December 21, 2025 • 47 mins
47 Minutes
PG-13
Kurt works for Antelope Hill Publishing.
Kurt joins Pete to talk about the speeches of Mussolini in the late war years, detailed in "Rise and Fight: Speeches from the 1943–1945 Italian Social Republic," which Antelope Hill recently published in English.
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Rise and Fight: Speeches from the 1943-1945 Italian Social Republic
The Battle for Berlin
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PG-13
Kurt works for Antelope Hill Publishing.
Kurt joins Pete to talk about the speeches of Mussolini in the late war years, detailed in "Rise and Fight: Speeches from the 1943–1945 Italian Social Republic," which Antelope Hill recently published in English.
Antelope Hill - Promo code "peteq" for 5% off
Rise and Fight: Speeches from the 1943-1945 Italian Social Republic
The Battle for Berlin
Pete and Thomas777 'At the Movies'
Support Pete on His Website
Pete's Patreon
Pete's Substack
Pete's Subscribestar
Pete's GUMROAD
Pete's Venmo
Pete's Buy Me a Coffee
Pete on Facebook
Pete on Twitter
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-pete-quinones-show--6071361/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank
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Speaker 2 (01:44):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The pekan Yonashow dot com. Everything's there. I want to
welcome everyone back to the Peking Yona Show, Kurt from
Anelopill is back.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
How are you doing, Kirk, Hey, I'm doing well. Thanks
for having me back on.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Awesome. Awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
If Kurt from Anelope Pill is here, or anyone from
Aneloe Pill is on the show, we're probably going to
be talking about one of the amazing books that you
published that you translate very often, and you know, books
that people are forgotten about. So I asked you to
come on and talk about a book of Mussolini's speeches
(02:27):
that you that Anlo Pill put out called Rise and Fight,
And these are speeches from the period of from nineteen
forty three to nineteen forty five, So just jumping right in,
why speeches from this time for him?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, I think we figured we wanted to do something
with Mussolani. He's sort of underappreciated historically, often just sort
of becomes the butt of the joke about Italy's performance
in Second World War. But of course he did sort
of do it first, and the National Socialists in Germany
(03:09):
took a lot of cues from him, took a lot
of value from the things that he had done in
the example that he had set and in terms of
why specifically this period. We found this existing publication in
Italian and we just kind of liked the idea of it.
(03:29):
The period of the war that took place in Italy
is also quite often overlooked in favor of either the
Eastern Front or the sort of D Day and post
D Day fighting in Western Europe. But the fighting in
Italy was also really quite interesting and quite difficult for
(03:52):
all the parties involved, mostly himself. Of course, He's basically
betrayed by the Royalists, by army officers, and even by
members of his own Fascist party, and there was of
course the well known story of the daring mountaintop rescue
(04:13):
by German paratroopers and Otto Skorzeny and some members of
the SS.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
After that, Mussolini.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Is sort of whisked off to I believe to Vienna
first and then returns as the leader of a new
Italian government in the North under German backing the Italian
Social Republic. And long story short, the reason that this
(04:46):
period is interesting is because this is the first time
that Mussolini and the loyal Fascists really get to do
all the things that they wanted to do. They get
to set up the audiological apparatus of their new state
without the sort of dead weight of these conservative army
(05:06):
officers and the monarchy and all of these other sort
of relics of Italy's liberal unification.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, it seems he comes out of the comes out
of prison just ready to just raring to go. You
mentioned something about how basically he he becomes a punchline
a lot for a lot that happened. And you know
what I will always remember, and you know he should
(05:38):
be remembered for, is that he I mean, he was
one of the reasons why the Nationalists won in Spain. Yeah,
he sent people to fight, he sent planes, he did,
he did what he could and that can't go that
can't go unnoticed in you know, the fight against Bolshevism
(05:59):
on the continent.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Absolutely. Yeah, And that's another thing it's often forgotten. Everyone remembers,
you know, the Condor Legion, the German forces that were
sent over and uh, the German Air Force was involved,
and obviously it was a sort of a testing ground
for the Panzer forces. But Italy, if I'm if I'm
(06:21):
not mistaken, contributed the lion's share of the the manpower
in terms of foreign volunteers. Far more than the Germans did,
and I believe they were the first to do so
as well.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, yes, yes, And it was his planes that were
brought the Army of Africa over from from Morocco. You yeah,
a very important role in keeping the Southern Peninsula Bolshevik free.
If they if if the Nationalist would have lost that war,
(07:00):
or there's no telling what would have happened if Stalin
would have gotten his invasion prior to Barbarossa, which you know,
if if you read Hoffman and you read sub Off,
you know that that's what he was planning. So let's
jump to this. He he's definitely comes out and reaffirms
(07:28):
his his commitment to the Tripartheide Pact, and so much
so he talks about he does a radio message talking
about Japan's entry of the war this December nineteen forty three.
So I think in a time when a lot of
people think that Italy and that Mussolini had they were
(07:53):
told and court history tells us that he had basically
given up, he came out a defeated man. No, that's
not that's not nearly true. He came out ready to
ready to double down in the commitment that he.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Made absolutely, and obviously there are a lot of problems
that they had to work through in terms of trying
to stand up some sort of Italian army to fight
alongside the Germans in the wake of the surrendered by
the Royalist government. But they did manage to raise a
(08:31):
few solid divisions of troops and committed to the fighting
in at least an appreciable way. There are some some
famous units, the San Marco Marines, for example, are mentioned
in here, the Decima m A s. They're the sort
(08:52):
of famous naval commandos. So they did continue fighting under
Mussolini's leadership in with the Northern government that he set
up in Milan.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And he really stretches revolutionary optimism and vitality in the
social republic. You many would think that by this point
his his commitment to fascism as a vital and dynamic
force would would start to wane, But no, he's he's
(09:28):
telling people to double down. He calls on all Italians
to persevere in the face of adversity and encourages unwavering
loyalty to the axis cause.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Absolutely, and there's there are a lot of cases of
really determined resistance even by everyday civilians. Especially in some
of these northern cities, I believe. At one point in
one of these addresses, he he notes that when the
Allies advanced into Florence, he credits the civilian population with
(10:04):
a lot of feats of resistance, including just sniper fire
in the cities, just notes that the Allies are not
in fact being received as liberators, as is the sort
of common court history narrative, but that many Italians were
not ready to simply roll over as the as the
king and his government had.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, and the the commitment to keep troops training, even training,
you know, especially training with with the Germans as as
elite defenders of the fascist cause. You know, he holds
he once again is just holding on to the ideology
that you know, it's going to be steadfast, and he
(10:51):
I mean, I guess the question is, is you know
by forty four when you read German accounts it's.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Victory.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Is you have different factions who were questioning victory. And
it seems like Mussolini didn't. He wasn't at least convinced
that they were they were going to lose, especially after
the occupation, the German occupation of Rome, as as liberators
(11:25):
from the allies.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
The situation on the ground certainly wasn't looking good for
them at this point, and in forty three, I think
it's it's not irrational to think that there was a
way that they could win or at least not lose,
fighting fighting a defensive war. By forty four, it's pretty
(11:50):
clearly hopeless, especially by late forty four, in a wake
of some pretty heavy well, of course, the D Day
landings and the destruction of a large amount of German
forces in the Filet's pocket and then in the East
with the Soviet advance and in Operation Bagrassian basically wiping
(12:11):
out an entire German army group. It's it's pretty desperate,
And of course it's hard to know exactly Mussolini's private
thoughts on the matter, but I think that he felt
that they had to fight for their cause, even if
just for for history, for posterity, even if the military
(12:36):
situation itself was hopeless. They couldn't or or he couldn't
accept the shame of surrendering before it was well and
truly over.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
When there is the new radicalism that's like suggested by
these speeches, Even when he he knows it's over. I mean,
he's he's still going on and preaching against the annihilation
of the parasitic plutocracy, the struggle against you, sirious capitalism
(13:13):
in favor of a rising labor state. Yeah, I mean,
I guess the question is is what you mentioned, is
is this just a propaganda to keep people energized, or
I mean, is he bringing these things up at the
time just that's just what it seems to be. It
(13:34):
seems to be the rallying cry that's existed all along,
and just to keep people fighting to, you know, to.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
In some hope.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Well, I've always felt that if they accomplished anything by
by their resistance sort of to the bitter end, both
in Italy and in Germany and a number of other
European states that remained with the access to the end,
it's that we're still talking about them, and and we
(14:08):
still find these causes inspirational, in large part precisely because
of how far these men were willing to go uh
in in their their resistance, in their their commitment to
those ideals.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I do.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think that's an important part of of Well.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think it must have weighed on his mind. Right.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
He might not say as much publicly in these speeches,
but I think it must have.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, you know, the.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
You know, it's come it's come out in in subsequent years,
that the in late years that you know, one of
the reasons why the Germans fought to the to the
last at Berlin was a gay of a chance for
any German citizens who wanted to get west and get
away from the get away from the Bolshevik army that
(15:09):
they could. That doesn't seem to it doesn't seem to
be the same as far as you know, what was
you know, what was eventually going to happen in Italy.
I would have to assume by this point Mussolini had
understood that understood what his fate was.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It almost makes it more impressive that there was as
much resistance in Italy because the Italians were not being
threatened with the same sort of destruction of their people
that the Germans were being threatened with. And of course
not only from the Soviets, but there was also and
I forget exactly when when it came out in the
(15:51):
German press, but they had gotten wind of the Morgenthile plan.
It was a big reason for resistance and the Goebbel's
propaganda ministry made a huge deal out of that, but
that was only pointed at Germany and not in Italy.
And yet the Italians continue to resist all the same,
(16:14):
and I think in large part because of Mussolini's example,
his commitment to the cause, refusal to sort of acknowledge
the possibility of defeat.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
What do you think the last thing legacy is of this?
I mean you've already mentioned that so much for this rhetoric,
and I don't say that, I don't call it rhetoric punitively.
It's important that every once in a while, somebody on
(16:47):
social media will post up a picture of you know,
Mussolini hung upside down, and it'll be like somebody who
thinks they're a right winger, and I'll be like, you
know that people who did that, or just the forebearers
of the people who are transing kids now, right, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Mean they would do the same thing to you, right.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, Well, I mean they just I think that's the
problem is is that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And I also think that like fascism in Italy is
maybe not as something that like the average American can
look at and see as clearly as something to be
like Hey, that is something that I might be interested
(17:41):
in as the person who looks at national socialism and
is like, well, I mean that seems to be more
European more where we come from. It may not be
the Anglo Saxon tradition that we're taught, but I mean
I can look at it and I can be like, oh, well,
you know, I can see exactly what they what they
were doing there where. Italy also seems to be a
(18:04):
little more I mean, what's a word exotic or even.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
A little bit backwards, even perhaps Median, Yeah, a little
too Mediterranean, maybe a little too a little too uh
there's a word ethnic? Yeah, yeah, I think it's I
think you're right. I think it's a lot easier for
people to see to see themselves in in the the
uniquely German manifestation it is. It's just a little bit
(18:34):
closer to the sort of Northern European uh ethos and esthetic.
But I also think in large part is because people
don't really know that much about Italian fascism or or mussolane,
which is of course something that we're trying to remedy here.
But you know, you turn on the history channel, how
much are you going to see about Moussolny that isn't
(18:57):
isn't sort of, like I said, making him the butt
of the joke about Italian incompetence in the war, or
or portraying him as as sort of Hitler's hanger on
his sidekick, right that it's often how he sort of
thought of is Hitler's sidekick. But people really underestimate the
(19:21):
contributions that the Italian fascists made. We've also we've published
some other stuff from what was sort of a precursor
movement to fascism, the whole futurist sphere, Filippo Marinetti and
oh goodness, what's his name, the guy who took over Fiame,
(19:47):
Gabriel de Nuncio.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
That's it. Geez.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, we've actually done one of the guys that's been
on to talk about doing an episode.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, and all of this stuff is it's really a
lot more interesting and a lot more meaningful than people
give it credit for.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Now, I'll say, I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I do think that there are some people out there
in the right wing sphere who make too much of
the difference between fascism and national socialism as if they
are sort of inimical in some way, or that they
have a fundamental ideological disagreement. I don't think so. I
think that they are part of the same movement, part
(20:33):
of the same fundamental alignment in like ninety eight percent
of ways. And you can see definitely even in Moslny's
rhetoric in this book. By the forties, Italian fascism, and
especially the fascism that takes place in the Social Republic
(20:54):
is much more influenced by national socialism in some of
ideological prescriptions. But far from being a deviation from earlier fascism,
I think it's the natural evolution of it. It is
actually a more pure form of what Mussolny and the
fascists in Italy set out to do.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
In the first place.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
The word stymied in a lot of respect by the
need to accommodate the old guard, the monarchists, the conservatives,
who had somewhat made their peace with the fascist movement
but remained a political power block within Italy that had
to be had to be reckoned with. Of course, Hitler
(21:40):
in thirty three takes sort of the opposite tack. When
he gets brought into the coalition with the other conservative parties.
He just seizes power. He excludes them. He says, thanks
for inviting me. Now all of you get out were
running things here, which is probably what the Italian fascists
(22:05):
should have done in the first place.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, it's interesting. I've told many people have that I've
talked to that have read Marx and understand Marx. I
think most people who read Marks don't understand Marx. I
think even people who call themselves Marxists or communists don't
understand Marx. I hate to say, but you know people
who are like, Okay, I read this and it makes sense.
(22:30):
The criticisms makes sense, but obviously the prescription is uh,
you know, it is insane, it's anti human. And I've
told many people I said, well, after you read Marx,
read the Manifesto of the Fastiss Fascist Intellectuals by Benja
and Teely, and tell me what you think. And you know,
(22:51):
when it comes to Italian fascism, I would say, is
once you read that, you're like, okay, this this seems
to fill in in the spaces where Marx, you know,
obviously went insane, and you know the insane parts of
Marx and the anti human parts of Marx, and it
seems like Italian fascism does was the first and did
(23:14):
a very very good job of answering those questions and saying, look,
this is the way, this is the way you answer that.
Of course, it's Italian, and it's ethnic, and it is
an you know, it's it's an ethnic group that can
actually come together and much better than a multicultural you know,
(23:38):
shit storm like we have now.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, absolutely, the the whole modern Marxist constellation in the
West just remains perpetually ignorant of how fascism actually sought
to contend with liberalism, right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
They they have.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
This this idea that they'll they'll quote endlessly about fascism
being like the rear guard of capitalism, like whenever capitalism
is threatened, it pulls out fascism to go beat up
communists in the streets or whatever to protect capitalism, which is,
(24:26):
as you and I know, is entirely the opposite of
the truth. Fascism from the beginning, Like yes, like if
you read Gentila and a lot of these other intellectuals
is just as inimically opposed to liberalism as it is
to Bolshevism.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Right, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
When you when you look at Italian fascism, it's not
saying that the it's not reducing the human, you know,
the man down to a unit of labor, you know,
which is what Marks you know, clearly, clearly, clearly is doing.
And it's very anti human and it's if you really understand,
(25:14):
like dialectical materialism, it is probably probably the most anti
human concept in the history of mankind because it just
strips man of of history. It strips man of who
he is, a strips man of his uh, his heritage,
where he comes from, who his people are, and it
(25:37):
tears you know, it tears him from the land. It
doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what land is, it doesn't
matter who you are. Basically, it just takes blood and
soil right out of the picture, right right out of
the picture, and says, you know what, what somebody can
do with their hands is the most important thing. And
once somebody can't do anything with their hands anymore, they're
(26:00):
life is basically useless. It's another example of people accusing,
accusing fascists of actually what actual Marxists belief.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Well.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Additionally, a lot of the especially present day Marxists again
sort of so called because we know most of these
people don't read or don't understand Marx even they confuse
or they have this idea that there's a sort of
(26:37):
capitalist culture that has to be attacked to break down
the sort of superstructure of capitalism. And they identify all
sorts of things as being like culturally capitalist, like family structures, right,
(26:57):
is one of the things that they started with, uh
very early on, like wanting children to be to be
raised communally and uh, you know, of course in the
in the Soviet Union, early on they had no fault
divorce before like anyone else, uh resulted in the total
collapse of family structure in the Soviet Union in the
(27:21):
early years before they kind of uh realed that back
in a little bit, which is just insanity. I mean,
the identify they identify basically any aspect of what you
what you might call traditional culture as being sort of
supportive of capitalism or or liberalism. I think that's one
(27:45):
of the things that that really turned people away from
from the left and towards these new fascist movements. Is
regardless of what these communist movements said about capitalism and
liberalism that that might have been largely correct in many cases,
I'll agree with them. Their whole manner of operation, the
(28:10):
way that they constantly attacked any manifestation of of like
a traditional culture, cause people to see them as little
more than barbaric despoilers, not without good reason. That's where
the fascists come in and have their own opposition to liberalism,
(28:31):
to capitalism, but make their attack on it in a
way that isn't just catching normal people in the crossfire, right,
that they actually give people.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Purpose and identity in their.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
In their people and where they come from, in their
in the social relations that they are traditionally accustomed to,
and that is a much better path forward. That's one
of the reasons that the the fascists basically across Europe
ended up being victorious against communism domestically.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Well, I mean, when you have when you have a
group of people basically pushing the ideology and running running
the country who don't have a you know, don't have
ties to it, then it's all ideology. There's there's nothing
(29:33):
grounding the ideology. It's just an ideology up in the air,
and it's just basically it's like liberalism. Liberalism doesn't have
an ideology, there's no it can't. Liberalism could have an ideology,
but it's not tied to anything it's not moored to anything.
And you know, it's yeah, I mean it's no, it's
(29:58):
no wonder at the that it got so out of
it got as out of hand in Russia as it did,
especially in the especially in the twenties. And I'm not
even talking about the Stalin's purges and everything. Those are
most people don't even really understand what was happening there.
(30:19):
But the when you have a group of people who
are in charge, who go from place, who are basically
gypsies going from place to place. Yeah, of course, the
they're not going any time they try to do something
in a country that does have uh, you know, blood
(30:42):
and soil nationalism or just that kind of history. It's
going it's you're going to come up against people who
are even if your ideology is completely anti human and slaughterists,
you're going to come up against people who are going
to be willing to fight to the death for what
they know and what they believe and what their ancestors
(31:04):
have handed down to them.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
And in the early ussr of course, they even they
had this campaign against what they called Great Russian chauvinism.
Great Russian meant like basically the people of today's Russia
as opposed to like Belarus or Ukraine. The Ukrainians were
(31:29):
also known as little Russians or like people from people
from lesser Russia, not in the sense of being like
bad or worse than the rest of Russia, but like
as this sort of more more minor part of it,
(31:50):
the part that was added to it later. And so
they basically they attacked this idea of Russian identity as
paramount in the Soviet state, which is of course bound
to fail because Russians were the overwhelming majority in their
new state. Those would of course get rolled back under Stalin,
(32:11):
and especially during the Second World War, they do a
full one eighty and they start appealing to things that
actually motivate people. They're appealing to the legacy of like
Ivan the Great and you know, the resistance against the
Teutonic Order and all of this kind of historical.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Identity to motivate people.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
And of course, you know, they bring back the Church,
they bring back all these other parts of traditional Russian identity.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
In many ways, you.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Can say with a good deal of truth that Stalin's
regime pivoted towards a sort of red fascism in a
lot of ways, But I think I want to return
to this point about liberal as and how inimical the
fascist or national socialist worldview is to it. Now, when
(33:07):
you look at these these addresses by Mussolini, he barely
talks about the Communists. Now, of course, it's true that
the Communists are not on Italian soil at this point.
It is the Western allies, and so naturally most of
his ire would be directed against them. But you have
(33:29):
to ask yourself, if you're one of these people who
thinks that fascism is sort of a rear guard for capitalism, why.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Didn't they just give up?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Why didn't they just allow themselves to be taken over
by by the West. Why was there so much resistance if,
after all they were ideologically aligned, And yet resistance only
increased after the invasion. Resistance only got stronger and stronger,
and they kept fighting in the Italian Front, turned into
(34:01):
this bloody quagmire for the Western allies. I think, to
to any thinking person, this has got to make you
ask some questions.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Well, let me ask you this. I think this probably
seems pretty obvious, but it seems like Italian fascism because
of everything that was, all of the you know, sort
of manifestos that were written. It seemed to be more
fleshed out and more i would say systematic than German
(34:36):
Nasteramal socialism, British British fascism, French fascism. It really seems
like they like they knew what they wanted and where
this was going, and better than better than the other countries.
Not not throwing shade on any of the other countries, obviously,
(35:00):
I have you know, I have sympathies to all of them,
but it definitely seems like the Italians figure this out
early and were and had that at least that advantage
over the other countries.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, I think you'd be right to say that it
was more sort of formally ideological in nature. National socialism
is made up of sort of a collection of somewhat
disparate tendencies, the Volkish movement and of course the sort
(35:37):
of reactionary element of just wanting to fight the Bolsheviks,
along with all these sort of contingent geopolitical realities that
Germany was faced with. Italy being in a different position
after the First World War, being at least on paper,
(35:57):
a victorious power, it is a little bit different. They
had a little bit more time to develop all the
stuff systematically, and I think in a way that also
made it a little bit more exportable.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, and you know, let us not forget that they
they weren't always friendly with Germany. They uh, Southern Germany
suffered suffered at the hands of Italy after the war.
There was definitely some incursions there that caused problems. So yeah,
they is as nationalists, as nationalistic as they they were
(36:41):
trying to be, there was still they were still crossing
the border and causing some problems for the for the
Southern German people for sure, and Austrians too.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh yeah, I mean up until what thirty six, there
were some some very serious disagreements between the and in
Italian governments. The the Italians had signed uh what's what's
known as the stress of Front, which is an agreement
between Italy, France and Britain.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
So yeah, in.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
This this sort of alignment between Italy, France, and Britain,
who were of course the the victorious powers in the
First World War, wasn't really broken until Mosslny's whole Ethiopian adventure,
which which put a lot of friction between Italy and
the other Western powers.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Funny enough.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
The Germans actually are supplying weapons to the Ethiopians during
this conflict, hoping to put pressure on on Italy, which
is the major roadblock to their desired annexation of Austria anyway.
So it's it's not until after this that the Italians
actually realign uh with with Germany and breakaway from the West.
(38:00):
There had been a lot of rivalry or between France
and Italy during the inter war period, but this is
the first time that there's a real rupture between them,
and it's also very similar in a lot of ways
to the German rivalry with Japan in the interwar period.
It's worth remembering also Japan was on the opposite side
(38:23):
to Germany in the First World War, seized a lot
of their Pacific colonies which Germany never recovered. And during
the inter war period, the Germans are actually supplying the
Chinese with weapons and even with training the Komantang, the
Chinese nationalists, their best divisions were actually trained by German officers.
(38:48):
Chinese troops are equipped mostly with Mauser rifles, and if
you look at any period depiction of nationalists Chinese troops,
they are wearing German style helmets but with this whole
realignment in in the thirties.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Uh, these old.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Enemies realign on ideological rather than purely geopolitical lines, and
that's that's sort of what turns the Second World War
into fundamentally an ideological conflict, which was probably inevitable, but
it's interesting to see how long it took for that
realignment to take place.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
It's interesting with the with the ideology. When you understand
the ideological angle. Obviously, countries like Romania and border countries,
countries that are immediately threatened by the Soviet Union, you
would understand why they they would side with Germany, with
the Allies with the not with the Allies with the
(39:49):
Axis and and fight and yeah. But a lot of
those were just basically anti Bolshevik. A lot of the
volunteers that came in to Germany were basically anti Bolshevik
and anti Communists. But you know, someone like the country
(40:10):
like Italy did have a did have an ideology that
they were that they weren't hanging on to more so
than you know, I mean, I could say Romania, but
you know, on ten Escu pretty much pretty much. You know,
(40:31):
Kadrianu was out of the picture at that point. So
and that would have been the ideological the ideological center
for for Romania. But yeah, the country Italy being that
ideological is interesting when so many other countries and even
countries that weren't immediately threatened by the Soviet Union decided
that they were going to join in the fight just
(40:53):
to crush crush the Bolshevism.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think the threat that they posed
was readily apparent to to quite a lot of people,
and especially after Spain, I think there's probably their greatest
foreign policy blunder by the Soviet Union getting involved in
this war in Spain and sponsoring these these Bolsheviks over
there who are just completely off the reservation. All of
(41:21):
Europe basically is looking at that and going, Okay, who's
going to be next?
Speaker 2 (41:29):
A huge motivator.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
For for a lot of people to get involved on
whatever side is the most opposed to whatever that is, and.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
That is one of the main reasons why the Spanish
narrative needed after the war. Yeah, people that that old
tired saying that the victor is right write the history books. Well,
in this case, it almost seems like they had to
make sure that the the quote unquote Republican side wrote
(42:05):
the book wrote the history books on this so that
to whitewash the Soviet you know, the Soviet Union. It
is until guys like Pain come along and start writing
that you actually get a clear, a clear vision of
what happened there.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Although as I'm saying this, I think this is one
thing that makes the the Italian ideological development sort of
different from a lot of these other European fascist movements,
because the Italian fascists had sort of begun begun this
development prior to when the Soviet Union really appeared as
(42:48):
this great looming threat. If you're an Italian in let's
say the early twenties, liberalism and capitalism are are much
more hegemonic, and they appear to you as perhaps the
most relevant opponents to what you want to accomplish. And
(43:11):
there was even early on some mutual admiration between the
Italians and the Soviets. I think in as late as
thirty three, or perhaps it was a little earlier than
that had signed like a mutual friendship pact. Some of
the Soviet Black Sea Fleet had actually been built in
(43:34):
Italian shipyards. There was some cooperation the Italians saw in them,
at least an ally of convenience against the sort of
Western plutocracies, which is kind of interesting if you are
some of these later fascist movements that are appearing mostly
(43:55):
in response to Soviet aggression in Europe, to the common
turn communist international, some of the opposition to liberalism and
capitalism might be de emphasized or even forgotten entirely, which
I think is a mistake.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Well, I think we should probably wrap up there. Do
you have any other any thoughts, any closing comments on
this subject. I mean, it's like you said, it's one
of you know, we always talk about Germany and even
probably mostly in England, but a lot of what a
(44:34):
lot in America of what the Italian fascists were doing
seems to get left out of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, I would say, of course, this is a very
interesting book for a sort of wartime look into what
was going on in Italy with Mussolini as the resistance
as they were attempting to put up resistance to the.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Conquest by the Western allies.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
But I also I really recommend that people go and
look into early Italian fascism as well and where it
came from, how it developed through the twenties especially, is
very often left out. We have some books on this topic.
We would like to have more, but check those out
Gentile and Dunancio and Marinetti, but also check out books
(45:23):
from other sources if you're interested in understanding this ideological development.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
They did do it first.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
It's very critical to understanding everything that came afterwards.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
And it's just very much worth your time.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Kurt, I appreciate it. Thank you. Everybody. Go over to
go to Antelope Hill. I have a promo code there.
It's Pete Pete Q five percent off your order. I've
I'm redoing my library right now.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I just put in.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I just put it in built in bookshelves, and I'm
going through all of my books and reorganizing them. And
the amount of Antelope Hill books I am pulling out
is there are some there that I've read that I've
completely forgotten about. So I can't you know, I can't
recommend enough the work you guys are doing over there,
(46:23):
and you know, just continue to do it, and thank
you very much,
If you want to get the show early and ad free,
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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank
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Speaker 2 (01:44):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The pekan Yonashow dot com. Everything's there. I want to
welcome everyone back to the Peking Yona Show, Kurt from
Anelopill is back.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
How are you doing, Kirk, Hey, I'm doing well. Thanks
for having me back on.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Awesome. Awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
If Kurt from Anelope Pill is here, or anyone from
Aneloe Pill is on the show, we're probably going to
be talking about one of the amazing books that you
published that you translate very often, and you know, books
that people are forgotten about. So I asked you to
come on and talk about a book of Mussolini's speeches
(02:27):
that you that Anlo Pill put out called Rise and Fight,
And these are speeches from the period of from nineteen
forty three to nineteen forty five, So just jumping right in,
why speeches from this time for him?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, I think we figured we wanted to do something
with Mussolani. He's sort of underappreciated historically, often just sort
of becomes the butt of the joke about Italy's performance
in Second World War. But of course he did sort
of do it first, and the National Socialists in Germany
(03:09):
took a lot of cues from him, took a lot
of value from the things that he had done in
the example that he had set and in terms of
why specifically this period. We found this existing publication in
Italian and we just kind of liked the idea of it.
(03:29):
The period of the war that took place in Italy
is also quite often overlooked in favor of either the
Eastern Front or the sort of D Day and post
D Day fighting in Western Europe. But the fighting in
Italy was also really quite interesting and quite difficult for
(03:52):
all the parties involved, mostly himself. Of course, He's basically
betrayed by the Royalists, by army officers, and even by
members of his own Fascist party, and there was of
course the well known story of the daring mountaintop rescue
(04:13):
by German paratroopers and Otto Skorzeny and some members of
the SS.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
After that, Mussolini.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Is sort of whisked off to I believe to Vienna
first and then returns as the leader of a new
Italian government in the North under German backing the Italian
Social Republic. And long story short, the reason that this
(04:46):
period is interesting is because this is the first time
that Mussolini and the loyal Fascists really get to do
all the things that they wanted to do. They get
to set up the audiological apparatus of their new state
without the sort of dead weight of these conservative army
(05:06):
officers and the monarchy and all of these other sort
of relics of Italy's liberal unification.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, it seems he comes out of the comes out
of prison just ready to just raring to go. You
mentioned something about how basically he he becomes a punchline
a lot for a lot that happened. And you know
what I will always remember, and you know he should
(05:38):
be remembered for, is that he I mean, he was
one of the reasons why the Nationalists won in Spain. Yeah,
he sent people to fight, he sent planes, he did,
he did what he could and that can't go that
can't go unnoticed in you know, the fight against Bolshevism
(05:59):
on the continent.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Absolutely. Yeah, And that's another thing it's often forgotten. Everyone remembers,
you know, the Condor Legion, the German forces that were
sent over and uh, the German Air Force was involved,
and obviously it was a sort of a testing ground
for the Panzer forces. But Italy, if I'm if I'm
(06:21):
not mistaken, contributed the lion's share of the the manpower
in terms of foreign volunteers. Far more than the Germans did,
and I believe they were the first to do so
as well.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, yes, yes, And it was his planes that were
brought the Army of Africa over from from Morocco. You yeah,
a very important role in keeping the Southern Peninsula Bolshevik free.
If they if if the Nationalist would have lost that war,
(07:00):
or there's no telling what would have happened if Stalin
would have gotten his invasion prior to Barbarossa, which you know,
if if you read Hoffman and you read sub Off,
you know that that's what he was planning. So let's
jump to this. He he's definitely comes out and reaffirms
(07:28):
his his commitment to the Tripartheide Pact, and so much
so he talks about he does a radio message talking
about Japan's entry of the war this December nineteen forty three.
So I think in a time when a lot of
people think that Italy and that Mussolini had they were
(07:53):
told and court history tells us that he had basically
given up, he came out a defeated man. No, that's
not that's not nearly true. He came out ready to
ready to double down in the commitment that he.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Made absolutely, and obviously there are a lot of problems
that they had to work through in terms of trying
to stand up some sort of Italian army to fight
alongside the Germans in the wake of the surrendered by
the Royalist government. But they did manage to raise a
(08:31):
few solid divisions of troops and committed to the fighting
in at least an appreciable way. There are some some
famous units, the San Marco Marines, for example, are mentioned
in here, the Decima m A s. They're the sort
(08:52):
of famous naval commandos. So they did continue fighting under
Mussolini's leadership in with the Northern government that he set
up in Milan.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And he really stretches revolutionary optimism and vitality in the
social republic. You many would think that by this point
his his commitment to fascism as a vital and dynamic
force would would start to wane, But no, he's he's
(09:28):
telling people to double down. He calls on all Italians
to persevere in the face of adversity and encourages unwavering
loyalty to the axis cause.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Absolutely, and there's there are a lot of cases of
really determined resistance even by everyday civilians. Especially in some
of these northern cities, I believe. At one point in
one of these addresses, he he notes that when the
Allies advanced into Florence, he credits the civilian population with
(10:04):
a lot of feats of resistance, including just sniper fire
in the cities, just notes that the Allies are not
in fact being received as liberators, as is the sort
of common court history narrative, but that many Italians were
not ready to simply roll over as the as the
king and his government had.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, and the the commitment to keep troops training, even training,
you know, especially training with with the Germans as as
elite defenders of the fascist cause. You know, he holds
he once again is just holding on to the ideology
that you know, it's going to be steadfast, and he
(10:51):
I mean, I guess the question is, is you know
by forty four when you read German accounts it's.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Victory.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Is you have different factions who were questioning victory. And
it seems like Mussolini didn't. He wasn't at least convinced
that they were they were going to lose, especially after
the occupation, the German occupation of Rome, as as liberators
(11:25):
from the allies.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
The situation on the ground certainly wasn't looking good for
them at this point, and in forty three, I think
it's it's not irrational to think that there was a
way that they could win or at least not lose,
fighting fighting a defensive war. By forty four, it's pretty
(11:50):
clearly hopeless, especially by late forty four, in a wake
of some pretty heavy well, of course, the D Day
landings and the destruction of a large amount of German
forces in the Filet's pocket and then in the East
with the Soviet advance and in Operation Bagrassian basically wiping
(12:11):
out an entire German army group. It's it's pretty desperate,
And of course it's hard to know exactly Mussolini's private
thoughts on the matter, but I think that he felt
that they had to fight for their cause, even if
just for for history, for posterity, even if the military
(12:36):
situation itself was hopeless. They couldn't or or he couldn't
accept the shame of surrendering before it was well and
truly over.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
When there is the new radicalism that's like suggested by
these speeches, Even when he he knows it's over. I mean,
he's he's still going on and preaching against the annihilation
of the parasitic plutocracy, the struggle against you, sirious capitalism
(13:13):
in favor of a rising labor state. Yeah, I mean,
I guess the question is is what you mentioned, is
is this just a propaganda to keep people energized, or
I mean, is he bringing these things up at the
time just that's just what it seems to be. It
(13:34):
seems to be the rallying cry that's existed all along,
and just to keep people fighting to, you know, to.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
In some hope.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Well, I've always felt that if they accomplished anything by
by their resistance sort of to the bitter end, both
in Italy and in Germany and a number of other
European states that remained with the access to the end,
it's that we're still talking about them, and and we
(14:08):
still find these causes inspirational, in large part precisely because
of how far these men were willing to go uh
in in their their resistance, in their their commitment to
those ideals.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I do.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think that's an important part of of Well.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think it must have weighed on his mind. Right.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
He might not say as much publicly in these speeches,
but I think it must have.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, you know, the.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
You know, it's come it's come out in in subsequent years,
that the in late years that you know, one of
the reasons why the Germans fought to the to the
last at Berlin was a gay of a chance for
any German citizens who wanted to get west and get
away from the get away from the Bolshevik army that
(15:09):
they could. That doesn't seem to it doesn't seem to
be the same as far as you know, what was
you know, what was eventually going to happen in Italy.
I would have to assume by this point Mussolini had
understood that understood what his fate was.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It almost makes it more impressive that there was as
much resistance in Italy because the Italians were not being
threatened with the same sort of destruction of their people
that the Germans were being threatened with. And of course
not only from the Soviets, but there was also and
I forget exactly when when it came out in the
(15:51):
German press, but they had gotten wind of the Morgenthile plan.
It was a big reason for resistance and the Goebbel's
propaganda ministry made a huge deal out of that, but
that was only pointed at Germany and not in Italy.
And yet the Italians continue to resist all the same,
(16:14):
and I think in large part because of Mussolini's example,
his commitment to the cause, refusal to sort of acknowledge
the possibility of defeat.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
What do you think the last thing legacy is of this?
I mean you've already mentioned that so much for this rhetoric,
and I don't say that, I don't call it rhetoric punitively.
It's important that every once in a while, somebody on
(16:47):
social media will post up a picture of you know,
Mussolini hung upside down, and it'll be like somebody who
thinks they're a right winger, and I'll be like, you
know that people who did that, or just the forebearers
of the people who are transing kids now, right, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Mean they would do the same thing to you, right.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, Well, I mean they just I think that's the
problem is is that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And I also think that like fascism in Italy is
maybe not as something that like the average American can
look at and see as clearly as something to be
like Hey, that is something that I might be interested
(17:41):
in as the person who looks at national socialism and
is like, well, I mean that seems to be more
European more where we come from. It may not be
the Anglo Saxon tradition that we're taught, but I mean
I can look at it and I can be like, oh, well,
you know, I can see exactly what they what they
were doing there where. Italy also seems to be a
(18:04):
little more I mean, what's a word exotic or even.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
A little bit backwards, even perhaps Median, Yeah, a little
too Mediterranean, maybe a little too a little too uh
there's a word ethnic? Yeah, yeah, I think it's I
think you're right. I think it's a lot easier for
people to see to see themselves in in the the
uniquely German manifestation it is. It's just a little bit
(18:34):
closer to the sort of Northern European uh ethos and esthetic.
But I also think in large part is because people
don't really know that much about Italian fascism or or mussolane,
which is of course something that we're trying to remedy here.
But you know, you turn on the history channel, how
much are you going to see about Moussolny that isn't
(18:57):
isn't sort of, like I said, making him the butt
of the joke about Italian incompetence in the war, or
or portraying him as as sort of Hitler's hanger on
his sidekick, right that it's often how he sort of
thought of is Hitler's sidekick. But people really underestimate the
(19:21):
contributions that the Italian fascists made. We've also we've published
some other stuff from what was sort of a precursor
movement to fascism, the whole futurist sphere, Filippo Marinetti and
oh goodness, what's his name, the guy who took over Fiame,
(19:47):
Gabriel de Nuncio.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
That's it. Geez.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, we've actually done one of the guys that's been
on to talk about doing an episode.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, and all of this stuff is it's really a
lot more interesting and a lot more meaningful than people
give it credit for.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Now, I'll say, I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I do think that there are some people out there
in the right wing sphere who make too much of
the difference between fascism and national socialism as if they
are sort of inimical in some way, or that they
have a fundamental ideological disagreement. I don't think so. I
think that they are part of the same movement, part
(20:33):
of the same fundamental alignment in like ninety eight percent
of ways. And you can see definitely even in Moslny's
rhetoric in this book. By the forties, Italian fascism, and
especially the fascism that takes place in the Social Republic
(20:54):
is much more influenced by national socialism in some of
ideological prescriptions. But far from being a deviation from earlier fascism,
I think it's the natural evolution of it. It is
actually a more pure form of what Mussolny and the
fascists in Italy set out to do.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
In the first place.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
The word stymied in a lot of respect by the
need to accommodate the old guard, the monarchists, the conservatives,
who had somewhat made their peace with the fascist movement
but remained a political power block within Italy that had
to be had to be reckoned with. Of course, Hitler
(21:40):
in thirty three takes sort of the opposite tack. When
he gets brought into the coalition with the other conservative parties.
He just seizes power. He excludes them. He says, thanks
for inviting me. Now all of you get out were
running things here, which is probably what the Italian fascists
(22:05):
should have done in the first place.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, it's interesting. I've told many people have that I've
talked to that have read Marx and understand Marx. I
think most people who read Marks don't understand Marx. I
think even people who call themselves Marxists or communists don't
understand Marx. I hate to say, but you know people
who are like, Okay, I read this and it makes sense.
(22:30):
The criticisms makes sense, but obviously the prescription is uh,
you know, it is insane, it's anti human. And I've
told many people I said, well, after you read Marx,
read the Manifesto of the Fastiss Fascist Intellectuals by Benja
and Teely, and tell me what you think. And you know,
(22:51):
when it comes to Italian fascism, I would say, is
once you read that, you're like, okay, this this seems
to fill in in the spaces where Marx, you know,
obviously went insane, and you know the insane parts of
Marx and the anti human parts of Marx, and it
seems like Italian fascism does was the first and did
(23:14):
a very very good job of answering those questions and saying, look,
this is the way, this is the way you answer that.
Of course, it's Italian, and it's ethnic, and it is
an you know, it's it's an ethnic group that can
actually come together and much better than a multicultural you know,
(23:38):
shit storm like we have now.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, absolutely, the the whole modern Marxist constellation in the
West just remains perpetually ignorant of how fascism actually sought
to contend with liberalism, right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
They they have.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
This this idea that they'll they'll quote endlessly about fascism
being like the rear guard of capitalism, like whenever capitalism
is threatened, it pulls out fascism to go beat up
communists in the streets or whatever to protect capitalism, which is,
(24:26):
as you and I know, is entirely the opposite of
the truth. Fascism from the beginning, Like yes, like if
you read Gentila and a lot of these other intellectuals
is just as inimically opposed to liberalism as it is
to Bolshevism.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Right, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
When you when you look at Italian fascism, it's not
saying that the it's not reducing the human, you know,
the man down to a unit of labor, you know,
which is what Marks you know, clearly, clearly, clearly is doing.
And it's very anti human and it's if you really understand,
(25:14):
like dialectical materialism, it is probably probably the most anti
human concept in the history of mankind because it just
strips man of of history. It strips man of who
he is, a strips man of his uh, his heritage,
where he comes from, who his people are, and it
(25:37):
tears you know, it tears him from the land. It
doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what land is, it doesn't
matter who you are. Basically, it just takes blood and
soil right out of the picture, right right out of
the picture, and says, you know what, what somebody can
do with their hands is the most important thing. And
once somebody can't do anything with their hands anymore, they're
(26:00):
life is basically useless. It's another example of people accusing,
accusing fascists of actually what actual Marxists belief.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Well.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Additionally, a lot of the especially present day Marxists again
sort of so called because we know most of these
people don't read or don't understand Marx even they confuse
or they have this idea that there's a sort of
(26:37):
capitalist culture that has to be attacked to break down
the sort of superstructure of capitalism. And they identify all
sorts of things as being like culturally capitalist, like family structures, right,
(26:57):
is one of the things that they started with, uh
very early on, like wanting children to be to be
raised communally and uh, you know, of course in the
in the Soviet Union, early on they had no fault
divorce before like anyone else, uh resulted in the total
collapse of family structure in the Soviet Union in the
(27:21):
early years before they kind of uh realed that back
in a little bit, which is just insanity. I mean,
the identify they identify basically any aspect of what you
what you might call traditional culture as being sort of
supportive of capitalism or or liberalism. I think that's one
(27:45):
of the things that that really turned people away from
from the left and towards these new fascist movements. Is
regardless of what these communist movements said about capitalism and
liberalism that that might have been largely correct in many cases,
I'll agree with them. Their whole manner of operation, the
(28:10):
way that they constantly attacked any manifestation of of like
a traditional culture, cause people to see them as little
more than barbaric despoilers, not without good reason. That's where
the fascists come in and have their own opposition to liberalism,
(28:31):
to capitalism, but make their attack on it in a
way that isn't just catching normal people in the crossfire, right,
that they actually give people.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Purpose and identity in their.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
In their people and where they come from, in their
in the social relations that they are traditionally accustomed to,
and that is a much better path forward. That's one
of the reasons that the the fascists basically across Europe
ended up being victorious against communism domestically.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Well, I mean, when you have when you have a
group of people basically pushing the ideology and running running
the country who don't have a you know, don't have
ties to it, then it's all ideology. There's there's nothing
(29:33):
grounding the ideology. It's just an ideology up in the air,
and it's just basically it's like liberalism. Liberalism doesn't have
an ideology, there's no it can't. Liberalism could have an ideology,
but it's not tied to anything it's not moored to anything.
And you know, it's yeah, I mean it's no, it's
(29:58):
no wonder at the that it got so out of
it got as out of hand in Russia as it did,
especially in the especially in the twenties. And I'm not
even talking about the Stalin's purges and everything. Those are
most people don't even really understand what was happening there.
(30:19):
But the when you have a group of people who
are in charge, who go from place, who are basically
gypsies going from place to place. Yeah, of course, the
they're not going any time they try to do something
in a country that does have uh, you know, blood
(30:42):
and soil nationalism or just that kind of history. It's
going it's you're going to come up against people who
are even if your ideology is completely anti human and slaughterists,
you're going to come up against people who are going
to be willing to fight to the death for what
they know and what they believe and what their ancestors
(31:04):
have handed down to them.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
And in the early ussr of course, they even they
had this campaign against what they called Great Russian chauvinism.
Great Russian meant like basically the people of today's Russia
as opposed to like Belarus or Ukraine. The Ukrainians were
(31:29):
also known as little Russians or like people from people
from lesser Russia, not in the sense of being like
bad or worse than the rest of Russia, but like
as this sort of more more minor part of it,
(31:50):
the part that was added to it later. And so
they basically they attacked this idea of Russian identity as
paramount in the Soviet state, which is of course bound
to fail because Russians were the overwhelming majority in their
new state. Those would of course get rolled back under Stalin,
(32:11):
and especially during the Second World War, they do a
full one eighty and they start appealing to things that
actually motivate people. They're appealing to the legacy of like
Ivan the Great and you know, the resistance against the
Teutonic Order and all of this kind of historical.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Identity to motivate people.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
And of course, you know, they bring back the Church,
they bring back all these other parts of traditional Russian identity.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
In many ways, you.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Can say with a good deal of truth that Stalin's
regime pivoted towards a sort of red fascism in a
lot of ways, But I think I want to return
to this point about liberal as and how inimical the
fascist or national socialist worldview is to it. Now, when
(33:07):
you look at these these addresses by Mussolini, he barely
talks about the Communists. Now, of course, it's true that
the Communists are not on Italian soil at this point.
It is the Western allies, and so naturally most of
his ire would be directed against them. But you have
(33:29):
to ask yourself, if you're one of these people who
thinks that fascism is sort of a rear guard for capitalism, why.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Didn't they just give up?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Why didn't they just allow themselves to be taken over
by by the West. Why was there so much resistance if,
after all they were ideologically aligned, And yet resistance only
increased after the invasion. Resistance only got stronger and stronger,
and they kept fighting in the Italian Front, turned into
(34:01):
this bloody quagmire for the Western allies. I think, to
to any thinking person, this has got to make you
ask some questions.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Well, let me ask you this. I think this probably
seems pretty obvious, but it seems like Italian fascism because
of everything that was, all of the you know, sort
of manifestos that were written. It seemed to be more
fleshed out and more i would say systematic than German
(34:36):
Nasteramal socialism, British British fascism, French fascism. It really seems
like they like they knew what they wanted and where
this was going, and better than better than the other countries.
Not not throwing shade on any of the other countries, obviously,
(35:00):
I have you know, I have sympathies to all of them,
but it definitely seems like the Italians figure this out
early and were and had that at least that advantage
over the other countries.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, I think you'd be right to say that it
was more sort of formally ideological in nature. National socialism
is made up of sort of a collection of somewhat
disparate tendencies, the Volkish movement and of course the sort
(35:37):
of reactionary element of just wanting to fight the Bolsheviks,
along with all these sort of contingent geopolitical realities that
Germany was faced with. Italy being in a different position
after the First World War, being at least on paper,
(35:57):
a victorious power, it is a little bit different. They
had a little bit more time to develop all the
stuff systematically, and I think in a way that also
made it a little bit more exportable.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, and you know, let us not forget that they
they weren't always friendly with Germany. They uh, Southern Germany
suffered suffered at the hands of Italy after the war.
There was definitely some incursions there that caused problems. So yeah,
they is as nationalists, as nationalistic as they they were
(36:41):
trying to be, there was still they were still crossing
the border and causing some problems for the for the
Southern German people for sure, and Austrians too.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh yeah, I mean up until what thirty six, there
were some some very serious disagreements between the and in
Italian governments. The the Italians had signed uh what's what's
known as the stress of Front, which is an agreement
between Italy, France and Britain.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
So yeah, in.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
This this sort of alignment between Italy, France, and Britain,
who were of course the the victorious powers in the
First World War, wasn't really broken until Mosslny's whole Ethiopian adventure,
which which put a lot of friction between Italy and
the other Western powers.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Funny enough.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
The Germans actually are supplying weapons to the Ethiopians during
this conflict, hoping to put pressure on on Italy, which
is the major roadblock to their desired annexation of Austria anyway.
So it's it's not until after this that the Italians
actually realign uh with with Germany and breakaway from the West.
(38:00):
There had been a lot of rivalry or between France
and Italy during the inter war period, but this is
the first time that there's a real rupture between them,
and it's also very similar in a lot of ways
to the German rivalry with Japan in the interwar period.
It's worth remembering also Japan was on the opposite side
(38:23):
to Germany in the First World War, seized a lot
of their Pacific colonies which Germany never recovered. And during
the inter war period, the Germans are actually supplying the
Chinese with weapons and even with training the Komantang, the
Chinese nationalists, their best divisions were actually trained by German officers.
(38:48):
Chinese troops are equipped mostly with Mauser rifles, and if
you look at any period depiction of nationalists Chinese troops,
they are wearing German style helmets but with this whole
realignment in in the thirties.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Uh, these old.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Enemies realign on ideological rather than purely geopolitical lines, and
that's that's sort of what turns the Second World War
into fundamentally an ideological conflict, which was probably inevitable, but
it's interesting to see how long it took for that
realignment to take place.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
It's interesting with the with the ideology. When you understand
the ideological angle. Obviously, countries like Romania and border countries,
countries that are immediately threatened by the Soviet Union, you
would understand why they they would side with Germany, with
the Allies with the not with the Allies with the
(39:49):
Axis and and fight and yeah. But a lot of
those were just basically anti Bolshevik. A lot of the
volunteers that came in to Germany were basically anti Bolshevik
and anti Communists. But you know, someone like the country
(40:10):
like Italy did have a did have an ideology that
they were that they weren't hanging on to more so
than you know, I mean, I could say Romania, but
you know, on ten Escu pretty much pretty much. You know,
(40:31):
Kadrianu was out of the picture at that point. So
and that would have been the ideological the ideological center
for for Romania. But yeah, the country Italy being that
ideological is interesting when so many other countries and even
countries that weren't immediately threatened by the Soviet Union decided
that they were going to join in the fight just
(40:53):
to crush crush the Bolshevism.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think the threat that they posed
was readily apparent to to quite a lot of people,
and especially after Spain, I think there's probably their greatest
foreign policy blunder by the Soviet Union getting involved in
this war in Spain and sponsoring these these Bolsheviks over
there who are just completely off the reservation. All of
(41:21):
Europe basically is looking at that and going, Okay, who's
going to be next?
Speaker 2 (41:29):
A huge motivator.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
For for a lot of people to get involved on
whatever side is the most opposed to whatever that is, and.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
That is one of the main reasons why the Spanish
narrative needed after the war. Yeah, people that that old
tired saying that the victor is right write the history books. Well,
in this case, it almost seems like they had to
make sure that the the quote unquote Republican side wrote
(42:05):
the book wrote the history books on this so that
to whitewash the Soviet you know, the Soviet Union. It
is until guys like Pain come along and start writing
that you actually get a clear, a clear vision of
what happened there.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Although as I'm saying this, I think this is one
thing that makes the the Italian ideological development sort of
different from a lot of these other European fascist movements,
because the Italian fascists had sort of begun begun this
development prior to when the Soviet Union really appeared as
(42:48):
this great looming threat. If you're an Italian in let's
say the early twenties, liberalism and capitalism are are much
more hegemonic, and they appear to you as perhaps the
most relevant opponents to what you want to accomplish. And
(43:11):
there was even early on some mutual admiration between the
Italians and the Soviets. I think in as late as
thirty three, or perhaps it was a little earlier than
that had signed like a mutual friendship pact. Some of
the Soviet Black Sea Fleet had actually been built in
(43:34):
Italian shipyards. There was some cooperation the Italians saw in them,
at least an ally of convenience against the sort of
Western plutocracies, which is kind of interesting if you are
some of these later fascist movements that are appearing mostly
(43:55):
in response to Soviet aggression in Europe, to the common
turn communist international, some of the opposition to liberalism and
capitalism might be de emphasized or even forgotten entirely, which
I think is a mistake.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Well, I think we should probably wrap up there. Do
you have any other any thoughts, any closing comments on
this subject. I mean, it's like you said, it's one
of you know, we always talk about Germany and even
probably mostly in England, but a lot of what a
(44:34):
lot in America of what the Italian fascists were doing
seems to get left out of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, I would say, of course, this is a very
interesting book for a sort of wartime look into what
was going on in Italy with Mussolini as the resistance
as they were attempting to put up resistance to the.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Conquest by the Western allies.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
But I also I really recommend that people go and
look into early Italian fascism as well and where it
came from, how it developed through the twenties especially, is
very often left out. We have some books on this topic.
We would like to have more, but check those out
Gentile and Dunancio and Marinetti, but also check out books
(45:23):
from other sources if you're interested in understanding this ideological development.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
They did do it first.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
It's very critical to understanding everything that came afterwards.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
And it's just very much worth your time.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Kurt, I appreciate it. Thank you. Everybody. Go over to
go to Antelope Hill. I have a promo code there.
It's Pete Pete Q five percent off your order. I've
I'm redoing my library right now.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I just put in.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I just put it in built in bookshelves, and I'm
going through all of my books and reorganizing them. And
the amount of Antelope Hill books I am pulling out
is there are some there that I've read that I've
completely forgotten about. So I can't you know, I can't
recommend enough the work you guys are doing over there,
(46:23):
and you know, just continue to do it, and thank
you very much,
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