that helped me come
(06:08):
to rethink and change mythinking over time.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You say the charismatic issue was a big
issue at the time.
I mean, I'd probably say now,if you're like you've got the
Pentecostal churches over hereand the evangelical churches
over there, it was much, muchmessier back then Very much.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
So it was very much more intermixed and it was a
very live issue Shouldevangelicalism be charismatic?
Was this a genuine reformmovement that should change all
of us?
And it was very much in justabout every evangelical church,
this question, and so it was amassive pastoral issue and the
way that it was dealt with,certainly for me and for many
(06:41):
people, was very powerful andvery helpful, because there was
that combination of the wordpowerfully taught and the person
who needs to be cared for andallowed to think things through,
and that was a value of theministry then.
That just kind of has been partof it ever since, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Let's go to Tracey Gowing.
It was a couple of years later1984, that you came to uni,
tracey, yes that's right, yes.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
And as I was walking along to Anzac Parade to go to
UniSearch House to register,someone said, would you like to
study the Bible at uni?
And I said yes, I was actuallylooking for St Matthias because
my scripture teacher at schoolhad told me about Narelle
(07:25):
Jarrett and Matthias and campusBible study, so I'd heard about
it.
I was a very unthought-outChristian, didn't really know
how to read the Bible God gaveyou a Bible study leader in Tony
Payne.
Well, yeah, tony was my staffworker in Goldstone College and
(07:48):
Al was my first year Bible studyleader on campus, and in that
group there was well, by the endof the semester, it was just me
and the two leaders.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
The best pastoral care.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah, it was fantastic so that pastoral care
and I think for me it wasworking out.
Oh, you can actually read theBible.
There's a story from Genesisthrough to Revelation.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And learning biblical theology.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
And learning biblical theology, yeah, and
understanding what is it that Ibelieve?
So for me the charismaticmovement had come through
Kempsey, so North Coast Girl,and I didn't get involved in it
because I'd written it off, butI didn't really have the
theology or the understanding towork out why.
(08:34):
And so Campus Bible Studyhelped me have a, I suppose,
gospel vision, and a globalgospel vision.
I think that the gospel is notjust for me, it's for everyone,
and so for me to actually thinkabout do I go to the nations for
(08:55):
the gospel?
So that call that we are to bepeople who are committed to
seeing everyone know Jesus, notjust here in Sydney, not just in
Australia, but the whole globe,was pretty significant for me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
The place you went was Cumberland College.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
It was yes.
Yes, that's what it was calledfor a little while yes, tell us
about the ministry there.
Well, I'd been blessed bycoming and working after Kim
Little had been working thereand also Andrew Reid before that
.
So Andrew Reid wanted to give atrial of having some staff on
(09:31):
campus, and so I hit a campuswhich was also committed to
reading the Bible, wantingpeople to know Jesus, and so I
got to ride on the wave ofstudents and staff wanting to
learn how to serve others.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I think you did more than just ride the wave Tracy,
though, didn't you?
That's very modest of you.
You pushed the wave along alittle bit yourself, well, I
suppose.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
So I think Kim had set things up and so it meant
what do we do?
We had an opportunity to raiseup men and women who wanted to
know, wanted to serve Jesus witha lifetime, yeah, faithfully
working away at yeah, helpingpeople.
I suppose people leave thecampus not just wanting to look
(10:21):
after people's health, but tosee that we can, you know, maybe
change the whole health system.
That was sort of the vision togo out and, yeah, preach Christ
in your workplace, full-timeministry in your families.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
And you've had a big impact both at Cumberland
College and later in helpingparticularly young women think
Christian ministry.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Yeah, one of my big dreams is to see as many women
equipped to teach the Bible andto take the opportunities they
have to see whoever they runinto know Jesus.
So it's you know, why did Godmake me single?
Well, this is the reason, isn'tit that?
(11:08):
The opportunity to persuadewomen that they can do it, they
can teach other people the Bible, they can take risks and help
people know Jesus.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah, it's a great cause for Thanksgiving, isn't it
, to see that that sort of thinghas been happening repeatedly.
You did some training in God'skindness at UNSW, got some great
training in the Bible and inministry and in sort of the
values and principles of Bibleministry.
Off you go somewhere else Otherpeople have been doing that as
well.
You jump on board, give it apush along.
(11:41):
Other women get raised up, andthen women that you've raised up
and trained are now going otherplaces to do the same thing in
other places, and that's the wayGod works, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, it is, it's 2, Timothy 2, isn't?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
it.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, it's passing it on the grace is the thing that
gives us strength, and we havethe honour and privilege of
seeing people who are better atdoing things than us doing it
elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So that's what I love you, Matthias, Media.
I mean, that's been a massivething in the evangelical
ecosystem for a long time now,but it kind of really began in
your lounge room and underPhilip Jensen's leadership.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, it was one of those many, many examples and we
could tell many stories and Ithink in some ways our stories
are all like this that ministryat CBS and the culture at that
time and ever since has been acombination of the urgency to
take the gospel to the world andpeople who just happen to come
along and have particularstrengths and gifts, and so what
could we build around thatperson?
(12:42):
What could that person do?
How could that person take thegospel?
And that's what happened withme.
It's what happened with ArchiePoulos when he came along, and
so they started a ministry tothe Greek community and we had
Greek Bible fellowship.
And this happened again andagain.
And for me I had a degree incommunications I didn't think I
was going to use that really.
I was going to use that Really.
I was just going to be a pastorand go back to the North Coast.
(13:03):
That's what my plan was.
But an opportunity came up.
I needed to pause for a littlewhile for some family reasons.
Some money became availablebecause that venerable old
Anglican newspaper, the ChurchRecord, sort of went into kind
of receivership and they donatedsome money.
And so Phillips said why don'twe start a little publishing
thing?
You used to study journalism,did you?
(13:24):
We could do that, and so, withnot the slightest clue what we
were doing, but with a vision totake the word out and to
reproduce some of the thinkingand resources that we'd been
developing at CVS, we started alittle publishing thing in a
very small room in Kingsford inthe most dilapidated, rundown
rabbit warren of an officeyou've ever seen, and using a
(13:47):
Gestetner printer that waspositioned out in a little sort
of alcove near the toilet.
It was really high-class stuff,but that's where it all started
.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It was a classy publication.
My first copies of the briefingwere badly gastetaned A4 pages,
not even stapled in a plasticbag.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Oh, but we got sophisticated as it went along.
We added a staple and then westarted printing double-sided.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, no, no, it did get sophisticated very quickly,
but I remember the first thing.
I think oh, I paid for this,didn't.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I you did go colour, do you remember that?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
First two colour, then four colour.
It was all right.
The vision was really tomultiply.
The whole thing is aboutmultiplication, as we've been
talking about, was to multiplywhat the ministry of the word
was doing in that place and seehow far we could spread it.
And so, as we developed, forexample, bible study resources
and sermons that people werefinding useful, why don't we
package them up and spread themaround to other people?
(14:43):
And because there was nobodydoing that really in Australia
at that point, all our Christianbooks and resources came either
from the US or from the UK.
There was a very smallAustralian publishing industry,
not much and we found that therewas a real need for locally
produced, Bible-centred,high-quality ministry resources
like Bible studies, like TwoWays to Live is a training
(15:05):
course, like Just for Starters,bible studies, like all these
sorts of things.
The churches said we can usethis to multiply the ministry of
the word and to trainChristians to do that work.
And so we very surprisinglyfound that there was a real need
and, instead of going back tothe North Coast as a pastor, I
ended up doing that for the next25 or 30 years.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Now I came to church, evangelical Church to St
Matthias, in mid-1985.
And then in January 1986, myfriend said we should go to this
conference in Katoomba.
And so I went with them to this, this conference in Katoomba.
And so I went with them to thisbig conference in Katoomba a
(15:47):
circus tent, I don't know, 5,000, 7,000 people, and actually
became a Christian that weekend.
But tell us about those earlydays.
I mean because KatoombaConvention had been going for a
long time.
It was in the doldrums.
Philip Jensen became the chairand then suddenly it made an
explosive impact.
(16:07):
Al, you were around watching.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, I think my first convention was 82 and then
I got invited to be on acommittee 83, and I was involved
for 30 years.
So, I think I did every likeparking and bookshop and ended
up.
I was chairman of the board fora while and would have
preferred to be doing parkingreally.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So I kind of did everything.
The circus tent was thehighlight.
Yeah, those days in the 80s inthe circus tent, oh yeah, they
were the glory days.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
My number one memory of, I think Katoomba is Don
Carson's.
I have a Dream talk that he didin the circus tent was just I
think it must be nearly 40 yearsago and it's still kind of
sparking.
I still think, wow, yeah, thatwas great.
And the amount of work involvedby the people behind the scenes
(16:59):
to get that tent put up and etcetera, that was, yeah, amazing.
Someone else can probably tellthe story of the 1988 one where
I think Philip Jensen spokeabout the mentioned the first
fleet and the storm was comingin and I was sitting on the
platform and you could hear thecanvases flapping backwards and
(17:21):
forwards as he're talking aboutthe first fleet and I'm thinking
is this safe?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
or yeah.
I mean, I remember Philiptalking about that later and
there's 6,000, 7,000 of us inthe circus tent, the biggest
circus tent that you could hirein Australia at the time and the
storm was wild and you weren'tsure if the tent was going to
make it through the night.
And you're thinking.
Well, he described it up.
(17:47):
I was speaking, I was teachingthe Bible, I was the chair of
the convention.
Should I say, stop halfwaythrough my Bible, talk everyone
go out, everybody, out,everybody out and I'm trying to
focus on my notes and trying tocommunicate Christ and got this
other conversation going on inmy head about what should we be
doing, and I think that was thelast year in the circus tent.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, it wasn't lack of courage that stopped.
It just wasn't available afterthat, and then we went and
extended the auditorium up thetop and yeah so.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But there was a.
I mean your memories, tony, Imean prophetic, bold Bible
teaching.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I remember some of John Chapman's talks, his talks
about holiness.
That ended up becoming someMatthias Media resources down
the track, actually the littlebook A Foot in Two Worlds and
from Sinner to Saint.
His talk on holiness in theChristian life, how not to be a
legalistic, perfectionisticholiness person, but how God
(18:45):
calls us to pursue holiness.
That was very life-changing forme in the mid to late 80s I
can't remember exactly when itwas.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, I can tell you, because it was 1986.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Was it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And the Saturday night in 1986, john Chapman on
Hebrews 12, and the line was fixyour eyes on Jesus, the author
and perfecter of your faith, andrun with perseverance.
The race marked out for us, notgetting caught in the things
that hinder or the sins thatentangle.
(19:17):
And I mean I think I'd beenworking grace out, but I hadn't
worked out lordship.
And that moment in the tent, Ithought I was going out with a
non-Christian girl and behavingbadly with a non-Christian girl
(19:37):
and going out with her was athing that hindered and behaving
badly was a sin that entangledand behaving badly was a sin
that entangled, and John Chapmansaid the Christian life is not
a short sprint but along-distance race.
(19:58):
And fix your eyes on Jesus.
And the other thing he did was,he said, since we're surrounded
by such a great cloud ofwitnesses Now I now know there's
a context of Hebrews 11 and allthose saints, but at the time
it just felt like the 7,000people in the tent.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
They're all going to bear witness for you.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I just was.
I could take you to where I wassitting in that auditorium and
I heard the voice of God thatnight on the mountain in the we
now call it a car park, but inthat circus tent.
And it was two hours later thatI trusted Christ and sitting
with my friend Russell Powelltalking about what John had said
(20:44):
from Hebrews 12 that night.
And yeah, that holiness talkhas been published, and when you
published it I thought oh,there it is.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's the power of the word, isn't it?
And that's as I look back overthe whole ministry.
That's the thing I'm moststruck by and thankful for and I
think changed me most is thetrust in and confidence in, if
you teach and preach what theword is really saying and you
make it clear by saying it's notsaying this and it's opposed to
that and it is saying this andthis is what it means for you.
It's life-changing, becauseGod's word is so powerful.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, I mean memory from you, Tracy Gale.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I have a lot of memories, I think for the
Leviticus talks on holinessreally struck me.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That was the same weekend, john Woodhouse, john
Woodhouse, that went over myhead.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, I think that was that profound sense of
holiness.
All of them are all sort ofmushed together.
I do remember being on Usteringand it was so wet we had to put
pallets out.
Here we are trying to deal withthe weather, so I don't know
whether that was the sameweekend as that one.
(21:53):
And I think the other time wasJohn Chapman speaking and we
lost power, but being struck bythe silence as we heard God's
word.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
As he tried to kind of shout, it just kept going, it
kept going.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
And he shouted, he spoke, and we heard a wonderful
message about Jesus.
So I think the other thing thatstrikes me about the whole
ministry too, is how it didbring people from everywhere
together, and so you met peoplefrom Baptist, church, anglican
(22:29):
churches, and so that unityaround the word of God was, I
think, quite significant for me,just meeting different people.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Let's talk the pastor's heart, because I mean
the three big guys there havebeen well, philip Jensen and
Paul Grimmond and Carl Matti.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
This is at CBS, yeah, at.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Campus Bible Study.
No, you missed one.
I don't mean me or Al or TracyCole Marshall, cole, marshall,
cole Marshall was huge in theMinistry of Campus Bible Study
and it wouldn't have been whatit was without Cole, because
it's almost like if you wantedto summarise these last 50 years
(23:13):
and what that ministry wasabout, it was a combination of
this powerful preaching and apeople focus.
That's all about training andthat was really what really Cole
brought to the ministry with.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Philip.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was almost the meshing together of classic
evangelical powerful preachingand personal discipleship
training via the Navigators thatCole came in.
It was kind of like the meshingof those two things.
It was part of the secret sauce, I think in some ways.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
So you needed to add in an extra.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It was the quiet talks with Cole.
You know the arm around theshoulder and I remember many of
those Likewise.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
yeah, and the pastoral heart.
Yes, that when, if you broke upwith your boyfriend, he was
there and working out how tohelp sort that out.
So yeah, no, you never broke upwith your….
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I never broke up, anyway, yeah, but yeah you're
right.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
You're right, absolutely.
What are you thankful for aboutPhilip Jensen in the pastor's?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
heart Many things Became a Christian.
Through his Bible teaching he'sreally been kind of showing me
how to live as a dad, as ahusband, in so many ways.
He married me to Kathy.
He baptised me on the same dayas my first child, put his hand
(24:33):
on my shoulder several timesabout going into ministry work,
so you know how long have yougot?
I think what's impressed meabout Phil is not just
entrepreneurial ability etcetera, but I know how soft he
is personally.
He really is a big sook andloves people and everything.
And yet the level of pain he'sbeen prepared to take to step up
(24:54):
and say hard things andconfront things and so on, and
so I know how much he hurts buthe still does what's necessary.
That's what really hasimpressed me.
Yeah, tracy, about me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Tracy About Philip.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Yeah, I think.
Well, he was the one who helpedme understand the gospel and so
very thankful for him beingwilling to do that.
I remember he came and did whatwas a dialogue meeting at
Goldstein and his personalnessin talking to us and modeling to
us.
How do you go about helpingsomeone know Jesus better and
(25:34):
what are the false views thatyou want to expose?
To help people recognize theyreally don't understand what a
Christian is.
People recognise they reallydon't understand what a
Christian is.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
So his sharpness and articulateness in helping us
know how to preach the gospel.
Yeah, tony, I'd echo both ofthose things.
I won't just say the same thingagain.
I'll try and say somethingdifferent.
I think for me, I alwaysappreciated how he taught the
Bible and read the Bible and washappy to go.
Taught the Bible and read theBible and was happy to go where
the Bible led him, even when itled him to not where he wanted
(26:14):
to go or led him to new thoughts.
It was his constant curiosityand trust in what was the Bible
really saying and then awillingness to actually change
and rethink what we were doingin light of that Because that's
really the story of the ministryis this constant rethinking and
relooking in light of whatwe're seeing in Scripture and in
(26:34):
light of what's happening, ofwhat we should do next.
And so this combination of akind of very strong conservative
we will not shift from what theBible is saying and yet this
constant inventive, creativereinventing of how to actually
do it along the way, in responseto the current conditions.
So, that combination in him isvery unusual.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Thank you so much for coming in Our guests today.
Al Stewart, tony Payne andTracy Gowing all of them
involved on the staff in one wayor another of the Campus
Ministry, campus Bible Study atthe University of New South
Wales.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel.
And 50 years ago, marking 50years of ministry.
Looking back, today we'retalking about campus bible study
at the university of new southwales.
Old friends alan stewart, tonypain and tracy gowing are with
me.
A couple of weeks ago, hundredsof former students of the
University of New South Walesheaded back to their old campus
(00:29):
in the eastern suburbs of Sydneyto celebrate together the 50th
birthday of their campusChristian group.
Fifty years ago, 1975, the newlyappointed Anglican chaplain,
philip Jensen, started Biblestudies just a few students in
attendance at the universitychaplaincy.
Now Alan Stewart starteduniversity in 1977.
(00:52):
Alan was saved by Jesus in 1979.
He went on to go to theologicalcollege and then came back on
the ministry staff in 1992 andstayed till 2002.
And disclosure I was Alan'sfirst ministry trainee.
Tony Payne started university acouple of years later.
He went on to found MatthiasMedia and Tony was my first
(01:15):
Bible study group leader in 1987.
And Tracy Gowing?
It was 1984 that she starteduni and she's been and gone a
few few times but is actuallystill on the staff at Campus
Bible Study.
Well, al Stewart, let's startwith you.
And can we go to 1977?
And what was it like joining upwith that Bible study as a
(01:36):
young undergraduate.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I came down from the north coast beginning of 77,
stayed in New College 200 rooms,all sorts of adolescent
stupidity going on but God hadput me in a room beside a young
guy called Bryson Smith who isnow a Presbyterian minister, was
at Dubbo and now at BathurstAmazing.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Bible teacher.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
The smartest guy in the room, first-class honours et
cetera and his zoology degree.
I didn't go to campus Biblestudy.
Campus Bible study came to me.
So Philip Jensen used to comedown and do a study in the New
College Library before dinner ona Tuesday night and Bryson
dragged me along to that andwe'd sit in a circle of about 10
people and I can remember inthat room was the first time the
(02:21):
Bible ever made sense.
So, yeah, anyway, campus BibleStudy came to me.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Was it at uni that you met Andrew Hurd?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, I met Andrew Hurd 83 and 84, I was a ministry
trainer.
We didn't call it MTS oranything so sophisticated.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
We don't believe in acronyms here, but you did call
it a ministry trainer.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, we used to call it Santa's Helpers, but
we'd never tell Santa.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Andrew Heard was a university student then and I
got to know him.
We'd go to the gym et cetera,so I've known Andrew for a long
time.
Yeah, and he was your firststudent minister.
When I worked at Mount Druittas a minister.
Out there, andrew was a studentminister for that year yeah.
(03:13):
Now I can't claim that I taughthim everything he knows, but I
would think a substantial amount.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, now we're going to talk in a moment about
Matthias Media, but I mean, juston him, I found this.
I think it was your secondpublication for Matthias Media.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It was a very early one and I'm not sure Andrew's
ever going to forgive me forthat I persuaded him to lie on
Brodie Beach and for us to takea photo of him to illustrate the
good life when he had hair, andso, yeah, I think he's hoping
that's been buried and we'llnever see the light of day again
.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But there we are.
You found it, I did.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think he's got better looking over the years.
Oh yes, that hair thing,totally unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
But in terms of impact of the ministry, you were
telling me that even back thenhe had dreams of a church plant
on the central coast.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Andrew worked with us in 1991 and he and Kathy then
were very clear that they wantedto go to the Central Coast and
plant a church, and I think he'seven saying it should be in
Erina.
So he is.
They as a couple were veryfocused about what they wanted
to do.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Now, tony Payne, let's hear your story of
starting as a uni student.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, I also came from the North Coast.
You've got North Coast peoplehere.
This is great God's own countryup there.
I came down from Lism, startingas a uni student.
I also came from the NorthCoast.
You've got North Coast peoplehere, dominic, this is great
God's own country up there.
I came down from Lismore as avery keen but very confused, I'd
say I was a high churchcharismatic Anglican.
How about that?
When I first arrived in Sydneyand lobbed for various reasons
into St Matthias and campusBible study and, a bit like Al,
(04:43):
I had never actually heard theBible taught.
I was a keen Christian butclueless, and I heard the Bible
expounded and taught in a waythat just completely blew my
mind.
Not only that the Bible couldbe like this and you could
understand the Bible like this,but that God could speak to you
in this way and change your lifein this way, and it reordered
(05:04):
everything for me.
And one of the things Iremember most particularly I
think I mean Philip Jensen andthe whole ministry there had a
reputation for very strong,clear Bible teaching.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, when did you arrive?
1981.
Right, so this is six yearslater, but already a reputation.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, very much so.
And when I first got there andwas hearing the preaching and
especially coming to grips withthe charismatic movement because
the charismatic movement was ahuge issue at the time, like it
was dividing churches it was amassive question.
And the thing that changed meenormously was the combination
of strong, clear teaching thatactually dug into the truth, dug
(05:45):
into what the Bible said,combined with a very warm,
patient pastoral care for me asa person as I thought through
all those things over a 12-,18-month period.
So there was a wonderfulcombination of the Bible,
clearly and powerfully taughtthat challenged my thinking, and
a personal pastoral care for meas a person that helped me come
(06:08):
to rethink and change mythinking over time.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You say the charismatic issue was a big
issue at the time.
I mean, I'd probably say now,if you're like you've got the
Pentecostal churches over hereand the evangelical churches
over there, it was much, muchmessier back then Very much.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
So it was very much more intermixed and it was a
very live issue Shouldevangelicalism be charismatic?
Was this a genuine reformmovement that should change all
of us?
And it was very much in justabout every evangelical church,
this question, and so it was amassive pastoral issue and the
way that it was dealt with,certainly for me and for many
(06:41):
people, was very powerful andvery helpful, because there was
that combination of the wordpowerfully taught and the person
who needs to be cared for andallowed to think things through,
and that was a value of theministry then.
That just kind of has been partof it ever since, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Let's go to Tracey Gowing.
It was a couple of years later1984, that you came to uni,
tracey, yes that's right, yes.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
And as I was walking along to Anzac Parade to go to
UniSearch House to register,someone said, would you like to
study the Bible at uni?
And I said yes, I was actuallylooking for St Matthias because
my scripture teacher at schoolhad told me about Narelle
(07:25):
Jarrett and Matthias and campusBible study, so I'd heard about
it.
I was a very unthought-outChristian, didn't really know
how to read the Bible God gaveyou a Bible study leader in Tony
Payne.
Well, yeah, tony was my staffworker in Goldstone College and
(07:48):
Al was my first year Bible studyleader on campus, and in that
group there was well, by the endof the semester, it was just me
and the two leaders.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
The best pastoral care.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah, it was fantastic so that pastoral care
and I think for me it wasworking out.
Oh, you can actually read theBible.
There's a story from Genesisthrough to Revelation.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And learning biblical theology.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
And learning biblical theology, yeah, and
understanding what is it that Ibelieve?
So for me the charismaticmovement had come through
Kempsey, so North Coast Girl,and I didn't get involved in it
because I'd written it off, butI didn't really have the
theology or the understanding towork out why.
(08:34):
And so Campus Bible Studyhelped me have a, I suppose,
gospel vision, and a globalgospel vision.
I think that the gospel is notjust for me, it's for everyone,
and so for me to actually thinkabout do I go to the nations for
(08:55):
the gospel?
So that call that we are to bepeople who are committed to
seeing everyone know Jesus, notjust here in Sydney, not just in
Australia, but the whole globe,was pretty significant for me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
The place you went was Cumberland College.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
It was yes.
Yes, that's what it was calledfor a little while yes, tell us
about the ministry there.
Well, I'd been blessed bycoming and working after Kim
Little had been working thereand also Andrew Reid before that
.
So Andrew Reid wanted to give atrial of having some staff on
(09:31):
campus, and so I hit a campuswhich was also committed to
reading the Bible, wantingpeople to know Jesus, and so I
got to ride on the wave ofstudents and staff wanting to
learn how to serve others.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I think you did more than just ride the wave Tracy,
though, didn't you?
That's very modest of you.
You pushed the wave along alittle bit yourself, well, I
suppose.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
So I think Kim had set things up and so it meant
what do we do?
We had an opportunity to raiseup men and women who wanted to
know, wanted to serve Jesus witha lifetime, yeah, faithfully
working away at yeah, helpingpeople.
I suppose people leave thecampus not just wanting to look
(10:21):
after people's health, but tosee that we can, you know, maybe
change the whole health system.
That was sort of the vision togo out and, yeah, preach Christ
in your workplace, full-timeministry in your families.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
And you've had a big impact both at Cumberland
College and later in helpingparticularly young women think
Christian ministry.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Yeah, one of my big dreams is to see as many women
equipped to teach the Bible andto take the opportunities they
have to see whoever they runinto know Jesus.
So it's you know, why did Godmake me single?
Well, this is the reason, isn'tit that?
(11:08):
The opportunity to persuadewomen that they can do it, they
can teach other people the Bible, they can take risks and help
people know Jesus.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah, it's a great cause for Thanksgiving, isn't it
, to see that that sort of thinghas been happening repeatedly.
You did some training in God'skindness at UNSW, got some great
training in the Bible and inministry and in sort of the
values and principles of Bibleministry.
Off you go somewhere else Otherpeople have been doing that as
well.
You jump on board, give it apush along.
(11:41):
Other women get raised up, andthen women that you've raised up
and trained are now going otherplaces to do the same thing in
other places, and that's the wayGod works, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, it is, it's 2, Timothy 2, isn't?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
it.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, it's passing it on the grace is the thing that
gives us strength, and we havethe honour and privilege of
seeing people who are better atdoing things than us doing it
elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So that's what I love you, Matthias, Media.
I mean, that's been a massivething in the evangelical
ecosystem for a long time now,but it kind of really began in
your lounge room and underPhilip Jensen's leadership.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, it was one of those many, many examples and we
could tell many stories and Ithink in some ways our stories
are all like this that ministryat CBS and the culture at that
time and ever since has been acombination of the urgency to
take the gospel to the world andpeople who just happen to come
along and have particularstrengths and gifts, and so what
could we build around thatperson?
(12:42):
What could that person do?
How could that person take thegospel?
And that's what happened withme.
It's what happened with ArchiePoulos when he came along, and
so they started a ministry tothe Greek community and we had
Greek Bible fellowship.
And this happened again andagain.
And for me I had a degree incommunications I didn't think I
was going to use that really.
I was going to use that Really.
I was just going to be a pastorand go back to the North Coast.
(13:03):
That's what my plan was.
But an opportunity came up.
I needed to pause for a littlewhile for some family reasons.
Some money became availablebecause that venerable old
Anglican newspaper, the ChurchRecord, sort of went into kind
of receivership and they donatedsome money.
And so Phillips said why don'twe start a little publishing
thing?
You used to study journalism,did you?
(13:24):
We could do that, and so, withnot the slightest clue what we
were doing, but with a vision totake the word out and to
reproduce some of the thinkingand resources that we'd been
developing at CVS, we started alittle publishing thing in a
very small room in Kingsford inthe most dilapidated, rundown
rabbit warren of an officeyou've ever seen, and using a
(13:47):
Gestetner printer that waspositioned out in a little sort
of alcove near the toilet.
It was really high-class stuff,but that's where it all started
.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It was a classy publication.
My first copies of the briefingwere badly gastetaned A4 pages,
not even stapled in a plasticbag.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Oh, but we got sophisticated as it went along.
We added a staple and then westarted printing double-sided.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, no, no, it did get sophisticated very quickly,
but I remember the first thing.
I think oh, I paid for this,didn't.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I you did go colour, do you remember that?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
First two colour, then four colour.
It was all right.
The vision was really tomultiply.
The whole thing is aboutmultiplication, as we've been
talking about, was to multiplywhat the ministry of the word
was doing in that place and seehow far we could spread it.
And so, as we developed, forexample, bible study resources
and sermons that people werefinding useful, why don't we
package them up and spread themaround to other people?
(14:43):
And because there was nobodydoing that really in Australia
at that point, all our Christianbooks and resources came either
from the US or from the UK.
There was a very smallAustralian publishing industry,
not much and we found that therewas a real need for locally
produced, Bible-centred,high-quality ministry resources
like Bible studies, like TwoWays to Live is a training
(15:05):
course, like Just for Starters,bible studies, like all these
sorts of things.
The churches said we can usethis to multiply the ministry of
the word and to trainChristians to do that work.
And so we very surprisinglyfound that there was a real need
and, instead of going back tothe North Coast as a pastor, I
ended up doing that for the next25 or 30 years.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Now I came to church, evangelical Church to St
Matthias, in mid-1985.
And then in January 1986, myfriend said we should go to this
conference in Katoomba.
And so I went with them to this, this conference in Katoomba.
And so I went with them to thisbig conference in Katoomba a
(15:47):
circus tent, I don't know, 5,000, 7,000 people, and actually
became a Christian that weekend.
But tell us about those earlydays.
I mean because KatoombaConvention had been going for a
long time.
It was in the doldrums.
Philip Jensen became the chairand then suddenly it made an
explosive impact.
(16:07):
Al, you were around watching.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, I think my first convention was 82 and then
I got invited to be on acommittee 83, and I was involved
for 30 years.
So, I think I did every likeparking and bookshop and ended
up.
I was chairman of the board fora while and would have
preferred to be doing parkingreally.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So I kind of did everything.
The circus tent was thehighlight.
Yeah, those days in the 80s inthe circus tent, oh yeah, they
were the glory days.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
My number one memory of, I think Katoomba is Don
Carson's.
I have a Dream talk that he didin the circus tent was just I
think it must be nearly 40 yearsago and it's still kind of
sparking.
I still think, wow, yeah, thatwas great.
And the amount of work involvedby the people behind the scenes
(16:59):
to get that tent put up and etcetera, that was, yeah, amazing.
Someone else can probably tellthe story of the 1988 one where
I think Philip Jensen spokeabout the mentioned the first
fleet and the storm was comingin and I was sitting on the
platform and you could hear thecanvases flapping backwards and
(17:21):
forwards as he're talking aboutthe first fleet and I'm thinking
is this safe?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
or yeah.
I mean, I remember Philiptalking about that later and
there's 6,000, 7,000 of us inthe circus tent, the biggest
circus tent that you could hirein Australia at the time and the
storm was wild and you weren'tsure if the tent was going to
make it through the night.
And you're thinking.
Well, he described it up.
(17:47):
I was speaking, I was teachingthe Bible, I was the chair of
the convention.
Should I say, stop halfwaythrough my Bible, talk everyone
go out, everybody, out,everybody out and I'm trying to
focus on my notes and trying tocommunicate Christ and got this
other conversation going on inmy head about what should we be
doing, and I think that was thelast year in the circus tent.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, it wasn't lack of courage that stopped.
It just wasn't available afterthat, and then we went and
extended the auditorium up thetop and yeah so.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But there was a.
I mean your memories, tony, Imean prophetic, bold Bible
teaching.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I remember some of John Chapman's talks, his talks
about holiness.
That ended up becoming someMatthias Media resources down
the track, actually the littlebook A Foot in Two Worlds and
from Sinner to Saint.
His talk on holiness in theChristian life, how not to be a
legalistic, perfectionisticholiness person, but how God
(18:45):
calls us to pursue holiness.
That was very life-changing forme in the mid to late 80s I
can't remember exactly when itwas.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, I can tell you, because it was 1986.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Was it.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And the Saturday night in 1986, john Chapman on
Hebrews 12, and the line was fixyour eyes on Jesus, the author
and perfecter of your faith, andrun with perseverance.
The race marked out for us, notgetting caught in the things
that hinder or the sins thatentangle.
(19:17):
And I mean I think I'd beenworking grace out, but I hadn't
worked out lordship.
And that moment in the tent, Ithought I was going out with a
non-Christian girl and behavingbadly with a non-Christian girl
(19:37):
and going out with her was athing that hindered and behaving
badly was a sin that entangledand behaving badly was a sin
that entangled, and John Chapmansaid the Christian life is not
a short sprint but along-distance race.
(19:58):
And fix your eyes on Jesus.
And the other thing he did was,he said, since we're surrounded
by such a great cloud ofwitnesses Now I now know there's
a context of Hebrews 11 and allthose saints, but at the time
it just felt like the 7,000people in the tent.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
They're all going to bear witness for you.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I just was.
I could take you to where I wassitting in that auditorium and
I heard the voice of God thatnight on the mountain in the we
now call it a car park, but inthat circus tent.
And it was two hours later thatI trusted Christ and sitting
with my friend Russell Powelltalking about what John had said
(20:44):
from Hebrews 12 that night.
And yeah, that holiness talkhas been published, and when you
published it I thought oh,there it is.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It's the power of the word, isn't it?
And that's as I look back overthe whole ministry.
That's the thing I'm moststruck by and thankful for and I
think changed me most is thetrust in and confidence in, if
you teach and preach what theword is really saying and you
make it clear by saying it's notsaying this and it's opposed to
that and it is saying this andthis is what it means for you.
It's life-changing, becauseGod's word is so powerful.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, I mean memory from you, Tracy Gale.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I have a lot of memories, I think for the
Leviticus talks on holinessreally struck me.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That was the same weekend, john Woodhouse, john
Woodhouse, that went over myhead.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, I think that was that profound sense of
holiness.
All of them are all sort ofmushed together.
I do remember being on Usteringand it was so wet we had to put
pallets out.
Here we are trying to deal withthe weather, so I don't know
whether that was the sameweekend as that one.
(21:53):
And I think the other time wasJohn Chapman speaking and we
lost power, but being struck bythe silence as we heard God's
word.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
As he tried to kind of shout, it just kept going, it
kept going.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
And he shouted, he spoke, and we heard a wonderful
message about Jesus.
So I think the other thing thatstrikes me about the whole
ministry too, is how it didbring people from everywhere
together, and so you met peoplefrom Baptist, church, anglican
(22:29):
churches, and so that unityaround the word of God was, I
think, quite significant for me,just meeting different people.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Let's talk the pastor's heart, because I mean
the three big guys there havebeen well, philip Jensen and
Paul Grimmond and Carl Matti.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
This is at CBS, yeah, at.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Campus Bible Study.
No, you missed one.
I don't mean me or Al or TracyCole Marshall, cole, marshall,
cole Marshall was huge in theMinistry of Campus Bible Study
and it wouldn't have been whatit was without Cole, because
it's almost like if you wantedto summarise these last 50 years
(23:13):
and what that ministry wasabout, it was a combination of
this powerful preaching and apeople focus.
That's all about training andthat was really what really Cole
brought to the ministry with.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Philip.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was almost the meshing together of classic
evangelical powerful preachingand personal discipleship
training via the Navigators thatCole came in.
It was kind of like the meshingof those two things.
It was part of the secret sauce, I think in some ways.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
So you needed to add in an extra.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It was the quiet talks with Cole.
You know the arm around theshoulder and I remember many of
those Likewise.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
yeah, and the pastoral heart.
Yes, that when, if you broke upwith your boyfriend, he was
there and working out how tohelp sort that out.
So yeah, no, you never broke upwith your….
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I never broke up, anyway, yeah, but yeah you're
right.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
You're right, absolutely.
What are you thankful for aboutPhilip Jensen in the pastor's?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
heart Many things Became a Christian.
Through his Bible teaching he'sreally been kind of showing me
how to live as a dad, as ahusband, in so many ways.
He married me to Kathy.
He baptised me on the same dayas my first child, put his hand
(24:33):
on my shoulder several timesabout going into ministry work,
so you know how long have yougot?
I think what's impressed meabout Phil is not just
entrepreneurial ability etcetera, but I know how soft he
is personally.
He really is a big sook andloves people and everything.
And yet the level of pain he'sbeen prepared to take to step up
(24:54):
and say hard things andconfront things and so on, and
so I know how much he hurts buthe still does what's necessary.
That's what really hasimpressed me.
Yeah, tracy, about me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Tracy About Philip.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Yeah, I think.
Well, he was the one who helpedme understand the gospel and so
very thankful for him beingwilling to do that.
I remember he came and did whatwas a dialogue meeting at
Goldstein and his personalnessin talking to us and modeling to
us.
How do you go about helpingsomeone know Jesus better and
(25:34):
what are the false views thatyou want to expose?
To help people recognize theyreally don't understand what a
Christian is.
People recognise they reallydon't understand what a
Christian is.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
So his sharpness and articulateness in helping us
know how to preach the gospel.
Yeah, tony, I'd echo both ofthose things.
I won't just say the same thingagain.
I'll try and say somethingdifferent.
I think for me, I alwaysappreciated how he taught the
Bible and read the Bible and washappy to go.
Taught the Bible and read theBible and was happy to go where
the Bible led him, even when itled him to not where he wanted
(26:14):
to go or led him to new thoughts.
It was his constant curiosityand trust in what was the Bible
really saying and then awillingness to actually change
and rethink what we were doingin light of that Because that's
really the story of the ministryis this constant rethinking and
relooking in light of whatwe're seeing in Scripture and in
(26:34):
light of what's happening, ofwhat we should do next.
And so this combination of akind of very strong conservative
we will not shift from what theBible is saying and yet this
constant inventive, creativereinventing of how to actually
do it along the way, in responseto the current conditions.
So, that combination in him isvery unusual.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Thank you so much for coming in Our guests today.
Al Stewart, tony Payne andTracy Gowing all of them
involved on the staff in one wayor another of the Campus
Ministry, campus Bible Study atthe University of New South
Wales.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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