May 8, 2025 • 38 mins
Chewing It Over — MVPs, Belief & Building Before You’re Ready
Jack digs into the messy middle of product development — when you’re building something people can believe in, even if it’s not finished with two wonderful Jo’s (Turner and Elphinston).
Prompted by a conversation about MVPs, early-stage traction, and product storytelling, Jack explores how clarity, confidence, and customer obsession shape successful products long before they’re “ready.”
This episode touches on:
▪ Why belief is often more valuable than features
▪ The fine line between feedback-driven and vision-led development
▪ How to communicate what you’re building — even when it barely exists
▪ And why showing enough to inspire action beats waiting for perfect polish
Whether you're launching a product, building a business, or just figuring out how to talk about your idea, this one’s for you.
Got thoughts or questions? Reach out at: info@physio-matters.com
Like, comment, and subscribe for more deep dives from the front lines of innovation, leadership, and healthcare.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
Good afternoon, folks. Hoe, you're good.
You can hear me. I'm Jack Chu and this is chewing
it over. I'm delighted to have two guests
on that. I won't leave it too long to
draw them in from the waiting room.
And so the Joes are here. You might have noticed.
I think it's might even be a couple of years ago now.
But for some reason across the MSK spectrum, we have many, many
(00:48):
high profile Joe. We've got Joe Gibson, Joe
Alfeston, Joe Turner, John Joe, Joe Belton.
I'm missing a few others. It was I realised weirdly that
that is the the sort of crucial go to name.
So yeah, name your children Joe folks and they're going to do
wonderful things. So I've got two of them with us
today and if I click a couple ofbuttons, as long as I've got
(01:08):
them, got things right, then hopefully I can bring them on.
If, if this has gone live, I've really done my best to sort of
schedule this for when it's meant to go out, which is next
Wednesday. But if it's live, we're just
rolling with it. OK, So apologies if it's, if
it's working, but then you're infor a treat.
You're getting it a week early, which from what I can tell, it
seems to be and it seems to be people are tuning in.
(01:29):
But anyway, the times and the dates are going to be wrong on
it. It says the 7th or the 5th.
So we are not time travellers, but we're going for it.
And so if I click these two buttons, hopefully I will be
joined by Joe and Joanne to makeit easier for us to call, call
you Joe and Joanne, won't it? That'd be that'd be simpler.
So I'll try and refer to you as as such.
(01:49):
Thanks so much for joining me and to talk about coaching and
field, which I've been very excited about.
I hope you 2 are too and all ouraudiences as well.
I want to understand a little bit about how you guys came to
collaborate on this and then a little bit about first, before
we get stuck into the, the, the meat or what should we say the
(02:10):
zest of the we will first, I want to understand about what
you feel that the fundamental need is.
So can you, can one of you firsttell me the tale of how you guys
kind of came to start collaborating first?
Can I take that one, Joanne? I was going to say take that
one, Joe. Well, we already knew each other
and we'd had conversations and Joanne had been a guest on my
(02:31):
podcast and we knew that we shared some thoughts around the
role of coaching in physiotherapy.
But what we didn't realise is that both of us had started
doing a little bit of work independently on the idea of
some kind of course, to, to incorporate the skills into
physio. And we had a chat and we were
(02:52):
kind of, oh, oh, oh, you're doing that too.
And we're quite excited about the fact that each other were
doing it, but we were also rightfrom the get go, really honest
with each other that whilst we liked collaborating with people,
we're also both quite independent and both quite used
to leading things. So we were kind of like, oh, you
(03:13):
know, is this going to work? But I don't know if it's our
age, our stage of career, or just our commitment to being
totally upfront about that. From the word go, it's been
brilliant because we've kind of realised we can collaborate and
still be independent and still respect each other and still
work things out and disagree about things.
(03:34):
So it's been, it came about almost because it made sense and
we've worked out how to make it work with some initial
reservations, which I hope Joanne agrees.
Certainly from my point of view have gone and we find we're
definitely better than the sum of our parts when we get
together. We have found we need to be in
person though, haven't we Joanne?
(03:54):
Generally to get the really goodstuff.
Oh my, it works way better over coffee and cake.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm sorry to not be with
you in coffee and cake then now as well.
But yeah, needs must for us to stream something.
But Joanne, I'll come to you then to try, if you can to to to
frame what you felt between you was the emergent need.
So what is it about coaching and, and your own, you know,
(04:15):
journeys with coaching that's made you feel that this is a
real useful thing for people to understand and what's the
problem? Right.
Well, as you know, probably a lot of people listening now.
I've been teaching for a long, long time now.
And because of the way that Gemsare structured, I come to know
people very well. And it's been all the way along
(04:40):
in Gems. It's the coaching aspect has
been built in. But then during the pandemic
when I went online and the content delivery could be pre
recorded, I've spent a lot more time with people hearing
basically the same things over and over again.
Joe and I both hear them the same, the same stresses, the
(05:01):
same worries, the same pain points.
And of course it's amplified andit's showing in the research
papers that are being generated in terms of physiotherapist
burnout, physiotherapist exhaustion.
And it's not just about the situation because we tend to
(05:21):
think it's just the context, change the context and this will
go away. But but it's not actually true.
And it's not just a case of building in more me time.
There's just so much that can bedone in in how we frame and
manage the situation or the interaction that can really
smooth out a lot of the issues that therapists come with over
(05:48):
and over again. You know, the issues of over
responsibility that the exhaustion, how do I get my
patient on board? I'm worried that the patient
expects this and I'm worried that they're not, you know,
they're not satisfied. I mean, same things over and
over again. And the coaching principles that
(06:09):
Joe and I have been streamliningfrom all of the educations that
we've done and streamlined for clinicians can really speak to
those struggles. And so we just, you know, kind
of got together and went in our each in our own way, we're
already dealing with this. But actually collectively, can
(06:31):
we create something that's supersimple in its way, but something
that can help people to move from the struggle point, which
stops everything back into motion again and into action in
a way that just feels a whole lot calmer and less self judgy,
which is what tends to happen like self judgment.
(06:53):
That self kind of I'm not livingup to my expectations and I'm
struggling thing. That's the thing that I think we
both have a real commitment to for the well-being side, because
we're losing great people and I just would love to believe that
we don't have to. Yeah, there's some real, some
real consequences if we don't resolve this or find ways to
(07:16):
resolve this, aren't there with the the incredible talent
leaving the profession in the industry at large.
Joe, do you, I've got a couple of follow up questions before I
do. I just wonder if you add
anything further to to add to that, especially with regards to
that that observant need. Yeah, I think what Joanne's just
said really talks about addressing the root cause, not
(07:38):
the symptoms. So lots of people will know me
from my activities around Mehab,which could be said a lot of the
time to be dealing with the the outcome, you know, the feelings
of burnout and overwhelm and inadequacy.
And I think along the way I realised that the coaching
(08:01):
skills were a way of, as Joanne's just hinted at,
preventing the development of the problem to an extent.
Not completely, but you know, weknow from basic physiotherapy,
don't we? If we get the opportunity to go
back and try and change the the pathway that's led to the
injury, then we've got much lessremedial work to do later on.
(08:24):
And I think exactly the same is true in this situation with us
as clinicians and professionals.The the process happens to be
called coaching. But for me, it's the it's the
answer to overwork, over responsibility, burnout, feeling
inadequate. If we think about the so on that
(08:46):
root cause analysis, if I was toinvite you both to give your
general thoughts on what you feel the root causes are of
those feelings of inadequacy over self scrutiny, burnout risk
that you're describing. That has meant that then people
get that expectation management's piece sort of not
in line with their patients. I just wondered how much of that
(09:07):
is is personal, social, cultural, all of the above
could. You have jump in, Joe.
Yeah, I feel a bit responsible as a generation and you know,
maybe unfairly, but it feels a bit like I'm from the generation
that bred the problem and I, I don't take personal
(09:28):
responsibility for it. I blame you personally.
You recorded me. I feel like I experienced the
development of the problem with myself in my very first job and
(09:48):
in my training at university. So I completely swallowed.
The pill of your job is to hear all the problem, find a
diagnosis, learn all the the recipes or the fixes for all
these diagnosis. Get on with it.
If it's not working, it's your fault.
(10:08):
And you know, I had a couple of seniors that quite successfully
reinforced that illusion for me when I was younger.
And I don't know if if that is true.
I mean, I have to say the young visios that I speak to today
seem to be coming out with quitesimilar senses of
responsibility. So I'm not sure it's changed,
but I kind of feels like I was in the generation where the, the
(10:32):
problems started to grow, this sense of over responsibility and
that maybe it's, it's a throwback to the early days of
physiotherapy and, and all the truths which we're now grappling
with. But at the time, you know, we're
taught as absolute truths. For me personally, in my career,
it feels like that's where it started.
I expected a lot of myself because I felt I'd learnt that
(10:56):
that was the expectation of me. And if if I wasn't fulfilling on
that, then the problem was probably me.
Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah, Joanne.
So. Yeah, I was just going to say
that it just a lot of people when actually asked in a bit
more depth say, well, I did qualify with the belief that I
(11:17):
was qualifying to be the expert.My job is to fix people and my
job then is to get it right. And if I'm not getting it,
whatever right is, I guess rightis to get some kind of outcome
happening, then I'm failing. And of course, the whole thing
(11:38):
is predicated on complete fiction because we cannot know
with a complex human being all the factors, no matter how good
you're, you know, or how extensive your initial
evaluation is, there are a lot of factors in play and we aren't
that realistic about that. So, you know, this business of
(12:01):
being the expert fixer and therefore I am responsibility
for the outcome, responsible forthe outcome is really, really
prevalent. And I hear it all the time.
And people show up on courses that oh, I should have done this
better or I should have picked. And it's just like, why should
you have? Like, did you have a great
reason for what you picked? And they're like, well, yeah,
(12:24):
this was my reasoning. I'm like, so great, That was a
great start point. The fact that it didn't bring
about the exact result you were hoping for doesn't necessarily
make it a problem of your execution.
It means that you've hit something unexpected.
And then we go, OK, that's a newpiece of information.
So what do I glean from this to then inform my next step?
(12:46):
It doesn't mean we turn it back on ourselves and go, oh, I
should have known more. I should have done better.
You know all those scripts that we run as perfectionists?
It's very medical, it's very orthopaedic medical even it's
find it, fix it, forget it rightnext.
And I think I've always struggled to find a discipline
(13:08):
of which it applied to. But it's certainly we we kind of
know inherently that MSK practice is not mathematics, but
what is it? And it's probably more like the
law than it is mathematics, at least in a sense that these
things are negotiated, they're exploratory, they're
interpretive. And so whilst I'm still
exploring and trying to work outexactly what discipline is more
like than the mathematics, I'm landing on low for now.
(13:32):
But I wondered if you had a brilliant podcast with Matt
Phillips, who is a great friend of mine and, and, and a great
interview and storyteller. And I want to signpost people to
that because I think that will cover some great ground that we
might not get to today. But in it there were some lovely
points whereby you described awkward moments and and you felt
like that maybe you'd been inspired somewhat by people
(13:53):
describing awkward moments, blocks, barriers, areas of
discomfort that on on examination, you guys felt that
people don't deserve to feel this way.
That guy, the skin crawly awkwardness that they just don't
deserve. So can you just give me some
insights into into that please, because it seems like it
inspired some of this work do. You want to go Joanne, on this
(14:13):
one. Sure.
In terms of awkward moments, just picking up a couple of the
things that, you know, I mean, Iwas just literally just this
weekend did my first, my gosh, my first two live face to face
gigs with practitioners since 2019.
So we had a bit of catching up to do.
(14:34):
But what was really evident was the same themes are coming
through, but more so. So, you know, the the issue of,
you know, how do I, how do I getmy patient like my favorite,
well, my least favorite term, how do I sell it to the patient?
And like, what do you mean sell it?
You know, and then the other side of that was like, how do we
(14:55):
get patient compliance? I'm like, OK, so let's just be
clear about what that that is. And and you know, Joe and I have
come up with a model of five pillars that we can draw from.
So one of those is agreements. And it's just like, well, the
thing about compliance goes awaywhen the two of you have come to
(15:18):
an agreement about, you know, understanding where we are and
how we're moving forward and that we keep coming back to that
agreement to check in with each other.
Because that then also gives us some way of dealing with the
whole, Oh my gosh, am I meeting my patients expectations and
stressing about it. And one person was just like,
oh, and what could you do? And they're looking at me
(15:41):
blankly and like, and then I went, I could ask them.
I'm like, yes, we could ask them, you know, And it's just
like, I mean, it sounds self-evident once you bring it
out, but it isn't part of commonpractice.
So it's, it sounds really simple.
It's, it's not, it needs a little bit of framing, but once
(16:04):
you actually see it, see the frame, you realize, oh, there is
actually a bunch of stuff I could do here that takes away
some of this issue of expectations and compliance once
you know how to frame it. So that's one of them.
Definitely no Joe. I was so tempted to bring your
(16:26):
relative in as a cameo then. Oh, that was like me.
Very me very chewing it over but.
I that was like the lockdown baby.
Yeah, I thought that, yeah, brilliant, but that.
Was my mother looking for her spare key?
I'd say, well, I'm sorry to havenot drawn her in really, but if
it had been the delivery driver,I definitely would.
So if you've got your composure,have you got any more to add?
(16:48):
To I'm stillwell within my good moment, I don't think well, my
mom just came in then to illustrate unpredictability and
flexibility in the moment so. I wanted to come in and make
some sort of unnecessary demand on you that could then we could,
we could, we could reflect on, but now go ahead.
She's the next physio if that helps.
(17:08):
If you could have bought her, Yeah, Yeah.
Sorry. I was half listening to what
Joanne said, so apologies if I repeat what some she just said.
But I did. Yeah.
The moment where Joanne said, oh, we could ask.
I do quite a bit of work with our more junior physio at the
moment. And so many times when we're
talking, I'll say to him, well, have you asked the patient, you
(17:32):
know, could you bring that awkward thing out in the open?
So things like or you know, we've had a couple of treatments
and I'm not quite sure if I'm doing what the patient expected
me to do. I'm not quite sure if we're
heading in the right direction. And nine times out of 10 my
answer is, well, you know, why don't you talk about it?
(17:53):
And for communicators, it amazesme how infrequently that is our
go to. I suspect socially, you know, if
we're with a friend and there's a situation we think, oh, I'm
not quite sure what's going on here, I'm just going to ask
them. I suspect personality wise,
we're probably likely to be the one in the friendship to go.
(18:15):
Should we just talk about this thing?
But when you're in that funny, slightly weird physio patient,
expert recipient role, we seem to get a bit in our heads about
that. Like we, we can't just suddenly
bring something out in the open and, and, and deal with it here.
We, we seem to think that assumption is going to get us
(18:37):
through on both sides. I mean, poor patient.
It's not their job to, to normalise things.
They're in an unusual situation.And really the onus is on us to
to show the past, show that there is a pathway through and
say, come on, we can talk about this.
You know, if this doesn't feel right or, you know, I'm getting
a sense that you might be feeling this.
(18:57):
Are you? The answer might be yes or no.
But it's it's so much more helpful just to bring stuff into
conversation, which for me really is what coaching is.
Getting the cards on the table and various analogies that I
overuse people, I think this is they kind of do under negotiate
various elements of their lives.But one of the things that I
(19:18):
think this revealed to me when observing some of the same same
things, Of course, it'd be a really uncomfortable bandwagon
for me to say, oh, you have observed all the same things
done absolutely nothing about it.
So of course there's plenty of of stuff that you guys have
touched on that I think is absolutely necessary and
something that you've joined thedots on that that me and others
might have spotted morsels of, but not the whole the whole
(19:39):
sandwich. But I think in this instance,
people definitely, it's almost like the the shallowness of the,
the consent that they've assumedhas kind of been been realized
by this. They kind of, if you've not laid
out what this is going to look like, what it is you're getting
them to consent for, what it is you're getting them to pay for
(20:01):
then. Actually, there is a duty of
care for you to lean into that discomfort a little bit because
actually we, we as we've you know, you, you've rightly
identified if anything, that's the thing that's going to unlock
that discomfort. It's not that you've got to then
hold it and live with it. It's actually that's going to
resolve it. But even if it didn't, that's
tough luck. Really.
That is an important part of howand what you've consented them
for and, and to have missed thatchapter, that is a failure of
(20:24):
education. But it's also a really
interesting thing about that power dynamic and about that,
that that was, we've constantly fallen into this sort of healer
thing and that we need to be that who says, and when did you
agree to that? When did you consent to be a
healer? When did you to be consent to be
put in that box? And you probably didn't.
(20:44):
And so let's negotiate let's on individual levels as well as
then thinking consciously about how we might market ourselves
and we might behave where we might focus our attention and
our own coaching to try and resolve it.
So anyway, I'm going off on one but feel free.
To disagree, there's a good .0, sorry.
Gay Joe. Are you sure it's a good point,
Jack? Because I think people raise
(21:06):
this point all the time when talking about coaching.
People will often say, but my patient just tells me they just
want to be fixed. They don't want to have a chat
with me and they just want theirpain to go away.
And that's completely understandable.
Therefore, I think it's even more important in the early
stages to, as you say, lay your cards out, negotiate how this
process is going to be because it's, you know, there's a lot of
(21:28):
talk of just give the patient what they want.
That isn't coaching. Coaching is having a
conversation early around, OK, what are you expecting?
OK, here's my thoughts on that. What are your thoughts on that?
And now I even before I years before I discovered coaching, I
would frequently start my consultations explaining how I
(21:50):
generally work, just in case. That's completely opposite to
the expectation, which quite often it was, and it didn't mean
we didn't get to a really good place.
But had I not had that conversation first, we'd have
been straight into awkwardness and misunderstanding.
Give you an example of a patientI've had recently So the patient
arrived and I knew she was goingto be a complex chronic patient,
(22:12):
but the reality was so much morethan what you could possibly
have expected. And part way through the
evaluation, which is about the time that a therapist starts to
feel really anxious about, am I going to get anything done here?
Because, yeah, I mean, I haven't.
We all had that. How am I going to do this and
get a treatment done? And it's just about that time.
(22:35):
And this is what we want to helppeople recognize.
When you get that awkward momentand you feel it, that's the time
at which you go, OK, so here's the situation.
I've gleaned this information. But what I can see is that in
order to be able to take us in the best possible direction, I'm
going to have to spend some timegetting the rest of the
(22:56):
information. Is that OK with you that we
spend our time doing that today so we can have a really clear
plan for when we get back together again?
And then the patient gets a choice, you know, and there's an
agreement there. So we don't get to the end of
the session going, oh, the patient's not going to be happy,
(23:17):
or haven't, you know, done XY and Z?
It's just like I've actually laid it right out there on the
table because I know that yes, Icould do the patient pleasing
thing and not really complete the examination to the extent I
need to in order to do somethingthinking it's going to make them
happy. Or I can lay it on the table and
(23:40):
say this is actually going to beimportant because you actually
want something to change. So for us to be able to make the
best, you know, well, I'm not going to say decision, but, you
know, you've gathered all the information.
This is the most likely route tohelp us get there.
(24:01):
Given that we've already talked about what it is that they're
actually wanting, what's meaningful, They get a chance to
go, actually, yeah, I'd rather spend this time because I
actually now understand what's going on much more.
I never did that before. And so again, it's like
recognizing those moments and then going, oh, that's one of
(24:22):
those moments. This is probably a transparency
moment in order to get agreementso that we both know where we
are and the patient's not wondering.
So are we going to get to the treatment part?
And the therapist is going, are they thinking we're going to get
to the treatment part? But I can't really do that
ethically because we haven't actually got all the facts and
the whole thing can just go away.
(24:44):
Again, it's not like it's the the thing with all of this stuff
that Joe and I are putting together, all of it can be
actioned straight away. It's just understanding what
that what someone once describedas a squeaky butt moment that
comes along, knowing what that is and then realizing, oh, this
is one of those moments. I have it for that.
(25:07):
And if you if you he set the scene and set that context and
it just decreases the likelihoodof it happening, but also gives
you that ability to re referenceto what that was.
And so remember the corridor conversations that I were taught
some of the most powerful thingsI was taught by mentors,
including Mike Stewart was a bigearly influence in my career.
Still great friend and mentor ofmine, but just just observed by
(25:31):
Long Corridor that we had Margate Hospital, if anyone
knows it right, we're walking down there and I just happened
to be picking my patient up not long behind Mike and just
noticing that I was walking along just literally just
showing the patient where they were going.
Whereas Mike was already deep inconversation about various
things and it weren't just aboutIce Breakers.
At first I thought it was, but Inoticed that whatever he might
(25:53):
have been ice breaking about, whether it be the weather or the
football shirt they might have been wearing at some point in
that interaction. He said.
Today's bit of a finding out session, want to understand as
much about you as I can and understand what you're after and
what you're looking for because then we can try and work on that
together. And a version of that was then
described amongst all, all otherthings.
I'm describing this corridors like a mile long, aren't I now?
(26:15):
But I'm just meaning like amongst it.
You always ask that and it was just that that was obviously
genius and I didn't know until Istarted doing it and realizing
that he's just explained what they're going to do and why
they're going to do it. Because the more he can
understand and the more he understands their goals, then
that's exactly what the whole interaction is.
And so, and then here between the curtains, the fact that he
would then at some points take stock, especially the complexity
(26:37):
of the patients you can imagine Mike Stewart was seeing.
So he was able to take stock andsay, well, remember, I just, I
really want to understand as much as I can about you and
stuff and we're going to move towards that.
But if I had a magic wand with me, of course I'd be looking to
fix it. But that's not really why, you
know, you're here. And you could see him able to
use his humour because he was able to back reference to the
context that he'd set. And and then whilst, you know,
it's only one example, it's, it's something that people take
(26:59):
for granted and that learning the skills that will help to set
that foundation is best noticed.I didn't notice till years later
that that is actually in in a coaching framework.
And I think it took for me to beworking with and observing your
work, Joe Turner, for me to realise.
Aha, yeah. That the, the best
exemplification of that, if you needed to put a name on it or,
(27:21):
or have a category on it is, is coaching, which I can so imagine
and understand why you guys would collaborate on on
something like this, because it's it is such a crying out
need as you, as you've describedit.
Can you give me insights into, Ialmost feel like you might have
been spoke for choice, right? Because this is such a big
topic. So I'm fascinated by what then
(27:42):
Coaching Unpeeled is and what itdoes and things like that.
So can you give me a sense of the product, the course and what
that entails for me? Yeah, you're absolutely right,
Jack. We, we looked at it and thought,
OK, we are not looking to train people to be coaches.
We're trying to, we need to try and sift out the bits that are
(28:05):
most relevant to clinical practice and can be most
immediately used in a practical sense.
And Joanne and I have both done some additional training beyond
our foundational training with the ICF, the International
Coaching Federation. And they have quite a
comprehensive set of, they call them core competencies.
(28:30):
Now within that, there's too much for what we wanted to do.
But we took those kind of as a baseline and started talking
about them, had a great big document where we tried to work
out which bits were actually directly relevant to a clinical
scenario. And then we gradually distilled
these down into five, what we call pillars.
(28:51):
Joanne, if it's OK with you, I will name them.
I don't think that's giving too much away.
So our five pillars are partnering agreements,
anchoring, evoking awareness andsomething called GSC which is
gathering, sifting and oh, what's the C Joanne confirming
and. You just really wanted it to be
(29:12):
5 and not 8, didn't you? You've made #5A3 I love.
That good enough time for it? Brilliant.
You just really didn't want it to be 8, OK?
So the structure is around thosefive pillars and the coaching
and field course is based aroundan initial weekend where we will
essentially teach those pillars that with constant, you know,
(29:34):
role play and breakout rooms andyou know, straight into what
clinical scenario does this relate to go and have a practice
at it. And then there's a three-week
period for people to go and practice in real time with their
patients and then come back and have some mentoring.
But we've felt really strongly that the, the practice time and
(29:54):
the the, the not role play, but the breakout room stuff is so
important because when you hear the principles, it sounds simple
and it is simple. But what isn't simple is those
words coming out of your mouth in the clinic room because
they're different to the ones that normally come out and the
responses that come back are different.
And the skill is in learning to navigate that scenario.
(30:17):
So we were really keen that it wasn't just us teaching a load
of stuff and then hoping that people manage to put that to
some practical use with their patients and not being able to
follow up with them. Yeah, brilliant.
I can. I can so see how that would
start to piece together. Joanne, what do you feel is it
is about coaching unpeeled that makes it so unique?
(30:39):
Because it obviously, I mean, tome it sounds so unique in every
which way. But I just wonder if you could
feel because you've you've taught and still continue to
teach so many different things in different ways.
But what is it about this that makes it a unique offering?
I think that people are banding about the idea of coaching and
trying to bring it into therapies.
But The thing is that between the two of us, the actual number
(31:02):
of hours of really, really intimately working with, with
therapists, working with clinicians, hearing their
struggles, we, we know them inside out.
These are our people and we basically bringing instead of
accidentally stumbling on, I caninsight like you stumbled on
(31:24):
with Mike Jack, instead of just hoping to stumble on something,
what we're doing is saying, sure, let's make these things
actually explicit for you. This is a tool kit.
It's not this onerous new body of work that's going to be
really hard to understand. Far from it.
It's like, OK, let's talk about when it feels hard because
(31:45):
you're all going to come up withthe same the same, it feels hard
then we know about that. So both of us have spent a lot
of time coaching and a lot of time knowing that framework.
But we also have an absolutely huge, you know, I've been
working with clinches for 25 years now and Joe's been doing
(32:09):
all her deep work with her one to one coaching and you know,
all of those kinds of things. So I don't think that there's
anybody who could probably bringthis in the way that we do.
But also with the the educators mind, how do we make this easy
for you to actually take it intoclinic tomorrow?
(32:30):
It needs to be not too much brain, easy to put into place,
needs practice, but can it change your practice tomorrow?
That's what we're after. And these things can be, they're
very powerful experiences because often from what I've
(32:51):
observed, including in myself, that that some of the perception
that we've ended up complying with and the expectation that
we've not been resetting with our patients is sometimes based
on a sort of deep rooted sense of, of duty of sometimes
(33:11):
underlying insecurities based onsometimes very specific things,
sometimes really broad things. And so I just look on at the
format you've created, which hasthis really lovely hybrid model
that then doesn't think that this is a set of things that can
be perfectly acquired by a few teaching modules or webinars,
right? It's something that needs to be
(33:33):
grounded and practised, but thenalso can be enhanced by the
natural communities that you both create within your other
content that will enhance and allow for that practice work to,
to, to develop. I think that that that's where I
can see how thoughtful it's being designed is that it's
taking the best of both models because the, the downside of in
(33:54):
person is, is purely the onerousnature of the time it would take
to then create what it might be a network of 4-5 weekends.
I mean, this is a subject matterthat is rich enough to
absolutely fill that sort of time frame and be valuable at
that. But of course, the investment
both in time and money for that would be would be challenging
for every party. So instead, it's about trying to
(34:15):
recognize right. How can we make sure we ground
it appropriately in the in the first instance, but then enhance
it through that community work and, and and using virtual
tools. So it's, it's such an such an
exciting proposition. Before I forget to because I'd
be guilty of I'm going to pull this up.
It's going to go all over our faces there.
Look, this is AQR code. I need to whip your phones out
your pockets if you're watching this now, because you'll only
(34:37):
forget, just as I nearly forgot to put it up on screen.
Scan this QR code and have a little look at coaching unpeeled
because it's something that I needn't take that off yet.
It is something that is so likely to be for you,
potentially for colleagues. It's something that if it's not
for you now, it might be in the future.
(34:57):
I need you to go away and reflect on some of those
awkward, uncomfortable moments that we've just described.
I will put some links in the show notes in the descriptions
when this goes out on socials. We've ended up streaming live
amusingly, because I thought I'dscheduled it on this software
and it's gone live, but that means it's gone out on social.
So you're lucky few that have seen it on social media, then
that's great. But it will go through on the
(35:18):
podcast feeds next week as as isscheduled on our weekly show.
And so if you if you've been lucky enough to get it on the
early feeds, then you might wantto snap up the tickets to to the
event. Just tell us a little bit about
when it is a certain and the because it's a cohort type
system, isn't it? But when's your when's?
When's it start off? Our first weekend is June the
(35:40):
7th and 8th and then the follow up one is 3 weeks after that.
I can't remember the exact date but a Saturday three weeks after
that is the second one but it's all on that.
If they scan that QR code, the details are all there.
Yeah, I just think I can, I can already think about the ways in
which that work will be shattered about and enhanced
(36:01):
through various different channels of of support as well.
I know that when I think about how this is compatible with the
the ME Hubbers as well as then other elements and nature within
offers your matters audience as well, it just crosses over so,
so brilliantly and I'm so glad to see you guys getting
together. I know that I've been watching.
(36:21):
I don't know why you. I just want to assure people
that if you're going to collaborate into professionally,
you don't have to share a name. So you 2 have done it.
Claire Mitchell and Claire Robertson have just done it.
It's like it's just a weird thing where it has to be exactly
the same name, but it's me and Jack March, I suppose you could
say as well, isn't it? We're both, we're both jacks.
So yeah, I. Think you just just proved your
(36:42):
point. You do have to have the same
name, so just don't bother collaborating with anyone that
hasn't got the same name as you 3. 3 success stories there, so
maybe that's what it doesn't mean.
We're not square. We're not.
We're not square at. All though it doesn't work.
You're having a lot of fun with the the citrus fruits, aren't
you, with this unpeeled? I'm really enjoying for for
branding so. I wanted that to be an answer to
(37:04):
what makes it different. Oh, nice.
Yeah, of course. It's definitely.
So anything, anything else that I've I've forgotten to mention
or you want to mention before wewrap up?
No, I think I need to go and find my mother's door key.
So. It's just that the point of this
is that clinicians are good people who do deserve to
(37:27):
actually feel OK about themselves.
And so many people are not feeling OK but not realizing
they don't have to feel that way.
And that is a really explicit kind of reason for Joe and I to
be doing doing coaching on field.
That's a really good. That's a lovely place for us to
(37:48):
finish, isn't it? Yeah.
It doesn't have to feel this way.
And you deserve better than to be torturing yourself over these
over these expectations. So, yeah, thank you.
And thank you for the work you're doing.
I'm so excited to see how it allgoes.
Please do TuneIn that QR code just quickly before I go.
But then we're just going to smile and wave as the music
plays. So bye, folks.
See you later.
Good afternoon, folks. Hoe, you're good.
You can hear me. I'm Jack Chu and this is chewing
it over. I'm delighted to have two guests
on that. I won't leave it too long to
draw them in from the waiting room.
And so the Joes are here. You might have noticed.
I think it's might even be a couple of years ago now.
But for some reason across the MSK spectrum, we have many, many
(00:48):
high profile Joe. We've got Joe Gibson, Joe
Alfeston, Joe Turner, John Joe, Joe Belton.
I'm missing a few others. It was I realised weirdly that
that is the the sort of crucial go to name.
So yeah, name your children Joe folks and they're going to do
wonderful things. So I've got two of them with us
today and if I click a couple ofbuttons, as long as I've got
(01:08):
them, got things right, then hopefully I can bring them on.
If, if this has gone live, I've really done my best to sort of
schedule this for when it's meant to go out, which is next
Wednesday. But if it's live, we're just
rolling with it. OK, So apologies if it's, if
it's working, but then you're infor a treat.
You're getting it a week early, which from what I can tell, it
seems to be and it seems to be people are tuning in.
(01:29):
But anyway, the times and the dates are going to be wrong on
it. It says the 7th or the 5th.
So we are not time travellers, but we're going for it.
And so if I click these two buttons, hopefully I will be
joined by Joe and Joanne to makeit easier for us to call, call
you Joe and Joanne, won't it? That'd be that'd be simpler.
So I'll try and refer to you as as such.
(01:49):
Thanks so much for joining me and to talk about coaching and
field, which I've been very excited about.
I hope you 2 are too and all ouraudiences as well.
I want to understand a little bit about how you guys came to
collaborate on this and then a little bit about first, before
we get stuck into the, the, the meat or what should we say the
(02:10):
zest of the we will first, I want to understand about what
you feel that the fundamental need is.
So can you, can one of you firsttell me the tale of how you guys
kind of came to start collaborating first?
Can I take that one, Joanne? I was going to say take that
one, Joe. Well, we already knew each other
and we'd had conversations and Joanne had been a guest on my
(02:31):
podcast and we knew that we shared some thoughts around the
role of coaching in physiotherapy.
But what we didn't realise is that both of us had started
doing a little bit of work independently on the idea of
some kind of course, to, to incorporate the skills into
physio. And we had a chat and we were
(02:52):
kind of, oh, oh, oh, you're doing that too.
And we're quite excited about the fact that each other were
doing it, but we were also rightfrom the get go, really honest
with each other that whilst we liked collaborating with people,
we're also both quite independent and both quite used
to leading things. So we were kind of like, oh, you
(03:13):
know, is this going to work? But I don't know if it's our
age, our stage of career, or just our commitment to being
totally upfront about that. From the word go, it's been
brilliant because we've kind of realised we can collaborate and
still be independent and still respect each other and still
work things out and disagree about things.
(03:34):
So it's been, it came about almost because it made sense and
we've worked out how to make it work with some initial
reservations, which I hope Joanne agrees.
Certainly from my point of view have gone and we find we're
definitely better than the sum of our parts when we get
together. We have found we need to be in
person though, haven't we Joanne?
(03:54):
Generally to get the really goodstuff.
Oh my, it works way better over coffee and cake.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm sorry to not be with
you in coffee and cake then now as well.
But yeah, needs must for us to stream something.
But Joanne, I'll come to you then to try, if you can to to to
frame what you felt between you was the emergent need.
So what is it about coaching and, and your own, you know,
(04:15):
journeys with coaching that's made you feel that this is a
real useful thing for people to understand and what's the
problem? Right.
Well, as you know, probably a lot of people listening now.
I've been teaching for a long, long time now.
And because of the way that Gemsare structured, I come to know
people very well. And it's been all the way along
(04:40):
in Gems. It's the coaching aspect has
been built in. But then during the pandemic
when I went online and the content delivery could be pre
recorded, I've spent a lot more time with people hearing
basically the same things over and over again.
Joe and I both hear them the same, the same stresses, the
(05:01):
same worries, the same pain points.
And of course it's amplified andit's showing in the research
papers that are being generated in terms of physiotherapist
burnout, physiotherapist exhaustion.
And it's not just about the situation because we tend to
(05:21):
think it's just the context, change the context and this will
go away. But but it's not actually true.
And it's not just a case of building in more me time.
There's just so much that can bedone in in how we frame and
manage the situation or the interaction that can really
smooth out a lot of the issues that therapists come with over
(05:48):
and over again. You know, the issues of over
responsibility that the exhaustion, how do I get my
patient on board? I'm worried that the patient
expects this and I'm worried that they're not, you know,
they're not satisfied. I mean, same things over and
over again. And the coaching principles that
(06:09):
Joe and I have been streamliningfrom all of the educations that
we've done and streamlined for clinicians can really speak to
those struggles. And so we just, you know, kind
of got together and went in our each in our own way, we're
already dealing with this. But actually collectively, can
(06:31):
we create something that's supersimple in its way, but something
that can help people to move from the struggle point, which
stops everything back into motion again and into action in
a way that just feels a whole lot calmer and less self judgy,
which is what tends to happen like self judgment.
(06:53):
That self kind of I'm not livingup to my expectations and I'm
struggling thing. That's the thing that I think we
both have a real commitment to for the well-being side, because
we're losing great people and I just would love to believe that
we don't have to. Yeah, there's some real, some
real consequences if we don't resolve this or find ways to
(07:16):
resolve this, aren't there with the the incredible talent
leaving the profession in the industry at large.
Joe, do you, I've got a couple of follow up questions before I
do. I just wonder if you add
anything further to to add to that, especially with regards to
that that observant need. Yeah, I think what Joanne's just
said really talks about addressing the root cause, not
(07:38):
the symptoms. So lots of people will know me
from my activities around Mehab,which could be said a lot of the
time to be dealing with the the outcome, you know, the feelings
of burnout and overwhelm and inadequacy.
And I think along the way I realised that the coaching
(08:01):
skills were a way of, as Joanne's just hinted at,
preventing the development of the problem to an extent.
Not completely, but you know, weknow from basic physiotherapy,
don't we? If we get the opportunity to go
back and try and change the the pathway that's led to the
injury, then we've got much lessremedial work to do later on.
(08:24):
And I think exactly the same is true in this situation with us
as clinicians and professionals.The the process happens to be
called coaching. But for me, it's the it's the
answer to overwork, over responsibility, burnout, feeling
inadequate. If we think about the so on that
(08:46):
root cause analysis, if I was toinvite you both to give your
general thoughts on what you feel the root causes are of
those feelings of inadequacy over self scrutiny, burnout risk
that you're describing. That has meant that then people
get that expectation management's piece sort of not
in line with their patients. I just wondered how much of that
(09:07):
is is personal, social, cultural, all of the above
could. You have jump in, Joe.
Yeah, I feel a bit responsible as a generation and you know,
maybe unfairly, but it feels a bit like I'm from the generation
that bred the problem and I, I don't take personal
(09:28):
responsibility for it. I blame you personally.
You recorded me. I feel like I experienced the
development of the problem with myself in my very first job and
(09:48):
in my training at university. So I completely swallowed.
The pill of your job is to hear all the problem, find a
diagnosis, learn all the the recipes or the fixes for all
these diagnosis. Get on with it.
If it's not working, it's your fault.
(10:08):
And you know, I had a couple of seniors that quite successfully
reinforced that illusion for me when I was younger.
And I don't know if if that is true.
I mean, I have to say the young visios that I speak to today
seem to be coming out with quitesimilar senses of
responsibility. So I'm not sure it's changed,
but I kind of feels like I was in the generation where the, the
(10:32):
problems started to grow, this sense of over responsibility and
that maybe it's, it's a throwback to the early days of
physiotherapy and, and all the truths which we're now grappling
with. But at the time, you know, we're
taught as absolute truths. For me personally, in my career,
it feels like that's where it started.
I expected a lot of myself because I felt I'd learnt that
(10:56):
that was the expectation of me. And if if I wasn't fulfilling on
that, then the problem was probably me.
Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah, Joanne.
So. Yeah, I was just going to say
that it just a lot of people when actually asked in a bit
more depth say, well, I did qualify with the belief that I
(11:17):
was qualifying to be the expert.My job is to fix people and my
job then is to get it right. And if I'm not getting it,
whatever right is, I guess rightis to get some kind of outcome
happening, then I'm failing. And of course, the whole thing
(11:38):
is predicated on complete fiction because we cannot know
with a complex human being all the factors, no matter how good
you're, you know, or how extensive your initial
evaluation is, there are a lot of factors in play and we aren't
that realistic about that. So, you know, this business of
(12:01):
being the expert fixer and therefore I am responsibility
for the outcome, responsible forthe outcome is really, really
prevalent. And I hear it all the time.
And people show up on courses that oh, I should have done this
better or I should have picked. And it's just like, why should
you have? Like, did you have a great
reason for what you picked? And they're like, well, yeah,
(12:24):
this was my reasoning. I'm like, so great, That was a
great start point. The fact that it didn't bring
about the exact result you were hoping for doesn't necessarily
make it a problem of your execution.
It means that you've hit something unexpected.
And then we go, OK, that's a newpiece of information.
So what do I glean from this to then inform my next step?
(12:46):
It doesn't mean we turn it back on ourselves and go, oh, I
should have known more. I should have done better.
You know all those scripts that we run as perfectionists?
It's very medical, it's very orthopaedic medical even it's
find it, fix it, forget it rightnext.
And I think I've always struggled to find a discipline
(13:08):
of which it applied to. But it's certainly we we kind of
know inherently that MSK practice is not mathematics, but
what is it? And it's probably more like the
law than it is mathematics, at least in a sense that these
things are negotiated, they're exploratory, they're
interpretive. And so whilst I'm still
exploring and trying to work outexactly what discipline is more
like than the mathematics, I'm landing on low for now.
(13:32):
But I wondered if you had a brilliant podcast with Matt
Phillips, who is a great friend of mine and, and, and a great
interview and storyteller. And I want to signpost people to
that because I think that will cover some great ground that we
might not get to today. But in it there were some lovely
points whereby you described awkward moments and and you felt
like that maybe you'd been inspired somewhat by people
(13:53):
describing awkward moments, blocks, barriers, areas of
discomfort that on on examination, you guys felt that
people don't deserve to feel this way.
That guy, the skin crawly awkwardness that they just don't
deserve. So can you just give me some
insights into into that please, because it seems like it
inspired some of this work do. You want to go Joanne, on this
(14:13):
one. Sure.
In terms of awkward moments, just picking up a couple of the
things that, you know, I mean, Iwas just literally just this
weekend did my first, my gosh, my first two live face to face
gigs with practitioners since 2019.
So we had a bit of catching up to do.
(14:34):
But what was really evident was the same themes are coming
through, but more so. So, you know, the the issue of,
you know, how do I, how do I getmy patient like my favorite,
well, my least favorite term, how do I sell it to the patient?
And like, what do you mean sell it?
You know, and then the other side of that was like, how do we
(14:55):
get patient compliance? I'm like, OK, so let's just be
clear about what that that is. And and you know, Joe and I have
come up with a model of five pillars that we can draw from.
So one of those is agreements. And it's just like, well, the
thing about compliance goes awaywhen the two of you have come to
(15:18):
an agreement about, you know, understanding where we are and
how we're moving forward and that we keep coming back to that
agreement to check in with each other.
Because that then also gives us some way of dealing with the
whole, Oh my gosh, am I meeting my patients expectations and
stressing about it. And one person was just like,
oh, and what could you do? And they're looking at me
(15:41):
blankly and like, and then I went, I could ask them.
I'm like, yes, we could ask them, you know, And it's just
like, I mean, it sounds self-evident once you bring it
out, but it isn't part of commonpractice.
So it's, it sounds really simple.
It's, it's not, it needs a little bit of framing, but once
(16:04):
you actually see it, see the frame, you realize, oh, there is
actually a bunch of stuff I could do here that takes away
some of this issue of expectations and compliance once
you know how to frame it. So that's one of them.
Definitely no Joe. I was so tempted to bring your
(16:26):
relative in as a cameo then. Oh, that was like me.
Very me very chewing it over but.
I that was like the lockdown baby.
Yeah, I thought that, yeah, brilliant, but that.
Was my mother looking for her spare key?
I'd say, well, I'm sorry to havenot drawn her in really, but if
it had been the delivery driver,I definitely would.
So if you've got your composure,have you got any more to add?
(16:48):
To I'm stillwell within my good moment, I don't think well, my
mom just came in then to illustrate unpredictability and
flexibility in the moment so. I wanted to come in and make
some sort of unnecessary demand on you that could then we could,
we could, we could reflect on, but now go ahead.
She's the next physio if that helps.
(17:08):
If you could have bought her, Yeah, Yeah.
Sorry. I was half listening to what
Joanne said, so apologies if I repeat what some she just said.
But I did. Yeah.
The moment where Joanne said, oh, we could ask.
I do quite a bit of work with our more junior physio at the
moment. And so many times when we're
talking, I'll say to him, well, have you asked the patient, you
(17:32):
know, could you bring that awkward thing out in the open?
So things like or you know, we've had a couple of treatments
and I'm not quite sure if I'm doing what the patient expected
me to do. I'm not quite sure if we're
heading in the right direction. And nine times out of 10 my
answer is, well, you know, why don't you talk about it?
(17:53):
And for communicators, it amazesme how infrequently that is our
go to. I suspect socially, you know, if
we're with a friend and there's a situation we think, oh, I'm
not quite sure what's going on here, I'm just going to ask
them. I suspect personality wise,
we're probably likely to be the one in the friendship to go.
(18:15):
Should we just talk about this thing?
But when you're in that funny, slightly weird physio patient,
expert recipient role, we seem to get a bit in our heads about
that. Like we, we can't just suddenly
bring something out in the open and, and, and deal with it here.
We, we seem to think that assumption is going to get us
(18:37):
through on both sides. I mean, poor patient.
It's not their job to, to normalise things.
They're in an unusual situation.And really the onus is on us to
to show the past, show that there is a pathway through and
say, come on, we can talk about this.
You know, if this doesn't feel right or, you know, I'm getting
a sense that you might be feeling this.
(18:57):
Are you? The answer might be yes or no.
But it's it's so much more helpful just to bring stuff into
conversation, which for me really is what coaching is.
Getting the cards on the table and various analogies that I
overuse people, I think this is they kind of do under negotiate
various elements of their lives.But one of the things that I
(19:18):
think this revealed to me when observing some of the same same
things, Of course, it'd be a really uncomfortable bandwagon
for me to say, oh, you have observed all the same things
done absolutely nothing about it.
So of course there's plenty of of stuff that you guys have
touched on that I think is absolutely necessary and
something that you've joined thedots on that that me and others
might have spotted morsels of, but not the whole the whole
(19:39):
sandwich. But I think in this instance,
people definitely, it's almost like the the shallowness of the,
the consent that they've assumedhas kind of been been realized
by this. They kind of, if you've not laid
out what this is going to look like, what it is you're getting
them to consent for, what it is you're getting them to pay for
(20:01):
then. Actually, there is a duty of
care for you to lean into that discomfort a little bit because
actually we, we as we've you know, you, you've rightly
identified if anything, that's the thing that's going to unlock
that discomfort. It's not that you've got to then
hold it and live with it. It's actually that's going to
resolve it. But even if it didn't, that's
tough luck. Really.
That is an important part of howand what you've consented them
for and, and to have missed thatchapter, that is a failure of
(20:24):
education. But it's also a really
interesting thing about that power dynamic and about that,
that that was, we've constantly fallen into this sort of healer
thing and that we need to be that who says, and when did you
agree to that? When did you consent to be a
healer? When did you to be consent to be
put in that box? And you probably didn't.
(20:44):
And so let's negotiate let's on individual levels as well as
then thinking consciously about how we might market ourselves
and we might behave where we might focus our attention and
our own coaching to try and resolve it.
So anyway, I'm going off on one but feel free.
To disagree, there's a good .0, sorry.
Gay Joe. Are you sure it's a good point,
Jack? Because I think people raise
(21:06):
this point all the time when talking about coaching.
People will often say, but my patient just tells me they just
want to be fixed. They don't want to have a chat
with me and they just want theirpain to go away.
And that's completely understandable.
Therefore, I think it's even more important in the early
stages to, as you say, lay your cards out, negotiate how this
process is going to be because it's, you know, there's a lot of
(21:28):
talk of just give the patient what they want.
That isn't coaching. Coaching is having a
conversation early around, OK, what are you expecting?
OK, here's my thoughts on that. What are your thoughts on that?
And now I even before I years before I discovered coaching, I
would frequently start my consultations explaining how I
(21:50):
generally work, just in case. That's completely opposite to
the expectation, which quite often it was, and it didn't mean
we didn't get to a really good place.
But had I not had that conversation first, we'd have
been straight into awkwardness and misunderstanding.
Give you an example of a patientI've had recently So the patient
arrived and I knew she was goingto be a complex chronic patient,
(22:12):
but the reality was so much morethan what you could possibly
have expected. And part way through the
evaluation, which is about the time that a therapist starts to
feel really anxious about, am I going to get anything done here?
Because, yeah, I mean, I haven't.
We all had that. How am I going to do this and
get a treatment done? And it's just about that time.
(22:35):
And this is what we want to helppeople recognize.
When you get that awkward momentand you feel it, that's the time
at which you go, OK, so here's the situation.
I've gleaned this information. But what I can see is that in
order to be able to take us in the best possible direction, I'm
going to have to spend some timegetting the rest of the
(22:56):
information. Is that OK with you that we
spend our time doing that today so we can have a really clear
plan for when we get back together again?
And then the patient gets a choice, you know, and there's an
agreement there. So we don't get to the end of
the session going, oh, the patient's not going to be happy,
(23:17):
or haven't, you know, done XY and Z?
It's just like I've actually laid it right out there on the
table because I know that yes, Icould do the patient pleasing
thing and not really complete the examination to the extent I
need to in order to do somethingthinking it's going to make them
happy. Or I can lay it on the table and
(23:40):
say this is actually going to beimportant because you actually
want something to change. So for us to be able to make the
best, you know, well, I'm not going to say decision, but, you
know, you've gathered all the information.
This is the most likely route tohelp us get there.
(24:01):
Given that we've already talked about what it is that they're
actually wanting, what's meaningful, They get a chance to
go, actually, yeah, I'd rather spend this time because I
actually now understand what's going on much more.
I never did that before. And so again, it's like
recognizing those moments and then going, oh, that's one of
(24:22):
those moments. This is probably a transparency
moment in order to get agreementso that we both know where we
are and the patient's not wondering.
So are we going to get to the treatment part?
And the therapist is going, are they thinking we're going to get
to the treatment part? But I can't really do that
ethically because we haven't actually got all the facts and
the whole thing can just go away.
(24:44):
Again, it's not like it's the the thing with all of this stuff
that Joe and I are putting together, all of it can be
actioned straight away. It's just understanding what
that what someone once describedas a squeaky butt moment that
comes along, knowing what that is and then realizing, oh, this
is one of those moments. I have it for that.
(25:07):
And if you if you he set the scene and set that context and
it just decreases the likelihoodof it happening, but also gives
you that ability to re referenceto what that was.
And so remember the corridor conversations that I were taught
some of the most powerful thingsI was taught by mentors,
including Mike Stewart was a bigearly influence in my career.
Still great friend and mentor ofmine, but just just observed by
(25:31):
Long Corridor that we had Margate Hospital, if anyone
knows it right, we're walking down there and I just happened
to be picking my patient up not long behind Mike and just
noticing that I was walking along just literally just
showing the patient where they were going.
Whereas Mike was already deep inconversation about various
things and it weren't just aboutIce Breakers.
At first I thought it was, but Inoticed that whatever he might
(25:53):
have been ice breaking about, whether it be the weather or the
football shirt they might have been wearing at some point in
that interaction. He said.
Today's bit of a finding out session, want to understand as
much about you as I can and understand what you're after and
what you're looking for because then we can try and work on that
together. And a version of that was then
described amongst all, all otherthings.
I'm describing this corridors like a mile long, aren't I now?
(26:15):
But I'm just meaning like amongst it.
You always ask that and it was just that that was obviously
genius and I didn't know until Istarted doing it and realizing
that he's just explained what they're going to do and why
they're going to do it. Because the more he can
understand and the more he understands their goals, then
that's exactly what the whole interaction is.
And so, and then here between the curtains, the fact that he
would then at some points take stock, especially the complexity
(26:37):
of the patients you can imagine Mike Stewart was seeing.
So he was able to take stock andsay, well, remember, I just, I
really want to understand as much as I can about you and
stuff and we're going to move towards that.
But if I had a magic wand with me, of course I'd be looking to
fix it. But that's not really why, you
know, you're here. And you could see him able to
use his humour because he was able to back reference to the
context that he'd set. And and then whilst, you know,
it's only one example, it's, it's something that people take
(26:59):
for granted and that learning the skills that will help to set
that foundation is best noticed.I didn't notice till years later
that that is actually in in a coaching framework.
And I think it took for me to beworking with and observing your
work, Joe Turner, for me to realise.
Aha, yeah. That the, the best
exemplification of that, if you needed to put a name on it or,
(27:21):
or have a category on it is, is coaching, which I can so imagine
and understand why you guys would collaborate on on
something like this, because it's it is such a crying out
need as you, as you've describedit.
Can you give me insights into, Ialmost feel like you might have
been spoke for choice, right? Because this is such a big
topic. So I'm fascinated by what then
(27:42):
Coaching Unpeeled is and what itdoes and things like that.
So can you give me a sense of the product, the course and what
that entails for me? Yeah, you're absolutely right,
Jack. We, we looked at it and thought,
OK, we are not looking to train people to be coaches.
We're trying to, we need to try and sift out the bits that are
(28:05):
most relevant to clinical practice and can be most
immediately used in a practical sense.
And Joanne and I have both done some additional training beyond
our foundational training with the ICF, the International
Coaching Federation. And they have quite a
comprehensive set of, they call them core competencies.
(28:30):
Now within that, there's too much for what we wanted to do.
But we took those kind of as a baseline and started talking
about them, had a great big document where we tried to work
out which bits were actually directly relevant to a clinical
scenario. And then we gradually distilled
these down into five, what we call pillars.
(28:51):
Joanne, if it's OK with you, I will name them.
I don't think that's giving too much away.
So our five pillars are partnering agreements,
anchoring, evoking awareness andsomething called GSC which is
gathering, sifting and oh, what's the C Joanne confirming
and. You just really wanted it to be
(29:12):
5 and not 8, didn't you? You've made #5A3 I love.
That good enough time for it? Brilliant.
You just really didn't want it to be 8, OK?
So the structure is around thosefive pillars and the coaching
and field course is based aroundan initial weekend where we will
essentially teach those pillars that with constant, you know,
(29:34):
role play and breakout rooms andyou know, straight into what
clinical scenario does this relate to go and have a practice
at it. And then there's a three-week
period for people to go and practice in real time with their
patients and then come back and have some mentoring.
But we've felt really strongly that the, the practice time and
(29:54):
the the, the not role play, but the breakout room stuff is so
important because when you hear the principles, it sounds simple
and it is simple. But what isn't simple is those
words coming out of your mouth in the clinic room because
they're different to the ones that normally come out and the
responses that come back are different.
And the skill is in learning to navigate that scenario.
(30:17):
So we were really keen that it wasn't just us teaching a load
of stuff and then hoping that people manage to put that to
some practical use with their patients and not being able to
follow up with them. Yeah, brilliant.
I can. I can so see how that would
start to piece together. Joanne, what do you feel is it
is about coaching unpeeled that makes it so unique?
(30:39):
Because it obviously, I mean, tome it sounds so unique in every
which way. But I just wonder if you could
feel because you've you've taught and still continue to
teach so many different things in different ways.
But what is it about this that makes it a unique offering?
I think that people are banding about the idea of coaching and
trying to bring it into therapies.
But The thing is that between the two of us, the actual number
(31:02):
of hours of really, really intimately working with, with
therapists, working with clinicians, hearing their
struggles, we, we know them inside out.
These are our people and we basically bringing instead of
accidentally stumbling on, I caninsight like you stumbled on
(31:24):
with Mike Jack, instead of just hoping to stumble on something,
what we're doing is saying, sure, let's make these things
actually explicit for you. This is a tool kit.
It's not this onerous new body of work that's going to be
really hard to understand. Far from it.
It's like, OK, let's talk about when it feels hard because
(31:45):
you're all going to come up withthe same the same, it feels hard
then we know about that. So both of us have spent a lot
of time coaching and a lot of time knowing that framework.
But we also have an absolutely huge, you know, I've been
working with clinches for 25 years now and Joe's been doing
(32:09):
all her deep work with her one to one coaching and you know,
all of those kinds of things. So I don't think that there's
anybody who could probably bringthis in the way that we do.
But also with the the educators mind, how do we make this easy
for you to actually take it intoclinic tomorrow?
(32:30):
It needs to be not too much brain, easy to put into place,
needs practice, but can it change your practice tomorrow?
That's what we're after. And these things can be, they're
very powerful experiences because often from what I've
(32:51):
observed, including in myself, that that some of the perception
that we've ended up complying with and the expectation that
we've not been resetting with our patients is sometimes based
on a sort of deep rooted sense of, of duty of sometimes
(33:11):
underlying insecurities based onsometimes very specific things,
sometimes really broad things. And so I just look on at the
format you've created, which hasthis really lovely hybrid model
that then doesn't think that this is a set of things that can
be perfectly acquired by a few teaching modules or webinars,
right? It's something that needs to be
(33:33):
grounded and practised, but thenalso can be enhanced by the
natural communities that you both create within your other
content that will enhance and allow for that practice work to,
to, to develop. I think that that that's where I
can see how thoughtful it's being designed is that it's
taking the best of both models because the, the downside of in
(33:54):
person is, is purely the onerousnature of the time it would take
to then create what it might be a network of 4-5 weekends.
I mean, this is a subject matterthat is rich enough to
absolutely fill that sort of time frame and be valuable at
that. But of course, the investment
both in time and money for that would be would be challenging
for every party. So instead, it's about trying to
(34:15):
recognize right. How can we make sure we ground
it appropriately in the in the first instance, but then enhance
it through that community work and, and and using virtual
tools. So it's, it's such an such an
exciting proposition. Before I forget to because I'd
be guilty of I'm going to pull this up.
It's going to go all over our faces there.
Look, this is AQR code. I need to whip your phones out
your pockets if you're watching this now, because you'll only
(34:37):
forget, just as I nearly forgot to put it up on screen.
Scan this QR code and have a little look at coaching unpeeled
because it's something that I needn't take that off yet.
It is something that is so likely to be for you,
potentially for colleagues. It's something that if it's not
for you now, it might be in the future.
(34:57):
I need you to go away and reflect on some of those
awkward, uncomfortable moments that we've just described.
I will put some links in the show notes in the descriptions
when this goes out on socials. We've ended up streaming live
amusingly, because I thought I'dscheduled it on this software
and it's gone live, but that means it's gone out on social.
So you're lucky few that have seen it on social media, then
that's great. But it will go through on the
(35:18):
podcast feeds next week as as isscheduled on our weekly show.
And so if you if you've been lucky enough to get it on the
early feeds, then you might wantto snap up the tickets to to the
event. Just tell us a little bit about
when it is a certain and the because it's a cohort type
system, isn't it? But when's your when's?
When's it start off? Our first weekend is June the
(35:40):
7th and 8th and then the follow up one is 3 weeks after that.
I can't remember the exact date but a Saturday three weeks after
that is the second one but it's all on that.
If they scan that QR code, the details are all there.
Yeah, I just think I can, I can already think about the ways in
which that work will be shattered about and enhanced
(36:01):
through various different channels of of support as well.
I know that when I think about how this is compatible with the
the ME Hubbers as well as then other elements and nature within
offers your matters audience as well, it just crosses over so,
so brilliantly and I'm so glad to see you guys getting
together. I know that I've been watching.
(36:21):
I don't know why you. I just want to assure people
that if you're going to collaborate into professionally,
you don't have to share a name. So you 2 have done it.
Claire Mitchell and Claire Robertson have just done it.
It's like it's just a weird thing where it has to be exactly
the same name, but it's me and Jack March, I suppose you could
say as well, isn't it? We're both, we're both jacks.
So yeah, I. Think you just just proved your
(36:42):
point. You do have to have the same
name, so just don't bother collaborating with anyone that
hasn't got the same name as you 3. 3 success stories there, so
maybe that's what it doesn't mean.
We're not square. We're not.
We're not square at. All though it doesn't work.
You're having a lot of fun with the the citrus fruits, aren't
you, with this unpeeled? I'm really enjoying for for
branding so. I wanted that to be an answer to
(37:04):
what makes it different. Oh, nice.
Yeah, of course. It's definitely.
So anything, anything else that I've I've forgotten to mention
or you want to mention before wewrap up?
No, I think I need to go and find my mother's door key.
So. It's just that the point of this
is that clinicians are good people who do deserve to
(37:27):
actually feel OK about themselves.
And so many people are not feeling OK but not realizing
they don't have to feel that way.
And that is a really explicit kind of reason for Joe and I to
be doing doing coaching on field.
That's a really good. That's a lovely place for us to
(37:48):
finish, isn't it? Yeah.
It doesn't have to feel this way.
And you deserve better than to be torturing yourself over these
over these expectations. So, yeah, thank you.
And thank you for the work you're doing.
I'm so excited to see how it allgoes.
Please do TuneIn that QR code just quickly before I go.
But then we're just going to smile and wave as the music
plays. So bye, folks.
See you later.
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