July 15, 2025 • 31 mins
We evangelicals, says Richard Coekin, have a problem—and it’s a preaching problem.
Richard Coekin says we are too often careless—his word—when it comes to application in preaching.
We work hard on exegesis, we labour to understand the original context and the author’s intent—but then we stop short. We leave our congregations with sound doctrine, but little direction.
Richard has just concluded 29 years as senior pastor at Dundonald Church in London and as the founding leader of the Co-Mission network across the UK capital. He now heads up Reach UK.
Richard’s new book, Apply: How to Preach the Bible for Real Life, is about to be released—and today he joins us to explore why good application is not an optional extra, but the very purpose of preaching.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel and
evangelicals.
We have a problem.
That is what richard coken says.
Richard, for 29 years, wassenior pastor of dun donald
church in london and leader ofthe commission network across
the English capital.
He now heads up Reach UK.
Richard says we evangelicals ingeneral are shamelessly bad at
(00:33):
application.
Careless is his word.
He has a new book just about tobe released.
It's called Apply.
Now he's with us today on thePastor's Heart and, richard, it
is something that worries yourpastor's heart, how poor we are
at application.
It's nice to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I mean, I'm not ready to say all evangelicals have a
problem and I know the answer.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Just most of us.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
No, well, I'll speak for myself.
I think in the years ofpreaching, I think sometimes
we've been weak.
I've been weak in applying thebible to people.
That sounds like diplomaticenglish understatement.
It is.
It is one of the great.
It's funny when you, when youstep back from um, you know a
ministry after 29 years atdundonald and 17 at commission
(01:19):
um, you miss preaching everyweek.
Um, and I realize it's a bitlike cooking.
I mean, I I can't cook fortoffee, but you know cooking.
You prepare a meal for peoplethat you love and you labor away
at it and then sometimes theydon't appreciate it, they just
gobble it up.
But you know you want it to behealthy, you want it to be tasty
, you want to do people good,and I think it's a bit like that
(01:41):
you miss cooking for the familyevery week.
But I think that sometimes inour efforts to be accurate with
the text and we feel anxious notto manipulate people, to avoid
heavy shepherding, not to be toocoercive in our preaching, that
sort of thing, I thinksometimes we leave people bereft
(02:01):
of application.
There are lots of reasons forit, but I think it's a serious
issue in preaching, certainly inthe UK and probably in places
like Australia as well, so weleave people having had an
academic meal but not knowinghow to live.
Yes, I mean, there are differentkinds of preaching, aren't
there?
I mean, do you think?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
that this shapes our churches, that we end up with
evangelical churches full ofboffins and nerds and the
Pentecostals end up with wherethey are doing application, end
up with people who actually aretrying to apply it to their
lives but, on the other hand,are all bitsy in their thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, I'll come back to offending everybody later,
but to start with let's say thatthe purpose of the bible is
application.
Um, you know the reason god'sword is written is for salvation
through faith in christ jesus.
For for righteousness, you know, to equip us for every good
work.
Um, so that's what the purposeof the bible is, and it's the
(03:01):
purpose for preachers you knowwhat are preachers for?
2 Timothy 4, is to rebuke,correct, correct rebuke, and
train in righteousness.
And in other words, the purposeof a preacher is to bring the
scriptures to bear upon thepeople listening.
And actually people aredesperate for application,
because most people find it hardto go from principle to
(03:24):
practice.
In a moment they're oftencoming to a text they haven't
had the chance to read.
The preacher's been preparingall week or has been thinking
about it for years, and so thecongregation sitting in front of
us are desperate to know.
So what do I do with what you'vejust said?
How do I live by it?
I want to please my Lord.
How do I live by what you'vejust told me?
And actually that then cashesout in all sorts of ways.
(03:46):
If we're not applying thescriptures, then we don't know
how to talk to non-Christiansabout the benefits of our faith.
We're just dumping theology onpeople, Bible statements on
people, and haven't worked outhow it applies into their lives.
So I think it affects ourevangelism.
I think it goes further thanthat.
If you're not good at applying,we won't get to good
(04:09):
conclusions.
That is basically doctrine andwe can despise doctrine and
church history, despise ministrypractice.
All the implications of God'sword can be truncated if we
don't see the importance ofapplication.
So should I keep going?
Don't see the importance ofapplication, so should I keep
going?
So it's interesting, isn't it?
The apostle says to um titus andtitus to teach what accords
(04:30):
with sound doctrine.
So don't just teach sounddoctrine, teach what accords
with sound doctrine.
And then proceeds to do so inchapter two.
He runs through a household increte applying sound doctrine to
the behaviours that he knewfrom his mission time there.
And so he's saying you know tothe women, you know to be sober.
(04:50):
He's not suggesting that menhave no problem with being sober
, but he knew in Crete that wasan issue for the people there.
And so he runs through thehousehold and applies sound
doctrine to the lives of thepeople in terms of practical
behaviour.
And I've been worried bysuggestions that we don't need
to do this, that the Bibleapplies itself.
You know that you don'tactually need to work at trying
(05:13):
to apply the Bible to the peoplein front of you.
I think it's quite dangerous andin my travels I think we needed
over the last 30 years weneeded the pendulum to swing
back away from sort of topical,isolated verses, taking them out
of context and making up whatwe want to do.
We need to swing back tocareful attention, to the
(05:35):
evident human authorialintention in the books of the
Bible to work at why was thewriter writing this, what was
writing, so on.
But if you go too far and youonly do that and then don't then
draw out what are theimplications of the text, the
necessary implication of thetext for life, you end up with
commentary sermons that areboring and dull, difficult for
(05:58):
normal ordinary people to access, very academic, I think people
get frustrated.
I think sometimes then theyactually move to other churches
where the teaching is actuallyterrible because not much
attention has been given to whatthe word is saying, but at
least they can understand whatthey're supposed to do as a
result.
So I think there's an urgentneed for reformed evangelicals
(06:19):
who care about God's word towork with application.
I was in Rwanda and in Nairobiand Kenya with networks that
have really embraced carefulexegesis of the Bible.
But they were saying to mepeople are saying we're boring
now and I was thinking this istragic, and one of them said to
(06:44):
me I think that we've swung toofar, that we're just giving
people academic commentary youknow, observations of the text
and not drawing conclusions forpeople's lives, the necessary
implications of the text forpeople's lives.
Do you want to say more?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I mean, I'm just thinking.
I spent so long just trying tounderstand the text, then I run
out of time to think about.
Well, what does it mean?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And I think that's one of the dangers is because it
necessarily applicationnecessarily comes at the end of
your preparation process andalso your preaching time.
It often gets left off Ifyou're a pastor under pressure,
do you?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
also find that I find that I can spend time wrestling
during the week with what doesthis text mean?
But it's actually only in the12, 18 hours before I actually
stand up that my head iscompletely in the mind of the
person who's going to be comingon Sunday.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah well, I think there's a number of things here.
Firstly, if we don't startearly enough Look, let's get
real.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Pastors are extremely busy, Lots is expected of them,
and I've got all these peoplesaying the kingdom will fall if
you don't do this now.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So I don't want to say that, but I do think if
we're not, in our heads,convinced that the people need
our applications, then we'llspend what time we've got
entirely upon exegesis, readingmore commentaries and more text
work and I'm saying, look,whatever time we've got, leave
time for working out.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
How much time?
How much percentage?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, you know, I would say in my context I need
for a new sermon on a familiarbook.
I'm going to need 10 hours toprepare a sermon, yeah, but
quite often you've only got fiveor six hours.
I mean, the reality is no onewould admit it I've only got
five hours.
And so what happens is youspend your five hours on your
commentary work and and actuallythat's not enough time.
(08:37):
So I need to be fighting and Ineed to talk to my elders about
how can I get out of somemeetings, talk to my staff team,
how can I get out of somemeetings.
So I've got a whole day and ahalf and I know one godly
colleague of mine decided thatbecause he was just couldn't get
himself to, um, uh, finish hisexegesis to get on an
application, he decided that hewould make a discipline for
(08:59):
himself.
He had to finish his exegesisby thursday evening so he would
then have friday morning to workon the application and then get
, get his outlines in for forthe, for the ops team to produce
, you know, the PowerPoint andthe.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Do you think there's a?
Can you make some statementsabout where we get?
I mean, you've talked aboutevangelicals everywhere, but
give us some generalisations.
You've given us a bit of ageneralisation about some of the
problems in Africa.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I'm the master of generalisation, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Give us some generalisations about problems
in the UK, problems in Australia.
Well, I think to take, Becausethey're different.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think yes, I mean to take Philip Jensen's very
helpful analogy of an arrow.
You know you've got the.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The archer and the arrow.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
The archer and the arrow, so the sermon being like
an arrow.
I can't remember what he said,but the way I use it, and misuse
it, no doubt.
But anyway, the way I would say, don't worry about him.
Um, great man, um, the feathersare the doctrine, that steer,
you know it's the introductionto your sermon is, you know
where are we?
And um, that's your sort of, um, hermeneutical, hermeneutical
(10:02):
spiral thing.
You know, that's my worldview,my biblical worldview as it
comes to the text didn't mean tosay this, he meant he should
have said it quite right, soanyway if the feathers of the
doctrine then introduce it andthen the shaft of the, of the
arrow I feel like your time inthe text, and then the arrow is
the application, which is thepoint of the whole sermon I
think that's pretty much what hedid say well, he should have
sometimes the the arrow wasthicker and sometimes thinner
(10:23):
well, I think I would say youknow to generalize and offend
everybody.
then, um, you know, some of myreformformed and Independent
brothers have very big, thefeathers are very big lots and
lots of doctrine andintroduction and then a little
bit of text time in the text andthen almost no application,
because you spent all your timein the sermon and probably in
(10:43):
your preparation in the doctrineintroduction.
And then you've got your sortof Anglican evangelicals, you
know much more disciplined, andthey've got almost no feathers
because they don't really careabout doctrine.
And then they've got your sortof Anglican evangelicals, you
know much more disciplined, andthey've got almost no feathers
because they don't really careabout doctrine.
And then they've got the wholelength of time is in the text,
which is really reallyinteresting because you're
spending time on the specificsof the Bible, and then again the
arrow is tiny, so there's noapplication.
(11:03):
So if the first one is soundbut dull, the second one is
interesting but irrelevantbecause you don't know how it
applies.
And then you've got our morecharismatic brothers, um, who?
are more big head on the frontmore focused on the you know
needs centered.
So you know, very, very fewfeathers, very little shaft and
a massive great arrow arrow.
So it feels incredibly excitingbecause it's all about me, it's
(11:25):
very, very relevant.
It's just wrong.
Now that's to offend.
Now I think I've offendedeverybody.
So, um, I think what we want todo is we do need to be reading
around the topic and it's hardto do that week by week.
That's why you want to delegatesermons to other people and
have reading.
You know, have time off for areading week and all that stuff.
Do what you can read during thesermon during the holidays.
Um, you need some doctoralintroduction.
(11:46):
I would normally want the topic, that is, the topic that this
where will this land?
You do your introduction last,uh, so you work through, work
out applications and then formout where will this cash out?
So the opening question is haveyou wondered where you know
does ever strike you that youknow?
What would you say is thisbecause you know that's where
the sermon's going to go?
And then you give your broadercontext, that is, your doctrinal
and biblical, theological thing.
(12:08):
Uh, introduction to the topicthat this will address.
Then the specific context tothis text where it is in the
book, and then you're dividingup the sermon into the points
that the text provides.
But you've got to leave time atthe end of each point and at
the end of the sermon to applythis to the lives of the people
in front of you.
And one of the reasons why Icome to church and sit at the
(12:29):
back rather than at the front isbecause I want to remind myself
of who all the people are thatI'll be preaching to.
And even if you've got a biggercongregation, you don't know
everybody.
The truth is, if I'm a guestpreacher or whatever, I'll be
turning around and staring atpeople for quite a long period.
You know, embarrassing.
I'm trying to work out who areyou, who are the people who are
not singing because they're notChristians, or who are the
people who are crying becausethey're in the midst of grief.
(12:51):
And, of course, when you knowyour congregation, you think, oh
yes, she's just had a seriousoperation.
Oh yes, her mum's just died.
And you're reminding yourselfof the people that you're
speaking to.
So often if there's someone Idon't know, I don't recognise.
They look like anon-Christianristian, I mean.
Often they turn out to be theprincipal of barber college.
But you know, they look like anon-christian um, and you're
(13:12):
kind of thinking I I need topreach to to them and so as I'm
preaching I'll be thinking aboutthem and try and translate, say
it again with that person inmind, think I know that sounds
really weird, but I think Ithink what I'm trying to say is
this and you're speaking to himand it's almost like with with
young preachers when they comeout of college, often as curates
.
You know, at first they'repreaching into there, they're
(13:32):
giving a talk, then they'regiving a talk for the senior
pastor or the elders, thenthey're giving a talk for
whoever functions as theexpository police in your church
.
You know the people you'reworried are going to give you
grief because you've gotsomething wrong and then
eventually you start fightingfor the souls of the people in
front of you.
And that's when you become apreacher and it's like I mean I
asked your wonderful ArchbishopKanishka in front of our staff
(13:56):
team about you know what ispreaching and he started out
saying preaching.
I can't remember exactly, but Idid ring him up to check.
We've misquoted a few people.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, yeah, let's misquote him as well.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Actually I did ring, think he's preaching.
And he said something like, um,preaching is, um, it was
expounding the holy word of god.
And then there was a gap and myheart sank thinking oh no, not,
another guy is just going tosay, it's just declaring the
word of god into the air.
And he said to the people infront of you so they might live
by faith in the lord jesuschrist, be holy and live godly
lives.
I thought, hallelujah, yeah,that is he's.
You know, there is anexperienced godly preacher
saying I'm preaching the word ofgod to people, to people.
(14:35):
And actually I want to say gofurther.
It's not just about beingfunctionally good.
Um, I actually think it goesfurther than that.
It's interesting in nehemiah 8,in the great revival by the
water gate, where ezra, you knowthere's been this great
revivalhemiah has completed thebuilding of the walls In 52 days
.
They've gathered to hear theword of God and their weeping is
(14:55):
to hear the word of God.
It's interesting that we'retold that, as three things
happened Ezra read thescriptures, then Ezra clarified
the text, which people thinkmeans possibly including
translation for those whoseHebrew had lapsed.
And then, thirdly, gave themeaning.
The three things, the threelittle phrases, the gave.
(15:17):
The meaning word is the wordparash, which the Hebrews use
for some of their practicalcommentaries on what to do with
the scriptures.
It's the word used in numberswhat do we do with this guy who
sinned?
It's the application so thepeople could understand.
In other words, understandingis not just reading the bible
and explaining the bible.
You actually need applicationto understand, and I think the
(15:39):
reason why that is is if youdon't explain what this will
mean in practice, peopleactually don't understand what
the words meant.
See, if you just use wordsconceptually, you've got to give
them concrete content forpeople to understand even what
the word means.
It's actually meaning.
Application is part of meaning.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Now you're saying application is what the Bible is
written for.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It's what it's written for, it's what the
preacher is for, it's whatcongregations desperately need
and it's not.
I mean, there's a story.
It's apocryphal and I don'tknow, but I'm going to tell it
anyway.
There's a story about JohnChapman, the great Australian
evangelist and preacher,visiting London and working in
the office of his great friendDick Lucas, founder of the
(16:25):
Proclamation Trust, you know,father of preaching in London.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So far, I'm sure you're telling the truth.
Yeah, so far it's all true.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Anyway, they're working in the office and John
told me that he came out duringthe coffee breaks.
And completely differentcharacters.
You know John, loud Australian,dick, very private in English
and Dick is still with us.
So, um, uh, you know a greatman in the lord, he probably
won't listen to this, but um,anyway, uh, john would say to
him so how are you doing,brother?
how you doing, brother yeah, andum, dick would say I'm
(16:52):
struggling, I'm struggling andum, so what are you working?
You know I'm just working on mytalk for for sunday evening.
So what struggling.
It came out day after you know,like two or three days still
struggling.
What he's struggling?
John had written three talks bythis time.
He says what are you strugglingwith?
He says John, chapter 10.
You know Jesus, the GoodShepherd.
And John said how can you bestruggling with that?
You must have preached on thata thousand times.
(17:13):
He said come on mate.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Why are you struggling with that?
Dick said oh no, no, I knowwhat the words mean.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I'm trying to work out what they mean for the
evening congregation.
Yeah, in other words, he waswrestling with not just the
words.
Say what will they mean for thelives of the people in front of
him?
He was wrestling with that andI think you know we've had a
generation who think that if youjust repeat what the text says,
that is preaching.
And I think you know obviouslythere's a wonderful warning for
(17:44):
you know, comfort for chrisderash in his book on preaching,
where he says, um, that wecan't be the world's expert on
every aspect of culture.
We can't be the world's aspect,you know, and everything, but
we can still live amongst ourpeople and try and give them an
introduction to where would thispassage hit their, their lives,
(18:04):
to be thinking about thedifferent kinds of people in
front of you, different agegroups and so on.
We can make a start.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I mean, just as you say, that I feel like some of my
preacher friends are verydisconnected to the real lives
that their members are living.
Connected to the real livesthat their members are living?
Yeah, and even I was saying toone guy a couple of days ago,
how are you consuming the news?
(18:32):
And really he isn't.
Yeah, and I was thinking,actually most of the adults that
he's talking to on Sundaymorning are going to be reading,
whether it's the Herald or theFinancial Review or something
like that, but they're going tobe seriously engaged in where
his congregation is and he'skind of living in a bubble.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Well, let's talk about this because I mean, you
are somebody who's very engagedwith and very knowledgeable
about contemporary life.
Yeah, some characters aspreachers are brilliant at
listening to, listening topodcasts and they, you know,
they read the week and they knoweverything and I think that's
great.
It really, really helps andlet's just acknowledge it helps
rather than saying it doesn'thelp.
But not all of us are very goodat consuming news and some of
(19:16):
us aren't brilliant, you know,of course it's helpful when
you've got teenage kids and, uh,young adults and still in the
home and they can tell you tochat through things.
It's great to have a wife, tohave a wife you can talk through
.
It's interesting with ThabitiAnyabwile, who's a great Bible
preacher, expositor inWashington.
He said he presents two kindsof outlines to his wife in the
(19:37):
middle of the week.
I mean she's a great teacher inher own right, christy, but she
sort of helps him think throughhow this would apply.
So maybe you've got resourcesat home.
There are, of course, resourcesin the text itself.
There may be great truth.
I mean, most of the Bible isabout God, it's not about us.
So just to clarify byapplication I don't mean find
something for us to do?
I mean draw out the necessaryimplications of the text, which
(19:59):
will often just be trust God,he's amazing, or proclaim Jesus,
he's beautiful.
So a lot of it will be aboutsomeone.
Sometimes there'll be things,implications for our lives.
But there may be clues in thetext, commands to obey great
doctrines, to celebrate, butalso think about the people in
front of you.
How do you get help with that?
I think if you're not really intouch with the news and you
(20:23):
don't know much about it, thenit's worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It's not just news, but that's just one aspect of
life.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, I think, to be real about it, one of the things
you could do is well, look, whydon't we you've just heard the
sermon why not put five minutesaside for people to talk to each
other about how this sermonapplies?
So you might acknowledge thatas a preacher, you're not very
in touch.
But don't spend all the timeavailable you've got you know on
expanding the text and leave noroom for what does this mean
(20:51):
for our daily lives?
So if you know you're weak, youknow, if you're 67 and haven't
watched TV and it can't read, Idon't know.
You know, if you're struggling,then it might be that you do
your small group program thenspends time applying what
they've heard in your sermonsmidweek because you just don't
want to leave the word of Godleft in the air unapplied.
So it may be you have to lookto other people.
(21:13):
It may be you need to talk toyour staff team.
You know, ring up a youngercolleague and say look this
thing on, I don't know.
Autonomy and accountability toGod.
Where do you think that affectsyour generation?
You know, my younger colleaguesoften have brilliant insights
into how this applies.
You know, and I just say youknow, where can I find some help
(21:35):
on that and they go click,click, click and send you some
podcast or a little doctrine ora paragraph or something.
So work as a team, don't justwork on your own.
I mean, murray Capel has writtena brilliant book called the
Heart is the Target, and I thinkyou know it's the more solid
version of what I will bewriting.
(21:56):
I don't mean solid and negative, I just mean it's a slightly
more deeper book, bigger book.
My only disagreement with himslightly is he has a whole
chapter on the life of thepreacher and talks about you
know, having deep wells.
And of course he's right thatthe deeper you live as a human
being, you know, the moreengaged and you know with life,
(22:20):
the more you will have to drawupon both spiritually as a
Christian but also as a normalhuman being.
And that's true, though I dowant to say it's a bit of a
council of despair, though.
If I've got to be the personwho knows and knows everything,
I think that would be more true.
I'm not really bought into this.
The sermon comes through thepreacher entirely, as if God is
(22:42):
speaking through the preacher.
I think God is speaking throughthe preacher.
I think God is speaking throughhis word.
Now, of course, as I explainthe word, so as I apply that, I
am mediating the knowledge ofthe scriptures to the person in
front of them.
Except that where people havegot their own Bibles in front of
them, hopefully on the screenthey can see it, or in their
hands, it's not just through thepreacher, you know, the
(23:03):
listener can also see the wordsfor themselves and can interpret
the Bible for themselves.
So I just want to take a littlebit of a load off the preacher
that it's not, you know, ifyou're a sinner and a hypocrite,
like we all are to some degree,that your congregation is lost.
Thankfully, god still speaksthrough his word.
You know the quality of thepreacher does not condemn the
(23:23):
congregation, otherwise you knowwe're all lost.
So I just want to lower thetone a little on that, because I
think people can read the wordfor themselves and wonderfully
often say things and concludethings that you didn't say.
But we have got to leave time inour preparation and in our
preaching and I think, thinkactually would mean that if we
(23:45):
had a bit more application,sometimes the pressures on us to
only speak for 25 minutes wouldturn into no, no, you can have
35 minutes because you're usingthe extra time to help us all
live by it and we're seeing thepractical realities of it.
I could listen to you longerbecause you're not giving me the
finer points of the greeksyntax.
You're actually helping me liveby it.
So I think we need to leavesome of our workings in the
(24:08):
study to go back to the hours.
If I have only got five hoursto prepare a sermon, you're not
going to be very deep and you'renot going to have good
applications.
So you do need to think aboutbuilding ministry teams,
delegating ministries, not beingin some meetings, letting other
people run ministries, so thatyou can get yourself back to the
10 hours and then, every sooften, try and give yourself a
(24:31):
week.
You know, read a book over thesummer holidays, get yourself
into a couple of books so thatyou can come in at a high level
of understanding of a book asyou're going on.
But you've got to apply.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Apply.
You said earlier that there wasa reluctance to apply because
people might see that I'm heavyshepherding.
Yeah, just unpack that for me.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, there is a danger of going too far in
application, and there's plentyof examples of that online.
You know where you get someself-proclaimed bishop online
telling people what to do withtheir lives.
You know, sell your tvs andsend the money to me.
Um, well, the bible text doesnot say that.
So, um, of course we need todraw back from um inventing
(25:18):
things, that that is badapplication.
But you don't want to throw thebaby out with the bathwater,
therefore have no application.
So we want to work out goodapplication.
Um, you know where are theclues for the response required
to this text, both within thetext elsewhere in the bible
where that text is used, alludedto or quoted.
How is this fulfilled in christand what will that mean for me
(25:40):
as a christian?
But don't stop with what doesit say.
Keep going with what does itmean for my life?
Because that is the purpose ofthe text and that's what you're
there as a preacher to do, Imean, in the end.
For example, why do we botherwith preachers?
You know, why would we botherwith preachers at all?
I mean, why did Paul write 2Timothy 4?
(26:01):
Why didn't he just stop with 2Timothy 3?
Hand out the Bibles for half anhour and let people read the
Bibles on their own.
You know, if the Bible is forthese things, what do you need a
preacher for?
Paul didn't finish with 2Timothy 3.
He then goes to 2 Timothy 4,because the purpose of the
preacher is the same as thepurpose of the text.
So the preacher enables thepurpose of the text, that is, it
might be, rebuking, correcting,training in righteousness,
(26:24):
equipping us for good works.
That's why every congregationneeds its own preacher.
That's why the particularpreacher who lives amongst his
people is more valuable, eventhan a great preacher like John
Piper or Tim Keller being beamedin.
Why don't we just not havepreachers?
Save a whole lot of money,spend it on musicians and just
beam in great sermons from JohnChapman or two Great preachers.
(26:46):
And I'm not saying there's novalue in that.
It's great to hear, you know, amasterful preacher from the
other side of the world, it'sgreat to listen, but you often
find when the guest preacherdoesn't actually have much
impact in a local church?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
They don't know me.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
They don't know life in this congregation.
They don't know me.
They don't know life in thiscongregation.
They don't know what it's liketo live here in Annandale.
Yeah, and that's why anordinary preacher amongst his
people is more valuable andprecious than a great preacher
from afar.
That's not to say there's novalue in listening to the great
guy, but he doesn't know whatit's like living here in this
new cell.
So for those ordinary preachersout there thinking, well, I
(27:23):
can't do it like them.
Yeah, you're more precious toyour people, more valuable to
your people because you liveamongst them.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Don't then.
And they can see your life,they can see you trying to live
this out, they can see the wayyou're relating with your wife.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So don't then fail to tell them how you're trying to
live this out.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Don't then fail to tell them how you're trying to
live this out and actually sharehow I'm trying to live this
passage.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We don't want too much chat about ourselves and we
don't want to bleed all overeverybody with our sins all the
time.
But honesty, you know, is good,I do think.
Sharing with the congregationto use we rather than you, you
know.
I wonder whether we need tohear this.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
You don't want to be accusing us.
I'll get my script and then Iwill go search for the word you,
and almost every time I can seethat word you, I change it to
we.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I would do that.
So I want to sit next to myaudience and hold the Bible with
them and say, brother andsister, isn't this marvellous?
I think this means this, and Ithink what that means for us.
I'm sitting next to themlooking at the.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I want to be not the prophet standing next to God,
but I want to be the personstanding next to the
congregation.
You know if I've got the Bible?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
behind me and I'm preaching at you.
If I've got the Bible behind meand I'm preaching at you, it's
creating distance between me andyou.
I don't think I've got theBible.
All right, I'm sitting next toyou reading the Bible together.
What is God saying to us?
Us, even if you'renon-Christians.
People say what aboutnon-Christians?
I still want to say look forthose of us here this morning
who don when we weren'tChristians is can I encourage us
to keep reading?
You know you're talking in weand us.
(29:06):
For as long as you can.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
There's lots more to say.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Richard Gokin has been my guest.
Richard has a new book justabout to be released.
The book is called Apply Now.
It'll be released through theGood Book Company.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel and
evangelicals.
We have a problem.
That is what richard coken says.
Richard, for 29 years, wassenior pastor of dun donald
church in london and leader ofthe commission network across
the English capital.
He now heads up Reach UK.
Richard says we evangelicals ingeneral are shamelessly bad at
(00:33):
application.
Careless is his word.
He has a new book just about tobe released.
It's called Apply.
Now he's with us today on thePastor's Heart and, richard, it
is something that worries yourpastor's heart, how poor we are
at application.
It's nice to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I mean, I'm not ready to say all evangelicals have a
problem and I know the answer.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Just most of us.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
No, well, I'll speak for myself.
I think in the years ofpreaching, I think sometimes
we've been weak.
I've been weak in applying thebible to people.
That sounds like diplomaticenglish understatement.
It is.
It is one of the great.
It's funny when you, when youstep back from um, you know a
ministry after 29 years atdundonald and 17 at commission
(01:19):
um, you miss preaching everyweek.
Um, and I realize it's a bitlike cooking.
I mean, I I can't cook fortoffee, but you know cooking.
You prepare a meal for peoplethat you love and you labor away
at it and then sometimes theydon't appreciate it, they just
gobble it up.
But you know you want it to behealthy, you want it to be tasty
, you want to do people good,and I think it's a bit like that
(01:41):
you miss cooking for the familyevery week.
But I think that sometimes inour efforts to be accurate with
the text and we feel anxious notto manipulate people, to avoid
heavy shepherding, not to be toocoercive in our preaching, that
sort of thing, I thinksometimes we leave people bereft
(02:01):
of application.
There are lots of reasons forit, but I think it's a serious
issue in preaching, certainly inthe UK and probably in places
like Australia as well, so weleave people having had an
academic meal but not knowinghow to live.
Yes, I mean, there are differentkinds of preaching, aren't
there?
I mean, do you think?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
that this shapes our churches, that we end up with
evangelical churches full ofboffins and nerds and the
Pentecostals end up with wherethey are doing application, end
up with people who actually aretrying to apply it to their
lives but, on the other hand,are all bitsy in their thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, I'll come back to offending everybody later,
but to start with let's say thatthe purpose of the bible is
application.
Um, you know the reason god'sword is written is for salvation
through faith in christ jesus.
For for righteousness, you know, to equip us for every good
work.
Um, so that's what the purposeof the bible is, and it's the
(03:01):
purpose for preachers you knowwhat are preachers for?
2 Timothy 4, is to rebuke,correct, correct rebuke, and
train in righteousness.
And in other words, the purposeof a preacher is to bring the
scriptures to bear upon thepeople listening.
And actually people aredesperate for application,
because most people find it hardto go from principle to
(03:24):
practice.
In a moment they're oftencoming to a text they haven't
had the chance to read.
The preacher's been preparingall week or has been thinking
about it for years, and so thecongregation sitting in front of
us are desperate to know.
So what do I do with what you'vejust said?
How do I live by it?
I want to please my Lord.
How do I live by what you'vejust told me?
And actually that then cashesout in all sorts of ways.
(03:46):
If we're not applying thescriptures, then we don't know
how to talk to non-Christiansabout the benefits of our faith.
We're just dumping theology onpeople, Bible statements on
people, and haven't worked outhow it applies into their lives.
So I think it affects ourevangelism.
I think it goes further thanthat.
If you're not good at applying,we won't get to good
(04:09):
conclusions.
That is basically doctrine andwe can despise doctrine and
church history, despise ministrypractice.
All the implications of God'sword can be truncated if we
don't see the importance ofapplication.
So should I keep going?
Don't see the importance ofapplication, so should I keep
going?
So it's interesting, isn't it?
The apostle says to um titus andtitus to teach what accords
(04:30):
with sound doctrine.
So don't just teach sounddoctrine, teach what accords
with sound doctrine.
And then proceeds to do so inchapter two.
He runs through a household increte applying sound doctrine to
the behaviours that he knewfrom his mission time there.
And so he's saying you know tothe women, you know to be sober.
(04:50):
He's not suggesting that menhave no problem with being sober
, but he knew in Crete that wasan issue for the people there.
And so he runs through thehousehold and applies sound
doctrine to the lives of thepeople in terms of practical
behaviour.
And I've been worried bysuggestions that we don't need
to do this, that the Bibleapplies itself.
You know that you don'tactually need to work at trying
(05:13):
to apply the Bible to the peoplein front of you.
I think it's quite dangerous andin my travels I think we needed
over the last 30 years weneeded the pendulum to swing
back away from sort of topical,isolated verses, taking them out
of context and making up whatwe want to do.
We need to swing back tocareful attention, to the
(05:35):
evident human authorialintention in the books of the
Bible to work at why was thewriter writing this, what was
writing, so on.
But if you go too far and youonly do that and then don't then
draw out what are theimplications of the text, the
necessary implication of thetext for life, you end up with
commentary sermons that areboring and dull, difficult for
(05:58):
normal ordinary people to access, very academic, I think people
get frustrated.
I think sometimes then theyactually move to other churches
where the teaching is actuallyterrible because not much
attention has been given to whatthe word is saying, but at
least they can understand whatthey're supposed to do as a
result.
So I think there's an urgentneed for reformed evangelicals
(06:19):
who care about God's word towork with application.
I was in Rwanda and in Nairobiand Kenya with networks that
have really embraced carefulexegesis of the Bible.
But they were saying to mepeople are saying we're boring
now and I was thinking this istragic, and one of them said to
(06:44):
me I think that we've swung toofar, that we're just giving
people academic commentary youknow, observations of the text
and not drawing conclusions forpeople's lives, the necessary
implications of the text forpeople's lives.
Do you want to say more?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I mean, I'm just thinking.
I spent so long just trying tounderstand the text, then I run
out of time to think about.
Well, what does it mean?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And I think that's one of the dangers is because it
necessarily applicationnecessarily comes at the end of
your preparation process andalso your preaching time.
It often gets left off Ifyou're a pastor under pressure,
do you?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
also find that I find that I can spend time wrestling
during the week with what doesthis text mean?
But it's actually only in the12, 18 hours before I actually
stand up that my head iscompletely in the mind of the
person who's going to be comingon Sunday.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah well, I think there's a number of things here.
Firstly, if we don't startearly enough Look, let's get
real.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Pastors are extremely busy, Lots is expected of them,
and I've got all these peoplesaying the kingdom will fall if
you don't do this now.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So I don't want to say that, but I do think if
we're not, in our heads,convinced that the people need
our applications, then we'llspend what time we've got
entirely upon exegesis, readingmore commentaries and more text
work and I'm saying, look,whatever time we've got, leave
time for working out.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
How much time?
How much percentage?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, you know, I would say in my context I need
for a new sermon on a familiarbook.
I'm going to need 10 hours toprepare a sermon, yeah, but
quite often you've only got fiveor six hours.
I mean, the reality is no onewould admit it I've only got
five hours.
And so what happens is youspend your five hours on your
commentary work and and actuallythat's not enough time.
(08:37):
So I need to be fighting and Ineed to talk to my elders about
how can I get out of somemeetings, talk to my staff team,
how can I get out of somemeetings.
So I've got a whole day and ahalf and I know one godly
colleague of mine decided thatbecause he was just couldn't get
himself to, um, uh, finish hisexegesis to get on an
application, he decided that hewould make a discipline for
(08:59):
himself.
He had to finish his exegesisby thursday evening so he would
then have friday morning to workon the application and then get
, get his outlines in for forthe, for the ops team to produce
, you know, the PowerPoint andthe.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Do you think there's a?
Can you make some statementsabout where we get?
I mean, you've talked aboutevangelicals everywhere, but
give us some generalisations.
You've given us a bit of ageneralisation about some of the
problems in Africa.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I'm the master of generalisation, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Give us some generalisations about problems
in the UK, problems in Australia.
Well, I think to take, Becausethey're different.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think yes, I mean to take Philip Jensen's very
helpful analogy of an arrow.
You know you've got the.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The archer and the arrow.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
The archer and the arrow, so the sermon being like
an arrow.
I can't remember what he said,but the way I use it, and misuse
it, no doubt.
But anyway, the way I would say, don't worry about him.
Um, great man, um, the feathersare the doctrine, that steer,
you know it's the introductionto your sermon is, you know
where are we?
And um, that's your sort of, um, hermeneutical, hermeneutical
(10:02):
spiral thing.
You know, that's my worldview,my biblical worldview as it
comes to the text didn't mean tosay this, he meant he should
have said it quite right, soanyway if the feathers of the
doctrine then introduce it andthen the shaft of the, of the
arrow I feel like your time inthe text, and then the arrow is
the application, which is thepoint of the whole sermon I
think that's pretty much what hedid say well, he should have
sometimes the the arrow wasthicker and sometimes thinner
(10:23):
well, I think I would say youknow to generalize and offend
everybody.
then, um, you know, some of myreformformed and Independent
brothers have very big, thefeathers are very big lots and
lots of doctrine andintroduction and then a little
bit of text time in the text andthen almost no application,
because you spent all your timein the sermon and probably in
(10:43):
your preparation in the doctrineintroduction.
And then you've got your sortof Anglican evangelicals, you
know much more disciplined, andthey've got almost no feathers
because they don't really careabout doctrine.
And then they've got your sortof Anglican evangelicals, you
know much more disciplined, andthey've got almost no feathers
because they don't really careabout doctrine.
And then they've got the wholelength of time is in the text,
which is really reallyinteresting because you're
spending time on the specificsof the Bible, and then again the
arrow is tiny, so there's noapplication.
(11:03):
So if the first one is soundbut dull, the second one is
interesting but irrelevantbecause you don't know how it
applies.
And then you've got our morecharismatic brothers, um, who?
are more big head on the frontmore focused on the you know
needs centered.
So you know, very, very fewfeathers, very little shaft and
a massive great arrow arrow.
So it feels incredibly excitingbecause it's all about me, it's
(11:25):
very, very relevant.
It's just wrong.
Now that's to offend.
Now I think I've offendedeverybody.
So, um, I think what we want todo is we do need to be reading
around the topic and it's hardto do that week by week.
That's why you want to delegatesermons to other people and
have reading.
You know, have time off for areading week and all that stuff.
Do what you can read during thesermon during the holidays.
Um, you need some doctoralintroduction.
(11:46):
I would normally want the topic, that is, the topic that this
where will this land?
You do your introduction last,uh, so you work through, work
out applications and then formout where will this cash out?
So the opening question is haveyou wondered where you know
does ever strike you that youknow?
What would you say is thisbecause you know that's where
the sermon's going to go?
And then you give your broadercontext, that is, your doctrinal
and biblical, theological thing.
(12:08):
Uh, introduction to the topicthat this will address.
Then the specific context tothis text where it is in the
book, and then you're dividingup the sermon into the points
that the text provides.
But you've got to leave time atthe end of each point and at
the end of the sermon to applythis to the lives of the people
in front of you.
And one of the reasons why Icome to church and sit at the
(12:29):
back rather than at the front isbecause I want to remind myself
of who all the people are thatI'll be preaching to.
And even if you've got a biggercongregation, you don't know
everybody.
The truth is, if I'm a guestpreacher or whatever, I'll be
turning around and staring atpeople for quite a long period.
You know, embarrassing.
I'm trying to work out who areyou, who are the people who are
not singing because they're notChristians, or who are the
people who are crying becausethey're in the midst of grief.
(12:51):
And, of course, when you knowyour congregation, you think, oh
yes, she's just had a seriousoperation.
Oh yes, her mum's just died.
And you're reminding yourselfof the people that you're
speaking to.
So often if there's someone Idon't know, I don't recognise.
They look like anon-Christianristian, I mean.
Often they turn out to be theprincipal of barber college.
But you know, they look like anon-christian um, and you're
(13:12):
kind of thinking I I need topreach to to them and so as I'm
preaching I'll be thinking aboutthem and try and translate, say
it again with that person inmind, think I know that sounds
really weird, but I think Ithink what I'm trying to say is
this and you're speaking to himand it's almost like with with
young preachers when they comeout of college, often as curates
.
You know, at first they'repreaching into there, they're
(13:32):
giving a talk, then they'regiving a talk for the senior
pastor or the elders, thenthey're giving a talk for
whoever functions as theexpository police in your church
.
You know the people you'reworried are going to give you
grief because you've gotsomething wrong and then
eventually you start fightingfor the souls of the people in
front of you.
And that's when you become apreacher and it's like I mean I
asked your wonderful ArchbishopKanishka in front of our staff
(13:56):
team about you know what ispreaching and he started out
saying preaching.
I can't remember exactly, but Idid ring him up to check.
We've misquoted a few people.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, yeah, let's misquote him as well.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Actually I did ring, think he's preaching.
And he said something like, um,preaching is, um, it was
expounding the holy word of god.
And then there was a gap and myheart sank thinking oh no, not,
another guy is just going tosay, it's just declaring the
word of god into the air.
And he said to the people infront of you so they might live
by faith in the lord jesuschrist, be holy and live godly
lives.
I thought, hallelujah, yeah,that is he's.
You know, there is anexperienced godly preacher
saying I'm preaching the word ofgod to people, to people.
(14:35):
And actually I want to say gofurther.
It's not just about beingfunctionally good.
Um, I actually think it goesfurther than that.
It's interesting in nehemiah 8,in the great revival by the
water gate, where ezra, you knowthere's been this great
revivalhemiah has completed thebuilding of the walls In 52 days
.
They've gathered to hear theword of God and their weeping is
(14:55):
to hear the word of God.
It's interesting that we'retold that, as three things
happened Ezra read thescriptures, then Ezra clarified
the text, which people thinkmeans possibly including
translation for those whoseHebrew had lapsed.
And then, thirdly, gave themeaning.
The three things, the threelittle phrases, the gave.
(15:17):
The meaning word is the wordparash, which the Hebrews use
for some of their practicalcommentaries on what to do with
the scriptures.
It's the word used in numberswhat do we do with this guy who
sinned?
It's the application so thepeople could understand.
In other words, understandingis not just reading the bible
and explaining the bible.
You actually need applicationto understand, and I think the
(15:39):
reason why that is is if youdon't explain what this will
mean in practice, peopleactually don't understand what
the words meant.
See, if you just use wordsconceptually, you've got to give
them concrete content forpeople to understand even what
the word means.
It's actually meaning.
Application is part of meaning.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Now you're saying application is what the Bible is
written for.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It's what it's written for, it's what the
preacher is for, it's whatcongregations desperately need
and it's not.
I mean, there's a story.
It's apocryphal and I don'tknow, but I'm going to tell it
anyway.
There's a story about JohnChapman, the great Australian
evangelist and preacher,visiting London and working in
the office of his great friendDick Lucas, founder of the
(16:25):
Proclamation Trust, you know,father of preaching in London.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So far, I'm sure you're telling the truth.
Yeah, so far it's all true.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Anyway, they're working in the office and John
told me that he came out duringthe coffee breaks.
And completely differentcharacters.
You know John, loud Australian,dick, very private in English
and Dick is still with us.
So, um, uh, you know a greatman in the lord, he probably
won't listen to this, but um,anyway, uh, john would say to
him so how are you doing,brother?
how you doing, brother yeah, andum, dick would say I'm
(16:52):
struggling, I'm struggling andum, so what are you working?
You know I'm just working on mytalk for for sunday evening.
So what struggling.
It came out day after you know,like two or three days still
struggling.
What he's struggling?
John had written three talks bythis time.
He says what are you strugglingwith?
He says John, chapter 10.
You know Jesus, the GoodShepherd.
And John said how can you bestruggling with that?
You must have preached on thata thousand times.
(17:13):
He said come on mate.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Why are you struggling with that?
Dick said oh no, no, I knowwhat the words mean.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I'm trying to work out what they mean for the
evening congregation.
Yeah, in other words, he waswrestling with not just the
words.
Say what will they mean for thelives of the people in front of
him?
He was wrestling with that andI think you know we've had a
generation who think that if youjust repeat what the text says,
that is preaching.
And I think you know obviouslythere's a wonderful warning for
(17:44):
you know, comfort for chrisderash in his book on preaching,
where he says, um, that wecan't be the world's expert on
every aspect of culture.
We can't be the world's aspect,you know, and everything, but
we can still live amongst ourpeople and try and give them an
introduction to where would thispassage hit their, their lives,
(18:04):
to be thinking about thedifferent kinds of people in
front of you, different agegroups and so on.
We can make a start.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I mean, just as you say, that I feel like some of my
preacher friends are verydisconnected to the real lives
that their members are living.
Connected to the real livesthat their members are living?
Yeah, and even I was saying toone guy a couple of days ago,
how are you consuming the news?
(18:32):
And really he isn't.
Yeah, and I was thinking,actually most of the adults that
he's talking to on Sundaymorning are going to be reading,
whether it's the Herald or theFinancial Review or something
like that, but they're going tobe seriously engaged in where
his congregation is and he'skind of living in a bubble.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Well, let's talk about this because I mean, you
are somebody who's very engagedwith and very knowledgeable
about contemporary life.
Yeah, some characters aspreachers are brilliant at
listening to, listening topodcasts and they, you know,
they read the week and they knoweverything and I think that's
great.
It really, really helps andlet's just acknowledge it helps
rather than saying it doesn'thelp.
But not all of us are very goodat consuming news and some of
(19:16):
us aren't brilliant, you know,of course it's helpful when
you've got teenage kids and, uh,young adults and still in the
home and they can tell you tochat through things.
It's great to have a wife, tohave a wife you can talk through
.
It's interesting with ThabitiAnyabwile, who's a great Bible
preacher, expositor inWashington.
He said he presents two kindsof outlines to his wife in the
(19:37):
middle of the week.
I mean she's a great teacher inher own right, christy, but she
sort of helps him think throughhow this would apply.
So maybe you've got resourcesat home.
There are, of course, resourcesin the text itself.
There may be great truth.
I mean, most of the Bible isabout God, it's not about us.
So just to clarify byapplication I don't mean find
something for us to do?
I mean draw out the necessaryimplications of the text, which
(19:59):
will often just be trust God,he's amazing, or proclaim Jesus,
he's beautiful.
So a lot of it will be aboutsomeone.
Sometimes there'll be things,implications for our lives.
But there may be clues in thetext, commands to obey great
doctrines, to celebrate, butalso think about the people in
front of you.
How do you get help with that?
I think if you're not really intouch with the news and you
(20:23):
don't know much about it, thenit's worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It's not just news, but that's just one aspect of
life.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, I think, to be real about it, one of the things
you could do is well, look, whydon't we you've just heard the
sermon why not put five minutesaside for people to talk to each
other about how this sermonapplies?
So you might acknowledge thatas a preacher, you're not very
in touch.
But don't spend all the timeavailable you've got you know on
expanding the text and leave noroom for what does this mean
(20:51):
for our daily lives?
So if you know you're weak, youknow, if you're 67 and haven't
watched TV and it can't read, Idon't know.
You know, if you're struggling,then it might be that you do
your small group program thenspends time applying what
they've heard in your sermonsmidweek because you just don't
want to leave the word of Godleft in the air unapplied.
So it may be you have to lookto other people.
(21:13):
It may be you need to talk toyour staff team.
You know, ring up a youngercolleague and say look this
thing on, I don't know.
Autonomy and accountability toGod.
Where do you think that affectsyour generation?
You know, my younger colleaguesoften have brilliant insights
into how this applies.
You know, and I just say youknow, where can I find some help
(21:35):
on that and they go click,click, click and send you some
podcast or a little doctrine ora paragraph or something.
So work as a team, don't justwork on your own.
I mean, murray Capel has writtena brilliant book called the
Heart is the Target, and I thinkyou know it's the more solid
version of what I will bewriting.
(21:56):
I don't mean solid and negative, I just mean it's a slightly
more deeper book, bigger book.
My only disagreement with himslightly is he has a whole
chapter on the life of thepreacher and talks about you
know, having deep wells.
And of course he's right thatthe deeper you live as a human
being, you know, the moreengaged and you know with life,
(22:20):
the more you will have to drawupon both spiritually as a
Christian but also as a normalhuman being.
And that's true, though I dowant to say it's a bit of a
council of despair, though.
If I've got to be the personwho knows and knows everything,
I think that would be more true.
I'm not really bought into this.
The sermon comes through thepreacher entirely, as if God is
(22:42):
speaking through the preacher.
I think God is speaking throughthe preacher.
I think God is speaking throughhis word.
Now, of course, as I explainthe word, so as I apply that, I
am mediating the knowledge ofthe scriptures to the person in
front of them.
Except that where people havegot their own Bibles in front of
them, hopefully on the screenthey can see it, or in their
hands, it's not just through thepreacher, you know, the
(23:03):
listener can also see the wordsfor themselves and can interpret
the Bible for themselves.
So I just want to take a littlebit of a load off the preacher
that it's not, you know, ifyou're a sinner and a hypocrite,
like we all are to some degree,that your congregation is lost.
Thankfully, god still speaksthrough his word.
You know the quality of thepreacher does not condemn the
(23:23):
congregation, otherwise you knowwe're all lost.
So I just want to lower thetone a little on that, because I
think people can read the wordfor themselves and wonderfully
often say things and concludethings that you didn't say.
But we have got to leave time inour preparation and in our
preaching and I think, thinkactually would mean that if we
(23:45):
had a bit more application,sometimes the pressures on us to
only speak for 25 minutes wouldturn into no, no, you can have
35 minutes because you're usingthe extra time to help us all
live by it and we're seeing thepractical realities of it.
I could listen to you longerbecause you're not giving me the
finer points of the greeksyntax.
You're actually helping me liveby it.
So I think we need to leavesome of our workings in the
(24:08):
study to go back to the hours.
If I have only got five hoursto prepare a sermon, you're not
going to be very deep and you'renot going to have good
applications.
So you do need to think aboutbuilding ministry teams,
delegating ministries, not beingin some meetings, letting other
people run ministries, so thatyou can get yourself back to the
10 hours and then, every sooften, try and give yourself a
(24:31):
week.
You know, read a book over thesummer holidays, get yourself
into a couple of books so thatyou can come in at a high level
of understanding of a book asyou're going on.
But you've got to apply.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Apply.
You said earlier that there wasa reluctance to apply because
people might see that I'm heavyshepherding.
Yeah, just unpack that for me.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, there is a danger of going too far in
application, and there's plentyof examples of that online.
You know where you get someself-proclaimed bishop online
telling people what to do withtheir lives.
You know, sell your tvs andsend the money to me.
Um, well, the bible text doesnot say that.
So, um, of course we need todraw back from um inventing
(25:18):
things, that that is badapplication.
But you don't want to throw thebaby out with the bathwater,
therefore have no application.
So we want to work out goodapplication.
Um, you know where are theclues for the response required
to this text, both within thetext elsewhere in the bible
where that text is used, alludedto or quoted.
How is this fulfilled in christand what will that mean for me
(25:40):
as a christian?
But don't stop with what doesit say.
Keep going with what does itmean for my life?
Because that is the purpose ofthe text and that's what you're
there as a preacher to do, Imean, in the end.
For example, why do we botherwith preachers?
You know, why would we botherwith preachers at all?
I mean, why did Paul write 2Timothy 4?
(26:01):
Why didn't he just stop with 2Timothy 3?
Hand out the Bibles for half anhour and let people read the
Bibles on their own.
You know, if the Bible is forthese things, what do you need a
preacher for?
Paul didn't finish with 2Timothy 3.
He then goes to 2 Timothy 4,because the purpose of the
preacher is the same as thepurpose of the text.
So the preacher enables thepurpose of the text, that is, it
might be, rebuking, correcting,training in righteousness,
(26:24):
equipping us for good works.
That's why every congregationneeds its own preacher.
That's why the particularpreacher who lives amongst his
people is more valuable, eventhan a great preacher like John
Piper or Tim Keller being beamedin.
Why don't we just not havepreachers?
Save a whole lot of money,spend it on musicians and just
beam in great sermons from JohnChapman or two Great preachers.
(26:46):
And I'm not saying there's novalue in that.
It's great to hear, you know, amasterful preacher from the
other side of the world, it'sgreat to listen, but you often
find when the guest preacherdoesn't actually have much
impact in a local church?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
They don't know me.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
They don't know life in this congregation.
They don't know me.
They don't know life in thiscongregation.
They don't know what it's liketo live here in Annandale.
Yeah, and that's why anordinary preacher amongst his
people is more valuable andprecious than a great preacher
from afar.
That's not to say there's novalue in listening to the great
guy, but he doesn't know whatit's like living here in this
new cell.
So for those ordinary preachersout there thinking, well, I
(27:23):
can't do it like them.
Yeah, you're more precious toyour people, more valuable to
your people because you liveamongst them.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Don't then.
And they can see your life,they can see you trying to live
this out, they can see the wayyou're relating with your wife.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So don't then fail to tell them how you're trying to
live this out.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Don't then fail to tell them how you're trying to
live this out and actually sharehow I'm trying to live this
passage.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We don't want too much chat about ourselves and we
don't want to bleed all overeverybody with our sins all the
time.
But honesty, you know, is good,I do think.
Sharing with the congregationto use we rather than you, you
know.
I wonder whether we need tohear this.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
You don't want to be accusing us.
I'll get my script and then Iwill go search for the word you,
and almost every time I can seethat word you, I change it to
we.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I would do that.
So I want to sit next to myaudience and hold the Bible with
them and say, brother andsister, isn't this marvellous?
I think this means this, and Ithink what that means for us.
I'm sitting next to themlooking at the.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I want to be not the prophet standing next to God,
but I want to be the personstanding next to the
congregation.
You know if I've got the Bible?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
behind me and I'm preaching at you.
If I've got the Bible behind meand I'm preaching at you, it's
creating distance between me andyou.
I don't think I've got theBible.
All right, I'm sitting next toyou reading the Bible together.
What is God saying to us?
Us, even if you'renon-Christians.
People say what aboutnon-Christians?
I still want to say look forthose of us here this morning
who don when we weren'tChristians is can I encourage us
to keep reading?
You know you're talking in weand us.
(29:06):
For as long as you can.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
There's lots more to say.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Richard Gokin has been my guest.
Richard has a new book justabout to be released.
The book is called Apply Now.
It'll be released through theGood Book Company.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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