September 23, 2025 • 29 mins
How do you understand God’s sovereignty when your dad is murdered, your family is in poverty, you are living in the most awful slum and your extended family won’t help.
Richmond Wandera's father murdered when he was just eight years old, leaving his family destitute in Uganda's Naguru slum. Initially he wanted revenge. But then he came to know Jesus Christ.
We talk theological reflections on suffering, as well as a challenge for Western comfort-seeking Christianity, and a clear critique of the Prosperity Gospel.
Richmond Wandera leads the Pastors Discipleship Network across East Africa, as well as pastoring at the church where he came to Christ and partnering with Compassion in Uganda.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
God is still sovereign when everything is
awful.
Richmond Wanderer of Ngaruru inKampala, uganda, is our guest
today.
I first met Richmond in 2016and here is a photo of us from
back then, and he still looksthe same and I look a lot older.
He spoke then of the terriblemurder of his father at age
(00:31):
eight and how his mother andsiblings were destitute in the
Ngaruru slum, and the amazingsentence that he heard not long
afterwards from a compassionfield worker.
Richmond, you have a sponsor.
He came to Saving Faith at age14.
There were degrees inaccounting, spiritual formation,
(00:51):
discipleship and leadership,and he now pastors the church in
Ngaruru in which he came toChrist and leads the enormous
pastors discipleship network inEast Africa.
Richmond, thanks for coming in.
I'm going to ask you about thesovereignty of God in all this
in just a moment, but I want tostart with the pastor's heart,
(01:12):
and somebody said to me whenyou're talking to Richmond, you
should ask him about the wordrevenge and just the journey
he's been on, as he's thoughtthrough how to think about, how
to react towards the killers ofyour father and the difference
the gospel has made in thatjourney.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, thank you so much.
It's a joy to be here, and thetopic that we're talking about
today is very, very near anddear to me, as it should be to
all of us.
You asked the question aboutrevenge.
I have two stories.
One is a story of my uncle, whoended up taking what belonged
(01:58):
to my dad After my dad passedaway.
My mother had no job, and soshe looked around for what's
available that she can sell sothat she can draw from that sale
some money to keep us going.
Well, my uncle was in financialtrouble and he decided that he
(02:22):
would cook up a lie and he saidto my mom, whatever my dad had
bought key items that my dad hadused money borrowed from him to
buy those things, and so hewanted them back, and that
created a bit of a conflict, anda struggle, but my uncle
prevailed.
(02:48):
Conflict and a struggle, but myuncle prevailed, and my mother
she.
If there was a word strongerthan hate, uh, that was the word
I could use.
Now she could bear him becausejust in the middle of darkness,
when you think it couldn't getany worse, she hit the bottom
rock with that.
But a few years later she's nowin the Lord.
(03:09):
I was now in the Lord.
My five siblings were all inchurch thriving at this
compassion.
Project is when my mom hearsthat he's got cancer and he was
in hospital unattended.
Most people had deemed him avery rude man and so they'd left
(03:34):
him to die.
And my mom says they'reunthinkable to me and my
siblings.
My mom says let's go take careof him, because that's what
Christ would have us do I meanthat's an extraordinary work of
the gospel in her heart.
An extraordinary work because Isaid no for me personally.
(03:55):
But as you interact withAfrican families, you know when
mum says to do something you doit.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So you were kind of.
How old?
Were you 18 then?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No, by this time I was old, I was about maybe 21
around this time.
And so, and a long story short,my mom goes.
We go with my mom and we're inhospital for several days taking
care of this individual in andout.
But here's the thing Two daysbefore my uncle passed away, my
(04:24):
mother's hand was in his handand she was leading him to the
lord.
She was praying for him and Istood and watched this.
I said I want to know what thatis.
I want to know what that is.
The idea that the gospel is thepower of God became very very
(04:44):
evident before me.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And by this time… Forgive us our sins, as we
forgive those who sin against us.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Exactly, and indeed by this time I'm an accountant,
I was practicing accounting andvery determined to go up the
ladder in the accounting space,and it was there that my whole
life changed in trajectory and Ibegan to read obsessively the
word of God.
I wanted to know what this was,because it's not the kind of
(05:13):
thing you read in a booksomewhere and get.
This is the gift of God.
It's God touching a soul of aperson and changing them
radically.
That much and so long.
Story short person and changingthem radically that much and so
long, story short I moved endedup turning over from accounting
and I'm now a pastor and intothe ministry, and that's one of
the stories.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
What about the revenge towards those people who
killed your father?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, growing up as a kid, I wanted to join the
military, particularly for thatreason, because I, my whole life
was shattered after the killingof my dad.
But at the age of 14, after Icame to Christ, it wasn't like
instant change in attitude andposture, but after some time
(05:59):
hearing enough stories aboutforgiveness, I began to slowly
release.
And God by His grace.
Enough stories aboutforgiveness, I began to slowly
release.
And God by His grace.
I cannot explain, saying thatit was either something I did or
something someone else did, butthere was a forgiveness, the
kind of forgiveness thatreleases you to release others.
I think that's what happened tome.
(06:21):
And the time came when I slowlysaw the darkness fade out of my
life, the darkness of revenge.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Now I want to push into.
God works in all things for thegood of those who love him.
Or for me it was.
I think it was a line in anIsaac Watts hymn of behind the
frown of providence stands thesmile of grace.
And yeah, how do you process?
(06:54):
I mean years in a slum.
You must have had totheologically work through this
of what was God doing?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, Well, when you think about suffering, poverty,
pain, there are differentcategories of thoughts that
cross your mind and my mind, I'msure.
(07:22):
The first thought is sufferingis from the devil.
Pain only destroys Anything todo with depravity and death.
There is no redemption in that,and for a long time in my life
(07:45):
I thought look this suffering.
Why did God allow it?
He's so bad.
He's not a good God.
Anyone who says God is gooddidn't know what they're talking
about.
Even when I joined the churchearlier on, there was this
common statement god is good allthe time and all the time god
is good.
and I was like you'd hear peoplesay that, yeah, yeah yeah,
(08:07):
until what happened to me comesclose to your door, then that
language will change.
But that was my posture before.
Now that I have become olderand have had time to reflect, I
actually see that there is avery common trend and path and
pattern in the scriptures of theLord, inviting and sometimes
(08:33):
directing individuals to thedesert place.
Whether you look at Moses,whether you look at Christ
himself, there is this move away.
Come away with me to the placeof preparation, and it's the
place where metal is made readyfor the maker's use.
And looking at how strong Ihave become as a result of what
(08:58):
I've gone through, I'm now at aplace where you take me to the
hottest and darkest place inSouth Sudan I'll be fine.
You take me to the place inSomalia where everyone is afraid
I'll be fine.
You take me to the slums.
I'm still working in the slums.
I studied, I became anaccountant, I got my master's, I
(09:20):
got my PhD work, but I'm stillin the slums.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
The church you're pastoring is the one that you
were saved in in the slum areaExactly.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I'm still right there it's because there is a
work that has been done.
There's a redemption work bythe grace and sovereignty of god
.
You could see the sovereignhand of god preparing a vessel
for work and, and that's why,when I visit the west and I look
at how, um uh often people areare pursuing comfort and
(09:51):
pursuing and prioritizingcomfort almost as a destiny, I
feel like man.
We're missing that whichprepares you for life, because
indeed, life is suffering andthere might be moments of
laughter and there might bemoments of joy, but in the end,
(10:13):
the most prepared soul is theone that's prepared to face the
storm.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Let's push into that a minute.
I mean I feel like, as I'veover the last decade, I want to
say, become more friends withAfrican pastors.
I've sometimes thought, oh,probably I could beat you in
theological chess, but you'vegot something to teach me about
life and suffering in Christ andthat is so much more important
(10:45):
and I've wanted to just sit andlearn from somebody like you and
that's why I wanted to talk toyou about it today.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
A good friend of mine , pastor Richard.
I was talking with him not longbefore I came to visit
Australia and he said to me youknow, richmond, I counted a
privilege that I've beenimprisoned twice now for Christ.
You know that's under the themeof what we're talking about
here.
God is giving him joy that'sdeeper than the shallow
(11:24):
happiness that we oftensometimes think that he's
discovered a place of joy.
I think you would trace thatsame joy to the old Roman cells
where Paul is imprisoned andhe's in there and his feet are
shackled and his hands areshackled but he's singing.
(11:44):
There is the worship happeningin the prison cell and it's
disturbing people like, why areyou singing?
But Paul is writing Think aboutwhere he was writing to the
church in Philippi and he'stelling them to rejoice.
How can someone in prison writeand say rejoice?
(12:05):
And again I say rejoice.
And there is an experience thatGod invites us to which, if we
are not intentional and we'renot leaning in enough, we stop
shy of really stepping into that.
When I was talking to PastorRichard, you could see joy and
(12:27):
it's not like he had anythingmaterial that he'd benefited
from that.
It's not like his kids were nowin a better school because of
that.
It's just that he has steppedinto some place that is deeper.
And you read the scriptures andyou hear lines after lines, as
God does that which pleases him.
(12:49):
God does that which pleases Himand he, as we read that which
pleases God, we sometimes thinkthat which pleases God is what
pleases us and we're like, whenwe look at this life, that does
not please me.
I look at Richmond's story andRichmond's death.
(13:10):
I mean Richmond's father'sdeath and all that Richmond's
mother is going through and whatthese kids are going through
and all the circumstances ofdarkness around this.
If I was God, I will not letthat happen, but yet the Lord
sees the end from the beginningand.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
He can see where he's taking this story.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Oh, my mom, every border border rider and border
border is a motorcycle that weuse for transportation in Uganda
, but every time my mom sits onone of those border borders they
know her she's going to bringthe Word of God and say, hey,
hey, what if we got an accidenthere?
(13:54):
Where would you go?
Come on, and everyone knows whois coming on the bike.
Ah, okay, so I'm going to hearthe gospel through.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Now.
You had a critique a moment agofor those of us in the West on
pursuing comfort.
As I read it, we have thisgreat problem in the Western
church on theologicalrevisionism and particularly
sexuality.
But people have talked to meabout the great problem in the
African church of the prosperitygospel and yet we've got the
(14:21):
prosperity comfort thing in theWest and prosperity comfort
thing in the West and prosperitycomfort thing in Africa Speak
to me about.
I mean, you're obviously leadingthis network of pastors and you
must have the prosperity gospelnibbling around the edges all
the time.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, indeed, we have a big problem of the prosperity
gospel.
It is indeed the reason why Iactually ventured Pastors
Discipleship Network.
It's because I saw thatwhatever you win people with is
what you win them to.
And a lot of our people weresaying they were Christians and
(14:57):
what they were assenting towasn't the gospel.
And when they came in churchand found that it wasn't true,
that their chicken was stilldying, that miscarriages were
still happening, then they werefalling into syncretism where,
to please the pastor, they wereshowing up on Sunday and on
Monday.
They are back into witchcraftand they're back into all kinds
(15:19):
of practice and corruption.
And so the founding of PastorsDiscipleship Network for me was
an attempt to step into thatspace of saying there is truth
and there is biblical truth andwe can pursue it and we can
teach it, and it's that truththat sets people free.
(15:39):
There was a nibbling around thechurch that had gone even beyond
nibbling, I would say.
It had gone and almost stolenthe soul of the church, where
the prevailing reputation of thechurch in Africa had become
synonymous with the name it andclaim it movement the health and
wealth gospel, Wealth andWealth Gospel.
(16:01):
And then there was all theselawsuits and sharings on social
media.
It was awash with all thesethings that pastors were doing
and while it might seem likethat indicates that the church
in Africa was slipping into thespace of comfort, this is
(16:24):
actually just a few individuals,a few individuals that are
praying over the poor.
One person leading about 2,000,3,000 people was the only one
driving a car, was the only onewearing these suits.
The rest were as poor, or evenpoorer than before they joined
the ministry.
So, yes, on the outside, whenyou look at it, it seems, yes,
(16:46):
there's these flashy individualswho my ministry has come to
conclude that they haven'tactually come to know Christ.
There is a gap there.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So the prosperity gospel preacher I'm wanting to
say is a non-Christian at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I would argue.
I would argue Because there'ssomething about them that is not
dead and it's a different Jesus, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's a Jesus of come to Jesus and your life will be
better, rather than come to theone who walked to the cross
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Exactly, and that's what we tell people around that
just pause for a moment andthink about suffering and think
about life and take the fullscripture as it's presented to
us that there is the beginningof life and God intends for us
to have life in all its fullness, and we see that in the garden.
(17:34):
But then there is a fallennessthat follows in Genesis 3, and
that fallenness is real.
There is still birth pain, theground is still producing thorns
and thistles, the snake isstill alive, even though there
is victory that we now see inJesus.
Until that day comes when thefinal entrance of the Lord for
(18:01):
the ultimate salvation happens,there is a journey that we must
take and there is a partnershipin this fallen world that God is
inviting us to join him inbringing about his kingdom.
And I think that the theologyhas been lost and we have taken
suffering and categorized it insuch a way that it has left us
(18:22):
bare and very exposed that wedon't know what to do when the
sun is hotter than we thought,when the storms come in, when
the wind comes in, and yet Godis with us.
The idea of the name Emmanuelis to comfort us in times like
that, but when we reject some ofwhat life offers and brings to
(18:46):
us, then all of a sudden, wecannot access the depth and
meaning and the comfort thatcomes from the name Emmanuel and
what God wants us to understand.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Now you alluded to this a minute ago.
I mean, and you are somebodywho travels to the West quite a
bit now I mean you're pastoringthis church but doing the
network in Uganda, but thenyou're over here, whether it's
Australia, the UK, we'reFacebook friends, I see.
But what's your reaction whenyou come to the West and you see
(19:18):
us and I mean I'm thinking it'sminimum culture shock.
But actually there's probably atheological problem that you
can put your finger on.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
To be honest, when I come and I look at how much has
been given, I fear for you.
I genuinely, genuinely do fear,and there's a part of me that
actually feels sorry for ageneration that has this much
(19:54):
access or this much privilege orthis much entitlement, because
to me, to whom much is given,much is required.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
We think that's from Spider-Man, but it's actually
from Jesus, it's actually fromJesus it is.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I look and say look.
If the people in the West wouldwake up to consider all that is
in their hands from theperspective of the sovereignty
of God, then other themes suchas responsibility, generosity,
(20:34):
love would float to the surface,a stronger expression of the
church and indeed the body, in away that changes the world and
makes it a far better place thanwe currently see it.
But whenever there is a withcomfort and the pursuit of it,
(20:55):
comes individualism and comesterritorialism, and then all of
a sudden it drives us into theworld that we are seeing right
now.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Now you've just said that in quite general categories
I mean, don't name a name orname the church's name, but make
it more concrete for me.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
The individual who wakes up in Australia.
If you ask them how are youdoing, they might say I'm doing
okay, but.
And then they have a whole listof buts.
(21:32):
And when you consider the listof buts then you'll see that
they are talking about oh,there's no cable, the fridge is
not as full as and I haven'tpaid the subscription, or my
insurance is this and that.
And I look at that and I say,okay.
(21:56):
Contextually, I understand thatIf you ask the pastor, for
example, how are you doing, theymight say, oh, the lights at
church are not working as well,or the sound equipment.
Or I saw the church down thestreet that has new equipment,
or newer lights and a betterthis, and so, oh, I think I'm
(22:17):
failing, or I wish I had this orI wish I had that.
And I'm not saying that thereis no place and room for
pursuing a more convenient and amore efficient life.
I think that there's a lot ofroom for that.
But I do think that there is away a person can be more leaned
(22:37):
into the sovereignty of God,saying the only question that
matters is am I doing my best,as God has enabled me?
And if they step into thatspace of doing their best, then
they can know.
You know what, in plenty and inlack, I can do all things
through Christ, who gives mestrength.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Back to your current ministry in Uganda, and I mean
you're pastoring the same churchthat reached out to you as an
eight-year-old when you became acompassion child.
I've visited a number ofcompassion sites overseas and
done the inspection with a groupof Western pastors and that
(23:23):
kind of thing.
But what does it look like onthe ground for you as the pastor
of a church ministering throughthat program?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So, as a person who grew up through the program, I
cannot tell you what a privilegeit is and how exciting it is to
be on the other side now,standing at the door, receiving
these children who have theseincredible stories and speaking
hope into their lives.
What does it feel like and whatdoes it look like is incredible
(23:57):
.
Nothing beats the sound ofchildren, whether they are
singing or them playing or themeven crying.
Nothing beats that.
You can't ignore it.
It reaches the deepest.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I mean it is strange I haven't seen you for nine
years.
Yeah, but I just remember theway you said Richmond, you have
a sponsor.
Yes, and the joy that that newsI mean.
I think for myself, I thinkback of the day I came to Christ
(24:32):
as a pivotal day, but for you,when you said at Richmond, you
have a sponsor, it was such apivotal day but it actually led
to the day I came to Christ.
Yes, it did led to the day Icame to.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Christ, no-transcript .
Mary, you have a sponsor.
Zacharia, you have a sponsor.
Lawrence, you have a sponsor.
And the day I heard those words, the lights went on.
For me it was like Christmas.
My mom danced like she has noheart and bone in her.
I was crazy releasing thechigisu dance and it was
(25:21):
incredible Releasing the chigisudance.
We dance a lot using ourshoulders.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh yes, sir, it's the dance you do, right, sir?
I thought you were going tojust open the chicken cage.
No, no, no, no, be a bit morecontrolled, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
But it's incredible and I think and I pray that a
lot of people who step into thatspace of touching other
people's stories through theirprayers and through generosity,
that you get a privilege ofseeing what happens.
Sometimes God will let us havethat privilege and sometimes not
.
I've seen a lot of people whosponsor children and they never
(26:02):
visit the children and theynever visit their countries.
But then there are those whoget the opportunity to do that
and my sponsor had the joy and Ihad the privilege of having
them visit.
It was, I mean, amazing,Amazing to meet that girl
Heather.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us
today A privilege.
Richmond Wanderer has been myguest on the Pastor's Heart and
he pastors the church in Nuguruin Kampala in Uganda and leads
the Pastors Discipleship Network.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
God is still sovereign when everything is
awful.
Richmond Wanderer of Ngaruru inKampala, uganda, is our guest
today.
I first met Richmond in 2016and here is a photo of us from
back then, and he still looksthe same and I look a lot older.
He spoke then of the terriblemurder of his father at age
(00:31):
eight and how his mother andsiblings were destitute in the
Ngaruru slum, and the amazingsentence that he heard not long
afterwards from a compassionfield worker.
Richmond, you have a sponsor.
He came to Saving Faith at age14.
There were degrees inaccounting, spiritual formation,
(00:51):
discipleship and leadership,and he now pastors the church in
Ngaruru in which he came toChrist and leads the enormous
pastors discipleship network inEast Africa.
Richmond, thanks for coming in.
I'm going to ask you about thesovereignty of God in all this
in just a moment, but I want tostart with the pastor's heart,
(01:12):
and somebody said to me whenyou're talking to Richmond, you
should ask him about the wordrevenge and just the journey
he's been on, as he's thoughtthrough how to think about, how
to react towards the killers ofyour father and the difference
the gospel has made in thatjourney.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, thank you so much.
It's a joy to be here, and thetopic that we're talking about
today is very, very near anddear to me, as it should be to
all of us.
You asked the question aboutrevenge.
I have two stories.
One is a story of my uncle, whoended up taking what belonged
(01:58):
to my dad After my dad passedaway.
My mother had no job, and soshe looked around for what's
available that she can sell sothat she can draw from that sale
some money to keep us going.
Well, my uncle was in financialtrouble and he decided that he
(02:22):
would cook up a lie and he saidto my mom, whatever my dad had
bought key items that my dad hadused money borrowed from him to
buy those things, and so hewanted them back, and that
created a bit of a conflict, anda struggle, but my uncle
prevailed.
(02:48):
Conflict and a struggle, but myuncle prevailed, and my mother
she.
If there was a word strongerthan hate, uh, that was the word
I could use.
Now she could bear him becausejust in the middle of darkness,
when you think it couldn't getany worse, she hit the bottom
rock with that.
But a few years later she's nowin the Lord.
(03:09):
I was now in the Lord.
My five siblings were all inchurch thriving at this
compassion.
Project is when my mom hearsthat he's got cancer and he was
in hospital unattended.
Most people had deemed him avery rude man and so they'd left
(03:34):
him to die.
And my mom says they'reunthinkable to me and my
siblings.
My mom says let's go take careof him, because that's what
Christ would have us do I meanthat's an extraordinary work of
the gospel in her heart.
An extraordinary work because Isaid no for me personally.
(03:55):
But as you interact withAfrican families, you know when
mum says to do something you doit.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So you were kind of.
How old?
Were you 18 then?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No, by this time I was old, I was about maybe 21
around this time.
And so, and a long story short,my mom goes.
We go with my mom and we're inhospital for several days taking
care of this individual in andout.
But here's the thing Two daysbefore my uncle passed away, my
(04:24):
mother's hand was in his handand she was leading him to the
lord.
She was praying for him and Istood and watched this.
I said I want to know what thatis.
I want to know what that is.
The idea that the gospel is thepower of God became very very
(04:44):
evident before me.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And by this time… Forgive us our sins, as we
forgive those who sin against us.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Exactly, and indeed by this time I'm an accountant,
I was practicing accounting andvery determined to go up the
ladder in the accounting space,and it was there that my whole
life changed in trajectory and Ibegan to read obsessively the
word of God.
I wanted to know what this was,because it's not the kind of
(05:13):
thing you read in a booksomewhere and get.
This is the gift of God.
It's God touching a soul of aperson and changing them
radically.
That much and so long.
Story short person and changingthem radically that much and so
long, story short I moved endedup turning over from accounting
and I'm now a pastor and intothe ministry, and that's one of
the stories.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
What about the revenge towards those people who
killed your father?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, growing up as a kid, I wanted to join the
military, particularly for thatreason, because I, my whole life
was shattered after the killingof my dad.
But at the age of 14, after Icame to Christ, it wasn't like
instant change in attitude andposture, but after some time
(05:59):
hearing enough stories aboutforgiveness, I began to slowly
release.
And God by His grace.
Enough stories aboutforgiveness, I began to slowly
release.
And God by His grace.
I cannot explain, saying thatit was either something I did or
something someone else did, butthere was a forgiveness, the
kind of forgiveness thatreleases you to release others.
I think that's what happened tome.
(06:21):
And the time came when I slowlysaw the darkness fade out of my
life, the darkness of revenge.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Now I want to push into.
God works in all things for thegood of those who love him.
Or for me it was.
I think it was a line in anIsaac Watts hymn of behind the
frown of providence stands thesmile of grace.
And yeah, how do you process?
(06:54):
I mean years in a slum.
You must have had totheologically work through this
of what was God doing?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, Well, when you think about suffering, poverty,
pain, there are differentcategories of thoughts that
cross your mind and my mind, I'msure.
(07:22):
The first thought is sufferingis from the devil.
Pain only destroys Anything todo with depravity and death.
There is no redemption in that,and for a long time in my life
(07:45):
I thought look this suffering.
Why did God allow it?
He's so bad.
He's not a good God.
Anyone who says God is gooddidn't know what they're talking
about.
Even when I joined the churchearlier on, there was this
common statement god is good allthe time and all the time god
is good.
and I was like you'd hear peoplesay that, yeah, yeah yeah,
(08:07):
until what happened to me comesclose to your door, then that
language will change.
But that was my posture before.
Now that I have become olderand have had time to reflect, I
actually see that there is avery common trend and path and
pattern in the scriptures of theLord, inviting and sometimes
(08:33):
directing individuals to thedesert place.
Whether you look at Moses,whether you look at Christ
himself, there is this move away.
Come away with me to the placeof preparation, and it's the
place where metal is made readyfor the maker's use.
And looking at how strong Ihave become as a result of what
(08:58):
I've gone through, I'm now at aplace where you take me to the
hottest and darkest place inSouth Sudan I'll be fine.
You take me to the place inSomalia where everyone is afraid
I'll be fine.
You take me to the slums.
I'm still working in the slums.
I studied, I became anaccountant, I got my master's, I
(09:20):
got my PhD work, but I'm stillin the slums.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
The church you're pastoring is the one that you
were saved in in the slum areaExactly.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I'm still right there it's because there is a
work that has been done.
There's a redemption work bythe grace and sovereignty of god
.
You could see the sovereignhand of god preparing a vessel
for work and, and that's why,when I visit the west and I look
at how, um uh often people areare pursuing comfort and
(09:51):
pursuing and prioritizingcomfort almost as a destiny, I
feel like man.
We're missing that whichprepares you for life, because
indeed, life is suffering andthere might be moments of
laughter and there might bemoments of joy, but in the end,
(10:13):
the most prepared soul is theone that's prepared to face the
storm.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Let's push into that a minute.
I mean I feel like, as I'veover the last decade, I want to
say, become more friends withAfrican pastors.
I've sometimes thought, oh,probably I could beat you in
theological chess, but you'vegot something to teach me about
life and suffering in Christ andthat is so much more important
(10:45):
and I've wanted to just sit andlearn from somebody like you and
that's why I wanted to talk toyou about it today.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
A good friend of mine , pastor Richard.
I was talking with him not longbefore I came to visit
Australia and he said to me youknow, richmond, I counted a
privilege that I've beenimprisoned twice now for Christ.
You know that's under the themeof what we're talking about
here.
God is giving him joy that'sdeeper than the shallow
(11:24):
happiness that we oftensometimes think that he's
discovered a place of joy.
I think you would trace thatsame joy to the old Roman cells
where Paul is imprisoned andhe's in there and his feet are
shackled and his hands areshackled but he's singing.
(11:44):
There is the worship happeningin the prison cell and it's
disturbing people like, why areyou singing?
But Paul is writing Think aboutwhere he was writing to the
church in Philippi and he'stelling them to rejoice.
How can someone in prison writeand say rejoice?
(12:05):
And again I say rejoice.
And there is an experience thatGod invites us to which, if we
are not intentional and we'renot leaning in enough, we stop
shy of really stepping into that.
When I was talking to PastorRichard, you could see joy and
(12:27):
it's not like he had anythingmaterial that he'd benefited
from that.
It's not like his kids were nowin a better school because of
that.
It's just that he has steppedinto some place that is deeper.
And you read the scriptures andyou hear lines after lines, as
God does that which pleases him.
(12:49):
God does that which pleases Himand he, as we read that which
pleases God, we sometimes thinkthat which pleases God is what
pleases us and we're like, whenwe look at this life, that does
not please me.
I look at Richmond's story andRichmond's death.
(13:10):
I mean Richmond's father'sdeath and all that Richmond's
mother is going through and whatthese kids are going through
and all the circumstances ofdarkness around this.
If I was God, I will not letthat happen, but yet the Lord
sees the end from the beginningand.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
He can see where he's taking this story.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Oh, my mom, every border border rider and border
border is a motorcycle that weuse for transportation in Uganda
, but every time my mom sits onone of those border borders they
know her she's going to bringthe Word of God and say, hey,
hey, what if we got an accidenthere?
(13:54):
Where would you go?
Come on, and everyone knows whois coming on the bike.
Ah, okay, so I'm going to hearthe gospel through.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Now.
You had a critique a moment agofor those of us in the West on
pursuing comfort.
As I read it, we have thisgreat problem in the Western
church on theologicalrevisionism and particularly
sexuality.
But people have talked to meabout the great problem in the
African church of the prosperitygospel and yet we've got the
(14:21):
prosperity comfort thing in theWest and prosperity comfort
thing in the West and prosperitycomfort thing in Africa Speak
to me about.
I mean, you're obviously leadingthis network of pastors and you
must have the prosperity gospelnibbling around the edges all
the time.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, indeed, we have a big problem of the prosperity
gospel.
It is indeed the reason why Iactually ventured Pastors
Discipleship Network.
It's because I saw thatwhatever you win people with is
what you win them to.
And a lot of our people weresaying they were Christians and
(14:57):
what they were assenting towasn't the gospel.
And when they came in churchand found that it wasn't true,
that their chicken was stilldying, that miscarriages were
still happening, then they werefalling into syncretism where,
to please the pastor, they wereshowing up on Sunday and on
Monday.
They are back into witchcraftand they're back into all kinds
(15:19):
of practice and corruption.
And so the founding of PastorsDiscipleship Network for me was
an attempt to step into thatspace of saying there is truth
and there is biblical truth andwe can pursue it and we can
teach it, and it's that truththat sets people free.
(15:39):
There was a nibbling around thechurch that had gone even beyond
nibbling, I would say.
It had gone and almost stolenthe soul of the church, where
the prevailing reputation of thechurch in Africa had become
synonymous with the name it andclaim it movement the health and
wealth gospel, Wealth andWealth Gospel.
(16:01):
And then there was all theselawsuits and sharings on social
media.
It was awash with all thesethings that pastors were doing
and while it might seem likethat indicates that the church
in Africa was slipping into thespace of comfort, this is
(16:24):
actually just a few individuals,a few individuals that are
praying over the poor.
One person leading about 2,000,3,000 people was the only one
driving a car, was the only onewearing these suits.
The rest were as poor, or evenpoorer than before they joined
the ministry.
So, yes, on the outside, whenyou look at it, it seems, yes,
(16:46):
there's these flashy individualswho my ministry has come to
conclude that they haven'tactually come to know Christ.
There is a gap there.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So the prosperity gospel preacher I'm wanting to
say is a non-Christian at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I would argue.
I would argue Because there'ssomething about them that is not
dead and it's a different Jesus, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's a Jesus of come to Jesus and your life will be
better, rather than come to theone who walked to the cross
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Exactly, and that's what we tell people around that
just pause for a moment andthink about suffering and think
about life and take the fullscripture as it's presented to
us that there is the beginningof life and God intends for us
to have life in all its fullness, and we see that in the garden.
(17:34):
But then there is a fallennessthat follows in Genesis 3, and
that fallenness is real.
There is still birth pain, theground is still producing thorns
and thistles, the snake isstill alive, even though there
is victory that we now see inJesus.
Until that day comes when thefinal entrance of the Lord for
(18:01):
the ultimate salvation happens,there is a journey that we must
take and there is a partnershipin this fallen world that God is
inviting us to join him inbringing about his kingdom.
And I think that the theologyhas been lost and we have taken
suffering and categorized it insuch a way that it has left us
(18:22):
bare and very exposed that wedon't know what to do when the
sun is hotter than we thought,when the storms come in, when
the wind comes in, and yet Godis with us.
The idea of the name Emmanuelis to comfort us in times like
that, but when we reject some ofwhat life offers and brings to
(18:46):
us, then all of a sudden, wecannot access the depth and
meaning and the comfort thatcomes from the name Emmanuel and
what God wants us to understand.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Now you alluded to this a minute ago.
I mean, and you are somebodywho travels to the West quite a
bit now I mean you're pastoringthis church but doing the
network in Uganda, but thenyou're over here, whether it's
Australia, the UK, we'reFacebook friends, I see.
But what's your reaction whenyou come to the West and you see
(19:18):
us and I mean I'm thinking it'sminimum culture shock.
But actually there's probably atheological problem that you
can put your finger on.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
To be honest, when I come and I look at how much has
been given, I fear for you.
I genuinely, genuinely do fear,and there's a part of me that
actually feels sorry for ageneration that has this much
(19:54):
access or this much privilege orthis much entitlement, because
to me, to whom much is given,much is required.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
We think that's from Spider-Man, but it's actually
from Jesus, it's actually fromJesus it is.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I look and say look.
If the people in the West wouldwake up to consider all that is
in their hands from theperspective of the sovereignty
of God, then other themes suchas responsibility, generosity,
(20:34):
love would float to the surface,a stronger expression of the
church and indeed the body, in away that changes the world and
makes it a far better place thanwe currently see it.
But whenever there is a withcomfort and the pursuit of it,
(20:55):
comes individualism and comesterritorialism, and then all of
a sudden it drives us into theworld that we are seeing right
now.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Now you've just said that in quite general categories
I mean, don't name a name orname the church's name, but make
it more concrete for me.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
The individual who wakes up in Australia.
If you ask them how are youdoing, they might say I'm doing
okay, but.
And then they have a whole listof buts.
(21:32):
And when you consider the listof buts then you'll see that
they are talking about oh,there's no cable, the fridge is
not as full as and I haven'tpaid the subscription, or my
insurance is this and that.
And I look at that and I say,okay.
(21:56):
Contextually, I understand thatIf you ask the pastor, for
example, how are you doing, theymight say, oh, the lights at
church are not working as well,or the sound equipment.
Or I saw the church down thestreet that has new equipment,
or newer lights and a betterthis, and so, oh, I think I'm
(22:17):
failing, or I wish I had this orI wish I had that.
And I'm not saying that thereis no place and room for
pursuing a more convenient and amore efficient life.
I think that there's a lot ofroom for that.
But I do think that there is away a person can be more leaned
(22:37):
into the sovereignty of God,saying the only question that
matters is am I doing my best,as God has enabled me?
And if they step into thatspace of doing their best, then
they can know.
You know what, in plenty and inlack, I can do all things
through Christ, who gives mestrength.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Back to your current ministry in Uganda, and I mean
you're pastoring the same churchthat reached out to you as an
eight-year-old when you became acompassion child.
I've visited a number ofcompassion sites overseas and
done the inspection with a groupof Western pastors and that
(23:23):
kind of thing.
But what does it look like onthe ground for you as the pastor
of a church ministering throughthat program?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So, as a person who grew up through the program, I
cannot tell you what a privilegeit is and how exciting it is to
be on the other side now,standing at the door, receiving
these children who have theseincredible stories and speaking
hope into their lives.
What does it feel like and whatdoes it look like is incredible
(23:57):
.
Nothing beats the sound ofchildren, whether they are
singing or them playing or themeven crying.
Nothing beats that.
You can't ignore it.
It reaches the deepest.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I mean it is strange I haven't seen you for nine
years.
Yeah, but I just remember theway you said Richmond, you have
a sponsor.
Yes, and the joy that that newsI mean.
I think for myself, I thinkback of the day I came to Christ
(24:32):
as a pivotal day, but for you,when you said at Richmond, you
have a sponsor, it was such apivotal day but it actually led
to the day I came to Christ.
Yes, it did led to the day Icame to.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Christ, no-transcript .
Mary, you have a sponsor.
Zacharia, you have a sponsor.
Lawrence, you have a sponsor.
And the day I heard those words, the lights went on.
For me it was like Christmas.
My mom danced like she has noheart and bone in her.
I was crazy releasing thechigisu dance and it was
(25:21):
incredible Releasing the chigisudance.
We dance a lot using ourshoulders.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh yes, sir, it's the dance you do, right, sir?
I thought you were going tojust open the chicken cage.
No, no, no, no, be a bit morecontrolled, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
But it's incredible and I think and I pray that a
lot of people who step into thatspace of touching other
people's stories through theirprayers and through generosity,
that you get a privilege ofseeing what happens.
Sometimes God will let us havethat privilege and sometimes not
.
I've seen a lot of people whosponsor children and they never
(26:02):
visit the children and theynever visit their countries.
But then there are those whoget the opportunity to do that
and my sponsor had the joy and Ihad the privilege of having
them visit.
It was, I mean, amazing,Amazing to meet that girl
Heather.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us
today A privilege.
Richmond Wanderer has been myguest on the Pastor's Heart and
he pastors the church in Nuguruin Kampala in Uganda and leads
the Pastors Discipleship Network.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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