Two South Africa Episodes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show.
I am here with Ernst and Rob. How are you, gentlemen, Joan,
I'm good, Thanks new doing good?

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Rob?

Speaker 3 (00:13):
Oh, pretty grand, pretty grand.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm going to give each of you, gentlemen individually a
chance to just give a quick introduction to your tell
a little bit about yourself. Ernest, why don't you go first?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, Well, the short version of it is, I work
for AFRI Forum, the largest of all rights organization in
the Southern Hemisphere. I'm a campaign's office for strategy and
content there. But that's my occupation and my job. But
then also part of my hobby that's also connected to
my job is my YouTube channel and my Twitter account

(00:49):
where I comment on all things from regarding culture politics
here at the southern tip of Africa specifically. Well, I
started off when I created my channel by commenting a
lot more on things of broad politics in America and Europe.
But then I just started focusing a lot more on
South Africa and Africa, seeing as there are millions of

(01:11):
people much better and stronger and smarter than me, stronger
in their thoughts when it comes to an analysis on
America and Europe and whatever they can focus on that.
I'm going to focus on Africa and South Africa that
I know, the part of the world that I experienced,
the part of the world that I can do a
BS test firsthand if something is true or not, just

(01:32):
maybe a final thought there when it comes to that
idea of being on the ground. It's the strangest thing
when you hear other pundits or other commentators discuss the
country that you live in but people abroad, and you
just realize they're just talking the most absolute, just nonsense,
like whatever they're saying is just absolutely, verifiably not true,

(01:56):
and their audience is just eating it up. And You're
sitting there in the audience thinking like, this guy is
talking about what I know personally, and they're just talking
the biggest amount of just absolute nonsense and rubbish. But
and that's what I try to avoid. That's why I
made a conscious decision to do less analysis on US

(02:17):
and European politics and to stick to what I know,
because I see those commentators in America and in Europe
talk about South Africa and they just completely missing the target.
And then I think to myself, what if that is
me when I'm talking about America about a European politics.
What if that's exactly what I'm doing. Americans are sitting
there listening to the South African talk about their country

(02:39):
and they're just like, this guy doesn't.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Get it at all.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
He's just completely drank the kool aid and the propaganda
out there. So that's why that's the purpose of my
commentary is to talk about what I know best and
what I know personally.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
That makes a lot of sense, Rob. Yeah, Well, I've
also done some work for the same organization after form.
Although I'm I'm a freelance consultant, I'm working for a
couple of other I'm working for a couple of other
people at the moment, but I can't really talk about
them right now. And my but my big thing that

(03:16):
I spend sort of a lot of my free time
doing is is trying to assist the Cape Independence movement
in various ways. And there some big moves coming up
in apergot that should be fun. I mean, of course,
it's it's not something that has a guaranteed shot it

(03:37):
you know, it's not guaranteed success. But the way I
see it is it's necessary because it's the only bit
of the country that really can be saved from, you know,
total collapse. Really, I mean if the Cape guys, all
we've got left is Africana enclaves, critism, and.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
It's like, yeah, it's it's it's not the most ideal
situation because then you know, you isolated tiny pockets of
resented minorities and it's an ocean of hostiles.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
It's not it's not my idea of a party.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
We'll talk more about that. Why don't why don't we
find out how you know, the history? How did your
families get to South Africa?

Speaker 5 (04:24):
Mm hmm the peak.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
You're gonna have to indicate who you want to start,
all right, Ernest you start because I know that I
know you can be a little more brief than rob.

Speaker 5 (04:38):
Let's.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, let's go for a well on the question of
what where my family comes from and now they ended
up at the southern tip of Africa. There's a lot
to unpack there, but I'll keep it brief because there's
a lot to talk about in the broader picture. So yeah,
I'm the descendant of a mish mash of just West Europeans.
So my ancestors are Germans, Dutch, French, Huguenots, Belgians and Scots,

(05:04):
and that's what we know about, and a lot of
them have very interesting histories. The Dutch the typical people
coming to South Africa for mostly fortune seekers or for
a job or for a new start somewhere. French Huguenots,
of course, are fleeing religious persecutions, so they're not coming

(05:25):
to South Africa to make money or to create a
new life, or to escape just the monotony of their existence.
They're coming to South Africa. They're fleeing for their lives,
so they're coming to South Africa. And that's actually first,
my first ancestor chronologically came here in sixteen eighty eight
and he was a French Huguenot. His name was Paul

(05:47):
Rue and he came here in sixteen eighty eight. But
then also my surname van Zel that that ancestor came
I think a little bit later in sixteen forty sixteen
ninety four and he was Vilim Fansel. And then yeah,
in the meantime since then, also a lot of other influences,

(06:08):
a lot of Germans, a lot of other French Huguenots.
But yeah, that's the story. The story of my family
lineage is the story of the Afrikaners. I think most
of the European ethnicities that form that melded together to
form the Afrikaners are in my lineage and are in
the majority of Afrikaners lineage. And it's and that's the thing.

(06:30):
The big misconception that a lot of people abroad make
is they think, oh, the English speaking whites and South
Africa are the descendants of the Brits, and the Afrikaans
speaking whites are the descendants of the Dutch. That's that's
not true. The Afrikaners are the descendants are mainly the
descendants of the Dutch, French and Germans. Those three groups
we take one of them art it's a major piece

(06:53):
of the puzzle that you're missing. So those three groups
are the main ingredients in making the Africana specifically, and
those are all in my lineage as well. Just a
funny story to end off with. I mentioned this in
my I Am seventeen seventy six piece that I wrote recently,
A Time to do Trenches. My Scottish ancestor was on

(07:14):
his way to New Zealand and then he kicked the
captain's dog on the way there, and he got thrown
off in South Africa and that's h and then he
I mean, this isn't a time where he doesn't he
can't just wait until the next morning when the next
boat arrives, like he's stuck here now, like his fate
is not tied to the African continent for quite a while.

(07:35):
And yeah, if that didn't happen, I wouldn't exist, crazy, right, Oh.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, I mean some of the stuff. I mean, there's
a funny per since there so Paul Rue. I don't
know what the state of the farm is not. I
haven't been back to visit it since I've moved back
to my hometown. But I used to play and go
to Sunday School with Actually no, he never came to
Sunday School. I suppose with him because my friend as

(08:01):
Farmer's neighboring is. But there's a kid called Paul Rue
who who's a directorcendant of that Paul Roue. So I've
met one any relatives indirectly, but yeah, sort of. My
ancestors are also French Huguenots. My Irish surname comes from
a sort of you know, well, Irish people who went

(08:26):
to went to serve the colonial own administration in India,
and so one of my ancestors is born in Pakistan,
but that one of the family married into Danish and Swedish.
And then and then on my other side a bunch
of you know, Scots and English and Irish people, funnily enough,
no Welsh, but yeah, and then you know, like all

(08:50):
white side Africans, you know, Adamson I will both share
a tiny drop of Cooi sound blood because being around
for that long, you know, the first settlers, for the
first fifty years, there were no European women to speak
over really, and so they made free with.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
For a long time, not just for the first year
or so.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, for the first I think it's not. For the
first fifty there were very few. And then after that
you've got some you got some French women in there,
but yeah, that is a fair amount of times. So
everyone's got like about I think I think the average
is like, you know, four to six percent will be lated,
some more, some less, but generally speaking around there and yeah,

(09:35):
I mean like, but my family a few generations ago,
they were supported smart as the party were, and for
like fusion between English and Africans communities, they raised their
children speaking English so my family is sort of like
a modeled mixture of English and Africans spilingualism, and yeah,
tied to Thevinelands.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
No, I think both of us are because of our
deep connections and sort of family's obsession of genealogy. You know,
we've got a very deep rooted sense of our history
in place here, you know, where the skeletons are buried,
and the ability for you know, the rest of society
to shock us with our ancestors, you know, crimes is

(10:17):
somewhat diminished, so.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
You can't really be shamed. You you can't really be
shamed for your ancestors conduct if you have a very
deep and intimate knowledge of your ancestors conduct.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
That's true, That's true.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
I mean it's just avoid your Your opponents can fill
that void with anything they want.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, it made me makes me think of what could
your enthusiasm. Larry David there was a while ago he
had a he had a thing where he he went
on one of those who do you think you are
genealogy programs and you find out the ancestors or like
you know, like a slave driving certain plantation, and and
I I didn't think much of that at the time,

(11:03):
but I've noticed now apparently he's a huge fan of
the Confederate sort of army, sort of historical societies and stuff.
So I don't know. I think it's kind of impossible
to escape one's ancestry, you know, when you realize you
know where you fit into it, even if you can

(11:23):
distance yourself more really from certain things, it's like, well,
this is part of.

Speaker 5 (11:27):
Who you are.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
You're not gonna you're not gonna chuck it for you know,
for nothing.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So yeah, and
we get that in the South here too. I've I
was Arns before we started that. In the South here,
they're Southerners are very very aware of their families, and
they are for the most part, not ashamed. Do they

(11:54):
understand that, you know? I mean, I know my own
through my dad. At some point we were slaves, and
at some point we owned slaves. So it's like, all right, well,
best of both worlds. But I guess the reason I'm here,
the reason I asked you guys to be here, is
because South Africa has been in the news a lot

(12:16):
in the last couple of years, and I think that
most Americans, what they know about South Africa is comes
from Hollywood and comes from the newspapers, and these these
are pure, These are the propaganda arms of you know,
global Homo now and I want to hear the story.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
I want to know.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Everybody talked about, Oh, apartheid was so terrible, and you know,
we talked a little bit before we started recording about
the history of a little bit about the history and
how did we get to this point? I mean, how
did we get to the point where I was watching
videos last year of white and black act men in
South Africa standing side by side shooting rifles at rioters

(13:06):
and looters and people murdering people.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
H this is kind of your question, kind of is
a slam dunk for rob seeing as is Forte is
the different dispense political dispensations of South Africa, which is
literally the answer to the question how did we get here?
So I think I'll give the floor over to him
for for introduction there.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, I mean it's basically the the country is. It's
not a real country, it's it's it's a it's a
resource extraction zone. And I mean the cape has a
sort of nebulous identity. It's always been like if you
read sort of historical books about the Cape. So everyone

(13:50):
has an idea that like there's something here, but we
can't quite put our finger on it. But definitely South
Africans have nothing in common. There's there's nothing in common
except for the sort of power structure that holds us together.
And there's always been the case, and the country was
deliberately denied any kind of federal devolution of power from

(14:12):
the very first, explicitly to contain any any attempts by
people to break away. I mean, the reason that the
Union Constitution was instituted in nineteen ten was because the
trance of all decided didn't want to be part of
the customs. So they have like this big, big convention
behind closed doors and say, listen, guys, we're not doing

(14:33):
this warshit again. You're going to sit down and we're
not going to have devolution of powers. You're going to
get with the program. We're going to have somewhere. We're
going to have a cultural fusion of English and Africana,
and we're going to protect every one nation that didn't
even work. And the only point at which you got
anything approaching white unity was under for food, when you

(14:54):
got all for the first time the English speaking population
shifted over to vote for the Nationalist Party. But the
real thing is that you have a sort of idea
of the first chunk of just just shy fifty years
of the country is about trying to build this common

(15:15):
identity between English and Afrikaans people under the under the
British Empire. And it starts coming apart in the thirties
and by nineteen forty eight it's you know, everyone sort
of decided, no, we don't really want you know, the
Africans are going to be the bell leader for the
future and this is going to be an Afrikaans nation.

(15:38):
And by sixty one we become a republic. You know,
it's full speed ahead for Africanization of everything and an
attempt to contain some of the forces that were led
list because the big driver this is the gold mines.
This is the reason that Nathan Rostrald got together with
Bite Roads and Milne to unify the The whole point

(16:02):
is mineral extraction. The problem also is that all the
goldfields are far inland. I mean three times the size
of Germany, remember, way larger than Texas. But you know,
the mines are so far from the ports, so that
you have to like unify all these different territories in
order to give them sort of stable access. So you know,

(16:23):
Als mentioned the riots, and the reason that those riots
were so effective and so threatening was because they targeted
the corridor, the main economic corridor between Johannesburg and Praetoria
and all those mining hubs and derban.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, they were a metaphorical knife over over an artery,
like a main artery precisely.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
And I mean the thing is, you know, while African,
do you have in the meantime the black societies form
a sort of mirror image of what's happening in the
white societies, where they're starting to for purely pragmatic political
power reasons, consolidating around a homogeneous black identity under the

(17:06):
ANC from nineteen twelve. And I mean this is not
reflected on the ground amongst most black South Africans and
you know, or even a plurality of them until very recently.
But I mean you did get some writing about the
emergence of this sort of deracillated black identity. I mean
Jordan Gubane, a Zulu political commentator, called them the new Africans.

(17:32):
And I think you wrote something in nineteen seventy nine
called a Conflict of minds, and I recommend anyone to
go read that. I mean, it's it's really a fantastic
piece of insight. But I won't explain everything you said here,
but it's the issue is that in order to challenge
the white Pawer structure, they had to consolidate and form

(17:53):
like a single block. And the process they build this
ideology based on you know, economic distribution and race nationalism
and race consciousness. I mean, the idea is that they
got from w eb d Boys and Marcus Garvian or whatever.
It was, like secondhand German race nationalist ideas really and

(18:13):
then they combine them with bits of bits of Soviet economics.
The ideology the ANC can really be something up as
you know, black race consciousness plus Leninism, and the Leninist
element is the two stage national democratic revolution. So the
first revolution is the nationalist revolution, whereby you gain control

(18:33):
the levels of power in society, in the in the economy,
and the second phase is where you use those to
transsform society into a socialist economy, except that with the
race element it's transformed into a black socialist economy. And
from the nineteen seventies. Already they were looking for inspiration
from Indonesia with their expulsion of the Dutch and the Chinese,

(18:56):
and from Zanziboi in their massacre of the of the Arabs.
And it was even something called Operation j which failed
in the most farcical way possible. But the original intention
was to instigate as Zanzibar style genocidal massacre in South Africa.
They didn't even manage to get the boat with the
troops out of Somalia because they didn't maintain the engine,

(19:20):
so that was completely abortive. But I mean, look at
the nc has Alos been a fairly nasty organization and
most of their political culture was really consolidated. In the
nineteen eighties they took this is this military doctrine that
they took from the Vietnamese called a People's War. They

(19:41):
were paid to go over there in nineteen seventy nine
by the Soviet Union and they studied with Vogwark of
allmans Yupp, who is the you know general who you
know completed the warrans just to stop you the robber.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Just a great resource on the People's Wall if you
on this book by Anthea Jfree called People's War, then
a new light on the struggle for South Africa. It
covers the entire concept. It is like a magnum opus
on that concept.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Absolutely, and I mean this this sort of explains the
riots that we had last year. So that was big
headline news. And I mean like I was contacted by
I'm certain in seventy six or rivals or something for
them last year about it as well. So the issue
is that the the structure of the NCADA took on

(20:34):
this idea that so everyone, man, women and child are
all combatants. There's no such thing as being like not
on a side or not a legitimate target. I mean
Nelson Mandela had his had his principles. He sort of said, well, no,
no human targets or just doing sabotage here. But of
course on his way into jail he said, you know,

(20:54):
I'm not going to rule out guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
I mean, you know, if it's necessary, it's and that's
what the people who followed him later did when they
finally managed to get some funds and some training, and
so the nineteen eighties. You see, if you go on
to if you go on to Wikipedia and you look
up a crime in South Africa. There's a big fat
graph over there for the homicides over the over one

(21:16):
hundred years from nineteen fifteen to twenty fifteen, and there's
a gentle introdase that followers urbanization and population growth, and
there's a massive spike from seventeen nineteen to ninety three
that then starts declining, and that spike is the people's
Now the official statistics for debts areund about twenty thousand,
but if you look at the area under that that

(21:39):
spike in the graph, the numbers are way higher. They're
way higher, and it's you know, death by sort of torture, mobbing,
burning down entire townships, just absolutely insane augi of violence.
And you know, none of this is reported on because
all of the journalists were around the world very dutifully

(22:01):
remembered that, well, if we still want us sources to
talk to us, we can't say anything they don't like.
So they would they would actively lie in order to
maintain contact and keep being able to write pieces on
the ground. And they they freely admitted this to Anthea Jeffrey,
which is why of her book is such a fantastic resource.

(22:22):
But I mean, this is the structure means that when
when when they did the riots last year, the contoy season,
which the military ring of the a n C, they
had decided that they were going to back Jacob Zumer
as the former president against against the criminal charges against
him for like racketeering, bribery, all kinds of stuff. And

(22:43):
when he was placed in jail, they shut down about
half the country's economy. They targeted and it was like
a reasonably military level operation. When you look at them ms,
it's like, okay, target the you know, the side as
the depots, the roads, the rails, reports, shut all that down.

(23:05):
But what they did is they then sort of rallied
ordinary people and activists within the party to go and
glut and raid and target white and Indian owned businesses,
and they encouraged them with open use of genocidal rhetoric.
And once they were done with the businesses, they started
going off the people's suburbs. But the problem is by
then these people, most people had sort of tooled up

(23:28):
and hundreds hundreds of black people died trying to do
massacre the minorities in Durban and in Coburg Johannesburg. You
actually got you know, large sections of the black population
who didn't want anything to do with us insane nonsense,
who formed their own defensive forces, and now they're sort
of they've evolved into something called Operation to Doula and

(23:52):
another thing called the Soweto Parliament, who are aiming for
some sort of non partisan national sort of black nationalist
ideology that's non communist and non pan African, turned their
back on the liberation and and sort of gone very
hard on order stuff. So there have been a lot
of you know, fall hours from that. It's the best

(24:16):
way that you can sort of sum up the black
nationalist ideas over here is that they are the two
key words you have over here are into and unity,
and so unity would be in there, but there's no
need to make two words. So the idea about UBUNTU
is more that our culture is the most human culture.

(24:37):
Your participation, no loyalty to this culture, and then and
then years like we are not approaching any divisiveness is
considered like a fear fundamentally, So this is very sort
of consensus based idea going around. And yeah, so it's

(25:04):
it's a very tricky business because trying trying to oppose
any of these ideas as a white person, You're immediately
in the position of going, well, if you appeal to
your identity, then you are then you're immediately being divisive
if if they even recognize you as being part of

(25:25):
the community itself. So it's it doesn't allow a lot
of avenues for legitimate resistance, and so everything becomes about
a balance of forces.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
M m hm yes, oh yeah, No, well, Rob paint
to the very very detailed picture of the different dispensations.
But I think what I want to add there, well,
you just ended on it, and that's the balance of forces.
There's many of these concepts coming out of South Africa
that if you understand them, they can actually be applied
in many contexts. So the balance of forces is pretty

(25:57):
much the philosophical is operandi of the a n C
when it comes to their practical approach to policy making,
making moves in their grand chess game is And that's
another thing. Don't don't make the mistake that these a
NC oaks are just like idiots or like they don't
know what they're doing. Like there's a lot of guys
that's just there for corruption, a lot of them just

(26:19):
there to get on the gravy train. But a lot
of them are genuine ideologues, people that have an ideological plan,
fanatic or about it. But yeah, so the concept of
the balance of forces is very simple when it comes
to whether they ever want to impose a policy or
piece of legislation they chair, they look at the balance

(26:42):
of forces, and the balance of forces means is the
the the aggregate of all the different forces that are
pro and against us in our favor or against us
in our favor or not in our favor. And the
only way, the only way you can really influens the
ruling party, the ANC, is by tipping the balance of

(27:04):
forces against them, or to put them in a position
where they realize but the balance of forces is not
in there, then you can make them do anything you want,
if you if you can play that power game, because
that's their game, that's the rule they that's the rule
they play by. And it's it's that old concept of
you push, You push the population to a certain point,

(27:24):
and when they react and push back, you stop, and
you wait and you wait for them to calm down.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
And then you push again.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
You push a little bit, you just push them a
meter in one direction and then they start getting upper.
Do you they start getting angry, they start burning things.
So you stop, you wait, wait for them to calm down.
You just do that ad infinitum and pushing them a
meter by meter, scen to meter, or even millimeter by millimeter.
In a few years, they end up hundreds of kilometers
or miles away from the point where they start, and

(27:51):
they have no idea how they got there. And they
just snap snap out of it and they're like, how
do we get here? While you got their one tiny
little scene to me sad at a time. But that's
basically their their formula. Now what Rob described when it
comes to the apartheid era, that was a dispensation of
a forced separation, but now we are living in a

(28:12):
dispensation of forced integration. But it's built on the philosophy
the actually pretty much similar to the globalist philosophy of
you're trying to solve not the problem of evil, but
the problem of conflict, a problem as old as humanity itself.
It's every utopians like Gordian not if we can solve
this year, you win a prize, but the problem of conflict.

(28:35):
I'm oversimplifying. But the way their philosophy are they want
to solve the problem of conflict is they find they
pin the root of conflict in difference. So in linguistic differences,
religious differences, cultural differences, every type of difference that there is,
that's where conflict in their framework arises from. So of
course the next jump then philosophically for them is if

(28:59):
we eliminate all these differences or minimize them, we will
also minimize conflict and we will move towards a more peaceful, coexisting.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
World of people.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Because conflict is also not good for business, as of
course Luma told what Rob described there shows you. So
there's the utopian side of just wanting to destroy conflict
because if you feel that's the moral right thing to do.
And then there's just literally the cynical side of people
that want to live in a world of art conflict.
Because conflict is not good for business. Instability is not

(29:30):
good for consumers. Any type of war or infighting between
groups or civil war or feuds between groups or factions
is not good for an economy. It's not good for
the graph go up type of people. So what we
are living in South Africa is the South African experiment,
or they literally call it. In the nineties the South

(29:50):
African experiment. But then they realized people were raising their eyebrows,
so they started talking about the South African project. Now
it's a lot more soft on the ear, but in
essence it is a project of forced, forced integration. Where
do you try to standardize everything? And they got this
from the Soviets there an see this idea of standardization.

(30:12):
We want to live. We want to create a society
of standardized men. That was what Lenin wanted to do
as well with the Russian population. So what she then you? You,
my friend Russell LOMBERTI actually summed it up very well
just a week ago and I talked to him. He said,
South Africa is famous for having eleven official languages, but
it's the biggest farce. We only have one official language

(30:34):
technically speaking, and that is English, the state mandated language.
And that's that part of the homogenization standardization project. Everyone. Firstly,
everyone needs to abandon their cultural roots they and adopt
a new and their cultural identity and need they need
to adopt the South African identity. They are South Africans first,

(30:58):
and then they are Afrikanas and Zulus and vendors and
Tanungas and cause US and everything in between. But so
that's the one thing. You abandon your organic age, old
identities and you take on this new, artificial, state based
identity where you are a South African whatever that means,

(31:22):
you live with which it's so empty. You just live
in the parameters of South Africa. You live within the
borders and you bry some meat over open fire and
on again. But then that's the one part. The other
part is you abandon your language. That's not good for
efficient system. If you want to run an efficient system,
everyone needs to be doing business in one language, getting

(31:43):
education in one language, socializing in one language, doing litigation
in one language. Courts are running on one language. Every
single system needs to be optimized with one language. That
language is English. So what you're seeing is a systemic
destruction of just every other language in South Africa with
the with the black languages, they just don't develop them.

(32:06):
The ANC does everything in their power to make sure
these languages just die out and that the black population
anglicizes and takes on English. So that's that's the black
language is covered. When it comes to Afrikaans, for example,
it is a more difficult challenge because Afrikaans in the
past hundred years was developed from a kitchen language to
a to a language that is an academic language. I

(32:29):
think it's one of only three languages in the last
hundred years that was developed from like a low tier
just casual language to an academic level language. I think
I can't remember what the other two. So, yeah, Hebrew
was one of them, and then there's another one. But
so Afrikaans is a bit more of a difficult ones

(32:50):
because you've got actually you've got universities that are Afrikaans universities.
You've got a lot of Afrikaans literature, you've got Afrikaans school.
So what do you start doing. You start destroying those
Africa KNT universities by bringing in English. First, you make
it bilingual, so that you take Afrikaance university that is
educating people and their mother tongue, and you say, well,
you're not inclusive enough, so you turn it into a

(33:11):
bilingual university in the name of inclusiveness. As soon as
the English Yeah, as soon as the English speaking population
is in the majority in the university, you say, well,
now that the English speaking population of the university or
of the students is the majority, we have no reason
to keep it bilingual. We will now turn it into
an English university, but with translation services. So if you

(33:34):
want to really learn in Afrikaans, you can get a
translation service. But all the textbooks are in Africa are
on English, all the classes are in English, all the
tests on in English. But if you really want to,
you can put a little earphone in your in your
ear during class and you can hear the lecture what
he just said in very poor or very very poor

(33:54):
audio quality and someone that's not sure what the real
what the academic word is supposed to translate. So then
you just kill Afrikaans at the public, at the tertiary
university level. That's already done. I was at university during
this process. I saw it happen in front of my eyes,
the destruction of my mother tongue education at tertiary level.

(34:16):
I mean, I started first year trying to get to
trying to do my university degree in Afrikaans. I tried.
I literally sat and translated all my textbooks into Afrikaans meticulously.
And then second year old around I realized, now the
work is triple. I can't do it anymore. So I
studied in English. So I got my degree in English
but that's what happens to almost every student. Then, so

(34:37):
now you've killed Afrikaans education on tertiary level. What they're
currently doing is they're moving to school level now. So
now they're trying to destroy Afrikaans in the Afrikaans schools
where that's still the instruction language on school level. That's
the next phase. But yeah, that aside, there's always forming
part of the Grand Standardization project of the ANC forming

(35:00):
part of this. We are trying to create this efficient
system of standardized citizens where there's no conflict and where
everything is just moving optimally and there's a lot of
funds that that we can either loot or that we
can use for other means. But yeah, like I said,
there is a divide. It's not like everyone within the
ruling party is doing everything for the same reason there

(35:22):
but there are those that are just there for the corruption.
But there are genuine fanatic idea logues and there are
a lot of them are not even in the ruling party.
They're just in positions of power, but they're still towing
the line because they it's pretty much the South African
version of the Cathedral, so they're pretty much just doing
they know what they need to do. They don't even
need instruction, and they're all just marching ahead with the standardization, ormoginization,

(35:47):
forced Integration project. Well what's the excuse?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
I mean, yeah, I'm going to have to bring up
apartheid because if I don't, somebody's going to scream at me.
Is it that we suffered under this? Now we a
better question how much leftover of that resentment? Is fuel
fuels this or is it something else?

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Robber, you can start off the end of aug I
just had a lot of time.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
I think the best way to I think the best
way to start is to sort of realize that a
proctect was the way people think of it is they
think of that someone came up with this idea that
you know, we live in this world with white and
black people that separate them. The reality is that South
Africa is extremely vast countries. Again, like I said, three

(36:38):
times a side of Germany, and let's say you take
one hundred and fifty years ago, You've got maybe three
or four million people that's the population of It's not
even the population of the Netherlands, like less than the
population of Portugal. So you know, extremely though, so everyone
sort of settled in areas which are culturally homogeneous or

(37:00):
a lesser extent. I mean the cape was different. But
that's much longer and more complicated story. So what happens
is when in the country is unified, you've got all
these different entities existing in one bubble, and the political

(37:20):
elite in the political economy is run out of the
white society with some migrant labor from the blacklack areas.
So what they're do in order to stabilize is they
draw little boundaries around the black areas of black people,
settle can call those homelands. That happened in nineteen thirteen.
They moved about I think sixties to ninety thousand people
in order to tidy up the boundaries of these areas.

(37:43):
And then yeah, and so then that was the system
that be narrative of like basically a bunch of different
countries in one area white people much less to one
unitary state, and then a whole bunch of like tiny,
weird sort of semi independent states that the living as

(38:03):
colonial centropies.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Maybe you just need to add to that. When it
comes to the modern South African state, you ask, what's
what's driving a lot of this? You need to understand.
This is not a system that is designed just to
target white people or Africana people. It is an anti
culture system. As Patrick Denin would put it, it is

(38:26):
a system that is designed to be a culture shred.
This is what the South African current dispensation is. Its
mortal enemy is any type of genuine culture or religion,
or community or tradition. It is designed to destroy it,
almost like an acid where anything that touches it is
just eaten away. That's what it does. So what people

(38:49):
need to understand, this is a nuanced point that it
gets lost very easily, is that, yes, public enemy Number
one of the regime is definitely Africana culture, White English culture.
That's definitely one of its main enemies and targets. But
it doesn't stop there at all. It is also targeting
and destroying colored culture and many of the black cultures

(39:13):
as well as well. South Africa is being ruled by
urban Black South Africans, urban its and that have nothing
but contempt for their cultural counterparts. In the rural parts
of South Africa. They really don't think a lot of
their their cultural counterparts. They actually look down on them
as savage and backwards that's what is happening, and you

(39:36):
need to understand that this is the dynamic that's going on.
It's not just a system designed to attack white cultures.
It is a system that attacks cultures period. It is
there to destroy Afrikana culture, cause our culture, Zulu culture,
Vendor culture, all of these are its mortal enemies and
it's targeting all of them with laser like precision, and

(39:58):
it's mercilessly destroying and wiping them up on a linguistic
and a cultural level.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yeah, this is why Jacob's was such a big shot
to the system because he reinjected a sort of he
had closer ties to the chieftaincies.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, he wasn't de raestimated, No, he wasn't.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
You know, sort of a traditional polygamous family, proud of
his ethnic heritage, which was again it seems very divisive
within the ANC. So yeah, it was a difficult That
was a difficult thing for everyone, and everyone sort of says, well, ah,
you know the reason everything thing's going down is because
Jacob Zumer and then they forget, of course that the
policies were all set back in the nineteen nineties, so

(40:37):
it's just sort of like a slow burn that he
participated in some of. But that's besides the point. I mean,
the aparthe thing is what we know as a partheid
with like people think about like segregated beaches and you know,
drinking fun and stuff. That came a little bit later,
and it sort of started in a wave of reforms
that it was from like the nineteen twenties to thirties,

(41:00):
and it was you know, academics sort of refer to
this as grand and petty apart. As a grand aparte,
it is like the different geographical areas, you know, which
are homelands for black people versus the white metropol and
it's sort of vast aggricultural hintment. And then petty aparte
is the segregation that it's imposed on the migrant laborers

(41:22):
from the black areas into white South Africa. So but
that migrant labor that is something that was imposed upon
white areas who tried to resist it. In the nineteen twenties,
there was a major uprising. They tried to push back
against the importation of black labor from these from these

(41:44):
sort of black colonial zones outside of the white metropol
and yeah, they were gone done by the government for
doing so. So, I mean one of the big crimes
that's picked on over here is not just the in segregation,
it's also you know, the give economic exploitation. But you
know that's a product of an elite that's been in

(42:07):
charge of the country since the year dot. I mean,
big families in charge of this country are Rothschild, Oppenheimer,
and Rupert Becker. There's a couple of others, but I
mean the biggest of the big names of you know,
the Rothschild family funded the Mulner group that unified the
country by war. The Oppenaheima family were funded by JP

(42:27):
Morgan in the nineteen twenties to scoop up the mines
on the round. And you know, these people have been
pushing for economic and cultural integration for a very long time,
and they are actually behind the the Oppenoma family actually
behind the design of the current black economic empowerment laws.
In two thousand and three, they wrote the legislation for

(42:48):
US that basically forces companies over certain size and over
about twenty six percent of their shares to black investors
or whatever. And then they have quotes for management and
staff and so on as well. And this applies to
all the institutions public and private, that you need a

(43:11):
minimum quote of black people and there's no maximum quota.
So you can have organizations that completely exclude minorities and
that's perfectly legal, but you cannot have ones that exclude
the majority. So the situation over this it's quite dire,
and OP and i FM divested from all of their

(43:31):
major industrial assets in twenty twelve after they realize of
the consequences of their project. But it's sort of like
a combination of naivety and cynicism. So the naivete is
the aspect of well, you know, we really want to
do well by these black people, and the cynicism as well.
This also allows us to have some modicum of control

(43:52):
over the black population because the reality is that they
an't see by entangling themselves, because they become the primary
benefactor of the Black Economic Parliament policies. Most of these
share these sort of corporate share shared policies get shared
out to ruling party members, placements on the board gets it,
not to their friends and family. So but the consequences

(44:14):
of this is that now that they're firm not they're
not firmly embedded in what they used to call white
monopoly capital. So this this this means that you know,
the AC is stuck in the stalemate. I mean they're
heading towards the position where they're they have enough balance
of forces to declare that they've finished the first phase
of the national democratic and revolution finally, but you know,
they're sort of pussy footing around the big decisions because

(44:37):
you know, investors can still threaten them with a bad
time because of their entanglement. So there's a you know,
this sort of combination of fascist fascist economics and and
sort of this incrementalist policy. It sort of it has
mixed results, but the big thing that it does is
is a cripples investment, which is again something the Oppenheimer

(44:59):
found have always delighted in. I mean they poured money
into not in the Nationalist Party, but also the ANC
and the divestment sanctions movement. So what they ended up
having is all of the foreign companies they divers from
South Africa because it becomes uncompetitive and economically unviable, and

(45:21):
then they scoop up all of their assets of fire
sale prices, and there by the end of the eighties
they had direct or indirect control of about eighty percent
of the form formal economy. And I mean these permanent oligarchs.
I mean, like some of them are Africa who made
their way up during the nationalist period, like the Rupert family.
But there's there's like a very very small cluster of

(45:44):
dynasties that basically have they ruled the country without any
real check on their power. And I mean one of
the biggest runs now is a guy called Patrise Mazepe,
who's the brother in law current president. So yeah, the
country is is more the wealth is more concentrated than
you see in Russian or America anywhere else. It's extremely

(46:07):
obscene and absurd. And every single stage of a pragmatic
adjustment that they're using in order to hold onto their
dominance causes more more nasty, stupid cruelty for ordinary people,
no matter how sort of flung their ideals that they
articulate these things in.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, and an important point on that where you're talking
about the inequality in South Africa. Since nineteen ninety four,
inequality in South Africa has grown, but the driving force
behind it is not inter race inequality. It's intra race
inequality that's driving the unequality. Inequality in South Africa. The

(46:52):
creation of a ridiculously wealthy black elite in South Africa
is really something to behold money where even a diet
in the wall capitalist will look at that. We'll look
at that and just think this is not moral. This
is there's something deeply morally abhorrent about having this much
money and spending it in this just inhumanly flagrant way

(47:17):
in a country like South Africa. It's it's absolutely insane.
It's now and again, like a receipt or a bull
from a government function leaks or like where they went
out and had drinks, and it's it is genuinely morally
abhorrent to see people, I think in dollar terms spend

(47:39):
like in one evening, like almost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
It's insane. It's really it breaks your brain.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
The worst the worst part is that when you look
at they're not building anything with this capital they've got
their hands on. There's i mean, the grosseric capital formation
is pretty sort of stagnant in South Africa, so I
mean it's it's not at least it's not even free
for but I mean it's not looking good.

Speaker 5 (48:06):
And yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Everything's been going downhill for you know, as long as
anyone can remember now, and I mean it didn't to
be honest, I think I think it's people blame us
a lot on the ANC. But if we were to
be truly fired, actually started under the old regime as well,
because right until the sanctions hit, we were running every
year the real real sort of average income of white

(48:34):
sideflings is computing by about like three to annually, and
black wages were increasing by fifty per annually. I mean,
there was an extraordinary boom like economic boom into and
the amount of sort of redistribution of economic goods was
actually quite large. The budget for the state for for

(48:59):
you know, often infrastructure for the black areas in the
country was in art strip the UN I think five
times over h and I mean like the amount it
it's there's a lot of this development going in. There's
lots of economic growth happening, of course, with the the
sort of necessary caviaret that the implicit deal was that

(49:23):
black people had to accept that they were inferior, and
this is delivered to them by a sort of air
nas the the although their ideology doesn't really come from Germany,
it's more from the Dutch sort of pastor and politician
Abram characters, who's there was something called the Hamitic hypothesis,

(49:44):
the idea that black people are the sons of ham
and you know, the course of nowhere all of that.
But I mean, this, this this large growth that was
I mean, it wasn't quite as as energetic as you
saw from the Asian Tigers, but it was pretty pretty good.
And and then when the sanctions hit in the late

(50:06):
seventies early eighties, the economy hits a brick wall. And
now we're at war with the Soviet Union on the border.
I mean, most people say so and Gola, but the
reality was that it's like the Russians war with Ukraine.
All of the troops are being moved around by Russian generals.
All of the Angola Army, all the troops were moving

(50:30):
moved around by Russian generals.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
All the equipment was in the mixed as well.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
Humans were in the mix as well. And soth Africa
was owned against against this lot. And yeah, so that
was the combination of a hot war on the border
with a global superpower, and you know, economics, sanctions meant
that the solution was just I mean, like the security

(50:58):
budget for the state was like new fifty percent of
the state budget. It was exceeded fifty percent of state
budget by eighty six, and the sort of segregation rules
have become absurd to where like you know, black labors
were traveling like I think it was like six to
eight hours daily transport. It was like the average to

(51:22):
transport distance there to get a bit turned from work,
and you know, constant terrorism and the inflation rate hit
hit an absurd point. So we start getting we start
getting a really sort of runaway inflation in this period
and it never really quite cool down. I mean we've
had we've had it's sort of stagnate. Inflation is sort

(51:45):
of stagnated in the high single digits, and it's been
sort of like that for as long as anyone can remember.
Occasionally it jumps about ten percent, but not that often.
But it's just not good because everyone's savings are worth nothing.
I mean, it's not like Argentina, no Lebanon or Turkey
or anything. But that's you know, if these are this

(52:08):
wasn't like a sort of temporary thing. It's just sort
of like that's how things are always and have been
since you know, forty years ago. So yeah, it's that
the economy has taken a knock. I mean, there's some
other sort of funny, funny stuff that you'll find in
economics that I think are under underrated. And the big
one for me is actually the deregulation of trucking in

(52:32):
nineteen seventy seven. And people thinking, Okay, well, this is
like this marginal, ridiculous issue. The reality is that when
you deregulate the trucking industry, so the relationship between the
way to the trucks and the amount damage that they
do to the to the roads is actually exponential increases
to the power of four. So you know, like your
normal family sedan does so little damage you don't even

(52:56):
need to measure it, but the second you have like
multi ton trucks, it's very severe. So they deregulated this.
Two things happen when you do this. First of all,
your damage on the roads gets enormous, and all of
those costs are externalized, right, so it becomes much cheaper
to run. And we've got the most extensive road network,
one of the most extensive road networks of any country,

(53:18):
you know, we really really highly paved country. And the
freight charges that people are risking when they put their
goods on the train. Well, you know you don't have
to do that sticking on a modular transport unit traveled
on the road. So then your revenue for the rail

(53:39):
goes down, on your ability to keep preparing the resk
go down. So in the past fifty years we've seen
a decline in the rails and a decline in road
quality and starting to reach up to an absolutely insane
degree because the rails are not profitable, they're not being run.
And they find all of the vast majority of the
qualified civil urbans that were running everything that we had

(54:03):
at the end of the nineties, I mean so many
of them actually offered to stay on free of charge
because they were so desperate to keep the country from
falling into the condition that now is. But you know
they weren't running to hear it's like, well bye, by Whitey,
we've heard enough from you, and I mean the consequences
of things that everyone has to bear. But the reforms

(54:24):
in nineteen seventy seven they went beyond that. I mean
they decided to try to peace the international market by
embargoing Rhodesia, which meant that their war effort against the
against ANOPF last two more years only, so I mean,
like all of the reforms under forced that you know,
attempts to appease the greater liberal Wesstern world, you know

(54:46):
by sort of slightly opening up the labor markets because
they ended and they actually sort of gradually dismantled the
color bar from that point on, and by the mid
of the eighties, they were no longer enforcing segregated living areas,
so you know, if you buy a you could rent
houses under proxy and sort of set up anywhere in
any town. So you see, like people, you know, people
are no longer hemmed in by where they're where they're

(55:09):
working from. It's just everything starts going. A party started
being dismantled in seventy seven. The idea that they were
aiming for something called consociationalism, which is a plan from
a Dutch guy called Ardent Laypath, and the idea is
that basically you give every ethnic group some kind of
veto on what happens at national politics. And it didn't

(55:32):
work out. So I mean, they tried stuff like to
we had like tricameral parliam in the nineteen eighties, so
that you had, you know, you have these two different
tiers of the white parliam and you were a third
tier for various for people of various races to participate in.
And they tried to set all set all the bunches
stones up for independent national government, but they didn't really

(55:52):
trial that hard. They didn't give them contiguous territories. They're
too scared of pissing off their voting base. I mean,
it's just like everyone realized, like fifty years too late,
that they maybe should have been a bit more pragmatic
with how they divided the country up. And you know,
by the time, by the time negotiating settlement with the

(56:14):
A and C, you're on the back foot. You've got
no money in the kitty, and nobody believes in the
system anymore, because I mean it was it was just inevitable.
I mean, nobody sort of took any of the problem seriously.
And the fixes that people are looking at now I'm
just looking and going, you know, this is all too little,
too late. I mean, all of the major reformers that
the Western powers of funding, now you know you've got

(56:38):
I wrote a little sit of a sardonical blog person
called the World Economic Forum Party. They're talking about like
the leader of this new party that's been run a
former Democratic alliance, the Liberal Opposition Party. A former candidate
from there called the Demo Mazibuko who went and studied

(56:59):
at Harvard, got picked up by well, the Economic Forum
and not like that's recruiting inside of it. So between
her and then people who have associations with like the
Open Side Foundation and stuff, they want to put together
a new political party, and there's another group that wants
to put together a similar political party. And all of
these like nunimal parties that are heading towards the elections
of twenty twenty four are sort of varying shades of

(57:23):
status quo, but like maybe a tiny bit more border
security or maybe a tiny bit sort of more market liberalism,
but fundamentally racial discrimination, big good time, you know, radical
libertine progressivism, big excellent good time. You know, it's you know,

(57:45):
none of them are really interested in asking serious questions
about what's role at the country or you know, where
it's headed. And everyone's basically accepted what the NS preached
in the nineties as states quote. And so the question
is between you know, do give back this sort of
like you know, silly meaning marked compromise or do you
back back something real, and the people who are asking

(58:06):
for something real is really sort of done to the
economic Koreeum fighters who want a black nationalist totalitarian society
in which all minorities are completely excluded from everything or
pushed into the ocean and the economies run on communist principles.
Or you have the independence movements, and there's only really,

(58:29):
sort of the way I see it, there's three of them.
There's a Enclave separatism, there's Cape separatism, which is what
I'm involved in, because the Cape, while being sort of
ethnically non homogeneous, is sort of like a creole gradient culture,
so there's none of it, so it's not quite as
contentious as it could be. And then There'szoo independence, which

(58:49):
unfortunately is not organized as nobody really doing much important,
but a lot of people are sympathetic, so they just
need to get organized. And these are the only real
sort of big questions you can big answers to the
question you know where South Africa going is? Do you
muddle along until nothing functions anymore and there's nothing worth saving,

(59:11):
or do you try to and press the button and
get like a real solution that may be painful and unpopular,
but it gives you something worth saving. And the thing
is we keep denying the second option everywhere, every every
single stage where we had a reform opportunity, we've gone
like nah, fam, I'm just going to hang about and
keep trying to make this ridiculous nonsense work. And I mean,

(59:34):
there were two major opportunities in the previous two dispensations.
During the initial Union dispensation, we could have stuck what
it was called the Cape franchise. That's what kind of
what Rhodisa did is you have a non racial franchise
with a property qualification, so only a minority of people vote.
But if but regardless of race, you can enter this
class and become a full citizen participany political process. That's

(59:58):
what the CAPE had until nineteen thirty six, if I
remember correctly. But instead, what we did is we wanted
to dilute the vote in order to get more Afrikaans
people voting. So when the Nationalist Party went its first
election nineteen twenty four, and so what they did is
they gave all white people, men, women, children, men and

(01:00:22):
women sorry the vote everyone about eighteen the more qualified franchise.
And that meant that now the majority of voters are
Afrikaans and the road to Africana Nationalism was said, Okay,
so now you're going to do you know, you're going
to do a unit. You're going to have like a
monoculture likel to a sort of model. Interesting. But then

(01:00:46):
what they do is they failed to give the black
people enough sort of territory that they can autonomously govern themselves.
It's like if you've looked anyone's ever looked at a
map at the bunt tons in South Africa, It's like,
you know, all these little peppercorn dots everywhere, but put
it one. I was breaking into how many, like six
pieces or something, And so I mean, like even the
ones that were relatively functional that we're confronted with extremely

(01:01:08):
ridiculous territorial situations, and you know, they didn't want to
bite the bullet. The government didn't want to bite the
bullet and threaten.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
The Just just proof that I live in South Africa.
The runing blackouts just hit me this side. But I've
got my my internet's fine and my laptop is charged,
so we can continue the conversation. Just giving you some
context that I do live in the third world. I'm
not a Charlattan I'm not a hoaxer. Wow, but light

(01:01:39):
on just one second, but Rob can continue. Yeah, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
Just want to say, like this continual refusal to choose
meaningful options that have that have a sort of consistency
in terms of how they present themselves to the public
is I mean, partially it's a result of the economic
and permanent economic interests and parlim as a result of

(01:02:03):
I think a lack of willingness to try radical solutions.
So you have the NC that has these erradical ideas,
but then the balance of forces isn't in their favor,
so they come in in the nineties and they don't
get to they don't get to fulfill any of the
radical ideas that they really wanted to. They just hand

(01:02:25):
out some welfare and and then a few ten years
later they get the Black Economic Department program and it's
all sort of like this muddling nonsense. And what they
do in the meantime is they get the solution and
they steal everything that isn't nailed down, and everything goes
goes to Helen a handcart. And now we're presented in

(01:02:48):
this new period heading into twenty twenty four, were Heit
we're handled at a new option, a new set of options, right,
is we can really think about Okay, clearly everyone agrees
that whatever we're doing though it's not working. But the
willingness of people to alternative alternative seems to be basically tero.
If you look at the liberal the liberal opposition, the

(01:03:09):
way that they're presenting we have what we believe in
is how did they put constitutionalism and the rule of law?
I mean, like, what does that even mean? Because I mean, okay,
so if they want, if they want to say in
law and order, I'd be like, oh, okay, I see,

(01:03:30):
I see where you're going. You want crime gone, you
want you know, peace and quiet. But it's not That's
not what they're really fighting for because they know that
they can't win that fight. They can't really depress the
The country's overrun with violent crime. I mean, the mining
industry has been taken over by informal mining gang to
you know, brutally rape people in broad daylight. It's crazy nonsense.

(01:03:57):
And they're looking at this and they're saying, well, we
can make attractive to investors, pay off our debt, and
then get some functioning public services, and then within fifty
years maybe we can turn this thing around. And my
response to that is, well, everyone knows that you're a
minority party, do you really think you can stay in
power for fifty years? Like are you where do you

(01:04:19):
guys fall out? It's give it up, We'll take what
you you know, take what you can get away with realistically,
And and for me, that's the cape. I mean the
cape even now. I mean it's like it's not a
guarantee thing that this is actually a viral, viable political
enterity in the future. It's like, we have a chance.
That's so we have, we have a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
But just for some production value for your show, you
got some proof on camera of the state of South Africa.
Literally while we're talking, are the ruling black arts? Hit
my side? But John, I just wanted to give a
little bit of a foreboding thing. If you have any
European listener as you better be preparing for this well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
As before we started, you you had mentioned to me
you said we were talking about race, and you said,
let's talk about culture, and you said, like the culture
of an africannor and the culture of a white American
or any American really is, or you specifically said a
white American would be completely different, Like we.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Know there's a big difference, and people don't get it.
The best way to answer is actually a question that
me and Rob get off and is like just when when?
For example, Rob is and I'll spend time in detail
etching the situation in South Africa, painting the picture, and
then a lot of people abroad listen to that story
and they're like, but why are you still there? Why

(01:05:48):
don't you just leave? Why don't you just immigrate? And
in answering that question, you'll realize what's driving us and
many people here. The fact is, if I were to
to immigrate to America within one or two generations, my
my grandchildren or my children even will not be Afrikaners.

(01:06:10):
They will be speaking English. They will be Americans, and
they will probably not even know their history.

Speaker 5 (01:06:15):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
They will not know about the Buo Wall, they will
not know about the Great Trek, they will not know
about all those stories that I told you at the
beginning of the stream, and they will they will their
their tie with their cultural heritage will be severed. And
that's the thing a lot of and this is a
very cynical approach, but a lot of people use the

(01:06:36):
situation of the Afrikaners that we find ourselves in, especially
a lot of people of the race nationalist bend, they
just see us as an opportunity to bolster their numbers
in their own country and that they pretty much are
hoping for catastrophe in South Africa so that we all
flee as refugees to their countries so we can bolster
their numbers. But they don't give a They don't give

(01:06:57):
a shit about Afrikaanas or our culture because the reality is,
if that were to happen, Africana culture is not made
to be a diasporic culture. We don't have the cultural armor,
we don't have the cultural tools to be able to
survive outside of Africa. It just doesn't happen. I mean,

(01:07:19):
you will assimilate. Africanas particularly have an inclination to assimilate
and have shown a willingness and an eagerness to assimilate
in many of the countries, and it makes sense. It's
the proper thing to do when you immigrate to a country,
you assimilate to the host country. That is what the
proper thing. That's what I expect of someone that lives
in my community, and that's what I would do if

(01:07:39):
I were to move to another community, that's what you
should do. But that means that if there is no
future for Africanas in South Africa, there is no future
at all for the culture. And that's the thing. It's
when you look at South Africa just through a racial lens,
you're not going to understand that side of it. You're
just going to see a a struggle between a white

(01:08:01):
minority and a black majority, and you're you're going to
have no idea why the white minority is still sticking around.
Why don't they just leave? Why don't they just leave
to and go live in a white majority country or
in a First World country, or in a Western country
or whatever, any place better than South Africa?

Speaker 5 (01:08:17):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
But we stick around? I mean, shit, did I've got
the means to immigrate and I'm not doing it and
I'm not planning to ever. And that's the thing. And
I think that's where that's where your big lesson when
it comes to South Africa comes in, is the fact
that when it comes to digging in somewhere and fighting
for something that's important to you and something that's meaningful

(01:08:41):
to you, there is no more meaningful in great life
than that to be fighting for something genuine. I mean,
a lot of people talk about like these fantasies of
like living in a post apocalyptic world and like fighting
for survival. I mean, should do a lot of those
elements you're going to find in South Africa. I work
for an organization that's fighting for cultural survival every day

(01:09:04):
and I love it and it gives me meaning in
my life. And there's never been a morning where I
didn't want to go to work. And that's the that's
the thing. I'm fighting for something meaningful. And that's what's
interesting is my colleague Adam's Roots, was in America recently
and he was talking to a lot of Americans and
he just came back and he told me a lot
of them are a lot more pessimistic about the future

(01:09:24):
than us. And I'm like, well, there's your insight. Let
that stew a little bit at the back of your mind.
Think about the fact that the Americans are more black
palled about the future than the South Africans or the Afrikaners.
I mean, yoh man, but there's the lesson. That's what
you did. Then you, as an American need to ask
the question, what can I learn from the Africanas or

(01:09:46):
from South Africa that can make me as optimistic about
the future as these oaks living there at the southern
tip of Africa and a dysfunctional, dedeveloping country, in a
shithole country, How can I get the same type of
meaning and optimism in my life? And that's the I
touched on this in my piece for IM seventeen seventy six,
But it's it's a lot more than that. And the

(01:10:10):
big the big thing that I can can tell you
is the fact that you firstly need to start getting
active in your community around you. And I think that's
where a lot of the satisfaction is coming to for Africanas.
When you're living in difficult times, all these opportunities start
presenting themselves out of necessity. People start doing neighborhood watches

(01:10:32):
out of necessity, people start getting involved in community based
organizations out of necessity. It's not just a hobby. Unfortunately,
in a lot of First world countries where self Africanization
is a real reality, you're not going to start seeing
people do what the Afrikaners are doing until things get
a lot worse, until they have to start doing things

(01:10:52):
out of necessity. Your neighborhood watch can't just be your hobby.
It needs to be something that you're doing because you
need to. That's when it comes a real meaningful thing.
It's not just people driving around having beers and shooting
guns in the air. Then it's you're actually protecting something
your love and you're doing something that you know is

(01:11:12):
bigger than your Sti're participating in something bigger than yourself.
And that's the white Paul that I want people to
take from South Africas. Don't I see a lot of
especially young people like Zoomers in the First World in
America and Europe looking around and thinking where all these
great heroes? The history is full of all these great
men and great heroes and people that I admire. But

(01:11:34):
when I look around, I don't see any people like that. Well,
let me give you the white Paul from living in
a de developing country like South Africa. When things start
getting really rough, when you know that adage of good
times and bad times and all that dynamic works in
good times, there's no heroes in good times, there's no
great men around you. Everything is just you're going to

(01:11:55):
be struggling to find great men around you. But when
hard times hit, they're going to be a dime does
and they're going to be around you everywhere, and they're
going to be emerging organically out of the communities around you.
None of the great leaders that I've encountered in South Africa,
in my community and from other communities were educated in

(01:12:16):
hard to be great men or leaders. They were made
great leaders and great men through the difficult circumstances. So
that would be the silver lining as you enter maybe
hard times, if you can't change the trajectory of your country,
at least you will start seeing times of great men
and great leaders once again, and you will have great

(01:12:38):
stories and you will have ample opportunity to live a
great life. And that's one of the things I said
in that peace of mind, where the benefit of living
in good times is that you have ample opportunity to
live a comfortable life. But the benefit of living in
hard times and bad times is that you have ample
opportunity to live a great, meaningful life. That's what I

(01:13:00):
want people to take from it is that. But you
also need to start working now. Prevention is a lot
better than cure. I mean, who would ever forego the
opportunity to look into the future for free and as
my colleague in the Solidata date Bevejungo movement flipbase is
when he talks about South Africa, he says, in some

(01:13:21):
provinces in South Africa, the future has already happened. For example,
the province where I live, Haating, the future has already happened.
The province where Rob is living, the Western Cape, the
future is yet to happen. But I would like to
use that. I would like to expand that concept on
a global level, where in South Africa the future has
already happened, and in America and in Europe the futures

(01:13:43):
yet to arrive. So why would you if you were
able to see the tsunami or the shockwave coming, why
would you already then start building damn walls and to
start building defenses and start digging in. If you could
have that foresight, I think that would be my call
to action to people on the outside looking into South

(01:14:04):
Africa's you better start taking notes now. And it's always
better to be prepared then to let the ship hit
the fan and then you have to scramble for solutions.
That's the situation that Africanas were in at the end
of a parthate. I mean, this is what we were talking
about off air, going back to a previous theme, but
it does, it does come back. It circles back to
what I'm talking about now. During a part that Africanas

(01:14:25):
were just dependent on, the state became became just animal
state statist animals where you if you need a job,
you work for the state. The state looks after we
gave up all our responsibilities to the state. The state
preserves your culture for you. The state keeps you safe
through security, The state propagates you and protects your language.

(01:14:47):
And then suddenly one day that state changed hands and
then the state wasn't in control of Africanas anymore. And
then suddenly we had to learn everything from scratch. Like
a muscle that hadn't been used for years, it atrified.
So basically you just ended up having to start building
again from scratch. And that's the other thing that I

(01:15:07):
think another warning from South Africa is don't be tempted
by the false song. If we were just in charge
of the state and of the government, then things would
be or would be fine. No, no, no, no, you
have to start thinking outside of that. You have to
start thinking about a different alternative. You can't just think
about the next election. You have to start thinking about
the next generation, about planting trees for under which you

(01:15:30):
will never be never be able to sit. You can't
just think about if we just win the next election
and everything will be different, everything will be fine. And
trust me, it won't. It won't change a lot. Actually,
but I see a lot of Americans and Europeans waking
up to that reality. You're going to have to start
being the solution yourself. Don't wait for a night or

(01:15:52):
a hero on a white horse to appear on the horizon.
That horse isn't coming. You're going to have to start
doing that yourself. You're going to have to be the
hero in your own capacity. And that's I can speak
from experience of living in hard times in the future.
I'm speaking to you through a time portal from the futures.

(01:16:13):
Like in hard times, you get the opportunity to be
that hero on the white horse, you don't. You don't
wait for for that person, because if you're going to
die waiting, so you better start doing it now. You
better start in the worst thing. I think one of
the biggest people always talk about, like reshuffling chairs on
the Titanic, whatever that metaphor is. But I think there's

(01:16:37):
a bigger lesson from the Titanic and the big the
big mistake. Big lesson you need to learn from the
story of the Titanic is that thousands of people died
because everyone trusted that everything was going to be okay
until the last second. Everyone until the last minute believed
the ship wasn't going to sink, and then the shit
hit the fan, and then in the last moments people

(01:16:59):
started realizing the ship was going to sink, and then
it was too late. You need to start realizing that
the system around you is not working and it is
grinding to a halt, and there's black smoke coming out
of the pipe of this of this machine, and you
better start building some life rafts now they're going They
don't have to be perfect. Perfect is the enemy of

(01:17:19):
the of good. Build adequate life raft net pragmatism, be
your be your guide when it comes to this, leave
the leave the utopian bullshit behind. Like I'm actually currently
working on a piece I'm going to title it Africa
No No Continent for the utopian ideas, where it's when

(01:17:40):
you're living in a first world country like the United States,
you have the luxury of having endless debates about theory
of like, what's that real liberalism? No, that was that
real communism? Is that real fascism? Whatever? You have that luxury.
Me and Robin South Africa, we don't have that luxury
of just endlessly debating theory. You we're kind of forced
to work in the the laboratory of pragmatism. You kind

(01:18:02):
of forced to work on real world solutions that work.
When the tire hits the road. You can tell me,
you can give me a million sources that prove that
this solution should work. It works on paper, and therefore
it should work in reality. But if we've tried it
ten fifteen times and failed in reality every time, we're
going to have to jettison that idea and try something new.

(01:18:26):
So I think, yeah, that's probably where I want to
end off. Is again just those the main lessons that
you should learn is the one thing is definitely you
need to start asking the right questions. I told this
to Alex Kashuda and me and Rob also were on
her show. The big problem with many people on the
right when it comes to South Africa is they're looking

(01:18:49):
at South Africa to learn the lessons that they want
to learn, not the lessons that they need to learn.
And you're going to have to learn the lessons that
you need to learn, not the lessons that you want
to learn. I think that's that's where I'm going to
end it. That's something to keep at the back of
your mind to think about.

Speaker 5 (01:19:06):
Rob.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
Do you have anything to say before we close it out? Yeah? Well,
I mean I'm not going to these high for ambitious
IDEs andism because it's just it doesn't suit my character.
But I'll put it this way. It's sort of you're
going to look around here and realize there's no one

(01:19:28):
who's going to come to save you, and maybe you
can you can sort of content yourself for a little
while that. Yeah, well, the collapse is coming maybe ten, fifteen,
twenty fifty years alown the road. Things are fine for now,
but you know, I think things are looking pretty dire,
and I think people need to start moving. And if

(01:19:48):
you don't see anyone around who you can hit, you know,
your trailer too, you can ride on their coattails. Then
you're going to have to beat the path of yourself
and it's going to suck and you're not going to
be very good at it, and you're probably going to fail,
and you're probably going to sappoint a lot of people.
But you know, if there's no one else, there's no
one else, So you've got to do it. I'm not

(01:20:09):
the guy who's going to trash the idea of getting
going into politics, because the one thing about the worst
is you still do have a political system where we
don't have a state. We're a minority that doesn't have
real representation for the most part, and you know, we've
got to accept that and work with it. You know,
our times as you know, people with a state with

(01:20:34):
a future sort of it's long over and now we're
sort of, you know, thinking like moles burrowing into the hills,
and you don't want to end up in that situation.
And so you've got a little window of time. It
doesn't feel like a little window, but it is a
little window, and you know, use it if you can.
I think whatever tools are available, those are the ones

(01:20:57):
that should that should be used. And I think people
should act with conviction because a lot of the time
people sat and are satisfied with us. I think the
big thing that lives in the West I think there
are two things. When people get sucked into the narcissistic idea,
if they just want people to see how their perspective

(01:21:18):
and then they're happy sort of like see everything screwed,
you know, and they'll blame it on Like it doesn't
matter what they're blaming on, whether it's you Jews or
oligarchs or you know, foreigners that left. How do you
want to frame the causes and what have you the situation?
How do you defern people just want them to just
want to affirm their picture of things and then move on.

(01:21:41):
I mean a good example of that for me, you
would be the Dutch Party Foreign for Democracy, who, yeah,
their leaders a very ineffective historyonic narcissist who despite sounding
very based on television, doesn't really do much to further
the cause and has actually been mostly the cause of

(01:22:03):
the right in the Netherlands sort of collapsing on its
own under its own way, and it happens a lot.
The other thing is that people get satisfied with small victories.
You'll win an election and then you just sort of
sit there say haha, we're on top. Now it looks okay.
Donald Trump, he gets in charge, how much did he
really do to clear up, to drain the swamp and

(01:22:27):
clear up the people in charge? Well not that much.
As it turns out. Boris Johnson wins the biggest lead
that the Conservatives have since, you know, for a bloody
long time. What does he do with that lead? He
does nothing. You know, we're now look at Georgia Maloney
in Italy. Everyone's getting all excited and dewey eyed and
you know, firm in the trousers. But you know it

(01:22:50):
remains to be seen if she's going to do anything.
And I think those things are important. You know, it's
this is politics. Isn't a stage show. I mean it
does involve a little bit of theatrics, but the functional
point is to transform your society or to defend it,
and you know people need to take that seriously. And

(01:23:11):
the other thing is again, I mean, I know as
has picked up on non state solutions, but you know
in South Africa it's much more tangible. It's like you
have to provide all of this, all of the state
functions yourself in many areas.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Because the state is collapsing around you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
Correct, but how do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Honestly, you don't even have to ask permission because the
state can't do anything to stop you, right, And how
do you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
Think about this if you have a state, if you
have a civil society, I mean here in the Western Cape,
it's sort of like a limbo zone where you can
you can, you can see the can, you can see
the mud slide approaching you, and you don't know if
your heart is going to be swept away. But you're
also aware that things are still a long way off,

(01:23:57):
or at least far enough off the you know, so
if you wanted to, you could park off and have
a holiday, you know, but it's still coming. And then
you've got the first world where everything it's easy to
be lolled into a false sense of security. But what
have you got around you? You haven't got these sort
of gaps where there are obvious sort of solutions where
you can editize. I mean, even as organization that he

(01:24:20):
works for, Afri Forum, the big thing that they actually got, well,
one of the bigger things that they got famous for
when they were sort of a bit smaller, was fixing
potholes in the roads. But in my province we have
a sort of liberal mostly minority government and ethnic minority government.
Who are you know, they're pretty good at keeping the

(01:24:40):
roads paved. So then you know, what, what's your process
for appeal to build your organizational structure, it's got to
be a bit different. You've got to focus on like
cultural items and sort of labor issues and funny things
like that. And in Europe it's going to be very
difficult because you really, you know, there's lots of infiltrators.
It's not like over here, and I think you're going

(01:25:04):
to have to build infrastructure outside the state. You're gonna
build networks, You've gotta build. I mean, I don't want
to teach anyone to suck eggs, but I think I
think the thing is that it's actually kind of in
a funny way, it's easier when the problem is very
immediate because everyone can see it. When it's a nebulous
like it is in Europe, you've got to get really creative.
And I don't. I sort of I feel very nervous

(01:25:27):
when I look at Europe because that's a place where
if it falls apart, it will fall apart rapidly, and
there's not a lot you can do to stop it
once it gets past the point of my return.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
So it's like the difference between a house of cards
made out of two cards and a house of cards
made out of a hundred cards collapsing.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
I think that's a good analogy. Yeah yeah, so yeah,
ours there is a house of cards of two cards,
like you just knock one. Oh wow, it's fallen over. Well,
let's just put it up a little bit, you know.
But you know you're in Europe.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
You've got like it and it's cut off card and
build a little little structure within.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
When that thing falls, you know it's going to it's
it's not just going it's not just going to be
a sort of you know, an elegant arrangement. It's going
to be horribly brutal, you know. I mean, I don't know,
I don't know what people are looking forward to at
the moment there. But my point is you have nowhere

(01:26:28):
to run to, so you know you've got to do something.
I don't know, I don't know what people do. They're
going to do something because you know, it's your future,
it's place, it's your it's your parture, you know. I mean,
we've been here long.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
And the other thing is that you should abandoned this
this idea of well things get bad I'll just move
to a different state, or I'll just move to a
different country. Eventually, tide you run out of the higher
ground to lead to Eventually you're going to drown.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
Yeah, but like you can't.

Speaker 5 (01:27:05):
I mean, what are you going to do.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
You're going to be some derascinated expert floating around the
Middle East or East Southeast Asia, you know. I mean,
it's like, that's not a sustainable that's not a sustainable
model for any community. I don't see I don't see
that as being I don't see that as being like
a future anyone wants to be a part of. I mean,
it certainly can be a future that people end up in,

(01:27:29):
and it can be fun, you know, up to up
to a point, but you know, collectively, that's not that's
not a future anyone should be designing. So you know,
you're going to pick what you end up as much
as you can. And I mean, then at least you know,
if you fail, you can at least you know you
can go out saying, well, you know, I did my part,
I've done my duty. I'm not going to feel ashamed

(01:27:50):
of myself. At the very least, you know, you don't
want to be it's it's it's the equivalent of going
to your your mother's funeral and not having parted on
good good terms. You know, you've got to do your
you've got to do your heritage, you've got to do
your future a good term so that you can rested

(01:28:11):
lease a little bit easy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
I think, well, let's end up there, give your plugs
any anything you want, anything you want.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
To so my plugs are not going to work seeing
as it's a rolling black art and there's no electricity.
But now I'll keep it simple and short. If people
like want to explore more of these types of ideas
and about and follow a channel and a commentator that
specifically focuses on culture and politics in Southern Africa, you

(01:28:42):
can go to my YouTube channel, a Conscious Caricle, or
you can follow me on Twitter also Conscious Carical. One
of the jokes always and people ask me like, how
did you choose your username? What was your plan with
your whole brand? I'm like, if I if I had
a plan from the beginning and thought that I'll was
going to gain an audience at all, I would have

(01:29:02):
chosen the easier name to spell and plug. But if
you really want to, if you need it, spelled art
on on Twitter, I'm at C O N C A
R A C A L or just conscious character for
those that can that can go type it in. And
then also you can just so check out my YouTube

(01:29:24):
and my Twitter and then from there you'll find everything else.
And that's that's about it.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
Right, Yeah, Well, I have a I have a blog,
and I have a Twitter handle, and I have a
YouTube channel, but I don't update the YouTube channel very much,
and my blog is also sporadic. It depends on what
I'm working on in my professional capacity. I'm not the
most organized person. So if I've got any if I'm
if I'm even marginally busy in my professional life, I don't.

(01:29:54):
I don't do any of this stuff on the side.
But I do have a sort of mostly completed documentary
series so African History that I made on my YouTube
channel that was really good. That's Marl Barney. That's m
A R H O B A n E. And then
I mean there's like a few sort of like essays
which I read out and took questions on on that

(01:30:15):
channel as well. And then my my substack has a
whole bunch of stuff varying from you know, like meditative,
you know, reflections on sort of literature and philosophy and
history and stuff and politics and electoral politics and coach. Yeah,

(01:30:37):
all that kind of stuff. Mostly centered on CI Africa,
but a casey global politics. Also Marl Banni at substack
and then now on Twitter, I'm under my own name,
I mean the handles at Marl Barney, but the the
name of the account is my name, Robert Dagens d
U I G A N. There's only one of me

(01:30:59):
because it's a fairly unusual little Irish surname. And yeah,
so you can check that out if you really want
to and hopefully find it interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
For more context on the I think what I was
talking about on the show, you can go read my
im seventeen seventy six piece A Time to Dig Trenches.
I think that I'll give you a lot more in depth,
nuanced than what we were able to fit in an
A and of sure I.

Speaker 1 (01:31:26):
Will make sure to link to all of that so
that people can get easy access. So man, thank you
very much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
All right, thank you, cheers walk well, God bless.

Speaker 1 (01:31:40):
I want to welcome everyone back to the Peak and
Yona show. I am pleased today to be talking to
mister Simon Roche. Is it how do we pronounce your name?

Speaker 5 (01:31:48):
Is it roach? Everybody says Roch or roach, but technically
it's Rosch. It's a French word that means stone. A rush.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
Sounds good to me. Welcome to the show. Tell everybody
a little bit of yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:32:01):
And thank you very much for having us Pete. My
name is Simon Rosch. I represent an organization called Southlanders.
The first vowel sound is a bit tricky. It's Sui
d Landers, Sui d Landers and Southlanders means Southlanders or

(01:32:24):
Southern as if you prefer. And Southlanders is a civil
defense organization constituted as such under international law. South African
organization dedicated to the planning and preparation of a national

(01:32:45):
emergency plan in the event of a civil war in
South Africa, which sounds very extreme and dramatic until you
consider the I suppose the background. South afric occurs an
unstable country, as it's proven over the past thirty years,
and we happen to be those people who believe that

(01:33:08):
the trajectory like a ball sailing through the air of
South Africa is quite clear. We're headed for some sort
of a collision, a crisis. The country can't go forever
the way it has been going under anc rule for
almost the past thirty years, since the twenty seventh of

(01:33:28):
April nineteen ninety four, without eventually some crisis emerging. So
we're a civil defense organization constituted under the specific provisions
of international law, particularly but not only, the Jeevan Geneva Conventions.
The protocol are known as the protocols additional to the

(01:33:48):
Geneva Conventions, which make specific provision, very specific provision for
identifiable ethnic groups to prepare to defend themselves in the
event of a calamity in their country, whether that be
a civil war or an international war, whatever the case

(01:34:10):
may be. And so we're just those people. Were the
largest organization of our sort in the world, and if
anybody has an interest, they welcome to visit State Lounders
s u id landers dot org the largest organization of
our sort in the world. And I represent the organization.

(01:34:33):
I'm a salaried employee, I'm paid to do the work
that I do, and I'm presently in the United States
spreading the word and endeavoring to raise funds for the
work that we do.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
Well, I think a lot of the people who watch
the show are aware, at least, if not in depth,
have a cursory knowledge of everything that's going on in
South Africa and has been since what's known as apartheid ended.
But I would like you to start by doing an

(01:35:07):
overview of the history of South Africa. I think a
lot of people believe that South Africa is a place
where it was completely inhabited by indigenous Black Africans and
the white man came in and pushed them out or
enslaved them. And is that a proper narrative or is

(01:35:31):
that something that is just made up, like a lot
of the history we hear in the world.

Speaker 5 (01:35:35):
Now, No, it's a gross exaggeration, Pete. The first permanent
settlement was established in South Africa in sixteen fifty two,
and at that time the whites the colonizers, They were Dutch.
The first permanent settlement was what is now known as

(01:35:58):
Cape Town. Well it was then as well, and those
people worked for the Dutch East India Company, and they
met Indigenous Africans, particularly the people known as Bushman. The
politically correct term for bushman is san but it's actually

(01:36:20):
a very nasty word. It's a black word for robber
or thief, so it's politically correct stupidity, really, the stupidity
of academics and elitists who can't speak a word of
an indigenous language, true to form. And the bushmen are

(01:36:45):
very small people, very scattered people, and there was kind
of a modus vivendi, you know that there was stealing
and reprisals and what have you. But the colonizers and
the bushmen coexisted because the region is very, very spacious.
About one hundred and twenty five years later, the then

(01:37:08):
commander of the fort at Cape Town got it into
his head to search out black people because he was
in Africa, you know what I mean. And all he'd
met was the little, yellow skinned, very petite bushmen who
lived in small family groups, very scattered, without much without

(01:37:32):
any governance of any description whatsoever, and without much social
structure apart from these tiny little family groups. And he
wanted to know where the black where all the black
people are. He's in Africa, you know, he was supposed
to have black shir and so he set out on

(01:37:53):
a journey to find proper dark skin, dark curly head,
broad shouldered black people, as you know, them, and he
found them about six hundred miles away from Cape Town

(01:38:14):
after almost a two year search, on the east bank
of the famous Great Fish River. And that one anecdote
tells you the whole story. It tells you everything that
you need to know. Excuse me on the simple reality
is that South Africa was so sparsely populated, and indeed

(01:38:40):
an enormous portion of it not populated at all by
Black Africans, that it took the proto whites of South Africa,
the first whites of South Africa, one hundred and twenty
five years to meet up with the Negroid to use

(01:39:00):
the technical term the Negroid black people of Africa as
everybody knows them. And if that is not instructive, then
nothing will ever teach anybody anything. It took the whites
of South Africa one hundred and twenty five years to
meet the first also people, the first black people before

(01:39:21):
the Zulus, the Sutus, the Twanas, the de barely and
so on. One hundred and twenty five years. And you know
today was flicking through Tweeter and a black South African
was making some sort of cynical observations of African National

(01:39:42):
Congress government and he was pointing out that it's a
very little known fact that the majority of farmland in
South Africa is owned by black people. And as you
and I know, there's been this anc campaign over the
past thirty years to repatriate the land to the blacks,

(01:40:03):
and liberals and imbeciles have the idea in their minds
that the whites own all of the farmland and the
blacks are cooped up in teeny tiny little I don't
know what, like Brazilian favelas or something. And it's an
absolute fallacy, even right through a part eight. Aside from
privately owned black land, aside from black townships, the Zulu

(01:40:27):
Kingdom's Trust, which is called the Ingonyama Trust owned and
still does own thirty two percent of the Zulu Province,
the Zulu Land Province, the Quadzulu Province formerly known as
the Natel Province. And that's just one anecdote. I could

(01:40:47):
give you hundreds that might give a sense of perspective
on this thing. It's very, very, very poorly understood. It's
not like the United States of America. It's not like
whatever other example you want to pluck out of thin air.
South Africa is South Africa, was very sparsely populated. It
took over a century for whites and blacks as such

(01:41:09):
to meet, and to this day black people occupy and
own a significant portion of the country.

Speaker 1 (01:41:19):
I know that mining minerals gems are a part of
the history. When did that start and did that bring
tension among the people.

Speaker 5 (01:41:32):
So, in reply to your question, naturally it created tension,
I should point out to you, and this is very
very well recorded. This is not some convenient right wing
racist maniac statistic. People can look this up for themselves.
In the early part of the nineteenth century, that is

(01:41:57):
to say, the early eighteen hundreds. In eighteen oh seven,
the British Empire banned the slave trade, but the banning
of slave ownership only occurred in eighteen thirty four. So
those are two salient figures for your audience members to

(01:42:20):
remember for the rest of their lives. If people talk
about slavery and slaving and what have you. Eighteen oh seven,
right throughout the British Empire, the slave trade is banned.
I can't buy slaves anymore, I can't sell you slaves anymore.
But I'm going to hang on to the slaves that
I do have, and that lasted for twenty seven years
until eighteen thirty four. Now that's almost an aside. It's

(01:42:45):
not really that relevant to what I'm about to say,
but it gives some sense of perspective. During that period,
an event known as the Great Crushing occurred, the infantah
Neh and all of that. There's absolute consensus between all
serious scholars on this subject, and that is that the

(01:43:09):
number of black people in South Africa at that time
was roughly three million. And in this Great Crushing, this
enormous civil war between black people, not involving whites at
all at all, no whites participated. There's no record, there's
no allegation, there's no claim, there's no nothing. The blacks

(01:43:33):
killed about two thirds of their population, something like two thirds,
and they're fantastic records of this. And these were in
regions that had not been ever occupied by whites, because
the whites had not yet fled the Cape of Good

(01:43:55):
Hope in reaction to the slaving laws. It was only
after eighteen thirty four that the whites said, we hate
the British Empire. We don't want anything more to do
with the Queen. They can all go to hell. We're
leaving this colony, this British colony. By then it was British,
although it was founded by the Dutch. And we're setting

(01:44:19):
off into the hinterland to create new republics, the famous
poor republics. And off they went. But that began only
in response to the slaving dramas of eighteen thirty four
and thereabouts. So prior to that, in the regions outside

(01:44:40):
of those or that large region occupied by the whites
and the bushmen, only the whites and the bushmen, the
very sparsely scattered, the scarified bushmen. Only it was only
in the mid is that the whites left that region

(01:45:02):
and went into the regions that had hitherto been occupied
by the blacks. And whether people like this argument or not,
the reality is that the whites went into a region
you can look it up, of about seven hundred eight
hundred thousand square kilometers. I don't know what that is

(01:45:23):
in miles and square miles, that was settled only by
about a million people who had survived the infectani and
liberal what do you call these people? Liberal missionaries, liberal adventurers,
David Livingston and the like. They recorded, never mind the conservatives,

(01:45:47):
the terrible racist the white South Africans blah blah blah.
The liberals recorded how they treked for days and days
and days, sometimes weeks, without seeing a living soul, but
seeing tens of thousands of corpses and skeletons and so
on scattered all over the show. So that's by way

(01:46:09):
of giving some background to the mineral question. In the
eighteen sixties and eighteen eighties, gold and diamonds were discovered,
the largest load of or resource, if you like, of
diamonds in the world. And then certainly and until today
the US United States Geological Survey claims on its website

(01:46:37):
until today that the largest gold resources in the world,
over fifty percent, not just the largest, but over fifty
percent of all of the world's gold resources until today,
reside in South African soil. So along come the whites.
They go into this very depopulated country. They set up

(01:46:57):
these boyer republics. They leave the black people to their
own devices. That is to say, you've got your place,
no problem, we all settle over here. This was a
very well known thing. There was very little pushing out
or anything of that nature. If you're there, considering that
you're very few and we're very few, well everything should

(01:47:19):
be okay. And then the whites discovered the minerals, and
of course, to this day it causes enormous resentment because
there is the perception among black people that if you
hadn't held us back, you know, we were surging forward,
we were on the very verge of breaks through out

(01:47:39):
of the Stone Age into the Space Age or whatever.
If you hadn't discovered those mineral resources and exploited them
for yourselves, well we would have found them and we
would have built mind shafts and mines and what have you.
But it's an argument that's not taken very seriously, not
even by black people. Hopelessly unrealistic argument. So yes, it

(01:48:02):
does cause tension and resentment and what have you, but
it's not a terribly serious argument in pragmatic terms.

Speaker 1 (01:48:12):
Well, if you're into the late eighteen hundreds, why don't
you jump into the nineteen hundreds and bring.

Speaker 2 (01:48:18):
Us up to.

Speaker 1 (01:48:21):
What would have caused what is known as apartheid.

Speaker 5 (01:48:25):
Well, the Bours formed excuse me, two republics. So the
Burs are the white descendants of the first Dutch settlers
intermingled with French Huguenots. That is to say, French Protestants

(01:48:46):
fleeing the revocation of the Edict of Nant. I won't
get into all of the details, but for your religious
listeners that may be relevant. Intermingled with demobili German Lutheran soldiers,
so in other words, soldiers from the north of Germany

(01:49:07):
following that various wars. I wanted to say that Eighty
Years War, but that was a bit before. So you
had these three groups who came in in the sixteen
hundreds and they intermarried and they formed a new breed
of people, as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle of Sherlock Holmes

(01:49:28):
Fame described so very eloquently in his book on the
World War. And they settled and they hung around Cape
Town for a long time, from the mid sixteen hundreds
until the eighteen thirties. As I've already described to you,
following the imposition of British laws upon the people of

(01:49:53):
the colony, they decided to leave and they founded three
new republics. We're going to leave the one on the
one side, because it was almost immediately taken over by
the British, was a bit of a failure in that sense.
And the two well known republics were the Orange Free
State and the Transvole, which by the way, is not
its correct name, but it's the name that people might recognize.

(01:50:16):
In eighteen fifty two and eighteen fifty four. Eighteen fifty two,
the Transvole and then ironically the lower portion, the first
that was discovered, only became a republic two years later.
They became known as the Boer republics. Boer means farmer,

(01:50:38):
so these Dutch slash Hugenot Lutheran people, and they were
characterized by their religion that the French and the Germans
they were Huguenots. They were not French people. They were
French Protestants fleeing the revocation of the Edict of Nant
and the Germans were Lutheran Germans who'd been demobilized following

(01:51:03):
certain European wars. They're looking for a place to go.
These people formed this kind of proto nation. And when
that those people went out to form these new republics,
all they really just ran away from British rule. They
didn't know that they were going to form republics. They

(01:51:25):
began to call themselves trakburen, which means pull farmers or
itinerant farmers, and the name bur Stuck so to this day,
the Afrikana, the Afrikaans speaking people of South Africa, the
very conservative, tough ones, the famous ones, are referred to

(01:51:49):
themselves as boors, which means farmers. It's people very closely
attached to the land. It's quite almost a sensitive thing,
you know, there's a deep, deep de thing of the
soil is under our fingernails and we don't clean it
out from there. And those two republics declared independence in

(01:52:13):
eighteen fifty two and eighteen fifty four. Lo and behold
gold was I mean, diamonds were discovered in the eighteen
sixties in the one province, and so Queen Victoria bought
that portion of that province for the South Africans who
watched the same may not be aware that Kimberly and
surrounding areas was once part of the Orange Free State.

(01:52:34):
And then gold was discovered and the British invaded. It
was a long series of pretexts and dramas and nonsense
and what have you. But the Boer War took place
between eighteen ninety nine and nineteen oh one, and within
a few months, the very very few months. Many people
don't know this, the British had practically won. They had

(01:52:57):
won ninety percent of the war just a few holdouts,
and I do mean just a few months. The balance
of the two years was just a matter of a
few holdouts riding through the felt endeavoring to escape. The
British absolutely steamrolled the tiny, tiny bour force of about

(01:53:17):
thirty odd thousand men, and in the process, as is
well known, the British established not the first concentration camps
in modern history, but certainly the second or third. And
they starved to death something like thirty thousand Boer women

(01:53:39):
and children, which was a fantastic proportion of the population
and the British then that ends in nineteen oh one,
nineteen oh two, but two thousand and I mean, I
think at nineteen ten the British established complete rule over
South Africa. It was broken up into four provinces and
the British ruled from nineteen ten until nineteen sixty, and

(01:54:03):
that was known as the Union of South Africa. The
majority of the white people remained Afrikaans speaking, so in
other words, the Afrikana bur people and the minority of
whites in South Africa was the English speaking people. Yeah,
the English speaking people. So there was this very dominant

(01:54:25):
Buor folk, but they didn't have their own government. It
was a British colony, and they brought in the a
part of what later became known as the Aparthe eight Laws.
They didn't give the name apart eight to those laws,
but they were the ones the British who said, well, look,
if we're going to be running this place, you know,
the boys have been a bit slap dash about these things.

(01:54:47):
They've been allowing the Blacks to settle wherever they want
and occupy whatever land they wanted. There's been a very
cozy relationship here. But we need to formalize things. We
British colonizers, we don't play around when it comes to colonialism.
We need rules, strict lots of strict rules. And so
they brought in the idea of blacks being able to

(01:55:10):
travel on the same train, or only being able to
travel on one compartment of a train, while the rest is,
you know, one hundred people in one compartment whereas ten
people in another six compartments. They're devoted to whites. They
brought in the first group areas acts and so on
and so forth, Which is not to say that conservative

(01:55:34):
white South Africans like myself abdicate all responsibility that we say,
all goodness me, we would never have been so brutal.
It's the British who did that. That's not the point.
What we're saying is we were advocates of a Part eight. However,
don't make the mistake of believing that we came up
with the idea. It was in place for fifty one

(01:55:59):
years before the South Africa became a republic, before we
were no longer a colony of Great Britain and the
South African Aparthe eight ended effectively in nineteen ninety two.
I won't go into the details, but if you would

(01:56:20):
prefer not to give me the benefit of the doubt,
then let's say nineteen ninety four when the ANC formally
took over. So that means there was fifty one years
of British colonial rule during which all of those laws
were established by none all of them, and then a
Part eight as people know it, as people blame us for,

(01:56:42):
because they never blame the flaming British, do they ever
a Part eight? Real aparties It was not fifty one years,
It was at most thirty three years. But actually a
little bit lease So I think that that's kind of
a comprehensive answer to your question.

Speaker 1 (01:56:59):
Pete, Well, I think a lot of people would like
to know what life was like. I mean, I don't
I'm not asking your age. I don't know if you
were conscious of what was going on when apartheid was
under way, but a lot of from everything that Western
media would tell us, it was just basically oppression of

(01:57:23):
blacks all day, every day and white Scots to live
like kings and enslave them. And they make it seem
like no white person in the country was working at
the time. So can you talk a little bit about
what conditions were actually like.

Speaker 5 (01:57:41):
Relatively speaking, they were poor, relatively speaking, white people lived
in Well for instance, I don't come from a wealthy family,
not at all. My dad worked in a factory. He
worked his way up to a senior position, but he
was a tree worker and we were five kids, so

(01:58:04):
there wasn't a lot of money. And I grew up
during the seventies and eighties. I'm born in nineteen seventy one.
I'm fifty two years old now, so I grew up
in that period. Following the impositions of sanctions by the
world in the mid seventies. Beginning in the mid seventies
were now our rand value collapsed. So to give you

(01:58:25):
a sense of perspective, a bigger partner dollar now costs
a twenty ran. When I was a kid, a dollar
cost fifty of our cents, so our rand currency was
worth twice as much as the dollar. And then the

(01:58:46):
sanctions were imposed and it was all broken and destroyed
forever more and then exacerbated obviously when the anc took over.
But we grew up in a house of a double
story brick house on a sixteenth of an acre, five bedrooms,

(01:59:10):
you know, that kind of standard, very comfortable Western European thing.
You know, the kind of house you would like to
you would statistically we're likely to grow up in as
an American or a Canadian, or a middle class Australian,

(01:59:30):
New Zealander or South Africa. And obviously white people are
bigger part in. Black people didn't have that. Black people
didn't have the opportunity to obtain such wealth. The overwhelming
majority lived in what were known as four rooms, the
famous four rooms that were built by the apartheid government.

(01:59:55):
And I'll tell you an interesting story. I was the
project manager of a very very famous, probably the most
famous African National Congress conference ever. I was a what's
known as a special projects projects manager, so things like
opening ceremonies of the Olympics or the World I never

(02:00:17):
did the Olympics, I'm just giving an example, or the
closing ceremony of the World Cup of Football, or presidential inaugurations.
That's what I did for an occupation for many years.
And at this very famous conference, very very big, huge,
there was a riot among the ANC, the senior members

(02:00:40):
of the ANC, the five thousand most senior members of
the ANC. Within the venue, there wasn't a room big
enough to hold the conference. A room in South Africa,
no indoor sports stadium, no nothing. And so a huge
tent was rented on Germany and it was imported and

(02:01:01):
this tent was erected for this enormous conference. Five thousand
most senior members plus others, five thousand, five hundred people
in the room. I'm the project manager. I'm standing at
the back, you know, making sure that everything's going well,
that the audio visual is going well, the audio that

(02:01:22):
is that that da da da da. And this riot
breaks up, people beating one another over the head with
chairs and desks and what have you. And the guy
next to me was a friend of mine and he
was a famous ANC activist. It was pure coincidence that
he and I were in the role that we were in.

(02:01:43):
We weren't there as anything but technicians as it were,
of the event. And this guy's name is Mobi Mobi Mabaso.
It means ugly. His mother called him ugly when he
was born. That's his real name. And knowing that besides
being an audio visual gene, he was an ANC activist
and a very good friend of mine, I was able

(02:02:05):
to turn to him and say what now, movie, what
the flip is going on now? And he said to me, Simon,
people are upset that in the By then the ANC
had been in power for fourteen years, he said, and
we took over the building of the houses. We started

(02:02:26):
building rubbish. So black people lived in these famous four
room houses built by a part eight, which were supposedly
disgusting and disgraceful. But fourteen years later, the entire leadership
of the African National Congress, five thousand people were beating
one another over the head with desks and chairs and

(02:02:49):
what are known as gooseneck microphones over the inability of
the African National Congress to deliver to black people a
fraction of what white people had been able to deliver.
I think that my answer gives you a sense of perspective.
Nobody's alleging that black people lived like kings. But what

(02:03:09):
is a matter of fact is that black people in
white in a part eight South Africa were afforded a
standard of living by the state, by the state that
was incomparable throughout Africa and certainly has not been compared
in the intervening thirty years.

Speaker 1 (02:03:31):
Simon, let me ask you. You mentioned that in nineteen
ninety four the ANC took over. Was that an I
assume that was an election, right?

Speaker 5 (02:03:43):
Yeah. By the mid eighties it became clear that the
South Africa's position was untenable. Now this is debatable, and
conservative white South Africans who watched this video might become
very offended by what I'm about to say, but they
must also understand that I have to I can't spend
fifty fifteen hours on this interview, so I have to
keep things simple, and the best way to do that

(02:04:05):
is to go for the general. So the general is
this universal sanctions and a twenty seven percent annual inflation
rate made South Africa's sustainability very difficult and through a
series of shenanigans and false moves and deceit and all

(02:04:26):
sorts of devious things. In nineteen ninety the government presented
white South Africa with a referendum, a beggar pardon sorry,
a bigger parton in nineteen ninety the government released Nelson
Mandela under phenomenal pressure February nineteen ninety. Then in nineteen

(02:04:49):
ninety two, the government asked White South Africa to vote
on continuing negotiations with the African National Congress. So there
was a sticking point, a real impasse. At that time.
Conservative White South Africa were saying how dare you betray us?
And liberal White South Africa were saying, well, you've got
to do more. And there was a lot of agitation

(02:05:13):
within the country, a lot of violence, political murders, Winnie
Mandela and her necklacing. It was a difficult, difficult time,
and White South Africans, allegedly whether the vote or the
results were true or not is another matter, allegedly voted
just over two thirds yes, please continue negotiations with the

(02:05:36):
African National Congress so that we can hold free and fair,
multi racial, universal plebisite elections, and we can get back
to playing rugby with the rest of the world, and
international cricket and free trade and so on and so forth,
and investment. We want McCain's vegetables to appear on our

(02:05:59):
super mar shells. We want Burger king to appear in
South Afrik, so on and so forth. So yes, nineteen
ninety Nelson mandelas released nineteen ninety two, this huge seminal
rubicon crossing of the rubicon moment election is held. And
then in nineteen ninety four, on the twenty seventh of

(02:06:21):
April nineteen ninety four, the first multiracial election was held.
It was won by the African National Congress under the
leadership of Nelson Mandela.

Speaker 6 (02:06:32):
What happened after that, Well, the A and C took
over and they were given arguably the greatest benefit of
the doubt of any.

Speaker 5 (02:06:46):
Ruling party in government in the history of the world.
They could do no wrong. The African National Congress has
spent thirty years one of the world's gems. Now to

(02:07:06):
some people, that makes no difference. Some people will say
to you, well, it doesn't matter. Freedom and equality and
justice are all that count and those were not present
during A Part eight, not for the majority, the black majority.
Therefore it doesn't matter. The ANC remains legitimate. The entire

(02:07:30):
process is a legitimate. The New South Africa, or the
Rainbow Nation as it's called, is legitimate. Fine, no problem,
it's okay. We're not going down that road here. I'm
just going to tell you that whether A Part eight
was good or bad, whether the New South Africa is
good or bad, it's a catastrophe of the first class.

(02:07:54):
And I'll give you some illustrations at the times prior
to and after we keep it simple. Prior to nineteen
ninety four, South Africa produced more than double the electricity
produced by all of the rest of the now fifty

(02:08:15):
four countries of Africa, so one versus fifty three. But
at the time there weren't fifty four countries. I think
there were fifty two, so it was one versus fifty one.
So one country produced more than double all of the
electricity that the other fifty one put together were able
to produce. South Africa produced more than double the potable

(02:08:40):
water that the other fifty one countries of Africa were
able to produce. South Africa's standards of education for black
people were country miles ahead of the majority of African countries.
The Aparthe government provide. I did the famous four room

(02:09:02):
houses to all black families, the four room houses that
I've already described to you. Chris Hahni Baragwanath Hospital in
Soweto is or was, i should say, the largest hospital
in the world for decades and decades and decades. So

(02:09:23):
there were many features of a party that were far
more beneficial to Black Africans than freedom. Democracy, love, peace
and the wind blowing through your hair are to them now,
and I'll give you a few illustrations of the negatives.

(02:09:45):
In the week prior to my departure for the USA,
the daily rotational blackouts, every man, woman and child in
the country has the same, but it's staggered forty five
minutes for my suburb, then an hour and a half
for yours, then two and a half hour for the
next cup. But the national blackouts were nine and a

(02:10:09):
half hours a day no electricity, and in the previous
week to that they were eleven and a half hours
a day. Now, imagine trying to use a cell phone,
use the internet, run a machine shop, run a beauty parlor,

(02:10:32):
run a dollar store. Imagine trying to do schooling education,
Imagine trying to run a hospital with out electricity. It's
too much for your mind, Pete. It really is that bad.

(02:10:56):
The economy of Africa is absolutely dominated. And if anybody
would like to now take advantage of this opportunity to
pull up a map of Africa while I'm waffling, they
can do so very easily. Just type into Google or
open Google Earth. If you pull up a map of Africa,

(02:11:16):
zoom in to the bottom and hopefully you will be
able to identify the province of kW Teng. kW Teng
is a teeny tiny little province in South Africa, miniature,
and it produces almost one fifth of the GDP of

(02:11:45):
all of Africa to this day. Now imagine being the
province of kW Teng and the African National Congress says,
we and Africa really need you keep going, boy, but
we can't give you electricity. It's a flaming joke, Pete.

(02:12:06):
That is African National Congress rule. It is Africanist rule.
It's the rule of inability, the rule of incompetence, the
rule of lack, the rule of failure, the rule of poor, poor,
weak inferior eleven and a half hours a day, and

(02:12:28):
not three decades ago, South Africa was producing more than
double the electricity of all of the other countries of
Africa put together. That's African National Congress rule for you, Pete.

Speaker 1 (02:12:44):
Is it incompetence or is it punishment or is it both?

Speaker 5 (02:12:49):
I would say that it's both. I would say that
the punishment or the spitefulness has got a lot to
do with the global elites. So, at the risk of
saying something that becomes mystical and you know your audience
finds annoying, I think that by now any thoughtful person

(02:13:13):
has figured out for themselves that the COVID pandemic and
the clot shot program and many other things that occur
in the world are not do not occur at the
behest of the putative leaders. Joe Biden is not Joe

(02:13:34):
Biden's boss. And the list goes on that there is
some kind of a ruling elite. Is at the Rothschilds,
Is it the Rockefellers? Is it that we do? But
what we do know is that the African National Congress
is a communist party. We know that communism is derived

(02:13:57):
from tumundism. This is not you. Nobody knows it because
nobody likes to read. I know.

Speaker 1 (02:14:05):
A lot of the listeners know it, right.

Speaker 5 (02:14:08):
Cole Marx wrote extensively about how the first role of
communism was to destroy I'm referring now specifically to his
writings and the fourth critique of Hegel on this subject,
how the first and primary role of communism is to
destroy God in his manifestation on earth, which is the

(02:14:30):
Christian family. And so we know these things. So I
believe that the African National Congress is a tool for
destroying the very very conservative, very Christian African abour falk.
But I believe that they've been chosen suitably. You know,
It's one thing for me to choose as my chosen

(02:14:53):
instrument to saw a piece of wood a teaspoon. It's
another thing for me to choose, for the purposes of
sawing a piece of wood a wood saw, or even
a hack saw, or even for that matter, a chisel
to do some kind of piercing penetrating a job on

(02:15:16):
a piece of wood. I would say to you that
the African National Congress, by virtue of its inherent antipathy
for labor for industriousness, for productivity, for study. As the

(02:15:38):
great South African super liberal scholar Jimmy what is his name, Oh,
dear me, Simon. I'll think of his name in a minute.
As he said in a speech a few years ago,
the reality is that there is an absence of a
culture of learning in in black South Africa. He was

(02:16:03):
just saying it like it is, even though he's a
super liberal guy, and somebody had to sooner or later.
So I think that what global communism did, what the
elites did, what it's the rothschilds or that is say
in South Africa, we want these people to be destroyed

(02:16:23):
by those people. How do we go about it? And
somebody said, well, let's play to the strengths of those people.
We know that they that they hate industriousness and productivity,
we know that they are extremely vindictive people. Let us

(02:16:45):
allow them to use those particular qualities, to employ those
particular qualities. If they were a hammer, let them hammer
rather than saw, or rather than use them to eat yogurt,
lit them hemma the hammers. And I think that's what
we're seeing playing out in South Africa now as so

(02:17:07):
much collapses, education system collapsed, railway system absolutely collapsed, electricity
system completely collapsed, the government's administration system very much collapsed.
We've seen play out the natural extension of exploiting the

(02:17:30):
inherent qualities of the African National Congress as a communist
party in taking over the new South Africa or in creating,
if you like, the new South Africa Rainbow Nation.

Speaker 1 (02:17:45):
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(02:19:16):
of years ago, in twenty twenty one, video was coming
out of South Africa showing incredible violence, shopping malls being destroyed. Well, gunfights,
I mean firefights in the streets. What happened then? Can
what can you describe it as happening?

Speaker 2 (02:19:33):
Then?

Speaker 1 (02:19:33):
What caused that?

Speaker 5 (02:19:35):
Well? I should first point out to you that it
has since come out in numerous liberal media that those
events are regarded by those in the know as a
rehearsal for revolution, and people who are interested in the
subject are welcome to look up the following search term

(02:19:59):
as one of me. Any examples the Daily Maverick July
Riots twenty twenty one rehearsal for revolution. There's a numerous
special reports on the subject, tremendous evidence for the fact
that it was really, when all is said and done,

(02:20:23):
a covert rehearsal for a later revolution. But ostensibly, on
the surface of it, it was a matter of the
former president, Jacob Zumer having to go to jail, and
him refusing to go to jail, and him being kind

(02:20:43):
of semi forced, and eventually in going to jail, it
caused his supporters to go berserk. And for I think
it was eight nights. I think it was the sixth
to the fourteenth, if I remember correctly, eighth to the sixteenth. Anyway,
I believe it was eight nights of rioting occurred. You know,

(02:21:07):
people Zulu people were very unhappy that the first Zulu
president of South Africa, the Zulus being well being the
largest ethnic group of South Africa, very unhappy that the
poor man had to go to jail for his many
and many, many, many and various crimes ranging from admitted

(02:21:29):
rape to well everything else under the sun. So they
went on this rampage and they looted and pillaged and
marauded and burned and so on and destroyed what in
South African terms, I'm not going to even attempt to convert,

(02:21:50):
you know, give an exchange rate, because it's misleading. If
I said it was ten billion dollars worth of damaged,
people would sy, oh, it's only ten billion dollars. In
South Africa terms, that means everything. So it just destroyed
a lot, and there was a lot of violence not

(02:22:10):
only that took place that I'm describing to, but that
came out of it. So what happened was that the
black people went on the rampage and the Indian We
have the largest population of Indians from India outside of
India in the world. When I say we that province

(02:22:32):
the surrounds. It's where I grew up. So I grew
up knowing and seeing, regardless of Aparte, just who was there,
who was in the street, who was whatever behind the counter?
Far more Indian people than black people there. The Indian
people outnumber the Zulu people the black people in that

(02:22:55):
immediate vicinity around those cities. And as the riots grew
or picked up pace, the perpetrators became emboldened, and they
began to enter white and Indian neighborhoods. So the neighborhoods

(02:23:20):
from apart eight days have obviously changed tremendously. It's nothing
like it used to be, but you still have these
kind of you know, this is traditionally where the Indian
people were obliged by law to live. That's traditionally where
the black people were obliged by law to live. That
is traditionally where the colored people, that is to say,

(02:23:41):
the mixed race people who insist upon being called colored,
where the colored people lived, and the whites and so on,
and so these zulus began to enter these areas, and
the whites and the Indians began to form sort of
vigilante defense committees, and they killed many, many, many, many

(02:24:06):
many black people, which upset the African National Congress no end.
The reasoning of the African National Congress was, if a
thousand people approach your suburb, to rape your wife into
to plunder your house, your first resort should not be

(02:24:28):
to shoot them dead. It should be to give way.
And who knows what, I don't think you know, anybody
in the African National Congress has ever explained exactly how
the matter should have been handled, But it has since
become a matter of huge racial tension, enormous racial tension
between particularly the Indians and the black people, to a

(02:24:50):
lesser extent, the whites and the Blacks, most particularly the Indians.
There's a level of hatred that now exists between those
two racial population groups. Yes, but we're talking at more
localized levels. So let's call them those two racial communities
that has historically probably never existed because the Indians stood

(02:25:12):
up for themselves and said this far and no further,
you're not coming over our garden wall. Excuse my language,
I beg your pardon, Pete.

Speaker 1 (02:25:20):
So when we were talking on the phone the other day,
you made it very clear to me that with everything
you had described in the beginning, why don't you give here,
let's do this. Why don't you give an overview of
what you were talking about as far as the Geneva convention,
and it's basically its preparation for what you know is

(02:25:43):
going to happen in the future.

Speaker 5 (02:25:46):
Firstly, let me quickly say that the elderly liberal and
very famous Oxford Oxford University scholar to whom I was
referring earlier. Whom I was quoting earlier is our W. R. W. Johnson. Yes,
following World War Two, the Geneva or not the a

(02:26:10):
Geneva Conventions. There are a number of Geneva Conventions that
extend back to the eighteen hundreds, but the most recent
iteration of the Geneva Conventions was drafted to govern the
prosecution of war. So the nations of the world came

(02:26:30):
together and said, look, we had the First World War
and there was that chlorine gas must have gased. That
wasn't very nice. And now we've had the Second World
War in Collie g some of the things that happened
a little bit on the nasty side. Perhaps we should
write some treaties, some laws to ensure that we're not

(02:26:54):
quite so horrible to one another next time round. And
so in nineteen forty nine the Geneva Conventions of nineteen
forty nine were ratified. Fast forward twenty eight years, and
by nineteen seventy seven it had been recognized that there
were a number of meaningful loopholes in the Geneva Conventions

(02:27:16):
of nineteen forty nine. So the protocols Additional Protocols one,
two and three are known as the Protocols Additional of
nineteen seventy seven to the Geneva Conventions of nineteen forty
nine were ratified, and those three protocols pay attention particularly

(02:27:40):
to the circumstances of civilians in conflict. So they addressed many, many, many,
many many features of what parties what they call parties
to a conflict may and may not do with particular
reference to civilians to non parties to a conflict. And

(02:28:05):
we sat Lunders have constituted ourselves under those provisions of
the Protocols Additional to the Geneva Conventions. One of the
things that they provide for is for identifiable ethnic groups. Now,
identifiable ethnic group doesn't mean that, you know, if I'm

(02:28:25):
if I'm black, or if I'm very black, or if
I'm not, if I'm like black, or whatever it means.
It means more than just that. It means language and
culture and religion and profession. What do I profess to be.
I'm a Muslim, speak Bosnian with which is a South

(02:28:47):
Slavic language, and I say I'm a Bosnian couse of art.
That's who I am. That's the identification of me. Identifiable
ethnic groups are permitted to pursue the preparations for the

(02:29:08):
erection of national emergency plans or emergency plans for their people.
In the event I'm just going to shift a lamp
that's burning my eyes in the event of international and
non international conflict. But there's one strict proviso, and that

(02:29:29):
is that those parties have to become or those actors,
let's say those actors have to become non parties to
a conflict. So if there was a civil war in
South Africa, civil war broke out tomorrow, Sat London's would say,

(02:29:51):
we don't want to be a part of this. Otherwise
we're going to lose. The IGIs the protection of international
law and heard a nice national emergency plan for ourselves.
So we're going to withdraw from the conflict and establish
a safe zone, erect a perimeter, a defended a defensible

(02:30:13):
and defended perimeter that's perfectly legal, but not be proactive,
not be a protagonist in the conflict whatsoever. We will
merely defend this perimeter and as I've already said, become
a non party to the conflict. And that's the gist

(02:30:36):
of it. The Geneva Conventions, the protocols, additional the provisions
for identifiable ethnic groups to prepare for a conflict and
then how they must act. What is the nature of

(02:30:56):
that protection, What does it mean. It means that I
must withdraw from the conflict, I must be a non
party to it. But it also means that I can
establish a safe area and defend it.

Speaker 1 (02:31:09):
Simon, when we talked the other day, you you made
it very clear that you you didn't have a white
pill for me. You you made it clear that you
think that what's going to happen in South Africa is
going to be the absolute worst possible thing that could happen,
and that is civil war, violence and murder, everything that

(02:31:33):
comes along with it. So why don't you tell everybody
why you think there is no there's no saving it,
there's no getting past that.

Speaker 5 (02:31:43):
Well, at the risk of answering you in an evasive man,
I don't think that Demons is going to be evasive
in the end at all. But I'll begin by saying this.
When I told you this to in twenty nineteen, I
was the main speaker at the annual party of a

(02:32:10):
prominent organization in the USA, the annual Birthday Party, and
I fell very ill the day before and I was
so ill that I couldn't read the speech I'd written,
couldn't focus my eyes on the page. And so I
walked up on stage and I said, well, here's my speech,
and I showed to them, all written out in Longhand,

(02:32:32):
as I like to do, and I said, but I
can't focus my eyes on the page. Hang over. Sorry,
I'm just going to stand here. I'm going to ramble
and waffle for a bit and then I'm going to
have to leave. I'm sorry, I'm very very ill. And
so I just started talking about this, that and the
next thing, and at some point I said, what is

(02:32:54):
clear is that violence, widespread violence, will break out in
the USA in the very near future. After the speech,
I was invited up to somebody's hotel room. The event
took place in a hotel, and this very distinguished gentleman said,

(02:33:15):
why don't you come up and have a chat with
me and my friend. I said, oh, what a privilege,
what a lovely invitation. And I went up and here
and his friend were chatting, and I sat and listened
to their wise words. And at some point the friend,
again a very very distinguished gentleman, looked up at me

(02:33:36):
from under his eyebrows like that and told me how
he was, how offended he was, or how much he
disagreed anyway with my allegation that there would be widespread
violence in the USA in the foreseeable future. Three months later,
the Portland Riots broke out. Five people from this audience.

(02:33:58):
After the Portland Riot broke out three months later, they
sent me messages saying, how my name is fred I
was in the audience, blah blah blah. I got your
number from Joe Hope. You don't mind me sending you
a message? How did you know? We're not gurus, we
don't have some special gift pet but we've kind of
watched this movie before, and we know how society breaks up.

(02:34:22):
We know how society fractures, how schisms form overnight in society.
And it was apparent to me, having spent a lot
of time in the USA in twenty seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen,
that there were certain levels of tension that were absolutely irremediable,

(02:34:46):
They couldn't be remedied, and they were at one another.
They were at one another in the newspapers, and they
were at one another. Given a speech a few months
before in Tennessee at which there were three hundred protesters
going berserk. All these best swimming I'm sorry to say.
I mean, you know, God made them. Far be it
from me, but not only a beast generally ugly with

(02:35:11):
purple hair and rings through their eyeballs, and who knows
where else screamy shut here. And one guy standing next
to me there was a police court, a huge police
cordon that one guy standing next to me said, you
know that they're here for you, don't you know? I
looked at it in astonishment. You're joking, said yeah, yeah, yeah,

(02:35:31):
he said. The other speakers, you know they wouldn't be here.
The point is that we when there's that level of hatred,
the three hundred people come to a hotel to throw
bricks and glass bottles and to wallow in their filthy obesity,

(02:35:54):
and before your very eyes, to prove a point. It's
it's difficult to turn the clock backwards. It's difficult for
that thing to kind of go away. What tends to
happen is that it matures and festers and eventually begins
to suppurate, like an over developed boil or not to
be common, but it's some kind of pimple that hasn't

(02:36:15):
been attended as it should have been. It doesn't just
magically disappear. And we believe the same of South Africa.
We believe that the degree and the extent of the
crisis in South Africa now is such that it can't
be fixed. In twenty sixteen, Tuesday, Tuesday, the sixth of November,

(02:36:44):
if I'm not mistaken, maybe no, maybe perhaps it was
a Thursday. I'll forget. The leader of our Marxist political party,
Julius Malema, famously said I'm not calling for the slaughter
of all whites, at least for now. I think that
was verbate and what he said, and he's repeated that
many times since. And at the thirteenth birthday celebrations of

(02:37:09):
that political party, the Economic Freedom Fighters this year in
the famous FNB Stadium in Soweto, Johannesburg, before one hundred
thousand people. And there's a reason why, I, as a
longtime projects manager for very huge events, can tell you
with some authority that the number was almost certainly one

(02:37:30):
hundred thousand people. Before one hundred thousand people sang the
song kill the Farmer, Kill the Boer for the umpteenth time.
It's highly provocative and on the second of June of
this year, our President, while speaking as the guest of
honor or the main speaker at the annual conference of

(02:37:54):
the African National Congress Youth League, said it may be
that in the near future we are not able to
hold on to power, and we will require you to
become the militant youth, such as the Youth League, the

(02:38:20):
youth of the African National Congress of the fifties, sixty
seventies and eighties. And he went on, and what he
was saying is that our polling figures for next year's elections,
there will be an election on roughly the twenty seventh
of April next year. The precise date is not yet appointed.

(02:38:44):
If we've what he was alluding to is the fact
that in recent months has come out at the ANC
for the first time has ever has significantly less than
fifty percent of the vote, perhaps as low as thirty five,
thirty six percent or will get You're saying that if
we do not win the elections, we're going to have

(02:39:06):
a proper revolution his words, not mine. In other words,
a real, actual, violent Marxist Leninist revolution. And we sat
Landers believe that that has been that writing has been
on the wall since forever. The fact that the mainstream
media can only see it now and report it now,

(02:39:27):
and the fact that academia is only now obliged by
the latency of it, the conspicuousness of it, the undeniability
of it, to acknowledge it doesn't mean that it hasn't
been there. It has been there since forever.

Speaker 7 (02:39:44):
It was always just a matter of time before the
new South Africa Rainbow Nation.

Speaker 5 (02:39:56):
Became very much less tenable than the world believed and
proclaimed it to be in the late eighties, the early
nineties and nineteen ninety four. In the late eighties and
early nineties, you will remember all across the world there
was a chorus of praise for how wonderful Nelson Mandela was,

(02:40:20):
and how great an anc government would be, and how
the wind would blow better, and our hair would blow
better in the wind, and the daisies would smell nicer,
and the money would grow on the trees more abundantly,
and these, you know, hopelessly unrealistic superlatives that were used
to describe the idol, the idyll that would be the

(02:40:44):
new South Africa Rainbow Nation. And for a long time
people like myself and our leader, mister Gustaf Mala, the
founder of our organization. I'm merely his employee, have said,
you know what, this is not right, is not right.
You know, the murder rate in the USA is roughly

(02:41:07):
five per one hundred thousand per year. Five people of
every one hundred thousand are killed in intentional homicide, as
the United Nations calls it. Every year. In South Africa
it's thirty nine thirty eight point something. The USA is

(02:41:33):
supposed to be this gun mad, blood lusting society. You
guys haven't a clue. In fact, you don't try very
hard at all. Your desire to butcher somebody and drink
their blood, your desire to cut open a woman, or

(02:41:54):
to murder a child, or to savagely slaughter an elderly person,
is I would say, decidedly tepid. You are lukewarm, Pete.
And it seems to me that you're given a great
deal of credit for something that you're not actually doing,

(02:42:16):
and you should perhaps make a little bit more effort
if you wish to deserve the credit that you have
in the whole effing world for being the most bloodthirsty
people ever born. Going by the amount of attention that
is given to the USA and every shooting and every
murder and every FBI file and the top ten wanted

(02:42:39):
and all these stupid programs that you thrust down the
throats of national broadcasters all around the entire world, that
we all have to watch your crap. You should put
in a little bit more effort, because it seems that
your your claim to fame is very much exaggerated. On

(02:43:00):
the other hand, know a thing or two about murder, rape,
the butchery of children and so on. And you know,
I'm being facetious and sarcastic now, and it's not very
classy of me, but that's that's the way that it is.
You know, we hear people waffling on and on about
the ANC and I mean a bigger part the USA

(02:43:24):
and the Second Amendment and all of this crap, and
we think to ourselves, you have in a flipping clue,
come come to the country that you insisted was going
to be the bit because it was principally American politicians
above all others, and American media that really like feeding
a goose, force feeding a goose to make pate fois gras,

(02:43:49):
that force fed the world the narrative of the unimpeachable
and impeccable nature of the of the African National Congress
and the fourth coming New South Africa, Rainbow Nation, New
South Africa Rainbow Nation years. So come and have a look,

(02:44:09):
and then you tell.

Speaker 1 (02:44:10):
Me, well, you had mentioned that you believe that the
twenty twenty one violence which took it's recorded three hundred
and fifty four deaths in those riots. Our riots in
twenty twenty took ten percent of that. I would say
that if they are gearing up for that kind of

(02:44:32):
revolution in this country, we're probably looking for something similar
to what you experienced in twenty twenty one before the
whole big thing kicks off. If they try, I mean
it's a little harder. I think it's a little harder
here because the country's so big and it's so spread out.
We have federalism, a lot of states have different laws,

(02:44:53):
things like that. But it does look like that there
could be full sections of the country that could fall
into exactly what you what you described and even worse
than what you're expecting in the future.

Speaker 5 (02:45:08):
Yeah, there's no question about it. The you can't reconcile
the United States of America to itself. The inherent contradictions
are just so great that there's no fixing what you
have now, Pete. I'm not saying that the United States

(02:45:28):
is going to evolve into civil war the day after tomorrow.
And even if I was saying that, I would I
would say the United States is going to devolve into
civil war the day after tomorrow. But I don't think
it's going to be bad, you know. So I'm not
saying that it's going to be it's going to happen soon,
or even that it's going to be the worst of

(02:45:49):
the worst of the worst. But I am saying that
as time goes by, this crisis of of self hatred
for want of a better expression, I'll try to think
of a better phrase, shall become more and more and

(02:46:11):
more intractable. It will become more and more difficult to
turn the clock back to the day before the Roe
versus Wade decision in nineteen seventy two. It will become
more and more difficult to turn the clock back to
the day before the series of legal decisions in US

(02:46:35):
courts of the late eighties and early nineties that have
set the precedent for the divorce laws that obtain in
the USA. Now it will become more and more difficult
for you to turn the clock back to the days
before blatant lesbian, gay whatever you lg X y Z,

(02:46:55):
whatever it's called being almost or in some cases foisted
upon children. That is not going to happen. Real life,
in the real world doesn't work like that. So the
likelihood is that this schism will continue, will continue to rupture,

(02:47:20):
and in so doing rupture more severely, and eventually it's
going to lead to a major event in the USA.
And I'm not qualified. I'm not clairvoyant, you know, so
I'm not qualified to say exactly what is but what
it is. But let me put it to you this way.

(02:47:43):
The US national debt seven years ago two thousand and
twenty three minus seven will be twenty and sixteen. The
US national debt was nineteen point eight trillion dollars, so
between seventeen seventy six. I know that Americans celebrate the

(02:48:06):
fourth of July, but the last signatory, the last signatures
to the document were in October of seventeen seventy six,
So from October seventeen seventy six, when the Republic was
properly implemented, until two thy and sixteen. Through World wars,
through civil wars, through everything, the USA was only able

(02:48:31):
to rack up a debt of nineteen point of nineteen
point eight trillion dollars in seven years. You've taken that
to over thirty three trillion dollars, So fourteen trillion dollars
versus nineteen trillion dollars in seven years versus seventeen seventy

(02:48:57):
six to twenty four, so two hundred and twenty four
and sixteen would be two hundred and forty years, two
hundred and forty years versus beat. It's bad and Americans
can't see it. And I suspect that's what's going to happen,
is that somebody of a conservative bent is going to
say that the madness that reigns in the White House now,

(02:49:24):
or in US government, or in the Treasury, if you like,
or in the Federal Reserve, or in whatever point your
finger at whichever blemish, whichever flaw on me appeals to
you the most. If I'm the body corporate of the
United States of America, you know what thing do you
hate the most? Point your finger that that is enough

(02:49:48):
to justify something absolutely radical and drastic. I'm not saying
that there's going to be a coup uitar, I am
saying that at some point somebody's going to say, well,
it's now been, you know, since twenty sixteen, it's now
been let's say, not seven years, it's ten years. And

(02:50:10):
the debt has gone from nineteen point eight trillion dollars
to sixty four whatever number. You know. Now a coup
is warranted. Now the setting off of a bomb is warranted.
Now we can get drastic and radical. What I'm saying

(02:50:32):
without trying to be overly specific, because I don't I'm
not clever, where is that things can't deteriorate this drastically,
this radically as they have, as we've all witnessed over
recent years, without sooner or later there being some kind
of a huge reaction, some real pushback. And because the

(02:50:58):
positions are so irreconciled, it's going to precipitate a terminal crisis.
So let's say my wife and I I'm not married.
I am, to my eternal regret, a bachelor. But let's
say I was married and my wife and I had

(02:51:19):
an ongoing dispute, and let's say I was goading her,
antagonizing her, giving her a hard time, and eventually one
day she turns around and she does something. All right,
that's one thing. She loses her temperature, gets it. But
just imagine that I'd done something that had betrayed her

(02:51:43):
trust forever and ever and ever and ever, and in
that context I was needling her and she retaliated. She
would probably retaliate with her and maybe stab me or
cyanide or you know, in my sleep, shoot me or something.
You know, what I'm saying is that it's one thing

(02:52:04):
to have a schism. It's another thing when the two
parties cannot in any way be reconciled. Because you cannot
reconcile LGBTQ two core America to the core values of America.

(02:52:26):
You cannot reconcile a thirty three trillion dollar debt to
the traditional pecuniousness that the traditional economical very wise with
money nature of US government. You cannot reconcile. The parties
are just so far out from one another that when

(02:52:47):
they do clash, they are going to clash in a
terminal manner. And I think that that's now absolutely inevitable.
You can't fix you can't fix the stolen election of
twenty twenty. You can't fix these, the biolabs in eastern Ukraine.

(02:53:10):
You can't undo that. You can't undo COVID and the
clot shots and the adversary actions. You can't undo the
assault on God. You can't undo. Would you believe me?
I read a figure? In fact, I went through the
table of figures, the official figures today before this interview,

(02:53:33):
just for no particular reason. Would you believe me if
I told you that the number of immigrants illegal immigrants
only to the USA in this year alone is greater
than the populations of thirty nine of the fifty states
of the USA. It's unfixable, Pete, don't fix that. You

(02:54:01):
don't get to fix that.

Speaker 1 (02:54:03):
Yeah, well, tell everybody where they can, remind everybody where
they can find more about your work and whatever, what
anybody can do.

Speaker 5 (02:54:15):
Oh, thank you very much, Pete, thank you for having
Sat Lunders on your show. We appreciate the opportunity. I
hope that the video is well watched. Please send me
a link and I'll distribute it in South Africa. Although
I should forewarn you that the overwhelming majority of our
people do not speak English, well, it's not their first language,

(02:54:37):
so that the audience is not big for English products.
People are welcome to visit satlanders dot org. That's s
U I d Landers dot org and if they would
like to make a contribution, if they'd like to assist
us in the work that we're doing. We are really

(02:54:57):
standing in the breach. We are boxing above our wait.
We are standard bearers worldwide for the conservative Caucasian Christian cause.
You can look up the speech that I gave in
the European Parliament and many other many, many hundreds of
other interviews Alex Jones, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, BBC,

(02:55:20):
CNN Russia Today to see the work that we're doing.
And if that impresses you, please be so kind as
to make a donation satlanders dot org. Do you just
enter there and go to the bottom of the page.
You'll see where you can make a donation. Thank you
very much for watching this video. I hope that I
wasn't too long winded, and I hope that you thoroughly
enjoyed it. And thank you too, Pete very much.

Speaker 1 (02:55:43):
No prom ad all. Thank you, and I'll make sure
to link to that in the show notes so people
can get to it. Very easily. Thank you, Samon, thank you,

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