Beyond The Bench (Part 2) : Physiotherapists' Career Shifts - YouMatter Session 44

With Jon Head, Helen Underwood & Martin Christensen

2 more tales from clinicians, Jon and Helen who have made the move into a different, but related careers. And a real-time account from Martin Christensen who only stopped working as a physio 2 weeks ago. He's not sure yet, if he's jumped from the frying pan, into the fire!

Mehab.co.uk

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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(00:24):
Hello and welcome to You Matter.Hello and welcome to this next
episode in a two-part series that I've been doing talking to
clinicians who've moved out of their clinical role into
something different. So I've got three more
conversations for you on this episode.
The 1st is with Jonathan Head, who some of you may know as the

(00:47):
man who talks to you about Nucor.
John was a physiotherapist in the MOD and these days he works,
he's the practitioner facing side of Newcal.
I'll let you tell him, let him tell you more about it in the
interview, but that's his transition.
Then I speak to Helen Underwood who has a really interesting

(01:10):
history just in her physiotherapy world.
Actually a bit of a sort of in, out in story and lots of
different physio roles in the acute sector, which has probably
influenced where she is now. She's now, she now runs her own
first aid training company. And the final conversation takes
a slightly different tack. Talking to Martin Christensen

(01:32):
pretty much in the middle of hismove out of physiotherapy, He
left physio or did his last physio shift literally the week
before last and has moved into arole that sees him working in
essentially a trauma centre for troubled youths.
So a very different scenario andthat conversation gave me an

(01:54):
opportunity to talk to Martin about what it's like being in
the moment and actually the the raw thoughts around leaving his
physiotherapy clinic and for themoment physiotherapy.
So I hope you'll find these conversations interesting.
I certainly enjoyed conducting them.
Let me know what you think if any of you are in the process of

(02:18):
constructing a move out of your clinical role or you have moved
into something else that you'd like to let me know about.
Or if you'd like to talk to any of the people that I've
interviewed about the the role they've moved into specifically
or just the process of moving, then do get in touch.
In the meantime, enjoy the episode.

(02:38):
I'm really pleased to welcome mynext transitioner from physio to
something else. And this morning I'm talking to
Jonathan Head. So Jonathan was for about 10
years an exercise rehabber for the MOD and the shift that he
made and to where he is now is into a job called Customer
Success Officer. That's his job title for Nucl, a

(03:02):
brand that many of you will knowvery well and I'm sure a lot of
you are using Nucl's system. So welcome John, thanks ever so
much for agreeing to have this next conversation about moving
out of, sorry, I said moving outof physio, not moving out of
physio, in your case, moving outof being an exercise rehabber.
But thank you for coming and having the conversation.
No, no, thanks for having me, Joe.

(03:22):
It's a bit of an honour to be onyour podcast in the first place.
Thank you. So John, can you give us a
little bit of background as to the build up to trying to
deciding to make the change and maybe a little bit about the the
moment when you decided to finally jump?
Yeah, so interesting. I I felt I was probably going to

(03:43):
be in the same job role for lifeessentially.
I enjoyed it, love the MOD setting.
I think it's kind of really establishes you as a, as a
person really because there's lots of leaders around you and
it's flexible in terms of, you know, lots of different injury
types, it's occupationally LED, etcetera, etcetera.

(04:04):
So I really enjoyed the job roleand I was there for a long time.
So there was an element where I,you know, you just kind of get
into something and you know it like the back of your hat.
So I've become part of the furniture for quite a while in
my role. And then I basically basically
my story was that I struggled with anxiety back, back end of

(04:26):
COVID. Realistically, it started to
rear its head and that took me on a fairly, you know, long
journey of trying to deal with what is anxiety and anxiety's
best friend, which is depression.
So I kind of went down that roadof, of using those two together
as a catalyst for change. I didn't know that at the time.

(04:46):
It was very much I had to go anddeal with some of those parts
and once I'd dealt or deal with whatever way we want to kind of
conceive it, I came out of it being a different person.
And that was really what drove me to change.
It's, it's not like I didn't love being the clinician.
I did, but I also then felt likeI needed to do something

(05:07):
different to challenge me because I was very comfortable.
And comfortable isn't necessarily a good place to be
because you end up doing the same things or, you know, just
going through the through the motions really.
So that was the driver for change.
And it was really when I came out of having done some therapy
myself, which was a very uncomfortable place for a

(05:29):
therapist, I have to say. Like, I like being on the other
chair. It's nice when someone's coming
to you with their problems, but when you're going to someone
else, it's like, wow, this is the worst thing ever.
But actually, once I got over that initial and and moved
through it, it helped me then realize that maybe I'm not quite
happy with what I was doing anymore and I hadn't even been

(05:51):
aware. I think that was the greatest
thing. It was awareness was just not
there. So anyway, Long story short is I
kind of went through my therapy side and then kind of came out
and I had no idea what else I could do.
Being completely frank. And I think a lot of therapists
feel the same that you kind of all right, I've got the skill
set, which is great clinically, but what on earth can I do with

(06:13):
that? Because it doesn't always
transfer into or you don't thinkit transfers into any other job
roles. But the confidence that I gained
from having gone through this process was that I had belief in
myself again. And so I was like, well, you
know what, I became a therapist with no skill set in terms of,
you know, you go and do your university degree come out of

(06:33):
that you, you, you know, you do your first year where you feel
like you have that imposter syndrome anyway.
And then you slowly build up that actually, I can do this and
I'm not too bad at what I do scenario.
So I was like, well, I can use that, that experience before and
I can take that into something new.
I'm sure feel that it gets slightly harder as we get older.
And I don't know if that's more just as a mindset shift that we

(06:56):
always think of age as a reason maybe not to do things.
But actually, I use that as a catalyst.
I can't let that fault and perception thrive into anything
else I want to do with my life. Otherwise we'd never do
anything, right? Because of like, well, I'm a bit
older now, so why would I bother?
So, yeah, I, I basically, I started just looking at what I
was good at, which was emotionalintelligence was something that

(07:19):
I feel we gain as therapist profession really well.
We really understand that personin front of us.
So I was like, OK, I'm pretty pretty sure I've got that skill
set, rapport building and a loose, not passion.
Passion is maybe not a strong word, but a use.
I want to make things better. So for me, why Newcles stood out

(07:43):
for me in terms of as a collision was actually, this is
not bad for what we're trying toreally do, which is make the
therapist life easier at times and also make the client's life
easier at time. I got involved in a few projects
to the MOD from the software side, not leading it or anything
like that, but it just gave me an insight that OK, there is

(08:03):
another world out there away from the therapy side that's
important. So this then led to me seeing
the job role that I'm in now being advertised and I looked at
the the job description and thenrealise that my skill set did
not really lead to it. So I was like, right, bugger,
how on earth can I get, you know, into that role?

(08:25):
And I, I, I literally just sent an e-mail basically explaining
that I do not fit the role whatsoever.
But I'm willing to give it a very good go if you're willing
to take a risk of just interviewing me from that point.
So I think that's how I got the interview.
It helped. One of the key aspects was it
had to come from a clinical side, whether practice manager

(08:48):
or being a clinician yourself. So that that was a tick in the
box from that scenario. But actually I didn't have a
software background around, you know, I, I could handle using
Zoom calls and stuff like that. What, what sort of thing?
But actually when it came to therest of it, I didn't really
necessarily fit. But there's that aspect that

(09:08):
actually we are transferable with everything we have done.
So I leveraged that basically I,I kind of took that as that's a
key selling point of me is that being a clinician, it exposes
you to so many different things and it, you know, not just
software world, it can transfer to any business realistically,
now that I look at the back end and again, at the time when I

(09:30):
was like, what on earth am I going to do with my life now?
I don't know what to do. You get stuck in that mode of
saying, well, we're going to have to do this forever.
And that was kind of my real big, you know, light bulb moment
as I was like, no, actually being a therapist is a great
tool. Doesn't mean you have to do it
forever. And there's also comes to a
certain point where you might not enjoy it anymore.

(09:52):
I was in between. I was probably like going
through obviously the anxiety, depression side that was an
element of burnout, an element of PTSD, all kind of mixed into
a big pot together. So I can't say it was definitely
this what what drove the change or not.
But for me it was once you realize that you can use the
skill set to do anything else aswell, it just really opens up a

(10:14):
massive world again. Whereas actually in the MOD it
was like, well, you can be stuckat this banding and that's your
ceiling because you can't, you can't be the manager because you
can't be a commanding officer unless you want to join the
service. So I was like, OK, I can't do
that. I went to private practice.
I would go back in, I'd work under someone scenario and then
potentially I'd go and make my own business.

(10:36):
But that's not what I wanted to do either.
So I was like, right, well, where do I go now?
So yeah, again, it was, it was awesome when I actually kind of
got the job offer because it wasthat feeling of like, OK,
everything that you've kind of been through, worked on and got
to all of a sudden you're seeingthat reward come forwards with a
job offer at the time. And again, if I, if anyone had

(10:59):
said, oh, why, why, why a customer success?
It's a glorified name of saying sales.
So I'm like, OK, it's, it's a sales role, but I don't see it
as a sales role. I see it as a, most of the time
in the UK or not even just outside of the UK, people do not
like using technology or software too much.
We're kind of a bit frightened by it.

(11:19):
So the same as that, you know, in practice, when someone comes
into you with their back pain orknee pain and they're like, I'm
not sure what I should be doing with this.
What's the best approach? It's the same for me that it's
the same process that all right,I just, I just jazz it up as
like my pain is my software. I don't know how to get it
better. And I'm like, OK, let me show
you how you could do this, this and this.

(11:40):
And we've kind of make a plan and approach and, and make sure
it fits the person at the end ofthe day, the same as going to
see a therapist. You know, I might go and Chuck
exercise prescription down someone's throat because of my
bias. But actually they might go and
need to say, I think you need togo and see someone with their
hands on treatment or, you know,go and speak to a counsellor or

(12:00):
something along those lines based on what that initial
appointment says and, and suggests.
So the skill set's exactly the same.
I just changed the names and andfaces essentially, which again,
I I found, I didn't really thinkit would link together, but it
does. So much of what we've learned
can transfer into the next stageof whatever your career goals

(12:22):
are or aspirations. So yeah, that's my my Long story
short, White white new call. Yeah.
And I can see that the moment happened essentially because you
got offered that job. And you know, after that build
up, I guess it was a no brainer.As you say, you'd, you'd done
the work, you'd had the therapy,you knew you needed to change
and you'd got the job that you had stretched yourself to go

(12:45):
for. I love the fact that you emailed
and said I don't fit the profile, but would you give me a
go anyway? And it sounds like just going
back to the anxiety and depression phase, I think what I
hear you're saying is it wasn't necessarily the job that was
causing that. There was probably a a number of
things. And I've seen some really honest

(13:06):
posts you put on LinkedIn about losing your dad and that, you
know, that they were contributing factors.
But I'm interested actually, because you and the only other
man that I've interviewed in this series so far, there've
been two men and and three women.
The other man was a physio and he actually is now a vicar.

(13:28):
But he had a similar story in that he'd had some problems
with, I think with anxiety and depression with Simon as well.
And yeah, he, I guess it was slightly different in that his
face, you know, he suddenly realised that that was a really,
really important thing. But what I hear with you is you,
you went through this process and then, you know, it almost

(13:50):
sounded when you were describingit, like you almost had to make
a change to honour where you'd got to in your therapy rather
than desperately wrong with the job that you were doing.
Yeah, no, I agree. I I don't think like all things
in life, you can, you can blame or not blame, but you can use

(14:10):
things as a reason for it. But ultimately for me, in my
mind now, I look back on reflectand most of the things that that
go in on our own minds are internally driven.
Like we use external processes to validate them to a certain
extent. But I don't think it's a job
that ever makes you unhappy. I think it's sometimes doing the
same things that can make you unhappy.

(14:31):
You know, like I, I just didn't want to have the same drive
anymore. And in terms of I had a long
commute. So I was like, I'd rather not do
that anymore and try something different.
But I think it was also for me, it was as a therapist, I always
felt that sometimes like you would take on people's problems
as well. You, you inherit them, don't
you? So for me, it was also how do I

(14:52):
reduce the amount of that that Isee, which was quite an
important. I never really thought about it
because again, before I went down the therapy line, it was
like, that was John. Yeah, John's fine.
No problems at all. Almost like a male, you know.
And again, I look back and, you know, where do you learn that
from you, you kind of male figures around you and from, you

(15:12):
know, my, my father, he's his father would have been, you
know, the warring generation. So actually we're, we're really
just starting to find that malesare just starting to open up
about things a lot more. And, and again, for me, that's
important to, to validate as well that actually I went for a
long time in my life never validating my feelings because
why would I bother? You know, I'm fine, I'm always

(15:34):
fine. And at which point when I
realized I wasn't fine and I didn't know how to cope with
that, it kind of then opened up this Pandora's box of like,
where do I want to go with this?Because I'd done, you know, the
initial part of, you know, dealing with your emotions, your
feelings when you go to see someone.
I was like, I think I can dig further and actually start to
get something out of me a bit more, which is where I went down

(15:57):
the career route because I couldhave left it.
I just, you know, I dealt with that and I'll carry on and I'll
go back to, you know, working inthe role I was and I would have
been content doing that. I'm sure.
Like again, I still felt like I had purpose, but I just felt
there was more to unlock. And for me, it's about
challenging myself all of a sudden, whereas before I was
quite happy not taking risks. So this job change essentially

(16:21):
was one of the first big risks that I took.
You know, it wasn't so much streamlined of saying that, you
know, you've got security, you know, that the perks of working
for the MOD is, you know, as a civil servant, you know, very
nice, yada yada. Get a good amount of holiday per
year. And then joining an organization
that's, you know, essentially, you know, multinational.

(16:42):
I don't know what the organization's like, I have no
idea. And in a sales role, what if I
don't hit a target or, you know,will I just be kicked out the
door? So I had all those things that
run through my mind, but actually, like most things in
life, you have to just give things a try because if you
don't, you'll ask questions or Ialways had a friend whose dad
told him that basically you haveto have a colouring book of your

(17:04):
life because you don't want to get to the end of it and then
have pages that are just unfilled.
So for me, it's just about colouring in my pages, going and
explore options and at the end of it you'll find what you're
may be looking for or maybe we never find what 100% we're
looking for. But if you don't try something,
you don't know. So yeah, that seems seems not

(17:25):
too dissimilar. I think when you've been on that
journey a bit like, you know, when you've seen those patients
that come in and you treat them and then they're like, I think I
wouldn't mind being a physio or exo.
And then they go off and they doit.
And it's because they were inspired by that, by that spark.
And for me, the spark was like, well, I use the darkness of it
to to basically build the light because again, it's not a very

(17:48):
nice place to be when you're kind of with the anxiety
depression scenario. But actually if you can
reharness that power, I mean, for me, it's like, I just don't
want to go back there. So I'm going to work as hard as
possible to to not be there. And again, it's a bit like our
chronic lower backs. It's like there's a chance it
could re trigger. But if you work hard at it and

(18:10):
you maintain, then there's a good chance that it won't re
trigger as well. So.
Yeah, and there's A and life to be lived possibly still with
pain. But yeah, as you say, there's
pages of the colouring book to to colour in.
And I loved what you highlightedabout the, the transferable
skill of being able to cope withlots of different things that

(18:32):
are thrown at you. And yeah, I've, I've come across
quite a few people who've gone into sales type roles.
And you're right, it would, you'd almost think it'd be the
absolute opposite thing that a therapist would want to go into.
You know, it's sort of in theorychallenges all our views about

(18:53):
being caring and altruistic, doesn't it?
But I mean, I can I can absolutely confirm for people
listening, having having experience working with you as a
inverted commas salesperson for Nicole, it definitely didn't
feel like a sales experience. It felt like you helping me see
the benefits of something which would do my business and you

(19:15):
know, a lot of good. And it was a very, I mean, sure,
you won't mind me saying, John, that there were two systems
weren't there that I was interviewing at the same time.
And I was able to be completely honest with you all the way
along about how what was influencing my decision making
and my final decision, you know,which was a hair's breadth in
the end. But I, you know, really enjoyed

(19:39):
the experience of going through that with you and never felt
under pressure in the way that you do when you're in this
really horrible salesy situationwith somebody.
So, you know, I think you are living out what you've said
about that, the transferable skill of being able to adapt,
which I think should really encourage people thinking about
making a shift, but also the really good use that you can put

(20:02):
your skills around emotional intelligence to in in so many
other roles. I think people are encouraging.
Yeah, I'd definitely say that emotional intelligence side just
comes into it again. I'm always a clinician first and
regardless that that you can't lose that period of your life
regardless. So I don't I don't feel like

(20:23):
that that escapes me. So whether it's, you know,
selling software or if I go on to do anything else, I think
there's always going to be that element that I want to continue
because it's, you know, there's was it the word authenticity
that kind of springs to mind. And ultimately, like, I don't
want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
You can read a room. And again, if someone's pushing

(20:44):
someone from the South side, let's say we bought a new car.
My wife did not too long ago. And the guy just made me feel a
bit uncomfortable because it wasvery much like you were trying
to sell that car. And I was like, you don't need
to like really, you make, we make our own decisions anyway
based on how that person or the product makes you feel.

(21:05):
So I think you're all you're doing is a catalyst for that.
And you, you can, you can do it in a nice approach as well.
And realistically, and most of the time I generally find with,
with software side, it's, it's just really showing people how
to use it. I, I feel like the, the skill
set comes at the end of the journey when someone has it,
It's more like this is how you're going to go and use it
moving forward. Because otherwise, you know,

(21:28):
it's like all things you can give someone a tool, but if they
don't know how to use it to its full efficiency, then it
becomes, you know, not not quiteas good at all as what they
first signed up for. So again, I have lots of, yeah,
again, you know, like we, oh, it's got this, this and this.
And actually by the time we end up using it, what, what can we
do on it? We can take a picture, we can
send a WhatsApp and maybe a few emails.
So again, we, we've got this fancy product, but not

(21:50):
necessarily the need or, or knowhow to harness it.
So yeah, again, a lot of those conversations come back and I
think that's that rapport building as well at the start is
that, you know, you're going to have I was always hopeful to get
I'll be transparent. I never got Joe over the the
game line to to join new chord. It was one of my biggest stars.
Like I would have really have liked to work with Joe and the

(22:11):
team and just because I got on well with them as well.
But I think the key bit is that I end up having, you know, six
months down the line, I'm still having conversations with people
just to harness. OK, like, have you used this
yet? OK, let's have another meet and
let's just make sure you've got this, this and this going on as
well. Never say never John I I still
don't 100% know if it was the right decision or not.

(22:31):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Well, it's, it's whether
you choose Batman or Superman, so that's fine.
Again, it's a good system. So I don't, I don't, yeah, I
don't, I don't, yeah. But yeah, again, I think for me
it's just using different skill sets and around and it, it
doesn't have to be sales roles. I, I like the sales role
actually as a clinician because we like data.
So again, if you like, you're saying, OK, well, I've got a

(22:52):
certain target to make, then OK,it's like, it's like repetitions
in a gym scenario. OK, fine, I can, I can do that.
Why not? I understand that.
Yeah. So, John, I've been asking
everybody if there's anything they missed from their previous
roles or anything you missed from either the MOD or being an
exercise rehabber in the MOD. Definitely MOD.

(23:14):
In general, is, is a very uniquelifestyle.
So I think the clinicians that Iworked with were all very,
what's the word? You could just get on with them.
So well, like, so our lunchtimeswe do often, you know, either
group exercise or we'd be playing sport or something.
So I miss my lunchtimes. That's that's probably my main

(23:35):
thing. I don't, I'll be honest, I
really don't miss the therapy side too much.
I still do a little bit anyway, just to keep my clinical head in
the game. But yeah, minimal amount
compared to, you know, full timegigs.
So I think for me it's that I don't miss the patient side and
their problems. But for me, I miss the
environment where you're workingtogether and I think that's the

(23:58):
big thing. Like Nuke was a remote role, so
I don't have that same team a feeling at times.
So you have to try and harness it as best you can.
Or again, what I've done is justgo and use outside environment
and and kind of make those relationships as well.
I. Was going to say, I think we're
the type of people that probablyneed that interaction so much
that we will find it somewhere in our lives, won't we?

(24:19):
Even if the job isn't providing it as easily as it as it used
to. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Well, John, thank you so much
for talking to me. I'm actually going to finish
with a, I had a little anecdote from my son who we recently
dropped off at uni. Just thinking about what you're
saying about conversations around mental health and, you

(24:40):
know, hopefully things are moving on for the next
generation. So we were, we were putting into
York last weekend. He's gone to York uni and we
were getting close to the city. And I said, oh, it's exciting.
Well, isn't it? You know, we're nearly there.
And he said it is exciting one, but it's also a bit nerve
wracking. And I said, yeah, I said, and
are you nervous? And he said, yeah, I, I'm a bit
nervous. I'm not a lot nervous though,

(25:02):
because if I was a lot nervous, I'd tell you I was fine.
And I said, oh, that's good to know.
That's, you know, the self-awareness and the blood and
they've definitely. Moved, I mean, again, I always
what I love about the kind of generation coming up is that
they're so much more open then yeah, I'm a bit of a closed book

(25:24):
in that kind of 80s babies, but they're kind of yeah, the next
Gen. they're so much more open. That's that's incredible.
Next time he tells me he's fine.Well, that's it.
Well, and again, a mother alwaysknows as well.
Yeah, there's no getting around that.
No, well, I'm really pleased to see you smiling with your new
cool banner there. And it's been such a a good

(25:45):
transition for you, John. And again, thank you so much for
talking to me. Thanks for having me, Joe.
Pleasure, take care. So for my next little session in
this series of interviews, I'm delighted to welcome ex
physiotherapist Helen Underwood.Hi, Helen.
Hi. Joe, thanks for having me on.
Board, thanks for agreeing to have the conversation.

(26:07):
So Helen has just told me a very, very interesting physio
history which I'm not going to attempt to list.
I'm going to get her to tell youabout that at the moment, but
the transition that Helen has made is from physiotherapy to
where she is now, which is her job title is expert trainer and
founder of under. Sorry, expert first aid trainer.

(26:27):
Sorry, Helen, you corrected me on that before.
Expert first aid trainer and founder of Underwood Training.
That's where she is now. So, Helen, do you mind giving us
that wonderful potted history ofyour path through and eventually
out of physiotherapy? Absolutely.
It was a very weird and wonderful route.
So I was actually a physio that works mostly in acute care.

(26:50):
I think a lot of public perception is that it's
outpatients and sports injuries.And I specialized in Pediatrics
quite early on doing junior rotations in Pediatrics at
Bristol Children's and then I worked at Birmingham Children's
with some some the rotations next level up senior 2.
And then I actually had a littlebit of AI suppose a little

(27:12):
wobble in terms of a mental health looking back, because I
had 15 children die in A10 week period with no support who had
been working with closely. So I actually ran away for six
months and worked to ski season as a cook.
And it was while I was doing that I managed to get a place on
a first aid course as part of the, the, the organization I was

(27:32):
going with because there was a space with the ski instructors
and I realised that I'd learnt anew headbandage.
But the rest of it I knew because it was all transferable
skills from my, my physio world.Following that I came back to to
the UK and I looked and in London for a while, mostly in a
mixture of adult respiratory andpaediatrics.

(27:53):
Then I moved up to Leeds where I'm based now and it works in a
mixture of pediatric locum followed by permanent senior one
position in respiratory I adult ICU with combined pediatric ICU
attached. That became stressful for other
reasons. Loads of on calls, a permanent

(28:15):
vacancy at the senior two grade below me, managing juniors to
get on the on call rota. But for very, very little time
were they confident with helipads for trauma, a regional
liver transplant unit. So I left there and actually
went to work at Beepa which was has now been taken over and it's

(28:36):
something else in our area at a private hospital which was
mostly adult based physio, post surgical, bit of cardiac rehab,
bit pulmonary rehab. And that had different stresses
because we were suddenly expected to do lots of audits
and things on top of the clinical caseload but no actual
time to do that. So I decided enough was enough.

(29:00):
I became asthmatic in my 20s through breathing and powdered
latex dust. Working on intensive care is the
thought of how that came about. Other allergies were developing
and I decided it was time to getout.
So I ran away to Scotland for a year where I booked myself on a
12 month long outdoor instructorprogram for outdoor pursuits.

(29:22):
Qualified to teach canoeing, kayaking, rock climbing,
archery, a few other random things.
Besides an amazing year. The only thing negative about it
was the midges because the Scottish midges think I'd taste
beautiful for some reason. Absolute blast.
Came back to Leeds and started doing a little bit of bank work

(29:43):
for physio, but they're mostly starting to build up the outdoor
pursuits instructor side of things.
Very difficult to do because it's bit work and you get paid
for the actual contact hours rather than the full days.
And then someone on the course in Scotland, one of the
assessors for a module and said Helen thought about first aid
training with your background. My thoughts just went back to

(30:06):
this course I'd done when I did this case and thought yeah, I
can do that. You know, I taught people lots
of different skills and lots of the lower grades for things for
on call routers, did lots of in surface training and things as a
physio. So I got myself on a first aid
trainer training course, didn't learn a lot of new things, but

(30:27):
learnt some of the ways that things had to be done for
certification routes and accreditations and things and it
kind of went from there and well.
What a what a what a journey. It was a very.
Round journey, there's been a few hiatuses in the way and I've
had to then gain teaching qualifications as as goal
posters moved and do other things to keep validated.

(30:49):
But it's, it's been a very interesting journey.
But I I hand on heart, I'm a better first aid trainer for
having been where I was in in the acute NHS.
Setting, yeah, I'm sure. I mean, you say it's random, but
actually as I'm listening, rightly or wrongly, I hear a
theme going through of the so the the acute sectors that you
worked in, but also even when you took your breaks, you know,

(31:13):
skiing, outdoor pursuits in Scotland.
Is there this sort of, oh, I don't know if the phrase is
right, but adrenaline, thrill seeking part of you.
Is that part of your make up? I don't think I'm massively
adrenaline seeking, but I think I'm, I'm a doer, I'm an active

(31:33):
person and I think very much a people person.
And so, you know, you've got somebody who's who's rock
climbing for the first time and they're really scared about the
heights, but looking at how you can coach them to actually move
past that fear and reach their goals and, and aspirations.
And some of the outdoor stuff, there's people on my courses
that did way more adrenaline stuff than me.

(31:56):
It's not that I was after the really big stuff, but I think
just being outdoors in the freshair and I think I'm a real
people person that loves communicating with others and I
guess both the outdoor coaching and also the first aid training,
that's an integral part of it. Yeah.
So do you, do you get to satisfyall of that in your current role
now? On the whole, because I do teach

(32:19):
outdoor first aid, outdoor instant management people doing
outdoor sports coaching because all sports coaches have to have
a valid first aid ticket or their coaching qualifications
not valid. So the two do marry really well.
And I've got a few canoe clubs locally who love using me
because I don't actually canoe or or kayak anymore at the
moment. Family things and, and things

(32:40):
have moved in different directions, but actually I've
got a real knowledge of the sport.
I've I've got that experience, that background.
I can make the scenarios in the training of the first stage
relevant if they're talking about something that happened.
I've got really a good understanding of the mechanisms
of that. Yeah, that's brilliant.
And the fact that you still get to be around those environments

(33:02):
and those people must be, must really reward that part of you.
Do you, if you take yourself back, Helen, to the moment where
you decided to leave that last Bupa job, did you know at that
point that that was you hanging up your physio boots?
And if so, did it? How did it feel?

(33:22):
I. Wasn't quite 100% sure that I
was definitely hanging up the boots as it were.
And I kind of hung on a little bit for probably about 6-8
months by staying on the bank there as I came back from
Scotland. That because I'd had this big
gap with the 12 months in Scotland, I was only ever the
second person on the bank shift for the weekend, which meant
that quite often I was just, it's a bit like being on call.

(33:44):
You've got 20 lbs for the privilege of just being there in
case needed and often not calledin.
So I quickly realized that AI wasn't getting enough hours to
keep my actual professional registration up.
And B, the professional registration was looming again
and it was an extra X 100 lbs todo that for, for the next year.
And I think that's the point when I made the actual decision
that actually I've got starting to get enough of a business

(34:08):
building up as a sole trader at that time that actually I could
just let it go. Yeah.
So you'd already, yeah, as you say, that year had kind of
cushioned it a little bit. And is there anything you really
miss about being physio or beingin those environments that you
worked in as a physio? I don't think massively because

(34:29):
I get so much patient or people contact rather than patient
contact and some really good colleagues.
I would say that in a way, sometimes I miss just having
regular colleagues at work because I've got a very small
team that I now work with and I was a sole trader for a while.
But actually this afternoon justbefore speaking to you, I've
just come from one of our local or I've just done the

(34:51):
resuscitation for the healthcareprofessionals there.
And because I've again got that clinical background, I
understand where people are coming from.
It's one of them regularly now doing is going into these two
local hospices. There's a number of dental
practices, a couple of GP practices locally and I'll go
and I'll do the resource training and they love, they can
just talk medical at me and I can make it very relevant to

(35:15):
their particular setting. And particularly with the
Hospice because I'm there usually every month, bar August,
holiday month for everybody. Actually, I'm regularly seeing
some colleagues and I get that fulfilled in that way and it's
really exciting for me to be able to to still share that
clinical knowledge. As well.

(35:37):
So I don't think there's anything that I'm really
missing. The thing I don't miss is the on
calls. Say that.
In the middle of the night, pouring rain, pitch black,
getting in because of poorly person.
So that's the thing I really don't miss.
But yeah, I think I'm a better first aid trainer for what I've

(35:59):
done. There's nothing I teach about on
any course that I haven't actually physically dealt with
at some point, right down to meningococcal septicemia, spinal
injuries, anything that we coverin a course.
I have actually dealt with patients that have those
conditions or injuries at some point, which I think is quite a
unique place to. Teach me actually yes and is

(36:21):
there anything so take you hear that those those sort of
clinical experiences are really helpful to draw on Is there
anything about you as a person or do you think physios in
general as people that that are you know really transferable as

(36:46):
as traits rather than skill sets.
Do you have you? Because you're a business owner
as well, aren't you? You're not.
It's not just delivering the first aid training, you've had
to set up and market and sustaina business.
And I mean, not to generalise, obviously No2 physios are the
same, but do you think there areany particularly useful traits

(37:07):
amongst the people that go into physio to be able to shift into
other careers? I think so.
Trying to think exactly how to put them into words, having on
the spot. I think we are very people,
people orientated. And as people orientated people,
I think we're really good at communication.
So I think communication skills,whether that be delivering a

(37:29):
training course or with customers, suppliers, I think
that's a real transferable skillthat that goes anywhere.
I think because of the caseloadsthat we used to manage, I think
we can be fairly organised. And that's certainly something
you need to be when you're running a business, although
sometimes you feel like you're chuckling 101 plates.

(37:49):
And I think that's probably the hardest thing of moving from
physio to being a business ownerwas all the other bits that go
with running a business that suddenly had to learn.
So you've got to do the accounting, the marketing these
days, the social media. As I've started to get a little
bit bigger, I've got a very small number of people that now
work with me, but managing staffand payrolls and other things

(38:12):
that go with it. So it's not just delivering the
training, it's all the other stuff that goes with it.
And I think the juggling of caseloads and responsibilities
and such like has probably helped with the jugglingness of
a number of those things as well.
Yeah, We tend to have quite havea go attitude, don't we, at
things we don't know, which is probably to our benefit and

(38:34):
detriment in that, you know, when you're running a business,
the number of things you potentially could have a go at
are, you know, infinite, aren't they?
I think sometimes guilty of taking too much on for sure.
So we need to learn our limits, but also, as you say, have a go.
I mean, I've been learning a very vertical learning curve
with technology. So I'm actually just embarking

(38:55):
on creating a virtual first aid course for parents to get
knowledge out there. And hopefully it's going to be
ready to launch in two to three weeks time.
So I'm in the final editing stage, having created videos,
I'm editing videos, I'm creating, I've got a platform to
put it on, link to the website. So this is all the really new
stuff, but a really exciting newarea.

(39:17):
And as you said, it's that have go attitude.
It's taking a lot longer to get it live than my dream was
because there's been too many things happening.
And I think that's maybe something I'd still need to
learn is to rein things in. But as you say that I can give
it a go, I can make a go of thisattitude.
Progress, not perfection. Yes, I I'm smiling because I I'm

(39:40):
not sure that patience is a massive trait amongst physios
either. We tend to want everything done
yesterday. Don't we just get on with it?
That's. So true, actually it's very true
of me, but but sometimes there just isn't enough hours in the
day to do, particularly when you've got family outside of
work as well, so. Yes, no, I completely identify
with that. And apologies to any extremely

(40:01):
patient physios listening. I'm sure there are very patient
physios out there. I'm sure there are like Joe and
I of of a similar film. Sounds like it.
So would you, could you ever go back?
Do you see that in your future? Sounds like you're not scared
of, you know, future changes if they come, but it's because
you're in any room. I don't think I would because it

(40:23):
would take so much effort to retrain.
And I absolutely love what I do now.
I love that I teach a wide rangeof courses and about four years
ago I moved into also teaching first aid for mental health as
that's more of a thing as well. So I do first aid and the mental
health side because they're bothequally important parts of our
makeup and I believe so I've moved into that.

(40:46):
I've now got the virtual bits and pieces.
I'm a trustee for a local charity.
I'm there's a defib guardian at that charity as well for a local
defib. I've got a child that has
various things needing supporting as well through
through them. So I don't think I would want to
retrain and go back. It would be a lot to unpack if

(41:08):
you did, by the sound of it, or a lot to let go of on your this
ecosystem that you've created. Sounds really, there's an awful
lot of threads to it, aren't there?
I mean, you're connected, but you're doing a lot.
Is that a physio trait do you think?
Do you think we can take that? I think Jackie is another one,
isn't it web builders, Spider web builders?

(41:30):
Yes, yes, yes, definitely. I mean, on a very practical
level, Helen, as we draw the conversation to a close.
I know as a business owner that getting first aid training isn't
always terribly easy these days,even though we all need to do
it. I didn't ask you actually.
Is yours predominantly online orin person?

(41:51):
I do a Little Mix, so predominantly it's in person,
but then I have some virtual offerings.
So my first little foray into virtual was actually for the
Hospice for Saint Gemma's Hospice because going into
COVID, they couldn't do their resuscitation face to face.
I actually went and created somefilms with them and they kindly
said I could stick them up through my, through my website

(42:11):
as well. So they're very COVID orientated
resuscitation. It doesn't suffice for actually
doing the physical hands on skills on a mannequin, but it's
a great fresher for people. So I, I do a lot of in person
courses. If there's groups for individual
healthcare professionals such asphysiotherapists, I've usually
got 1 or maybe 2 per term open basic life support courses.

(42:36):
But if people get in touch and there isn't something going,
then I I usually plan a date a little bit ahead.
We agree a date and then I just stick it on the website and see
if anyone joins them is a way ofdoing it.
Or if there's a group, then I can put on a date together.
If it's something like the more mainstream courses, of course
people can just book themselves onto those and they're a little
bit easier to to actually access.

(42:58):
Your mainstream and first aid updates.
Yeah, so first aid at work, pediatric first aid, first aid
at work and the outdoor course of course as well, that's a
mainstream one as well. So there's so many different
areas to first aid. If you look at the website, I
think I've got something ridiculous like 20 different
courses that regulate, but then I'll be spoken tailor courses

(43:21):
for individual client needs. So it really is quite unlimited.
And I think that's one of the reasons why I wouldn't career
change now is that actually there's so many possibilities
and that there's so much varietyI think is the word just get
bored. And every single course is
different because of the things that the candidates bring to it

(43:42):
in terms of previous experience and questions.
That actually keeps me on my toes as well.
Yeah, now your enthusiasm and your happiness and what you do
really shines through. You're a great advocate for
having successfully made that transition.
So, Helen, if people do want to access any of your stuff, what
what is the website name? It's
www.underwoodhyphentraining.co.uk.Lovely.

(44:08):
And I've also got a blog area onthere with some videos that show
AED awareness, how to use a pocket mask, how to roll someone
over various bits and pieces, and some more recent articles
and things as well. Brilliant.
Well thanks so much Helen for having this great conversation
with me. Really appreciate you giving
your time and lovely to hear howmuch you're enjoying your new

(44:30):
career. Thank you so much, Joe.
Take care. So welcome to this next little
piece in the series of clinicians who have moved out of
their clinician role into something else.
Sometimes something related, sometimes something totally
different, and I'm really pleased to have Martin

(44:51):
Christensen back. Martin is a veteran You Matter
interviewee, so he knows the score and Martin's.
The conversation I'm going to have with Martin is a little bit
different to the other ones I'vehad in this series.
The reason I wanted to talk to Martin is he's pretty much
actually in that transition. Well, he has left physiotherapy

(45:12):
officially, but it's really recent.
And hello, Martin, by the way, thanks for coming back to you
matter. So it was only thank you.
It was only what, a week the week before that you actually
did your last shift as a physio?Or your last week is calling
yourself a physio? Yeah, actually one week today.

(45:33):
So I left my clinic last Tuesday, actually, that was my
last day. And then stepped into my new new
profession, or you can call it on Friday.
Yeah. Good.
Well, I really appreciate it, Martin.
To have someone actually in the moment I think is a really
useful part of this whole conversation series.

(45:53):
So give us a bit of background, Martin, I know where you've
worked and you know what the transitions you've had, not just
with your work life but moving to take a different part of the
country as well. So just give us a quick history
of what brought you to the pointof deciding that physiotherapy
is not what you're going to do at the moment.
Yeah, OK. Yeah, like, so I've run my own

(46:17):
clinic in private clinic, physioclinic the last seven or eight
years. And last year my my my wife got
an offer to take up a leadershiprole in another town or hometown
Buddha, which meant us moving six hours further north.

(46:37):
That was the case, So and so I in.
Norway. We should let people know if
they don't. Know in Norway yeah we're in
Norway and and So what brought on the chains first and foremost
was like life circumstances. Me draw driving every week down
to the clinic and being away from the kids and our new home

(46:58):
for four or five days per week wasn't a good long term
pollution, but I've done that. Why now?
And yeah, I guess so. First and foremost is life
circumstances that led to this change.
But I've been rather, let's say I've been sick of called the

(47:21):
whole profession for a couple ofyears, a bit annoyed, annoyed
and frustrated and and just up with the intrigue of it all.
On. Social media, the intrigue,
yeah. And so when life handed me this
choice and and the office of of different fiscal what do you

(47:46):
call it roles in the new town wasn't like I didn't really want
to. I felt like OK, I could go work
in the municipality stuff didn'tfancy that I could go work at
the hospital didn't fancy that. And it became more and more
clear that maybe I should look outside of the profession.

(48:09):
So I started doing that and got called.
Well, I applied for a work. We're working with youths,
troubled youths that can't live at home for different reasons,
may that be themselves or the family situation.
So I applied for this this, thisgig, thought it was interesting,
had an interview, got offered through all and I just felt

(48:33):
like, yeah, this is the next step.
Did you say? You got you got sort of
headhunted for that role or you found the role.
No, I'll apply for it. Yeah.
I wish I was headhunted that. That would be been cool.
We all want to be headhunted. Don't.
We but I don't think anyone thatlistens to my podcast and listen
to me talking. Scalp hunting?
Maybe? Yeah.

(48:53):
Yeah, probably scalp hunting thedifferent life circumstances
this this last couple of years brought on the possibility of
change. And when I looked into taking up
new roles within the official profession, like either in the
our our equivalent of the NHS orthe municipality roles, they

(49:17):
just didn't Interesting. I just, yeah, didn't that
sinking feeling of that's what I'm doing because I've been
lucky. Like I've run my own clinic for
many years and I've been lucky in that I'm, I've done my, my
own days, my own schedule. I could, I could have worked the

(49:38):
way I wanted to work the way, the way which I think we should
work for some of us. And, and going into a more
strict role did not appeal to meat all at all.
So yeah. So if you'd been able to carry

(49:59):
on in your where you lived before in your clinic, do you
think you would have staged? Do you think you'd still be
doing that happily? Oh, yeah, I guess so at a
certain extent, because I've been fed up for a couple of
years meeting the difference of opinions that that's not debated

(50:25):
rationally anymore, but just shouted at each others.
And I've gotten fed up about that.
So I've been looking outside of the profession for a while.
But then then again, I don't know, maybe maybe in a year or
two I would have reduced my working hours at the clinic and

(50:47):
done something else on the side just to get that, that
difference. But yeah.
Yeah, and it's interesting my thing because some people will
have followed your marvellous Friday confessions on Twitter
and your Facebook group, the Society of Average Physios and
Failures. But for people that haven't come

(51:07):
across you in that format, that was, I mean, that's been going
on for the last 2-3 years, hasn't it?
And my watching that, watching you from the outside and knowing
you, that seemed to me to be a way that you were coping or you
were airing your frustrations and in your throat.

(51:27):
You've got a lot of people's interest and, and there was a
lot of sympathy with your, with your views and lots of people
just loving the platform you created to be honest about the
ridiculousness of us and what wedo sometimes.
Is that true? Is that helpful at the time to
is it? Yeah, definitely, definitely

(51:49):
our, our sort of coping mechanism and, and like as I
said, just getting my frustrations out there and, and
people have cheated on and backed me up and I've found that
really helpful and, and just good stuff.
So I've seen more and more I've just traveled on that type of

(52:12):
stuff rather than going into debates about, well, proper
physio, we could call it our proper MSK debates and, and just
embracing that side of, of a clinician's life.
And yeah, so coping the strategyor if not intended as that, as
so. Does it?

(52:32):
Yeah. And I think I saw someone when
you first announced on XI think that you were going to be coming
away from physio. I saw somebody comment just get
off X. That's that's your issue.
What? What do you think about that?
Yeah, I can I can definitely understand that that viewpoint

(52:54):
and that comment because a lot of social media in our world is
is is terrible. It's just shit and and and a lot
you get a lot of frustration just by watching and reading
doctor being put out there. But but again, I enjoy the the

(53:16):
ability or the option to reach out and talk to different
conditions around around the world.
So I don't think it's it's necessarily just the social
media problem. It's just that's just where the
debates and the stuff happens now, but we're leaving.
That wouldn't be, well, at leastfor me, it wouldn't be an option

(53:39):
or the right thing to do becausethat is just, well, let's ignore
everything that makes my feelings a bit Ripsy Dacey and
and just put a blindfold on and carry on.
That's not the way to do it either, is it?
No, no. And anyone that's listening to
your first podcast with me, where you were so honest about

(54:01):
your history with depression andhow you manage those mental
health issues and carry on beinga physio, that was the thrust of
your message to people really, wasn't it?
That, you know, I'm here, I'm doing this, I'm not cured and I
still manage this stuff every day and I still turn up.
And I know that has always been your preferred approach rather
than denying. Well, and, and also, I mean,

(54:24):
that's your whole Friday confessions thing, isn't it?
And the admitting you're an average physio and a failure or
you feel like it on Sundays, that over.
And it's always been your appeal.
And it's definitely something I have huge empathy with, but I
also understand the the vulnerabilities associated with
being in that kind of way. It's it's a double edged sword,

(54:48):
isn't? It say that again so.
It's a double edged sword, absolutely.
Yes, yeah. So it's this like coping and and
being able to to pull that put out your vulnerability.
Well, if this works are not helpme.
Yeah, that one, that one. Yeah, putting out that and being

(55:09):
able to just as you said in the start, like point out all the
ridiculous stuff that we encounter and think about and do
and embrace that. But at the same time put
yourself out in a black, stick your head in the sand.
But you can't, you can't deny the existence of difference of

(55:30):
opinions. You can't deny the troubles, the
yeah, the problems, the the stuff going on in our
profession. So so just leaving it and stick
your head in the sand and just go away and enjoy yourself.
What for some that that's a goodoption?
Not for me. So does that mean I'm saying

(55:51):
this with with fingers crossed? Does that mean you'll still be
here communicating with us as a profession even though you're
not practising? Oh, yeah, of course.
Yeah. Great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely going to
continue doing that. And hopefully now stepping back,
maybe my interest in the profession will like peek again,

(56:15):
you know, stepping back and missing it because that's
another thing that made me like embrace this change and just
what safety option of the the life circumstances to get out.
It just got as I find myself notenjoying reading articles
anymore. Couldn't be asked started
reading and just like, oh, this is this is boring, this is shit

(56:38):
and just but not not feeling motivated or not feeling the the
want to like better myself. I know more and hopefully when,
if that can come back, I'll stick to rejoin the ranks of

(57:00):
yeah. That would be great.
Professionals once again. I'm sure loads of people
sympathise with that view. I mean, it's, it's ironic and
tragic, isn't it, that the, the fashion itself kills the
enthusiasm. You're doing it everyday or
doing it too much or doing it inthe wrong environment where you
don't feel, you know, what you believe in is the way you can
work that that's what prevents you from, as you say, wanting to

(57:23):
better yourself and be a better physio.
Yeah. Well, I really hope.
Yeah. Maybe coming away a little bit,
getting a breather, getting someperspective from a distance.
You know, knowing you as I do, I'm not at all surprised to hear
that you retain that that interest even if you're not
actually doing the the job for alittle while.

(57:46):
So tell us, Martin, about what you're going into, because it's
quite different, isn't it? Yeah, it's quite a different.
So what I'm going into is I, I work at a youth institution,
Yeah. Now for youth between the age of
13 to 18 and it's almost like a trauma centre type of thing.

(58:06):
It's an acute institution. So we get you to start are being
tossed out of their homes or thepolice come with them.
So there's trouble, really trouble and and tortured youths
that get sent to us and it's real difference because like in

(58:31):
as officio you meet people that want to be there or well.
To some extent. Up list, yeah.
And then the people you are trying to help and protect and
and be there for now in my new work is is they don't want to be
there at all. They're just trying to escape

(58:54):
every chance to get. But yeah.
But as I see it, my role now is to be a good at all for some
people that lack that influence in their life until now and just
make sure they are bad clean clothes.
They have someone to talk to if they want to do that.

(59:16):
There's someone who will stand by them in whatever context and
situation arise and just not leave them.
So that's my role, but it's pretty hard when you have to
like officially you use force detain someone and you know,

(59:39):
this is a like it's a kid and that that doesn't feel right.
So I may or may not have fucked up on this whole profession
change, but it remains to be seen.
I did see a comment yesterday about frying pans and fires.
I was yesterday. I was.
I just came off of. A shift going in 72 hours, an

(01:00:03):
hour, I was knackered because but then again, everyone that
starts a new gig, new work type of thing, that's stressful and
being in a situation where like I'm not comfortable, but I'm not
afraid either is putting an Edison on that.
That was pretty knackered. Yeah, that sounds like a hard

(01:00:27):
gig to sustain for 72 hours. So if you if you look back to
how you really wanted to work and how you did work in your own
clinic as a physio, the the sortof skill sets that were really,
you know, you really held dear the things that were really
close to your heart. Can any of those find a place in
this new role? Yeah, definitely.

(01:00:49):
And that's. Pretty much why I was interested
in this role and even more so after getting through the
interview. Is that this role it's about
communication about people feeling seen, heard, I'm but at
the same time I'm not here to solve any problems like so I I

(01:01:13):
do a lot of the same stuff as I did as official like
communication, talking, but justbeing safe and non judgmental.
But at the same time, I'm not inthe the positions where I need
to solve anything. And that's feels quite nice.
So I can use a lot of things I've learned or developed being

(01:01:37):
a clinician in this gig, right? I just, I don't have the the
pressure of finding out what what is it?
What should we do about it? So, yeah, definitely.
Do you think that's one of the? Things that gets to physios in
the end or health professionals?Yes, certainly.

(01:01:59):
Well, I think it that was the part, the pressure that got me
right. And and I think that as you
said, the slide of confessions, but it became quite of a coping
mechanism or that that insecurity, that constant
pressure or always having to be right or be better or

(01:02:20):
understanding it all. And so, yeah, I think that is
probably the the biggest issue for people that are going out.
Do you think there's anything get out of that?
Yeah. Do you think there's anything,
Martin? In like if you're someone.
Who's a real truth seeker? On a, you know, real human level

(01:02:43):
that you know what I mean, just not telling vibs or things, but
someone that really wants to understand the way things really
are and you know that if that's your motivation.
Do you think there's anything inthe fact that we have to kind of
inhabit a duality or we might behaving?
Inhabiting a duality. As therapist if we're we're.

(01:03:07):
We're brought up with this. Idea that there are diagnosis
and there are correct solutions and then our experiences with
with patients and to a certain extent more modern evidence just
systematically nudges at that quite rightly in my opinion.

(01:03:27):
You know, that there probably isn't a correct diagnosis most
of the time, and there certainlyisn't one way most of the time.
And yet we don't seem to be ableto quite shed that belief that
yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, if I just knew a
bit more and I was just a bit better, I probably could most of
the time get a correct diagnosis.
You know, it seems like we, we can't quite jump into this new

(01:03:50):
way. We we're still, there's
something in it that still wantsto hang on to this.
Yes. But there is a right answer.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I think so.
But in my opinion is well, my thoughts on my is that we
probably failed to embrace. Like I've seen Ben Cormack talk

(01:04:10):
about this a bit and he says like, well, it could be a
diagnosis, a right diagnosis, but you just haven't got the
tools or the equipment or the techniques or whatever to to
find out right now and to embrace that this is what we can
find. And this is there's always
something. And the failure to just embrace

(01:04:34):
that and start talking about what, OK, what can we actually
find and what is necessary by what we have and what we know to
this state. So, yeah, I think there's an
issue there because I think there's a lot of of clinicians
still feeling that pressure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:04:55):
But yeah. But yeah.
But and yeah, yeah. And I mean, I it's a silo.
I know, and I probably live in my own echo Chamber of people
who think similarly to me, but, you know, it's probably banging
my head against school sometimesin that everybody I talk to
seems to, you know, think this way and be desperate to move

(01:05:15):
into this new era. And yet we just, you know,
totally get your frustration, Martin, because we're just not
getting there. And I completely understand your
situation and moving to a new town and just going, oh, I just
can't, I can't put myself back in a situation where there's too
many things that jar with what Iwhere I want this profession to

(01:05:36):
be. Really.
I totally get that. Yeah.
And that probably hits the nail.On the head right there, it's
like I felt that going to a new place and and starting again and
to to I didn't have that in me at all.
I worked too hard and too long to be at the bottom again.

(01:06:00):
Yes. And you know, I know your
circumstances. That even starting a new clinic,
your wife had got a very busy job.
Your kids are still very young. And you loved your last clinic,
didn't you? And the location and the people
that you treated. Yeah, it was wonderful.
Like small islands getting old people and.
And there's just, there's been ayeah, a lot of good words and,

(01:06:26):
and, and actually, and this is like some of the best thing that
happened this weekend at that new job, though it turned out
that was one colleague that had a friend back on the island.
And she was like when she, when she got the new names on the new
hires, we got 4 new hires and saw my name and my where the,

(01:06:48):
where I came from. And that was Harry still.
And she was like, OK, I got a friend in.
I'll come see who is this this little shit?
And so she wrote to to her friend, like, do you know him?
Do you know the name? He's starting a new job.

(01:07:08):
Her I always see. And the response she got back
was, yeah, I hear it. I've never met him.
I hear him. He's a cool dude.
And the whole islands are sad that he's left.
And I felt that I was like, yeah, and that's someone that's
never even met you. But that's just my.
Reputation. Yeah, exactly.

(01:07:31):
And that is? That is wonderful.
And I feel like I feel like I'vesucceeded in my clinic when that
is someone will be like backhanded.
Absolutely backhand compliment. But yeah, yeah.
Yeah, second hand. Yeah.
So, and that was. Wonderful and but still yeah, it

(01:07:53):
was the right decision. Yeah, yeah, good.
Because it's yeah, I. Don't want to draw you back to
go, oh, wasn't that amazing and you haven't got it anymore yet.
I don't want to just be melancholy about it.
I hear you that yeah, it was a good thing.
I did really well in those circumstances that allowed me to
be who I want to be and be the physio I want to be.
But now something different. So yeah, I hear you just had

(01:08:17):
your first shift, 72 hours, really tough call, tough
situation, trauma. How's it, how's it going to go?
What's your what's your prediction?
How do you think this is going to play out over the next few
weeks and months? Well, hopefully.
Like the first day on this shiftI was like constantly thinking
what the fuck have I done? This is this.

(01:08:40):
Is insane. Like you're getting back with.
Don't let them get anything sharp.
They'll stab you. They'll try to kill you.
They'll kick you. This one spits.
This one poops. This one.
I say I'm laughing. This sounds awful.
Yeah. It's just.
Ludicrous really. And on the second day I felt a

(01:09:03):
little bit calm, little bit morerelaxed, but still on edge.
And the last day I was like, yeah, I can do this.
So, so my last day, I just made dinner, made lunch, made
stuffer, made dessert, had a drive.
It would one of the youths like is more relaxed.
So I think it's going to be a wonderful place to get to know

(01:09:28):
myself and get to know others because there is a real chance
and it will happen. I come in a situation that we
need to defend not only in my life but the life of my
colleagues and use force, real force against kids.
But that is still the back end of my mind.

(01:09:48):
So probably let's talk after. I'll have to do that.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's that is about. I think I will.
Enjoy it. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's yeah. No, I I see that, Martin.
And you know, again, it's that truth seeking thing, isn't it?
This is, this is genuine. This is real life.
This is real. These problems are happening

(01:10:11):
now. There's going to be some pretty
spicy moments by the sound of it.
Oh yeah. So what part of you?
Is going to grow. Do you think through this?
You know. Funny thing is that I feel like
it's my uncertainty part. It's going to be like my my
little bit of anxious self and, and just be more steady in my

(01:10:36):
role and more I go actually as an adult, like like a grown,
grown man. I think that what I feel is that
I will learn to handle myself inin situations that are are
uncomfortable and learn more andgrow in in a way about this non

(01:10:57):
judgmental stuff. Like when you're getting kicked
and scream that I spat out and puked on.
It's really easy to yeah, get angry and and go out and say
what are you, why are you doing this?
You little you know, whatever, But at the same time work with
the feeling that these are really trouble you.

(01:11:19):
They're just acting out the everything is going black.
It's not not impersonal, it's not against you.
It's just the situation, the context and everything, the
history, the trauma. And so being more, I will draw
feeling more comfortable in thatunderstanding.
It's it's somewhere I think I'll, I'll develop.

(01:11:39):
Yeah. And do you get support in that
kind of role? For you?
Yeah. What?
I was worried. About before I began is that is
was that it was going to be stuck up like you get one
meeting a month with with peopleand talk about it and you can't
have like dark humour and stuff like that.

(01:12:00):
But I was it was the first day Iwas just met with dark humor.
It's all over the place. So it's a continuous process of
just dealing with it together with my colleagues and and and
everyone I met had the same typeof of like humor.
Laugh it off and you know telling me about last attempt

(01:12:22):
break attempt and people were getting kicked and and smacked
on the back of the head and running like one of the
colleagues that you he was sleeping.
So I had to cope was being called and just ran half naked
through the woods in the middle of the night and like rugby
tackles someone was trying to like take down one other

(01:12:45):
colleague and being said with like a smile and like I had to
run really, really fast. You should have seen me.
I was great, broke my PB. Yeah, exactly.
And and. So like the coping process is is
continuous and I really like that.

(01:13:07):
And yeah, it sounds like it could really play to your.
Well, certainly play to your humour, but yeah, again.
Like I keep coming back to this word.
Being real, you know, you're, you're someone.
Well, you've talked a lot about professionalism, haven't you?
But in physio. But, you know, here I'm sure

(01:13:27):
you're going to see a completelydifferent definition of
professionalism. Yeah, you know that wouldn't.
Wouldn't fit the physio mold but.
Probably is something very strong in its own right.
Yeah, I don't think that. I wouldn't call any of them a
work with through the weekend unprofessional at all.
But you put some of the things they said about the youths and

(01:13:49):
about themselves and about all the colleagues out of context,
out of that place, and it would sound horrible.
Yeah, but but it's not unprofessional within that
context. And that is for me like you
hardly speak about professionalism elsewhere and
and yeah, but it's, it's a different, different one.

(01:14:13):
It's we are environments than than physio when you're talking
about professionalism. Yeah, definitely.
But what they are really, reallytough on or strict on is like
confidential confidentiality, stuff like that, more so even
than healthcare professionals that is established at the get

(01:14:34):
go, yeah. 0 tolerance, yeah. 0. So yeah, well, Martin, I part of
me, really. Really, no.
A lot of me really, really hopesthis goes well for you because I
want it to go well for you. And it sounds at the moment like
a, a really good place for you to to see whether this feels

(01:14:56):
like a better fit. I also want to know what you're
going to miss about us. And I hope there is quite a lot
of things. What?
What will you miss about the world of busier you know?
What I'll miss is, is the momentyou get a good connection with
the patients and you see gradualsuccess like that, little back

(01:15:20):
and forward. And also I'll miss the the,
yeah, the the conversations withpatients when you just talk into
everything and I don't know what's going on.
The patient doesn't know what's going on, but it's just that

(01:15:41):
back and forth, back and forth. Maybe I'll try this.
Maybe I'll try that. Yeah.
What do you think about this? Yeah, that's.
I'll really miss that. And I'll miss, of course, I miss
being a physio because, like, it's an identity, isn't it?
Yeah, it is. It's called Friday.
Physio confessions, right? So yeah, a lot of stuff I'll

(01:16:04):
miss, but I'll, I'll, I'll miss the connection, Yeah, with the
patients the most. I totally get that.
Well, I'm going to finish by putting.
Something to you, Martin, that Iknow I speak for a large part of
the profession when I say that we will miss you just as much as
the Islanders did do and we haveloved you just as much.

(01:16:27):
And you know, you've just sat there and described patient
centred, evidence based care to me.
So I'd say go off, do what you need to do, come back when we
have caught up with you. Yeah.
Yeah, I think you have caught upwith me and and left me in the
dust already. A lot of you, most of you.

(01:16:47):
But let's see what the future brings and and hopefully I'll
get back. But when I left the clinic on
Tuesday, I just felt relief. And when I'll stop missing
again, I'll give you a call and we'll sort it out.

(01:17:12):
Yeah, it's a process. As I said, I don't know if I've
fucked up yet or not. We'll see.
Just taking the next right step,aren't you?
What? What?
Feels right, yeah, but I will finish up.
My Ms. my master's degree good I'm writing it right.
I think that as we as we speak of of of thinking about writing
how it started. I won't make the importance to

(01:17:34):
go and. And you're talking about it.
You're talking about that therapy.
Expo as well aren't. You, yes, parts of it I will
talk about on the therapy. Expo, definitely.
And I'm going to be talking about more of the process of,
of, of thinking around professionalism more from a more

(01:17:57):
practical standpoint and not this stiff neck suit and tie.
Yeah, stuff. And try to relate that to, to,
to being human. But at the same time, I'll try
to get it into some problems with it.
Yeah, I'm sure after a few more shifts in your current.
Role, you'll have some extra material for that talk.

(01:18:20):
Yeah, probably. Well, hopefully.
We'll see, but I'll I'll get I'll first do on Therapy Expo.
I'll first do a session on the Handsome Hub with Anna Maria.
More practical. So I have some stories and some
some scenarios that we'll bring up there and I'll I think you'll
find them enjoyable. Can't can't spill them now.

(01:18:43):
And after the main session at Therapy Expo, I'll be doing our
Q&A with Matt Phillips. Oh, great.
So yeah, so there's three different chances to see me at
Therapy Expo. Well, I know I am definitely
going to see you because. I'll be on the same hub as you
and I'm very much looking forward to that.
Martin, thanks so much for coming on and being as honest as

(01:19:04):
you always are and thank you so much for what you've done for
physio up until now and enjoy this this next phase.
Thanks for inviting me again, I always love.
Talking to you and very good andyeah, thanks.
Take care, enjoy the next shift.As well you as well.

(01:19:24):
So there we have it. That's the end of the series.
Of interviews that I'm going to do for now about clinicians
moving into other roles. I hope you enjoyed the
conversations I hope it gave youa chance to reflect on your own
situation. I hope you were able to
positively reflect on the, the, the flexible skill set that we

(01:19:45):
have as physiotherapists. And you know, if you're not
thinking of making a move, that's, that's great.
That means you're happy. And I also hope it's giving you
a greater appreciation for the person you are going into your
clinical role and the the vast skill set that you employ every
day to to carry out the things you need to do in in your job.

(01:20:06):
On the other hand, if you are thinking of making a career
move, it's yeah, it's not an easy decision.
I think you've heard from all the people that there's, there
was some head scratching and wasn't something they decided
overnight. So, you know, all credit to you.
Hope you're getting the support you need.
I hope these conversations have helped in some way and if you do

(01:20:27):
move into another role then I hope it goes really well for you
so whatever role you're in. Whether you are in your.
Clinical role and happily staying there.
Whether you are moving into something else.
Whether you have moved into something else, I suspect
because of the person you were that went into your clinical
role to start with. You are someone who is used to

(01:20:48):
giving of yourself in many, manydifferent spheres.
So, as ever, my message is to remember your part in the centre
of all of this. You are the most important part
because if you're not looking after yourself, you cannot be in
service to all these other people in your life.
So in short, Please remember that you matter.

(01:21:23):
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